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| evrardjp | mnaser: yes I will | 05:51 |
|---|---|---|
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| evrardjp | mnaser: I thought this had to stay for releasing on existing stable branches though, so let me double check | 05:54 |
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| ttx | tc-members assemble | 09:00 |
| cdent | o/ | 09:00 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 09:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 3 09:01:01 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 09:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 09:01 |
| ttx | #chair cdent | 09:01 |
| openstack | Current chairs: cdent ttx | 09:01 |
| * ttx copies fragility analysis top results to the health tracker for further analysis | 09:04 | |
| *** cdent_ has joined #openstack-tc | 09:04 | |
| TheJulia | Oddly enough I am awake at the moment... | 09:05 |
| cdent_ | Looks like my previous message didn't make it through: "My main topic of concern recently is how to make sure that we extract something useful from, and actually do something with, the various threads of discussion on adapting openstack to "now"" | 09:05 |
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| *** cdent_ is now known as cdent | 09:05 | |
| cdent | This is not still jetlag is it TheJulia ? | 09:06 |
| TheJulia | Unsure | 09:06 |
| cdent | good luck? | 09:07 |
| cdent | my sleep sadness story is Hayfever | 09:08 |
| TheJulia | It might be the same actually, no rain to knock allergens from the air | 09:08 |
| TheJulia | I guess one thing i wonder is given "now", how do we also foster an environme t where those discussions take place outside of our circle with effect and outcome. | 09:11 |
| cdent | yes, that's an excellent point | 09:11 |
| cdent | It's something I've really been struggling with a lot lately. Feeling very en-bubbled, but not sure how to get out given the constraints of existing obligations. | 09:12 |
| TheJulia | Trust with ahared purpoae is one way, but if you trust one person and their corporate overlords change their focus... There is not much that can be done. | 09:13 |
| TheJulia | Shared purpose | 09:14 |
| TheJulia | So setting the stage or environmenr where rhose discussions of directions taken are the resulting outcomes of our tuning, not our direct actions. If that makes sense. | 09:15 |
| cdent | In my mind that translates to getting people to believe in something (the shared purpose) | 09:17 |
| persia | To me, getting the existing openstack community to believe in a shared purpose would harden the walls of the bubble. | 09:18 |
| persia | Rather, I suspect new, fresh input is needed from a wider group that the current smaller group needs to also consider part of "us": those folk probably have new/different purposes | 09:18 |
| cdent | perhaps people != existing openstack community | 09:18 |
| persia | (but me calling them "those folk" is an example of the problem, really) | 09:19 |
| TheJulia | cdent: what about shared context instead of purpose | 09:19 |
| cdent | I guess it depends on what you mean by those terms but in my head the first is a requirement for the second, but only the second is something that results in action | 09:20 |
| cdent | that is one people have a shared context they may be able to recognize a shared purpose and choose to collaborate | 09:21 |
| cdent | s/one/once/ | 09:21 |
| persia | In another context, I'm currently dealing with a small project (tens of developers) that has started to suffer from velocity issues, both in terms of review bandwidth and in terms of progress on shared features (as interest groups start to choose to have "feature branches" as operational forks). This isn't the same problem as OpenStack, but it feels similar in some ways. | 09:22 |
| persia | One of the things we're doing there is removing the authority of those who have previously been responsible for guiding the main "upstream" direction, and instead just merging everything that passes CI, with the obligation on the interest groups to write tests for anything they care about. | 09:23 |
| persia | This has caused a number of interesting flame wars, but one of the most interesting aspects to me is that those whose authority was removed seem to be more active in reviews than before their authority was removed. | 09:24 |
| cdent | TheJulia: my feelings these days is that more us need to take a more active role in nudging what the shared purpose might be, by sharing (random) ideas. Which half the time sounds like so much noise, but if any of them land, that's good. | 09:24 |
| cdent | persia: that is interesting | 09:24 |
| persia | Also, the teams that had been slowly moving towards forks seem to be more active about getting tests for their use cases into "upstream", and getting their features landed. | 09:24 |
| TheJulia | persia: was it that they found new purpoae in trying to assert authority in code review? | 09:24 |
| persia | It's early days with the transition, but it seems to be working so far. | 09:24 |
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| persia | TheJulia: No, that those responsible for their time allocation suddenly saw a lot more value in them preemptively reviewing things :) | 09:25 |
| TheJulia | I see | 09:26 |
| cdent | ttx: I think we need to start thinking in terms of optionally breaking existing users. Things like "people can choose to use nova-compute or if they want they can choose to upgrade to nodelet the all-in-one compute node agent" | 09:27 |
| TheJulia | So i do agree with you cdent in thay we all, community collectively need to better share our xontext, not purpose. With that in the open, it hopefully becomes easier to negoriate and plan | 09:27 |
| persia | While the details differ, I think the audience is similar to the "now" issue: the important bit is making sure that things happen visibly to an audience that is able to allocate the resources to accomplish the desired goals. Just getting all the developers excited about things, with shared context and purpose, may not allow progress. | 09:27 |
| ttx | ok, I dropped nuggets of fragility facts onto the Health tracker for TC liaisons to further investigate | 09:27 |
| cdent | ttx: if we don't provide options for "different from how it always was" there's little to perceive as change | 09:28 |
| * cdent looks at tracker | 09:28 | |
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| ttx | using data from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/rocky-2-bus-factor | 09:29 |
| ttx | (which was generated by the script at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/579142/ ) | 09:29 |
| TheJulia | I'm not sure excited is the desirable target, in the grand state machine of the universe. Excited implies that we convinced them on shared vision instead of ahared context where we understand each other. | 09:30 |
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| * cdent smells brake dust | 09:34 | |
| cdent | and there's ringing in my ears from the way that conversation seemed to come to a screeching halt | 09:35 |
| * cdent sighs | 09:35 | |
| ttx | sorry, was still dealing with wiki edits | 09:36 |
| ttx | Also about to propose diversity tag removals -- how well do you think that will fly ? | 09:37 |
| TheJulia | cdent: sorry, i didnt mean to hit the breaks | 09:38 |
| persia | cdent: random changes is probably more confusing than useful. An unfiltered firehouse of proposals from all and sundry may provoke better debate. | 09:38 |
| persia | TheJulia: the implication was unintentional. I think it would be good if participants were excited. I think it would be better if that was organic, rather than directed. | 09:39 |
| TheJulia | persia: i do agree tbay excitement mighr lead there, but the key is to be excited about the same thing. | 09:41 |
| ttx | cdent: On the "optionally breaking existing users" it should definitely be something that is on the table... Although in that specific case i see no reason why the nodelet would not be a natural evolution of nova-compute :) | 09:41 |
| cdent | ttx: I'm +many on diversity tag removals and I think many people feel the same way: they are at best not meaningful, and at worst damaging | 09:42 |
| ttx | (taken over by a nodeSIG-like entity) | 09:42 |
| cdent | right "natural evolution of nova-compute" is too slow. that's why I think there needs to be concurrent advancement | 09:42 |
| cdent | persia: not random changes. random sharing of ideas from which to discover useful change | 09:43 |
| persia | Ah, yes, that makes more sense | 09:50 |
| cdent | In other, potentially less controversial news, I updated a story on storyboard related to communication notes in the project team guide to add a few more detailed tasks of things to clarify. There were fewer issues than I feared | 09:51 |
| cdent | #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2001710 | 09:51 |
| ttx | lgtm -- I did a pass on currentness on that guide but missed the weekly cross-project meeting mention | 09:53 |
| cdent | we've reached the end of the hour and seem fizzled out so... | 10:01 |
| cdent | #endmeeting | 10:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 10:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 3 10:01:27 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 10:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-03-09.01.html | 10:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-03-09.01.txt | 10:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2018/tc.2018-07-03-09.01.log.html | 10:01 |
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| flwang1 | @tc here, greetings, do we have any plan to create a slack workspace and then having channel for each project? cheers | 10:02 |
| cdent | flwang1: there's been discussions about using slack in the past, and the general consensus is that using a non-free solution is not aligned with openstack's principles | 10:04 |
| flwang1 | cdent: why LF & CNCF don't have such concern? | 10:05 |
| flwang1 | i think if we can have a slack workspace for openstack, which could be very handy for our contributors | 10:07 |
| flwang1 | because I think the contributors are overlaping between openstack and k8s | 10:08 |
| cdent | I agree there is definitely some overlap | 10:09 |
| cdent | I don't know why LF and CNCF don't have the same concerns. I personally wish they did. | 10:10 |
| ttx | we believe in using free tools to build free software | 10:10 |
| flwang1 | ttx: fair enough | 10:11 |
| ttx | Also SlackWe also like to be able to archive messages | 10:11 |
| ttx | without paying Slack $160k/year | 10:12 |
| flwang1 | ttx: can't we ask for non-profit account? | 10:12 |
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| ttx | that would not make it free. Slack does not work so well when you want to allow anybody to sign up | 10:14 |
| flwang1 | cdent: ttx: anyway, thanks for answering my question. at least now I know there are some reasons why we don't want to use it, cheers | 10:15 |
| cdent | flwang1: thanks for asking. any you do make a valid point: by not using it we are separating ourselves from the communit of people who do. That's a cost that we need to more consciously manage | 10:16 |
| ttx | Also Slack is not that awesome... I prefer Zulip. At least it does not encourage information overload | 10:17 |
| cdent | awesomeness of the tech doesn't have that much to do with anything. It's who is there that matters. | 10:18 |
| cdent | That's somewhat unfortunate but true. | 10:19 |
| flwang1 | i prefer slack is not only because it's handy than IRC, but also it can help group the openstack contributor and k8s contributors(a lot of them moved from openstack) | 10:19 |
| ttx | Well, "there" does not apply so well for Slack... since Slack workspaces are completely separated | 10:19 |
| cdent | Anyway, I must attend to some of the internet stuff, will be back later in the day. Good luck and good day to everyone. | 10:19 |
| * ttx lunches | 10:20 | |
| flwang1 | thank you | 10:20 |
| cdent | (that's not quite the "there" I meant, ttx. Rather "who is already using it". App inertia is a big deal.) | 10:20 |
| * cdent waves | 10:20 | |
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| cmurphy | if we added slack, with the purpose of attracting the people who overlap with kubernetes, we'd only be fragmenting our own community by splitting into separate synchronous mediums. | 10:38 |
| persia | It is not so much the medium as the tooling. When one has a consolidated client for multiple protocols, there is less cognitive dissonance. Sadly, consolidated clients are not in vogue this decade. | 11:30 |
| fungi | cdent: flwang1: the argument could also be made that lf and cncf choosing to move to slack separated them from others in their broader community who cared about free tools | 11:34 |
| fungi | i hesitate to view our choice not to follow them into that abyss as a failing on the part of our community | 11:36 |
| cmurphy | I don't think "hesitate" is a strong enough word here :) | 11:37 |
| fungi | yes | 11:38 |
| fungi | could just as well ask whether lf/cncf should move to irc | 11:39 |
| fungi | i'd rather not see us abandon our principles just so that we can gain more contact with other people who abandoned theirs | 11:40 |
| fungi | ttx: i think the diversity tags factor into the project maturity calculations in the project navigator, don't they? if you haven't already, should we give the foundation webdev team a heads up so they can recalibrate? | 11:47 |
| dims | o/ | 11:52 |
| cmurphy | fungi: we're paired up on keystone for health tracking, I went ahead and chatted with lbragstad and left some notes in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker#Keystone | 12:07 |
| fungi | thanks! | 12:08 |
| fungi | TheJulia: in that vein, i confirmed with hogepodge that refstack is indeed holding their irc meeting today (1700z in #openstack-meeting-alt) | 12:09 |
| ttx | fungi: there is no maturity score anymore those days. Only the diverse-affiliation tag shows if reached | 12:39 |
| fungi | ahh, thanks for confirming | 12:41 |
| fungi | in that case i can really see why we need to just drop it | 12:42 |
| EmilienM | hello (back for real) | 12:48 |
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| lbragstad | cmurphy: thanks | 13:39 |
| lbragstad | for writing that stuff down | 13:39 |
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| scas | i like slack for what it is, but it has extreme drawbacks being a pay-to-play freemium service. the lack of archiving until money is ponied up is the most concerning. there would have to be a majorly altruistic thing by slack for me to feel okay with that being a viable option for openstack in its current state | 13:48 |
| scas | moving to a free instance would be more detrimental than staying on irc and languishing under the weight of barrier to entry | 13:49 |
| scas | another community i frequent has their communities' chats on slack. it's fine for emojis and gifs, but the utility of it is largely locked behind credit card barriers. the same questions come up and there's no "just search the logs" | 13:50 |
| scas | unfortunately, there is no good replacement for irc. even irc itself isn't that great in 2018 because its trajectory is being redirected by people behind the scenes | 13:53 |
| scas | including this very network on which i emit typing noises | 13:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Remove team diversity tags https://review.openstack.org/579870 | 13:56 |
| fungi | scas: the infra team has pushed in the past to consider moving to oftc. if you dislike freenode's politics, more voices could help revive that effort | 13:57 |
| * smcginnis is (happily?) ignorant | 13:57 | |
| scas | fungi: it's not freenode's politics i'm concerned about, but their masters' motives | 13:57 |
| mugsie | for those of us who don't follow the politics of freenode, whats the issue? | 13:58 |
| scas | maybe it's just me, but when i see an entity taking over a space, it gives me cause for concern | 13:58 |
| mugsie | oh, this is the irc.com thing> | 13:58 |
| mugsie | ?* | 13:58 |
| scas | mugsie: related, yes | 13:58 |
| fungi | i feel like oftc's mission is better aligned with ours, but we ended up on freenode mostly i think because ubuntu was here | 14:00 |
| scas | of course, it's network effect. but that doesn't preclude changing things if the alignment is better. oftc, on-paper, looks like a better fit. hell, even efnet | 14:01 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, it looks like oftc has a pretty good philosophy. | 14:02 |
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| scas | the non-profit associated with oftc made my beard twitch ever so slightly in a positive manner. usually the beard knows things before i know them | 14:18 |
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| smcginnis | :) | 14:20 |
| TheJulia | I guess the one thing we should keep in mind is fragmenting communication channels is that they are already fragmented, and that a portion of the larger community can't even reach IRC unless they have a VPN or somehow pay for a service like irccloud... | 14:22 |
| mugsie | TheJulia: is slack the same as IRC for them, or is it allowed? | 14:29 |
| persia | Often slack is allowed (due to port choices). There are IRC-on-port-80 solutions, but they cost money for the user, typically. | 14:29 |
| mugsie | persia: yeah, for corp firewalls that is true | 14:31 |
| persia | Not just corporate firewalls. Some interchange gateways have similar port-based limitations. Remember, the internet extends to places where telecoms are not a private concern. | 14:32 |
| mugsie | sure - but places like that tend to block unmonitored chat services as well | 14:33 |
| mugsie | ironically, I can get on IRC from the office, but not slack :) | 14:33 |
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| fungi | scas: well, network effect and affiliation. we had a lot of ubuntu folk and services involved in the very early days. if we'd been more close with the debian community then oftc would have been a much more natural choice at the time since that's where all their channels are | 14:53 |
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| scas | i wasn't here in the very early days, essex was where i picked it up. but it makes sense | 14:56 |
| scas | i thought it was odd to sign up for lp, but didn't give much more thought to it | 14:57 |
| fungi | before git, openstack source code was managed using bzr in launchpad | 15:03 |
| fungi | it moved to using git in a gerrit server managed by members of the community, but bug tracking stayed behind in lp | 15:07 |
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| TheJulia | mugsie: afaik, china blocks slack as well | 15:20 |
| TheJulia | mugsie: I'd love a magical solution to provide one place for community to discuss, but I just don't think that it is possible in this current day and age | 15:22 |
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| scas | that basically leaves the code review tool as needing to stand in for the communications platform | 15:46 |
| scas | i dislike the notion, but there are few options to avoid fragmenting the channels further | 15:47 |
| fungi | and as far as communications channels go, i can think of worse options when most of what we need to communicate about is developing software | 16:03 |
| fungi | the other communications channel is task tracking/defect reporting | 16:03 |
| scas | ++ | 16:05 |
| fungi | and we _do_ have mailing lists and a q&a site | 16:06 |
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| fungi | so while real-time chat may be problematic from some places, we actually have a lot of other asynchronous communications channels | 16:07 |
| fungi | too many, some might argue ;) | 16:07 |
| scas | the real-time part is what most people miss or look for, because of that very point. too many asynchronous communications channels, so the feedback loop is harder to close. beyond the bikeshedding aspect irc fostered, "hey, can you review my change?" is an important part. sometimes i need to get your attention sooner than later | 16:10 |
| scas | for some reason, due to imaginary lines in imaginary sand, not everyone can use the traditionally developed means. in those cases, there almost needs to be an intermediary bridging those parts of the community across various real-time chat methods. feels like work, though. | 16:14 |
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| fungi | yeah, i agree that having _a_ real-time communications channel sort of acts as the glue which binds the various asynchronous channels together | 16:23 |
| fungi | having _multiple_ real-time communications channels is likely to fail at that purpose | 16:24 |
| fungi | unless, as you say, they're all just windows opening into each other so communication flows freely between them | 16:25 |
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| clarkb | ignoring freeness of tools like slack there are also logistical problems like https://github.com/rauchg/slackin | 16:52 |
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| fungi | i like how the description in their readme says "like freenode" not "like irc" | 17:16 |
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| * dhellmann notes that the wiki has stopped emailing him page updates, again | 17:37 | |
| fungi | dhellmann: for all pages, or just ones you didn't follow the links to while logged in? | 17:39 |
| dhellmann | fungi : the health tracker page in particular. I was receiving updates but did not for the edits ttx and others have made very recently | 17:39 |
| fungi | i think mediawiki avoids spamming you on multiple page updates by only notifying you on the first modification to a page since your last authenticated visit | 17:39 |
| dhellmann | hmm | 17:39 |
| dhellmann | that's unfortunate | 17:40 |
| dhellmann | that makes it sound like I need to make sure to login every day or something | 17:40 |
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| smcginnis | It seemed like I only got notifications on the first edit after I had made an edit. | 17:50 |
| smcginnis | Even if I flagged a page to watch it. | 17:50 |
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| dhellmann | tc-members: we should do something to move the adjutant application ahead. Please take a look and express your opinion so we can tell where we stand: https://review.openstack.org/553643 | 17:57 |
| fungi | dhellmann: smcginnis: yes, the link basically takes you to a view of all new changes to the page since your last visit | 17:58 |
| fungi | on the assumption that you don't want to get 20 notifications if someone makes 20 small edits to a page in a span of an hour | 17:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ok. I have missed a few days of edits. It sounds like you're saying I have to login and visit the page to refresh the instructions to send me updates between logins? | 17:58 |
| fungi | dhellmann: right, the notification is basically letting you know that you should expect there has been at least one edit since the last time you viewed the page history and/or edited the page | 17:59 |
| fungi | with the expectation that you then follow the link to look at the full list of edits since your last visit | 17:59 |
| dhellmann | ok. but I'm not getting those. at all. I visit the page, someone edits, I don't get email. | 18:00 |
| fungi | it only knows you've viewed the page/history if you're logged in | 18:00 |
| dims | ack dhellmann | 18:00 |
| dhellmann | perhaps my mental model of "since your last visit" does not match its | 18:00 |
| dhellmann | ugh. | 18:01 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : is there some way to just make it email me all the time? | 18:02 |
| dhellmann | it logs me out so quickly, I would basically have to login and review every page every day it seems | 18:02 |
| fungi | i'm not seeing options for that under watchlist or notifications preferences tabs | 18:11 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I have it set to send me every update and have all the little email check boxes checked | 18:11 |
| dhellmann | oh, well | 18:11 |
| fungi | also notifications and watchlist seem to be separate features | 18:11 |
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| fungi | ahh, reading https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Watchlist#What_happens_when_a_page_is_edited it looks like it might rely on the notifications implementation though | 18:14 |
| fungi | https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Watchlist#Email_notifications matches my recollection | 18:16 |
| fungi | "After receiving an email notification for a page, you have to visit the page while logged in if you want to be notified of further changes to the same page." | 18:17 |
| fungi | they don't mention any more verbose option to not require an authenticated visit between notifications for the same page | 18:17 |
| * smcginnis just discovered http://gerrithub.io/ | 18:18 | |
| fungi | that's been around for years | 18:18 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I'm slow. :) | 18:18 |
| fungi | operated by gerritforge.com | 18:19 |
| zaneb | smcginnis: coincidentally, gerrithub is also really really slow :D | 18:20 |
| smcginnis | :) | 18:20 |
| smcginnis | Looking at all the junk projects that are registered, I'm not surprised. | 18:20 |
| zaneb | RDO used to be on gerrithub until it moved to softwarefactory | 18:21 |
| fungi | looks like gerritforge goes all the way back to 2010, but i can't remember how long ago they started calling it gerrithub | 18:22 |
| cdent | dhellmann: on your report, the tech vision discussion very much rooted on zaneb too | 18:26 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : oh! please do follow-up and mention that. | 18:28 |
| dhellmann | sorry, zaneb | 18:28 |
| dhellmann | somehow I missed that in my notes | 18:28 |
| zaneb | cdent: maybe try to use a different turn of phrase ;) | 18:29 |
| cdent | zaneb: I shall watch my phrasing | 18:29 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: I don't actually care who gets credit, so no worries :) | 18:31 |
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| cdent | zaneb: I've blamed it all on you | 18:31 |
| dhellmann | zaneb : part of the reason for mentioning names is to show that TC members are actively working on these initiatives, so I want to mention the folks who are doing the work as an acknowledgement | 18:32 |
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| zaneb | cdent: maybe I can offload some blame on jaypipes | 18:34 |
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| cdent | zaneb: that seems fair | 18:46 |
| openstackgerrit | Jill Rouleau proposed openstack/governance master: Add ansible-role-tripleo-* roles to governance https://review.openstack.org/579952 | 18:56 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add check_review_status.py https://review.openstack.org/579953 | 19:02 |
| fungi | dims: TheJulia: i've added some initial info for the interop wg and refstack team to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker | 19:09 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add team fragility analysis script https://review.openstack.org/579142 | 19:09 |
| TheJulia | fungi: awesome | 19:11 |
| dims | thanks fungi ! | 19:11 |
| fungi | i caught them in their channel since they ended up not having their meeting today | 19:12 |
| fungi | tldr is that interop wg is probably business as usual, refstack is winding down activity for positive reasons | 19:13 |
| TheJulia | smcginnis: updated watcher on the the wiki based on current information | 19:21 |
| smcginnis | Perfect, thanks TheJulia | 19:22 |
| * cdent is far behind on many things | 19:23 | |
| jaypipes | zaneb: I'm too busy responding to kfox1111. | 19:26 |
| cdent | dood is prolific | 19:27 |
| cdent | he also seems sane | 19:27 |
| cdent | which is nice | 19:27 |
| * jaypipes declines further comment. | 19:32 | |
| dims | hahaha cdent jaypipes | 19:33 |
| * cdent laughs | 19:34 | |
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| dhellmann | fungi : re "refstack is winding down" -- does that mean it isn't needed? or it's "done"? or something else? | 19:48 |
| fungi | dhellmann: feature-complete | 19:48 |
| dhellmann | ok | 19:48 |
| dhellmann | we don't hear that very often around here :-) | 19:49 |
| fungi | it's nearly at the point where it implements the features its "customer" (the interop program) requested | 19:49 |
| fungi | and they don't foresee asking for it to do more | 19:49 |
| fungi | so it may need bug fixes from time to time, but new features aren't considered in scope | 19:50 |
| fungi | however the python-tempestconf deliverable may take on a life of its own | 19:50 |
| fungi | since it's useful for a lot of other cases | 19:50 |
| fungi | basically, where you want to perform an autodiscovery to generate a tempest configuration | 19:51 |
| fungi | refstack needed that functionality, but apparently so do other people | 19:51 |
| dhellmann | I can see that for cases where folks want to run tempest outside of refstack | 19:54 |
| notmyname | I'm sure people in here will fine http://ivory.idyll.org/blog/2018-how-open-is-too-open.html interesting | 20:09 |
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| cdent | thanks notmyname , goo drea | 20:22 |
| cdent | oops: good read | 20:22 |
| cdent | notmyname: the post following has a good title, will have to read it too | 20:23 |
| notmyname | indeed | 20:25 |
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| clarkb | One implied hypothesis (and sometimes is presented explicitly) is that open source is a direct cause of burnout. And yet studies seem to show it is an industry problem not a FOSS problem. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/57-percent-of-tech-workers-are-suffering-from-job-burnout/ we can tackle it iwthin FOSS but seems like a bad approach to blame FOSS | 20:44 |
| cdent | clarkb: I suspect that corporate supported open source presents some specific challenges with regard to burn out, as there are multiple and ofen conflicting audiences that a "proud" person will try to satisfy | 20:45 |
| clarkb | cdent: one of the common responses is "I'm not doing open source anymore" which won't fix the problem though | 20:46 |
| clarkb | (this author doesn't present that argument though) | 20:47 |
| cdent | no, not at all | 20:47 |
| * cdent adds it to the queue | 20:47 | |
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| fungi | the article resonates with my experiences, though the last paragraph doesn't do much to tie it to the headline. i think the author just wanted a punchy headline | 20:55 |
| clarkb | fungi: if you read the next one it is a setup for we need to change (and here is a proposed framework) because open source causes burnout | 20:56 |
| clarkb | and I think the danger with those conclusions is that open source is the problem and that fixing it fixes the problem | 20:56 |
| * cdent blames (poorly managed) capitalism | 20:59 | |
| fungi | yeah, haven't read the second one yet, but i too don't think free software is what's causing software developers to burn out. software is | 20:59 |
| jaypipes | notmyname: I particularly like the content about "extractive contributors". | 21:05 |
| fungi | sometimes less complimentarily referred to as "vampires" | 21:07 |
| fungi | or just "leeches" | 21:07 |
| zaneb | I was hoping the article would end with solutions, but it didn't really | 21:08 |
| fungi | "Luckily very few people use our software..." | 21:11 |
| fungi | also back to clarkb's point, comments like "the constant need to maintain our open source software" makes it sound like they've never worked on commercial/proprietary software either | 21:13 |
| fungi | all software has bugs, not all software has to be maintained by the same people (or at all) forever, nor do bugs necessarily have to be fixed the moment they're reported. if you're on a research kick and look at bug reports once a month, you're still doing better than the majority of the projects out there probably | 21:15 |
| notmyname | fungi: at the end of that post (the most recent one), I like the change in perspective from "big happy family and all work together" to one more focused on sustainability, including the realities of finances | 21:18 |
| fungi | yep, again no real solutions but sounds like our approaches are fairly similar wrt documenting governance models and trying to work out what messaging to potential contributors/investors should be | 21:32 |
| fungi | in lighter news, google wants to build an "open cloud" https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/06/why-google-believes-in-open-cloud.html | 21:34 |
| notmyname | completely honestly, one of the reasons I like these few posts is because it's examining how people work together, but not in the context of openstack. sometimes I get a bit tired of just hearing our own experiences of community building, so its nice to see other perspectives | 21:34 |
| fungi | yep, i completely agree | 21:35 |
| cdent | notmyname++ | 21:35 |
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| scas | as distasteful as it is to bring it up, the licensing of the software itself has not been kind to the notion of fostering work out in the open. i can take any of the openstack projects out there, from nova to chef, productize it and 'sell the crap out of it'. all the while not giving back a single line of code. that's great when you've corporations tying team/company goals to supporting a subset, but | 22:08 |
| scas | it does not help when those coffers eventually lumber away because something a little shinier caught their gaze | 22:08 |
| cdent | indeed. I don't get why people are so congratulatory about openstack's licensing. | 22:09 |
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| scas | my gut suggests dollar signs on a grand scale are why the glad-handing is even a thing | 22:14 |
| dtroyer | re licensing: I've seen in a couple of organization Fear of the GPL overrule all logic. corporate lawyers don't really know how to handle it. | 22:22 |
| cdent | Fear of the GPL is my next album | 22:22 |
| dtroyer | quote: "we don't allow using busybox because they sue people" | 22:22 |
| * cdent goes to bed | 22:23 | |
| dtroyer | gnight cdent | 22:23 |
| * cdent waves goodnight | 22:23 | |
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| * dtroyer goes to dinner | 22:23 | |
| smcginnis | bon apetit dtroyer | 22:24 |
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