Thursday, 2020-02-06

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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add charm-interface-keystone-notifications project
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evrardjpmeeting soon!13:53
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ricolinmeeting time:)14:00
ricolin#startmeeting tc14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb  6 14:00:18 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ricolin. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'14:00
ricolin#topic rollcall14:00
*** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)"14:00
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ricolintc-members meeting time:)14:01
evrardjpthanks ricolin for hosting this time!14:01
ricolinmnaser, bonsoir:)14:02
evrardjpso much french mastery14:02
ricolinlooks like we have a quorum:)14:02
ricolin#topic Report on large scale sig14:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on large scale sig (Meeting topic: tc)"14:02
ricolinttx how's everything there:)14:03
ttxThings are good. Slow progress. We can talk more about the oslo.metric spec when we cover that topic14:03
ricolinevrardjp, I'm not going to Paris without learning some:)14:03
ttxNot sure there is value in keeping it forever on the meeting agenda14:03
ttxI post updates on the ML for those interested14:04
ricolinnext opendev event in Vancouver contains track `Large-scale Usage of Open Source Infrastructure Software (scale pain points, multi-location, CI/CD)`, is there any plan from  large scale sig?14:04
ttxYes, there should be a in-person large scale SIG happening14:04
ricolinagree with you, that SIG is all on track14:04
* jroll neglected to put this one on his calendar, apologies14:05
ttxwe are trying to set reasonable expectations and steady albeit slow progress achieving those14:05
ttxnext topic!14:05
ricolinttx I wonder how can we help to attract more new joiner to the SIG14:05
ttxricolin: I'm pitching it to the user companies I talk to14:06
* ricolin think PTG is not the best place IMO14:06
ricolinttx great idea to approach user companies, maybe we should added it to SIG guideline:)14:07
ricolinAnyway that's something else, move on:)14:07
ricolin#topic Report on tc/uc merge14:07
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on tc/uc merge (Meeting topic: tc)"14:07
ricolinttx, how's that going:)14:08
ttxI started to look into the corresponding bylaws changes14:08
ttxIt's not very fun14:08
ttxSo I'm all in the "is this really worth it" doubt phase14:08
ttxShall have something to present for next meeting14:08
gmannother option is to distribute the UC tasks among SIG, TC and dismiss UC. if that avoid by-law things easy14:09
ttxBasically it's a costly move, fora psyops effects14:09
evrardjpthe gif game is strong14:09
ricolin#action ttx report on tc/uc merge next meeting14:09
evrardjpagreed with ttx14:09
ttxgmann: yes. The costly change is really to rename the TC14:09
ttxBut it's the alternative is basically to disband the UC and absorb its tasks into SIGs -- probably not a decision for us (TC) to make14:10
ttxerr.. But the...14:10
evrardjpnjohnston: :)14:10
ttxSo yeah, more on taht later14:11
evrardjpthanks for the report!14:11
gmannttx i think it will be TC as SIG will be under TC only if noo UC. yeah we can discuss later14:11
ricolinttx is that means these need to present to board to grep approval eventually?14:11
* ricolin think rename TC is not a bad idea14:12
ttxI think if the best solution is to disband the UC, it has to come from the UC itself.14:12
jungleboyjNot a bad idea.  Too bad it is hard.14:12
ttxRenaming the TC is very costly from a bylaws perspective, for a mostly psychological effect14:12
ricolinspotz, just like you to be aware of this discussion:)14:12
evrardjpjungleboyj: yup!14:12
ttxBut an important psychological effect ("Ops are welcome here")14:12
jungleboyjttx:  ++14:13
ttxSo yeah, one morning I'm motivated and the next day I'm like "wow, is it really worth it"14:13
evrardjpwell, it's out of our hands right now.14:13
ttxok next topic14:14
evrardjpI think it's noble, and thanks ttx for adressing this from your perspective14:14
ttxwe need to go faster to cover everything14:14
ricolinwe can certainly help to push that14:14
evrardjpttx: +114:14
ricolin#topic report on the post for the analysis of the survey14:14
*** openstack changes topic to "report on the post for the analysis of the survey (Meeting topic: tc)"14:14
ricolinjungleboyj, hey!:)14:14
ricolinjungleboyj already propose a patch for it, but we need tc-members to review it.14:15
jungleboyjSo, I apologize for lack of progress here.  My other job has become nuts.14:15
evrardjpthe question I have, outside the folks needing review, is that there is a blog post or not to write... If there is, it will be hard to track just in the review14:16
jungleboyjricolin: I had an additional comment to address.14:16
evrardjpso it would be good to keep it on the agenda for next time14:16
* asettle stumbles in the front door14:16
jungleboyjFYI, I don't recommend trying to release a product with a Chinese team during a plague.14:16
gmannsending the doc link on ML can be enough but yeah writting blog post is more audience14:16
ttxjungleboyj: sounds like fun14:17
jungleboyjSomething like that.14:17
evrardjpjungleboyj: Not sure plague is the right term.14:17
evrardjpbut I am not english native :p14:17
ttxI bet that would apply to any pandemic14:17
jungleboyjttx: ++14:17
evrardjpit's not a pandemic afaik14:17
ricolin#action jungleboyj report on user survey update next meeting14:18
ttxevrardjp: the media treated it as one for sure14:18
evrardjpbut hey, I will stop being pedantic :)14:18
evrardjpttx: haha yeah14:18
jungleboyjricolin:  Yes, I will.  I will try to get a new patch up in the next couple of days.14:18
ricolinjungleboyj, anything more on this topic in this meeting?14:18
evrardjpttx: it's serious business though.14:18
ricolinjungleboyj, thanks14:18
jungleboyjricolin:  No.  Thanks guys!14:18
ricolinmove on:)14:18
ricolin#topic Report on the convo Telemetry14:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on the convo Telemetry (Meeting topic: tc)"14:18
ricolinFor what I know, the ML discussion stopped at Dec. and there's no meeting for Telemetry since then.14:19
ricolinThere are few works been pushed, like Improve Quota API. No much reviewer and patch activity. I feel like they need help to push through the entire finding solution for Gnocchi thing.14:19
ricolinA moderator will be nice14:20
ricolinLet's all I have for now, I will keep an eye on it14:20
ttxto be fair I'm not sure what we (the TC) can do. Someone has to care enough to put effort in this, effort which the TC can encourage/bless/support, but I'm not sure that benefits from being driven at TC-level14:21
ttxI feel like a sustainable-telemetry pop up team would be more efficient, if someone wanted badly-enough to fix the situation14:22
ricolinttx, agree with you totally, I think to encourage to make the final call will be something TC can help14:22
ricolinwe don't need to be part of that decision14:22
ricolinpop up team +114:23
ricolinzaneb, o/14:23
spotzricolin: catching up14:24
ricolinspotz, thx14:24
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ricolinttx, I will rich out to ptl to see if they're in any status need our help14:24
ricolinmove on14:24
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ricolin#topic Report on multi-arch SIG14:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on multi-arch SIG (Meeting topic: tc)"14:25
ricolinWe have WIP for docs, and CI jobs, doc init structure will sended out this week. Not yet ask others if multi-arch SIG will join Vancouver opendev even.14:25
ricolinSince just get back from CNY, haven't got any chance to update with mnaser and Huawei guy for ARM resource donation yet, hope that's on going:)14:26
mnaserin my case, the hardware is already there and exists in the cloud thats part of openstack-infra14:26
mnaserjust need to upload images with correct properties14:26
ricolinthere's something need to fix in current ARM CI environment, and ianw is working on it14:26
fungialso it turns out that new arm environment isn't reachable from our prior arm environment in mainland china, so we had to relocate the image builder14:27
ricolinmnaser, that's great news, will sync with you out side of meeting:)14:28
evrardjpshould we continue reporting here? I have the impression it's in good hands now, and that people interested can be doing so by reaching the SIG... Correct?14:28
fungisomething something firewalls something14:28
ricolinfungi, that's the issue ianw is working on I assume14:28
fungiricolin: actually he fixed that one14:28
ricolinevrardjp, we can leave it out of TC meeting for sure:)14:28
funginow it's image properties, as mnaser indicated14:28
mnaseroh sorry14:29
ricolinfungi, thanks for the update info.14:29
mnaserim talking about arm hardware inside vexxhost14:29
ricolinAnything else need to discuss here?14:29
fungiwell, there's an issue with setting the right image properties in the new arm cloud too, it's looking like (last i heard anyway)14:29
fungibut i haven't caught up on it yet since yesterday14:30
ricolinfungi, is there any story I can trace this issue?14:30
fungii believe there is but i don't know it off the top of my head14:31
fungicheck in #openstack-infra after the meeting14:31
ricolinfungi, got it14:31
ricolinokay let's move on14:31
ricolin#topic report on infra liaison and static hosting14:31
*** openstack changes topic to "report on infra liaison and static hosting (Meeting topic: tc)"14:31
ricolinmnaser, any update on this?14:31
mnaseri think the dns was updated a few days ago14:31
mnasergiven i was a bit out of things because of some $personal_stuff, ianw and andreas did a lot of the work14:32
mnaserafaik, infra updated dns not long ago for those domains14:32
evrardjpI think we are good indeed, IIRC a comment from fungi during fosdem14:32
mnaser 2020-01-29 20:30:35 UTC and switched CNAMEs to new server14:32
fungii think we're just down to rehoming the tarballs site now14:32
evrardjpI am removing this from the agenda of the meeting, as everything seems to be in good hands14:33
mnaseryeah, so that's mostly wrapped up, tarballs seems to be a different bigger beast that infra is dealing with14:33
evrardjpfrom the agenda of next meeting*14:33
ricolinmove on:)14:33
ricolin#topic report on stable branch policy work14:33
*** openstack changes topic to "report on stable branch policy work (Meeting topic: tc)"14:33
ricolinmnaser, ^^^;)14:33
mnaseryeah, sorry, not pushed up :(14:34
mnaseri'll try to get to it, but nothing has developed on that14:34
evrardjplet's keep it for next time then14:34
ricolinmnaser, I can make a action for this in next meeting:)14:34
mnaserhopefully it'll be gone by then14:34
ricolin#action mnaser to report on stable branch policy work14:35
ricolin#topic report on the oslo metrics project14:35
*** openstack changes topic to "report on the oslo metrics project (Meeting topic: tc)"14:35
ttxThere is a spec proposed14:35
ricolinttx can you post the link:)14:35
ttxPlease have a look if you care about the topic :)14:36
evrardjpwill there need to be a follow up after that? Or will it magically get done?14:36
ttxit's early draft stage and I bet masahito-san would love comments14:36
evrardjp(to know if I can remove this from the topics, I love magic)14:36
evrardjp#action tc-members review
ttxno need to keep it in-TC14:37
ttxpeople interested should join largescale SIG really14:37
evrardjpthat's true14:37
ricolina ML update will be nice:)14:37
ricolinlet's see how the review goes14:38
ricolinmove on14:38
ricolin#topic report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop14:38
*** openstack changes topic to "report on the community goals for U and V, py2 drop (Meeting topic: tc)"14:38
ricolingmann, :)14:38
gmannU cycle community goals: We have 2 goals ready as updated over ML. Both goals are in progress. You can check the status updates on ML14:38
gmannpy2 drop: #link
ttxThanks for the updates on those14:39
gmannContribution goal: #link
ricolingmann, nice job!14:39
gmannV cycle goal: I have started the ML to collect the ideas: #link
gmannthere is etherpad to collect the ideas and then we will start the discussion on individual idea14:40
njohnstonThanks for your hard work on these. The py27 in particular has had some last minute twists.14:40
diablo_rojoThanks for getting the next rounds started already gmann :)14:40
ricolinWe have our first goal propose for V already14:40
evrardjpsorry I didn't get the chance to comment on the ML yet gmann. But thanks for doing so14:40
ricolinthe zuul migrate one14:40
gmannlooking for one more TC member for driving it14:40
mnaserwow YVR again14:40
jungleboyjevrardjp: ++14:40
gmannplease write your name on etherpad if interested14:40
njohnstonI can help drive it14:40
mnasertime is going by :>14:41
gmannPy drop Drama: This is causing lot of issues/complexity than expected14:41
zanebmnaser: next summit is BER again. it's a replay of 201814:41
gmannmaster gate is all ok and if any project still left with py2 jobs which will fail due to oslo and other lib dropping py2 can drop py2 jobs14:41
ricolinnjohnston, you don't mind if I put an action on this?14:41
jungleboyjThankfully at a Venure that is closer to things.14:41
gmannbut stable branch testing till stable/rocky is all bad. I have been fixing those since last weeks or more14:42
gmanncurrent issue fix is in progress: #link
njohnstonricolin: sure14:42
ricolin#action njohnston help with gmann to drive v series goals14:42
ricolinnjohnston, thx:)14:43
gmanni have to fix devstack-gate for legacy ocata job which unblock the pike grenade job and so on.14:43
gmannlet's see if i can bring up the stable gate green again14:43
gmannnjohnston thanks14:43
gmannthat's all from my side. question ?14:43
evrardjpno questions14:43
ricolinnone from me, but this is how I see you now
evrardjpexcept: is there a tc member that can help you? It seems a lot of work for just one person14:44
evrardjpso true14:44
gmannyeah, fixing py is more dynamic issues occur as lib drop py2. but as next week is deadline, we should have all potential failure and then fix them14:45
ricolingot to push the meeting schedule, let's keep the finding volunteer in office hour:)14:45
gmannone more thing: next week which is m-2 is target to finish the py drop from everything except requirement repo14:45
evrardjpricolin: oh yeah I meant that as an asynchronous thing. We can continue ...14:46
gmannand then keep fixing the issue and make everything stable before m-3 or early14:46
gmann+1, we can move next.14:47
ricolingmann, indeed important message to record in meeting, I think we need to figure out how can we help you with it14:47
njohnstongmann: if you have a sub task that you want to carve off the rest I can try to help lighten the load14:47
ricolinnjohnston, :)14:47
ricolin#topic report on release naming14:47
*** openstack changes topic to "report on release naming (Meeting topic: tc)"14:47
gmannnjohnston great, i will post you for that. thanks14:47
ricolinAnyone can update the W progress?14:48
ttxnaming still open until tomorrow14:48
njohnstonlots of great names14:48
zanebthere's a good list14:48
ricolinzaneb, it is14:48
evrardjpI haven't received a member that asked me to vote for x or y yet.14:48
jungleboyjThat is good to hear.14:48
evrardjpI mean W1 or W214:49
ttxmost people missed that memo (that they would not vote)14:49
jungleboyjevrardjp:  ++14:49
ricolindefinitely need to discuss this in our next office hour or meeting14:49
evrardjpttx: well it was sent on the ML, so...14:49
ricolin#action mugsie help to report on W release naming14:50
evrardjplet's just continue our things, haters are gonna hate anyway14:50
ricolinmove on14:50
ricolin#topic report on the ideas repo14:50
*** openstack changes topic to "report on the ideas repo (Meeting topic: tc)"14:50
ricolinevrardjp, how's crazy idea goes:)14:50
* gmann wondering how many request to ask for name support will be :)14:50
jungleboyjI hadn't seen this list.  Looks good.14:50
evrardjpin progress. will report on the ml when ready14:50
evrardjpcurrently at static hosting changes14:51
ricolin#action evrardjp report on ideas repo on ML14:51
ricolin#topic report on charter change14:52
*** openstack changes topic to "report on charter change (Meeting topic: tc)"14:52
ricolinevrardjp, ^^^14:52
evrardjpI think we can remove this from the action items14:52
evrardjpEverything is ready for the next elections afaik.14:52
evrardjpremoving it now!14:53
ricolinokay, that's good news:)14:53
ricolinmove on14:53
ricolin#topic Report on whether SIG guidelines worked14:53
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on whether SIG guidelines worked (Meeting topic: tc)"14:53
ricolinI actually got not much to update for this, I use it to settup Multi-Arch SIG and it works for me. Haven't got feedback from other SIGs but mostly is because this is more needed for new SIGs.14:53
ricolinIMO no need to keep this in TC meeting agenda anymore14:53
ricolinanyway, moving forward:)14:54
ricolin#topic volunteers to represent OpenStack at the OpenDev advisory board14:54
*** openstack changes topic to "volunteers to represent OpenStack at the OpenDev advisory board (Meeting topic: tc)"14:54
evrardjpyeah, so we received a call on the ML from clarkb14:54
fungiwe basically need one volunteer to be the openstack liaison on the advisory board for the opendev collaboratory14:55
evrardjpI am fine with being that liaison for the time of my chairing14:55
zanebdoes it have to be a TC member or just somebody we nominate?14:55
ricolinbetter from one of member not getting re-election this time14:55
fungiopenstack's technical governing body can pick anyone they please14:55
ttxcan be anyone really14:55
* zaneb nominates fungi14:56
ttxI'd pick Andreas personally :)14:56
evrardjpInfrastructure providers are also on the advisory board too, so we don't need to nominate mnaser :p14:56
fungizaneb: ideally not a sysadmin for the collaboratory, but i don't think we discussed whether that would cause a problem14:56
zanebwe should probably put out a wider call for volunteers14:56
ttxyes ML thread is the right way14:57
mnaserya just yell at me14:57
fungiso it raises a very good point anyway14:57
gmanntimecheck: 3 min left14:57
ricolingmann, thx14:57
ricolinI assume we can keep this discussion in office hour to find our best candidate14:58
ricolinmove on14:58
ricolin#topic Report on the OSF board initiatives14:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Report on the OSF board initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)"14:58
evrardjpjust ML will be good enough :)14:58
evrardjpyeah so... it's been a while we didn't report on what's going on in the board. Well basically there are initiatives started to get more contributors, with the help of mentoring and universities, IIRC.14:59
evrardjpIf a board member or previous board member could say a few words, that would be awesome.14:59
ricolinAlso the COA is back on again15:00
evrardjpI had prepared this better, but my notes are in a box in my new home, sorry.15:00
smcginnisThere are some universities in Sweden that would like to include some real world hands on open source development.15:00
gmann+1. i think getting some result on that would be nice or we find some other way15:00
smcginnisWe need to identify some good things they could work on over a few weeks time during the semester.15:00
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  ++15:00
smcginnisildikov and diablo_rojo have sent a few things out to the ML, but not sure if that's been widely seen/noticed.15:01
evrardjpsmcginnis: ok should we start ML thread, or take from our pool of community goals?15:01
gmannsmcginnisthat is for few weeks duration or some long term maintainer even with less bandwidth15:01
smcginnisSeems like we need a better way to build up a pipeline of things, but I don't have any good ideas.15:01
evrardjpI see15:01
jungleboyjsmcginnis:  I had pointed rosmaita at it but didn't see further action.15:01
njohnstonI believe the Octavia team may be working with that group of Swedish students (or possiblky another pool of Swedes).  I heard about that from johnsom.15:01
smcginnisgmann: The idea would be that it's just for a few weeks, but with the hope that it would get at least a few of them interested in continuing after the class is over.15:02
smcginnisnjohnston: Oh, great!15:02
evrardjpI guess in the meantime, the investment opportunities and the community goals are the first targets...15:02
johnsomNorth Dakota State University15:02
diablo_rojonjohnston, those or NDSU students15:02
smcginnisGetting their help on community goal completion could be a good way to have a discrete item of work for them to focus on.15:02
gmannevrardjp true but that need longer time commitment from contributors15:03
njohnstonjohnsom: Ah, well North Dakota is basically half of Swedish descent anyway :-)15:03
ricolinlike zuul v3 migrate?:)15:03
diablo_rojoI'm working with johnsom mentoring those NDSU students (though johnsom is doing most of the work)15:03
gmannanyways, we can discuss on list to work on in office hour15:03
evrardjpgmann: everything is :) I just hope that having something that matter a lot gives an incentive to come back :D15:03
zanebevrardjp: that reminds me, we need to roll over the 2019 investment ops to 202015:03
evrardjpzaneb: correct15:03
zanebare there any we need to prune?15:03
evrardjptechnically they are all pruned, until someone propose it back to 202015:04
zanebare there any we need to not roll over?15:04
diablo_rojoevrardjp, I think we need smaller pieces of work than the investment opportunities.15:04
evrardjpzaneb: the way it is built was to ensure pruning.15:04
gmannwe can propose one by one and see which one we can drop15:04
johnsomYeah, we are having them add actual features to Octavia and following through with tests, CLI, SDK, and dashboard updates. It's not just "grunt" work, lol15:04
evrardjpSo my understanding is that the community has no business opportunities for 2020 as of today.15:04
njohnstonI think the Designate opportunity at a minimum should roll over15:05
ricolinwe should move to our last topic as we already running out of time, can we move this to office hour and ML too15:05
gmannneed action item for that15:05
ricolingmann, got it15:05
ricolinmove on first15:05
ricolin#topic Dropping side projects: using golden signals15:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Dropping side projects: using golden signals (Meeting topic: tc)"15:06
gmannthat is TC assignment at start of every year15:06
ttxSo we can probably discuss this in open discussion and close the meeting first15:06
evrardjpgmann: agreed. I will tackle this.15:06
ricolincan anyone help me to comes out with a nice action itemfor previous one?:)15:06
ttxMy point is that it's difficult to close a project, because every time we find something unmaintained that almost nobody uses, someone volunteers to keep it up15:07
evrardjpbecause I don't believe we have considerably improved the community since 2019 :p15:07
ricolinlosing words here:)15:07
ttxThat volunteer should be encouraged to step up in more ... positive areas15:07
ttxso how do we look at good candidates for pruning15:07
ttxContribution stats are not so great15:08
ttxsince a project can be slow and totally maintained and useful and operational15:08
ttxI think we need to look at a combination of factors15:08
evrardjpthey are a good signal of maintainance though15:08
evrardjpgates break regularily, so that + no contribution trigger a view of health15:08
ttxStarting with a golden signal -- no PTL nomination, no goal completion with no communication to the champion etc15:08
fungimissed releases15:09
ttxthen if that "abandoned" project also has no user and no dependency...15:09
ricolin#action roll over the 2019 investment ops to 202015:09
evrardjpreduction of the amount of core reviewers is also a _warning_ sign (not a big red sign)15:09
ttxIt becomes a very good candidate for being dropped from the release and the projectteams15:09
evrardjpttx: agreed15:10
gmannwe can start tag for each project like SIG and guidlines to move state like mentioned above15:10
ricolinI'm gonna end the meeting so we can keep this discussion going15:10
evrardjpricolin: yeah sorry we mixed the topics at the end15:10
ttxWe have a good list from gmann in
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | | channel logs"15:10
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb  6 15:10:23 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:10
openstackMinutes (text):
ttxI quote:15:10
ttx"The OpenStack services have not merged the py2 drop patches:15:10
ttxNOTE: This was supposed to be completed by milestone-1 (Dec 13th, 19).15:10
gmann thanks ricolin for chair15:10
evrardjpthanks ricolin!15:10
ttx* Adjutant15:10
ttx* ec2-api15:10
ttx* Karbor15:10
ttx* Masakari15:10
ttx* Qinling15:10
ricolingmann evrardjp , anytime15:10
ttx* Tricircle15:10
gmannttx true, that is good list15:11
gmannttx except ec2-api is merged now15:11
ttxUnless those have communicated one way or another with the champion (and I doubt they did) they constitute a good golden signal15:11
evrardjpttx: instead of targetting a few projects right now, should we use this to list the golden signals, and make it part of governance?15:11
ttxsure, I can propose something about "how we deprecate projects"15:12
diablo_rojothanks for chairing ricolin :)15:12
gmannyeah that will be good and we can define the criteria for those list15:12
evrardjpttx: that sounds good. I think that's very important to start doing this15:12
gmannand give one cycle deprecation phase if red signal bring up the maintainer.15:13
ttxok will do15:13
zanebttx: fyi I had never heard of the term golden signal, which made this whole discussion pretty nonsensical until I looked it up15:13
evrardjpI think we need a good list of signals that can help us evaluate projects15:13
ttxThanks all15:13
gmannttx can we mark such project (in future after you define the criteria) in openstack map with RED color ? or it will be bad signal for openstack health ?15:14
evrardjpzaneb: oh yeah I assumed something maybe it's not the right assumption15:14
ricolindiablo_rojo, :)15:14
zaneb for anyone else who was lost15:14
evrardjpduckduckgo made me land there too15:14
njohnstonevrardjp: Would it make sense to formulate guidelines at the same time as we check on these projects - encountering the real situations these projects are in may help us be more informed as we suggest rules15:15
evrardjpnjohnston: yes. I think I added that in the agenda of the next meeting already15:16
gmannnjohnstoni added your name for V cycle goal driving things -
njohnstonevrardjp: thanks15:16
njohnstongmann: Thanks!15:16
gmannnjohnston we will discuss on planning and how we can collect more ideas next week.15:17
zanebevrardjp: ah, a fellow DDG user :) a lot of the other links are to some crook's get-rich-quick scheme. I checked Google and it surfaces the Google SRE book first, which I'm sure is a happy coincidence for them15:17
* jungleboyj is glad I am not the only one who didn't know what a Golden Signal was.15:17
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evrardjpzaneb: :D15:19
* gmann going back to py2 drop world. :(15:19
evrardjpjungleboyj: yeah, better not confuse signal and shower.15:19
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evrardjpcorrect. Using the latter would be inappropriate.15:20
smcginnisOh boy.15:20
evrardjpI don't want to open any link right now.15:21
jungleboyjHe he.15:21
jrollnot to keep on the topic, but I feel obligated to mention googling "golden shower" is not going to be safe for work, for anyone that doesn't know what it means15:22
jungleboyjjroll: :-)15:23
evrardjpjroll: that's what I meant with my comment above. Thanks for clarifying.15:24
njohnstongolden signals + waterfall development =
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njohnstonanything else left on the docket to revisit?15:26
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njohnstonGreat, thanks!15:31
zanebinvestment oppos for 2020?15:31
ttxzaneb: sorry, was referring to golden signals for monitoring, from Google SRE book:
zanebyeah, I worked it out15:33
zaneband then things quickly went downhill15:33
ttxyes, there is no escape from there15:33
* jungleboyj is proud that I wasn't the one that sent it downhill.15:34
zanebbut anyway, we shouldn't just use that term without explanation because it seems a lot of people are as clueless as I was15:34
ttxzaneb: yes it's a good point15:34
zanebjungleboyj: high five o/15:35
ttxMy point was to discuss more generally how we remove projects, and propose the signals approach15:35
ttxbut then there was no real time left15:35
spotzricolin: I forwarded the logs to the UC members to read15:36
zanebit's hard15:36
evrardjpzaneb: there is nothing to say in both cases, just that ppl should work on this, by proposing patches and reviewing.15:36
evrardjpI have taken the action item for investment opportunities15:37
zanebwe don't require projects to be a cross-company collaboration to join, so it's difficult to kick them out just because they are not15:37
evrardjpzaneb: would you want to do it from now on?15:37
evrardjpit sounds very hard and not intrusive15:37
zaneband if failing to meet the community goals was the criterion then Glance would have been out by Queens15:38
evrardjpif it's the reduction of cores, I guess most of the projects can be out.15:39
evrardjpthat proves the problem we have don't we?15:39
ttxzaneb: as I said, you can't remove a thing that has reverse dependencies. In that case teh signal should trigger a call for help instead of a suggestion for removal15:39
gmannnot meet the goals but it should be no action on goals. if projects say invalid goal or will not work on that goal for xyz reason then it is ok.15:40
ttxThe signal is just the start of the process, not the criterion15:40
zanebgmann: I stand by my comment about Glance in light of what you just said ;)15:40
ttxWe traditionally used the lack of activity as the "tell" that something was bad. I think that's a very bad "tell".15:41
zanebI agree about that15:41
ttxAs years of trying to remove ec2api has shown15:41
ttx'time to review' would be a better metric probably. but I actually think incidents (missing releases, PTl elections, goals) are better "tells"15:42
ttxAnd the trick is that if we say "no volunteer for PTL, shoudl we just remove this project?" some good soul will volunteer to save it, while the best thing for the community might have been to let it die, if it has no user and nothing depends on it15:43
njohnstonSo the Neutron community is about to kick neutron-fwaas out of the stadium.  The process we followed was to look at low contribution/review metrics and inability to meet community goals, followed by talking to all the cores and see that zero were able/willing to work on the project, followed by "looking for a new owner" emails.15:44
njohnstonSince nobody has volunteered to own it, it's out.15:44
njohnston(or will be in a week or so when we hit U-2)15:44
ttxnjohnston: I prefer asking "is anyone using this and willing to put the effort to help" rather than "new owner" but yes, that's the spirit15:45
zanebthat's a good process, but ttx's point is that when we do that to a whole project, somebody *always* volunteers15:45
spotzttx If there are no dependencies couldn't you just say because there is no candidate we are reetiring xyz?15:45
evrardjpand it's the problem15:45
zaneband then we're ~always back in the same situation 6 months later15:45
njohnstonOr I should say, we are starting the process of kicking it out: marking it deprecated, then removing in the next cycle.  (sorry to be glib)15:45
ttxzaneb: and frankly it would be better to convince those good souls that there are other areas in need of more urgent help and where their impact will be more noticed15:46
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ttxIt's just that we don;t say that15:46
evrardjpzaneb: I would like us to arrive to a point we can even stop still active projects, because it would help on our focus15:46
ttxWe say "OMG this has no PTL, are wer going to be forced to remove it?"15:46
zanebttx: I don't think they're doing it to be 'good souls', I think they're people who were using it and don't want it to die15:46
evrardjpI agree with zaneb15:46
ttxzaneb: well... in some cases, clearly no15:46
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evrardjpthough there are some good cases15:47
evrardjpgood souls cases*15:47
zanebsuch as?15:47
ttxLike RongZhu has been volunteering to save a bunch15:47
* evrardjp opens the MLs threads15:47
ttxjust a sec, collecting ecamples15:48
ttx(Murano, Solum, Telemetry)15:48
ttxTrinh Nguyen saving Searchlight is another good example of good soul volunteering15:49
ttxand IIRC he had saved Telemetry as well before15:50
ttx(I may be confused tho)15:50
zanebplenty of people are using Telemetry, even though it is short on maintainers15:50
ttxor was it Trove15:51
zanebI do find it hard to believe that anyone anywhere has ever used Solum, or is still using Murano15:51
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ttxzaneb: right, precisely my point. Maybe RongZhu is, but I suspect he just volunteered because we asked15:51
ttxsinking energy into a dead end15:52
gmannI doubt on Searchlight working state (integration with openstack projects ) as i tried to add its first integrated test job and it was failing for many issues while doing IPv6 job for it.15:52
ttxThe only thing I managed to actively kill was the AppCatalog, because it was an embarassment. For everything else, I backed out after a good soul explained to me they would work more on it/15:54
evrardjpall of this is great input, is it enough to start writing something in governance?15:54
ttxI can draft something, unless someone really wants it15:54
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toskydiablo_rojo: question about - how much can each project  tune the generated CONTRIBUTING.rst file?16:37
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openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/ideas master: Adding first jobs for ideas repo
jrolltosky: looking at the template, there isn't much there. I'd think projects are expected to tune that file16:56
diablo_rojotosky, im fine with adding amending as much as you want. The template was just a bare minimum/starting point16:56
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zanebtosky: not that it's not actually the CONTRIBUTING.rst file that is the template, it's doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst16:59
toskydiablo_rojo, jroll : thanks; Sahara has already a CONTRIBUTING.rst file which contains most of the details, but some of them may be added to the new one17:00
zanebCONTRIBUTING.rst should not be changed.  doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst should be customised for each project based on the template AIUI17:00
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toskythanks, I read the goal incorrectly then17:01
zanebtosky: no, the goal text needs to be updated based on what happened on the review
zanebdiablo_rojo__: ^17:02
jrollzaneb: aha, good catch17:03
toskyuhm, ok; I guess than the content of the standalone CONTRIBUTING.rst file could be then replaced with a link to the documentation17:04
toskyto avoid duplication17:04
tosky(namely this one )17:05
zanebno it can't, because CONTRIBUTING.rst is the thing that GitHub sticks in your face when you open a pull request. so it's important that the content be 90% DO NOT OPEN A PULL REQUEST17:07
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zanebit should have a link to the docs though17:08
zanebwe should update the cookiecutter template to do that17:08
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gmannyeah, CONTRIBUTING.rst at top level needs to tell about 1. NO PR 2. how we contribute in openstack and then link to doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst for detail about 'what all you can contribute in this repo'17:15
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gmanndiablo_rojo__ along with updating it clearly in goal doc, it will be good if we can merge this for one repo and then provide that as example.17:20
toskyzaneb: sure, it can contain "DO NOT OPEN A PULL REQUEST" and then link to the proper documentation for all the other details17:31
toskygmann: part of 2. is already covered by the template17:31
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gmannit can still have a one line saying "OpenStack use Gerrit" and then link to template which has detail text on workflow of contribution as general and project wise info.17:44
fungiit's also possible to have doc/source/contributor/contributing.rst do a ".. include:: ../../CONTRIBUTING.rst"18:09
fungithat way your CONTRIBUTING.rst is still easily spotted when someone browses the repo, but it also gets incorporated verbatim into your built documentation without any duplication of source material18:10
fungii guess it would be ../../../CONTRIBUTING.rst in that include18:10
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gmann+1. that way we can cover users of both files without duplication18:20
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