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| yamamoto | #startmeeting networking_midonet | 07:06 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 07:06:41 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamamoto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 07:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 07:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:06 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_midonet' | 07:06 |
| yamamoto | #topic agenda | 07:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:07 | |
| yamamoto | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NetworkingMidoNet | 07:07 |
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| yamamoto | #topic Announcements | 07:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:07 | |
| yamamoto | no announcements from me | 07:07 |
| yamamoto | #topic Bugs | 07:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:07 | |
| yamamoto | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/devstack/+bug/1582119 gate blocker bug | 07:08 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1582119 in devstack "networking-midonet jobs are broken due to Q_L3_ENABLED "cleanup"" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to YAMAMOTO Takashi (yamamoto) | 07:08 |
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| yamamoto | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316660/ a revert of the problematic devstack patch | 07:08 |
| yamamoto | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316992/ attempt to workaround in midonet side | 07:09 |
| yamamoto | i'll continue bug deputy | 07:09 |
| yamamoto | #topic Open Discussion | 07:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_midonet)" | 07:09 | |
| yamamoto | i'd like to propose to make this meeting every two weeks | 07:10 |
| yamamoto | as there isn't much activity | 07:10 |
| yamamoto | i'll submit irc-meetings patch later. | 07:10 |
| * yamamoto waiting for a few minutes before closing the meeting | 07:11 | |
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| yamamoto | bye! | 07:16 |
| yamamoto | #endmeeting | 07:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 07:16 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 07:16:58 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 07:16 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.html | 07:17 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.txt | 07:17 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_midonet/2016/networking_midonet.2016-05-17-07.06.log.html | 07:17 |
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| Qiming | #startmeeting senlin | 13:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 13:00:28 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'senlin' | 13:00 |
| Qiming | evening | 13:00 |
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| elynn | Hi~ | 13:00 |
| haiwei_ | hi | 13:00 |
| lixinhui | Hi | 13:01 |
| yanyanhu | o/ | 13:01 |
| Qiming | oops | 13:01 |
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| Qiming | if you have item to add to the agenda | 13:02 |
| Qiming | please use this link: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | as usual, let's check the etherpad first | 13:02 |
| Qiming | #topic netwon work items | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "netwon work items (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:02 | |
| Qiming | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-newton-workitems | 13:02 |
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| Qiming | blockers for scalability test | 13:03 |
| Qiming | with experience sharing from CMCC on CCTC, I believe we can do something more | 13:03 |
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| Qiming | the general suggestion is to have separate rabbitmq instances | 13:04 |
| Qiming | I'm removing that item for now | 13:04 |
| lixinhui | what okay | 13:04 |
| lixinhui | Okay, Qiming | 13:04 |
| Qiming | tempest testing | 13:05 |
| yanyanhu | ethan was working on it last week | 13:05 |
| Qiming | elynn has commited patch bug the gate is actively rejecting it | 13:05 |
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| elynn | I'm maintain an etherpad for tests we need | 13:05 |
| elynn | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-tempest-plugin | 13:05 |
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| elynn | and also submit a patch for enable gate for it. | 13:06 |
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| elynn | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316544 | 13:06 |
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| elynn | Just saw your comment, will change it later :) | 13:06 |
| elynn | And will continure to add rest tests, then negative tests. | 13:07 |
| elynn | That's it. | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | jenkins_jobs.errors.JenkinsJobsException: Failed to find suitable template named '{pipeline}-senlin-dsvm-tempest-{test_type}-{backend}{job-suffix}' | 13:07 |
| Qiming | nice | 13:07 |
| Qiming | seems the job name is no good | 13:07 |
| Qiming | I don't know what qualifies a good job name | 13:07 |
| Qiming | but having cloud_backend name injected into that string is weird | 13:07 |
| Qiming | we should have named the dummy backend just 'dummy' instead of 'openstack_test' | 13:07 |
| yanyanhu | looks like the job template definition is incorrect | 13:07 |
| Qiming | it is bad name | 13:07 |
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| elynn | {backend] | 13:08 |
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| elynn | oops , should change ] to } | 13:08 |
| Qiming | other than that, I'd also suggest we remove {backend} from the job name template | 13:08 |
| yanyanhu | right | 13:08 |
| elynn | Why? | 13:09 |
| elynn | if remove {backend} from name | 13:09 |
| Qiming | I don't think we need to do each test type using two or more backend drivers | 13:09 |
| elynn | How do we pass the backend parameter? | 13:09 |
| Qiming | for api_test, it will only use the dummy driver, that is fine | 13:09 |
| yanyanhu | hi, ethan, maybe we can tell it based on the test-type :) | 13:10 |
| Qiming | for scenario test, we may need to do things with real drivers | 13:10 |
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| yanyanhu | e.g. for api, default backend is dummy/openstack_test | 13:10 |
| Qiming | yup | 13:10 |
| elynn | okay , I get it. | 13:10 |
| elynn | Then I just judge the test_type and decide what kind of backend to use. | 13:10 |
| Qiming | each test type has a goal, we don't need too many combinations | 13:10 |
| Qiming | sounds a life saver | 13:11 |
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| Qiming | so from etherpad, I can remove line 6-8, right? | 13:11 |
| Qiming | just leave line 9 there, and remove it when gate is up | 13:11 |
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| yanyanhu | yes, I think so | 13:12 |
| elynn | yes | 13:12 |
| Qiming | xinhui, do we have news on stress tests? | 13:13 |
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| lixinhui | These days | 13:14 |
| lixinhui | I am packing everything together | 13:14 |
| lixinhui | I prepare use the same test bed for a demo for integration between VIO and Senlin | 13:14 |
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| lixinhui | after that, we can continue the stress things | 13:15 |
| Qiming | you mean you are building an end-to-end solution demo? | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | based on the first item just discussed | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | just first step | 13:15 |
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| Qiming | okay | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | use ansible to deoloy Senlin | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | with VIO together | 13:15 |
| Qiming | would love to see how that works | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | sure | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | still some problems | 13:15 |
| lixinhui | for the network settings in VIO env | 13:16 |
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| Qiming | ask questions on IRC then | 13:16 |
| lixinhui | okay | 13:16 |
| lixinhui | thanks in advance | 13:16 |
| Qiming | okay, ask your colleagues, not on IRC | 13:16 |
| Qiming | :) | 13:16 |
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| lixinhui | both I think :) | 13:16 |
| Qiming | np | 13:16 |
| Qiming | Rally support ? | 13:16 |
| Qiming | patch #301522 is there for some time now | 13:16 |
| yanyanhu | yes, didn't get time to work on it last week | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | need to pick it up | 13:17 |
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| Qiming | yes, it has been more than 40 days | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | hope in next week, push a new patchset | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | yes | 13:17 |
| Qiming | you mean after May 24? | 13:17 |
| yanyanhu | nope, the weeking from tomorrow :) | 13:18 |
| yanyanhu | week | 13:18 |
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| Qiming | just tried to clarify | 13:18 |
| Qiming | cool | 13:18 |
| Qiming | Health | 13:18 |
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| Qiming | neutron bug is still there, lixinhui ? | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | yes, Qiming | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | today, I checked the code | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | will discuss with Kobi | 13:19 |
| Qiming | would be nice you paste the bug link, we need to revisit it now and then | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | who is the neutron core | 13:19 |
| Qiming | okay | 13:19 |
| lixinhui | okay | 13:19 |
| Qiming | btw, I just spent this afternoon on the HA etherpad | 13:20 |
| Qiming | Please read, comment, fix, add ... | 13:20 |
| Qiming | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-ha-recover | 13:20 |
| lixinhui | okay | 13:20 |
| lixinhui | will read | 13:21 |
| lixinhui | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1548774 | 13:21 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1548774 in neutron "LBaas V2: operating_status of 'dead' member is always online with Healthmonitor" [Undecided,Confirmed] - Assigned to Yang Yu (yuyangbj) | 13:21 |
| lixinhui | this one | 13:21 |
| lixinhui | healthmonitor does not update the status of member in v | 13:21 |
| lixinhui | 2 | 13:21 |
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| Qiming | that is the critical feature we need | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | documentation | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | we have completed the migration of senlin API doc from WADL to the new format | 13:22 |
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| Qiming | thx yanyan for the help | 13:23 |
| yanyanhu | my pleasure :) | 13:23 |
| Qiming | it still has some room for improvement for sure, but the content, look-and-feel are all in good shape | 13:23 |
| Qiming | em .. seems I need to write some other articles ... | 13:24 |
| Qiming | haiwei_, are you working on improving the container profile? | 13:25 |
| Qiming | or, do you believe we can leave it as is | 13:26 |
| Qiming | errhh... seems he is asleep? | 13:26 |
| Qiming | engine | 13:26 |
| haiwei_ | I am thinking about shall we wait for Higgins or do by ourselves? | 13:26 |
| Qiming | I'm signing up on the NODE_CREATE, NODE_DELETE rework | 13:27 |
| Qiming | haiwei_, if you are asking my suggesion | 13:27 |
| yanyanhu | I guess it will take some time for higgins to provide basic support for container management | 13:27 |
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| Qiming | I think we should do it using docker directly | 13:27 |
| Qiming | when higgins does provide an API to use, we add that as another driver | 13:28 |
| haiwei_ | then we need to have a discuss on how to implement it, the impact to the existing code | 13:28 |
| Qiming | my current feeling is that it will take a looooong time to get higgins up | 13:29 |
| haiwei_ | I will rework the spec file | 13:29 |
| Qiming | okay, looking forward to a revision | 13:29 |
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| Qiming | line 32-38 was added by chuck | 13:29 |
| yanyanhu | agree. But hope higgins API can become stable ASAP, especially those interfaces for basic container management, e.g. CUDR | 13:30 |
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| haiwei_ | by using docker api directly, most things are in my mind, still some issues are not sure | 13:30 |
| Qiming | how about we work and discuss | 13:30 |
| haiwei_ | yes, we can discuss in the spec patch | 13:31 |
| Qiming | you know, there are many verbs for patchs: commit, abandon, merge and revert | 13:31 |
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| haiwei_ | but if the new change will affect the existing API or database, shouldn't we be very careful? | 13:33 |
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| Qiming | that is for sure | 13:34 |
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| Qiming | we are not changing the existing API | 13:35 |
| haiwei_ | maybe move to a new version 1.1 | 13:35 |
| Qiming | we already have micro-version implemented | 13:35 |
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| Qiming | let's see if we do need to change the API | 13:36 |
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| Qiming | if we do, we will need to ensure we NEVER break user land | 13:36 |
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| haiwei_ | sure | 13:37 |
| Qiming | there are always a million items on the todo list, what we can do is to prioritize, work on them one by one | 13:37 |
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| Qiming | okay, that is all for things on etherpad | 13:39 |
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| Qiming | #topic open discussions | 13:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussions (Meeting topic: senlin)" | 13:40 | |
| Qiming | anything you want to discuss? | 13:40 |
| yanyanhu | nope from me | 13:41 |
| elynn | nothing from me. | 13:41 |
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| lixinhui | No for me | 13:41 |
| haiwei_ | from the mail list, tacker seems doing auto-scaling things | 13:41 |
| Qiming | yes, I saw that | 13:42 |
| haiwei_ | but they don't want to use seniln currently | 13:42 |
| Qiming | em, I have left some comments there | 13:42 |
| Qiming | but we cannot force people to do this or that | 13:42 |
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| haiwei_ | tacker has relationship to nfv, I will spend some time on it | 13:43 |
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| haiwei_ | yes, want to learn their need first | 13:43 |
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| haiwei_ | that is all from me | 13:43 |
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| Qiming | tbh, I really don't like the fact that people tend to ignore suggestions from "outsiders" | 13:44 |
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| Qiming | we have learned our lessons in a hard way, and now they want to experience that again ... | 13:45 |
| Qiming | and ... if you are watching mailing list | 13:45 |
| Qiming | magnum wants to reinvent a cluster management thing | 13:45 |
| yanyanhu | yes, saw that mail | 13:46 |
| haiwei_ | have the link now? | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | actually, senlin can help them achieve their goal | 13:46 |
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| Qiming | in a much easier way | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | in easier way | 13:46 |
| yanyanhu | yea | 13:46 |
| Qiming | with less effort | 13:46 |
| elynn | Which mail? | 13:47 |
| Qiming | anyway, we did what we had to do | 13:47 |
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| lixinhui | Agree | 13:47 |
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| Qiming | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095044.html | 13:47 |
| Qiming | okay, if nothing else from you | 13:48 |
| Qiming | let's call it a day | 13:48 |
| elynn | thanks | 13:48 |
| Qiming | thanks for joining | 13:48 |
| Qiming | #endmeeting | 13:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 13:48 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 13:48:46 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 13:48 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.html | 13:48 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.txt | 13:48 |
| yanyanhu | thanks | 13:48 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2016/senlin.2016-05-17-13.00.log.html | 13:48 |
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| saggi | Hey all | 14:00 |
| saggi | #startmeeting smaug | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 14:01:15 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is saggi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'smaug' | 14:01 |
| yuval | Hey | 14:01 |
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| gampel | hi | 14:01 |
| zhonghua-lee | hi | 14:01 |
| saggi | Are we waiting for anyone? | 14:01 |
| saggi | Does anyone know if yinwei wanted to attend? | 14:02 |
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| xiangxinyong | hi | 14:02 |
| xiangxinyong | she is sick | 14:02 |
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| saggi | xiangxinyong: I've heard I've spoken with her today and she was feeling fine. But she probably doesn't want to over exert herself. | 14:03 |
| saggi | So lets start | 14:03 |
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| saggi | #topic meeting time | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "meeting time (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 14:03 | |
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| saggi | We want to make the meeting weekly but in different times. | 14:04 |
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| chenying__ | hi | 14:04 |
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| saggi | I've sent an email to the mailing list but I didn't get a lot of responses. | 14:04 |
| xiangxinyong | i think the time is very suitable for the eastern side | 14:05 |
| saggi | Does anyone have any objection to the suggestion of: | 14:05 |
| saggi | - 15:00 UTC for west, biweekly-even | 14:05 |
| saggi | - 09:00 UTC for east, biweekly-odd | 14:05 |
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| xiangxinyong | +1 | 14:05 |
| saggi | We can always change it later | 14:05 |
| chenying__ | +1 | 14:05 |
| zhonghua-lee | looks good to me | 14:05 |
| chenying__ | I think it is good. | 14:05 |
| gampel | sound good to me | 14:05 |
| xiangxinyong | :) | 14:05 |
| yuval | +1 | 14:05 |
| saggi | Then I'll submit a patch to change it. | 14:05 |
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| xiangxinyong | thanks saggi | 14:06 |
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| saggi | Hopefully next week we'll have more west hemisphere people in here :) | 14:06 |
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| saggi | #action send patch to update meeting time (saggi) | 14:06 |
| saggi | Is the bot asleep? | 14:07 |
| gampel | :) | 14:07 |
| xiangxinyong | ^-^ | 14:07 |
| saggi | #info test | 14:07 |
| saggi | Let's hope this is getting logged | 14:07 |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi: :) | 14:08 |
| saggi | #topic Status updates | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Status updates (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 14:08 | |
| saggi | He's just being selective | 14:08 |
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| saggi | Anyway, I just want to know what is everyone in china working on and to make sure no one is blocked. | 14:09 |
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| saggi | nothing? | 14:10 |
| xiangxinyong | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/smaug | 14:10 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: you could take a look at this | 14:10 |
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| gampel | chenying can you share about Design and development of replication plug-in | 14:11 |
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| chenying__ | I am working on the Integration Test on the master branch. It does not work now. Some patches need be merged. | 14:11 |
| saggi | xiangxinyong: thanks, but not everyone has a task there. | 14:12 |
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| xiangxinyong | yeah. we will work on the important items first | 14:12 |
| xiangxinyong | do you agree? | 14:12 |
| saggi | chenying__: What patches? | 14:12 |
| saggi | xiangxinyong: yes. | 14:12 |
| gampel | which patches , you mean end to end integration fullstack test | 14:12 |
| chenying__ | luobin and hurong's plugins and workflow patches. | 14:13 |
| chenying__ | Yes | 14:13 |
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| gampel | they are waiting for fixes on the comments | 14:13 |
| chenying__ | eran some fullstack test are developmented by other gays. | 14:13 |
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| xiangxinyong | yeah | 14:14 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/317209 | 14:14 |
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| chenying__ | After I finish the integration test on the master, These fullstack test can be submited. | 14:14 |
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| chenying__ | Eran do you think I sould start working on Design and development of replication plug-in? | 14:15 |
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| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317209/ | 14:15 |
| gampel | did you submit the CI job ? | 14:15 |
| chenying__ | The important item task xiangxinyong list have not finished yes. | 14:15 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/312008/ | 14:15 |
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| chenying__ | did you submit the CI job ? I have finished. I will submit later. | 14:16 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/314925/ | 14:16 |
| xiangxinyong | sorry, the above patches are about the fullstack | 14:16 |
| gampel | xiangxinyong: this are all the fullstack test , but what rae the test that are missing for the integration | 14:17 |
| gampel | "luobin and hurong's plugins and workflow patches." | 14:17 |
| chenying__ | I have listed some on our irc channel. | 14:17 |
| saggi | yuval: What is the link to the trello board you opened. | 14:17 |
| saggi | ? | 14:18 |
| yuval | https://trello.com/b/Sudr4fKT | 14:18 |
| yuval | You can join in this link: | 14:18 |
| yuval | https://trello.com/invite/b/Sudr4fKT/826e3dcffc7259b1447d4ecc448c1a45/smaug | 14:18 |
| chenying__ | OK I will join it. | 14:19 |
| xiangxinyong | i have joined it | 14:20 |
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| chenying__ | operation engine patches also need be reviewed and merged. | 14:21 |
| xiangxinyong | gampel: understood | 14:21 |
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| saggi | I'm still not sure what the best way to organize it is. | 14:22 |
| saggi | I'll think about it. | 14:22 |
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| saggi | But we need a better way to coordinate. | 14:23 |
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| chenying__ | As I konw, replication API in cinder only be implemented for admin. They are designing API for tenant in N. | 14:23 |
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| saggi | chenying__: I've spoken with them in the summit. And our name is even in the spec. They will give us a service token that will allow us to do some admin action on behalf of the tenant. | 14:24 |
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| zhonghua-lee | saggi:trello is a good tool | 14:25 |
| gampel | chenying_: what are the reviews that are blocking you ? | 14:25 |
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| xiangxinyong | saggi: what about using the etherpad to coordinate? | 14:25 |
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| saggi | xiangxinyong: The history on etherpad is a bit obtuse so it's hard to track changes. | 14:26 |
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| xiangxinyong | saggi: ok | 14:26 |
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| saggi | We tried to use it but we noticed that someone might just make a big change and it will be hard to figure out why\what | 14:27 |
| saggi | #topic Task flow improvements | 14:27 |
| saggi | We've spoken about it in the last meeting. We understand the the current patches are a bit hard to review and we are working on it. | 14:27 |
| saggi | But apart from the deleted code we do need to know if there are any technical objections. | 14:27 |
| saggi | Please try and ignore the deleted code and concentrate on the actual changes. | 14:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Task flow improvements (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 14:27 | |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: if we plan to use trello, as you said, should find a organization way. it just a tool | 14:27 |
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| saggi | zhonghua-lee: I know | 14:28 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: :) | 14:28 |
| gampel | I agree lets see if some one have comment on the design , Yuval can you share the spec | 14:29 |
| saggi | zhonghua-lee: If you or anyone has any suggestions or can point me to a good trello board to get inspiration from please send me an email. | 14:29 |
| saggi | It' | 14:29 |
| yuval | saggi: https://trello.com/inspiringboards | 14:29 |
| chenying__ | <saggi>: I will focus on the design progress in cinder. And reivew the spec. | 14:29 |
| saggi | It's important to note that some of the changes are as a result from use cases I got during the summit. | 14:29 |
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| saggi | chenying__: Look up the replication spec. I've commented on it but see if there are things you want to ask them about it. | 14:30 |
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| gampel | are there any technical objections to the new TaskFlow workflow design by Yuval | 14:30 |
| zhonghua-lee | saggi: ok | 14:30 |
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| chenying__ | saggi: OK | 14:31 |
| xiangxinyong | saggi: perhaps we can discuss trello in the mailing list | 14:31 |
| saggi | xiangxinyong: sure | 14:31 |
| saggi | xiangxinyong: good idea | 14:31 |
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| zhonghua-lee | xiangxinyong: +1 | 14:32 |
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| xiangxinyong | Thanks. i can do it tomorrow | 14:32 |
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| xiangxinyong | swift guys are using the trello | 14:33 |
| zhonghua-lee | xiangxinyong: a good coordination tool. | 14:33 |
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| xiangxinyong | yeah | 14:34 |
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| chenying__ | new TaskFlow workflow design, I think it is good. There are maybe lots of plugins refactoring work to do. | 14:34 |
| saggi | Will the changes introduced in yuval's patches effect testing? | 14:35 |
| gampel | are there any technical objections to the new TaskFlow/workflow design by Yuval ? As saggi said we will fix the patch delete ... | 14:35 |
| gampel | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310386/7/smaug/services/protection/resource_flow.py | 14:35 |
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| gampel | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316669/ | 14:35 |
| gampel | i think that it is critical that we agree on the design and get comments from all the team | 14:36 |
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| xiangxinyong | gampel: i agree with you. it seems like a big change | 14:37 |
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| gampel | It is a critical bottleneck , that will allow us to merge all the protection plugin | 14:38 |
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| gampel | I think that the design is good and we should push it in as early as possible , to avoid extra work later | 14:38 |
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| chenying__ | I think the changes may affect integration testing. Because lots of plugins need be refactored. could we do the integration test using the old design. | 14:39 |
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| chenying__ | ? | 14:39 |
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| gampel | All the new code is done by yuval and can be merged togther | 14:39 |
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| saggi | chenying__: Does the integration test get that deep in the code? | 14:40 |
| yuval | chenying__: do integration tests with the old design benefit us? | 14:40 |
| gampel | the fullstack is testing the API layer | 14:40 |
| gampel | we will merge the new design only once it does not break the fullstack | 14:40 |
| yuval | Anyhow, we should pass the spec updates first | 14:41 |
| gampel | we could merge the fullstack and then yuval could run local integration here and we will merge the code only when it pass fullstack | 14:41 |
| chenying__ | I also think it is better using new design. If we can refactor the plugins ASAP. But now portect action does not work in the master branch yes. | 14:42 |
| saggi | yuval: +1 | 14:42 |
| xiangxinyong | maybe we can merge these patches firstly. https://review.openstack.org/#/q/owner:luobin_smile%2540163.com+status:open | 14:42 |
| chenying__ | we could merge the fullstack and then yuval could run local integration It is a good idea. | 14:42 |
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| yuval | what patches are missing for the fullstack? | 14:43 |
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| yuval | chenying__: can you give the list? | 14:43 |
| chenying__ | It is a good idea. If yuval can do the fullstack test in his local. | 14:43 |
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| chenying__ | yuval: what list? fullstack test or patches? | 14:44 |
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| yuval | chenying__: the patches required for the fullstack tests to start running | 14:44 |
| yuval | chenying__: what patches block the full stack | 14:44 |
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| chenying__ | wait a minute | 14:45 |
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| gampel | I think this is the list ? am I correct chenying__ ?https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ | 14:45 |
| gampel | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316674/ | 14:45 |
| gampel | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/303355/ | 14:45 |
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| xiangxinyong | open engine service | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/309898/ | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/282263/ | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310394/ | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | restore workflow | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c303277 | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c316674 | 14:46 |
| xiangxinyong | https://review.openstack.org/#/c307737 | 14:46 |
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| xiangxinyong | i think these patches are important for the fullstack test | 14:46 |
| chenying__ | The resource graph walker listener https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/316674/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/303355/ | 14:46 |
| yuval | chenying__: right. thanks. everybody please make sure you review these 3 patches\ | 14:47 |
| chenying__ | I think portect action need these patches. | 14:47 |
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| gampel | lets start with fullstack only to the protection service | 14:47 |
| chenying__ | If we want to test restore action we need more. | 14:47 |
| gampel | this one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/287572/ need to be updated tomorrow by smile-luobin | 14:48 |
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| xiangxinyong | gampel: we will tell him tomorrow | 14:48 |
| chenying__ | I will ask luobin to update tomorrow. | 14:48 |
| chenying__ | But sometime I also can not find him. | 14:49 |
| saggi | Also, everyone, please email me patches that you think are ready for final review or are blocking your tasks. I will try and get to those first. | 14:49 |
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| saggi | Stuff get lost in the clutter. | 14:49 |
| gampel | Ok but anyway please review the spec we coudl merge it anyway if there are no comments | 14:49 |
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| gampel | Ok we will try to focus on this 3 tomorrow , then we can merge the fullstack patches | 14:50 |
| yuval | Updated Trello with the patches to review | 14:50 |
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| saggi | #topic open discussion | 14:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: smaug)" | 14:51 | |
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| saggi | Anything else before we finish for today? | 14:51 |
| yuval | Yes, if anyone didn't join the Trello, please do | 14:51 |
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| chenying__ | Ok thanks I think if we have fullstack job, we can start lots of optimization work. | 14:51 |
| yuval | https://trello.com/invite/b/Sudr4fKT/826e3dcffc7259b1447d4ecc448c1a45/smaug | 14:52 |
| chenying__ | I have joined it. | 14:53 |
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| saggi | OK, than thanks everyone. hopefully in two weeks in an earlier time. | 14:54 |
| saggi | #endmeeting | 14:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 14:55:03 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.html | 14:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.txt | 14:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/smaug/2016/smaug.2016-05-17-14.01.log.html | 14:55 |
| gampel | bye | 14:55 |
| xiangxinyong | 88 | 14:55 |
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| chenying__ | bye | 14:55 |
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| gampel | thx | 14:56 |
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| tung_doan | h | 15:41 |
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| thirax | hi! | 15:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | #startmeeting tacker | 16:00 |
| dkushwaha_ | o/ | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 16:00:45 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sridhar_ram. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tacker' | 16:00 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Roll Call | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:00 | |
| vishwanathj | o/ | 16:01 |
| twm2016 | o/ | 16:01 |
| trozet | o/ | 16:01 |
| sripriya | o/ | 16:01 |
| dkushwaha_ | o/ | 16:01 |
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| tbh | o/ | 16:01 |
| tung_doan | o/ | 16:01 |
| janki91 | o/ | 16:01 |
| manikanta_tadi | o/ | 16:01 |
| sridhar_ram | Howdy folks ! | 16:01 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: brucet: are you here ? | 16:01 |
| sridhar_ram | lets start... | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Agenda | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:02 | |
| sridhar_ram | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Tacker#Meeting_May_17.2C_2016 | 16:02 |
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| sridhar_ram | main topic is alarm based monitoring & scaling... | 16:02 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: thanks | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | we can take the rest if we wrap up early on this subject.. | 16:03 |
| sridhar_ram | #topic Alarm based VDU Monitoring & Scaling | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Alarm based VDU Monitoring & Scaling (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:03 | |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: are you here ? | 16:03 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, hi | 16:03 |
| bobh | o/ | 16:03 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: bobh: hi ! | 16:04 |
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| sridhar_ram | First order of business to clarify the user stories for this features .. | 16:04 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: can you please help to set the parameters of the end goal here ? | 16:04 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: I think there is a long-term goal and multiple short-term goals to get there | 16:05 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: the long-term goal is to be able to use ceilometer alarms to trigger auto-scaling of VDUs | 16:05 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: I think the components of that need to be (a) a ceilometer monitoring plugin | 16:05 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: (b) a way to take advantage of auto-scaling support in heat | 16:06 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: and another important issue is how to model all of this in TOSCA | 16:06 |
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| s3wong | hello | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: +1 on bring TOSCA template to articulate these features.. | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: thanks... | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | I was thinking even one level abstract..w/o bringing Ceilometer and Heat-Scaling... | 16:07 |
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| sridhar_ram | .. as we are designing TOSCA templates for these features... | 16:08 |
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| sridhar_ram | fyi, see this http://paste.openstack.org/show/497374/ | 16:09 |
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| sridhar_ram | I like the idea of splitting this work into two specs.. (a) alarm based monitoring and (b) VDU scaling - both auto using (a) and manual | 16:10 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: the scaling policy might need to be bundled into a monitoring_policy with action:scale | 16:10 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: +1 | 16:10 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: KanagarajM: brucet_: can you please chime on splitting the spec ? | 16:11 |
| KanagarajM | sure | 16:11 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: Hi sridhar, can I mention to manual/autoscaling in my spec as some actions? | 16:12 |
| KanagarajM | unless we want to give control to user for what ever reason, to trigger the scaling, | 16:12 |
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| brucet_ | Splitting manual and auto??? | 16:12 |
| brucet_ | Bad idea | 16:12 |
| KanagarajM | scaling could be part of moniotring policy | 16:12 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: sure, we can discuss abt which is the correct place for scaling policy.. I was thinking we could allow manual scaling even WITHOUT monitoring | 16:12 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: agree | 16:12 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: the scaling mechanism should be independent of manual/automatic | 16:13 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: No, I would leave any scaling related things out of your spec.. as there is too much for one spec level content | 16:13 |
| KanagarajM | if that is the case, then scaling_policy could be outside and moniroing could refer it | 16:13 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: no, splitting alarm-based monitoring and any scaling related policy + actions | 16:13 |
| brucet_ | How is that differentbthan what eists now? | 16:14 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, i would like to keep considering both while design the both the features though both could be splitted into two | 16:14 |
| sridhar_ram | that way we have clear separation of end goal here and also developer ownership | 16:14 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: +2, absolutely... | 16:14 |
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| sridhar_ram | the design should be cohorent across these two specs.. they need to leverage each other.. | 16:15 |
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| KanagarajM | yes, perfect ! | 16:15 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: today we have mushed these two non-trivial functions into one spec... it is getting hard to see a clear picture | 16:16 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: +2 | 16:16 |
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| KanagarajM | we could carry out the both the spec simultanesous, after agreeing up on the dependecy among them, like meta-data settings, | 16:16 |
| brucet_ | Triggers and actions need to be part of one overall architecture | 16:17 |
| brucet_ | I can't say what that means in terms of specs | 16:17 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: sure.. scaling spec can test manual scaling until alarm based spec is ready | 16:17 |
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| brucet_ | Monitoring creates triggers / events | 16:17 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sure. | 16:18 |
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| brucet_ | Scaling is an example of an action based on that event | 16:18 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: as you see in the http://paste.openstack.org/show/497374/ the first spec - alarm based monitoring driver should focus on VDU monitoring and triggering existing actions (respawn, log) | 16:18 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: what do you think ? | 16:18 |
| brucet_ | That one approach / architecture that cn be used | 16:19 |
| brucet_ | There are others | 16:19 |
| KanagarajM | brucet_, yes, in alarm-monitor-driver, scale_in/out could be different actions, in addition to the exsting actions | 16:19 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: =1 | 16:19 |
| sridhar_ram | +1 | 16:19 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: I still think it is possible to mention to scaling as a policy in monitoring driver | 16:19 |
| KanagarajM | when scale_xxx, scaling policy needs to given as params | 16:19 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: monitoring diver can support multiple policies | 16:20 |
| brucet_ | I think we need one overall architecture for Tacker based events and actions | 16:20 |
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| KanagarajM | this will hold good with existing approach | 16:20 |
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| brucet_ | A heat based event / action implementation should be part of that architecture | 16:21 |
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| brucet_ | A Tcker monitoring driver based event / action implementation should be another part | 16:21 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: from implementation point of view, my understanding is you'll have a lot to cover for alarm / ceilometer based monitoring | 16:21 |
| brucet_ | Then the two mechanisms can interact | 16:21 |
| KanagarajM | brucet_, yes, and as we decided to split the scaling and monirotring, triggering in heat needs to be via resource-signal command | 16:21 |
| brucet_ | Not necessarily | 16:22 |
| KanagarajM | instead of heat webhook | 16:22 |
| brucet_ | Ah.... | 16:22 |
| brucet_ | Both are valid | 16:22 |
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| KanagarajM | the reason is, tacker creates the scaling stack, monitoring stack, so tacker could directly siganl it | 16:22 |
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| KanagarajM | no need to depends on the webhook url. | 16:23 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: what actions can be mentioned in my spec, sridhar? | 16:23 |
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| brucet_ | Heat webhook is a valid option for signaling events. So is triggers within a Heat stack itself | 16:23 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: for now "log" action makes most sense... | 16:24 |
| tung_doan | some actions i can see are log, repspawn, scaling.... | 16:24 |
| KanagarajM | brucet_, while tacker can directly signal the scaling stack, its better option | 16:24 |
| brucet_ | Both are valid options | 16:24 |
| KanagarajM | rather than using webhook | 16:24 |
| brucet_ | IMHO, we should not create an architecture that precludes either | 16:24 |
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| KanagarajM | brucet_, both are valid approach, but i prefer the siganling over resource-signal | 16:24 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: this suggestion is purely a divide and conquer.. once you are done w/ alarm based monitoring, you can continue to participate in the scaling related work items... | 16:25 |
| KanagarajM | as tacker is the owner of those stacks, its perfect option to resource-signal | 16:25 |
| brucet_ | If we agree that both approaches are valid, then we don't need to debate which is "better" | 16:25 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: Ok... but it still can support scaling if possible, right? | 16:26 |
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| brucet_ | sridhar_ram: I suggest we focus on overall architecture first. Then break up the specs | 16:26 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: No, lets leave the scaling to the 2nd spec... | 16:26 |
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| KanagarajM | brucet_, while desiging, its better to go with the right option, i believe. | 16:27 |
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| KanagarajM | brucet_, sure. for spliting, i guess, the last patch set could be direclty splited into two | 16:27 |
| KanagarajM | one for scaling and another for alarm-monitor | 16:28 |
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| sridhar_ram | Folks - I'm trying to put - on the fly - an etherpad to use TOSCA as the way to describe the scope for these two specs... | 16:28 |
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| sridhar_ram | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tacker-alarm-scaling-template | 16:28 |
| brucet_ | My main point here is that I think we need an overall arch for Monitoring / Events and Actions (scaleup, scaledown, etc) | 16:28 |
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| sridhar_ram | As you see in the etherpad.. alarm mon spec should focus on TOSCA related to alaram based monitors | 16:31 |
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| sridhar_ram | translating that to heat ceilometer .. and based on the callback invoke the Action | 16:31 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yes, by adding scale specific param | 16:32 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: skipping scaling in this first iteration will help to keep the focus and get this piece correctly | 16:32 |
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| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: Ok... | 16:33 |
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| sridhar_ram | bobh: what do you think on a split like this ? | 16:33 |
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| bobh | sridhar_ram: looks good to me | 16:34 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, i feel that we could take them simultaneuosly | 16:35 |
| bobh | sridhar_ram: the monitors should be independent of the actions, yet be able to invoke whatever actions are provided by the interface | 16:35 |
| KanagarajM | as the depenecies are spoted out already | 16:35 |
| KanagarajM | bobh, yes, that is the way i felt | 16:35 |
| sridhar_ram | bobh: +1 | 16:35 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: we sure can start the spec in parallel.. | 16:36 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: however, for scaling it will be good to go "behind" alarm-based monitor | 16:36 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: all this doesn't stop any of us from coding away ;-) | 16:36 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, i guess, we wanted to to give it for manual trigger from user | 16:37 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: yes, that would be testable earlier w/o alarm-based monitor | 16:37 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yes. | 16:38 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: we can split the patchsets coming out of scaling into two | 16:38 |
| sridhar_ram | (a) manual scaling - no dependency | 16:38 |
| sridhar_ram | (b) alarm based mon trigger - has dependency on alarm work items | 16:38 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: any concerns ? | 16:38 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, let us choos the appraoch on how to create the alarm via heat or direclty? | 16:39 |
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| brucet_ | sridhar_ram: Will there be a time to discuss the alternative arch slides I put together?? | 16:39 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: (b) look good to me | 16:39 |
| sripriya | KanagarajM: i had the same question, interested to know if tacker needs to talk to ceilometer directly or we just invoke heat to create resources | 16:40 |
| tung_doan | brucet_: yes, I hope | 16:40 |
| KanagarajM | via heat gives one advantage , tomorrow if we want to auto-scale direclty via heat without tacker comes in while scaling | 16:40 |
| KanagarajM | sripriya, yes. its better to decide the option :) | 16:41 |
| sridhar_ram | brucet_: the current approach does involve ceilometer and heat | 16:41 |
| brucet_ | OK. I'll go now | 16:41 |
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| sripriya | KanagarajM: i believe tacker would still need to control some of ceilometer alarms to trigger non heat actions as well | 16:42 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: tung_doan: It will be nice to get some clarity there for sure... direct ceilometer vs heat ceilometer resources | 16:42 |
| sridhar_ram | what are the pros & cons ? | 16:42 |
| KanagarajM | sripriya, we are taking complete control on the triggering part in tacker, but it would help tomorrow to enable auto-scaling if we opt | 16:43 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, in the last patch-set i have mentioned the options | 16:43 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, these* | 16:43 |
| KanagarajM | once we decide the option, then alarm-monitor is clear now i believe | 16:44 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: do you've any preference on direct ceilometer vs heat based ceilometer ? | 16:44 |
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| vishwanathj | would there be any impact to end users/operators depending on the approach? | 16:45 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: I think direct ceilometer is suitable | 16:45 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: we can setup many policies.. | 16:45 |
| KanagarajM | And noe more, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562/5/specs/newton/alarm-based-monitoring-driver.rst line 154 is mandatory, on either via heat or ceilometer | 16:45 |
| KanagarajM | one* | 16:46 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: you mean, more that one alarm per VDU and different actions for each of them ? | 16:47 |
| sridhar_ram | *more than | 16:47 |
| sripriya | KanagaraM: for auto scaling action it makes perfect sense to leave it as a heat resource, i'm thinking if an user wants to use ceilometer based alarms to perform custom actions without heat dependency | 16:47 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: right, sridhar | 16:47 |
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| KanagarajM | tung_doan, all these options are vailable in heat ceilometer resource type as well | 16:47 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: that's interesting.. I like it (as an operator :) | 16:47 |
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| sridhar_ram | okay.. here is what I propose... | 16:48 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: yeah, it is more flexible | 16:48 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, another reason, i would think of is, most of the orchestration, if we levarage from heat, it will reduce the depenecy of the more services (ceiloemeter) in the tacker | 16:48 |
| sridhar_ram | lets use the https://review.openstack.org/#/c/306562 for alarm based monitoring.. I'm assuming tung_doan you are going to be the lead author / developer | 16:48 |
| sripriya | tung_doan: sridhar_ram: we will need to monitor network resources given that we have SFC coming in, neutron ports can be monitored for existance | 16:49 |
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| KanagarajM | otherwiseguy, both tacker and heat would does the same and it will be of redunt things across | 16:49 |
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| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: can you start a new BP and spec for tacker scaling with a scope for both auto & manual ? | 16:50 |
| tung_doan | sripriya: right.. that is what I want to do with alarm based monitoring driver | 16:50 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sure, i will strip of scaling things from current spec | 16:50 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, and submit a new spec on it | 16:50 |
| sridhar_ram | sripriya: agree, I really feel we are scratching the surface on various feature combinations here .. this area is surely a multi cycle evolution | 16:51 |
| sridhar_ram | we are just getting started :) | 16:51 |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yes, but its always better to leavarge things from existing things instead re-invest the wheels :) | 16:51 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: the quesiton is you have any concern with alarm-based monitoring driver in yor spec? | 16:51 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: I'd also like to discuss Senlin within that scope for the auto-scaling spec.. but that is for another day | 16:51 |
| tung_doan | KanagarajM: the quesiton is you have any concern with alarm-based monitoring driver in yor spec? | 16:52 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: no, in fact you should bring back your contents from the earlier revision and make it focused on alarm | 16:52 |
| KanagarajM | tung_doan, yes, how the alarm wil be created | 16:53 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: It will be nice to document both the options in your spec and select one as the way forward... | 16:54 |
| * sridhar_ram notes about 5 mins left | 16:54 | |
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| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, tung_doan if we decied to go directly use ceilometer, my only concern is, we are adding depency on ceilometer in taker while it can be done via heat. (reduce mainatance & givens more option for auto-scaling in futyre) | 16:54 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sure. let us take forward from specs. i felt its good discussion | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: I've similar concerns but I'd like to hear any functional advantage that tung_doan pointed out.. we can take this up in tung_doan's spec | 16:55 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, sure. | 16:55 |
| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: again, are you fine w/ this approach to focus your spec on alarm based monitoring ? | 16:56 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: np. I will try | 16:56 |
| sridhar_ram | great.. ! | 16:57 |
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| KanagarajM | tung_doan, kindly don't mind, i have update the last patch set to set the ground for the todays meeting | 16:57 |
| tung_doan | I will update my spec ASAP | 16:57 |
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| sridhar_ram | I wish brucet was here to desc his alternative approach ... how different from what we have penciled in there | 16:57 |
| KanagarajM | tung_doan, which helped. | 16:58 |
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| sridhar_ram | tung_doan: thanks sooooo much for staying late.. close to 2am there | 16:58 |
| sridhar_ram | KanagarajM: same for you too .. late there as well | 16:58 |
| tung_doan | sridhar_ram: np. :) | 16:59 |
| KanagarajM | tung_doan, great !!! | 16:59 |
| sridhar_ram | lets wrap for today.. | 16:59 |
| KanagarajM | sridhar_ram, yeah, but nope :) | 16:59 |
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| sridhar_ram | #topic Open Discussion | 16:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: tacker)" | 16:59 | |
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| sridhar_ram | bye everyone! | 16:59 |
| KanagarajM | bye | 16:59 |
| sripriya | thanks all | 16:59 |
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| sridhar_ram | #endmeeting | 16:59 |
| s3wong | bye | 16:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 16:59:57 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tacker/2016/tacker.2016-05-17-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
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| mmedvede | #startmeeting third-party | 17:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 17:02:17 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mmedvede. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 17:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 17:02 |
| mmedvede | anyone around for third-party working group meeting? | 17:02 |
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| ja3 | moin moin | 17:03 |
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| mmedvede | hi ja3 | 17:04 |
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| ja3 | anything happnin? | 17:05 |
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| mmedvede | ja3: no, there isn't really an agenda for today. Let's see if more people show up | 17:06 |
| ja3 | same agenda as last time, I'm guessing? | 17:06 |
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| mmedvede | ja3: do you have anything to discuss, otherwise short meeting | 17:07 |
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| ja3 | short meeting then I guess. | 17:07 |
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| ja3 | we're triggering off of nova now, but dealing with our own issues still | 17:08 |
| ja3 | i.e. not voting. | 17:08 |
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| mmedvede | ja3: what kind of issues? | 17:08 |
| asselin_ | hi | 17:08 |
| mmedvede | stability in general? | 17:08 |
| mmedvede | hey asselin_ | 17:08 |
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| mmedvede | asselin_: so I am thinking to end the meeting unless you have something | 17:11 |
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| ja3 | nope. nobody here but us chickens. | 17:12 |
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| mmedvede | #endmeeting | 17:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:13 | |
| asselin_ | nothing to add today | 17:13 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 17:13:36 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:13 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.html | 17:13 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.txt | 17:13 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2016/third_party.2016-05-17-17.02.log.html | 17:13 |
| mmedvede | thanks for showing up, ja3, asselin_ | 17:14 |
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| ja3 | our issues are, in part, exposing implementation bugs due to stress/timing. they're gating us from scaling up further. | 17:14 |
| ja3 | basically they cause random-looking failures, from tempest's point of view. | 17:14 |
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| mmedvede | ja3: stability problems, they are hardest to debug | 17:14 |
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| mmedvede | ja3: if you find something, please let me know. We also sometimes have random-looking failures start to pop up | 17:16 |
| ja3 | well, yes and no. z tends to be better than average at FFDC. the first hurdle was getting past some people's "oh that must be a tempest/python/openstack/NIH problem". I think that bridge has been crossed now. | 17:16 |
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| ja3 | if they really are upstream and not our plugin, sure. remember we have a much larger curtain since we're not libvirt-based, and a whole crowd of people (components) behind the curtain. kvm is a very different flow. | 17:17 |
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| mmedvede | right, it is probably different underlying problem | 17:18 |
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| lbragstad | o/ | 17:59 |
| raildo | _o_ | 17:59 |
| rderose | o/ | 18:00 |
| roxanaghe_ | o/ | 18:00 |
| dolphm | \o | 18:00 |
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| henrynash | bonsoir, mes amis | 18:00 |
| notmorgan | o/ | 18:00 |
| notmorgan | \o | 18:00 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:00 |
| notmorgan | \o/ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | #startmeeting keystone | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 18:00:57 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevemar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
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| jaugustine | Woo! | 18:01 |
| stevemar | courtesy ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, crinkle, claudiub, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, edmondsw, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, jorge_munoz, knikolla, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, MaxPC, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rodrigods, rderose, roxanaghe, samleon, samueldmq, shaleh, stevemar, tjcocozz, tsymanczyk, topol, vivekd, wanghong, xek | 18:01 |
| rodrigods | o/ | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Ayuh | 18:01 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| stevemar | jaugustine: that's the kind of excitement we need to see! | 18:01 |
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| amakarov | o/ | 18:01 |
| gagehugo | _o/ | 18:01 |
| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| crinkle | o/ | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
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| stevemar | critical mass achieved, let's start | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | #topci release update | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | #topic release update | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "release update (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| stevemar | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | we are currently in week R20, it counts down to the end of the release, so 20 weeks left | 18:02 |
| ayoung | CODE FREEZE! | 18:03 |
| ayoung | sorry | 18:03 |
| stevemar | we should be cleaning up any old issues from mitaka and preparing for newton-1 | 18:03 |
| stevemar | hahaha | 18:03 |
| stevemar | no where near that time yet :) | 18:03 |
| stevemar | but the next deadline is R18, in 2 weeks | 18:03 |
| stevemar | there are 2 things happening that week | 18:03 |
| ayoung | M1? | 18:03 |
| stevemar | newton-1 milestone driver | 18:03 |
| stevemar | yep | 18:03 |
| edtubill | o/ | 18:03 |
| ayoung | Er..N1? | 18:04 |
| ayoung | did the M mean Milestone or Mitake? | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | and that's the spec *proposal* freeze week | 18:04 |
| ayoung | Mitaka | 18:04 |
| rderose | o/ | 18:04 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: it's N1 this time around, the letter changes | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | Noice | 18:04 |
| stevemar | so in 2 weeks: newton-1 driver, and spec *proposal* freeze | 18:04 |
| stevemar | the latter meaning, if you want a spec for newton, propose it soon! | 18:05 |
| stevemar | it doesn't have to merge in 2 weeks, just be proposed and a reviewable state | 18:05 |
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| stevemar | any questions about dates? | 18:05 |
| dolphm | when is code freeze | 18:06 |
| stevemar | dolphm: all dates are here: http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html | 18:06 |
| stevemar | dolphm: keystone is following the general feature freeze, which is R5 | 18:06 |
| stevemar | in 15 weeks | 18:06 |
| stevemar | dolphm: good? | 18:07 |
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| * topol just rsvp'd for the midcycle.. dont forget | 18:07 | |
| dolphm | ++ | 18:07 |
| stevemar | if anyone has questions, bug me in -keystone | 18:07 |
| stevemar | topol: on that note... | 18:08 |
| stevemar | #topic midcycle update | 18:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "midcycle update (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:08 | |
| stevemar | notmorgan: ^ | 18:08 |
| ayoung | anyone want to got rockclimbing in Yosemite either before or after the midcycle? | 18:08 |
| notmorgan | #link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1To2qx90Am4hcYdgaqTkRosfNOzxr26M0GiahhiWgAJU/viewform?c=0&w=1 | 18:08 |
| notmorgan | RSVP Form ^ | 18:08 |
| topol | notmorgan is there a recommended hotel | 18:08 |
| notmorgan | Sign up. we have 35 slots. | 18:08 |
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| notmorgan | topol: no, please feel free to update the wiki/ether pad if you have recommendations... | 18:08 |
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| notmorgan | topol: sec getting those links too | 18:09 |
| samueldmq | hi all | 18:09 |
| notmorgan | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints/KeystoneNewtonSprint | 18:09 |
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| notmorgan | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-newton-midcycle | 18:09 |
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| notmorgan | the RSVP form will be used as the authoritative source of "who is coming" for planning purposes | 18:09 |
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| rderose | is this the official rsvp form: | 18:10 |
| rderose | #link https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1To2qx90Am4hcYdgaqTkRosfNOzxr26M0GiahhiWgAJU/viewform?c=0&w=1 | 18:10 |
| rderose | ? | 18:10 |
| notmorgan | rderose: yes. | 18:10 |
| dolphm | rderose: yes | 18:10 |
| rderose | cool | 18:10 |
| henrynash | done | 18:10 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: we need a slot count down | 18:11 |
| dolphm | 35? | 18:11 |
| notmorgan | please take a second and thank Cisco for hosting us *and* cburgess for helping set that up | 18:11 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: 35 spots. | 18:11 |
| henrynash | ayoung: one way of reducing the attendee count…. | 18:11 |
| lbragstad | cburgess thanks! | 18:11 |
| dolphm | dstanek: oh, you mean visibility into remaining number of slots? | 18:11 |
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| jamielennox | yea, also hotel recomentdation would be useful | 18:11 |
| dstanek | dolphm: yes, exactly | 18:12 |
| dolphm | there are ** 23 ** slots remaining for the midcycle | 18:12 |
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| notmorgan | since i know next to nothing about San Jose area... [sorry], I'm going to ask folks who are more familiar for hotel recommendations | 18:12 |
| ayoung | Stay in San Francisco and take Caltrains? | 18:12 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: long ride, but doable. | 18:12 |
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| dolphm | there's a couple hotels within a decent walking distance, but we'll probably need a few cars anyway, given it's san jose | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | https://goo.gl/3gS8GQ | 18:13 |
| notmorgan | dolphm: yes. | 18:13 |
| gyee | you can take VTA | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | nearby hotels ^ | 18:13 |
| gyee | I think VTA cover that area | 18:13 |
| ijw | Earwigging, here, but I've done that ride and unless you like hours on the train it's not good | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | thanks lbragstad | 18:13 |
| gyee | Caltrain is like an hour away from SF | 18:14 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: please add that to the wiki. | 18:14 |
| lbragstad | notmorgan ok | 18:14 |
| ijw | You can Caltrail to and VTA from Mountain View - it's not impossible - but that's another half an hour or so depending on here specifically you'll be | 18:14 |
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| gyee | Levi stadium is nearby so there are a bunch of hotels there | 18:14 |
| roxanaghe_ | ijw, I'm doing Caltrain everyday - it's not that bad :) | 18:14 |
| stevemar | hyatt's are usually nice, and nearby there | 18:14 |
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| gyee | Aloft? | 18:15 |
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| dstanek | i think staying close would be much easier | 18:15 |
| ayoung | Navy Lodge Moffett If you are DoD | 18:15 |
| notmorgan | i added wiki link to the RSVP form | 18:15 |
| ijw | There's a Hyatt House on First that comes recommended, the Crowne Plaza, and the Hilton Garnden Inn and Larkspur Landing, all in the reasonable vicinity | 18:15 |
| henrynash | ayoung: The hanger at Moffet if you are NASA | 18:15 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: doens't google also rent that out now? :P | 18:15 |
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| notmorgan | ok anyway | 18:15 |
| notmorgan | thats the info | 18:15 |
| ayoung | henrynash, there is an Armory Floor not too far away if you are Army National Guard. I used to drill out of there. | 18:16 |
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| topol | I believe I stayed at the Santa Clara Marriott. Its nice | 18:16 |
| stevemar | thanks ijw and notmorgan | 18:16 |
| henrynash | topol: used to be next to Great America…. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | gyee, dibs on your couch. | 18:16 |
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| gyee | Casino M8trix :-) | 18:16 |
| notmorgan | anyone have an issue with making the results of RSVP public? | 18:16 |
| henrynash | (that was not a Trump reference) | 18:17 |
| notmorgan | i can add it to the wiki as well. | 18:17 |
| henrynash | notmorgan: fine by me | 18:17 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: nope | 18:17 |
| notmorgan | will do | 18:17 |
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| lbragstad | dstanek ++ | 18:17 |
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| stevemar | bug notmorga if folks have questions :P | 18:19 |
| notmorgan | #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qTupqEyYwXnNnO-sW0kRhh-I9hvpPHA7QAuewXnw6AA/edit?usp=sharing | 18:19 |
| stevemar | (fine fine, i'll be around too) | 18:19 |
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| stevemar | on to more contentious topics! | 18:19 |
| stevemar | #topic Specify ID for Project or domain creation | 18:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specify ID for Project or domain creation (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:19 | |
| stevemar | amakarov ^ | 18:19 |
| stevemar | agrebennikov is missing :( | 18:19 |
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| amakarov | Thanks | 18:20 |
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| amakarov | The question is: why do we unconditionally overwrite project ID on creation? | 18:20 |
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| amakarov | Is there some reason behind it or is it a bug? | 18:20 |
| lbragstad | amakarov as in you can't create a project with a project ID that you pass in? | 18:21 |
| samueldmq | I think that's what we do everywhere else ? | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | change question -why should you ever specify an id up front? | 18:21 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: ++ | 18:21 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: ++ | 18:21 |
| gyee | I think the argument was IDs are supposed to be globally unique | 18:21 |
| rderose | ++ | 18:21 |
| amakarov | jamielennox: the actual case: multiDC env | 18:21 |
| rderose | gyee: yeah, and we want to control that | 18:22 |
| dstanek | i don't like that we can do that in some places | 18:22 |
| samueldmq | gyee: good point | 18:22 |
| dolphm | amakarov: to guarantee that project IDs are globally unique and immutable, we don't accept user input for them. project names are mutable, not globally unique, and user-defined | 18:22 |
| notmorgan | so, i dislike specifying it - if we are doing this it can be ADMIN only | 18:22 |
| amakarov | if we create projects and roles with the same ID - the tokens are valid across DC | 18:22 |
| notmorgan | and it still must conform to automatic such as uuid | 18:22 |
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| gyee | to play the devil's advocate, we've already allowed "shadow" users, why not shadow other things? | 18:22 |
| notmorgan | so there is one other reason this is important | 18:23 |
| dolphm | if we all understand the consequences on federation and whatnot, i'm open to breaking that convention | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | gyee: shadow users doen't let you pick the user's id | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | but shadow users doesn't allow a user to specify the id of their user | 18:23 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: so no big advantage besides knowing it ahead of time (and it stil can fail at cretion time!) | 18:23 |
| notmorgan | in some cases you need to restore a project after deletion | 18:23 |
| amakarov | notmorgan: we still ok with that in v2 | 18:23 |
| gyee | jamielennox, at least to agree on a global ID | 18:23 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: default domain is special, and i always treat it as such | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | gyee: no, it creates an id for you as does project | 18:23 |
| lbragstad | amakarov what's the use case for specifying an ID for a project? | 18:23 |
| gyee | right, with a specific algorithm | 18:23 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: ^ 2 reasons | 18:23 |
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| rderose | lbragstad: ++ | 18:23 |
| jamielennox | gyee: no, uuid | 18:24 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: 1) restore a deleted project | 18:24 |
| ayoung | this is going to be like Nova hooks isn't it, where someone brings up an old feature and the core immediately deprecates it? | 18:24 |
| notmorgan | and maintain the id. | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | well, excpet V2 is already deprecated | 18:24 |
| notmorgan | 2) same id across deployments (keystones) | 18:24 |
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| notmorgan | i would not make it a "normal" action anyone can do. | 18:24 |
| notmorgan | in either case. | 18:24 |
| amakarov | lbragstad: if you need to authZ in different clouds with a single token | 18:24 |
| lbragstad | in order for 2 to work you'd have to have the identity backend shared anyway | 18:24 |
| ayoung | notmorgan ++ | 18:24 |
| raildo | ayoung: v2 is deprecated | 18:24 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: if you did then it may be a security issue | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | raildo, doesn't change the fact that Nova core hates me. | 18:25 |
| raildo | I think we have good use cases to make this happen | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: exactly, it, if anyting is an Admin-only thing | 18:25 |
| raildo | ayoung: I know :( | 18:25 |
| ayoung | I have an abandonded spec | 18:25 |
| rderose | notmorgan: why do you need the same id across deployments? | 18:25 |
| samueldmq | lbragstad: ++ | 18:25 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: cloud admin? | 18:25 |
| gyee | jamielennox, I see, but they are still using their native ID for auth, no? | 18:25 |
| amakarov | rderose: ^^ my answer to lbragstad | 18:25 |
| ayoung | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/203852/ | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | rderose: a lot of deployers want the same project id in multiple AZs that are managed by different keystones | 18:25 |
| notmorgan | rderose: not my choice/reasoning, just echoing the reasoning | 18:25 |
| rderose | notmorgan: ++ | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | rderose: the "restore a project" reason is why i support it | 18:26 |
| jamielennox | i wouldn't even say this is an admin only thing, if your use case is restoring a deleted project then at best it's a keystone-manage feature | 18:26 |
| dstanek | amakarov: can't you do that in a more federated approach? | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | rderose: and that is a break-glass scenario | 18:26 |
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| notmorgan | but should be doable via the API not DB manipulation | 18:26 |
| amakarov | dstanek: no, as federation is currently in demo state :) | 18:26 |
| gyee | demo state!? | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: i'd make it a cloud-admin thing for sure. | 18:26 |
| dstanek | amakarov: ? | 18:26 |
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| notmorgan | dstanek: if i was implementing it. not a domain admin thing | 18:26 |
| notmorgan | vvtletuvnjejfltljiigeubducbbkiitevfbdhkgnedg | 18:27 |
| raildo | notmorgan: via API ++ | 18:27 |
| rderose | notmorgan: but if you create a project, get the id, then you can do the restore use case? right? why would you need to specify the project id in that case? | 18:27 |
| stevemar | notmorgan: lol | 18:27 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, Ubikey failuer\\re? | 18:27 |
| amakarov | gyee, dstanek: it lacks, for example, grops shadowing | 18:27 |
| stevemar | ayoung: yes | 18:27 |
| * ayoung imagines Q-Bert | 18:27 | |
| samueldmq | but please don't say it's demo state, people worked hard on it | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | and still do | 18:27 |
| dstanek | amakarov: i think it would be better to make federation fit this, rather than do this one-off thing | 18:27 |
| lbragstad | dstanek ++ | 18:28 |
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| stevemar | `make federation great again` | 18:28 |
| amakarov | unfortunately agrebennikov is away, but he exposed it very clear on design session | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: yes. i need to fix that | 18:28 |
| lbragstad | stevemar -- | 18:28 |
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| notmorgan | ayoung: i keep bumping the OTP button. | 18:28 |
| notmorgan | when i move the laptop | 18:28 |
| ayoung | Heh | 18:28 |
| jamielennox | agreed, i can see the break-glass case of restore a project via -manage, but for cross DC you are needing to do some sort of federation | 18:28 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, 3 more of those and Ithink I'll be able to crack the seed. | 18:29 |
| dstanek | amakarov: can you get together a list of things the current federation implemenation is missing? | 18:29 |
| lbragstad | yeah - each kesytone across DCs is going to require access to the same identity backend (which naturally fits the federation story) | 18:29 |
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| rderose | lbragstad: agree, but is there a big demand for this? | 18:30 |
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| rderose | I mean, do we want to give this a priority now? | 18:30 |
| amakarov | dstanek: I agree about that approach in theory, though we can solve many problems easily and I don't see why we can't do that right away | 18:30 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: good thing i don't use that OTP for anything | 18:30 |
| amakarov | What will it break? | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | amakarov: the wrong solution right away isn't necessarily good | 18:30 |
| lbragstad | i think it's more of losing control | 18:30 |
| amakarov | dstanek: why is it wrong? | 18:30 |
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| dstanek | amakarov: i dislike specifying ids | 18:31 |
| rderose | ++ | 18:31 |
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| dstanek | i would be -2 if users could do it, but i'm still -1 for cloud admins | 18:31 |
| dstanek | i like jamielennox's idea of a manage command if that is actually needed | 18:31 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: sure. | 18:32 |
| amakarov | dstanek: ok, what is the suggested way to create/use projects based on LDAP groups? | 18:32 |
| ayoung | dstanek, its an RBAC thing regardless | 18:32 |
| samueldmq | what guarantee keystone will accept the ID the user passes ? | 18:32 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: a break glass method that isn't "edit the DB" is what i look for in solving the "restore" a project/domain | 18:32 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: i'd support that. | 18:32 |
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| henrynash | dtsanek, jamielennx: ++ agree on the keystone manager cmd | 18:32 |
| ayoung | Nope | 18:33 |
| ayoung | that is the wrong security model | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | that means people who have access to the machine | 18:33 |
| ayoung | you don't want to push people to do that in the course of manageing the applicaiton | 18:33 |
| lbragstad | rderose i think we'd need to see a list of short comings in the federation implementation in order to prioritize | 18:33 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: if we're restricting the operation to the cloud-admin they they have access to the machine | 18:33 |
| stevemar | lbragstad: yep | 18:33 |
| rderose | lbragstad: good point | 18:33 |
| jamielennox | if you need to do this operation often enough that logging onto the machine is a problem you are doing management wrong | 18:34 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, we are doing management wrong. Its called Keystone | 18:34 |
| gyee | lmao | 18:34 |
| ayoung | we delete a project and all of the resources out there are orphaned | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | I think we need a well described use case, and how we would support it via federation (waht's missing as lbragstad said) | 18:34 |
| amakarov | ayoung: ++ | 18:34 |
| lbragstad | we emit notifications on resource changes | 18:34 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: so we need to have a look at keystone's delete project? | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | deprecate in favour of disable? | 18:35 |
| amakarov | more to say, looks nobody even dare to touch this topic publicly :) | 18:35 |
| ayoung | lbragstad, and we have no standard workflow engine so that is not sufficient | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | soft-delete? | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: no soft deletes. | 18:35 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, gyee has been saying that for years | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: i'm ok with "never remove from the db" | 18:35 |
| jamielennox | but a full on restore the db entry is also a bad idea | 18:35 |
| gyee | resource life-cycle management | 18:35 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: soft-delete implies "could be hard-deleted" | 18:36 |
| ayoung | I'm just afraid it is closing the barn door after the horse is long gone | 18:36 |
| jamielennox | notmorgan: meh, we have an enabled flag on projects, it's essentially a soft delete | 18:36 |
| gyee | that's production operation stuff | 18:36 |
| stevemar | i think we're mixing things up here, amakarov doesn't necessarily care about the 'restore a project' if deleted case | 18:36 |
| gyee | something we don't use often enough :-) | 18:36 |
| notmorgan | i'm 100% ok with nevre removing it as a delete instead. | 18:36 |
| dstanek | we should do event sourcing | 18:36 |
| amakarov | stevemar: yes | 18:36 |
| ayoung | anyway, keep it as a restricted operation. We can make it wider exposed later so long as it is RBAC managed | 18:36 |
| samueldmq | stevemar: ++ | 18:36 |
| notmorgan | ok lets set "restore" to the side | 18:36 |
| stevemar | so let's put the whole manage command, and soft delete discussion to the side | 18:36 |
| notmorgan | i'll propose something separate for that | 18:36 |
| notmorgan | i have an idea and i think it'll work just fine. | 18:37 |
| ayoung | You guys are missing the fact that notifications are currently a disaster, so we can't notify untrusted services | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: let's fix it, but it's still part of the other conversation :) | 18:37 |
| amakarov | well, let me put it this way: how can I provide a customer the UX when he auth in 1 cloud (in horizon) and then works with resources from the other cloud without re-login? | 18:37 |
| raildo | ayoung: ++ we have a huge problem with nova quota when we delete a project =/ | 18:37 |
| ayoung | and we don';t even know all of the services that would need the notification | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | amakarov: to do that via federation, what would we need ? | 18:37 |
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| stevemar | amakarov wants to specify an ID only for create, and he is using this in a multi-dc environment. if federation is stinky for this, we should fix it. | 18:38 |
| samueldmq | amakarov: does that mean 'federated resources' ? | 18:38 |
| amakarov | considering existing LDAP | 18:38 |
| ayoung | amakarov, that sounds like K2K | 18:38 |
| ayoung | But... | 18:38 |
| ayoung | that is the whole pre-sync between two clouds | 18:38 |
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| notmorgan | amakarov: "other cloud" - same owner different deployment (like AZ)? | 18:38 |
| dstanek | amakarov: one horizon for all DCs right? | 18:38 |
| ayoung | which is a good midcycle topic | 18:38 |
| amakarov | dstanek: ++ | 18:38 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: or totally different cloud totally different dpeloyer? | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | lets have a "larger workflows" track at the midcycle? | 18:38 |
| lbragstad | notmorgan good question | 18:39 |
| notmorgan | lbragstad: because the answer to that dictates my view. | 18:39 |
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| raildo | amakarov: it sounds like the Mercador idea... https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Mercador | 18:39 |
| dstanek | notmorgan: wouldn't solving for different owners essentially solve for both? | 18:39 |
| amakarov | notmorgan: no. clouds may be thought about as "replicated" | 18:39 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: so "same deployer" | 18:39 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: not really but hold on. | 18:40 |
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| amakarov | notmorgan: same deployer | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | amakarov: cool. then i think it's not unreasonable | 18:40 |
| jamielennox | why do 2 clouds from the same deployer wanting to share projects between them not use the same keystone? | 18:40 |
| stevemar | we have to move on, there are other topics on the agenda | 18:40 |
| notmorgan | dstanek: different deployers/owners is the same reason we assume keystone for the local cloud is authoritative. | 18:41 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: ++ | 18:41 |
| stevemar | i'll give this another minute to wrap up | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: my point was they could also solve this via replicating keystone | 18:41 |
| amakarov | jamielennox: it may be a big project distributed geographically | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | jamielennox: which is where i was going, and why it was "reasonable" to want that kind of replication | 18:41 |
| jamielennox | amakarov: keystone will support that | 18:41 |
| notmorgan | not that the API driven one was the right answer. i'm abstaining there | 18:41 |
| lbragstad | jamielennox same keystone or just point to the same backend (which is essentially the same thing?) | 18:41 |
| gyee | replicating gets expensive when you have more than a few DCs | 18:41 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: looks like we're trying to fix something that should be fixed with right deployment choice and/or federation | 18:41 |
| dstanek | amakarov: write up a detailed usecase so we can discuss further | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | you can horizontally scale keystone and you can put endpoints in different regions | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | fernet was a huge win for that | 18:42 |
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| samueldmq | dstanek: ++ amakarov please do what dstanek said ^ | 18:42 |
| amakarov | jamielennox: right, if the project id's are the same | 18:42 |
| lbragstad | fwiw - we did testing of that across three globally distributed datacenters | 18:42 |
| amakarov | samueldmq, dstanek: ack | 18:42 |
| amakarov | will do | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | amakarov: if they are the same keystone the project ids are unique within it | 18:43 |
| dstanek | stevemar: let's get this show on the road! | 18:43 |
| stevemar | dstanek: alright! | 18:43 |
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| stevemar | switching gears | 18:43 |
| stevemar | #topic Service Token provides user permissions spec | 18:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service Token provides user permissions spec (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:43 | |
| stevemar | jamielennox: ^ | 18:43 |
| stevemar | (i haven't read it yet) | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | ok, so we discussed this spec in tokyo and then i never got around to doing it in the last cycle | 18:44 |
| amakarov | jamielennox: different keystones | 18:44 |
| stevemar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317266/1/specs/keystone/newton/service-user-permissions.rst | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | the intent is that we should validate users only on the first service they hit in openstack, from then on in service to service communication we should trust the user permisssions provided by the last service | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: so a token only get validate once per openstack workflow ? | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | nice | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: yep | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: if you pass an X-Service-Token then the service token is validated to say that we should be able to trust this information | 18:45 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: looks like what we had a discussion a couple of months ago .. that could be implemented as a ksa plugin etc | 18:45 |
| notmorgan | this is something i've been advocating for a bit. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | so...what if we do :X-Service-Token + user_id + project_id + role_id | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | so this is a fairly large change in the way we handle tokens in openstack | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: same thing, slightly different mechanism | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | but it sovles the mid-operation token expiry which has plagued us forever | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | but the service token still needs to be validated, right ? | 18:46 |
| samueldmq | so no gain in terms of performance? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | so the remote side can still confirm that the resource is within the permissions boundary | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: yes, but that isn't long term | 18:46 |
| gyee | jamielennox, it will be an explicitly opt-in feature right? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | and we don't have an elevation of privs | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | the spec is not completely polished up and given the conceptual size of the change i just want to make sure people are on board first | 18:46 |
| raildo | jamielennox: is this a overcome for the nova/keystone design session, right? | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: actually one less validation- you don't need to validate twice | 18:46 |
| ayoung | pass along the list of roles in the token that the user was originally validated | 18:46 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: i still think that we're wrong on that front, but we can expand the discussion *after* | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: its a different topic that builds on jamielennox's proposal | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | raildo: well i'm pushing it now because it all came up again at summit and this was our solution that never got proposed | 18:47 |
| amakarov | samueldmq: if we figure smth out to trust some services - we don't have to validate tokens EVERY time | 18:47 |
| ayoung | notmorgan, just the role-list? | 18:47 |
| raildo | jamielennox: ++ nice | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | so there are a bunch of security questions about how we trust those headers | 18:47 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: long-term is use certs for that and don't validate service token at all ? (and user token only once at the beggining of workflow) | 18:47 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: like i said, something to discuss later - once we land this i don't want to derail | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | samueldmq: that will also be an option | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | but service tokens are easy to refresh | 18:48 |
| ayoung | service token == user with service role _ is_admin_project | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: certs would be cool | 18:48 |
| ayoung | er that _ should be + | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: or whatever the definition is. | 18:48 |
| samueldmq | amakarov: yes, that could be done using certificates, for example; but is a separate conversation, maybe long term :) | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | ayoung: that is an implementation detail | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | yea, don't need is_admin_project, however you define service is fine | 18:48 |
| notmorgan | can be whatever KSM is configured for | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | so there's a question in there about whether we should trust all the attributes passed as headers or whether we should take only the core user_id project_id etc and reconstruct it like we do fernet | 18:49 |
| samueldmq | notmorgan: jamielennox: nice so this definitely opens the door for other long term improvements (like that using certs) | 18:49 |
| samueldmq | works for me | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | that i'd like people to have a look at as well | 18:49 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: i think nova will no longer hate us if we get this in | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: yep, and all those stupid trust hacks that glance did recently can go away | 18:50 |
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| gyee | turn hate into love | 18:50 |
| ayoung | So the idea is that we pre-validate at the boundaries, and then trusted services can talk to each other. This is fine for, say, Nova to Glance, but I don't want it for *aaS like Sahara and Trove | 18:50 |
| jamielennox | glance as an example | 18:50 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: yep | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | gyee: ++ | 18:50 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: right, these are the concerns that i want out on the spec | 18:50 |
| ayoung | Yeah...this is not going to scale | 18:50 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: is it any worst/better in terms of security to trust all the headers ? | 18:50 |
| ayoung | this is why I want unified delegation | 18:50 |
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| jamielennox | so i don't expect everyone to have opinions on it now, but i'll put it on the agenda for next week as well and i'd like to hash it out on the spec until then | 18:51 |
| ayoung | but this is the right approach | 18:51 |
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| stevemar | jamielennox: i don't anticipate much push back | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: it's an open question | 18:51 |
| ayoung | we distinguish betwee "this is a long running operation, but treat it all as a unit" versus "do something for me later" | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: this is a giant security model change - it needs to be pushed back on | 18:52 |
| ayoung | this has the potential to be a disaster. | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: ++ | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: but there's no other reasonable way i can see to solve it | 18:52 |
| rderose | ++ | 18:52 |
| stevemar | well, currently things just time out, or token expirations are set stupidly high, so... this is an improvement to me | 18:53 |
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| jamielennox | i expect to have to expand the security implications bit to an essay | 18:53 |
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| samueldmq | it would be cool if polcies were configured per openstack workflow (create instance and all its involved API calls) rather than separate API operations | 18:53 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, ++ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | and to do that we need to know what perms you need for the workflow | 18:53 |
| samueldmq | that means, reflect this work in the policy bits | 18:53 |
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| jamielennox | yep - and if we're in the process of designing openstack 2.0 then i have other ideas as well | 18:53 |
| ayoung | which leads to dynamic policy and all the heresy I've been spewing these past few years | 18:54 |
| samueldmq | cool, I like it | 18:54 |
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| topol | jamielennox, what level of confidence do we have that this does not open some big unforseen security hole? | 18:54 |
| topol | how do we vet/ | 18:54 |
| topol | ? | 18:54 |
| amakarov | ayoung: we can do that btw )) | 18:54 |
| ayoung | topol, 100% that it does. | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | topol: it's certainly risky, it escalates the service user from something that is not particularly interesting to something that can emulate everyone | 18:54 |
| notmorgan | topol: it is not a lot worse than we have now. | 18:54 |
| ayoung | topol, because we are not going to be able to limit this to services in the service catalog | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | nova tells me that there is no service user on the compute nodes | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | because they don't even know their own identity | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | but it makes the service users a much jucier target | 18:55 |
| gyee | if service is sharing the same memcached, any service could potentially modify the token validation results | 18:55 |
| gyee | just saying :-) | 18:55 |
| ayoung | Why did we split OpenStack into microservices again? | 18:56 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: ++ | 18:56 |
| samueldmq | how does a service know its creds to auth against keystone ? | 18:57 |
| stevemar | henrynash: i'm assuming 3 minutes isn't enough time for you? | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | anyway - not much time left, but these questions are why i would like to debate it a lot oon the spec | 18:57 |
| henrynash | probably not | 18:57 |
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| ayoung | notmorgan, want to float"signed requests" again? | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: same as now, they all have it | 18:57 |
| notmorgan | oauth | 18:57 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, they are autogenerated and stuck in the config file by Puppet etc | 18:57 |
| stevemar | henrynash: we can chat in -keystone, cc ayoung | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: config files ? | 18:57 |
| samueldmq | oh | 18:57 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, ye | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | i spent a bunch of time looking at oauth, it's not going to work for us | 18:58 |
| henrynash | stevemar: yep | 18:58 |
| samueldmq | ayoung: isn't that dangerous ? | 18:58 |
| ayoung | samueldmq, yes | 18:58 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: if we're going to certs in the future, let's look at the effort with going with it now vs 2-step | 18:59 |
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| ayoung | samueldmq, the old saying about laws and sausages goes double for software and treble for security | 18:59 |
| samueldmq | jamielennox: (not agaisnt at all, just want to put all the options on the table) | 18:59 |
| jamielennox | samueldmq: certs is never something we are going to be able to enforce globally | 18:59 |
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| stevemar | lets roll out | 18:59 |
| gyee | say what? | 18:59 |
| stevemar | #endmeeting | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 18:59:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2016/keystone.2016-05-17-18.00.log.html | 19:00 |
| fungi | infra team, assemble! | 19:00 |
| samueldmq | thanks all | 19:00 |
| crinkle | o/ | 19:00 |
| notmorgan | vvtletuvnjejbnerlenvfgrehirtlrfgenunbbetbcli | 19:00 |
| Zara | o/ | 19:00 |
| notmorgan | man... i am going to go fix tha... | 19:00 |
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| notmorgan | o/ | 19:00 |
| e0ne | hi | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | hiho | 19:00 |
| clarkb | hello | 19:00 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:00 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:00 |
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| fungi | topics from fungi and zaro. this week. it's the fungi and zaro show? | 19:01 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 19:01:21 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
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| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
| fungi | #topic Announcements | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| fungi | none for this week | 19:01 |
| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| jeblair | not yet, sorry | 19:02 |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-10-19.03.html | 19:02 |
| fungi | heh | 19:02 |
| fungi | #action jeblair investigate mail filtering by recipient options for infra-root@o.o inbox | 19:02 |
| fungi | #topic Specs approval | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| fungi | none new this week | 19:02 |
| fungi | we still need to flesh out the wip task tracking spec | 19:03 |
| fungi | i was going to pick it up, but got busy with other stuff | 19:03 |
| SotK | o/ | 19:03 |
| fungi | i did move the translation improvements spec to implemented last week | 19:03 |
| jeblair | ++ | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | great | 19:04 |
| fungi | #topic Gerrit 2.11 disk utilization and Revisit Gerrit git gc (fungi, zaro) | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit 2.11 disk utilization and Revisit Gerrit git gc (fungi, zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| fungi | #link http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=2839&rra_id=all | 19:04 |
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| fungi | a couple weeks ago i ended up growing the backing volume for the gerrit homedir on review.o.o | 19:04 |
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| fungi | since right around the 2.11 upgrade, disk utilization inside the git tree there has been experiencing unbounded growth | 19:05 |
| fungi | and anteaya noticed that we were almost out of disk | 19:05 |
| jeblair | that is... substantial. | 19:05 |
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| fungi | so i doubled it and we've gained some breathing room for the other half of this topic | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | we've also been adding about one project a day, do we know whether it's gerrit or project growth? or both? | 19:05 |
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| fungi | no, like the nova repo was some 10x larger than in january | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | wow | 19:06 |
| fungi | #link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-infra@lists.openstack.org/msg04264.html | 19:06 |
| fungi | zaro: has done some more experimentation with the gerrit background git gc task | 19:06 |
| fungi | and it looks like he wanted to discuss it in the meeting | 19:07 |
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| Shrews | o/ | 19:07 |
| zaro | yup. so i think there was some lingering concern since last testing i did | 19:07 |
| zaro | i've now tested it on review-dev.o.o running gc on the nova repo and nothing bad happend to it. | 19:08 |
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| zaro | also put it up there in case anybody else wanted to test other stuff on it | 19:08 |
| zaro | wanted to see if poeple still have further questions? | 19:09 |
| jeblair | are we sure we are running the existing repack cron? | 19:09 |
| * fungi checks syslog on review.o.o | 19:09 | |
| jeblair | it is at least starting... | 19:10 |
| jeblair | May 15 04:07:01 review CRON[42940]: (gerrit2) CMD (find /home/gerrit2/review_site/git/ -type d -name "*.git" -print -exec git --git-dir="{}" repack -afd \;) | 19:10 |
| fungi | yeah | 19:10 |
| jeblair | no idea if it's finishing | 19:10 |
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| fungi | i suppose i could try manually running the same as the gerrit2 user and seeing what happens | 19:10 |
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| fungi | any objection to me starting it now? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | not here | 19:11 |
| fungi | no idea how long it runs | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | zaro: the only thing i haven't seen is how this impacts the git servers (which i think was one of the things i mentioned in my original email?) | 19:11 |
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| zaro | i guess i wasn't aware of that. | 19:12 |
| jeblair | zaro: http://paste.openstack.org/show/497409/ | 19:13 |
| jeblair | zaro: that paragraph from the email | 19:13 |
| fungi | i've got a screen session as gerrit2 on review.o.o with that command copied from crontab -l running, if another infra-root needs to attach: sudo su - gerrit2; script /dev/null; screen -x | 19:14 |
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| zaro | jeblair: are you referring to the cgit servers? | 19:15 |
| nibalizer | o/ (only sorta) | 19:15 |
| zaro | git.o.o? | 19:15 |
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| fungi | zaro: yes, those | 19:15 |
| jeblair | zaro: yes. that is the principal thing i'm worried about. | 19:15 |
| jeblair | i'm sure that gerrit gc will make gerrit faster | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | i'm not sure what will happen to the git servers | 19:16 |
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| zaro | so doesn't gerrit replicate to those? | 19:16 |
| clarkb | I thought that was tested and hashar? provided independent confirmation | 19:16 |
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| jeblair | zaro: it does | 19:16 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i was unaware of that | 19:16 |
| clarkb | ya regular git used less memory for them after they started GCing iirc | 19:17 |
| zaro | would it be possible to test with some other repo on review.o.o? | 19:17 |
| jeblair | and what impact did it have on network traffic and the resulting size of repos that were cloned from a git server? | 19:17 |
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| jeblair | i think this is easy to test. just get a repo, gc it, and serve it with cgit and the apache smart git protocol | 19:18 |
| clarkb | I don't recall specifics on network traffic and size of cloned repos | 19:18 |
| jeblair | this is a one way trip for us | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | so before we embark on it, i think it would be good to know how it's going to alter one of the more performance-critical pieces of our infrastructure | 19:18 |
| jeblair | however, if other folks don't share that concern, we can yolo it. | 19:19 |
| fungi | zaro: jeblair: we could test what happens with replication to the local mirror on review-dev? | 19:19 |
| zaro | jeblair: are you suggesting we setup a seperate cgit server for this test? | 19:19 |
| fungi | i assume we have one configured | 19:19 |
| clarkb | fungi: we do | 19:20 |
| jeblair | zaro: the testing can be done locally | 19:20 |
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| zaro | i thought review-dev was only replicating to github? | 19:20 |
| clarkb | zaro: it has a local replica too | 19:20 |
| clarkb | the stuff served out of /p/foo/bar | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | git.o.o has lots of protocols | 19:21 |
| jeblair | git smart http via apache, git native, cgit | 19:21 |
| jeblair | (also, even occasionally git dumb via http) | 19:21 |
| clarkb | the first two are trivial to test on review-dev, the last would require a cgit install | 19:21 |
| jeblair | all of them may behave differently | 19:22 |
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| fungi | yeah, and cgit install means probably separate centos server | 19:22 |
| jeblair | i'm not trying to slow this down | 19:22 |
| zaro | so nova-gc repo is already on review-dev.o.o so we can just look at the local replication? | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | i seriously think this does not require any special access | 19:23 |
| jeblair | just do it locally | 19:23 |
| zaro | not sure why we need a cgit install now. thought you said we only need local test? | 19:23 |
| clarkb | zaro: because cgit serves git repos | 19:23 |
| jeblair | yes, install cgit on a local server | 19:23 |
| jeblair | or a cloud server somewhere | 19:23 |
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| clarkb | so the test is to ensure we don't negative impact the memory/cpu/network/disk of cgit when we switch | 19:23 |
| jeblair | don't worry about review-dev or setting up some kind of new public cgit server | 19:23 |
| cody-somerville | \o_ | 19:25 |
| fungi | private gerrit vm replicating to private cgit vm, test performance of cloning and fetching from the cgit vm via http/https/git protocols before and after turning on gerrit background git gc? | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | fungi: sure. actual gerrit optional. :) | 19:26 |
| jeblair | (since we could forego using gerrit gc and just use git gc to give us more control) | 19:26 |
| jeblair | just, whichever of those zaro wants to actually do :) | 19:27 |
| fungi | btw, faux-cron repack still going on review.o.o in my screen session | 19:27 |
| fungi | hasn't bombed yet anyway | 19:27 |
| zaro | i guess it depends whether there's value in having a cgit test server somewhere? | 19:28 |
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| zaro | and having gerrit replicate to it? | 19:28 |
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| zaro | or is this something we only do one time? | 19:28 |
| jeblair | this is a one time thing | 19:29 |
| zaro | ok. then i'll try the less work route | 19:29 |
| jeblair | that's the reason i put the tarball of the git repo up -- because none of this requires access to production servers | 19:29 |
| hashar | o/ | 19:30 |
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| zaro | ok, so i guess we prefer to test cgit before doing? is that the decision? | 19:31 |
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| fungi | hashar: clarkb mentioned your gc'd git replica performance testing back around 19:16 utc in the meeting log. do you have a link to that analysis handy? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | i don't mind either way (though if there are surprises, i won't be fixing them) | 19:32 |
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| hashar | clarkb: fungi: I might have wrote it in the infra mailing list directly | 19:33 |
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| fungi | hashar: do you recall roughly when that was? | 19:33 |
| hashar | nop but can look it up | 19:33 |
| fungi | if you can narrow it down to a particular month, i can dig up a ml archive url for it easily | 19:34 |
| hashar | I was replying to some email from Zaro for sure | 19:34 |
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| zaro | hashar: sorry i don't remember :( | 19:34 |
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| zaro | maybe we should continue and round back? | 19:36 |
| fungi | yeah, let's proceed to teh next (also gerrit-related) topic | 19:37 |
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| hashar | yup I will post to the mailling list if I find something | 19:37 |
| fungi | it's "gerrit week" here in infra | 19:37 |
| fungi | thanks hashar! thanks zaro! | 19:37 |
| fungi | #topic Gerrit project renames using the Gerrit import/delete plugin (zaro) | 19:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gerrit project renames using the Gerrit import/delete plugin (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:38 | |
| fungi | #link https://gerrit.googlesource.com/plugins/importer/+/stable-2.11/src/main/resources/Documentation/about.md | 19:38 |
| zaro | so i've tested what's described there to rename projects. it's real slick and easy | 19:38 |
| fungi | zaro: so if i understand the proposal, it's to use that plugin to "import" a gerrit project to a new name and then delete the old one? | 19:38 |
| zaro | and no restart or rindex required | 19:38 |
| zaro | fungi: yup, that's really all there is too it. | 19:39 |
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| fungi | zaro: reading that, it seems to import from a second gerrit. does importing from itself also work? | 19:39 |
| jeblair | neato! | 19:39 |
| clarkb | https://gerrit.googlesource.com/plugins/importer/+/stable-2.11/src/main/resources/Documentation/about.md#Project-Rename is the section for renames | 19:39 |
| zaro | yes. | 19:39 |
| fungi | aha | 19:39 |
| fungi | i skimmed poorly! | 19:39 |
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| zaro | you can copy, and even move it to a subproject | 19:39 |
| zaro | or i mean across subprojects | 19:40 |
| fungi | and it keeps open changes, subscriptions, et cetera? | 19:40 |
| zaro | yes | 19:40 |
| fungi | starred changes carry over too? | 19:40 |
| zaro | hmm, i didn't check that. but can later | 19:40 |
| fungi | do they end up with new change urls? new change-ids? | 19:40 |
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| fungi | just thinking through the things we normally copy when updating the db | 19:41 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya I would worry about that, not sure how you can preserve the change numbers between two servers | 19:41 |
| clarkb | seems like collisions would be a big issue | 19:41 |
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| zaro | for the changes. no, it keeps the same url, change id and commit id | 19:41 |
| fungi | i have a feeling the long change-ids remain the same at least | 19:41 |
| fungi | but i'm surprised it could have the same change number | 19:42 |
| zaro | sorry, actually i think change ids do change. | 19:42 |
| fungi | i thought that was a unique incremented integer column in the table | 19:42 |
| jeblair | especially since, at some point during the process, the project exists in two places... | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | so this would break all of our urls | 19:43 |
| zaro | opps, i mean change number changes, but change id stays the same | 19:43 |
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| fungi | ti definitely sounds worthy of further investigation. i don't mind there being some caveats to a rename since that may help discourage them further, but the compromises will need to be weighed against the benefits (no downtime and no offline reindex are biggies) | 19:44 |
| zaro | here's a project copy in progress: https://review-dev.openstack.org/#/x/importer/list | 19:44 |
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| fungi | i wonder if the plugin could be extended to have a proper "rename" mode which encapsulates the copy and delete but preserves id numbers and anything else which would otherwise be awkward for an import/copy | 19:45 |
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| fungi | so anyway, it's an interesting proposal for sure. there's some serious merit if it gets us free of having maintenance windows to rename projects | 19:46 |
| fungi | more research needed for now though | 19:47 |
| fungi | #topic Project rename scheduling (fungi) | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project rename scheduling (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
| fungi | and on that note... | 19:47 |
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| fungi | when do we want to rename openstack/openstack-ansible-ironic to openstack/openstack-ansible-os_ironic, and possibly also openstack-infra/ansible-puppet to openstack-infra/ansible-role-puppet | 19:47 |
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| fungi | mordred added the second one, but hasn't written the change to actually implement it | 19:48 |
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| fungi | i can tell everyone is excited at the prospect of yet another gerrit maintenance window | 19:48 |
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| prometheanfire | woooo | 19:49 |
| fungi | i guess let's not shoot for "May 23-27" since that's our server upgrades sprint week | 19:49 |
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| pleia2 | memorial day in the states is the following week, but maybe later in that week? | 19:50 |
| fungi | clarkb and i are also not around for much of the week of june 5 | 19:50 |
| pleia2 | how about the 3rd? | 19:51 |
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| fungi | i could see doing it on friday the 3rd of may | 19:51 |
| clarkb | I won't be around the 3rd, but you don't need me | 19:51 |
| pleia2 | june ;) | 19:51 |
| fungi | er | 19:51 |
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| fungi | right | 19:51 |
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| fungi | months | 19:51 |
| fungi | i could see doing it on friday the 3rd of JUNE | 19:51 |
| pleia2 | I'll be around | 19:52 |
| fungi | yeah, i don't have any plans that day | 19:52 |
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| fungi | if there's at least two infra-root volunteers, it's probably fine? | 19:52 |
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| fungi | #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html release schedule | 19:52 |
| pleia2 | I'll be on east coast time, so earlier is better | 19:52 |
| fungi | that's the end of n1 milestone week | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | ah, hm | 19:53 |
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| fungi | which is probably fine? earlier that week less so of course | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:53 |
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| clarkb | I have family arriving the econd and traveling the 4th so the 3rd is likely family day | 19:54 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: any concerns with an extended gerrit maintenance window friday the 3rd of june, the last day of n1 milestone week? | 19:54 |
| dhellmann | fungi : when would you want to start? | 19:54 |
| dhellmann | it probably won't be an issue, as long as we get the milestone tags done before you start | 19:55 |
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| dhellmann | and it should be possible to do that early in the day EST | 19:55 |
| fungi | pleia2 and i are volunteering to work on it, and we'll both be in edt that week, so probably not super late | 19:55 |
| pleia2 | 2000? | 19:55 |
| fungi | 20:00 utc works fine for me | 19:56 |
| * dhellmann converts to local time | 19:56 | |
| pleia2 | now :) | 19:56 |
| fungi | that's 4pm augusta time | 19:56 |
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| dhellmann | also athens but yeah, that should work fine | 19:56 |
| fungi | #agreed Gerrit rename maintenance tentatively scheduled 20:00-24:00 UTC Friday, June 3 | 19:56 |
| fungi | dhellmann: ahh, one of those a towns. at least i didn't say atlanta ;) | 19:57 |
| jeblair | all the "A" towns in georgia are conveniently in the same timezone | 19:57 |
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| fungi | so desu nee | 19:57 |
| prometheanfire | can I bring up something real quick? have a meeting to run to | 19:57 |
| fungi | still one topic to go | 19:57 |
| dhellmann | jeblair : augusta is actually spelled disgusta, but yeah ;-) | 19:57 |
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| fungi | #topic Privileged or sanitized log access for openstackid.org (fungi) | 19:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Privileged or sanitized log access for openstackid.org (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:57 | |
| prometheanfire | ok, guess I'll be late | 19:58 |
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| fungi | we temporarily granted smarcet root access to openstackid.org shortly before the summit so he could review logs | 19:58 |
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| fungi | just wanted to see if anyone is interested in helping me work out a solution for puppeting privileged log access or alternatively a log sanitization and publishing solution for that server | 19:58 |
| fungi | come find me in #openstack-infra to discuss since it's almost tc meeting time now | 19:59 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:59 | |
| prometheanfire | thanks | 19:59 |
| fungi | prometheanfire: what's the question? | 19:59 |
| jeblair | i think priv access is better; i'm not super keen on exposing (even sanitized) authn logs | 19:59 |
| prometheanfire | I've been working on getting gentoo into nodepool | 19:59 |
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| prometheanfire | it was brought up that maybe I should make a spec for it, do I need to? | 20:00 |
| clarkb | jeblair: agreed, particularly since they carry potentially personally identifiable infos | 20:00 |
| clarkb | jeblair: mapping names and users to IPs | 20:00 |
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| fungi | prometheanfire: i don't personally see a need to have a spec for that unless there's a lot of review confusion around it | 20:00 |
| prometheanfire | I don't think there is | 20:00 |
| fungi | also we're out of time. don't want to anger the lovely tc | 20:00 |
| fungi | prometheanfire: then i'd just go forth and code | 20:00 |
| prometheanfire | just have to touch a lot of projects | 20:01 |
| dims_ | haha fungi | 20:01 |
| fungi | thanks everyone! | 20:01 |
| prometheanfire | yep, sgtm | 20:01 |
| prometheanfire | cya | 20:01 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 20:01:09 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.txt | 20:01 |
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| bkero | bye | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2016/infra.2016-05-17-19.01.log.html | 20:01 |
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| ttx | o/ | 20:01 |
| fungi | apologies ttx, i owe you 1.5 minutes | 20:01 |
| mestery | o/ | 20:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| notmorgan | \o | 20:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 20:01 |
| notmyname | hello | 20:01 |
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| mugsie | hi | 20:01 |
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| ttx | annegentle, dims, flaper87, mtreinish, thingee, mordred, russellb, sdague : around ? | 20:01 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:01 |
| * notmorgan is different and waves with the other hand. | 20:01 | |
| mtreinish | o/ | 20:01 |
| russellb | hi | 20:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| dims_ | o/ | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 20:02:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| annegentle | here | 20:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
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| dims_ | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Hi everyone... | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| * rockyg shifts position as foot fell asleep in last meeting | 20:02 | |
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| ttx | A small appetizer first | 20:02 |
| annegentle | snacktime! | 20:02 |
| thingee | o/ | 20:02 |
| * edleafe lurks innocently | 20:02 | |
| * notmorgan drinks coffee. | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #topic Add Zanata dev team as extra ATC | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add Zanata dev team as extra ATC (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
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| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/313934 | 20:02 |
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| * notmorgan offers coffee to thingee. | 20:02 | |
| ttx | I18n PTL proposes to add a few Zanata developers as extra ATCs, to recognize their role in providing and improving the tool that is central to the I18n team work | 20:03 |
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| * thingee has the shakes | 20:03 | |
| ttx | This already has more than enough votes to pass, so I'll approve this now unless someone objects and wants to discuss it further | 20:03 |
| mestery | Seems straightforward to me | 20:03 |
| annegentle | yep! | 20:03 |
| flaper87 | yup | 20:03 |
| ttx | ok then, approved | 20:03 |
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| dims_ | yep | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Add golang as an approved language - technical benefits discussion | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add golang as an approved language - technical benefits discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| ttx | (timeboxing this one to 40 minutes so we have the time to discuss openstack-salt) | 20:04 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/312267 | 20:04 |
| ttx | Last week we (mostly) discussed community costs, with two identified categories | 20:04 |
| ttx | - the base cost of community fragmentation every time we add a language | 20:04 |
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| ttx | - the cost to OpenStack cross-project to support the added language (Infra, Release management, Docs, QA...) | 20:04 |
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| ttx | On the latter I think most teams have started evaluating the cost to them | 20:04 |
| ttx | but it will probably take a few more days before we can collate the results and truly weigh the benefits against the cost | 20:05 |
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| ttx | So let's discuss benefits | 20:05 |
| ttx | The idea here is that Go allows us to overcome performance/IO/concurrency limitations in Python | 20:05 |
| ttx | Or, as nicely summarized by ayoung on the thread: "Python for most things. Javascript for web out of necessity. Go for native tuning." | 20:05 |
| ttx | And as it goes I think Go is probably the solution for that domain that would generate the less community fragmentation | 20:05 |
| ayoung | what did I do now? | 20:05 |
| ttx | In the long ML thread(s) I spotted two major objections to that | 20:05 |
| dims_ | ayoung : all good :) | 20:06 |
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| ttx | ayoung: you nicely summarized | 20:06 |
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| mestery | ayoung: I think you brought some good sanity and a nice quote to this discussion around Golang :) | 20:06 |
| ttx | (A) is around Python and performance -- suggesting that you can totally write code in "Python" that would perform as well as Go | 20:06 |
| mestery | ttx: ++ | 20:06 |
| russellb | +1 to Go being solution that creates least fragmentation for addressing that problem space in our community | 20:06 |
| ttx | (B) is that the main driver for Go seems to come from the need to do smart / data-plane work (in Swift or Designate) while OpenStack is otherwise dumb / control-plane (we integrate external data-plane solutions) | 20:06 |
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| ttx | My take is that (A) is a bit weak -- I trust the Swift folks to have tried to optimize their Python code and not have jumped on the Go bandwagon lightly | 20:06 |
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| ttx | (B), though, triggers an essential question for the Technical Committee: | 20:06 |
| ttx | Should we add Go to better embrace smart/data-plane projects, or should we spin out smarty/data-plany things as external open source projects and limit OpenStack's mission to integrating them ? | 20:07 |
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| ttx | I.e. is the need for Go in core OpenStack a clear sign that we are overstepping our mission bounds ? | 20:07 |
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| sdague | that's an interesting question | 20:07 |
| notmorgan | I agree A isn't strong or a reason to block Golang (or any other language) | 20:07 |
| mestery | ttx: It's an interesting question | 20:07 |
| ttx | (and smart things like hypervisors, databases, message queues, DNS proxies or object stores should be their own external open source projects, coded in whatever language is most appropriate ?) | 20:07 |
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| dims_ | we should not be turning people away! | 20:08 |
| ttx | dims_: we can't host all the open source in the world either | 20:08 |
| dims_ | ttx : not asking for that either | 20:08 |
| ttx | but we should definitely try to integrate with most ? | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | could the dns proxy designate is building work as an external project? does it talk directly to their database or anything like that? | 20:08 |
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| mestery | I think we should look at these in a case by case basis | 20:08 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: it does talk directly to our db | 20:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, some folks will thrive better on their own, the tricky bit is choosing who that should be | 20:08 |
| mestery | I mean, in the case of swift and designate, if we say no to Golang, we have forced them to use github or some other place to host a piece of their SW | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | What would having them as external projects mean? Would they be under the openstack org but not part of our governance? | 20:09 |
| notmorgan | ttx: so let me be sure i get what you're saying: designate API would still be in scope, the dns proxy would not? | 20:09 |
| annegentle | seeing all the difficulty getting common doc toolsets working, I'd like to encourage more onion layers in the ecosystem | 20:09 |
| mugsie | it is not so much a proxy as a DNS master that serves to the DNS servers that we integrate with | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | Would they have to be moved to some other org? | 20:09 |
| mugsie | it is kind of core to our control plane | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | mugsie : ok, so integration would become a bit more complicated that way unless that thing had an API for talking to it somehow | 20:09 |
| mugsie | yeah | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | notmorgan : yeah, that's how I understood it | 20:09 |
| notmorgan | ttx: similar for object store, the API and similar would all be part of scope, but the actual bits that (for example write to disk) would not? | 20:09 |
| annegentle | flaper87 it's more "why the OpenStack org" to me, we have plenty on our plate that we're not delivering on. | 20:09 |
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| notmorgan | dhellmann: just making sure we have that clearly outlined. | 20:09 |
| ttx | It's a larger question obviously, we are back at "what is OpenStack" again | 20:10 |
| flaper87 | annegentle: that's how I read it too | 20:10 |
| mestery | The analogy to Neutron and [OVN, ODL, midonet, etc.] is interesting here. In that case, we do have many external implementations not in openstack itself | 20:10 |
| edleafe | annegentle: +1 | 20:10 |
| dims_ | why do we have to equate OpenStack === Python? | 20:10 |
| * dhellmann wonders if we'll only ever answer "what is openstack?" when we can ask it as "what was openstack?" | 20:10 | |
| sdague | right, ovn went off to solve the in tree SDN out of tree | 20:10 |
| ttx | If it's just about "an integration engine for providing infrastructure-as-a-service" then it shouldn't need much more than Python | 20:10 |
| dtroyer | mestery: those all have reasons to exist without OpenStack, the project under consideration arguably does not (the golang portion) | 20:10 |
| mestery | sdague: ++ | 20:10 |
| mugsie | dtroyer: ++ | 20:10 |
| ttx | the problem is it's also an object store, a queue, a DNS proxy... | 20:11 |
| russellb | right, because we felt the ovs community was a good palce to do that (and make it more reusable outside of openstack) | 20:11 |
| fungi | fwiw, saying "no" to go wouldn't necessarily mean hosting outside our infrastructure. we just added a c-based project for swift the otehr day (the liberasurecode dependency they've adopted) | 20:11 |
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| mestery | russellb: Exactly | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : which part of what project? | 20:11 |
| russellb | i do agree we should encourage more reusability outside of our community where it makes sense | 20:11 |
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| mestery | russellb: ++ | 20:11 |
| thingee | dims_: I don't think it's OpenStack === python ... it's us reevaluating our scope as a result of golang being brought up because of the current scope. | 20:11 |
| notmorgan | fungi: ++ | 20:11 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: the hummingbird branch of swift | 20:11 |
| annegentle | I would like to see outroads rather than inroads. And I don't believe it's saying Python is OpenStack. | 20:11 |
| mestery | thingee: Well said | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : when I looked at that branch today, the readme said the object service was feature complete -- so I think there's a whole rewrite in there | 20:12 |
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| dtroyer | dhellmann: for one part of the project, not the entire project | 20:12 |
| ttx | mestery, dims: they could still be developed on openstack infrastructure | 20:12 |
| annegentle | thingee yeah, scope. | 20:12 |
| dims_ | thingee : designate and swift are just trying to do what they do better for our users | 20:12 |
| notmyname | it's not, nor is the current hummingbird branch what we want to bring into master whole-cloth | 20:12 |
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| dims_ | so where is the scope creep? | 20:12 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: good to know. | 20:12 |
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| notmorgan | notmyname: thanks :) | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer, notmyname: ok, given the list of things that are there, it's not clear what parts are/aren't rewritten | 20:13 |
| notmyname | "it's not" == the hummingbird branch is not feature complete, and is not a full rewrite of anything | 20:13 |
| thingee | dims_: no arguments there. | 20:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | so swift is OpenStack, they feel they need to use Go, that bit doesn't seem like a scope creep at least? | 20:13 |
| dims_ | johnthetubaguy : they are delivering what they delivered before, but better... | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | notmyname : ok, so that readme is just wrong? | 20:13 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dims_: right | 20:13 |
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| mestery | I am tending to evaluate 312267 on the basis of "swift and designate want to use Golang", but perhaps the review is wider and we're worried about the net it will cast? | 20:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | so a slight tangent... we are not saying its a good idea to have the swift API in Go and python, right? | 20:13 |
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| dhellmann | mestery : yeah, the most recent comment about starting to rewrite everything bothers me | 20:14 |
| annegentle | dims_ To me, the scope creep is the cross project work. For example, choosing to have infra work on this integration rather than say, https on the docs site. Having to document best practices for operators to integrate these projects. Packagers time spent with Go needs instead of IaaS projects. | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | mestery: i think the net is wide and i don't want to evaluate this as "project X wants golang" | 20:14 |
| mestery | dhellmann: I agree | 20:14 |
| thingee | dims_: however, we as a community are effected by these decisions. I think it's healthy for us to talk about current scope. | 20:14 |
| dims_ | thingee : yep, understoof | 20:14 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: yeah, that was definitly not my intention (rewrite everything) | 20:14 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: from the community perspective, yes. the branch has been focused on a subset of functionality that is the current feature set for rackspace cloud files. and everyone will agree that there's a huge lack of docs on it right now. that's one of the things we're working on over the next six months | 20:14 |
| notmorgan | mestery: it's the wrong approach, because we're not looking at project X. project X just has a case to propose this right now and is justifying the conversation. | 20:14 |
| annegentle | mestery I'm not evaluating 312267 for just swift and designate. I can't. We're drowning here. | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : could you envision the dns server you're working on being a thing outside of openstack that you talk to from designate? | 20:15 |
| notmorgan | mestery: the wider reasoning for including golang is the important thing to consider. | 20:15 |
| mestery | notmorgan: But if we say no to Golang, will swift and designate just not use it? | 20:15 |
| mestery | What happens to them if we say no? | 20:15 |
| mugsie | well, it is replacing a currently existing one | 20:15 |
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| ttx | mestery: there are three potential outcomes to this: yes to golang, no to golang, and spin out some pieces (don't really need to answer that go question after all) | 20:15 |
| mestery | Do they move their Golang pieces somewhere else? | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | notmyname : ok, thanks for clarifying | 20:15 |
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| ttx | I don't think the second solution is an option | 20:15 |
| mestery | notmyname: What happens if hte TC says no to Golong? | 20:15 |
| mestery | Do you just move your swift Golang pieces somewhere else? | 20:15 |
| annegentle | mestery they can use it and we won't stop them. They can move it without bringing additional burdens to the middle. | 20:15 |
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| thingee | ttx: +1 | 20:16 |
| mugsie | mestery: in our case as a project we probably won't, but I know a certain large cloud provider will keep it | 20:16 |
| notmyname | mestery: I have no idea. I haven't wanted to consider that. I don't think there are good options for anyone at that point | 20:16 |
| mestery | notmyname: right | 20:16 |
| ttx | mestery: I think that's sidestepping the question. I don't see why we'd say no to golang and still say that smart/data-plane projects are ok | 20:16 |
| greghaynes | Have we actually established that there is a need for designate to rewrite in go? I still havent seen anything to that effect, or are we just saying we don't mind despite not showing that? | 20:16 |
| notmorgan | ttx: exactly. | 20:16 |
| ttx | so "no to golang" is not really an option I think. | 20:16 |
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| mestery | ttx: OK, so then I am not sure why we'd say no to Golang here | 20:16 |
| mestery | ttx: Right | 20:16 |
| mestery | :) | 20:16 |
| mestery | ttx: We're on the same page! | 20:16 |
| russellb | i tend to think +1 to golang, assume people don't rewrite stuff lightly, and address real problems if/when they arise | 20:16 |
| ttx | but "we should only do dumb things" is one option | 20:16 |
| ttx | So to summarize... | 20:17 |
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| notmorgan | greghaynes: as much as i want to talk about that, i'd like to table that to the side for purposes here. | 20:17 |
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| ttx | If we say smart/dataplany things are in scope of openstack, I think we need to approve golang as a nice omplement tool | 20:17 |
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| ttx | +c | 20:17 |
| russellb | it already is in a number of places | 20:17 |
| dims_ | ttx +1 | 20:17 |
| mestery | Yeah | 20:17 |
| russellb | i don't see how we can change that | 20:17 |
| mestery | ttx: +1 | 20:17 |
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| notmorgan | ttx: ++ | 20:17 |
| annegentle | ttx does that approval then imply approval for all the cross-project work to be "blessed?" | 20:17 |
| ttx | If we say openstack should only be dumb / controlplany stuff, then I think Python is plenty enough | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | russellb : why can't we change that? | 20:17 |
| russellb | dhellmann: not easily, at least | 20:18 |
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| dougwig | greghaynes: the "but python could do that" arguments are reminiscient of early debates between perl and python and C. technically, C could do everything python does, too. that's not always the end of the question. | 20:18 |
| annegentle | ttx or take priority even? | 20:18 |
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| dhellmann | russellb : this is openstack, nothing is easy | 20:18 |
| russellb | :) | 20:18 |
| ttx | russellb: it's easy to enter the tent, it's easy to exit it | 20:18 |
| dtroyer | annegentle: I think that means those who what officiality are on the hook to provide support for the requirements that follow | 20:18 |
| thingee | big tent is not hotel california. | 20:18 |
| * flaper87 lost connection for a bit so no idea what's easy/hard to do | 20:18 | |
| flaper87 | thingee: lol | 20:18 |
| notmorgan | ttx: so i want to quote a comment on the golang thread. | 20:18 |
| russellb | i don't know that it's easy to remove neutron, for example | 20:19 |
| mestery | thingee: That's a twitter quote right there :) | 20:19 |
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| notmorgan | ttx: that worries me. it's related to all this. | 20:19 |
| bswartz | I'm curious to know what the proposed performance improvement is with golang vs python. I saw a document that showed something like a 60% speedup -- but that seemed rather pathetic to me. Normally people don't consider major architectural changes for anything less than an order of magnitude improvement. There's a reason we don't have 1.6 gigabit ethernet. | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | ttx: "If Go was accepted as an officially supported language in the OpenStack community, I'd be the first to start to rewrite as much code as possible in Go." | 20:19 |
| notmorgan | ttx: ^ That worries me. | 20:19 |
| greghaynes | I dont mean to debate the specifics of designate, I am mostly trying to figure out if this is making a general rule for a single specific case... | 20:19 |
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| ttx | notmorgan: yeah, I can see that. People using the shiny thing just because it's in the toolbelt | 20:19 |
| annegentle | dtroyer but they seem to get official approval with this patch, without having to prove that they'll provide resources. | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: exactly my point | 20:19 |
| ttx | notmorgan: I think that's part of the community cost | 20:20 |
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| notmorgan | ttx: yep. | 20:20 |
| flaper87 | I think the technical motivations behind Golang are fine but the community aspect of this change keeps worrying me. | 20:20 |
| ttx | but if we want to enable dataplany things, I think that a cost we need to accept to pay | 20:20 |
| thingee | bswartz: from notmyname's messages to the ML, while it's not impossible to achieve the same without enough time investment, it's picking the right tool to start, | 20:20 |
| dtroyer | annegentle: I never saw approval as a commitment of existing resources to carry the load, and I don't think it should be | 20:20 |
| timsim | greghaynes: The single case being swift? or Designate? | 20:20 |
| greghaynes | timsim: swift | 20:20 |
| thingee | /without/with/ | 20:20 |
| annegentle | ttx I still sense the community cost is too high. | 20:21 |
| ttx | annegentle: explain ? | 20:21 |
| annegentle | dtroyer hence my concern as someone who needs more community resources. | 20:21 |
| dims_ | annegentle : what would reduce community cost? | 20:21 |
| ttx | annegentle: in a specific team cost, or just general community desintegration ? | 20:21 |
| notmyname | bswartz: there more (and "realer") data in a talk from the tokyo summit https://www.openstack.org/summit/tokyo-2015/videos/presentation/omg-objects-the-unscaly-underbelly-of-openstack-swift | 20:22 |
| annegentle | ttx team costs. spreading out the burden for tooling | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I believe it'd affect both, tbh. There's a single project impact and a broader impact | 20:22 |
| dims_ | annegentle : fair point | 20:22 |
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| mugsie | annegentle: what tooling are you thinking of? | 20:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | so there is totally a need for resources for to maintain the go related infrastructure, thats not small | 20:22 |
| ttx | annegentle: for release management the costs are minor. Infra seems to be on top of what would be required... any other team with concerns ? | 20:22 |
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| johnthetubaguy | infra stuff, docs stuff, etc | 20:22 |
| annegentle | mugsie infra, docs, test, packaging, operating | 20:22 |
| mugsie | docs should not be affected for exam ple | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : every cross project team has tools that work with projects in one way or another | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | ttx: annegentle I'd add oslo in there too | 20:23 |
| annegentle | mugsie my understanding is a desire to support golang docs | 20:23 |
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| ttx | hmm | 20:23 |
| mugsie | for internal docs, but shpinx for "naritive" docs | 20:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | (adds translation to the above list) | 20:23 |
| fungi | my biggest concern for a "community cost" is finding a good answer as to how to get ahead of the inevitable "us vs. them" split that will ensue if we have some people working only on python and some working only on go | 20:23 |
| mugsie | at least that was the plan that last I heard | 20:23 |
| annegentle | mugsie also while infra stands up go infrastructure, we don't get them to work on a spec that has been written twice in the last two years. http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/doc-publishing.html | 20:23 |
| notmyname | fungi: any different than people working on neutron vs people working on horizon? | 20:24 |
| clarkb | fungi: there is also a third party with high overhead. The people that necessarily work in both worlds to fight off the wolves acusing them of breaking things constantly | 20:24 |
| ttx | Frankly, I don't think we can support smart/dataplany things without adding a language that several projects have found useful to deliver such things. I'm not convinced we should be in the business of doing domain-specific smart things though | 20:24 |
| notmyname | fungi: there isn't a "vs". we all make openstack. | 20:24 |
| fungi | notmyname: true. we're definitely trying to break down silos already and get everyone to work on everything | 20:24 |
| fungi | that's teh point of the project-teams gathering | 20:24 |
| sdague | ttx: so that feels like a different resolution you want to propose | 20:24 |
| russellb | ttx: agree that ideally we should not | 20:24 |
| mestery | sdague: ++ | 20:24 |
| russellb | no more than necessary / last resort | 20:24 |
| russellb | or pre-existing .. | 20:24 |
| notmorgan | ttx: 100% agreeed we must have a language to deliver these things if we support that | 20:24 |
| sdague | which we'd kind of want to resolve before we ask the specific go question, right? | 20:25 |
| annegentle | I don't think it's about a split or schism. It's about "what do I work on to make OpenStack better?" | 20:25 |
| ttx | sdague: one that would make this one irrelevant, but yes. This resolution basically unearthed a real question that has been there below the surface forever | 20:25 |
| dims_ | annegentle : ++ | 20:25 |
| fungi | so i'm less concerned if we significantly increase the costs of participating for people who only want to focus on "part of openstack" | 20:25 |
| thingee | sdague: yes | 20:25 |
| annegentle | fungi ah, interesting. | 20:25 |
| amrith | fungi, that's an interesting view. | 20:25 |
| fungi | means it's time for me to bone up on go programming | 20:25 |
| amrith | I think most people participate only on a 'part of openstack' | 20:25 |
| dtroyer | fungi: ++ | 20:25 |
| sdague | right, I guess you could see the early rumblings of it in the zaqar vote | 20:26 |
| ttx | If we want to be all thongs to all people, we'll need more languages | 20:26 |
| notmyname | fungi: you and me both ;-) | 20:26 |
| ttx | things* | 20:26 |
| dims_ | :) | 20:26 |
| * amrith looks around and sees that edleafe isn't nearby so says C# .NET and runs away | 20:26 | |
| annegentle | amrith true and it makes us as a whole look like we're slow, say, trying to get API reference standards for example | 20:26 |
| dtroyer | ttx: I don't think we should beall things to all people, but I also don't think that's the counter here | 20:26 |
| ttx | I'm just not convinced we should be in the business of writing a database or an hypervisor or a message queue. I think we are in the business of integrating those things | 20:27 |
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| * edleafe laughs at amrith | 20:27 | |
| russellb | ttx: agreed with that. | 20:27 |
| thingee | ttx: +1 | 20:27 |
| amrith | :{ | 20:27 |
| mestery | ttx: +1 | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | so, i am inclined to agree, i will be against writing a database (in openstack) or a hypervisor. | 20:27 |
| amrith | annegentle, I see what you mean (and I agree with you). | 20:27 |
| dougwig | if i did write a database, it wouldn't be in python. | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | not to say they couldn't be part of the larger ecosystem. | 20:27 |
| amrith | I'm curious though about fungi's comment. something to think about there. | 20:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: that feels correct | 20:27 |
| notmorgan | dougwig: regardless of the underlying language | 20:27 |
| ttx | object storage now... is in the grey area. But still sufficiently in the white zone so that it kinda need another language to do things well | 20:28 |
| annegentle | As I look at all the REST APIs that need docs, it's possible there are 30 of them. 10 have docs. That has nothing to do with "do we add golang?" and that's my concern for OpenStack as a whole. Distraction by governance. | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | ttx: why is it in the grey area? | 20:28 |
| notmyname | ttx: and I'd phrase that as "swift integrates different persistent storage technologies today". but yes, it has a data plane API instead of provisioning object storage systems | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | ttx: why is object storage special? | 20:28 |
| mugsie | annegentle: 10 have docs on the api-site | 20:28 |
| edleafe | There's a huge difference between only working on part of OpenStack and only caring about part of OpenStack | 20:28 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: it's where the split between api and data plane ends up in object store | 20:28 |
| annegentle | mugsie 30 exist in projects.yaml | 20:28 |
| greghaynes | that is what is going on with swift though, and thats why they need a new language at the end of the day - they are basically a database | 20:28 |
| mugsie | yeah, but other projects are doc'd else where | 20:28 |
| annegentle | mugsie and all are moving off api-site. | 20:29 |
| ttx | dhellmann: it's arguably more high-level than a database or a hypervisor ? | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: well, it feels data to me | 20:29 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: it's a different place than most openstack-projects. | 20:29 |
| annegentle | mugsie in their repos with no collective website for end-users to use | 20:29 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: think of it more like "API" users interact with and "bits that put things on disk" | 20:29 |
| annegentle | mugsie we can talk more about it after the golang discussion if you're curious | 20:29 |
| * amrith agrees with greghaynes; i know of zero high performance databases written in Python. | 20:29 | |
| dhellmann | ttx: gnocchi is a database built on top of an object storage | 20:29 |
| bswartz | dhellmann: swift is special because the API and the implementation of the API are not separate things | 20:29 |
| flaper87 | notmorgan: glance ? :P | 20:29 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: the API has to be some-what dataplane-y to succeed. you don't make swift api to interact with. | 20:29 |
| mugsie | annegentle: I would argue that was around tooling / timing. as soon as the os-api-ref was done, we started moving | 20:29 |
| * flaper87 ducks | 20:29 | |
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| dhellmann | bswartz : that's an implementation detail of swift, though, isn't it? | 20:30 |
| ttx | greghaynes: yeah, we want go because we are writing a sort of database. It feels like we should ask ourselves the question of whether that's what we should be doing... before we add the language | 20:30 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: no. that's a fundamental part of object storage | 20:30 |
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| notmorgan | flaper87: anyway you get it. object store is slightly different but it still is close enough to non-dataplane to not really raise flags. | 20:30 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we shoudl not be in the business of writing a time-series database either | 20:30 |
| bswartz | dhellmann: if we follow the model of cinder or manila, there would be a swift API the plugable implementations -- and some or most of those implementation would live outside the tent | 20:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: so swift doesn't have a plugin for ceph right? | 20:30 |
| notmorgan | flaper87: frm wher ethe split actually is. | 20:31 |
| greghaynes | ttx: agreed | 20:31 |
| notmyname | johnthetubaguy: that exists in the ecosystem | 20:31 |
| bswartz | and* plugable implementations | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ok. my point was just that "level" is relative | 20:31 |
| notmorgan | johnthetubaguy: my understanding is it easily could or be part of the ecosystem al.. what notmyname said | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : not that I'm aware of | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | bswartz : I agree | 20:31 |
| dougwig | so if an open-source implementation doesn't exist for some new service, you have to go elsewhere to build it? if the poppy folks had decided to write their own CDN stuff to include, we'd ask them to go elsewhere? how is that community building? is the big tent really just streamlined incubation for REST wrappers? | 20:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmyname: well its a swift API implementation, not a plugin to swift though? | 20:31 |
| annegentle | notmyname so why not have hummingbird in the ecosystem? I may have missed the reason spelled out in the thread. | 20:31 |
| mugsie | dougwig: ++ | 20:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | its not like abstracting the two systems to a common API | 20:31 |
| notmyname | johnthetubaguy: https://github.com/openstack/swift-ceph-backend | 20:32 |
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| notmorgan | johnthetubaguy: you can layer under the swift python api connection to librados. this isn't radosgw. | 20:32 |
| hogepodge | Swift not being pluggable is one of the biggest complaints I have on defcore enforcement | 20:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmyname: I stand corrected | 20:32 |
| notmyname | johnthetubaguy: also https://github.com/openstack/swiftonfile | 20:32 |
| dhellmann | let's not get side-tracked talking about pluggability | 20:32 |
| notmyname | and other proprietary stuff that NetApp, EMC, and others have built | 20:32 |
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| notmorgan | hogepodge: ^ i think that is really a misrepresentation as i've bene looking at this for a bit recently, actually wanted to ping you on that later today re: this (post meeting) | 20:32 |
| notmyname | hogepodge: but it is. just not where you want it to be pluggable | 20:32 |
| mugsie | should we drop octavia then, if we are not doing dataplane services. or is it OK if we have a data plane esq thing, that is plugable? | 20:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | so it seems odd to kick half of swift out of the big tent.. but is that what we are suggesting here? | 20:32 |
| ttx | annegentle: to come back to your objection ('cost is too high even if we agree we want dataplany things in') -- that means "no to golang" would have to be an option. I just don't know what the world would look like if we chose that option | 20:33 |
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| hogepodge | dhellmann language woukdnt be an issue if it were pluggable, but I'll step back | 20:33 |
| bswartz | johnthetubaguy: I would suggest kicking the go parts out and keeping the python parts in | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | hogepodge : I think I see where you're going, yeah | 20:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | but then we are streaming data in python, into go, which sounds... odd | 20:33 |
| mestery | So are we fundamentally coming back to ttx's question about openstack being wrappers for existing dataplane things? Feels like we are. | 20:33 |
| notmorgan | mestery: we are | 20:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I am really thinking, so what does this mean for swift | 20:34 |
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| dtroyer | mestery: and that feels like it is dangerously close to the "are we implementations or API specs" | 20:34 |
| thingee | I don | 20:34 |
| dougwig | doesn't that also boil down to, "if you want to innovate, go elsewhere" ? | 20:34 |
| amrith | well mestery are we saying wrappers or specifically 'python wrappers'? | 20:34 |
| mestery | dtroyer: Right | 20:34 |
| mestery | dougwig: That's what I'm trying to get at | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : maybe if octavia is a load balancer vs. configuring a load balancer | 20:34 |
| mestery | I mean, if we're saying that, where does that leave things like swift, octavia, etc.? | 20:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, we are saying we are API implementations, which is a slightly odd place I guess | 20:34 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: it's API plus glue | 20:35 |
| mestery | This seems to me to be a fundamental thing we're discussing now, with much greater impact than adding Golang | 20:35 |
| edleafe | dougwig: "innovate" doesn't mean "do it differently" | 20:35 |
| dims_ | our strength as a community is because of inclusiveness and choice... | 20:35 |
| mestery | johnthetubaguy: Exactly | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : we are the implementation of the abstraction layer | 20:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: true, I meant + glue | 20:35 |
| sdague | because a lot of things need a lot of glue to hold together | 20:35 |
| dougwig | edleafe: innovate also doesn't mean "always do it the same". | 20:35 |
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| ttx | OK, so we have two potential outcomes: yes to go and dataplany things, no to dataplany things (and no need for go). Does anyone think "no to go but yes to dataplany things" is an option ? | 20:35 |
| thingee | FWIW I don't think the streamlined stuff makes sense. I think people should just be using native apis of object stores. Projects like cinder that use swift and ceph today will back up can continue to provide an interface to those with some feature. | 20:35 |
| notmorgan | sdague: ++, but i use gaffer tape these days. | 20:35 |
| mugsie | ttx: depends on the "dataplany things definition" | 20:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | dims_: its also a big weakness, but thats a different discussion | 20:36 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: so independant of language, should the two projects being discussed be pushed away anyway? | 20:36 |
| amrith | ttx that is a hard quesiton. 'yes or no to go' is very specific but 'dataplany things' is many things to many people. | 20:36 |
| dims_ | dtroyer : i hope sincerely we don't do that | 20:36 |
| notmorgan | ttx: "no to go and yes to dataplane-y things" is not something i'd support | 20:36 |
| ttx | mugsie: I guess the question is.. can we really be in the business of smart things without a language for native optimized pieces | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | amrith: ++ | 20:36 |
| mestery | ttx: I don't think "no to go and yes to dataplane things" makes sense. | 20:36 |
| edleafe | dougwig: the point is that the language chosen doesn't make it more or less innovative | 20:37 |
| mugsie | ttx: ah. so a different question to "dataplaney things" | 20:37 |
| russellb | mestery: that's status quo right? | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : that's the question. I don't want to offer a knee-jerk answer, but "if one of these things is not like the others..." | 20:37 |
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| mestery | russellb: It appears to be yes | 20:37 |
| bswartz | dougwig: "if you want to innovate it a language other than python, go elsewhere" -- openstack can't and shouldn't do literally everything | 20:37 |
| notmorgan | russellb: pretty much. | 20:37 |
| thingee | ttx: notmyname has said in the ML it can still be done, it's just about having the best tool to avoid investing so much time. | 20:37 |
| dtroyer | dhellmann: we have a lot of housecleaning to do if that is the case | 20:37 |
| ttx | thingee: what can be done ? | 20:37 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer : indeed | 20:37 |
| dims_ | we are not even investing enough in moving to py34/pypy either... | 20:37 |
| * thingee looks to notmyname | 20:37 | |
| dougwig | edleafe, bswartz: there's not much innovation in rest wrappers, and that's all we'd be left with. | 20:37 |
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| dhellmann | dougwig : is nova a "rest wrapper"? | 20:38 |
| mestery | So, again: If we decline to accept Go waht does that mean for Swift and Designate here? | 20:38 |
| notmyname | thingee: don't get me wrong. I think it's a bad idea for the swift community to try to reinvent the golang runtime in python. is it possible? probably would be to some extent (hey, python is turing complete). but it wouldn't help any end user | 20:38 |
| dougwig | around libvirt, absolutely. | 20:38 |
| mestery | I understand the precedent it sets, but I guess we're telling them to move their Golang stuff somewhere else | 20:38 |
| sdague | dougwig: you are right, there is definitely no inovation in that million lines of code :) | 20:38 |
| russellb | certainly not that simple ... nova doesn't implement a hypervisor, but ti implements a significant control plane for many hypervisors | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | dougwig : I see some useful innovation there | 20:38 |
| greghaynes | Just to be clear - not accepting go as a generally OK solution does not imply not accepting the swift hummingbird code | 20:38 |
| mestery | Sorry, not accept Golang | 20:38 |
| mestery | *sigh*, mind slower than fingers | 20:39 |
| dougwig | sdague, dhellmann: don't rain on my hyperbolic parade. | 20:39 |
| russellb | similar to neutron not implementing a virtual switch, but it implements an extensive control plane implementation to orchestrate many virtual switches | 20:39 |
| ttx | greghaynes: how ? | 20:39 |
| russellb | "dataplany things" isn't easy to define | 20:39 |
| mestery | russellb: Agreed | 20:39 |
| ttx | russellb: especially if you say smart/dataplaney | 20:39 |
| greghaynes | that was a lot of false negatives, but we can still say that hummingbird is a special case and we can consider other special cases as they arise | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | russellb: one could even consider glance a dataplane thing, tbh | 20:39 |
| amrith | this conversation reminds me of long discussions I've seen when people first started using NoSQL databases. It was always 'one-size-fits-all' RDBMS (from one vendor) till someone brought up NoSQL. There was all of these same kinds of objections but today we are much better off in the world with the 'best database for the job'. I realize that there is a cost involved in accepting a new language but maybe we should | 20:39 |
| amrith | seriously consider whether this is an issue of being the right tool for the job, or just another tool for the job. | 20:39 |
| ttx | Although "anything that would require go" is I think a good starting point | 20:39 |
| dtroyer | flaper87: it is | 20:39 |
| dhellmann | russellb : if the purpose is to move data, and not to tell other services how to move data? | 20:39 |
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| notmyname | if the TC says "no" to golang or says swift can't land golang code, then that will lead to the situation of "here's the openstack code, but don't run it, use that other one over there instead" | 20:40 |
| ttx | notmyname: yeah, that would be silly | 20:40 |
| hogepodge | Like ceph | 20:40 |
| mestery | ttx notmyname: Yes, that would be silly | 20:40 |
| edleafe | amrith: agreed on the DB argument, but we don't have to test/maintain those projects | 20:40 |
| notmyname | ttx: that assumes you're not kicking swift out of openstack ;-) | 20:40 |
| ttx | which is why I don't think that's an option | 20:40 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: not going to happen if i can have any say at all. | 20:40 |
| dtroyer | ttx: so what options are left then? (remind us) | 20:41 |
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| notmorgan | notmyname: sorry to clarify, no kicking swift out is not a good/correct option | 20:41 |
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| notmorgan | notmyname: s/no// | 20:41 |
| sdague | ok, so this sounds like there is a set of people that would like to open this other issue around data plane services being part of OpenStack scope | 20:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I think we should talk about the API a second here, is that re-written in Go, for the swift thingy? | 20:41 |
| ttx | dtroyer: option 1: accept go, consider smart/dataplany things are totally fine as openstack projects | 20:41 |
| sdague | which needs to be resolved prior to the go resolution | 20:41 |
| notmyname | also, I'd like to be clear that the swift community (and myself personally) is not looking for a special dispensation for swift to do something. that's why we've been going through this: so that as a community we can find the right path forward | 20:41 |
| russellb | notmyname: ++ | 20:41 |
| amrith | edleafe, fair point. but the incremental effort was there (it was different). it was really the shift from 'this tool' to 'the right tool'. | 20:41 |
| notmorgan | notmyname: i personally appreciate it a lot | 20:41 |
| dims_ | notmyname : thanks for saying that | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : not yet, aiui, but we do already have folks talking about rewriting other parts of other services in go, just because they could | 20:42 |
| ttx | option 2: consider OpenSTack is just an integration engine, spin out the smart/dataplaney components as external projects, integrate them in openstack projects | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | ttx: are you planning to write a resolution for the dataplane issue? | 20:42 |
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| ttx | I'm not even sure that's a good idea | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | ok | 20:42 |
| mestery | heh | 20:42 |
| dtroyer | sdague: are the two options ttx just listed what you are referring to? | 20:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: its just if we say openstack is the API implementation, then that makes things trickier | 20:42 |
| ttx | I think that's a discussion we NEED to have | 20:42 |
| annegentle | help me understand why golang isn't pluggable into these projects? If the underlying implementation doesn't affect the user view API, is the concern leaky abstraction? Or contributor concerns? | 20:42 |
| ttx | because continue to hide it below the carpet won't do us any good | 20:42 |
| sdague | annegentle: because the python version is going to rot | 20:42 |
| flaper87 | ttx: I guess a topic for next week. | 20:42 |
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| ttx | It's probably a topic for the next cycle | 20:43 |
| ttx | It's a hard question | 20:43 |
| notmyname | johnthetubaguy: FWIW, the end-user-facing parts of swift are not currently being considered to be rewritten in golang. there's way too much ecosystem plugins that we can't support apart from python (hello wsgi middleware) | 20:43 |
| notmorgan | unfortunately, we need to address it sooner rather than later. | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : I think in this scenario, zarqar might be "dataplaney" but cue wouldn't be | 20:43 |
| edleafe | ttx: it's more than one question | 20:43 |
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| dims_ | we just ran out of time.. ttx (43 mins) | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | ttx: if it's for next cycle, how are we going to answer the go/no-go question? | 20:43 |
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| annegentle | sdague ok | 20:43 |
| ttx | MagnetoDB would be dataplany and Trove not | 20:43 |
| flaper87 | Zaqar and Glance are dataplane services, fwiw | 20:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmyname: OK, thanks, thats a good data point (and makes sense) | 20:44 |
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| ttx | yes, we need to move on | 20:44 |
| annegentle | notmyname super helpful, yes | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | So, we need to define very well what we mena | 20:44 |
| sdague | flaper87: glance is only about 1/2 dataplane, given how most people configure it | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | mena, even | 20:44 |
| annegentle | flaper87 heh | 20:44 |
| * mestery hands flaper87 coffee | 20:44 | |
| amrith | flaper87, not sure about glance but you know glance better than I do. | 20:44 |
| notmyname | sdague: as we do golang implementation, I'm not wanting to have both python and golang stuff long-term that do the same thing in swift. one implementation, one codebase | 20:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: +1 its tricker with glance | 20:44 |
| flaper87 | mestery: <3 | 20:44 |
| sdague | notmyname: right, and I 100% agree with that approach | 20:44 |
| ttx | I would like to check again if anyone thinks saying "no to Golang but we want smart/dataplany things in OpenStack" makes any sense. So far haven't seen anyone considering that would be a sane outcome | 20:44 |
| notmorgan | so i think this comes down to even more defined: Golang is "OK" but should only be used in the dataplane? | 20:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | notmyname: sdague: +1 | 20:45 |
| sdague | dueling backends when the team only is focused on one isn't a good situation for anyone | 20:45 |
| notmorgan | s/think this/is this? | 20:45 |
| dhellmann | ttx: no, that doesn't make a lot of sense | 20:45 |
| ttx | notmorgan: that would be an interesting way of phrasing "yes to golang" | 20:45 |
| flaper87 | amrith: sdague I'd honestly classify it as dataplane but it also depends on the backend. The API is certainly a data API. *shrugs* | 20:45 |
| * flaper87 stfu and lets ttx switch topics | 20:45 | |
| notmorgan | ttx: i think that makes me feel a lot better about this and resolves my internal conflicts | 20:45 |
| ttx | notmorgan: but I doubt we'll be able to police the use of golang once it's approved | 20:45 |
| notmorgan | ttx: guidelines are just that | 20:45 |
| amrith | flaper87 ++ | 20:45 |
| dims_ | ttx : don't know if we have to end up vetting every use of golang in projects.. | 20:45 |
| dims_ | right | 20:46 |
| ttx | ok, we need to move on -- I'll probably follow up with a thread (or someone else will) | 20:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | flaper87: I was thinking about ceph users, and folks where you upload/dowload straight to/from swift, etc | 20:46 |
| notmorgan | ttx: best effort, but recommendation is this and we can mandate a couple things to help push towards that. | 20:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | flaper87: but basically agreeing with both of you | 20:46 |
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| dims_ | notmorgan ++ | 20:46 |
| ttx | I'll also summarize that "no to golang but yes we still very much want smart/dataplany things in openstack" is actually not a very viable option | 20:46 |
| notmorgan | ttx: in short, i am for golang and officially recommending it is only used in dataplanes - and adding the "dataplane is ok" | 20:46 |
| dims_ | ttx agree | 20:46 |
| flaper87 | johnthetubaguy: prolly "dataplane" is not the right way to describe these set of services | 20:47 |
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| dims_ | notmorgan : +1 | 20:47 |
| edleafe | flaper87: +1 | 20:47 |
| ttx | I think that simplifies the whole cost/benefit discussion | 20:47 |
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| ttx | we need Go if we want to keep all projects we have today in openstack, as much as we needed JS if we wane | 20:47 |
| notmorgan | it strikes as much balance as we can, while remaining inclusive | 20:47 |
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| ttx | wanted Horizon in* | 20:47 |
| notmorgan | it doesn't mean we have to include every dataplane | 20:47 |
| thingee | ttx: move on :) | 20:47 |
| ttx | ok ok | 20:48 |
| dims_ | haha | 20:48 |
| ttx | #topic Add new project openstack-salt | 20:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | flaper87: ack | 20:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Add new project openstack-salt (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:48 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/314531 | 20:48 |
| ttx | That is another downstream packaging/deployment team, like the Ansible, Puppet, Chef ones... | 20:48 |
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| ttx | I feel like those were successful in having people collaborate on the same set of recipes/formulas rather than dozens of forks of varying quality | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | this topic feels like a breeze after the golang topic | 20:48 |
| ttx | So it feels like we should have one team for Salt as well | 20:48 |
| ttx | flaper87: we can't just have easy questions, sometimes the hard questions hit | 20:48 |
| dims_ | looks like 8 +1 Rollcall-Vote already :) | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | I'm a little disappointed in the choice of release model here, but welcome the team anyway | 20:49 |
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| * thingee was waiting for dhellmann to sign off on that | 20:49 | |
| anteaya | this is the second round of salt repos | 20:49 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: well, that can change at any point | 20:49 |
| ttx | The team pushing that is the tcpcloud guys, who did the fun IoT demo at the summit | 20:49 |
| notmorgan | i am ok with including salt, but i would much rather them be trailing | 20:49 |
| dims_ | dhellmann : we embrace them and then change their mind :) | 20:49 |
| anteaya | the first set got put in the attic | 20:49 |
| notmorgan | instead of "independant" | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : no, it can only change prior to the first milestone of a cycle | 20:49 |
| notmorgan | but i can't force a release model on people. | 20:50 |
| ttx | notmorgan, dhellmann: they could evolve over time | 20:50 |
| notmorgan | ttx: i would hope they do. | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | yeah, they can change it next cycle if they end up not liking the outcome this time | 20:50 |
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| thingee | mtreinish: yeah they have until R-18 | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | it's definitely not a blocker, I just wanted to make sure they were clear about the implications | 20:50 |
| ttx | you still have a couple of weeks to convince them to change it before n1 | 20:50 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I hope the move to trailing too, but yeah, it should be their choice | 20:50 |
| dims_ | dhellmann : agree | 20:50 |
| ttx | we could have that discussion again with them | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | if you like. I've explained it, they've signed off. I'm ok with leaving it for this cycle. I just wanted to state it for the record, lest they come back surprised at the end when we don't say the salt formulas are "part of newton" | 20:51 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm curious what becomes of the old stackforge/nova-salt-formula et al | 20:51 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ++ | 20:51 |
| fungi | we still have them all in git, only retired | 20:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | do they have a "single" version of salt that supports many versions of openstack, it wasn't clear if thats why they wanted independent? | 20:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, I should go ask them really | 20:52 |
| fungi | not a fan of slash-and-burn adding new repos to replace old repos rather than reactivating and continuing them | 20:52 |
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| ttx | fungi: is that something that could be fixed ? Or did they recreate new repos already ? | 20:53 |
| anteaya | fungi: agreed | 20:53 |
| fungi | they already have new repos, looks like | 20:53 |
| anteaya | which was my argument when I first found out new repos had been created | 20:53 |
| fungi | water under teh bridge now, but not a precedent i like to set | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : that was my impression | 20:54 |
| ttx | ok, no more objections ? | 20:54 |
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| fungi | their new replacement repos are, e.g., openstack/salt-formula-nova | 20:54 |
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| notmorgan | no objections as long as they understand that what independant really means. | 20:54 |
| ttx | we'll make sure of that. | 20:55 |
| ttx | ok, approving | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | notmorgan: all will be made clear in time | 20:55 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:55 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | where are people planning to stay in ann arbor? | 20:55 |
| annegentle | downtown dhellmann for me | 20:55 |
| annegentle | dhellmann can't recall the name of the hotel but it was the only one in the corp. system I could get :) | 20:56 |
| russellb | i booked the courtyard in ann arbor | 20:56 |
| ttx | dhellmann: downtown... Might try one of those B&B that gothicmindfood suggested | 20:56 |
| mestery | I was thinking the Sheraton | 20:56 |
| * flaper87 takes note as he hasn't booked anything yet | 20:56 | |
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| notmorgan | ttx: trust gothicmindfood's suggestions for sure. | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | mestery : I'm in the sheraton | 20:56 |
| russellb | mestery: mine is next door to the sheraton | 20:56 |
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| dims_ | is having a tag named "co-installable" useful information? (projects that have been tested together... list of projects subject to requirements process) | 20:56 |
| mestery | dhellmann russellb: Ack :) | 20:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I was going to ask about the OSIC bug bash/smash event thing | 20:56 |
| mtreinish | dims_: I like that idea | 20:56 |
| * gothicmindfood recommends things downtown ann-arbory | 20:57 | |
| johnthetubaguy | OSIC is thinking of doing another one, as wondering about the best date | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am promised an ML thread about it | 20:57 |
| dims_ | mtreinish : ok i'll ping you later when i have some initial draft | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : earlier in the cycle, and not on a milestone date | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | or week even | 20:57 |
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| johnthetubaguy | just after n-2 is the current suggestion | 20:57 |
| mtreinish | dims_: ok cool | 20:57 |
| anteaya | johnthetubaguy: didn't flanders start one on the usercomittee ml? | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | ideally not clashing with midcycles | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | anteaya: oh, possibly | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | johnthetubaguy : that seems ok-ish from a release perspective | 20:57 |
| annegentle | dims_ I think it would be useful | 20:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: yeah, that seems less terrible to me at least | 20:58 |
| amrith | dhellmann, did you have a place in mind? | 20:58 |
| anteaya | johnthetubaguy: I thought I saw one, I think they call it hackfest | 20:58 |
| dims_ | thanks annegentle. will ping you too | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | amrith : for ann arbor? I'm going to be at the sheraton | 20:58 |
| amrith | dhellmann, yes. thx | 20:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | anteaya: yeah, that sounds right, the name seems to change each year | 20:58 |
| amrith | seems like that's where the majority are. | 20:58 |
| rockyg | anteaya, that's a hackathon in Guadalehara | 20:58 |
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| anteaya | johnthetubaguy: it does indeed | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | anteaya : oh, I thought that was something else | 20:58 |
| rockyg | Sorry bout the speelling | 20:58 |
| ttx | in other news, some people have complained about the TC meeting being just too noisy. Feel free to shout suggestions on how to fix that. I still would prefer not to have to use voicing to reduce parallel discussions, but maybe that's a solution to slow down the discussion | 20:58 |
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| anteaya | johnthetubaguy: I have OpenStack Hackathon: start to planning and recruiting as a subject line | 20:59 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: oh is that some other thing? | 20:59 |
| annegentle | I'm working on idea for docs tags, to show which project have certain types of docs. Also need to determine which projects need REST API docs. | 20:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | that could be different, I will take a peak | 20:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | annegentle: nice | 20:59 |
| rockyg | anteaya, yup, something else | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | anteaya : I thought so, but could be wrong | 20:59 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: the bug smash was pretty ineffective last time though. It would be better to post mortem and figure out a better approach I think | 20:59 |
| anteaya | johnthetubaguy dhellmann if I'm wrong do say so | 20:59 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: to be honest, when topics get too heated, it gets harder for me to follow all discussions. I try to just follow one but then I get distracted AND it feels bad to ignore the rest. Also, you never know when someone might actually say something on topic | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | sdague : I had word that other sites had better outcomes, but I agree in general | 21:00 |
| flaper87 | maybe it's just me | 21:00 |
| * flaper87 shrugs | 21:00 | |
| dhellmann | flaper87 : ++ | 21:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, it was hit and miss, where I went there were very few folks to start with | 21:00 |
| dtroyer | flaper87: not just you | 21:00 |
| ttx | I usually read scrollback and thenrepsond to an old question, further killing the discussion | 21:00 |
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| christx2 | hello from London | 21:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I will ask about some discussion on the format | 21:00 |
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| anteaya | christx2: stand by for the scientific meeting | 21:01 |
| anteaya | christx2: the tc meeting is in progress still | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | ah, we're over | 21:01 |
| ttx | flaper87: one alternative is to take turns to speak. It will slow down things dramatically, but maybe would be more productive | 21:01 |
| edleafe | flaper87: we should keep all those non-TC folks from posting :) | 21:01 |
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| ttx | alright, let's clear the room | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| * amrith runs for the door | 21:01 | |
| flaper87 | edleafe: HA! we like you | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: it's worth trying once | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 21:01:40 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-05-17-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | edleafe: they/you actually provide more value than noise usually | 21:01 |
| * rockyg picks up a broom and starts a nice little dust pile | 21:01 | |
| anteaya | now it is time for the scientific-wg meeting | 21:02 |
| flaper87 | ttx: edleafe ++ | 21:02 |
| b1airo | hi all, looks like it's over to the scientific-wg now! | 21:02 |
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| johnthetubaguy | dhellmann: +1 it can't hurt to try it | 21:02 |
| b1airo | #startmeeting scientific-wg | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 17 21:03:01 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is b1airo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:03 | |
| anteaya | b1airo: hello | 21:03 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scientific_wg' | 21:03 |
| oneswig | Greetings! | 21:03 |
| rockyg | o/ | 21:03 |
| james__ | Hi | 21:03 |
| b1airo | ah g'day there you are - the list of lurkers here is ridiculous | 21:03 |
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| rbudden | hello | 21:03 |
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| anteaya | b1airo: if you use the command #chair oneswig the Stig can also be chair | 21:03 |
| anteaya | b1airo: you are chair since you started the meeting | 21:03 |
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| b1airo | thanks anteaya | 21:04 |
| anteaya | welcome | 21:04 |
| b1airo | #chair oneswig | 21:04 |
| openstack | Current chairs: b1airo oneswig | 21:04 |
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| oneswig | ooh, the power | 21:04 |
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| b1airo | don't go all voldemort on us | 21:04 |
| anteaya | now it will recognize commands from either of you | 21:04 |
| CraigSterrett | o/ | 21:04 |
| b1airo | #topic roll-call | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll-call (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:05 | |
| dabukalam | o/ | 21:05 |
| * dfflanders yawns | 21:05 | |
| * dfflanders waking up | 21:05 | |
| oneswig | \o/ | 21:05 |
| james__ | \o/ | 21:05 |
| b1airo | any IRC first timers here for scientific-wg | 21:05 |
| b1airo | ? | 21:05 |
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| rbudden | kinda | 21:05 |
| james__ | I am from sanger | 21:05 |
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| rbudden | not new to IRC but new to the OpenStack IRC meetings | 21:05 |
| oneswig | certainly not an old hand at this | 21:05 |
| ptrlv | ditto here | 21:05 |
| b1airo | if you can shout out hello that'd be good - so we get an idea of who is actually participating | 21:06 |
| b1airo | rbudden: me too | 21:06 |
| rbudden | hello | 21:06 |
| dfflanders | g'day! | 21:06 |
| james__ | Hello | 21:06 |
| CraigSterrett | hello | 21:06 |
| oneswig | Ready? | 21:06 |
| rbudden | b1airo: yeah, I usually lurk in openstack-ironic | 21:06 |
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| oneswig | #topic Newton cycle activity planning and brainstorming | 21:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Newton cycle activity planning and brainstorming (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:07 | |
| b1airo | well this is my first time on IRC in months, was using it for our cloud here in australia but then moved over to slack so that the managery folks could get engaged easuer | 21:07 |
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| b1airo | *easier | 21:07 |
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| b1airo | first question / discussion point | 21:08 |
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| anteaya | very common usecase | 21:08 |
| oneswig | We have two meeting times, which is going to make it tricky to reach a split-brained consensus on things | 21:08 |
| oneswig | But we'll converge I expect | 21:09 |
| b1airo | is anyone aware of any specs we should be cognisant of? | 21:09 |
| anteaya | folks who want to agree find a way | 21:09 |
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| anteaya | well this group keeps mentioning the scheduler in nova | 21:09 |
| anteaya | is anyone following that work? | 21:09 |
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| anteaya | or attending the scheduler meetings? | 21:09 |
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| b1airo | i have to admit i have not yet done my usual post-summit spec perusal | 21:10 |
| oneswig | Not me but I'm interested in the scheduler's revised treatment of Ironic | 21:10 |
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| rbudden | not following yet, but had some discussions at the summit about it | 21:10 |
| oneswig | I'm also interested in the work on Ironic serial console support, while we are there | 21:10 |
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| anteaya | okay well whoever is interested in tracking scheduler decisions make themselves known so I can help you find meetings and specs | 21:11 |
| oneswig | A long-standing spec seems to be finally getting traction | 21:11 |
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| rbudden | the short story I was told is that they are aware a slew of issues and a major rewrite is under way | 21:11 |
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| rbudden | but i’d defer to their meetings for the full truth ;) | 21:11 |
| anteaya | for instance here is the scheduler team meeting info | 21:12 |
| anteaya | #link scheduler meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#Nova_Scheduler_Team_Meeting | 21:12 |
| oneswig | anteaya: thanks for that | 21:12 |
| rbudden | thanks | 21:12 |
| anteaya | welcome | 21:12 |
| b1airo | i think where we can add value here as a working group is in ppl discussing issues with the specs in this forum and then we can take that to the project on the mail-list or what have you. the problem i've found with this in the past is that, whilst you can comment on specs easily enough, you're just one little voice that (probably) no-one on the dev team knows. | 21:13 |
| b1airo | and of course gerrit is not that great for conversations | 21:13 |
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| dfflanders | +1 this is the purpose of the WG having task-forces per cycle | 21:13 |
| oneswig | I agree, I've found most issues raised from here have common cause with many others | 21:13 |
| anteaya | when you read the meeting minutes anything with #link stands out | 21:13 |
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| anteaya | b1airo: agreed | 21:14 |
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| b1airo | ok so - | 21:14 |
| dabukalam | b1airo: I've also noticed that in the past, groups that meet regularly on IRC gain traction slowly over time if they're consistent, which means that little voice turns into a much larger and well-respected voice. | 21:14 |
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| b1airo | #action ALL: raise specs of interest to the working-group on the mailing list | 21:14 |
| oneswig | #agreed collective input on specs is good | 21:14 |
| dfflanders | as to which of the task-forces in this WG does the scheduler work align to? | 21:14 |
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| anteaya | plus you can link to meeting logs as they are archived | 21:15 |
| anteaya | so that helps to show that a group has made a decision | 21:15 |
| anteaya | or is in accord | 21:15 |
| anteaya | dabukalam: very much so | 21:15 |
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| b1airo | dfflanders: no clear one - but accounting might be closest | 21:15 |
| b1airo | also ironic | 21:15 |
| christx2 | nuage here - interested in ironic / baremetal use cases | 21:15 |
| rbudden | there are definitely scheduler issues with ironic | 21:16 |
| b1airo | hi christx2 | 21:16 |
| christx2 | hi | 21:16 |
| dfflanders | important that we have a clear statement for what we are jointly representing on behalf of the user. | 21:16 |
| dfflanders | scientific users | 21:16 |
| LyleWinton | slash research users. ;) | 21:17 |
| b1airo | dfflanders: are you raising "mission statement" as a point of discussion? | 21:17 |
| oneswig | Shall we go through the four tasks in turn | 21:17 |
| dfflanders | +1 | 21:17 |
| b1airo | one item of house-keeping first | 21:17 |
| oneswig | go ahead | 21:17 |
| anteaya | dfflanders: well for starters I think it is important for those interested to start tracking the existing work | 21:17 |
| b1airo | task-tracking - is everyone happy to use trello for the moment? | 21:18 |
| anteaya | setting up barriers to doing that actually slows things down | 21:18 |
| dfflanders | blairo +1 | 21:18 |
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| b1airo | (we can defer to established infra practices where appropriate, but storyboard seems a bit overkill for us at this point) | 21:18 |
| oneswig | I am happy with trello for tracking where we are | 21:18 |
| oneswig | I don't think we'll overflow it | 21:18 |
| james__ | I dislike trello however.... if that is the standard | 21:19 |
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| b1airo | i suspect it'll mainly be used by oneswig and i anyway | 21:19 |
| anteaya | james__: it isn't | 21:19 |
| dfflanders | yes good way for chairs to keep track of task-force progress | 21:19 |
| b1airo | more of a chair coordination thing, but useful to ping people assigned to tasks and gather extra details in one place | 21:20 |
| anteaya | can we find other words that don't militarize the effort? | 21:20 |
| dfflanders | anteaya: glad to let's discuss on the user-committee mailing list. | 21:20 |
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| anteaya | or here | 21:20 |
| oneswig | Given Trello has zero setup effort, little is lost if we decide to drop it again | 21:20 |
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| anteaya | the point of the meeting is to discuss thing | 21:21 |
| anteaya | s | 21:21 |
| b1airo | sorry anteaya, which words? | 21:21 |
| anteaya | not just punt everything to a mailing list | 21:21 |
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| anteaya | task force | 21:21 |
| b1airo | ah right | 21:21 |
| anteaya | I don't think the effort needs militarizing | 21:21 |
| b1airo | sub-team ? | 21:21 |
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| oneswig | activity? | 21:21 |
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| anteaya | b1airo: that works | 21:22 |
| b1airo | red-wing ;-) | 21:22 |
| anteaya | oneswig: so does that | 21:22 |
| oneswig | activity sub-team?? | 21:22 |
| anteaya | sure | 21:22 |
| oneswig | any others? | 21:22 |
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| b1airo | i like "activity" | 21:22 |
| anteaya | I don't know what red-wing means | 21:22 |
| anteaya | I think blackbird on that | 21:22 |
| anteaya | also noone needs to be blessed to attend any meeting or track and comment on any spec | 21:22 |
| dfflanders | time check | 21:23 |
| anteaya | so please don't feel you need permission from anyone to do so, if you are interested in a thing, track it | 21:23 |
| oneswig | #agreed we'll call the activities "activities" from here on | 21:23 |
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| jmlowe | so is the scientific meeting still going? I'm a bit late | 21:23 |
| oneswig | #topic User Stories | 21:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "User Stories (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:23 | |
| oneswig | Hi Mike | 21:23 |
| b1airo | hi jmlowe - yep | 21:23 |
| jmlowe | whew | 21:23 |
| rbudden | hello Mike | 21:23 |
| jmlowe | Hey Bob | 21:24 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: welcome, can you read the channel topic in your irc client? | 21:24 |
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| qwebirc65959 | join | 21:24 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: that is a good way to see what activity is currently ongoing in a channel | 21:24 |
| jmlowe | ah, yeah, just noticed | 21:24 |
| jmlowe | thanks | 21:24 |
| oneswig | It seems the foundation's got some doubts about the wiki | 21:24 |
| anteaya | jmlowe: awesome | 21:24 |
| anteaya | oneswig: not the foundation | 21:24 |
| oneswig | Is there a more appropriate way of storing information? | 21:24 |
| anteaya | the infra team | 21:24 |
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| b1airo | the infra team | 21:24 |
| anteaya | which maintains the wiki | 21:24 |
| oneswig | anteaya: right | 21:25 |
| anteaya | use the wiki for now | 21:25 |
| qwebirc65959 | boas@systemfabricworks.com join | 21:25 |
| oneswig | anteaya: was there a decision or still collecting feedback on wiki uses? | 21:25 |
| oneswig | Hello Bill | 21:25 |
| b1airo | my first question re. user stories is, is there a standard we need to follow - i assume there is just a repo somewhere with an RST template and away we go? | 21:25 |
| oneswig | Several levels of standards I think | 21:26 |
| qwebirc65959 | Hi Stig | 21:26 |
| leong | for the user story, the product wg has a template and repo | 21:26 |
| b1airo | hi Bill (qwebirc65959) | 21:26 |
| oneswig | I need to read some of them - should have prepared | 21:26 |
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| qwebirc65959 | hi Blair | 21:26 |
| anteaya | we just have a long term direction of finding information sharing tools that are less attractive to spammers | 21:26 |
| anteaya | the decision was to take the next year and find tools that are less attractive to spammers | 21:26 |
| anteaya | oneswig: so use the wiki as you need to | 21:26 |
| rockyg | leong, ++ You can start by using the Prod wg template | 21:26 |
| oneswig | #action oneswig to read user stories and understand their scoping | 21:26 |
| leong | here's a link the the product wg user story repo | 21:27 |
| leong | #link product_wg user story repo: https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/tree/master/user-stories/proposed | 21:27 |
| b1airo | oneswig, yes i think it's the scoping that i'm wondering about too | 21:27 |
| oneswig | leong: thanks | 21:27 |
| b1airo | that will help us determine what stories we might contribute | 21:27 |
| leong | the product wg follow the openstack development flow and using gerrit to track | 21:27 |
| oneswig | But there are also reference architectures, which are more detailed, right? | 21:27 |
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| leong | the template can be found here: | 21:27 |
| b1airo | i get the feeling it's closer to personas that specific use-cases, but just guessing really | 21:28 |
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| leong | #link product_wg user story template: https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/blob/master/user-story-template.rst | 21:28 |
| leong | Enterprise WG is working on a series of Reference Architectire | 21:28 |
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| ptrlv | Each activity has an etherpad ready to go right? was the intention to distill info into those? eg. | 21:28 |
| oneswig | leong: thanks, I'll look for those too and report back | 21:29 |
| ptrlv | #link stories https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scientific-wg-austin-summit-stories | 21:29 |
| b1airo | #link https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/blob/master/HACKING.rst looks like a good place to start reading oneswig | 21:29 |
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| b1airo | ptrlv: that's one option for sure | 21:29 |
| oneswig | b1airo: thanks | 21:29 |
| dc_mattj | sorry all, had a family A&E visit so missed the first half of this meeting | 21:30 |
| christx2 | if someone can pass the nova scheduler issues with ironic on, a review item - that would be great | 21:30 |
| b1airo | dc_mattj: yikes! | 21:30 |
| dc_mattj | nothing serious in the end, but obviously takes hours | 21:30 |
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| oneswig | dc_mattj: thanks for making it | 21:30 |
| james__ | /o\ dc_mattj | 21:30 |
| christx2 | we are doing work on provisioning networks to ironic baremetal instances | 21:31 |
| christx2 | thanks | 21:31 |
| oneswig | ptrlv: are you thinking for planning here and now or tracking as we go along? | 21:31 |
| oneswig | christx2: don't think we've got on to that yet | 21:31 |
| b1airo | christx2: what action did you want there - "raise nova-scheduler issues with ironic for further discussion on mailing list" ? | 21:32 |
| b1airo | ok, let's hold it and finish user-stories | 21:32 |
| LyleWinton | Not sure about the rest of you, but thinking we should look for use cases with community wide traction. How do we discuss/determine which these are? | 21:32 |
| dc_mattj | sorry if you guys have already done this, but do you have an open ether pad I can refer to ? | 21:33 |
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| anteaya | if we can lets use links to git.openstack.org | 21:33 |
| anteaya | git.openstack.org is the infra supported servers | 21:33 |
| anteaya | github is propriatary and we don't have control over their decisions | 21:33 |
| anteaya | so links to git.openstack.org is preferred please | 21:33 |
| anteaya | christx2: what do you mean? | 21:33 |
| anteaya | LyleWinton: community wide meaning scientific community wide? | 21:33 |
| ptrlv | oneswig: I was thinking the main etherpad was a mess and we could summarize things a little more coherently. Dunno, what did you intend those other pads for? | 21:33 |
| oneswig | LyleWinton: I think every use case I've heard of has some differences but much in common | 21:33 |
| b1airo | i think we have LyleWinton (in the summit meetings) - but we can be always open to new stuff if there are ppl willing to work | 21:33 |
| LyleWinton | Yep | 21:33 |
| oneswig | LyleWinton: it might come down to who comes forward to document their case | 21:33 |
| christx2 | oneswig: cool, will hang back until we do.. | 21:34 |
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| anteaya | LyleWinton: Yep to what? | 21:34 |
| LyleWinton | Sure, happy to let it evolve. | 21:34 |
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| LyleWinton | (yep to "community wide meaning scientific community wide?") | 21:34 |
| b1airo | ptrlv: actually that's another action i think - moving some etherpad content to wiki and also creating a parking lot | 21:34 |
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| oneswig | Etherpads: it's a good idea ptrlv, we can revive those from the summit session | 21:35 |
| anteaya | LyleWinton: ah thank you | 21:35 |
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| anteaya | LyleWinton: if you are replying to a specific querant it helps to use the querant's name | 21:35 |
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| anteaya | for instance for you in my client I type Ly and hit the tab button | 21:35 |
| dc_mattj | oneswig: probably good to start some new ones with the main points as topics, and with the summit ones linked | 21:35 |
| anteaya | and you name autocompletes | 21:36 |
| LyleWinton | anteaya: will do. IRC noob | 21:36 |
| anteaya | LyleWinton: so you know I am replying to you | 21:36 |
| b1airo | we should make it a goal of this cycle to not create the (effectively) the same etherpad again in Barcelona (which seems to happen more than it should) | 21:36 |
| anteaya | LyleWinton: yup, I know, glad you are here, happy to support the learning process | 21:36 |
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| dc_mattj | blairo: +1 | 21:36 |
| oneswig | There's an action outstanding for solidifying some of the etherpad notes into wiki statements, can anyone take it (or shall I?) | 21:36 |
| leong | blairo +1 | 21:36 |
| b1airo | i will | 21:36 |
| oneswig | b1airo: good man | 21:37 |
| b1airo | #action b1airo to "solidify" etherpad notes to wiki | 21:37 |
| oneswig | #action b1airo to collect notes from etherpads from sessions into WG wiki | 21:37 |
| b1airo | lol | 21:37 |
| oneswig | split brain! | 21:37 |
| dc_mattj | look at that for teamwork | 21:37 |
| oneswig | you drive :-) | 21:37 |
| b1airo | well, there are two main etherpads | 21:37 |
| anteaya | if one of you does #undo the last command is removed from the minutes | 21:37 |
| oneswig | how to arbitrate? | 21:37 |
| oneswig | I will | 21:38 |
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| b1airo | rock, paper, scissors ...? ;-) | 21:38 |
| dc_mattj | vote | 21:38 |
| oneswig | #undo | 21:38 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0xa7f8a10> | 21:38 |
| oneswig | phew | 21:38 |
| b1airo | that was a close one | 21:38 |
| oneswig | OK, next item? | 21:38 |
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| b1airo | kinx | 21:38 |
| LyleWinton | One more agreement coming from the Austin friday morning face to face: We'd like to promote our scientific cloud profiles but we were unsure where. | 21:38 |
| b1airo | *jinx | 21:38 |
| ptrlv | #link austin-pad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scientific-wg-austin-summit-agenda | 21:38 |
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| b1airo | LyleWinton, i think that'll come with a new page on openstack.org | 21:39 |
| oneswig | LyleWinton: Is this the register of community clouds? | 21:39 |
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| b1airo | amirite dfflanders ? | 21:39 |
| b1airo | however, we could get started now with a wiki page | 21:39 |
| LyleWinton | There were 2 thoughts. First https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/science-clouds which we updated. The second, more coming from flanders afterwards, was to work on a new Marketplace category for community/scientific could listsing. | 21:40 |
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| leong | LyleWinton you mean something like http://www.openstack.org/enterprise | 21:40 |
| oneswig | There was a short list gathered, but it will need details on access, availability etc | 21:40 |
| b1airo | ok cool. i'm gonna take that into my wiki update action then | 21:40 |
| oneswig | leong: great page! yes! | 21:40 |
| leong | e.g. http://www.openstack.org/scientific? | 21:41 |
| b1airo | #action b1airo to wiki-ify #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/science-clouds | 21:41 |
| LyleWinton | Like https://www.openstack.org/marketplace/public-clouds/ | 21:41 |
| b1airo | ok, we need to move onto bare-metal | 21:41 |
| oneswig | When does a publ | 21:41 |
| oneswig | public cloud become a science cloud? | 21:41 |
| b1airo | #topic bare-metal | 21:41 |
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| LyleWinton | leong: that would also be cool! | 21:42 |
| b1airo | oneswig, good question... maybe when it is not-for-profit ? | 21:42 |
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| james__ | Its to do with the work load I would say | 21:42 |
| LyleWinton | A science cloud has community access restrictions. | 21:42 |
| anteaya | b1airo: oh I think that would be a ball of yarn | 21:42 |
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| james__ | science is more cpu heavy than most web serving for example | 21:42 |
| b1airo | LyleWinton, yes good point | 21:43 |
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| anteaya | b1airo: I think have you and oneswig decide what goes on the page for now and then build criteria from that | 21:43 |
| james__ | There is commericial and accedemic science clouds | 21:43 |
| leong | i think there are two things: if you are talking about offering a scientific cloud for people to use, that might fall under the marketplacce | 21:43 |
| oneswig | OK, so there could be distinctions | 21:43 |
| oneswig | Ironic anyone? | 21:43 |
| b1airo | christx2? | 21:44 |
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| rbudden | we use Ironic | 21:44 |
| oneswig | I'm restating, I'm interested in tracking the serial console work. Had some good discussions with the chameleon team wrt this at the summit | 21:44 |
| rbudden | so I’m interested | 21:44 |
| LyleWinton | james__: There's commercial use of cloud from scientific, but that's different. I think we have to keep it a simple definition. | 21:44 |
| christx2 | hi | 21:44 |
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| LyleWinton | oneswig: link to serial console work? | 21:44 |
| christx2 | primary use cases are network provisioning to a baremetal instance | 21:44 |
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| anteaya | oneswig: the chameleon team? | 21:45 |
| oneswig | #link serial console etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ironic-newton-summit-console | 21:45 |
| christx2 | i heard earlier that ironic is broken, so i'm curious who is using it and what network topologies they use | 21:45 |
| james__ | One worry about ironic is in the clean up | 21:45 |
| oneswig | Chameleon is an NSF project, bare metal research cloud | 21:45 |
| b1airo | christx2, which part of the network provisioning? tenant and provider, or provisioning network? | 21:45 |
| dc_mattj | oneswig: us public clouds will take anyone who gives us money | 21:45 |
| christx2 | tenant | 21:46 |
| anteaya | christx2: can you expand on 'I heard earlier that ironic is broken'? | 21:46 |
| christx2 | on the channel earlier a comment was made "nova scheduler issues affecting ironic" | 21:46 |
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| james__ | +1 to "broken" for tenants. | 21:46 |
| LyleWinton | dc_mattj: Us community clouds will take anyone from the community... and possibly who give us money... ;) | 21:46 |
| dc_mattj | LyleWinton: lol | 21:46 |
| ptrlv | the bare-metal/ironic discussion in austin was mostly rbudden's experience | 21:47 |
| oneswig | So what I know about tenant networking in Ironic is that you need a provisioning network which probably has to be flat. Additional networks can be segmented (vlans) | 21:47 |
| b1airo | i don't know really anything current about ironic, but i'm surprised by the notion that tenant networks are "broken", there must be more to it | 21:47 |
| rbudden | christx2: we have nova scheduler issues that cause issues provisioning our cluster | 21:47 |
| ptrlv | rbudden: I recall much interest from other so maybe you cansummarize your stuff in more detail | 21:47 |
| christx2 | okay, is this documented and which release of openstack? | 21:47 |
| b1airo | oneswig, surely segmentation requirement goes without saying | 21:47 |
| oneswig | There was a talk on it at Tokyo, I'll dig for it | 21:47 |
| b1airo | (assuming you want tenant networks for isolation in the first place) | 21:47 |
| christx2 | yep, the vlan segmentation is what we are targeting with what we do | 21:47 |
| james__ | I have heard things around accounting, cleaning the machine out. | 21:48 |
| dc_mattj | its quite interesting there seems to be a lot of this around ironic - is there a definitive document which says what works, what's broken etc. ? | 21:48 |
| rbudden | ptrlv: main overview at PSC is that we have an 800+ node HPC cluster being managed by Ironic | 21:48 |
| christx2 | okay, got it. the HW we use is HP and interfacing ilo | 21:48 |
| b1airo | hypervisor support matrix? | 21:48 |
| dc_mattj | is it still the case that everything has to be in the same L2 domain ? | 21:48 |
| ptrlv | rbudden: yeah, more thinking that you hit problem which others hit too | 21:48 |
| james__ | For example the clean out I have heard doesn't work on "standard" ilo's | 21:48 |
| oneswig | #link tenant network isolation in ironic https://www.openstack.org/videos/video/tokyo-1929 | 21:48 |
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| rbudden | ptrlv: we’ve hit some issues with the largest issue being the nova scheduler and race conditions when trying to simultaneous provision large portions of the cluster | 21:49 |
| b1airo | rbudden, cool! but i guess you don't have ironic managing any tenant isolation | 21:49 |
| rbudden | no, we aren’t using Neutron | 21:49 |
| b1airo | just for your own provisioning management? | 21:49 |
| oneswig | dc_mattj: unfortunately there is only one document - python sources | 21:49 |
| oneswig | unfair | 21:49 |
| b1airo | then you run a regular batch-system over it? | 21:49 |
| anteaya | oneswig: thank you | 21:50 |
| anteaya | christx2: on which channel? | 21:50 |
| anteaya | jroll: ^^ | 21:50 |
| anteaya | b1airo: thank you, I also am curious about details on this assertion | 21:50 |
| anteaya | I'm still not clear where the asserstion came from that anything is broken | 21:50 |
| rbudden | b1airo: correct, we run Slurm as the default for doing batch scheduling, then use Puppet to dynamically configure the nodes into things like separate Hadoop clusters, etc. when necessary | 21:50 |
| jpr | science is also code word for pets. ;) so we also want to encourage good cloud dev habits. acknowledging that there will be a period of adoption/pain as app deployment models migrate. | 21:50 |
| james__ | Comments from the manchester meetup for me. | 21:50 |
| * jroll listens | 21:50 | |
| b1airo | jpr, yes re. pets :-) | 21:50 |
| rbudden | b1airo: also use Slurm to spin up Nova Computes if we need VMs on Bridges PVT | 21:50 |
| christx2 | anteaya: not sure what you mean | 21:50 |
| rbudden | Ironic is mainly for reimaging the machine | 21:50 |
| anteaya | jroll: apparently someone somewhere said ironic is broken | 21:51 |
| christx2 | yes, on this channel | 21:51 |
| anteaya | jroll: so now christx2 is repeating that ironic is broken | 21:51 |
| rockyg | Re: what is a science cloud? I think what many think of as science clouds are clouds that provide resources to run scientific investigations. So, science "loads." | 21:51 |
| anteaya | jroll: but I haven't found out any details | 21:51 |
| rockyg | There are lots of simulations that don't use pets, though. | 21:51 |
| anteaya | christx2: during this meeting? | 21:51 |
| jroll | christx2: what's broken? I see things about networking | 21:51 |
| rbudden | b1airo: we don’t reimage frequently, mainly due to the nova scheduler issues and it taking 1.5 days to reimage the entire cluster ;) | 21:51 |
| christx2 | yeah | 21:51 |
| christx2 | let me scroll bac | 21:51 |
| jroll | christx2: we have some... limitations, yes. we're working on it making it better | 21:51 |
| anteaya | christx2: jroll is the ironit ptl (project team lead) | 21:51 |
| b1airo | the issue i have with deploying ironic in a multi-tenant environment is with disconnecting the provisioning network once the instance is booted | 21:52 |
| LyleWinton | jpr: "science is code for pets". Harsh dude. Sure, we're not advanced, but our codes include decades of experimental and methods validation. | 21:52 |
| oneswig | jroll: hi - follow up on the discussion re: flaky bmcs - is there anything operators could do to help with taxonomy of problems? | 21:52 |
| james__ | Ironic issues in ensuring that the machine is cleaned between tenants. | 21:52 |
| rockyg | jroll, can only use a flat network? L2? | 21:52 |
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| jpr | lylewinton, understood and not meant to be harsh. totally recognize what's going on there. | 21:52 |
| b1airo | requires switch orchestration, and generally all our management/provisioning gear is on a different part of the network with FEXes and stuff that aren't supported in Neutron | 21:52 |
| jroll | rockyg: yes, L2 or L3, doesn't matter, but data plane and control plane must be the same network today | 21:53 |
| christx2 | b1airo | 21:53 |
| christx2 | christx2: what action did you want there - "raise nova-scheduler issues with ironic for further discussion on mailing list" ? | 21:53 |
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| jpr | there is value in those pets but more so as image definitions rather than specific instances. that's where the value of a curated execution environment comes in. | 21:53 |
| dc_mattj | oneswig: someone who's using ironic should take an action to document that stuff for the wider community | 21:53 |
| jroll | oneswig: JayF is working on a spec for handling bmcs better, you might talk to him | 21:53 |
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| oneswig | jroll: OK thanks, I'll look out for him | 21:54 |
| jroll | s/better/more automagically/ | 21:54 |
| rockyg | jroll, ^^what blairo said | 21:54 |
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| oneswig | #action oneswig to raise BMC failure modes with JayF | 21:54 |
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| rbudden | dc_mattj: i have logs of some of the nova scheduler issues, along with other problems i’ve encountered. my personal goal is to file some bugs and have some fixes for what i’ve seen and tested | 21:54 |
| b1airo | #action discuss/identify current working and problem use-cases for ironic in research/hpc | 21:54 |
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| dc_mattj | oneswig: BMC's generally are a horror of inconsistency - see recent posts to the ops list | 21:55 |
| b1airo | that LCA video was great | 21:55 |
| oneswig | dc_mattj: saw them, and wept | 21:55 |
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| LyleWinton | jpr: don't worry, not taken too harshly. On our cloud, several thousand users, probably 50 embracing new cloud architecture. So expert community building and supporting new stack development are key parts of our strategy. | 21:55 |
| b1airo | ok, can we squeeze in HPFS quickly or shall we leave it for next week | 21:55 |
| anteaya | oneswig: he spends a lot of time in the #openstack-ironic channel | 21:55 |
| anteaya | jroll: thanks for joining on short notice | 21:55 |
| anteaya | jroll: I appreciate it | 21:55 |
| dc_mattj | oneswig: this is why making something like ironic work in any kind of general way across hardware platforms is horrific | 21:55 |
| anteaya | jroll: :) | 21:55 |
| jroll | anteaya: very welcome | 21:56 |
| rockyg | anteaya, jroll ++ thanks both of you | 21:56 |
| dc_mattj | +1 | 21:56 |
| oneswig | jroll: thanks | 21:56 |
| jroll | to all of you: feel free to jump in the ironic channel whenever you want to chat more | 21:56 |
| oneswig | we are almost out of time. Any other business to raise? | 21:56 |
| anteaya | b1airo: are we doing to have open discussion today? | 21:56 |
| anteaya | that is #openstack-ironic | 21:56 |
| rbudden | jroll: i’ve been lurking, plan on becoming more active and getting involved in some dev as time permits | 21:56 |
| anteaya | I have an item for open discussion | 21:57 |
| oneswig | #topic AOB | 21:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: scientific-wg)" | 21:57 | |
| jroll | rbudden: awesome :) | 21:57 |
| b1airo | anteaya, i think we have had open discussion all the way through :-) but if there's anything else...? | 21:57 |
| christx2 | send the etherpad plz | 21:58 |
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| christx2 | out to the group ;0 | 21:58 |
| LyleWinton | * waiting in anticipation for anteaya's item * | 21:58 |
| b1airo | #action b1airo to setup trello and post details for anyone interested in watching | 21:58 |
| christx2 | or trello is fine | 21:58 |
| anteaya | oh okay well I'll wait until after this topic | 21:58 |
| anteaya | LyleWinton: oh okay | 21:58 |
| anteaya | well I'll just charge ahead then | 21:58 |
| dc_mattj | is there a new etherpad I've missed ? | 21:58 |
| b1airo | LyleWinton, i think it was just a reminder of usual formality | 21:58 |
| anteaya | have we been following an agenda for this meeting? | 21:59 |
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| LyleWinton | b1airo: Oh, sorry, misunderstood | 21:59 |
| oneswig | Well kind of, half way through it | 21:59 |
| b1airo | anteaya, a very loose one | 21:59 |
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| dc_mattj | so you guys are going to use trello as opposed to etherpads ? | 21:59 |
| b1airo | we'll tighten it up for next week | 21:59 |
| oneswig | #link Agenda was https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_working_group#IRC_Meeting_May_17th_2016 | 21:59 |
| anteaya | okay in future after the meeting is begun can we link to the agenda? | 21:59 |
| anteaya | yeah like that | 21:59 |
| b1airo | dc_mattj, no not instead, but for tracking tasks yes | 21:59 |
| oneswig | only at the start? | 21:59 |
| anteaya | just at the beginning of the meeting next time? | 21:59 |
| anteaya | oneswig: yes | 22:00 |
| anteaya | thanks | 22:00 |
| oneswig | thanks everyone | 22:00 |
| b1airo | i have noticed ppl using etherpads as task trackers and it looks... messy? | 22:00 |
| dc_mattj | blairo: ok cool, will check it out | 22:00 |
| anteaya | thank you | 22:00 |
| dc_mattj | blairo: that certainly can be true | 22:00 |
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| anteaya | great first meeting | 22:00 |
| anteaya | well done | 22:00 |
| dc_mattj | +1 | 22:00 |
| b1airo | thanks all! | 22:00 |
| james__ | +1 | 22:00 |
| rbudden | thanks everyone | 22:00 |
| oneswig | until next time | 22:00 |
| LyleWinton | +1 | 22:00 |
| rockyg | +1 and thanks for all the mentoring, anteaya! | 22:00 |
| christx2 | +1 thanks and bye | 22:00 |
| b1airo | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:01 | |
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| ptrlv | goodnight! | 22:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 17 22:00:59 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scientific_wg/2016/scientific_wg.2016-05-17-21.03.log.html | 22:01 |
| anteaya | rockyg: welcome | 22:01 |
| james__ | ttfn | 22:01 |
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| dabukalam | oneswig, b1airo, nice :) | 22:01 |
| b1airo | yes thanks once again anteaya | 22:01 |
| oneswig | dabukalam: thanks! | 22:01 |
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| anteaya | so channel logs and meeting information is here: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ | 22:02 |
| anteaya | and you can see the links to the meeting minutes above | 22:02 |
| anteaya | b1airo: welcome, nice work | 22:02 |
| anteaya | oneswig: and you too :) | 22:02 |
| anteaya | oneswig: are you in Manchester tomorrow night? | 22:02 |
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| dc_mattj | anteaya, hope it all goes well tomorrow night | 22:03 |
| anteaya | dc_mattj: thank you | 22:03 |
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| anteaya | dc_mattj: will you be here? | 22:03 |
| dc_mattj | anteaya, nope - I have to be at a meeting in Amsterdam | 22:04 |
| dc_mattj | unfortunately | 22:04 |
| anteaya | dc_mattj: I'll miss you | 22:04 |
| dc_mattj | :) | 22:04 |
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| anteaya | dc_mattj: safe travels and I hope your meeting is productive | 22:04 |
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| dc_mattj | anteaya, you too | 22:04 |
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| anteaya | thanks :) | 22:05 |
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