Thursday, 2018-06-07

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openstackgerritChason Chan proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Note that tox need python3-dev or python-dev
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smcginnisbon matin13:37
dtroyerbon bon13:38
* dtroyer is hungry13:38
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mnaserwell twitter is broken13:42
mnasermaybe if they ran openstack13:42
smcginnisSome would argue twitter has been broken for a long time now. ;)13:50
mnaserback in my days we had a fail whale13:51
dhellmannwithout twitter, how do we find out about outages?!13:53
mugsierss and google reader?13:54
mugsieoh, wait. :(13:54
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mnasertc-members: office hours in 5 minutes if you want to wrap anything up on your hands :)14:55
fungithat sounds like something which would make it hard for me to type14:56
mnasernot what i was thinking of but sure smcginnis :p14:57
smcginnisCould make for a much more exciting office hour. :D14:58
* dims hands boxing gloves for mnaser to type with during office hour14:58
* fungi practices his crane stance14:58
mnaserfrthods oksd jawsd rtfk dxk14:58
mnasersorry dims i cant use them14:59
* dhellmann hopes no one intends to switch to ceremonial combat for selecting leaders14:59
* dhellmann also just finally watched Black Panther14:59
* fungi suddenly think of the st:tos episode "amok time"14:59
smcginnisHah, I was actually thinking of Wakanda on that one.14:59
smcginnisCould be one way to increase Summit attendance.15:00
fungi#startmeeting tc15:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Jun  7 15:00:19 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'15:00
fungi#topic Office Hour15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Office Hour (Meeting topic: tc)"15:00
fungi#chair cmurphy smcginnis dims dhellmann mnaser15:01
openstackCurrent chairs: cmurphy dhellmann dims fungi mnaser smcginnis15:01
smcginnisOh good, I was wondering if you could do multiple at once.15:01
fungiyeah, i wanted to find out15:01
fungi#chair zaneb15:01
openstackCurrent chairs: cmurphy dhellmann dims fungi mnaser smcginnis zaneb15:01
mnaseri'm not sure if this ended up being discussed outside office hours15:02
smcginnisI was hoping we could discuss some goals -
mnaserbut last office hours cdent had some questions regarding dhellmann's summary about the AT&T comments (
dhellmannI think the response there in the log was accurate. It was a one-off comment and there was no real discussion.15:03
smcginnisIt's been brought up to me in different contexts since that recap.15:03
smcginnisThat's what I recall.15:03
fungiyeah, jbryce later confirmed there had been no prior discussion of that among the board members15:03
fungithat is just sort of came flying in out of nowhere15:03
fungi#chair mugsie15:04
openstackCurrent chairs: cmurphy dhellmann dims fungi mnaser mugsie smcginnis zaneb15:04
mnaser(i think it would probably be good for us to bring in the out-of-office-hours comments and discussions into it so anyone reading them can catch up)15:04
smcginnisProbably doesn't warrant more than a head tilt and a sigh.15:04
mugsiesmcginnis: ++15:04
dhellmannmnaser : ++15:04
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dhellmannyeah, at this point I wouldn't worry about it, but I'm glad to know people were actually reading my emails :-)15:04
mnaserother than that, i don't think there was anything from last office hours (afaik), so maybe we can dive into smcginnis subject of goals15:05
dhellmannI have something to bring up, too, which may also be long. Maybe we can time-box the goals discussion?15:05
mnaserany other subjects so we can scope out time?15:05
dhellmannoh, good idea15:06
cdentI've thought about the att&t contribution thinng a bit  more since making that earlier comment and re-realized there's a danger in perceiving contribution to openstack the project as the same domain as openstack the wider foundation15:06
dhellmannso I want to start talking about how we're going to divy up project teams to check in with them15:06
smcginnisWe don't need to select goals today, but I did want to make sure they were kept fresh in peoples minds as something we need to think about before we get too close to the end of this cycle.15:06
dhellmannI don't expect us to actually come up with the split, or groupings, or whatever today, but I want to start thinking about the process15:06
smcginniscdent: Oh, that's a good point. Especially now.15:07
mugsieI have one topic that someone brought to me, but I think it will just spin out into a ML thread, so it will be more of "lets think about this"15:07
mugsiemainly - do we want to add openstack client to the help wanted list15:07
dhellmannthat's a good one to consider15:07
mnasercool, so we have: release goals, checking in with teams, (personally, not more than a few minutes) organizational diversity suggestion, openstack client as help wanted15:07
smcginnisdhellmann: I wonder if we can get a list of all teams sorted by some sort of size ranking, then just assign TC members in order down the list so we each take on a balances set of teams.15:08
mnaser10 minutes each starting now to leave us a bit of extra time for each subject?15:08
smcginnisStart with goals?15:08
dhellmannsmcginnis : that might work. I want to do the pairing thing, and I didn't assume we'd have the same pair checking with all the same teams, but maybe I'm over thinking it15:08
dhellmannyeah, let's start with goals15:08
mnaser#topic stein goal selection15:09
*** openstack changes topic to "stein goal selection (Meeting topic: tc)"15:09
smcginnisOK, wanted to make sure everyone saw that post ^15:09
smcginnisNot as much response on it than I thought we might get after the Summit discussion.15:09
smcginnisMatt has some good responses.15:09
mnaseri made a mental ack of "this makes sense" in my head but never replied15:09
smcginnisSo that was my assumption about how quiet it was - that I just proposed a good set. :D15:09
smcginnisBut the cold upgrade vs upgrade checking I could go with either.15:10
smcginnisIt was a close one for me picking one of the two when I came up with the strawman.15:10
dhellmannyeah, mriedem's comments about the python 3 thing were what spurred me to start those tox patches, to try to get a sense of how much work might be involved15:10
smcginnisdhellmann: Good to see most of those appear to be mostly painless so far.15:10
dhellmanndo we want to do more than 2 goals?15:10
mnaserso mriedem helped clarify a little bit about the two different things in cold upgrade here15:10
mugsieyeah - I like cold upgrade as a goal, but we would need to build / update tooling15:11
dhellmannsmcginnis : yeah, and the ones that failed had relatively minor fixes15:11
dhellmannmugsie : would we? we do *have* grenade, even if people don't like it15:11
mugsieyes, we need to update the plugin style of grenade15:11
mnaserdo we want to see how much work python3 involves to decide if we want to do assert:supports-upgrade OR the upgrade check CLI?15:12
smcginnisGrenade doesn't do strictly cold upgrades though, right?15:12
mugsieI get that QA supported teams don't see it as an issue, but it is15:12
dhellmannI wonder if that's something we can work with the QA team to help with this cycle?15:12
mugsiesmcginnis: it depends on how you set up the plugin, and what functions you hook into15:12
dhellmannmaybe the first step is having someone describe what would actually need to change15:12
mriedemgrenade is very strict too,15:12
smcginnisI get the concept, but admit I am not 100% on the fine details of what needs to happen there.15:13
mriedemno one is working on a non-grenade thing for plugin projects,15:13
mnasermaybe we can do something like push up a py3 job to nova and see how bad it breaks as a general idea of how things look like?  if it is going to be a lot of work, then maybe asking devs to add py3 support AND build grenade toolong for upgrades.. that's a lot15:13
mriedembut at the same time, grenade keeps a very consistent / rigid order on upgrades15:13
mriedemwhich i think is a good thing15:13
mnaserat the same time, i think for most projects the upgrade is going to be a database sync and a service restart15:13
smcginnismriedem: Yeah, at least we can show a pattern that is known to work.15:13
dhellmannyeah, a big piece of feedback was that operators needed to have that order information15:14
mriedemright, we don't want the plugin tooling for upgrade testing to be so pluggable that projects can change their upgrade order every release15:14
* mnaser has personally used grenade to see how upgrades worked to help in upgrades15:14
dhellmannif the hard part of the upgrade goal is fixing our test tool, that feels like something we ought to do before we start the goal15:14
mugsiemnaser: yeah, basically - grenade aslo creates resources, and checks if they exist post upgrade15:14
mnaserit's very much a great self-documenting thing to see what is done for the service to upgrade cleanly15:15
dansmithmugsie: I meant to catch up with you after that session, but can you summarize what the grenade problem is?15:15
smcginnisThinking about it, I think the upgrade check would have a bigger press "splash" than cold upgrade.15:15
dhellmannI have to admit I don't know much about how grenade works, so having more detail about where it is difficult to integrate with would be good15:15
dansmithdesignate has plugins in tree and they seem to run15:15
smcginnis"OpenStack added tools to help ensure upgrades will work" sounds like a bigger win than "OpenStack can be upgraded" :)15:15
mugsieyeah - and it took us 2-3 weeks of full time dev to get it to even run15:16
mriedem is a good starter15:16
dansmithmugsie: that doesn't sound like a fundamental problem to me ;)15:16
mriedemonce you got it going, is it in maint mode though?15:16
mnasermugsie: would you say it was just harder to get started because of the lack of docs?15:16
mugsiemnaser: yup15:17
dansmithit's a hard thing to do.. one person for two weeks doesn't seem at all outrageous to me15:17
mugsieand it all being opaque bash plugins15:17
dansmithregardless of the tool15:17
mugsiedansmith - I would for an upgrade goal for small projects15:17
mriedemyeah the phase stuff in devstack/grenade isn't super obvious without docs, i think devstack is better on the phase / plugin docs15:17
mnasermaybe we can have a very simple drop in skeleton plugin15:17
mriedembut the -qa team is also happy to help with questions i think15:17
dhellmanndo we have enough people who understand the tool and have time to help people with it that we could have a small team listed in the goal document?15:17
mriedemi know sdague always was15:17
dimswe tweak grenade stuff at release boundaries, does not take much if i remember right15:18
mugsieI am sure someone with 2 -3 weeks could have ripped mox3 out of nova for example15:18
mnaserthat just does a db sync15:18
dansmiththat is pretty decent I thought.. it's a flow, with steps15:18
dhellmannmnaser : time check?15:18
fungii'd wager that it took longer than a couple weeks to get nova, cinder, glance and so on working in grenade... that just happened to coincide with writing grenade itself15:18
mnaser(fyi, 2 minutes more just to keep us in time)15:18
mriedemmugsie: "I am sure someone with 2 -3 weeks could have ripped mox3 out of nova for example" heh not really15:18
dansmithmugsie: you should take that challenge :P15:18
mriedemno one wants to review mox removal15:19
mnaseri'd like us to maybe look into some action items out of this.. do we want to maybe reach out and ask devs?15:19
mugsieheh - I have enough time scale issues :D15:19
mnaserdo we want someone to look into investigating grenade and how easy or not it is to implement15:19
mnaserto help us decide if we want to do upgrade tooling or actual upgrade jobs15:19
dansmithwell, I'd like to talk to people that have actual problems with missing things in grenade,15:19
dhellmannmnaser : like I said, I think a good first step is to detail what's hard, so we can figure out what to change15:19
dansmithI can't promise to fix them or have answers, but I'd like to hear what they are15:19
mnaser(my deployer hat sees a lot more value in CI jobs that do upgrades)15:19
dhellmannif that means more docs, or 1-on-1 helpers, or whatever15:19
mriedemmugsie: i don't suppose there was anything written down or bugs filed about issues with grenade while trying to integrate with it?15:19
smcginnisOK, times up on this topic.15:20
mugsieeh, I think there was ... let me look15:20
mriedemlike, "this key thing isn't doc'ed at all"15:20
mnasermugsie: as someone who's first hand dealt with this, could you maybe have a stripped down version to look at?15:20
dhellmannit would also be useful to put together a list of the projects that would have to work on this goal15:20
* smcginnis feels like we've given up one meeting now for three meetings15:20
mriedemanyone that doesn't run grenade voting15:20
mnaserbut if mugsie doesn't have the time to do that right now15:20
mnaserwe can defer decision making to another time15:20
mnaserwe all have an idea in our mind15:21
dhellmannyeah, I think we have a few next steps15:21
mnaserbut maybe we should dive into dhellmann's topic for now :)15:21
dhellmannwho's going to drive this one?15:21
dhellmannthe goal, that is15:21
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dhellmannif we have a volunteer, maybe that person could report back next week?15:21
mugsieI can get a list of the issues we had with grenade together, if that would help15:22
dhellmann++, thanks mugsie15:22
mriedemthat would be an excellent start15:22
mnaser#action mugsie gather list of grenade implementation issues to evaluate upgrade goal15:22
fungi"report back next week" definitely makes this not-meeting seem more and more like a meeting ;)15:22
dhellmannis there 1 grenade job? or do different projects use different names for that job?15:22
smcginnismugsie: If we could add notes to our goal backlog etherpad, I think that would be good to capture it there.15:22
mugsiesmcginnis: ++15:22
dhellmannfungi : the report could go to the mailing list15:22
dhellmannsmcginnis : ++15:23
mnaserlooks like we got something!15:23
mnaseronto the next?15:23
dhellmannso, checking in on project health15:23
* dtroyer reads scrollback…15:23
fungii do wonder whether designate's struggle to get undocumented grenade plugin testing was due to it being the first team to undertake such a challenge15:23
mnaser#topic checking in with teams15:23
*** openstack changes topic to "checking in with teams (Meeting topic: tc)"15:23
dhellmannfungi : likely15:23
mriedemfungi: ironic was first i think15:23
mriedemdtantsur: would be the person to ask, or jroll15:24
dimsdhellmann : here's a easy way to find the grenade playbooks -*grenade&i=nope&files=.*%2F*.yaml&repos=15:24
mugsieyeah, and there is still only 5 or 6 teams who have one now15:24
dhellmanndims : thanks15:24
dtroyerthe fact that Grenade is still useful at all is a miracle to me, and says how much sdague did to get it there…   FIWI, it took over 2 months to get a basic clean run when we wrote it15:24
mnaseri liked smcginnis idea about splitting projects up across members :)15:24
dhellmanndo people want me to assign them out? or do we want volunteers?15:24
smcginnisSeems like it would be good to spread the load.15:25
mnasernot to say we 'pick and choose' but perhaps some of us that are more involved in specific communities can volunteer for specific ones15:25
dhellmannwe should also talk about exactly what we mean so we're all doing the same sort of checking15:25
smcginnisI'm fine with being assigned.15:25
mnaserand the leftovers could be split?15:25
dimsdhellmann : fine with being assigned15:25
* dtantsur appears from the shadows15:25
fungiis there a more detailed proposal as to what we'd do with the projects we're each assigned? survey them? hang out in their channels and weekly meetings? something else?15:25
smcginnismnaser: Oh, true. Like I should probably have cinder and probably glance.15:25
dhellmannmnaser : yeah, I actually want our PTLs to not be our (only) point of contacts on things, because I want a different perspective15:25
dhellmannfungi : good question15:25
dhellmannI was thinking at least read the meeting logs. Maybe monitor their major announcement emails.15:26
mnaserso when saying check in, just maybe look at meetings? go through their reviews and see if things are healthy.. irc?15:26
dhellmannTalk to the PTL about whether they are experiencing any issues we can help with?15:26
dhellmannGenerally to get a sense of things.15:26
dtantsurnot sure if it's still important or not, but we have two working grenade plugins in the ironic world15:26
fungiyour friendly neighborhood tc contact15:26
zanebshould we write a script (as in movie script, not python script) or something for the initial contact?15:26
dhellmannI had at least 2 cases at the summit where someone mentioned a "long standing" issue between 2 teams. I want us to find those before they become long standing.15:26
mnaseri agree15:26
dimsmakes sense dhellmann15:27
smcginnisSome things to check - are they still holding regular meetings, are patches getting reviewed and merged, is the PTL aware of any issues.15:27
mnaserhaving more of a presence and being more reachable is important15:27
dhellmannfungi : right. like a liaison. :-)15:27
fungiaha, so more things like brokering inter-team relationships15:27
dhellmannzaneb : a list of questions/topics might be good. it doesn't have to be very formal, but it should be consistent15:27
smcginnisAnd being a known contact point for them if they need help.15:27
dhellmannsmcginnis : those are good things, too15:27
mugsieyeah, knowing that you can reach out to $people seems like a good thing15:27
zanebdhellmann: ++15:27
dhellmannwe do have this frequent conversation about whether projects are active enough to stay on the official list15:27
mnaserand $people is not a group or a mailing list but someoen that you spoke to personally15:27
mnaserso they might understand situations much more intimately15:27
mnaseri like it15:27
mugsieLike back in the old days when teams and PTLs would have a sync with ttx once a week?15:28
fungiconversely, we don't want to give teams the impression they can only reach out to their designated tc representative, right?15:28
mugsie(maybe not once a week though)15:28
mugsiefungi: ++15:28
mnaseri also think we should pair up on this15:28
dhellmannmugsie : it doesn't have to be that often, but I want to make sure people know they can come to someone if they're experiencing an issue15:28
dhellmannfungi : sure15:28
smcginnisfungi: Right, but some might not even realize they *can* reach out to someone on issues.15:28
dhellmannmnaser : yes, definitely15:28
mriedemare we talking about tc guidance counselors?15:28
dhellmannsmcginnis : yeah, that seems to be the problem in the cases I had at the summit15:29
smcginnisTime check15:29
mnaseri think we're all in agreement and seem to have a clear idea of really checking health of a team15:29
mnaser3-4 minutes or so15:29
fungii'm all for this kinder, gentler technical committee15:29
mnaserdo we want to discuss ways to split this up?15:29
dhellmann#action dhellmann make a list of project teams and TC member assignments15:29
smcginnisI like the idea15:29
mugsieand pro-active tc :)15:29
smcginnisMaybe we sign up for specific projects, then out of the remaining we divy up assignments?15:30
dhellmannsure, we could do that15:30
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #action dhellmann make a list of project teams and TC member assignments15:30
mriedemnova wants mnaser then15:30
mriedemi'll call it15:30
dhellmann#action dhellmann make a list of project teams for TC members to volunteer for15:30
mriedemhe has candy in his office15:30
fungitime to bikeshed what metric we're using to divvy them up "by size"? (number of contributors? amount of code churn? number of deliverables? number of core reviewers? something else?)15:30
dimsdang! mriedem does not like me anymore15:31
dhellmannfungi : I'm not sure the size matters?15:31
mnaserfungi: we can bikeshed once we have leftovers?15:31
fungioh, sounded like you had initially said something about trying to sort them by some means15:31
mnaseri'm sure we all have projects that are within our areas of interest15:31
-openstackstatus- NOTICE: Zuul update for Ansible 2.5 in progress. Scheduler crashed as unexpected side effect of pip upgrade. Will be back and running shortly.15:31
dimsmnaser right i am trying to get out of my comfort zone15:31
dhellmannfungi : I don't want the same 2 TC members paired for every team, and I don't want the PTL to be the primary contact from the TC. Other than that, I'm open to any other ways to group things.15:32
mnaserdims: hence the idea that we get some that we pick, but the rest we'll get assigned :)15:32
dhellmannthe smaller teams may actually be harder to get in touch with, fwiw15:32
dhellmannthat has been my experience from the release team, anyway15:32
mnaseri think we've reached a good point, do we want to speak briefly about the next topic now?15:32
mnaserETIMEOUT no responses other than dhellmann15:33
mnaser#topic organizational diversity15:33
*** openstack changes topic to "organizational diversity (Meeting topic: tc)"15:33
fungiyeah, i think i misread initially. no worries. was trying to juggle following two meetings and some maintenance at the same time15:33
mnaserso, i posted a thread about this which has gathered a lot of interesting feedback15:33
mnaserbut an idea that has floated around which i was thinking of is linking it to releases15:33
mnaserso once a project makes a release, only then does their status gets 're-evaluated'15:34
mnaserthat prevents having someone work on a big report at the end of cycle when we're all really busy15:34
mnaserand we can still somewhat leverage our automation infrastructure, tying into the release process, to have the checks happen15:34
smcginnismnaser: So are you thinking something added to our release automation that would check that?15:34
smcginnisHah, yep.15:34
mnasersmcginnis: something in `post` alongside the other jobs15:34
dhellmannI like the idea of linking it to the development cycle. There are some technical issues with linking it to the release itself. Principally, a team has many deliverables and they aren't all released at the same time.15:34
zanebdoes that create an incentive for some projects to never release? :D15:35
dhellmannbut we do use them all when checking contribution diversity15:35
mugsieso for team:diverse-affiliation we could have team:diverse-affiliation:rocky ?15:35
dhellmannzaneb : the release team already has a policy of recommending dropping projects that do not release15:35
mnasermugsie: we have not decided that part yet15:35
mnaserwe could look into that15:35
mnaseri was thinking doing this for the 'major' release, but then thought that we can also do this for any milestone releases15:36
dhellmannby "major" do you mean "final" or "service"? e.g., cinder has a server and a client. they aren't released together.15:37
mnasersorry, by major i meant when we do our 'openstack release', marketing pages are up, etc15:37
mugsiedhellmann: is the tag not applied to both separatly?15:37
mnasertags are applied to teams afaik, not projects/deliverables15:37
dhellmannmugsie : the tags are applied to the team15:37
dhellmannat least this tag is15:37
fungiyeah, i think syncing up contributor affiliation diversity stats to just be per-cycle values makes sense15:38
smcginnisAnd teams can have cycle based and non-cycle based deliverables.15:38
dhellmannyes, that's another good point15:38
smcginnisHasn't ttx been doing these roughly per-cycle until now?15:38
dhellmannI need to look into how much this is already automated. Maybe the thing to do is put it on the release schedule, to remind someone on the TC to do it?15:38
mugsiewe could just time box it - between these 2 date points the team was / was not diverse ?15:39
mnaseri'm not too familiar with the intimate details of how all of this works, i volunteered myself to help out15:39
dhellmannsmcginnis : I think so15:39
mugsiebut the problem with the actual caluclations still remains15:39
mnasermaybe next time we sit down ttx can bring up his knowledge upon us :)15:39
dhellmannyes, that's a separate thing and we should talk about that, too, mugsie15:39
mugsiee.g. I counted as 3 companies for a while15:39
mnasermugsie: i mean for how much work you put in, don't see whats wrong ;) hah :p15:40
smcginnismugsie: You're just a 3x developer.15:40
mugsie3x the destruction of a normal one? for sure :P15:40
mnaserso that's the overall thing, maybe next time when chat ttx will be around to discuss this more15:40
dhellmannfor the stats I put together for the meeting in vancouver, I used the affiliation at the time of the contribution. I'm not so sure that works for this meausre.15:40
mnaseri just wanted to have a quick updates and it didnt seem like everyone is too wildly opposed to it :)15:41
fungiare you relying on the affiliation date ranges provided by the foundation member lookup api?15:41
fungior something else?15:41
mnaserthat's it for me if anyone has no other comments we can talk about the last thing which is openstack client as help wanted?15:41
fungito map affiliation at the time of the contribution15:41
dhellmannfungi : the foundation member api15:42
mugsiebut we have teams like searchlight, which are down as diverse, and have 8 commits this cycle15:42
mnaser#action mnaser post suggestion of tying organizational diversity checks to releases15:42
dhellmannright, the question of what to do with those low volume teams is a separate part of this15:42
mnaserare they still releasing?15:42
dhellmannmaybe we should wait to decide anything until we've had the health check?15:42
mugsieyeah, afaik they are15:42
fungisearchlight is our only listed maintenance mode team at this point15:43
dhellmannright, we don't expect lots of activity there15:43
mnaserif the team behind it was diverse then it should stay that way if there are no new commits (imho)15:43
mnaserbecause it is still diverse. and commits come from all different organizations15:43
mnaserif one company started doing commits to it now, it'll go back to single vendor, which is also ok15:44
smcginnisI agree - freeze reporting on maintenance mode projects.15:44
mnaseri like that15:44
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #link
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #action mnaser post suggestion of tying organizational diversity checks to releases15:44
mnaser#action mnaser post suggestion of tying organizational diversity checks to releases + freezing reporting on maintenance mode projects15:45
mnaserwe have 15 minutes left and maybe it would be good to bring up our last topic that mugsie wanted to talk about15:45
mnaseropenstack client as help needed afaik?15:45
mugsieyup - it kind of a foundational part of our UX, and there seems to be issues with review velocity15:46
mnaser#topic openstack client help needed15:46
*** openstack changes topic to "openstack client help needed (Meeting topic: tc)"15:46
dhellmannyeah, dtroyer is stretched thin and we've mostly lost stevemar15:46
fungii saw some of that bubble up in a recent ml thread15:46
mugsiea member of the community pinged me about it last week, and I looked at the backlog15:46
mugsieso, if dtroyer is OK with it I think we need to highlight the resource issues there15:46
smcginnisSince our unofficial goal has been to migrate to osc, I think it definitely needs more resources.15:47
smcginnisHelp wanted makes sense to me.15:47
mugsiesmcginnis: ++15:47
dhellmanndo we want to remove anything from the existing top 5 list? or do we want to expand it?15:47
cmurphysteve isn't totally gone fwiw
dhellmannI did say "mostly"15:47
mugsie is more depressing15:48
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mnaseras a side idea15:48
mnaserwhat about organizing 'review-athons'15:48
mriedemi did my part and reviewed one compute osc thing this week :)15:48
mriedemadding tags support for servers15:48
mnaserim sure a lot of members in the community can do reviews15:48
mriedemi think the project teams definitely need to be more involved in reviewing their project-specific stuff in osc15:48
mriedemand i'd be happy to help there15:48
mugsiemriedem: ++15:49
mriedemnova core is alread ydoing this for osc-placement15:49
mriedemwe also understand the various microversion implications15:49
mugsiebut we need people who can also help projects outside the nova + friends group15:49
mriedemi just need help at times about things like which type of command parent classes to use and such15:49
mnaserforgive this wild suggestion15:49
mnaserdo we want to add something as part of the release process to push teams to review all their osc changes for their project15:50
mnaserand work with the osc team to use topics for this thing15:50
mugsieof course - there is another soluton15:50
mugsiepush all osc interactions to plugins, and make the teams own them15:50
dimsi suppose we can't ask for all-scenarios-must-work ... may be we can say something like all your devstack and grenade plugins should use osc for sure, anything else is a bonus?15:50
fungii'm not grasping what that would have to do at all with the release process15:50
mugsiethen the osc team has a lot less surface area to deal with15:51
dhellmannmugsie : it was designed to work that way, but we found that most developers did not appreciate the importance of UI consistency *and* we ended up with project teams clashing over the command namespaces15:51
fungihow does reviewing topical osc changes relate to release cadence?15:51
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mnaserfungi: so just like how we have certain expectations by milestones for a project to have all their client-based code be in15:51
mugsiedhellmann: its that way for everyone but 4/5 projects already15:51
dtroyermugsie: for context, that is one reason OSC existed in the first place, those teams could not/would not agree on damn near anything…15:52
zanebmugsie: ++15:52
mriedemas a data point,i'll say that even with the small number of osc-placement patches up for review, i have a hard time giving those review time15:52
mugsiedtroyer: sure - but you did a good job of beating them into shape :)15:52
mnasersay.. kinda like requirements freeze time15:52
dtroyerfor what it's worth, adopting the SDK once it has a 1.0 release opens the door to a lot of the things people want out of OSC, specitifally microversions15:52
smcginnisNo idea if there is a way to automate it, but a semi-regular report to the ML showing each project and its osc support coverage would be interesting to me.15:52
mnaserlike the emails smcginnis sends about release countdown15:53
mnasermentioning "development focus"15:53
mugsiemnaser: that is a hard thing to gather though15:53
fungii guess the unfortunate solution of namespacing commands based on which plugin they're in means that subcommands would end up in nonsensical hierarchies based on which team was responsible for them rather than more intuitive groupings15:53
smcginnismugsie: Yeah...15:53
mnaserand maybe if it's not too much of a pain under the general info "these projects have pending changes in their openstack client code"15:54
mugsiefungi: not really, we added 2 or 3 top level command15:54
smcginnismugsie: At one point there was a nice spreadsheet of the gaps with Cinder support, but I believe that was all manual.15:54
* dtroyer reading scrollback15:54
zanebfungi: there are non-namespaced plugins now AIUI15:54
dtroyeroh, OSC doesn't namespace although it looks like that sometimes15:54
dhellmannfungi : the "namespace" in this sense is the resource name. I think "container" was one where swift was using it before we got magnum, for example.15:54
fungimugsie: right, you can _currently_ add whatever top-level commands you want, which is what i was saying... that's what leads to collisions between teams15:54
dtroyerthere is a subtle differece that I can explain to anyone who hasn't heard it offline15:54
smcginnismnaser: Not sure I would want to include that in the release countdown email. Something doesn't feel right about it. But if we had something similar that could work.15:55
mnaserare we looking to help with OSC reviews or making it more functional/adding features?15:55
* fungi gives up. this conversation is moving too fast and his points seem to get taken in reverse by the time he can type them15:55
mriedemtelling project cores "go review osc patches for your resource" is going to end up down a well i think15:55
dhellmannmriedem : we don't need project cores to do it.15:55
smcginnismriedem: ++15:55
mriedemneed to find liaisons or just people that care15:55
dtroyermriedem: as a counter-example, nearly all of the network work was done by the neutron team(s), it is really the only reason it got done15:56
mugsiehow about "go review osc patches, or your service will be moved out into a plugin" ?15:56
fungimuch like python-novaclient has (or had) different core reviewers than nova15:56
mnaserfungi, mriedem: that's a good point15:56
mriedemi've been saying nova needs to move off novaclient for CLI and into OSC15:56
mriedemthat's why i added te community wide goal to close the gap on the OSC CLIs15:56
mriedemi definitely have bought into the unified CLI15:57
mriedemand use it as much as possible now15:57
mriedemincluding in new nova docs15:57
mugsiemriedem: ++15:57
mriedemi want to burn "nova boot" from our lexicon15:57
mriedembut, i'm only one person already stretched thin15:57
mugsiewe removed our cli when we jumped api versions15:57
fungidoes the always-backward-compatible, non-branching nature of osc provide challenges compared to python-novaclient being tied a bit more closely (via branching, et cetera) to the versions of other services which rely on it for integrating with nova?15:57
zanebpresumably if Nova could drop any effort it's putting in to novaclient CLI and redirect it to OSC, it'd be a wash?15:58
zanebso why isn't that happening?15:58
* dtroyer sends mriedem his payola check15:58
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mriedemzaneb: it's come up, but people get hung up on the "but osc has this 60 micorversion gap"15:58
zanebbecause the code is owned by the OSC project and not the Nova project?15:58
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zanebah, ok15:58
mugsiefungi: does having plugins help that?15:58
mnaserwe have 2 minutes so maybe figuring out a conclusion would be good, or we can defer to the next discussion :)15:58
mriedemno people just want to get their feature into the server, they for the most part don't care about ansillary projects like novaclient, osc, horizon or tempest15:58
mugsiewhen you install stable/pike, and the stable/pike client, you only get the relevent commands?15:58
fungii have no clue15:58
zanebmriedem: so we're waiting for openstacksdk 1.0, really15:59
mriedemthis is where maintainers have to care and take on the work15:59
dtroyerfungi: the challenge has been with removing things from client libs (see recent novaclient).  we solve that with the switch to SDK once we get a 1.0 release of that15:59
fungimakes sense15:59
mnaseranyone want to propose some sort of action out of this discussion before we wrap up?15:59
dhellmannit sounds like it would be useful to have a list of specific things the OSC team could use help with, as a start. we're going to need that to add it to the help-wanted list anyway, right?15:59
smcginnisOfficial times up.16:00
zanebpeople don't care if they can access their feature with a client??16:00
dtroyermugsie: if you install osc stable/pike you get that snapshot in time, yes.  you should not have to do that though unless you are not running from a venv16:00
* dims heads out for an errand16:00
mugsiedhellmann: yeah, we need a list I think16:00
mriedemi can figure out what the nova microversion gap is in osc16:00
mriedemthat's an action i've been meanning to do anyway16:00
mriedemsign me up16:00
dhellmann#action mriedem figure out the nova microversion gap in osc16:00
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dtroyermriedem: remember we don't need to support every microversion, just the ones needed by each command16:00
dhellmanndtroyer : do you have time to put together a list of things the OSC team could use help with in more detail than "reviews"?16:01
dtroyerand sdk goes a long way in helping do that16:01
mriedemdtroyer: sure i know16:01
mriedemlots of microversions in nova are on admin stuff that's not in osc16:01
mriedemwhich has been another reason people keep doing them in novaclient16:01
fungii just know that in the past we had this unfortunate dynamic between application developers needing a novaclient which could talk to lots of versions of nova, and other openstack services which needed very specific versions of novaclient for integrating with contemporary versions of nova, and having a separate unified client/sdk for users/application developers was brought up as the way out of that16:01
fungiso that we ended up with the inter-service communication libraries and the application developer sdk not being bound to each other16:02
clarkbdtroyer: mriedem that is how shade functioned too fwiw. Basically use the base api for everything unless a specific command needs a newer microversion then use that for that request only16:02
dhellmannfungi : that split may make less sense now that we have more work and fewer people16:02
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fungiright, but if we're going back to one sdk which is used both for inter-service communication and application development, i worry that we'll reintroduce that coupling16:03
dtroyerthat split was always due to assumptions in the client libs being not suitable for CLI use… mordred thinks this is reversed for the SDK and is not a problem16:03
mnaseri think we can continue to discuss within the channel but we can probably close out, fungi i'll leave that up to you :)16:03
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fungidtroyer: yeah, i suppose if the sdks are first and foremost written for users/application developers, and the services can also use them for inter-service communication if they want, then perhaps that does solve it16:04
mugsiedhellmann: me and a few others (dims TheJulia smcginnis I think) have an action from the meeting in YVR for improving the help wanted listings - should we take OSC as a start case?16:04
mugsieas an action to kick off16:05
dtroyerfungi: also, keeping the dep list for SDK really small helps a lot for co-installability16:05
dhellmannmugsie : it sounds like we need to collect more info first. it might be better to work on the things we've already got on the list?16:05
dhellmannmugsie : and don't forget to pull the board member volunteers into that discussion16:05
mugsieOK - who is collecting info? all I have is "needs reviewers"16:06
* mordred reading scrollback16:06
dhellmannmugsie : we didn't get a volunteer for that. I suspect dtroyer is the best person to talk to, but he may not have time to write it all up16:06
mordredyes- I believe because the sdk is end-user/client oriented _first_ rather than service-to-service first the situation is reversed16:07
mugsieyeah - I definitely won;t have any extra time in the next 7 days for it either :/16:07
dtroyerI will help as much as I can, but I'm totally interrupt-driven these days :(16:07
mordredthe problem with python-*client is that they are service-to-service first and make life harder for end-users who need to touch more than one version16:07
mugsiedtroyer: sure, its the old problem of needing to spend time to get things that give you back time :)16:08
* mugsie has to go AFK for a bit16:09
* mordred is allocating personal time to directly helping getting OSC up and on to the sdk - although post-summit has been extra busy so apologizes that hasn't gotten further16:09
mordredbut I'll definitely directly work on it16:09
dhellmannI added OSC to the tracker:
mriedemyou have personal time?16:09
mriedemwhat a luxury16:09
mordredmriedem: wel16:09
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dhellmannare we winding down? should we close out the meeting log?16:10
smcginnisProbably, we are over the hour.16:10
smcginnisWell over. :)16:10
fungisure, i was just checking to see if the conversation had died down sufficiently16:10
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | | channel logs"16:10
openstackMeeting ended Thu Jun  7 16:10:52 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)16:10
mordredmriedem: I should say "allocating some of the time I am spending on opnestack to this"16:10
openstackMinutes (text):
-openstackstatus- NOTICE: The zuul upgrade to ansible 2.5 is complete and zuul is running again. Changes uploaded or approved between 15:25 and 15:45 will need to be rechecked. Please report any problems in #openstack-infra16:11
mnaserfungi: i know you mentioned this non-meeting became more of a meeting but i (feel) it was pretty productive overall16:11
fungiyeah, it was16:12
mriedemmordred: heh ok16:12
mriedemtrying to think what i was actually planning on working on today...16:12
fungithe third office hour of the week is always way busy compared to the other two mostly just due to all of us being awake at this time of day, so makes it hard to follow the increased discussion activity much less weigh in on anything16:12
zanebkinda like the meetings used to be :)16:13
dhellmannmnaser did a good job of keeping us on topic and on time16:14
dhellmannbut yeah, it did move quickly16:14
fungiyep. thanks mnaser!16:14
dimsthanks mnaser!16:14
mnaserand the zuul issues were all taken care of while we were in the meeting too16:14
mnaserso we didn't lose any time :P16:15
fungiand now zuul is running the most recent ansible release (at least until ansible 2.6 is released, imminently i'm told)16:20
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zanebby my count there are 83 Projects/SIGs/WGs on that list18:25
dhellmannI just added 1, so 8418:26
zanebthat's 13 projects each if we pair up18:26
zanebI'm concerned that the amount of work required to keep up with all of the things listed for 13 projects is a full-time job in itself18:28
dhellmannyeah, it's definitely a concern18:28
smcginnisI would hope this would end up being 26 emails or IRC pings every six months, but could certainly end up being more than that.18:28
dhellmannbut we need to address the health questions somehow. we've been pretty passive at it in the past.18:29
fungii signed up for 2 sigs and 7 teams i already have ins with, happy to take more (and working groups) by random assignment i guess18:29
zanebI think talk to the PTL twice a cycle is achievable. that's one project per week18:29
fungii could have signed up for a few others but didn't (e.g. release management) where i knew there were already better choices on the tc who were likely to take them anyway18:31
zanebread meeting logs, watch vidoes, read the ML for the project, talk with multiple members of the group continuously... I barely have time to do that for the projects I'm actually working on18:31
fungizaneb: i'm already used to volunteering for things i don't end up getting done... what's a few more? ;)18:32
dhellmannyeah, that's not meant to be continuously18:32
dhellmannearly on it may be to come up to speed18:32
dhellmannbut then checking in with one group once a week feels like a reasonable rate18:32
dhellmannand maybe once we've done this a bit, we'll get a feel for what is really needed18:33
smcginnisI bet it would be easy to write a script to at least quickly check that regular meetings are happening.18:33
smcginnisWould still need to take a look at the logs (if not attending real time) to see that they are not on person lamenting how lonely they are.18:33
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dhellmannnot all teams meet any more, so actually having meetings isn't necessarily the point -- scanning the logs will expose issues, and that's what I'm concerned about18:34
dhellmannyeah, true :-)18:34
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dhellmannthere may also be board working groups that I left off of the list18:34
dhellmannI'm looking for a list of those but didn't find one18:34
smcginnisDid we say we wanted two on every project?18:37
dhellmannthat's what I would like, yes18:37
dhellmannas a general rule, I don't want us to have only 1 person assigned to anything we're doing18:37
dhellmannat least anything significant like this18:37
dimsi took one sig and one wg which i already follow. happy to take random assignments for the rest of my quota18:39
smcginnisDo I remember right that LCOO just posted something about maybe stopping and joining another wg?18:40
dhellmannsmcginnis : is that you volunteering to keep an eye on lcoo? ;-)18:41
smcginnisHeh, if they are disbanding already, sure. That should be an easy one then. :)18:41
smcginnisWhat is Ops Tags?18:41
dhellmannI think I've seen some discussion of groups merging, but LCOO met at the summit and talked about their new leadership, so I don't think they are disbanding18:41
dhellmannthat's a UC WG to do with operator-defined tags that they manage in another repo18:42
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smcginnisAh, I was thinking of FEMDC:
dhellmannah, good18:52
dhellmannso I will remove that one from the list18:53
fungidhellmann: there are no more "board working groups" as far as i know. if my recollection is correct, the board delegated governance of all their working groups to the uc a year-ish ago?18:55
dhellmannok. the interop group wasn't on the list I found for the UC18:55
dhellmannI assumed that meant there was another group somewhere18:55
fungihogepodge: ^ is the interop wg still directly under the bod, or the uc now?18:55
dhellmannbottom of the page18:56
dhellmannah, there's a list on
fungiahh, yep,
fungiinteresting, i thought the committees remained under the board but the working groups had all moved to the uc. i might have been wrong about thaht18:58
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hogepodgefungi: bod19:32
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fungiso i guess that confirms it. some working groups did indeed not move under the uc19:40
fungiand i guess that list in the foundation governance wiki is the ones which still fall under the board20:04
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mriedemi would like to report great success on my action item from about 6 hours ago
smcginnisGreat counting mriedem. Pick up a sticker on your way out. :P20:18
mriedemscratch-n-sniff root beer?!20:19
smcginnisYou know it!20:19
fungilove me some scratch-n-sniff root beer stickers20:30
fungiand thanks for adding the board working groups. now i've signed up for a couple working groups too20:32
fungii'm still only a liaison for 11 groups across the set of sigs, wgs and teams, so will likely need some randomly-assigned still20:33
* fungi takes a moment to think about how insane that sounds20:33
fungimoment's over! ;)20:34
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smcginnisI did less, but I wanted to give others some time to sign up for things before I randomly put my name first.20:52
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