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| zaneb | fungi: bwahahahaha | 00:43 |
|---|---|---|
| zaneb | fungi: reminds me of the AWS recruiting emails. "come work for us so you can work on open source technologies. like, um, iOS." | 00:44 |
| fungi | yup ;) | 00:44 |
| fungi | headline could just as well have been "why google believes in santa claus" | 00:46 |
| fungi | #startmeeting tc | 01:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jul 4 01:00:01 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 01:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 01:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 01:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 01:00 |
| fungi | #topic Office Hour | 01:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Office Hour (Meeting topic: tc)" | 01:00 | |
| fungi | tc-members and community at large: now is the when we say things | 01:00 |
| fungi | or more often we don't | 01:00 |
| fungi | your choice, i don't judge | 01:00 |
| zaneb | coincidentally I am here | 01:00 |
| TheJulia | The time window doesn't seem ideal for regular discussion | 01:01 |
| zaneb | after an unscheduled trip to the doctor | 01:01 |
| TheJulia | zaneb: hope everything is okay | 01:01 |
| fungi | eek | 01:01 |
| zaneb | pro tip: if you drop a chef's knife, don't try to catch it | 01:01 |
| TheJulia | owie | 01:01 |
| fungi | committing that one to memory | 01:01 |
| zaneb | (not me, my wife) | 01:01 |
| fungi | hope all's well | 01:02 |
| zaneb | yeah, all good. just a few stitches | 01:03 |
| zaneb | looks like cdent is getting his wish for that discussion thread to blow up | 01:09 |
| zaneb | I've spent all day working on an epic reply and now there are like 4 new messages that I'm sure will all warrant similar discussion :) | 01:10 |
| fungi | i made and then deleted two starts at a straw man for "abolishing the project walls" | 01:12 |
| zaneb | I'd be interested to hear from Nova/Cinder/Neutron folks what they think about the nodelet idea | 01:19 |
| zaneb | I'm definitely stealing that name from ttx | 01:19 |
| zaneb | obviously they're gonna hate it, but I want to know what are the things that'd make it difficult specifically | 01:20 |
| fungi | heh | 01:25 |
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| notmyname | fungi: abolishing project walls. like just one big ol' code repo for everything? we all just check it out and go to town wherever we need improvements made? | 02:01 |
| fungi | notmyname: sounds great, right? ;) | 02:02 |
| zaneb | notmyname: that's why I've been trying to steer it more in the direction of 'abolish walls between projects *on the compute node*' | 02:03 |
| fungi | kept heading toward reductio ad absurdum | 02:03 |
| zaneb | I think the idea is more to stop people from installing OpenStack piecemeal (and thus denying critical mass to a bunch of important bits) | 02:04 |
| notmyname | what are the walls that need abolishing? code repos? gerrit reviewers? irc channels? | 02:04 |
| notmyname | ah. so back to the co-installability debate | 02:04 |
| fungi | "abolishing project walls" was a specific phrase in kfox1111's recommendations | 02:04 |
| fungi | it initially came without much context | 02:04 |
| zaneb | I don't actually think this is the way forward in general - there are actually some benefits to separate projects as far as the control plane is concerned - but I do get kfox1111's point | 02:05 |
| fungi | yeah, i had assumed originally that he meant socially (get rid of separate teams, no more ptls, one flat megagroup of core reviewers across all the code, et cetera) | 02:06 |
| fungi | so that's our hour done (and some change). thanks all! | 02:09 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 02:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 02:09 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jul 4 02:09:28 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 02:09 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-04-01.00.html | 02:09 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-04-01.00.txt | 02:09 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-04-01.00.log.html | 02:09 |
| fungi | and for those in the states, don't forget to put cheetos and pop out for captain america before bed so he'll leave illegal fireworks under your flag while you sleep! | 02:09 |
| zaneb | lol | 02:09 |
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| mnaser | Early morning hello | 07:58 |
| * cmurphy hands mnaser some coffee | 07:59 | |
| mnaser | cmurphy: thanks, much needed :( | 07:59 |
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| ttx | notmyname: I don't think we should abolish project walls. I'd like a two dimensional approach (similar to the one Kubernetes has been using in the past, although there are talks about moving away from it now): organize work based on objectives (horizontal: user experience, things-that-run-on-a-compute-node...) and based on where the code actually lands (vertical: which git repository) | 08:33 |
| ttx | Currently we mostly do the latter, which makes working on things like cinder multi-attach more difficult than it should be | 08:34 |
| ttx | and things like consolidation at the compute node level almost impossible | 08:34 |
| ttx | So for example, having a self-healing SIG that tries to make the set of projects in that space work better together is a great idea. | 08:37 |
| ttx | and I wish we had a backup SIG that organized the work between Freezer and karbor to reduce overlap there | 08:38 |
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| mnaser | ttx: you might be most familiar with this but where/how is the project navigator managed | 08:57 |
| mnaser | As part of my health check, a project that recently became official isn’t sure how to get added there | 08:58 |
| ttx | mnaser: it's part of the website managed by the Foundation web team. It's updated after release, so if that project was not part of te last release it's normal that it does not show | 08:59 |
| mnaser | ttx: I figured as much about the site being managed by the foundation. Let me see if it was included | 09:00 |
| ttx | mnaser: which project is it ? | 09:00 |
| mnaser | ttx: blazar | 09:00 |
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| ttx | Yes, should be included... | 09:01 |
| ttx | was in Queens | 09:01 |
| ttx | I can relay the ask | 09:03 |
| ttx | but we are working on a new version that is more directly tied to the map anyway | 09:05 |
| mnaser | ttx: if the work involved isn’t too much I’m sure the team would love to be seen there | 09:12 |
| ttx | it's totally something that was missed during the Queens update and shall be fixed. | 09:17 |
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| cdent | mornin' | 10:38 |
| cdent | [t 26rm] | 10:40 |
| purplerbot | <zaneb> obviously they're gonna hate it, but I want to know what are the things that'd make it difficult specifically [2018-07-04 01:20:51.795447] [n 26rm] | 10:40 |
| cdent | why obvious? I suspect that is the shared brain potentially hating it, not all individuals | 10:41 |
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| * fungi imagines the shared brain swimming in a jar of pink goo and communicating through a gravelly speech synthesizer | 11:50 | |
| fungi | the shared brain hates all things with appendages | 11:50 |
| cdent | exactly | 11:51 |
| cdent | groupthink is a powerful force, especially in nova | 11:52 |
| persia | Interestingly, groupthink is influenced nearly as much by what people outside the group think of the group as what the group actually thinks. | 11:54 |
| * cdent thinks persia has a set of modern-communication-buzzwords set up as irc pings | 11:56 | |
| persia | Rather, my IRC client doesn't do channels in the conventional way: I see all traffic over about 150 channels as a single infostream. "highlights" happen through keyword recognition by my brain, rather than algorithm. | 11:58 |
| ttx | ew sounds like a full time job | 11:58 |
| persia | That my brain happens to see "modern-communication-buzzwords" as "interesting", such that I inform my client that I want to see the context of the statement (and maybe reply) is perhaps telling about me. | 11:59 |
| persia | ttx: It's just a comms channel choice. Other folk have full time jobs reading all the mail on multiple mailing lists :) | 12:01 |
| ttx | you see right through me | 12:02 |
| * fungi searches the cosmic background radiation for grocery lists from parallel universes | 12:03 | |
| fungi | everyone needs a hobby | 12:03 |
| cdent | persia: I know you don't do much email, but you might be intrigued by some of the discussion on the thread around http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-July/131944.html . Both forward and backward in time. | 12:03 |
| cdent | fungi: are you sure those aren't grocery lists sent to you from the future instead of other universes? Your descendants are trying to adjust your diet. | 12:04 |
| fungi | that explains all the algae | 12:06 |
| * persia uninstalled his email client in disgust a couple weeks ago due to inappropriate licensing changes, and hunts down a new one | 12:06 | |
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| mnaser | how difficult is it to enforce PTL +1s for changes to certain repos | 13:05 |
| mnaser | like requirements or releases | 13:05 |
| mnaser | could we have a job that gets the gerrit change, looks up the ptl and checks for a +1 and then we can recheck on that? (though that sounds like a lot of wasted resources) | 13:06 |
| cmurphy | why does that need to be automated? | 13:07 |
| mugsie | I think we are better using humans - locking it down to one person can get messy | 13:23 |
| mnaser | mugsie: because some teams are overloaded and i feel bad enforcing more stuff on them | 13:31 |
| mnaser | i.e. "please make sure you get a ptl to +1 for requirement changes affecting said project" | 13:32 |
| mugsie | mnaser: oh, I know - but we can paint our selves into a corner by forcing a "ptl +1" for these teams if the ptl is awol / different TZ / is blocking for $reason | 13:32 |
| cdent | is this specifically about requirement changes? if so, why? | 13:34 |
| cdent | as in: what makes them special? | 13:34 |
| mnaser | cdent: in this case.. https://review.openstack.org/#/q/0227404b79404cc34784798654df771f180e896e | 13:38 |
| mnaser | a change to stable requirements didn't involve the team, it broke stuff for a while till they found it | 13:39 |
| mnaser | and the revert took ~2 days to merge | 13:39 |
| mnaser | so 2 days to merge revert, bad stuff merged since june 25 | 13:40 |
| cdent | oh you mean changes to the requirements repo. how would you identify the relevant PTL? | 13:41 |
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| cmurphy | seems like a prerequisite to automating that check would be making a policy for the requirements team to get a ptl +1 | 13:45 |
| cmurphy | but yes who the relevant ptl is is probably not always straightforward for requirements | 13:45 |
| mnaser | yeah in requirements it's a pretty hard thing | 13:49 |
| mnaser | i told the team in question that moving forwards if they're blocked maybe they can reach out to the tc and we can ping the people necessary to get it moving | 13:50 |
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| fungi | infra team has a similar sort of policy for job configuration changes, where we get the relevant ptl or any of their designated infra liaisons to +1 changes, but it's similarly not always straightforward to figure out so really only a best effort | 14:36 |
| fungi | i don't think i would try to automate those sorts of determinations | 14:36 |
| persia | If there is interest in such automation, asking teams to contribute tests that test if changes to infra, requirements, etc. affect them is probably the least painful way to do it, rather than trying to test whether a useful discussion happened between humans. | 14:40 |
| mnaser | that's pretty valid too | 14:44 |
| mnaser | maybe my approach wasn't the best, but it was an idea.. i certainly dont want to bother requirements team even more about figuring out impacts | 14:44 |
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| persia | I don't mean to shoot down your idea. Ideas are good. I just think tracking human interaction is a hard problem with human intelligence, and a harder problem for automation. | 14:52 |
| fungi | yeah, i think down the road where the yet-to-be-named pilot project managing community infrastructure will want to not be expected to know the configuration policies of every tenant it's hosting, so will want to delegate a lot of those decisions to teams in those other projects to decide (and they can automate some of those determinations or not as they desire) | 14:52 |
| scas | enforcing the ptl to do something depends largely on the ptl in question. due to the relatively low volume of chef-related changes, i try to weigh in on most every related patch i see, warranted or not | 15:23 |
| scas | that said, some changes to escape my purview if i'm not tagged on them | 15:26 |
| ttx | same for releases, we ask for a ptl or liaison +1 to approve release | 15:33 |
| ttx | it's part of the reviewer job to check for that | 15:33 |
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| scas | that reminds me. at some point, i need to bloviate about releases | 15:34 |
| fungi | is that short for webloviate? | 15:34 |
| scas | sounds like some sort of javascript mixin | 15:35 |
| scas | but, sort of | 15:35 |
| cdent | I'm _still_ undecided about adjutant. | 15:42 |
| scas | there was an email thread some time ago about chef's release process. rather, its lack of a modernized workflow using the releases repo. being that i'm hamstrung with natural progression and people growing as people do, anything that looks like it puts more work on me gets a stern glare from my cheshire cat. i do, however, want evidence of chef's aliveness to be where i can get it. even our friends | 15:44 |
| scas | from the gfw have shown minor interest, if only minor due to visibility. but, i want to deliver my artifacts in a manner as kolla, delivering to my own destination, just not with individual tarballs posted. acts like kolla, looks like openstack-ansible, seems to be the logical option. however, i have to account for 15 individual code repositories | 15:44 |
| scas | being that i don't know what i don't know, what i'd need is guidance on if that's a thing | 15:45 |
| scas | i apologize in hindsight for my extra wordiness. blame my past. | 15:48 |
| scas | the reason for the wall-o-text is that i'm looking to release another major revision sooner than later, and don't want to be the one still manually cutting releases | 16:01 |
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| shervy | TESTING TESTING | 16:43 |
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| cmurphy | scas: my understanding is that everything under openstack should be released by the release team using the releases repo, as per https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html "Releases of OpenStack deliverables are handled by the OpenStack Release Management team through the openstack/releases repository. Official projects are expected to relinquish direct tagging (and | 19:55 |
| cmurphy | branch creation) rights in their Gerrit ACLs once their release jobs are functional. | 19:55 |
| cmurphy | " | 19:55 |
| fungi | sounds like maybe he's also interested in creating chef-ecosystem-specific release artifacts which get published to a chef-ecosystem-specific place? | 21:07 |
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| scas | the repos are the artifacts, actually | 21:13 |
| scas | it's just a matter of how they're presented to the userspace tooling | 21:14 |
| scas | having a link to a tarball isn't super valuable in context. it can be made work, but is almost worse than doing nothing at all | 21:14 |
| scas | but, yes. the idea would be to publish them to the chef-specific place called, unsurprisingly, supermarket | 21:15 |
| scas | that part is the trivial one, from what i've been able to ascertain. the releases repo, however, is the big unknown since i am responsible for a bulk of the chef-specific changes | 21:16 |
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