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| shardy | #startmeeting heat | 12:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 12:00:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is shardy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 12:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 12:00 |
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| shardy | #topic rollcall | 12:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:00 | |
| asalkeld | o/ | 12:00 |
| shardy | Hi all, who's around? | 12:00 |
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| skraynev | hi guys | 12:00 |
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| * cmyster nods | 12:01 | |
| inc0 | \o\ /o/ | 12:01 |
| asalkeld | might be a short meeting :-O | 12:01 |
| skraynev | I suppose, that pas-ha should be here too.. | 12:01 |
| shardy | Heh, yeah | 12:01 |
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| shardy | #topic Review actions from last meeting | 12:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:02 | |
| shardy | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-11-19-20.00.html | 12:02 |
| shardy | ACTION: asalkeld to send out an announcement about the bug cleanup day | 12:02 |
| asalkeld | done | 12:02 |
| asalkeld | and the other email too | 12:02 |
| shardy | #info asalkeld sent out an announcement about the bug cleanup day | 12:02 |
| skraynev | 2 December :) | 12:02 |
| shardy | #info asalkeld announced remote mid-cycle plan | 12:03 |
| asalkeld | we should start thinking about how to actually do that | 12:03 |
| shardy | Yeah, I think that's it from last week? | 12:03 |
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| shardy | #topic Adding items to the agenda | 12:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:03 | |
| shardy | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282014-11-26_1200_UTC.29 | 12:03 |
| shardy | Anyone have anything to add? | 12:03 |
| shardy | I added a quick recap of the liason-all-the-things status | 12:04 |
| asalkeld | add an item about approaching k1 | 12:04 |
| shardy | asalkeld: Ok, good point | 12:04 |
| asalkeld | k1 is 2014-12-18 | 12:04 |
| shardy | #infp Additional topic: discuss approaching k1 milestone | 12:04 |
| shardy | #info Additional topic: discuss approaching k1 milestone | 12:05 |
| shardy | Shall we do that first? | 12:05 |
| ananta | In the end I would also like to discuss about convergence PoC if possible | 12:05 |
| asalkeld | shardy, sure | 12:05 |
| skraynev | shardy: +1 | 12:05 |
| asalkeld | ananta, we will have heaps of time | 12:05 |
| ananta | asalkeld: ok, sounds great | 12:06 |
| shardy | #info Add topic discuss about convergence PoC | 12:06 |
| *** dulek has quit IRC | 12:06 | |
| shardy | Ok lets do K1 first | 12:06 |
| shardy | #topic K1 milestone | 12:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "K1 milestone (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:06 | |
| asalkeld | https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/kilo-1 | 12:06 |
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| asalkeld | this is just a reminder that k1 is approaching | 12:06 |
| shardy | #link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/kilo-1 | 12:07 |
| asalkeld | so don't plan on squeezing big things in | 12:07 |
| shardy | How's the bug backlog looking? | 12:07 |
| * shardy looks | 12:07 | |
| asalkeld | good I think | 12:07 |
| shardy | Yeah, all the High stuff is in-progress or committed :) | 12:07 |
| asalkeld | we should review those bugs/blueprints above others | 12:08 |
| asalkeld | that's all really | 12:08 |
| asalkeld | just a heads up | 12:08 |
| skraynev | only one bug without owner | 12:08 |
| shardy | I really need to revisit the decouple-nested patches | 12:08 |
| shardy | All the easy ones have merged now, so I need to tackle the remaining test nightmare | 12:08 |
| asalkeld | zane set that | 12:08 |
| shardy | Will try to get that sorted next week | 12:09 |
| * shardy has been saying that for a few weeks... | 12:09 | |
| skraynev | ok | 12:09 |
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| shardy | Everything else looks good I think modulo some review iterations :) | 12:09 |
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| asalkeld | yip | 12:10 |
| shardy | Ok, shall we move on? | 12:10 |
| asalkeld | yip, move on | 12:10 |
| skraynev | go | 12:10 |
| shardy | #topic Cross Project Liasons revisited | 12:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cross Project Liasons revisited (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:10 | |
| shardy | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons | 12:10 |
| shardy | So the only gap is the VMT liason | 12:11 |
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| shardy | Despite saying it was pointless last week, I can do that if nobody else wantst to | 12:11 |
| asalkeld | and randall has a question mark | 12:11 |
| shardy | Yeah, did anyone check if he's happy to do that? | 12:11 |
| shardy | I can take an action to if not | 12:11 |
| asalkeld | that's a good action to email him | 12:12 |
| asalkeld | i can do that | 12:12 |
| shardy | #action shardy to check with randallburt re Docs liason | 12:12 |
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| shardy | #action asalkeld to check with randallburt re Docs liason | 12:12 |
| asalkeld | or you:-) | 12:12 |
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| asalkeld | doh | 12:12 |
| shardy | Either works ;) | 12:12 |
| skraynev | that is all? | 12:12 |
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| asalkeld | skraynev, all others have names now | 12:12 |
| shardy | yup, I think we have all others covered | 12:13 |
| skraynev | ok | 12:13 |
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| shardy | Ok, I guess we can move on - asalkeld, shall I undo that last action before changing topic? | 12:14 |
| asalkeld | i have just emailed him | 12:14 |
| asalkeld | so you can | 12:14 |
| shardy | #undo | 12:15 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x1b164d0> | 12:15 |
| shardy | Ok, thanks | 12:15 |
| * shardy can't type in more than one window at once ;D | 12:15 | |
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| shardy | #topic Convergence PoC status | 12:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Convergence PoC status (Meeting topic: heat)" | 12:16 | |
| asalkeld | ananta, | 12:16 |
| ananta | we have the poc at | 12:16 |
| ananta | https://github.com/anantpatil/heat-convergence-poc | 12:16 |
| shardy | #link https://github.com/anantpatil/heat-convergence-poc | 12:16 |
| ananta | I would like to see some feedback so that we can take it forward | 12:16 |
| shardy | ananta: So you've been collaborating with zaneb and inc0 re the test framework? | 12:17 |
| inc0 | we haven't really decided on approach... | 12:17 |
| ananta | our poc started much before zaneb's | 12:17 |
| ananta | so we have changes on top of the heat engine | 12:17 |
| shardy | inc0: What I'm getting at is, are we collaborating effectively, or all working on separate PoC efforts | 12:17 |
| padiyar | It would be great if we can feedback on the poc which built on top of heat code itself | 12:17 |
| shardy | I get the impression it's the latter, so it would be good to start working out how we change that :) | 12:18 |
| asalkeld | agree | 12:18 |
| shardy | ananta, padiyar: OK, well thanks for the update | 12:18 |
| shardy | let's revisit this next week when Zane is around | 12:18 |
| asalkeld | the main thing here is to talk to each other about the ideas | 12:19 |
| asalkeld | but padiyar ananta , i'll look at the poc | 12:19 |
| ananta | asalkeld: sure | 12:19 |
| asalkeld | i have been looking at inc0 and zane's efforts | 12:19 |
| padiyar | we are putting lot of effort on this so that we can make some decision.. it would really help to get some feedback and work on it if it required changes | 12:20 |
| asalkeld | sure | 12:20 |
| ananta | as long as we can convey the ideas it would be great ... | 12:20 |
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| ananta | I also seek feedback on the persist-graph BP | 12:21 |
| ananta | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/123749/ | 12:21 |
| ananta | our PoC is based on that and I gues that is the case with zaneb's poc | 12:22 |
| shardy | padiyar, ananta: Do you have any thoughts on how we can improve the collaboration between folks interested in defining this design? | 12:22 |
| padiyar | Do we need a separate meeting to discuss only convergence poc? proabably a hagnout session? | 12:22 |
| ananta | shardy: yes | 12:22 |
| inc0 | we have these... just after heat meetings | 12:23 |
| asalkeld | padiyar, i'd really like you guys and zane and inc0 in a hangout working together discussing pros/cons | 12:23 |
| asalkeld | trying to zero in on a solution | 12:23 |
| padiyar | sure we will do that | 12:23 |
| ananta | shardy, asalkeld: we do think of collaborating, now that the poc has taken a concrete shape | 12:24 |
| inc0 | next week just after heat meetings ananta? | 12:24 |
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| inc0 | its ok with you? | 12:24 |
| ananta | inc0: cant tell right now | 12:24 |
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| ananta | will communicate later | 12:24 |
| shardy | #action Convergence folks to organise call/hangout to define direction re various PoC efforts | 12:24 |
| shardy | Ok, I'll leave you guys to discuss timing with Zane next week | 12:25 |
| asalkeld | guys one thing (inc and ananta) don't cling too hard to *your* design | 12:25 |
| padiyar | lets get a sync up on this over email | 12:25 |
| shardy | Anything else before we wrap up? | 12:25 |
| inc0 | sure, just my humble request, lets try to organise it in some managable time for Euro;) | 12:25 |
| asalkeld | try focus on finding the best solution, not *my* solution | 12:25 |
| padiyar | yes :) for sure | 12:26 |
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| asalkeld | that's all from me | 12:26 |
| shardy | Ok then, thanks all! | 12:26 |
| padiyar | thank you | 12:26 |
| shardy | #endmeeting | 12:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 12:27 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 12:27:01 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 12:27 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-11-26-12.00.html | 12:27 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-11-26-12.00.txt | 12:27 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-11-26-12.00.log.html | 12:27 |
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| ananta | thanks all | 12:27 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #startmeeting XenAPI | 15:06 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 15:06:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:06 | |
| johnthetubaguy | hello folks | 15:06 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic CI | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:06 | |
| BobBall | Howdy. | 15:06 |
| matel | Hello | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: matel: hows things looking in CI land? | 15:06 |
| BobBall | Good... But... | 15:06 |
| BobBall | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133975/ | 15:06 |
| BobBall | Don't like that -1 | 15:07 |
| BobBall | I've not followed up on it and I need to I know | 15:07 |
| BobBall | but it means I'm not happy to remove the restrictions yet | 15:07 |
| BobBall | there are still some race conditions / circumstaces where some of the excluded tests will fail | 15:07 |
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| matel | that's bad news | 15:08 |
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| BobBall | I did note that it's the same message we've seen many times... Details: {u'message': u'No valid host was found. There are not enough hosts available.', u'created': u'2014-11-19T16:57:33Z', u'code': 500} | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | like 10% failure I guess | 15:08 |
| matel | What was the failure ratio? | 15:08 |
| BobBall | No idea | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: that means you have too many instances running | 15:08 |
| BobBall | we'd need maybe 100 runs to get a ratio | 15:08 |
| BobBall | You think it's running out of RAM then? | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | oh wait, maybe not... | 15:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | we need the other instance faults in the DB for that instance | 15:09 |
| * BobBall checks screen-n-sch... | 15:09 | |
| matel | It's gonna be a hard nut to crack | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | its possible it was retrying, and then runs out of hosts | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | thats more likely I guess | 15:09 |
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| BobBall | screen-n-sch is taking _ages_ to get from the CDN! | 15:10 |
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| BobBall | it's only 31k but has been downloading for over 60 seconds so far... | 15:10 |
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| * BobBall strums his fingers on the table | 15:10 | |
| johnthetubaguy | doh | 15:11 |
| BobBall | Let's move on and see if that loads later. | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more for any more? | 15:11 |
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| matel | Neutron does not run in parallel for some reason. | 15:12 |
| matel | But it ran in serial. | 15:12 |
| matel | Let me dig out the results. | 15:12 |
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| matel | http://paste.openstack.org/show/137612/ | 15:12 |
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| BobBall | 21 failures in parallel was that? I don't remember | 15:13 |
| BobBall | or was that 21 failures when we went serial only? | 15:13 |
| BobBall | That must have been serial only, sorry | 15:13 |
| BobBall | worker 0 only :) | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I have a feeling neutron broke in parallel | 15:13 |
| BobBall | We got lots more failures running in parallel didn't we | 15:13 |
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| BobBall | Sure - but it's run in parallel for -infra | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | some races still in iptables, I think I was told | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | hmm, odd | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess it muss be now | 15:14 |
| BobBall | Ah - that might not be using iptables | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways | 15:14 |
| BobBall | matel: Which firewall was that with? | 15:14 |
| matel | We are not using iptables either | 15:14 |
| BobBall | Now using noop? | 15:14 |
| matel | y | 15:14 |
| BobBall | OK | 15:15 |
| BobBall | Do you know who might have more details on the races you're thinking of johnthetubaguy ? | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: trying to remember... | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: we don't have the neutron call back libvirt have implemented to avoid lots of those races, it probably related | 15:16 |
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| johnthetubaguy | libvirt has instance events call back to say neutron has completed, or something like that | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | basically there is a wait for event thing in libivrt | 15:16 |
| BobBall | I see | 15:17 |
| BobBall | So what does that do? | 15:17 |
| BobBall | stop neutron from running things in parallel until libvirt has said that X has finished? | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | not really | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | it waits to start the VM until neutron has set everything up | 15:18 |
| BobBall | So it's the nova driver _listning_ to the neutron event | 15:18 |
| BobBall | so if the issue is what you're thinking of we don't need the nova driver to emit events | 15:18 |
| matel | We are experiencing failures with parallel runs | 15:19 |
| matel | If we were missing something like what you said, we would see failures with serial as well, don't we? | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes thats true | 15:19 |
| BobBall | No - because neutron has slowness issues | 15:19 |
| matel | Or maybe the higher load... | 15:19 |
| BobBall | so races will become more visible in parallel | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: +1 | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | you typed it before I did | 15:20 |
| matel | BobBall said the magic word: race | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, it is a race | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | it might be ready when you start the VM, it might not | 15:20 |
| BobBall | Let's just add a sleep 60. | 15:21 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so libvirt waits till its ready | 15:21 |
| BobBall | Sleep 60's always work. | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | right... | 15:21 |
| BobBall | ... if you have enough of them | 15:21 |
| matel | And they speed up the time it takes to run the tests. | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | what are the failures looking like? | 15:21 |
| BobBall | Paradixically there matel ... :) | 15:21 |
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| matel | gimme a sec | 15:22 |
| matel | tempest.api.compute.servers.test_attach_interfaces.AttachInterfacesTestJSON.test_create_list_show_delete_interfaces | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.api.compute.servers.test_attach_interfaces.AttachInterfacesTestXML.test_create_list_show_delete_interfaces | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.api.network.admin.test_quotas.QuotasTest.test_lbaas_quotas | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.api.network.test_service_type_management.ServiceTypeManagementTestJSON.test_service_provider_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_lb_healthmonitor_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_lb_member_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_lb_pool_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_lb_vip_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_meter_label_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.cli.simple_read_only.network.test_neutron.SimpleReadOnlyNeutronClientTest.test_neutron_meter_label_rule_list | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.scenario.test_load_balancer_basic.TestLoadBalancerBasic.test_load_balancer_basic | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.scenario.test_network_basic_ops.TestNetworkBasicOps.test_hotplug_nic | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.scenario.test_security_groups_basic_ops.TestSecurityGroupsBasicOps.test_cross_tenant_traffic | 15:23 |
| matel | tempest.thirdparty.boto.test_ec2_instance_run.InstanceRunTest.test_compute_with_volumes | 15:23 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I don't really mean that | 15:23 |
| matel | johnthetubaguy: these are the failed ones with serial | 15:23 |
| BobBall | test_hotplug_nic <-- we don't do that yet do we? | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | what sort of failures did those see? | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: I have code for that, but its not finished or merged | 15:24 |
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| BobBall | OK, great. | 15:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | are they ssh failure? | 15:24 |
| BobBall | We might want to talk about that in the new year | 15:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | BobBall: put it up for review a year ago or so | 15:24 |
| BobBall | *nod* | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | coded it in some airport after some US summit, while drinking something from starbucks | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | any more we want to debug now? or do this offline? | 15:26 |
| BobBall | Sounds like it doesn't even need reviewing - just merge it :D | 15:26 |
| BobBall | That's the perfect coding environment! | 15:26 |
| BobBall | No, I don't think there is more to talk about on that front | 15:26 |
| matel | no | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Open Discussion | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:27 | |
| johnthetubaguy | any more? | 15:27 |
| matel | nope | 15:28 |
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| BobBall | yes | 15:28 |
| BobBall | maybe | 15:28 |
| BobBall | should we talk about DIB? | 15:28 |
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| matel | We'll give a try to use DIB to create the domU's root filesystem | 15:29 |
| matel | So something like this: You have a qcow2 with a XenServer inside, on the SR sits a vhd containing domU's virtual disk | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, yeah, they are having "fun" using that in rackspace mind | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | crazy | 15:30 |
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| matel | ... Use tapdisk to mount the virtual disk.. | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, any more? | 15:30 |
| matel | No, thanks, thanks. | 15:30 |
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| johnthetubaguy | thanks all | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | #endmeeting | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 15:31:07 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-11-26-15.06.html | 15:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-11-26-15.06.txt | 15:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-11-26-15.06.log.html | 15:31 |
| BobBall | bye bye. | 15:31 |
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| thingee | #startmeeting cinder | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 16:00:02 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is thingee. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:00 |
| thingee | hi all | 16:00 |
| tbarron | hi | 16:00 |
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| jaypipes | o/ | 16:00 |
| Yogi2 | Hello | 16:00 |
| cknight | Hi | 16:00 |
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| TobiasE | Hi | 16:00 |
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| kaisers1 | hiya | 16:00 |
| bswartz | hey | 16:00 |
| xyang1 | hi | 16:00 |
| georgkunz | hi | 16:00 |
| thingee | agenda today is small, yay! | 16:00 |
| avishay | yoyoyo | 16:00 |
| thingee | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings | 16:00 |
| thingee | just a reminder because it has been coming up a couple of times, k-1 is the only time to get your new driver in | 16:01 |
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| DuncanT | Hey | 16:01 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 16:01 |
| e0ne | hi | 16:01 |
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| thingee | you can read more details here http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-October/049512.html | 16:01 |
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| enikher | hey | 16:01 |
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| thingee | I will be sending out a reminder to all potential new driver maintainers that are already targeted for k-1 that they're making slow progress and that we're aiming to merge december 18 | 16:02 |
| thingee | OK, lets begin | 16:02 |
| TobiasE | The blueprint is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/volume-status-polling. | 16:02 |
| thingee | #topic volume status poll | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "volume status poll (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:02 | |
| thingee | TobiasE: you're up | 16:02 |
| thingee | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/132225/ | 16:02 |
| thingee | for the cinder spec | 16:02 |
| TobiasE | thanks | 16:02 |
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| thingee | and for the nova spec: | 16:03 |
| thingee | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135367/ | 16:03 |
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| thingee | I'm assuming this is why I see a jaypipes in the audience this morning | 16:03 |
| thingee | :) | 16:03 |
| jaypipes | indeed :) | 16:03 |
| thingee | TobiasE: go ahead | 16:03 |
| TobiasE | We see some problems when running e.g. 100 attach | 16:04 |
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| TobiasE | The idea is to implement async between nova and cinder | 16:04 |
| avishay | TobiasE: 100 simultaneous attach operations to VMs? | 16:04 |
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| TobiasE | yes, high load scenarios | 16:05 |
| avishay | OK | 16:05 |
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| enikher | But not the vm attachment is failing. it is the communication towards the storage backend | 16:05 |
| TobiasE | We have timeouts on RPC or HA-proxy side | 16:06 |
| enikher | Since terminate and initialize_connection are calls not casts we face the rpc timeout here | 16:06 |
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| TobiasE | And then inconsistencies between backend and Cinder DB | 16:06 |
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| thingee | ok, so jgriffith raised the point that he would not want to see the timeouts raised. Which makes sense | 16:07 |
| thingee | DuncanT would rather see timeouts raised | 16:07 |
| DuncanT | API load is already an issue, so I'm not sure I'd like every attach polling. Maybe a blocking call that ends with 'Now poll' if it times out? | 16:08 |
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| thingee | I'm concerned you're going to see performance problems if you have a cinder volume polling, even with green threads | 16:08 |
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| avishay | why poll? no mechanism for callback? | 16:09 |
| thingee | the only difference is you won't have something that times out | 16:09 |
| DuncanT | i.e. time out the API call slightly faster than the RPC timeout | 16:09 |
| jaypipes | is there a way to query the backend storage array for how many ongoing attach requests are underway, and place the request for a new attachment into a queue and then return a polling URI to the caller? | 16:09 |
| TobiasE | DuncanT: Catching Exeption and then start polling? | 16:09 |
| DuncanT | TobiasE: If we can | 16:09 |
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| thingee | jaypipes: that's what I was thinking, but no we don't have something like that | 16:09 |
| DuncanT | jaypipes: That sounds plausible, but is a fairly big change | 16:10 |
| flip214 | a callback would be the cleanest solution, I think | 16:10 |
| * jaypipes personally has no problem with not having a timeout as long as there is some reliable way of knowing if the backend is actively working on (or has a queued) attachment reqyuest | 16:10 | |
| enikher | a worker queue in the cinder-volume manger is also a good idea | 16:10 |
| enikher | but does not solve the issue completly | 16:10 |
| DuncanT | The load a backend can cope with varies massively though.... | 16:10 |
| thingee | enikher: there's a patch with that and state problems with that. | 16:10 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: yes, I would suspect that. | 16:11 |
| DuncanT | flip214: A call back into nova? | 16:11 |
| enikher | Thingee could you past the patch? | 16:11 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT, flip214: that is what neutron does for NIC attachment. | 16:11 |
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| thingee | enikher: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135795/ | 16:11 |
| flip214 | DuncanT: basically, "whereever you like" ... simply putting an URL into the request that is being called upon completion. | 16:12 |
| thingee | flip214, jaypipes, TobiasE, DuncanT: makes sense to me | 16:12 |
| thingee | polling is soooo four years ago | 16:12 |
| avishay | yes | 16:12 |
| flip214 | or, perhaps, return OK if possible within one second; else say "later, will call URL" | 16:12 |
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| avishay | flip214: one code path is hard enough i think | 16:13 |
| flip214 | there are HTTP codes for that, I believe. | 16:13 |
| bswartz | flip214: I like that idea, but it makes the API harder to use through a firewall, because the callback could get blocked | 16:13 |
| jaypipes | flip214: yes, that is what neutron does. | 16:13 |
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| jaypipes | 202 Accepted. | 16:13 |
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| DuncanT | bswartz: This is nova talking to cinder, so if you have a firewall there you have bigger problems | 16:13 |
| flip214 | bswartz: in that case, the call has to be idempotent - and gets called until cinder says "done", every few seconds. | 16:13 |
| thingee | DuncanT: +1 | 16:13 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: right :) | 16:13 |
| flip214 | with all the disadvantages. | 16:13 |
| bswartz | nova isn't the only thing that does cinder volume attaches | 16:13 |
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| bswartz | cinder is consumed by other clients too | 16:14 |
| xyang1 | after cinder is done with initialize connection, nova side still need to discover the lun, etc. so attach is not complete just after cinder completes initialize_connection | 16:14 |
| flip214 | "discover"? isn't that passed from cinder to nova? | 16:14 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: Fair enough. I'd like to hear those usecases if there are specific ones, please? | 16:14 |
| xyang1 | flip214: nova side has some work to complete after cinder returns | 16:15 |
| xyang1 | flip214: that's why it waits currently | 16:15 |
| DuncanT | So the callback would cause that step to happen | 16:15 |
| flip214 | xyang1: yes, but I thought that cinder passes information like IP, LUN, etc back to nova. | 16:15 |
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| bswartz | block storage as a service? that's not an obvious enough use case? some people like cinder but have problems with nova and choose to use something else, or they have something preexisting that they choose to use instead of noca | 16:15 |
| jaypipes | so, bottom line, is that the cinder+nova contributor communities need to settle on either supporting long polling or supporting push based notifications ala Neutron's NIC attachment APIs. | 16:15 |
| DuncanT | You still need a timeout there though, to deal with stuck backends etc | 16:15 |
| bswartz | s/noca/nova/ | 16:15 |
| xyang1 | flip214: nova needs to make sure the lun is visible to the host | 16:15 |
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| thingee | TobiasE: can we see the spec redone with callback in mind? | 16:16 |
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| TobiasE | Might need some help with that | 16:16 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: I know the principle, if there are any concrete cases you know of then I'd like to hear about them. I want to write a bare metal attach; if somebody has already done it then it might same me making mistakes they've already avoided | 16:16 |
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| thingee | TobiasE: seems like flip214 has some knowledge to help. :) | 16:17 |
| jaypipes | xyang1: it's the same problem domain for NIC attachment. Neutron sends information (the "port_binding" dict) to Nova when the NIC has been created inside the Neutron drivers, and Nova then uses the port_binding information to plug the VIF locally on the nova-compute node | 16:17 |
| thingee | TobiasE: I would like to see things expanded with functional tests though. | 16:17 |
| xyang1 | jaypipes: ok, then we should take a look of that implementation | 16:17 |
| bswartz | I'm not at liberty to speak about the case I'm aware of. In any case, I agree the firewall problems is an unlikely one -- just wanted to make sure it was considered. | 16:17 |
| avishay | bswartz: cinder already has calls to nova, so i don't think this adds new requirements | 16:17 |
| thingee | TobiasE: also bring in the warnings that bswartz into the spec. | 16:18 |
| TobiasE | thingee: Testing is essential here | 16:18 |
| jaypipes | xyang1: yes, that is what I recommend as well, but it relies on the cinder+nova contrib communities getting aligned on that direction. thus, I'm here :) | 16:18 |
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| DuncanT | bswartz: Fair enough | 16:18 |
| thingee | TobiasE: absolutely, i just meant the current state of the spec doesn't explaining the testing plan well. | 16:18 |
| xyang1 | jaypipes: ok thanks | 16:18 |
| thingee | #agreed cinder to do callback for attachments for clients to consume | 16:19 |
| thingee | #action TobiasE to update current spec with cinder doing callbacks for attachments | 16:19 |
| thingee | anything else? | 16:19 |
| DuncanT | Are we going to allow polling as well? | 16:19 |
| DuncanT | i.e. what does nova get if it calls attach a second time? | 16:19 |
| rushiagr | hi! | 16:20 |
| enikher | nova will timeout in live-migration | 16:20 |
| xyang1 | DuncanT: it still can be successful if it is already attached on the array | 16:20 |
| enikher | since initialize_connection is then longer then expected | 16:20 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: the second call should return a 409 Conflict, IMO. | 16:20 |
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| DuncanT | jaypipes: That makes things tricky if nova-compute got restarted or something.... | 16:21 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: because you don't want to create two callbacks inside Nova. only one. | 16:21 |
| thingee | enikher, DuncanT: these details can be worked on the mailing list http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/049756.html | 16:21 |
| enikher | What will happen if nova will not callback? | 16:21 |
| thingee | I just wanted TobiasE to be able to move forward | 16:21 |
| TobiasE | OK | 16:21 |
| thingee | thanks for the help jaypipes! | 16:21 |
| enikher | still we have the same timeout problem | 16:22 |
| bswartz | nova still needs a timeout in case the callback never comes | 16:22 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: if nova-compute gets restarted, the callback will have either been consumed from the MQ or not. If not, then the status of the volume attachment should be ERROR, and the user should be able to resubmit an attachment request. | 16:22 |
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| DuncanT | jaypipes: But cinder will never get told that nova didn't successfully attach | 16:22 |
| enikher | we need that live-sign to see that the backend is still working | 16:22 |
| jaypipes | bswartz: cinder should be able to copy the same retry/timeout code from the neutron work. | 16:22 |
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| jaypipes | DuncanT: I don't see how that is a problem? Isn't the storage backend the source of truth for that type of information? | 16:23 |
| flip214 | enikher: then just specify that the callback takes a parameter "in_progress=<step-number>" | 16:23 |
| enikher | not an neutron expert could you paste the commit? | 16:23 |
| DuncanT | jaypipes: No. There's the cinder db, and the backend, and currently they can get out of sync | 16:24 |
| xyang1 | jaypipes: currrently the state of the volume will be changed back to 'available' if timeout happens | 16:24 |
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| flip214 | well, I believe that the DB should always be the "should" state. | 16:24 |
| xyang1 | even though the array may have finished the attach operation | 16:24 |
| bswartz | jaypipes: does that involve cinder storing more state? typically cinder backends try to be stateless | 16:24 |
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| DuncanT | jaypipes: We can solve the current problem by making cinder queue a detach if it times out | 16:24 |
| flip214 | and the reality has to match what's there. | 16:24 |
| flip214 | so in case of conflict the attach operation needs to be re-doable on nova. | 16:25 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: right, but how is that Nova's problem? | 16:25 |
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| DuncanT | jaypipes: If nova thinks the attach is still happening, you get in a mess. The nova bdm is yet another piece of state that gets out of sync | 16:25 |
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| TobiasE | jaypipes: Haven't you worked on cleaning BDM up | 16:26 |
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| DuncanT | One option rather than polling or callback is just for cinder to clean up better on timeout | 16:27 |
| DuncanT | And leave nova to clean itself up | 16:27 |
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| jaypipes | DuncanT: ++ | 16:27 |
| enikher | then the user has to try again? | 16:27 |
| winston-d_ | BDM shouldn't be considered as a place store volume attaching state, 'cos you can attach a volume to a 'stopped' instance, BDM still exists, and volume not attached. | 16:27 |
| enikher | that is not good I think | 16:27 |
| DuncanT | This would mean that some attach calls fail and have to be retried, but that is the cloud way sometimes | 16:27 |
| jaypipes | DuncanT: if nova can call cinder to get volume metadata, and considers cinder's response authoritative, that would be ideal. | 16:27 |
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| flip214 | DuncanT: that means that on high load requests will fail, get requeued, and make still bigger load. | 16:28 |
| DuncanT | enikher: Sometimes it is better for the user to retry than to over complicate code - instance startup and volume create can fail and need retrying too | 16:29 |
| DuncanT | flip214: Hopefully the load spike will have passed by then | 16:29 |
| bswartz | flip214: there's a point at which any system will be overwhelmed -- at that point the caller must throttle his requests or expect failure | 16:29 |
| flip214 | I'd prefer to go the callback route, without looking at timeouts for now. that solves the high-load issue. | 16:29 |
| enikher | yes but the user does not get enough information to know that the backend is just overloaded | 16:29 |
| DuncanT | But the callbacks massively increase the odds of a 'stuck' system | 16:29 |
| DuncanT | Which can only be fixed by admin | 16:30 |
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| enikher | with very slow backends we had problems to attach 10 volumes | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | Rather than something the user can simple retry | 16:30 |
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| enikher | so that would mean the user has to do a lot of retries | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | enikher: Then buy a better backend IMO | 16:30 |
| flip214 | "simply retry" - based upon what information? she won't know whether the load spike is done. | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | flip214: Not having any timeouts is a total none-starter | 16:30 |
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| DuncanT | flip214: If the backend is broken then you end up with the user in an unfixable mess | 16:31 |
| enikher | Actually what do you think about estimating the timeout | 16:31 |
| flip214 | if the user can see the number of queued requests, and in which position some specific one is, she can see progress - or not. | 16:31 |
| thingee | DuncanT: if this is just to fetch the initialize_connection, how do we end up in a stuck state? If nova never sets the volume to in-use, can't cinder just roll it back? | 16:31 |
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| enikher | if you want to have a short ha-proxy timeout the timeout will often occur | 16:31 |
| DuncanT | flip214: That is way more complex than just saying 'rety some time' | 16:31 |
| DuncanT | thingee: Once you've done the prep work in order to return the connection info, how do you know when to roll back? | 16:32 |
| bswartz | I agree -- you always need a timeout to deal with the case where cinder had a critical hardware failure and was forced to restart | 16:32 |
| avishay | hopefully being able to scale out cinder-volume will also help with higher loads, and yes, backends need to be sane - i would open a bug for a backend that was so inefficient (if it was something the driver could fix) | 16:32 |
| thingee | DuncanT: that would be up to cinder. | 16:32 |
| flip214 | http://ferd.ca/queues-don-t-fix-overload.html - queues are good, but don't fix overload. | 16:32 |
| enikher | flip214: the backend is still working or not? | 16:32 |
| flip214 | but at least they can be used to _show_ whether there's progress-. | 16:32 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: Or when rabbit lost a message due to restarting, or a cinder service got restarted, or whatever | 16:32 |
| flip214 | having retries means (still) higher load, so I don't think the user should retry. | 16:33 |
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| DuncanT | flip214: Exposing queues to a cloud user is a nightmare | 16:33 |
| thingee | so here's where I'm going with this. If nova does an initialize_connection request, cinder does a call back. If nova disappears, cinder should roll it back, unless nova later does something with the call back and tells cinder to set the volume to in-use | 16:33 |
| DuncanT | flip214: Rate limit the retries just like you have to rate limit everything else to avoid DoS | 16:33 |
| enikher | flip214: estimate the timeouts? so that the polling is not done so frequently? | 16:33 |
| DuncanT | thingee: If cinder has rolled it back, then the work needs to be done again, which means another callback... ad infinitum for a slow backend | 16:34 |
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| thingee | DuncanT: there was no mention of another call back | 16:35 |
| flip214 | enikher: estimating based upon what? that's another guess-game. | 16:35 |
| thingee | update status is an api call, which just passes to cinder db | 16:35 |
| winston-d_ | thingee: wait, what happen when a user attach a volume to a stopped instance, initialize_connection() can be called but the actual attach operation can be long after. | 16:35 |
| avishay | I agree with DuncanT - the spike should be over very quickly and the user can retry. if the spike lasts a long time then it's not a spike and the cloud sucks | 16:35 |
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| thingee | winston-d_: exactly | 16:35 |
| DuncanT | avishay++ | 16:35 |
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| winston-d_ | thingee: what i meant was in that cinder, cinder shouldn't rely on callback. | 16:36 |
| winston-d_ | s/in that cinder/in that case/ | 16:36 |
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| DuncanT | So our number one support call for LVM is 'my volume is stuck in attaching/detaching' - this sounds like it will make that way worse | 16:36 |
| thingee | Honestly I think if the backend is under load, cinder should rely on the call back. if it's not, it should continue behavior as normal | 16:37 |
| winston-d_ | guitarzan: what do you think? | 16:37 |
| thingee | majority of us apparently won't even notice different behavior because according to the feedback in the spec, we're all user super fast solutions that don't bog down on load. | 16:38 |
| DuncanT | Two paths means more testing, more bugs and more failures | 16:38 |
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| thingee | DuncanT: I know, extra work is a bummer. | 16:38 |
| DuncanT | If most people don't use a code path, it /will/ end up weirdly broken over time | 16:38 |
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| thingee | My proposal went unanswered, so I'm going with that until someone responds. I'll raise it on the mailing list again though | 16:39 |
| enikher | So callback does not seem to be helpful or? | 16:39 |
| thingee | this topic is dead imo for this current meeting. | 16:39 |
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| thingee | enikher: read my proposal I said twice in this meeting. | 16:39 |
| thingee | #topic Over-Subscription Alternative | 16:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Over-Subscription Alternative (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:39 | |
| thingee | bswartz: you're up | 16:40 |
| bswartz | hey guys | 16:40 |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129342/ | 16:40 |
| bswartz | I'm the lone voice of negativity here | 16:40 |
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| thingee | bswartz: not in this meeting :) | 16:40 |
| bswartz | but I proposed an alternative to xyang's oversubscription proposal | 16:40 |
| bswartz | basically I have 2 concerns | 16:41 |
| xyang1 | thingee: everyone said we were all in agreement on this topic before the summit:) | 16:41 |
| bswartz | 1) I don't think it's the right UI for administrators to put oversubscribe ratios in the cinder.conf file -- I think it's better to make them an aspect of the volume_type | 16:41 |
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| avishay | bswartz: why? | 16:42 |
| bswartz | 2) I think it's a bad idea to implement oversubscription by having the backends effectively lie to the scheduler about how much free space they have, I think the scheduler should know the true values and implement oversubscription itself | 16:42 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: I think you can only calculcate over subscription ratio for a backend or a pool, not a volume type though | 16:43 |
| bswartz | avishay: thick provisioning (as opposed to thin) may be a value-add option you want to sell to users who are willing to pay more | 16:43 |
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| DuncanT | bswartz: re 2) I sort of agree | 16:43 |
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| xyang1 | because a volume type can be associated with multiple backends, a single backend, or a backend can support multiple volume types | 16:43 |
| DuncanT | re 1) though, the problem is that if a backend fills up with bronze volumes then that doesn't help the gold volumes at all | 16:43 |
| bswartz | xyang1: I attempted to answer that question in my followup comment on the review | 16:44 |
| xyang1 | I just can't see how the formula will work to compare capacities from a backend with a ratio of a type | 16:44 |
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| asselin_ | \o | 16:44 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: my understanding is xyang1's proposal doesn't 'lie' to scheudler, it's a fact that right now, scheduler doesn't know the oversubscription ratio of backends, even though it knows actual/virtual provisioned capacity. | 16:44 |
| jaypipes | xyang1, TobiasE, enikher: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/virt/libvirt/driver.py#L4453-L4526 <-- the relevant code for how NIC plugging events are handled. | 16:44 |
| xyang1 | jaypipes: thanks! we'll take a look | 16:44 |
| bswartz | DuncanT: so mixing gold and bronze on the same backend only works if the backend is enable to enforce that the gold volumes get all the space they're promised | 16:44 |
| thingee | bswartz: hasn't the backend been able to lie to cinder scheduler for a while? | 16:44 |
| jaypipes | xyang1, TobiasE, enikher: it's not pretty, but it works... | 16:44 |
| thingee | bswartz: infinite | 16:44 |
| bswartz | I proposed that backends also report a "space_reservation" capability | 16:45 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: Quite. I don't think most can do that | 16:45 |
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| thingee | jaypipes: thanks | 16:45 |
| bswartz | DuncanT: NetApp can do that -- I'm pretty sure EMC can do that -- LVM can do it | 16:45 |
| TobiasE | jaypipes: thanks | 16:46 |
| thingee | bswartz: WRT to #2, hasn't the backend been able to lie to scheduler for a while now? by saying "infinite" | 16:46 |
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| DuncanT | bswartz: LVM can? Ok. objection withdrawn | 16:46 |
| bswartz | IMO it's pretty dumb to implement thin provisioning if you don't have a way to exempt some things from the thin provisioning | 16:46 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: we have 'reserved_percentage' since filter_scheduler is introduced, but it's never used. what's the difference between this and 'space_reservation'? | 16:46 |
| bswartz | otherwise you're asking for disaster | 16:46 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: is space_reservation actually a thick lun? | 16:47 |
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| bswartz | xyang1: yes -- it would be thick luns | 16:47 |
| bswartz | winston-d: it's important that the reservation only applies to volumes for which the "gold" promise was made | 16:47 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: you can still create thick luns. this proposal doesn't prevent that | 16:47 |
| bswartz | a space reserve % is a blanker reserve across the whole backend | 16:47 |
| bswartz | blanket* | 16:47 |
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| jaypipes | xyang1, TobiasE, enikher: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/compute/manager.py#L532 <-- the wait_for_instance_event() main method. | 16:48 |
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| xyang1 | bswartz: there's already a used ratio that controls how much is really used | 16:48 |
| flip214 | jaypipes: thank you. | 16:48 |
| xyang1 | jaypipes: thanks! | 16:48 |
| jaypipes | no problemo :) | 16:48 |
| bswartz | anyways I'm not married to my proposal -- I think some middle ground can be found between what xyang proposed and what I proposed | 16:49 |
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| bswartz | I just wanted to raise those 2 concerns and suggest some ways to work around them | 16:49 |
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| thingee | bswartz: the used ratio xyang1 mentioned doesn't help? | 16:49 |
| DuncanT | If you really can do per-volume reservations and get accurate answers out of the backend summing them then that sounds preferable | 16:49 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: so I think your driver can still calculate free space the way you described and send back to scheduler | 16:49 |
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| bswartz | the current proposal makes it impossible to mix "gold" and "bronze" storage on the same backend, assuming the admin wants gold to be thick and bronze to be thin | 16:50 |
| DuncanT | I think I'm starting to agree with Ben here | 16:50 |
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| thingee | xyang1: do you have any plans to mix the different types? | 16:51 |
| flip214 | bswartz: it's possible. you only have to do one thin pool per thin LV ;) | 16:51 |
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| bswartz | flip214: are you referring to cinder pools? | 16:51 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: there are unresolved issues with Ben's proposal, so I'm still not sure | 16:51 |
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| bswartz | in priciple, a backend could have 2 pools, each with different oversubscribe amounts | 16:52 |
| bswartz | but how would the admin enter that info into cinder.conf? | 16:52 |
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| thingee | xyang1: what's what? | 16:52 |
| xyang1 | thingee: the over subscription ratio should really be calculated for a pool or backend | 16:52 |
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| bswartz | xyang1: did you read my followup comment that answers your question? | 16:53 |
| xyang1 | it is the ratio of virtual capacity over total capacity | 16:53 |
| bswartz | I can write up a whole spec if I need to to spell out all the details | 16:53 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: did you just update? | 16:53 |
| bswartz | but I'd rather just adjust the existing spec | 16:53 |
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| bswartz | xyang1: like 2 hours ago | 16:53 |
| thingee | bswartz: xyang1 already replied back to you | 16:53 |
| * jaypipes goes off hunting for lunch... | 16:53 | |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: the driver should expose some per-pool level config options to solve that problem - per pool overcommit amounts | 16:53 |
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| DuncanT | winston-d_: Tricky with dynamic pools | 16:54 |
| bswartz | DuncanT: that's what I was thinking | 16:54 |
| winston-d_ | DuncanT: unfortunately yes. | 16:55 |
| bswartz | if we can make new pools dynamically, then the driver will have to make up some value or use a default under the existing spec | 16:55 |
| thingee | 5 minute warning | 16:55 |
| bswartz | I just have a feeling that the scheduler is in a better position than the backends to make decisions about where and when to oversubscribe, and if the scheduler needs more data from the backends to do so, then let's implement that | 16:55 |
| * DuncanT would like to read some more details of bswartz' approach, if that is doable? | 16:55 | |
| flip214 | bswartz: +1 | 16:56 |
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| DuncanT | It feels like it better answers the questions like dynamic pools and mixing types | 16:56 |
| xyang1 | so the problem is scheduler gets free capacity from backend | 16:56 |
| xyang1 | scheduler doesn't calculate free capacity for the backend | 16:56 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: i agree with your last statement, but i thought that was what xyang1's proposal plan to do? | 16:56 |
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| xyang1 | to do what bswartz suggested, it seems to be a big over haul of the scheduler | 16:57 |
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| bswartz | winston-d: it's a step in the right direction, but I think we can do better | 16:57 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: so the formula you provided to calculate free space, that should be executed by the driver and report back in stats | 16:57 |
| xyang1 | the scheduler doesn't calculate that | 16:57 |
| bswartz | just to be clear -- I'm not completely opposed to xyang's approach -- it's an improvement | 16:58 |
| xyang1 | available_capacity | 16:58 |
| bswartz | I'm just worried that we're commiting ourselves to an interface that can't be improved on later | 16:58 |
| bswartz | DuncanT: I can write a whole new spec | 16:58 |
| bswartz | or a wiki or something | 16:58 |
| bswartz | make a wall of text on the ML? | 16:59 |
| bswartz | s/make/maybe/ | 16:59 |
| winston-d_ | bswartz: thx, that'll be very helpful. | 16:59 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: It sounds like picking any one of those would be a good idea. Spec seems the most logical | 16:59 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: so that is a problem because scheduler doesn't calculate available capacity for a backend | 16:59 |
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| thingee | xyang1: +1 | 16:59 |
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| bswartz | xyang: looks like you and I will have to meet up again offline | 17:00 |
| thingee | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| xyang1 | bswartz: sure | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 17:00:08 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-11-26-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-11-26-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-11-26-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
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| thingee | continuing on #openstack-cinder | 17:00 |
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| rushiagr | o/ | 17:00 |
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| notmyname | swift meeting time | 19:00 |
| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 19:00:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:00 |
| notmyname | hello, world | 19:00 |
| notmyname | who's here for the swift meeting? | 19:00 |
| kota_ | o/ | 19:00 |
| gvernik | hello | 19:00 |
| acoles | \o | 19:00 |
| *** johnthetubaguy is now known as zz_johnthetubagu | 19:01 | |
| mahatic | o/ | 19:01 |
| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 19:01 |
| notmyname | a few things to talk about today | 19:01 |
| notmyname | I know cschwede isn't around | 19:01 |
| notmyname | peluse: are you here? | 19:02 |
| notmyname | (for later) | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | and I'm guessing the US thanksgiving is keeping others out | 19:02 |
| cutforth | hello | 19:02 |
| notmyname | #topic testing changes | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "testing changes (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:02 | |
| * cutforth is glad i got daylight savings sorted out with UTC | 19:03 | |
| notmyname | cutforth: :-) | 19:03 |
| notmyname | so...cool stuff in the openstack-infra world that affect us | 19:03 |
| notmyname | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137184/ | 19:03 |
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| notmyname | tl;dr is that the tests run against swift patches should be reduced | 19:03 |
| clayg | whoa - i'm late | 19:03 |
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| notmyname | in the commit message there's a link to the mailing list thread on it | 19:04 |
| notmyname | looks like it hasn't landed yet, but I'm hoping it will soon | 19:04 |
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| mahatic | cool | 19:04 |
| notmyname | I'm hoping this will reduce the chances for swift patches to fail in the check and gate queues. resulting in shorter times to land patches because of less need for "recheck" | 19:05 |
| notmyname | (also, torgomatic bot thanks for posting those comments all the time) | 19:05 |
| torgomatic | hehe :) | 19:05 |
| notmyname | any questions about that change? | 19:05 |
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| notmyname | #topic swift CLI/SDK changes | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift CLI/SDK changes (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:06 | |
| notmyname | this one is kinda big, and a follow up to what we talked about last week and at the summit | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | as a recap....well let me post the link | 19:07 |
| notmyname | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-swift-swiftclient | 19:07 |
| notmyname | the bottom of that etherpad is where we've been taking notes on what to do | 19:07 |
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| notmyname | the general plan is to focus new client SDK dev work in openstack-sdk | 19:07 |
| notmyname | I've been talking with that team this week, and mentioned it to ttx yesterday. | 19:08 |
| clayg | notmyname: fwiw i haven't looked at the openstack sdk at all | 19:08 |
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| notmyname | clayg: I have a little. they're is very little there right now for swift | 19:08 |
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| notmyname | briancurtin has been most responsive in #openstack-sdks | 19:09 |
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| clayg | notmyname: do they have something that looks like "def api_action(parts, of, the, request, as=parameters): ... return status, headers, body" | 19:09 |
| clayg | k, i should hang out in there | 19:10 |
| notmyname | clayg: https://github.com/stackforge/python-openstacksdk/tree/master/openstack/object_store | 19:10 |
| notmyname | they don't have much at all now | 19:10 |
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| clayg | notmyname: k, that's probably for the best! | 19:11 |
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| notmyname | :-) | 19:11 |
| clayg | oh, no, it's OO :\ | 19:11 |
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| clayg | that's at least one level too high for where we want to start ;) | 19:12 |
| notmyname | hi briancurtin :-) | 19:12 |
| briancurtin | hey | 19:12 |
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| notmyname | clayg: I think they'd be happy for us to make it better. so far briancurtin et al have been very receptive to ideas. of course nobody has proposed code yet ;-) | 19:12 |
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| sweston | asselin: mmedvede the next version of the script is posted. will be testing it again today. now, all of the subtree splits are done on a single cloned merge repo. this will be much easier for us to track and update the history on the entire repository. | 19:13 |
| clayg | notmyname: ack, i should get on that! | 19:13 |
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| clayg | notmyname: be nice to get in there before things 1.0 on us | 19:13 |
| notmyname | AFAIK there isn't yet any high-level design for "here's what the SDK must look like". which is good | 19:13 |
| notmyname | clayg: +1000 | 19:13 |
| briancurtin | yep, not a whole lot is nailed down, it's all fairly malleable, especially at the higher-levels | 19:14 |
| notmyname | briancurtin: is that true? any existing thing yet? | 19:14 |
| sweston | (sorry, guys, wrong room) | 19:14 |
| clayg | sweston: it's cool - we're just hanging out | 19:14 |
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| notmyname | briancurtin: cool. great to hear | 19:15 |
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| notmyname | we haven't yet discussed how reviews will work for swift stuff in openstack-sdk. ie who reviews, who approves, etc. I want to figure that out when/if it becomes a problem | 19:16 |
| notmyname | briancurtin: is there anything we should be aware of there? | 19:16 |
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| clayg | notmyname: let's start with patches. | 19:16 |
| notmyname | clayg: right. my thoughts exactly | 19:16 |
| notmyname | :-) | 19:16 |
| clayg | k, enough on that then - unless we want to talk tatics of most important patches or design | 19:16 |
| notmyname | anyone else ahve any questions about it? | 19:17 |
| briancurtin | yeah there's not a lot of process here (yet), just want to enable | 19:17 |
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| notmyname | ok, next topic | 19:18 |
| notmyname | thanks for saying hi, briancurtin! | 19:18 |
| notmyname | #topic EC status update | 19:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "EC status update (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:18 | |
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| notmyname | peluse: clayg: torgomatic: what's going on with EC this week? | 19:19 |
| notmyname | what's top of the list to review? | 19:19 |
| clayg | well you merged the don't store errors in the ring, so we need to merge master and update the node index stuff | 19:19 |
| torgomatic | well, the error-limiting patch just landed, so that'll make the plumbing better for indexes | 19:19 |
| clayg | merge master, fix node index | 19:19 |
| torgomatic | clayg++ | 19:19 |
| clayg | yay yay yay! | 19:19 |
| notmyname | gogogogogogogo! | 19:20 |
| clayg | after that sam is going to write a GET path and the whole world is going to change | 19:20 |
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| torgomatic | at a minimum, it'll rotate slightly slower | 19:20 |
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| notmyname | anyone have any questions on EC? | 19:21 |
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| clayg | peluse: notmyname: torgomatic: I'd acctually like to know how to do the master merge if someone could shoulder surf maybe? | 19:22 |
| notmyname | clayg: ya, I can do that with you today | 19:22 |
| torgomatic | clayg: sure, I'll head over once the meeting is done | 19:22 |
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| torgomatic | that's all I have about EC | 19:22 |
| clayg | i'm sorta interested in doing more pushing ec refactors into master and merging them back in this round than we did with storage policies - it's something I feel like I could help with | 19:22 |
| notmyname | cool | 19:22 |
| clayg | notmyname: torgomatic: kk | 19:22 |
| clayg | that's it on EC from me | 19:22 |
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| notmyname | ok, thanks | 19:23 |
| notmyname | #topic priority reviews | 19:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "priority reviews (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:23 | |
| notmyname | I wanted to ask about a couple | 19:23 |
| notmyname | what are we waiting on for fsync() dirs? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/126923/ | 19:23 |
| * clayg yawns | 19:23 | |
| notmyname | acoles: tdasilva: ? | 19:23 |
| acoles | i had two queries... | 19:24 |
| tdasilva | notmyname: ppai has been doing some research on the fsync tree question | 19:24 |
| notmyname | ok | 19:24 |
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| clayg | OMG will this patch ever merged?! https://review.openstack.org/#/c/131238/ | 19:24 |
| acoles | 1. do we need to run the fsync all the way up a new directory tree or is it sufficient to fysnc the leaf and assume the fs does the rest | 19:24 |
| tdasilva | but so far he has only found out what i had already posted | 19:24 |
| tdasilva | our understanding is that because of xfs journaling you only need to do on the leaf | 19:25 |
| acoles | 2. is it ok to not worry so much about quarantined objects - proposal is to not fsync their dirs | 19:25 |
| torgomatic | clayg: my recheck-bot's persistence will get it in there eventually | 19:25 |
| clayg | acoles: fsyncs are for suckers - we have three copies it'll be fine | 19:25 |
| tdasilva | maybe torgomatic could also take a lok at that | 19:25 |
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| notmyname | clayg: in 3 buffers ;-) | 19:26 |
| clayg | tdasilva: maybe *after* EC GET | 19:26 |
| acoles | clayg: lets rip em all out then!) | 19:26 |
| clayg | notmyname: exactly! | 19:26 |
| * clayg is totally down | 19:26 | |
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| torgomatic | acoles: I'm much less worried about losing a known-broken thing than a good one, especially if the consequence is that the broken guy stays put until the next auditor run and then gets removed | 19:26 |
| torgomatic | er, quarantined | 19:26 |
| notmyname | acoles: by gut reaction is that quarantines don't need dir fsyncs. they're already known bad | 19:26 |
| acoles | torgomatic: i put an example on the review where the known bad doesnt stay around | 19:27 |
| acoles | torgomatic: notmyname : i'm not digging in on the quarantines but wanted a discussion (so good we're having it) | 19:27 |
| clayg | idk, i guess i've seen crazy looking directories that might have been the result of a missing fsync after a put, but it's more likely the missing fsync after a rsync | 19:27 |
| torgomatic | acoles: if the FS loses a file during a rename (using the rename() syscall), the FS is broken | 19:28 |
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| torgomatic | it's either got to move or not-move... isn't that one of those atomic things? | 19:28 |
| clayg | torgomatic: yeah! | 19:29 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: isn't that FS dependent? but for XFS that's supposed to be true | 19:29 |
| clayg | we could probably put it in and it'll turn out it's a noop that's like maginally more safe on some other filesystem | 19:29 |
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| clayg | acoles: tdasilva: torgomatic: notmyname: the only question is really the benchmark right? | 19:30 |
| acoles | torgomatic: its when you rename to another dir, then fsync the original dir (entry gone) then lose the destination dir | 19:30 |
| clayg | well I guess acoles has other questions | 19:30 |
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| notmyname | tdasilva: so ppai is still doing research? | 19:30 |
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| notmyname | or is that already done and recorded in gerrit? | 19:30 |
| clayg | acoles: why do we fsync the /tmp dir?! | 19:30 |
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| acoles | clayg:? | 19:30 |
| tdasilva | notmyname: I asked him to ping xfs guys on the question of going up the tree to fsync all the new dirs | 19:31 |
| clayg | .... i thought put's start out (orignal dir) in /tmp | 19:31 |
| torgomatic | acoles: right; I'm saying that if your FS code returns from that fsync() and the file doesn't have a directory entry *somewhere*, the FS is broken | 19:31 |
| clayg | well... /srv/node/sdX/tmp but w/e | 19:31 |
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| tdasilva | torgomatic: yes, that's exactly what I heard from one of our xfs guys | 19:32 |
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| acoles | clayg: ah, no the example i found was during replication and quarantining, not PUT path | 19:32 |
| * clayg feels like he's never gone looking for "complete" uploads in /tmp | 19:32 | |
| tdasilva | same thing about the leaf dir | 19:32 |
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| clayg | replication!? I think that almost definately needs less fsyncing that the intial write - i.e. I didn't think a suffix rsync currently had any fsyncing' | 19:32 |
| acoles | torgomatic: what i have read is unclear on that | 19:32 |
| torgomatic | acoles: I see | 19:33 |
| clayg | bah, if someone said it's best practice to fsync somewhere, and the code is already written, and we benchmark and it's fine we probably don't have much to argue on do we? | 19:33 |
| acoles | so backing up - the proposed change improves what we have at least! questions i have are whether more is needed | 19:34 |
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| notmyname | acoles: :-) | 19:34 |
| clayg | OTOH if we benchmark it and it *sucks* we're probably not going to do it without making it optional | 19:34 |
| torgomatic | acoles: hooray for shipping improvements! :) | 19:34 |
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| clayg | acoles: so are you +2 on the change as it stands? | 19:35 |
| acoles | clayg: like you said, some benchmark would be good first, but otherwise yes | 19:35 |
| notmyname | can anyone else commit to reviewing it? | 19:36 |
| notmyname | hmm...looks like my name is already on it ;-) | 19:36 |
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| notmyname | other patch... | 19:37 |
| notmyname | reworking splice/tee https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135319/ | 19:37 |
| notmyname | what's blocking on that? | 19:37 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: you're +2. so just another reviewer? | 19:37 |
| notmyname | swifterdarrell is on it, but he's out for the rest of the week | 19:38 |
| * clayg yawns | 19:38 | |
| notmyname | the clayg yawn. kinda like the creiht sigh ;-) | 19:39 |
| clayg | a) that's mean | 19:39 |
| clayg | b) they're not the same | 19:39 |
| notmyname | lol | 19:39 |
| clayg | ;) | 19:39 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: bueller? | 19:39 |
| torgomatic | notmyname: nothing's blocking on it IIRC | 19:39 |
| notmyname | ok, thnaks | 19:39 |
| notmyname | so for you non-USians, if you review it later this week, great! if not, we'll but darrell next week | 19:40 |
| torgomatic | it's a safety improvement; as it stands now, you can write a caller of splice() that scribbles on your process's memory in unexpected and exciting ways | 19:40 |
| torgomatic | we don't *have* any, but someone could write one | 19:40 |
| notmyname | ya, it's a Big Deal (tm) IMO | 19:40 |
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| notmyname | ok, last patch | 19:40 |
| notmyname | this is FYI | 19:40 |
| torgomatic | so merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135319/ and footguns-- | 19:41 |
| notmyname | the defcore stuff has made some progress. this is what the foundation is using to determine what is openstack and what isn't. | 19:41 |
| notmyname | there's a porposed patch for swift stuff. take a look if you are curious. | 19:41 |
| notmyname | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136677/ | 19:41 |
| notmyname | #topic open discussion | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:42 | |
| notmyname | anything else you want to bring up? | 19:42 |
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| clayg | notmyname: it bugs me to know end I can't get probetsts to exit 0 when I have ssync on | 19:42 |
| torgomatic | yes... let me get the link | 19:42 |
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| torgomatic | https://review.openstack.org/133315 | 19:43 |
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| clayg | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136548/ | 19:43 |
| clayg | oh yeah... that's a good one sam | 19:43 |
| clayg | looks like we need two - i'll take one | 19:43 |
| torgomatic | there are bytestrings that (a) are invalid UTF-8, (b) py2 accepts them, but (c) py3 doesn't, making objects with those names bad news for Swift's hypothetical py3 future | 19:44 |
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| notmyname | torgomatic: there's a whole lot of future. it might in fact have not-python2 in it | 19:44 |
| clayg | torgomatic: we're doing full py3 support right after we add the v1.1 api and rewrite the objet server in go right? | 19:44 |
| notmyname | clayg: sounds about right ;-) | 19:45 |
| notmyname | ok, I'll review the unicode one too | 19:45 |
| notmyname | clayg: what do you need on the ssync test one? just another reviewer? | 19:45 |
| torgomatic | well, when someone talks about rewriting Swift, my usual response starts with "go", so... maybe? | 19:45 |
| notmyname | so cschwede sent me a PM a while back: "Feel free to assign me tasks...." | 19:46 |
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| acoles | notmyname: yes, I'm already +2 on it (ssync probetest one) | 19:46 |
| notmyname | so, therefore, cschwede can you review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136548/ please? | 19:46 |
| notmyname | ;-) | 19:46 |
| notmyname | anything else to bring up in the meeting this week? | 19:47 |
| clayg | notmyname: yeah, if you use vagrant-swift-all-in-one (or try it out) it's easy enough to set your localrc file to build you an ssync saio and just run probetests on master then again on the patch | 19:47 |
| tdasilva | notmyname: I also asked cschwede to review the fsync patch | 19:47 |
| notmyname | cschwede: can do all the reviews! | 19:47 |
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| tdasilva | :-) | 19:48 |
| notmyname | clayg: cool. good info. thanks | 19:48 |
| notmyname | ok, if nothing else, let's adjourn | 19:48 |
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| tdasilva | happy thxgiving everyone | 19:48 |
| notmyname | thanks eveyone form attending. have a great rest of the week! | 19:48 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 19:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:48 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 19:48:52 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:48 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-11-26-19.00.html | 19:48 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-11-26-19.00.txt | 19:48 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-11-26-19.00.log.html | 19:48 |
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| sgordon_ | >.> | 21:59 |
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| sgordon_ | #startmeeting telcowg | 22:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 22:00:21 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sgordon_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: telcowg)" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'telcowg' | 22:00 |
| sgordon_ | #chair amitry | 22:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: amitry sgordon_ | 22:00 |
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| sgordon_ | #topic roll call | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: telcowg)" | 22:00 | |
| sgordon_ | hi all | 22:00 |
| smazziotta | hi | 22:00 |
| sgordon_ | who is around for the telco working group meeting | 22:00 |
| ian_ott | hello...Ian here | 22:00 |
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| dgollub1 | hi | 22:00 |
| sgordon_ | recognizing that many will already but off for thanksgiving | 22:00 |
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| sgordon_ | *be off | 22:00 |
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| amitry | present | 22:01 |
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| jrakerevelant | hi jannis here | 22:01 |
| sgordon_ | #topic use cases | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "use cases (Meeting topic: telcowg)" | 22:01 | |
| ian_ott | were the logs from last week posted? | 22:01 |
| sgordon_ | yes | 22:01 |
| sgordon_ | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/telcowg/2014/ | 22:02 |
| sgordon_ | i also sent them to the operators and developers list | 22:02 |
| gokrokve | hi | 22:02 |
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| ian_ott | k maybe the wiki needs an update | 22:02 |
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| sgordon_ | so | 22:03 |
| sgordon_ | i did some work on the wiki | 22:03 |
| sgordon_ | and moved use cases off to here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TelcoWorkingGroup/UseCases | 22:03 |
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| sgordon_ | the current three are a little too mixed probably | 22:03 |
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| sgordon_ | two VNF use cases and one (vlan trunking) which is effectively a requirement rather than a use case | 22:04 |
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| sgordon_ | though the context the latter came up in was justifying that requirement for neutron | 22:04 |
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| sgordon_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TelcoWorkingGroup/UseCases | 22:04 |
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| sgordon_ | there was some discussion about this in #openstack-nfv earlier in the week but i am trying to gauge what level to target the use cases at | 22:05 |
| sgordon_ | and how to come up with a meaningful template | 22:05 |
| sgordon_ | at the moment what i have is pretty high level/generic to give some freedom: | 22:05 |
| sgordon_ | * Title | 22:05 |
| ian_ott | i think the wiki previously had the ETSI 8 use cases, the key is to make them relevant to the openstack community | 22:06 |
| sgordon_ | * Description | 22:06 |
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| sgordon_ | * Characteristics | 22:06 |
| sgordon_ | * Requirements | 22:06 |
| ijw | Bear in mind use cases don't necessarily drive requirements individually, I think that's a problem we had with the old method - so it's fine to express a use case without trying to solve your openstack problems at the same time | 22:06 |
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| sgordon_ | right | 22:06 |
| sgordon_ | and in fact arguably preferable | 22:06 |
| aveiga | +1 | 22:06 |
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| aveiga | it's better for us to distill requirements at a baseline out of multiple use cases that to try to tailor your case to a specific technical function | 22:07 |
| jrakerevelant | a use case might even already possible to implement with openstack as is, correct? | 22:07 |
| sgordon_ | part of the problem with the way the ETSI 8 use cases is that they were listed with a very brief one sentence | 22:07 |
| sgordon_ | it wasn't really made relevant at all | 22:07 |
| sgordon_ | it was just here are the ETSI use cases | 22:07 |
| aveiga | jrakerevelant: absolutely | 22:07 |
| ian_ott | sgordon_: agree | 22:07 |
| sgordon_ | if they can be made relevant, then i think that would be good | 22:07 |
| jrakerevelant | we are currently onboarding a vEPC and i will see if there is a use case here | 22:08 |
| ijw | Frequently the changes to Openstack make a use case easier, or better (i.e. improving compute performance) but don't actualy enable it wholesale, I would say | 22:08 |
| sgordon_ | right so i think broadly vEPC is a use case not covered in what we have documented today | 22:08 |
| ijw | Depends. Mainly I'm saying don't write a blueprint in the form of a usecase | 22:08 |
| aveiga | I'd say for the ETSI cases we don't necessarily need them all in OpenStack, either | 22:08 |
| sgordon_ | of course not all vEPC are created equal ;) | 22:08 |
| sgordon_ | but got to start somewhere | 22:08 |
| aveiga | some of them belong here and some may not | 22:08 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: agrre | 22:08 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: agreed | 22:09 |
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| jrakerevelant | i am still trying to figure out how a use case can be general enough, some of the things we encounter is rather: how can I abstract from things like DPDK and SRIOV | 22:10 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, right - which i think is effectively what i did when i dumped your vlan trunking justification in as a a use case :/ | 22:10 |
| ijw | Bad sgordon_ | 22:10 |
| sgordon_ | :) | 22:10 |
| sgordon_ | easily deleted! :P | 22:10 |
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| ijw | Probably wise, and I'll see if I can get the relevant team to write up the actual use case that justifies it from our perspective | 22:10 |
| adrian-hoban__ | Also agree that ETSI-NFV defined use cases are very high level. Where is the link to them now for OpenStack folks if we need to refer back | 22:10 |
| sgordon_ | i believe it's in references at the bottom | 22:11 |
| sgordon_ | #link http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gs/NFV/001_099/001/01.01.01_60/gs_NFV001v010101p.pdf | 22:11 |
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| adrian-hoban__ | sgordon: Thanks, I missed the link | 22:12 |
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| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, to your point i think that is why there needs to be a high level description and coverage of characteristics of the workload | 22:12 |
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| jrakerevelant | is "virtualizing an IMS" really a use case for us though? | 22:13 |
| sgordon_ | and even requirements at a high level | 22:13 |
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| sgordon_ | well put it this way | 22:13 |
| jrakerevelant | its rather an application on top | 22:13 |
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| sgordon_ | im now down to two use cases | 22:13 |
| sgordon_ | so if you want to cut more then we need people to contribute some ;) | 22:13 |
| jrakerevelant | :) | 22:13 |
| amitry | we can work on adding some more | 22:13 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, define on top? | 22:13 |
| amitry | making openstack suitable to run IMS | 22:13 |
| jrakerevelant | no i dont want to remove it i want know if it is asking the right question | 22:13 |
| sgordon_ | from the discussion last week facilitating the workloads that run on top of openstack seemed to be the agreed focus | 22:13 |
| sgordon_ | for phase 1 | 22:14 |
| aveiga | sgordon_: I think it should be | 22:14 |
| sgordon_ | perhaps i am mis-paraphrasing though | 22:14 |
| jrakerevelant | amitry: right, with clearwater as a reference? | 22:14 |
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| aveiga | we need a target, rather than just to piecemeal implement t echnologies | 22:14 |
| ijw | Look - when it comes down to it a use case really needs to be described by either (a) a vendor with a widget who for whatever reason has some difficulty running it on stock openstack or (b) a telco who has a widget from somewhere and wants to describe what they would *like* to do with it rather than what's possible today | 22:14 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, right | 22:14 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, and i think both we have atm were cases of (a) | 22:14 |
| ijw | Yup | 22:14 |
| sgordon_ | which is perfectly fine | 22:14 |
| ijw | aveiga surely must have examples of b | 22:15 |
| sgordon_ | but would be great to get a mix of (b) | 22:15 |
| aveiga | ijw: we can bring that up a level, widget isn't always the only way to describe it :) | 22:15 |
| sgordon_ | #info "ijw> Look - when it comes down to it a use case really needs to be described by either (a) a vendor with a widget who for whatever reason has some difficulty running it on stock openstack or (b) a telco who has a widget from somewhere and wants to describe what they would *like* to do with it rather than what's possible today" | 22:15 |
| ijw | That's fine, I would expect an operator to have a picture in their mind of what they want to do with it and that's what you need to describe | 22:15 |
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| ijw | s/with it// | 22:15 |
| aveiga | for instance, I want to provide X type of service with X technological method | 22:15 |
| aveiga | maybe managed VPNs where I pick MPLS | 22:16 |
| sgordon_ | makes sense as a use case in this context i think | 22:16 |
| aveiga | or managed voice where I run a SIP gateway | 22:16 |
| ijw | Yup - and use cases are 'I want to provide X type of service' and perhaps a worked example of how you might do it, but if that's the case I think we should expect other people to add to the worked examples or at least quibble with design choices | 22:16 |
| aveiga | I agree | 22:16 |
| jrakerevelant | my main problem as a telco currently is that vendor X needs technology Y they say | 22:17 |
| jrakerevelant | and Y isnt easy to implement with vanilla openstack | 22:17 |
| sgordon_ | i think that is everyone's problem currently :) | 22:17 |
| ijw | Are we good with that? Stick the 'I want' on the wiki and let people argue the implementation at the bottom or at least pass comment in an etherpad? Or we could even have a repo with this crap in | 22:17 |
| aveiga | yup | 22:17 |
| jrakerevelant | so you start adding balconies that i dont want | 22:17 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, right | 22:17 |
| aveiga | ijw: I think that's the abstraction we want to start with | 22:17 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, i did dig into storyboard a bit this week but for simplicity i would say keep it on the wiki *for now* | 22:17 |
| ijw | jrakerevelant: A fascinating expression, and in that case your use case would be 'a client says they need Y' | 22:17 |
| aveiga | then we can debate the merits of individual implementations at a second level | 22:18 |
| ijw | At worst, and don't expect much sympathy if you put that in ;) | 22:18 |
| sgordon_ | #info Start with "I want" use cases on the wiki and let people argue the implementation at the bottom or at least pass comment in an etherpad | 22:18 |
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| ijw | Or perhaps the wrong sort of sympathy ;) | 22:18 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: well, but i dont necessary want to provide Y but an abstraction layer to Y | 22:18 |
| sgordon_ | aveiga, agree | 22:18 |
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| ijw | jrakerevelant: Best expressed as 'I want to do Y' and then we can debate the merits of various solutions up to and including changing Openstack | 22:19 |
| sgordon_ | right | 22:19 |
| sgordon_ | openstack design tenets ultimately favor abstraction of implementation anyway where possible... | 22:19 |
| ijw | Open source network architecture, this is going to be fun... | 22:19 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: yes probably | 22:20 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, you mentioned a vEPC you are looking to set up earlier | 22:20 |
| aveiga | the basis of it is that either a) OpenStack can do it now with some tweaks, in which case we document the tweaks, b) OpenStack can be made to do it, in which case we write up a BP or c) OpenStack can't be made to do it because the vendor of Y did it wrong, in which case we can't do much about it other than recommend options? | 22:20 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, would you be interested in trying to cover that use case? | 22:20 |
| adrian-hoban__ | jrakerevelant: If you add why you need to do Y, then I think it will help folks to understand much more quickly the value | 22:20 |
| sgordon_ | =1 | 22:21 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: maybe a few weeks in | 22:21 |
| sgordon_ | +1 even | 22:21 |
| ijw | aveiga: Even that's useful, but 'it would be much easier if we changed X' is a fine answer to the problem and one we can target. The 'openstack can do it with config tweaks' solutions tend to involve dedicating your whole cloud to a single application, which is bloody annoying | 22:21 |
| aveiga | ijw: I agree, but it's always those damned snowflakes that hold the purse strings... | 22:21 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: we are even struggling to find the most flexible way to integrate physical interfaces like eNode Bs | 22:21 |
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| jrakerevelant | we know how to do it in 3 different ways | 22:22 |
| jrakerevelant | but they all dont feel natural to openstack | 22:22 |
| ijw | aveiga: I know, and true enough, but you're trying to help reduce their infrastructure cost, and they will agree with you after sufficient whisky | 22:22 |
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| ijw | jrakerevelant: Again - 3 solutions and the one you'd like is fine | 22:22 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, right - i think documenting the config tweaks approach is more about illustrating how bad the current state is | 22:23 |
| ijw | Easier to pitch the change if there's background information | 22:23 |
| aveiga | ijw: I find your ideas intrigueing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter | 22:23 |
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| ijw | aveiga: it's very expensive but comes with whisky | 22:23 |
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| aveiga | jrakerevelant: put them up! No reason not to chat about them, because you may find someone knows a way to make more natural | 22:23 |
| aveiga | and if not, we can figure out which way is the most OpenStack-like (agnostic to forced solutions) and implement that | 22:24 |
| sgordon_ | #action sgordon to add a section to top of https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TelcoWorkingGroup/UseCases with guidance from this discussion on how to frame use cases | 22:24 |
| jrakerevelant | aveiga: you mean as a use case? | 22:24 |
| aveiga | jrakerevelant: absolutely | 22:24 |
| sgordon_ | yeah | 22:24 |
| aveiga | one use case,and provide the 3 ways you think it can be done | 22:24 |
| sgordon_ | you have an i want | 22:24 |
| sgordon_ | :) | 22:24 |
| ijw | About time someone started making app design recommendations, in fact. We kind of short change tenants in favour of cloud operators in the world of Openstack | 22:24 |
| aveiga | and we'll debate the 3 options | 22:24 |
| adrian-hoban__ | When we get to BPs for these things, it will be good to document the alternatives too | 22:24 |
| jrakerevelant | sounds good | 22:24 |
| aveiga | adrian-hoban__: agreed | 22:24 |
| aveiga | I don't even think it's wrong to implement multiple methods if they are not mutually exclusive | 22:25 |
| jrakerevelant | put in an action item, i will try to do it until next wednesday | 22:25 |
| aveiga | options are good for everyone | 22:25 |
| sgordon_ | #action jrakerevelant to document desire to integrate physical interfaces 'like eNode Bs' and current approaches as a use case | 22:25 |
| sgordon_ | right i was going to say before | 22:25 |
| sgordon_ | some of these things arent mutually exclusive | 22:25 |
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| ijw | jrakerevelant: as an aside did you see the cloud edge BP? | 22:25 |
| ijw | jrakerevelant: if not go look it up, but we should probably take that out of this meeting | 22:26 |
| sgordon_ | and at a high level may be expressed as i need to move packets at a certain rate or w/e | 22:26 |
| sgordon_ | but there are different ways to achieve that | 22:26 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: no pleas msg the link, or i google :) | 22:26 |
| ijw | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/cloud-edge-networking | 22:26 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/cloud-edge-networking | 22:26 |
| jrakerevelant | yupp found it | 22:27 |
| jrakerevelant | thanks | 22:27 |
| sgordon_ | ok | 22:27 |
| ijw | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136555/ | 22:27 |
| sgordon_ | so it's thanksgiving eve and i am not sensing a wealth of volunteers to throw up use cases | 22:27 |
| jrakerevelant | i just found out i know you ian | 22:27 |
| sgordon_ | but i can call out via M/L again | 22:27 |
| aveiga | sgordon_: I'll gladly do them, however I am on PTO for the next week... | 22:27 |
| ijw | jrakerevelant: Yeah, I worked out who you were a while back (but your name is a little more obvious ;) | 22:28 |
| sgordon_ | #action sgordon to issue call for use cases via M/L once UseCases page updated | 22:28 |
| sgordon_ | aveiga, np - it's more i want to make sure we capture a broad spectrum if possible | 22:28 |
| aveiga | absolutely | 22:28 |
| ijw | OK, there are three BPs worth checking, that one and the revenge of VLANs | 22:28 |
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| aveiga | and once I'm back, someone gently nudge me with a big stick | 22:28 |
| aveiga | ;) | 22:28 |
| ijw | We having a section on that? | 22:28 |
| jrakerevelant | whats the revenge of the vlans?? | 22:28 |
| sgordon_ | a new hope | 22:29 |
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| ijw | That wasn't a sequel | 22:29 |
| aveiga | BOOOOO | 22:29 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, the vlans? | 22:29 |
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| sgordon_ | sure why not | 22:29 |
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| sgordon_ | #topic vlan trunking redux | 22:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "vlan trunking redux (Meeting topic: telcowg)" | 22:29 | |
| ijw | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/nfv-vlan-trunks | 22:29 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/nfv-vlan-trunks | 22:29 |
| ijw | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/vlan-aware-vms | 22:30 |
| sgordon_ | i briefly caught the discussion you had with amuller about it y'day in the neutron channel | 22:30 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/vlan-aware-vms | 22:30 |
| ijw | Haven't checked the latter but I think Erik was facing Maru's -2 and Maru had somehow managed to miss that we want both to go through | 22:30 |
| jrakerevelant | i heard vlans are evil | 22:30 |
| jrakerevelant | ;) | 22:30 |
| ijw | It's a horror movie sequel | 22:30 |
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| aveiga | oh man am I in the wrong company | 22:30 |
| * aveiga likes 802.1q | 22:31 | |
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| ijw | aveiga: ipv6 is the answer, you know. Now what's the question again? | 22:31 |
| aveiga | ijw: it always is | 22:31 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: is it a requirement for legacy applications? | 22:31 |
| ijw | jrakerevelant: VLANs? | 22:31 |
| * sgordon_ struggles to find the spec link for erics | 22:31 | |
| aveiga | jrakerevelant: no, there are soome newer things that need it too | 22:31 |
| aveiga | i.e. MT-ISIS peers... | 22:31 |
| ijw | Partly yes, we expect to face VMs that like them, and partly no, we also and independently of NFV expect there to be VMs with lots and lots of network connections | 22:32 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136554/ | 22:32 |
| ijw | The former is more the VLAN trunk thing, the latter is more the port thing | 22:32 |
| sgordon_ | urgh that's yours :) | 22:32 |
| ijw | But the line is faint and easy to cross, in both directions | 22:32 |
| aveiga | ijw: the latter is the one I expect to see as a big deal, but also in an addresses-per-port issue as well | 22:32 |
| ijw | Yup, and Erik's spec addresses the port addressing | 22:33 |
| ijw | The former annoys me more, but that's a matter of what I face more often. We need both, that's all I'll say on the subject | 22:33 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94612/ | 22:33 |
| ijw | I suspect when we have them we will want to tweak them, but this time we need to make a concerted effort - all of us - to keep on top of the specs, review and criticise them, and then do the same for the code. | 22:34 |
| ijw | I am as guilty as anyone of this, but fast turnarounds, please | 22:34 |
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| sgordon_ | #info specs are up for review and need concerted review bandwidth and turnarounds | 22:35 |
| jrakerevelant | i think i am not the right person to judge if "we" need sth like that, so i trust in you guys | 22:35 |
| sgordon_ | #action sgordon to ask maru about -2 on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94612/ | 22:35 |
| ijw | The spec you don't have yet because I got a bit tied up in the details is the one for MTU specification and discovery - sorta kinda NFV related, for some applications (including one I have to deal with) and an annoyance to cloud users in general, too | 22:35 |
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| aveiga | +1 | 22:35 |
| adrian-hoban__ | Are these all captured on the wiki too? | 22:35 |
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| ijw | jrakerevelant: read it anyway, the worst that will happen is you don't vote | 22:35 |
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| aveiga | adrian-hoban__: no, because right now they're not use cases | 22:35 |
| aveiga | they're potential solutions | 22:36 |
| aveiga | but I intend to add some use cases that may need some of them | 22:36 |
| sgordon_ | #info ijw working on spec for MTU specification and discovery | 22:36 |
| ijw | sgordon_: other than that I think there were about 5 or so libvirt/KVM BPs mentioned in the summit Nova session, and I admit I've not been following them too closely | 22:36 |
| sgordon_ | yeah they are still progressing | 22:36 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: I'll lool into it | 22:36 |
| sgordon_ | lot of back and forth about the data model | 22:36 |
| sgordon_ | and still of course the issue of CI which i need to chase down | 22:36 |
| sgordon_ | there seemed to be some indication we may in fact be able to demonstrate them on HP Cloud infra at least | 22:37 |
| ijw | ... with me, I think, but I need to check with the opnfv guys about the hardware to be provided and bugger about with cobbler | 22:37 |
| adrian-hoban__ | Intel reps are starting to engage with the Infrastructure team now to get our CI in place | 22:37 |
| sgordon_ | yeah | 22:37 |
| aveiga | this is good news | 22:37 |
| sgordon_ | seems to be lots of hardware | 22:37 |
| ijw | sgordon_: I think we want both physical and virtual but virtual would be a real win even if it's not perfect | 22:37 |
| sgordon_ | trying to nail down a resource to "own" it | 22:37 |
| sgordon_ | right | 22:37 |
| sgordon_ | i still think we would need physical to demo the stuff adrian-hoban__'s team are working on with device locality | 22:38 |
| sgordon_ | i could be wrong though | 22:38 |
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| aveiga | actually, that's a good point. We should caveat that use cases asking for X performance rates may not be verifiable on all OpenStack CI systems | 22:38 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: what are the requirements on the virtual setup? | 22:38 |
| aveiga | and therefore YMMV | 22:38 |
| sgordon_ | but being able to get some of the other stuff into the gate rather than third party would be win | 22:38 |
| ijw | vhostuser is still an issue, we need a spec in Neutron again to get the Nova guys to agree to use it, and for that we need a controller that causes it to be used (even if it's not gating) | 22:38 |
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| adrian-hoban__ | sgordon: Yep, I think we need physical for a few of the items | 22:38 |
| ijw | jrakerevelant: Not the expert, but there's a ML thread with Dan Berrange that describes their thinking | 22:39 |
| sgordon_ | #info use cases caveats need to be added around ability of OpenStack CI to measure certain performance rate requirements etc. | 22:39 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: could you dig up the link maybe? | 22:39 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, basically you can actually expose a numa topology on libvirt/kvm | 22:39 |
| adrian-hoban__ | ijw: we're working up some plans on the vhost-user. Watch this space | 22:40 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, the key is whether we can orchestrate this on one of the clouds infra uses (or ideally both) | 22:40 |
| ijw | adrian-hoban__: Get it in, man ;) | 22:40 |
| sgordon_ | grabbing link | 22:40 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: ok | 22:40 |
| sgordon_ | i actually have someone who can help with that if needed adrian-hoban__ | 22:40 |
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| sgordon_ | though i think to ijw's point key is what if anything is done on the neutron side | 22:41 |
| sgordon_ | to ensure we can test it | 22:41 |
| ijw | http://osdir.com/ml/openstack-dev/2014-11/msg00602.html is the thread for testing | 22:41 |
| adrian-hoban__ | sgordon_: Would welcome that. Thanks | 22:41 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: awesome thanks | 22:41 |
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| sgordon_ | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/050469.html | 22:41 |
| sgordon_ | jrakerevelant, ^ | 22:41 |
| ijw | that too | 22:42 |
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| ijw | OK, so any more specs of interest right now? I know what I know, other people must also have opinions | 22:42 |
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| sgordon_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128825/ | 22:43 |
| sgordon_ | this recently picked up a -2, trying to explain the logic atm | 22:43 |
| sgordon_ | topic is optimizing virtio-net multiqueue usage | 22:43 |
| ijw | (virtio-net multiqueue - enhanced networking speed for supporting VMs) | 22:43 |
| ijw | Was that the one where Dan said that there's a limit on the number of queues per host, at the summit? | 22:44 |
| ijw | danpb, that would be | 22:44 |
| sgordon_ | per guest i think | 22:44 |
| sgordon_ | but yeah | 22:44 |
| adrian-hoban__ | ijw: Yep I think so | 22:45 |
| aveiga | that could get tricky at the scheduling level... | 22:45 |
| ijw | I wonder if that also aplies to singlequeue, in which case we probably have a repair job to do to the way nova schedules and should raise a bug | 22:45 |
| sgordon_ | vladik wasn't actually at the summit so dan and i were trying to explain it on his behalf | 22:45 |
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| ijw | OK, can you get the details from Vladik? Cos we should definitely check if that has wider implications, for starters | 22:46 |
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| sgordon_ | mmm | 22:47 |
| sgordon_ | are you saying in terms of it being a finite resource? | 22:47 |
| sgordon_ | as my understanding is there is a limit of # of queues per guest | 22:47 |
| sgordon_ | not a per host limit | 22:47 |
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| adrian-hoban__ | queues and MSIx | 22:48 |
| sgordon_ | yeah | 22:48 |
| sgordon_ | both guest side though afaik | 22:48 |
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| sgordon_ | while we're at it, and because i want aveiga to go on his PTO made with me | 22:49 |
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| sgordon_ | PXE boot was raised on the M/L again | 22:49 |
| sgordon_ | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/051561.html | 22:49 |
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| sgordon_ | question is whether in a cloud world that makes sense versus a PXE image in glance | 22:50 |
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| sgordon_ | monty also suggested on M/L that ironic already has PXE support (which im sure it does) that is driven by nova | 22:50 |
| aveiga | I still don't see a reason to do this | 22:50 |
| ijw | I don't have a use case, but we've used an iPXE image to boot a 'diskless' VM and that works just fine, albeit it has one disk. | 22:51 |
| sgordon_ | it's unclear | 22:51 |
| jrakerevelant | i dont see the use case | 22:51 |
| aveiga | I mean, if you're going to PXE boot something *not* in OpenStack, ok... | 22:51 |
| sgordon_ | i'd prefer to see a use case | 22:51 |
| jrakerevelant | i mean in a telco specific way | 22:51 |
| sgordon_ | everyone i have talked to about it has ended up putting the image in glance and being fine with it | 22:51 |
| ijw | Ironic is using PXE for entirely different and non-tenant-facing reasons and I don't think that's pertinent | 22:51 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, yeah that was my thought.... | 22:51 |
| aveiga | I can see needing to provide PXE services to outside devices | 22:52 |
| sgordon_ | mmm | 22:52 |
| sgordon_ | do we necessarily stop that though? | 22:52 |
| aveiga | I mean, booting a thin client farm that connects to a "remote desktop" farm? | 22:52 |
| clarkb | ijw: I think its pertinent in that ironic could maybe boot your VMs for you (which may be what mordred was getting at) | 22:52 |
| ijw | I presume the request is 'I want a machine with 0 disks and for it to load all it state into a RAMdisk from a remote server' and you can take that as meaning that you the tenant will provide the server or you want the system to do it for you, I guess | 22:52 |
| aveiga | sgordon_: yes, we block DHCP for good reason | 22:52 |
| ijw | I've done it with a tenant server. | 22:52 |
| sgordon_ | aveiga, you are no fun at all today | 22:52 |
| sgordon_ | ;p | 22:52 |
| aveiga | it's snowing here, so I'm passing along the pain :) | 22:53 |
| ijw | aveiga: Oh, god, the firewalling stuff, that's another can of worms we should at least mention so it's saved for next tie | 22:53 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, yeah | 22:53 |
| aveiga | ijw: +1 | 22:53 |
| sgordon_ | in the simplest case the tenant imo | 22:53 |
| sgordon_ | but still | 22:53 |
| aveiga | the implicit filtering stuff can be a pain for NFV uses | 22:53 |
| * sgordon_ shelves that | 22:53 | |
| aveiga | necessary for shared clouds though | 22:53 |
| ijw | sgordon_: let's get whoever it is to clarify their use case | 22:53 |
| ijw | aveiga: there are at least two BPs, hence can of worms | 22:53 |
| sgordon_ | #info PXE, much confusion, need documented use case | 22:54 |
| aveiga | ah | 22:54 |
| sgordon_ | ok so i had three more items | 22:54 |
| sgordon_ | i locked in the meeting time, obviously we're here so goodo | 22:54 |
| ijw | Run, Forrest, run! | 22:54 |
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| sgordon_ | jannis added a glossary | 22:54 |
| sgordon_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/w/index.php?title=TelcoWorkingGroup/Glossary&action=edit&redlink=1 | 22:54 |
| sgordon_ | or at least a placeholder for one | 22:55 |
| sgordon_ | and finally last weeks hot topic | 22:55 |
| ijw | I like that glossary as it is | 22:55 |
| sgordon_ | #topic orchestration | 22:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "orchestration (Meeting topic: telcowg)" | 22:55 | |
| sgordon_ | mkoderer, still around | 22:55 |
| sgordon_ | ? | 22:55 |
| ijw | I think it sums up the problem nicely | 22:55 |
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| sgordon_ | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-November/051473.html | 22:55 |
| sgordon_ | ijw, it needs one of those mental puzzle images | 22:55 |
| jrakerevelant | sgordon_: yeah i didnt know what to put in there yer | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | mkoderer took an action to kick off a thread about orchestration and keep working on the etherpad last week | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | that happened | 22:56 |
| aveiga | I'm actually really curious as to where we think the line should be drawn for NFV orchestration within OpenStack | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | from a use cases perspective we determine that wasn't the initial focus | 22:56 |
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| sgordon_ | *determined | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | aveiga, right | 22:56 |
| aveiga | I mean, we don't expect OpenStack to orchestrate network gear outside of the stack, right? | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | aveiga, well - i dont | 22:56 |
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| aveiga | I certainly don't want OpenStack (no offense) to manipulate my routers... | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | but i am but one man! | 22:56 |
| ijw | aveiga: Well, I think there are two questions, really | 22:56 |
| sgordon_ | and what about tripleo... | 22:57 |
| * sgordon_ ducks | 22:57 | |
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| ijw | aveiga: clearly, anything that is 'a part of the cloud' and not an individual device needs a cloud API, implying Openstack, to make it do stuff and things | 22:57 |
| aveiga | that's the point of heat | 22:57 |
| sgordon_ | yeah | 22:57 |
| ijw | aveiga: that aside, how do you start and restart your VMs, configure them, etc? That could be Heat or a similar aaS offering - which is not the very minimal core of Openstack, but it is Openstack - or it could be an application. I suspect both cases are relevant and required | 22:58 |
| sgordon_ | and i think zane or someone expressed interest from a heat perspective on the thread | 22:58 |
| sgordon_ | like everyone they need use cases though | 22:58 |
| ijw | aveiga: it's not really - Heat tells other services what to do | 22:58 |
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| aveiga | ijw: exactly. What I'm getting at is we should provide an ETSI orchestration tool with the northbound interface of OpenStack | 22:58 |
| ijw | aveiga: so if I had some random (potentially virtualisable) network device that made my VNFs 10x sexier, then I would expect there to be some service - perhaps a new one - to orchestrate it, then I would expect Heat to boss it about | 22:59 |
| aveiga | I don't think we should be in the business of building the tools to orchestrate everything including the xternal systems | 22:59 |
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| ijw | aveiga: +1, I totally agree with that | 22:59 |
| aveiga | ijw: that's totally fine, but wouldn't that network device's interface to OpenStack bee a third party driver? | 22:59 |
| aveiga | we have ways of building those already | 22:59 |
| ijw | Depends what it does | 22:59 |
| ijw | It may have a totally new and shiny API, in which case it's probably a new endpoint (which is also fine, imo) | 23:00 |
| sgordon_ | the other project that came up on that thread was murano | 23:00 |
| aveiga | yeah, but I have yet to see anything that requires that much more of OpenStack than we already provide | 23:00 |
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| sgordon_ | but of course that is still very inwardly openstack-focussed | 23:00 |
| sgordon_ | not external systems | 23:00 |
| adrian-hoban__ | I agree from the perspective of offering the right level of configuration & control capabilities, but not necessarily innate knowledge of the service | 23:00 |
| aveiga | with the exception of being able to manipulate neutron for connecting to external netionworks in a custom fash | 23:00 |
| aveiga | adrian-hoban__: we need at least a little, otherwise you can't properly service chain | 23:00 |
| ijw | The 'keep-your-app-running' element of orchestration definitely includes Murano | 23:00 |
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| sgordon_ | #info defining what NFV orchestration really means in an openstack-specific way continues to be a challenge :) | 23:01 |
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| sgordon_ | ijw, +1 | 23:01 |
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| aveiga | yup | 23:01 |
| jrakerevelant | agree | 23:01 |
| sgordon_ | ok we're at time for today | 23:01 |
| sgordon_ | those of you in the US enjoy your thanksgiving | 23:02 |
| ijw | I think I would at least split the definition into 'internal' and 'external' orchestration, for want of a better word. One provides a cloud API to something that is not itself cloudy (a widget, a server) and one looks after applications | 23:02 |
| sgordon_ | #info "ijw> split the definition into 'internal' and 'external' orchestration, for want of a better word. One provides a cloud API to something that is not itself cloudy (a widget, a server) and one looks after applications" | 23:02 |
| ijw | (via published APIs, generally) | 23:02 |
| sgordon_ | i think that's accurate to the discussion we were having above | 23:02 |
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| sgordon_ | #endmeeting | 23:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 23:03:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/telcowg/2014/telcowg.2014-11-26-22.00.html | 23:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/telcowg/2014/telcowg.2014-11-26-22.00.txt | 23:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/telcowg/2014/telcowg.2014-11-26-22.00.log.html | 23:03 |
| ijw | Did we do stuff? | 23:03 |
| ijw | I think we may have done stuff | 23:03 |
| sgordon_ | i *think* so | 23:03 |
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| sgordon_ | :) | 23:03 |
| jrakerevelant | ijw: i dont know | 23:03 |
| sgordon_ | still the use case contribution is key to everything | 23:03 |
| ijw | Just +1 all my specs and I'll call it a win ;) | 23:03 |
| jrakerevelant | i will try my best | 23:03 |
| sgordon_ | so i will try add some of the guidance we discussed | 23:03 |
| sgordon_ | and send another email calling for contribs | 23:03 |
| aveiga | thanks everyone | 23:03 |
| smazziotta | bye | 23:03 |
| jrakerevelant | thanks | 23:03 |
| adrian-hoban__ | Thanks folks | 23:03 |
| aveiga | I'm off (at a wedding) next week, so see you all in two | 23:04 |
| ijw | cheers | 23:04 |
| amitry | thanks, happy holidays to those who are celebrating | 23:04 |
| ijw | Yeah, and at 6am I'm in bed | 23:04 |
| ijw | (thanks a lot, sgordon_) | 23:04 |
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| adrian-hoban__ | aveiga: Have fun! | 23:04 |
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| jrakerevelant | it 6 am?? | 23:04 |
| ijw | PST, yes | 23:04 |
| jrakerevelant | somewhere in the world | 23:04 |
| ijw | Cos sgordon_ hates me | 23:04 |
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| ijw | I can tell by that and the ninja assassings | 23:04 |
| jrakerevelant | ah next wednesday you mean | 23:04 |
| ijw | yup | 23:05 |
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| jrakerevelant | ijw: are u still working with DT? | 23:05 |
| sgordon_ | all in favor of making the meetings earlier? | 23:05 |
| sgordon_ | :P | 23:05 |
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| ijw | Not as much as I used to, but I do talk to you | 23:05 |
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| ijw | or, them, or however you call it | 23:05 |
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| jrakerevelant | :) | 23:06 |
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