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| njohnston | o/ | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| gmann | o/ | 01:11 |
| gmann | evrardjp: is agenda updated for 6th feb meeting - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 01:14 |
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| zaneb | interesting, apparently locks in etcd don't work: http://jepsen.io/analyses/etcd-3.4.3#locks-arent-real | 03:08 |
| zaneb | or rather, they do work, but only if you use them to implement database locking not unidentical to what you would do in mysql anyway | 03:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Update vulnerability:managed policy https://review.opendev.org/678426 | 04:47 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Propose a new goal to migrate all legacy zuul jobs https://review.opendev.org/691278 | 04:50 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add watcher dashboard charm repository https://review.opendev.org/703080 | 05:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add Multi-Arch repo under governance https://review.opendev.org/703326 | 05:00 |
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| evrardjp | zaneb : Interesting | 06:51 |
| evrardjp | gmann : I am back from conference | 06:52 |
| evrardjp | and from house move... | 06:53 |
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| evrardjp | it seems we didn't send a ML freeze of the topics | 07:06 |
| evrardjp | the wiki is up to date though | 07:07 |
| evrardjp | (I maintain those during the meetings themselves, so it should be good) | 07:07 |
| evrardjp | We've got so many topics nowadays to report, I wonder if we shouldn't do two meetings? | 07:09 |
| evrardjp | who would be okay to have a meeting this week and next week? | 07:09 |
| evrardjp | (we would keep office hours for convos, like we used to do, it seems to work) | 07:09 |
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| ricolin | evrardjp, I'm working on the ML freeze topic now actually, is there a specific freeze timeline? | 07:12 |
| evrardjp | technically one week before the meeting :p | 07:15 |
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| ricolin | evrardjp, we should totally update https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/charter.html#meeting | 07:17 |
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| ricolin | evrardjp, what you mean by `charter change` in agenda? | 07:26 |
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| evrardjp | ricolin: oh indeed, it's not written that we need to do it a week in advance. I thought it was good courtesy | 07:57 |
| evrardjp | We should send that as soon as possible | 07:57 |
| evrardjp | wow I was not logged in on gerrit... I have definitely been away for a good week. | 07:58 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: the charter change merged. The report should mention it | 07:59 |
| evrardjp | (https://review.opendev.org/#/c/699277/ ) | 07:59 |
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| ricolin | evrardjp, sended | 08:07 |
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| evrardjp | thanks, I am catching up emails quick, then resume my tc work | 08:23 |
| evrardjp | "quick" -> Not sure how I managed to have 600 emails in a week, but yeah. | 08:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: neutron-lbaas was retired in Ussuri https://review.opendev.org/705780 | 10:10 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 12:11 |
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| gmann | o/ | 12:45 |
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| smcginnis | I'll say it one more time and then try even harder to stay quiet about the TC meetings, but if there seems to be a need to add a second meeting, I think that's a big sign that that has absolutely failed and the office hours, general channel discussions, and making sure discussions move to the mailing list have failed. | 13:36 |
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| fungi | especially moving discussions to the mailing list | 13:40 |
| fungi | that was the entire reason we had previously gotten rid of irc meetings for the tc was to force important conversations onto the ml where the rest of the community could follow along and participate | 13:42 |
| fungi | (well, that and to break ourselves of the habit of not reviewing governance changes until they were raised in the meeting) | 13:43 |
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| ttx | smcginnis: please don't stay quiet | 14:02 |
| smcginnis | 🤫 | 14:02 |
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| ttx | Unrelated, but I encourage everyone here to watch https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/nextgencontributors/ about choosing communication channels | 14:04 |
| smcginnis | That was a good one. | 14:05 |
| ttx | In particular I'm interested in the quadrant of tools, and the recent move of Mozilla from IRC to Riot/matrix | 14:08 |
| smcginnis | Matrix seems to have made some great progress since I tried it last. | 14:08 |
| ttx | https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620 | 14:08 |
| smcginnis | I think we should really consider that as an option for our community. | 14:08 |
| tosky | thanks to the bridge already in place (with some issues from time to time, but still), it could be a smooth migration | 14:09 |
| * smcginnis still loves IRC but recognizes there are a lot of folks that do not | 14:10 | |
| fungi | yeah, we talked briefly with one of the matrix folks at fosdem and it sounds like their infrastructure has seen significant improvements over the past couple of years | 14:11 |
| ttx | At this point we really need to reduce engagement friction | 14:11 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 14:11 |
| fungi | having our channels bridged to matrix sounds fine to me, since it wouldn't prevent those of us who want to continue using irc from doing so | 14:11 |
| ttx | Last I looked (2018) it was clearly not up to the task | 14:11 |
| ttx | But if Moz can haz it in Dec 2019, we probably can | 14:12 |
| njohnston | +1 for reducing engagement friction - if we can "meet people where they are" that helps on so many levels | 14:12 |
| fungi | well, that's not meeting people "where they are" so much as providing them with something less frightening | 14:13 |
| njohnston | But if they're happier with some other messaging mechanism that can also bridge with matrix, like slack, then that can happen transparently, right? | 14:14 |
| fungi | they'd still in many cases be coming to free and open systems where we are to engage with us (so f/loss like matrix fits the bill) | 14:14 |
| ttx | Apparently one big factor in favor of matrix for Moz was the integrated CoC violation reporting/enforcement tooling | 14:15 |
| smcginnis | Certainly a better option than slack. | 14:15 |
| fungi | i won't endorse proprietary tools like slack, but if other people who aren't concerned by the proliferation of closed software in our contributor relationships want to build and maintain something to do that i won't stop them | 14:15 |
| njohnston | smcginnis: amen | 14:15 |
| fungi | i mean, there are already slack-irc bridges maintained by some openstack project teams so they can communicate readily with people who prefer closed tools | 14:16 |
| gmann | ttx: thank for sharing. i like IRC but good to learn about better tooling if really better. | 14:21 |
| ttx | woo. Ability to embed an etherpad in a chat room is kinda neat | 14:24 |
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| clarkb | fungi: all freenode channels are bridged already | 14:45 |
| clarkb | with matrix I mean | 14:46 |
| openstackgerrit | Clark Boylan proposed openstack/governance master: Split OpenDev out of OpenStack Infra https://review.opendev.org/703134 | 14:59 |
| fungi | clarkb: oh, convenient, so there's not actually anything we need to do other than just publicize that fact? | 15:02 |
| fungi | i guess it's just hooked in as an irc server from freenode's perspective | 15:02 |
| fungi | so gets full replication back and forth | 15:03 |
| clarkb | yes, the main matrix network runs a freenode bridge | 15:03 |
| clarkb | I don't think that gives freenode access to matrix channel | 15:03 |
| clarkb | but the other way around should work | 15:03 |
| tosky | you can create official rooms on matrix.org (so with a nicer name) and connect them to the bridge-generated freenode rooms | 15:03 |
| tosky | and also you may want to investigate the creation of a separate matrix server | 15:03 |
| tosky | as the KDE community did (with the help of matrix.org people) | 15:03 |
| tosky | to not overload the main instance | 15:04 |
| tosky | (see https://dot.kde.org/2019/02/20/kde-adding-matrix-its-im-framework ) | 15:04 |
| fungi | i guess it depends on how many matrix users we end up with | 15:05 |
| smcginnis | I thought this talk was interesting if anyone is curious about how the bridging works - https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/matrix_bridge/ | 15:08 |
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| zaneb | ah, I'd been waiting for Mozilla to make a decision on that. glad they chose matrix | 16:44 |
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| zaneb | one of the reasons they were ditching irc though was the spam problem... I don't think just bridging freenode channels to matrix can solve that | 16:45 |
| zaneb | although the spam seems to be under control at the moment (possibly at the expense of making it even harder for new people to join) | 16:45 |
| smcginnis | It's that last bit that would make adding/moving-to matrix attractive to me. | 16:52 |
| smcginnis | IRC itself is simple. | 16:52 |
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| smcginnis | All the protections we now have in place to prevent that spam is making it difficult for new people to jump in. | 16:52 |
| smcginnis | There's a not insignificant amount of effort required to start using our IRC channels now that could likley turn away casual contributors. | 16:53 |
| zaneb | I agree | 16:53 |
| zaneb | is bridging a good starting point, or should we just start discussing picking up and moving? | 16:54 |
| njohnston | bridging means we don't have to do everything all at once, where everything includes the multiple bots, log publishing to eavesdrop, etc. | 16:55 |
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| smcginnis | Bots and documentation probably being the biggest issue from a wholesale move. | 16:56 |
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| clarkb | some verification that configuring a matrix user and client is simpler than freenode account andirc client might also be worthwhile | 17:00 |
| clarkb | does matrix control spam in ways that impact users less? | 17:01 |
| clarkb | (I dont know but it is possible we would need similar setups there as well) | 17:01 |
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| clarkb | really its "create user, join as authenticated user" | 17:01 |
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| smcginnis | I believe it's that last statement. Create a matrix user, then authenticate. | 17:06 |
| clarkb | looks like a lot of their controls rely on user accounts as well, but the feature set is richer for moderation and client control of what they see | 17:06 |
| clarkb | so I dont think this necessarily makes it easier for people but you may get more for the cost | 17:07 |
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| zaneb | just as a data point I believe it took me approximately 7 years before I configured my irc client to log in the 'proper' way. even longer to get a cloak, from memory | 17:12 |
| clarkb | right but the comparison is current irc setup to matrix and I think both require you to configure an accou t | 17:14 |
| clarkb | but the matrix account has more control over what they see and moderators have richer tools too | 17:14 |
| zaneb | I guarantee that the UX for doing so on matrix is superior to irc | 17:14 |
| clarkb | (you can apparently ask servers to filter for you in matrix rather than using client side rules with irc) | 17:15 |
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| fungi | well, the ux for doing so on irc is complicated by the fact that irc is not a service, it's a protocol which is implemented by a multitude of clients and servers with a mix of extensions only implemented by some combinations of the two | 18:17 |
| fungi | so the ux for irc depends on the server you're connecting to as well as your choice of client | 18:18 |
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| fungi | the ux for matrix is presumably superior because they limit the number of different server-side implementations (plus much less history there pushing different server implementations to invent extensions to solve problems not solved by the protocol) as well as a limited number of client choices | 18:19 |
| fungi | as we've also demonstrated with the design of openstack, choice breeds complexity | 18:20 |
| fungi | newspapers are similarly complicated by the fact that there are so many to choose from and so many ways you could obtain one. it would be far simpler if the world could agree on one newspaper and one way of obtaining it | 18:23 |
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| fungi | so lack of choice provides simplicity, but isn't necessarily a good trade-off | 18:24 |
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| gmann | tc-members: started the V cycle goals ideas- http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-February/012396.html | 18:40 |
| gmann | feel free to add your name on etherpad for driving the V cycle goals. I am looking for one more member to help on this. https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-v-series-goals | 18:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam Mann proposed openstack/governance master: Select 'Switch legacy Zuul jobs to native' goal for Victoria https://review.opendev.org/706086 | 19:01 |
| gmann | tc-members: first goal to select for V cycle is ready to vote ^^ | 19:02 |
| gmann | tosky: need your +1 too for confirmation as Champion. ^^ | 19:02 |
| tosky | oh | 19:05 |
| tosky | ok | 19:05 |
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