Monday, 2018-07-02

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mnasermorning everyone12:37
TheJuliaGood morning12:44
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scas(i'm left-handed)15:28
dhellmannscas : I'm left handed, too, but I'm facing the other way ;-)15:36
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mnaserevrardjp: if you're around, openstack/openstack-ansible-security and openstack/openstack-ansible-pip_lock_down both seem to be retired but still under governance.  do you maybe want to submit a change to retire them in governance too?16:21
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cdentmusings is the right word for it smcginnis17:12
cdentor maybe even something more flightly17:12
TheJuliafightly sounds like a good startup name17:13
TheJuliaor resistance movement17:13
TheJuliaperhaps both17:13
cdentVC the resistance!17:13
scasthe ico is presently being staged17:15
cdentthe ico will be televised?17:16
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* TheJulia is confused by something being televised17:28
cdentweird: the description includes "No need to post about the Julia reference.  I understand it now, thanks to those who told me. :)"17:30
* TheJulia wonders if there is a time traveler here17:31
TheJuliaor there was...17:32
TheJuliaOh, it is in the song17:32
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scaswe are all time travelers jumping from planck frame to planck frame18:53
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openstackgerritAnne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions
TheJuliaannabelleB: Looks like you have some trailing whitespace in that19:01
annabelleBTheJulia: gah, just a few :) I’m the worst19:02
TheJuliaIt reads well, fwiw19:03
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annabelleBTheJulia: fantastic! That’s the hard part. Whitespace is just my newb ways showing.19:05
TheJuliaannabelleB: it happens to everyone :)19:05
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openstackgerritAnne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions
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mnaseri didn't really find something right off the bat19:27
mnaserbut does any governance doc document anything about 'removing cores'19:27
cdentmnaser: there's some talkin the project team guide about that, a little bitr19:28
cdentnot in the sense of needing to remove a "bad" core, though. Is that what you're concerned with?19:28
mnasernot necessarily, but say removing a core who is inactive19:29
mnaseri feel like if we have something written about "if someone hasn't made any reviews in <x> period, it is perfectly reasonable to remove them" .. to avoid some weird situation where someone feels oddly about removing someone else from the core team19:29
cdentyeah, the project team guide has some of that, if I recall right. Are you thinking a resolution of some kind would be useful as stronger statement19:31
TheJuliaI would +1 a resolution which would make me feel less bad about removing completely inactive cores19:36
cdentzaneb: did you just make some kind of equivalency between devstack and minikube?19:37
zanebcdent: pretty sure I did, yes19:38
zanebI even deleted all the snarky comments I might have made about devstack in the draft19:38
* cdent strokes beard19:38
mnaserso one thing that has come up through reaching out to projects was that19:38
* jroll notes that zaneb has not used both of these tools within the same memory timeframe :P19:38
mnaserthere is this weird feeling of removing a core who was there before you19:39
mnasereven if they are inactive19:39
zanebjroll: tbh I've barely used either of those tools19:39
* cdent nods at mnaser 19:39
mnaserit feels (indirectly) frowned upon because it's rarely done19:39
mnaserblasting out an email to a mailing list of a few thousands devs saying "we've stripped X out of core"19:39
mnaseris a big heavy thing to say19:39
jrollin the past I've reached out to the core being removed, before doing it, to have a chat about it. I found that helpful for my conscience19:40
cdentmnaser: presumably you've spoken to (or at least tried ot reach) the person beforehand, at which point it is okay19:41
* jroll removed the person that spearheaded ironic, that was tough19:41
TheJuliajroll: that does help...19:41
zanebyeah, that's good advice that should be in the project team guide19:41
TheJuliaAt the same time, we culturally should be ready, willing, and able to accept those people back19:41
mnasercdent: right.  however, it seems that in this case, this core did not get along so well with the ptl at the time19:42
mnaserand even though they have been largely inactive for over a year in the project, it might come off in a bad tone.19:42
cdentsome people (not saying this is okay or not okay), simply remove people because in the last N months they haven't reviewed enough stuff19:43
cdentclaiming that a data-based approached is okay19:43
jrollmnaser: feels like that's a special case, if I was put in that situation I'd use core team consensus19:43
mnaseris there a number that we feel like might be appropriate for "if you're inactive for x time, it shouldn't need a ton of moving around, messages, etc"19:45
mnaseryou can just be dropped and it's okay™19:46
TheJuliamnaser: I concur with jroll, I really feel is that there is a balance in each project that has to be maintained and each one is different, and consensus based is generally going to be the best for the community as a whole.19:46
TheJuliaI feel like that would be okay if we purposefully pass a resolution indicating that it is okay as long as projects recognize that people's priorities shift, and sometimes they need to step away against their own desire. Sometimes people come back, it is okay to remove people who have definitely stepped away/left upon returning if they are going to resume being invested in the community and working on that project.19:48
fungithe tc mostly doesn't talk about core reviewers because those are a per-project implementation detail19:48
TheJuliawe should recognize that things are going to vary, and if an arbiter is needed then the TC should be able to at least help resolve any such dispute19:48
fungiwhether and how a project manages its core reviewers have been considered previously to be the jurisdiction of the ptl19:49
zanebthere were projects in the past which will remain nameless that had a metrics-based approach with a list of people who were on notice to get dropped from the core team sent out every month, and it was as toxic as all get-out in my opinion19:49
fungiyeah, i felt similarly about that approach19:50
cdentthat anything is a per-project detail is something I think we might start considering as a bug19:50
cdentin the same that at least some are starting to think project identity is a bit of a bug19:51
zanebI tend to agree with fungi that a resolution is not the place for this, but we could certainly improve the project teams guide from a vague list of things to 'consider' to a list of strategies for dealing with various situations19:51
TheJuliazaneb: ++19:51
fungiif we start legislating details about how individual project teams self-manage, we might at least find out really fast which teams really want to remain part of openstack ;)19:51
zanebkind of like we did with the code review stuff19:51
cdentyeah, the code review changes are an excellent model to follow: rules of thumb for a few different situations19:52
fungii think that sort of thnig in the project-teams guide is great19:52
fungier, thing19:52
TheJuliaWe really shouldn't say "rules of thumb"19:52
fungirecommendations on how to self-organize are well placed in there19:52
fungii'm not a huge fan of "rules of thumb" phrasing either but don't feel strongly other than that we should avoid the term "best practices" like a plague19:53
zanebTheJulia: why not?19:53
* zaneb prefers 'heuristics'19:53
TheJuliazaneb: the origin of the expression is not exactly... great. :(19:54
TheJulia+1 to heuristics19:54
cdentheuristics is a great word if you happen to know it19:54
fungiwell, one of the "folk etymologies" anyway19:54
* cdent looks up history of the expression19:54
fungibut still fine to avoid it on those grouns19:54
cdentalso unfortunate19:55
zanebok, I had never heard of that19:56
fungithere are plenty of other, less colloquial terms we could use anyway19:56
fungibeing an idiom, it doesn't translate well to other languages19:57
zanebalthough from reading that page it sounds like that origin was made up by Americans in the 1970s, which may be why I had never heard of it19:57
TheJuliaAnyway, I didn't mean to derail the discussion. I feel like there a resolution encouraging self management and maybe discouraging pure metrics based approaches to "core reviewer" group management. or encouraging patterns to handle certain situations that are someone uncomfortable but at times necessary20:02
TheJuliaAnd with that, I'm going to go to the market!20:02
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openstackgerritAnne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section
openstackgerritMerged openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section

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