Monday, 2017-10-23

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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add policy artifacts for magnum
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TheJuliafungi, EmilienM, smcginnis: Thanks!14:16
cdentcongrats TheJulia, glad to have you14:17
cdentand welcome back EmilienM, wouldn’t be the same without you14:17
EmilienMcdent: the french/canadian touch? :P14:19
TheJuliaThanks! Glad to be here!14:19
cdentIt’s all about _you_, EmilienM, now where you are from or live.14:19
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EmilienMcdent: right :-) thanks14:25
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pabelangeris there onboarding docs new people should be reading?14:47
cdentwelcome pabelanger, congrats. If there are, I don’t remember them. ttx?14:48
fungipabelanger: in the past the tc chair generally covered that in the first meeting following the election, but now that we no longer have regular weekly meetings i expect that to find its way into ttx's next weekly status update or maybe as a separate post to the openstack-tc ml14:50
mtreinishthere is: but it's hardly exhaustive14:51
fungiyep, that's one of the things he linked to after the last election... in general just about everything under is at least worth a skim14:52
pabelangerokay, that is what I expected. But yah, will start skimming14:52
fungialso this is the tracker ttx has been updating:
fungiand for those who are unaware, we have three (entirely optional but encouraged) office hour blocks as well as a reserved weekly slot for a more formal meeting we sometimes exercise after some discussion and advance notice:
fungii generally attend the wednesday and thursday office hour since the tuesday one is pretty early in the morning for me (but is far more convenient to apac and emea members/contributors)14:57
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* TheJulia opens all the links for reading a little later today15:12
cdentTheJulia, pabelanger: the stuff that confused me the most is that there are different rules for different types of things on how many votes are required to pass. That’s covered in the links but it takes a while to set it, and I’ve not memorized it: more just accepted it.15:16
TheJuliaThat is a good strategy :)15:19
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sdaguecongrats: TheJulia, pabelanger, and cmurphy for coming on board15:21
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* cmurphy waves15:29
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fungisdague, mordred and stevemar left some big shoes to fill, but i'm confident we're all up to the task ;)15:47
zanebdhellmann: I only just saw your conversation with cdent above^ from Tuesday... did my last reply on the ML clarify anything for you?15:47
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dimsTheJulia : pabelanger : cmurphy : will you make it to sydney?17:47
dimsthere's a sunday joint meeting with the board and IC -
pabelangerdims: yes, I land 1800UTC Satuday.17:53
TheJuliadims: I'll be there. I land on Thursday because I adjust to that timezone kind of badly.18:01
cdentI was hoping to get there on thursday too, for the same reason, but couldn’t get flights to work out, so am arriving late friday18:04
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dimsack. please see the older discussion from the previous meeting (especially the last etherpad) on
dimspabelanger : TheJulia : cmurphy : ^18:04
TheJuliadims: thanks!18:06
pabelangerdims: will do18:10
openstackgerritTelles Mota Vidal Nóbrega proposed openstack/governance master: Marking Sahara policy in code goal as done
openstackgerritTelles Mota Vidal Nóbrega proposed openstack/governance master: Marking Sahara policy in code goal as done
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openstackgerritRuby Loo proposed openstack/governance master: Add the supports-rolling-upgrade tag to Ironic
EmilienMpabelanger: don't we land on Sunday morning 9.30 am local time?20:13
EmilienMpabelanger: if you leave Canada on Friday, you'll likely arrive on Sunday20:14
openstackgerritBrian Rosmaita proposed openstack/governance master: Add Glance planning artifact for community goal
pabelangerEmilienM: my mail client said 1800UTC, but could be wrong. But ya, land and run to meeting is likey the path20:18
EmilienMpabelanger: sorry, 8:25 AM local time on Sunday.20:22
EmilienMor 9.25? I don't know20:22
cmurphydims: yes i will be in sydney and in time to make the meeting20:25
dimscool thanks cmurphy20:25
cmurphyless time than i planned on for jetlag recovery :)20:26
dhellmannis anyone going to be around on saturday before the board meeting?20:52
dtroyerI will… actually landing on Tuesday & staying with friends for a few days20:53
* dtroyer will have no jet-lag excuses20:53
dhellmannah, nice.20:54
dhellmannI'm looking at things to do for the day. The zoo looks appealing.20:54
dtroyerWe're going to Taronga Zoo on wed or thurs20:57
fungii get in around 8am friday, so not a lot of opportunity to resume sentience by the time sunday rolls around, but should still be enough21:02
* fungi had originally volunteered to pitch in on the now-cancelled hackathon21:03
dtroyerI had not heard it was cancelled… but didn't know about it until PTG...21:03
fungisome sponsors pulled out at the last possible moment21:04
fungii think we didn't hear about the cancellation until the weekend, or thereabouts21:05
SamYaplehello peoples. i have been piecing together how to submit a project to be official from various places (havent done it for a couple years). i have a PR up in governance, but im wondering if there is more i need to do now?21:11
dhellmannSamYaple : I think that's it at this point. ttx will include it in the tc status update and in the mean time the rest of us will look at it and post questions on the review.21:18
dhellmannas long as you've answered the questions in the requirements for new projects, you should be all set21:19
SamYapledhellmann: awesome. thanks21:19
SamYaplei remember last time i had to put in on the tc meeting agenda, but thats not a thing anymore21:19
dhellmannyeah, it's already set to have a topic of formal-vote so it should show up in everyone's review list21:21
SamYapleb-e-a-utiful! thanks again21:25
flwangsorry, speaking of chiming in, is the board meeting open for non-TC?21:40
zanebflwang: the joint part of the meeting usually is, yes. but only to listen aiui21:45
flwangzaneb: ok, i see. thx21:47
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flwangzaneb: may be instead of trying to join the meeting at Sydney, I should try to run for next TC election21:49
dtroyerThe entire board meeting is open, except for executive sessions21:49
zanebflwang: why not do both? :)21:49
dtroyeropen to attend21:49
flwangdtroyer: cool, may I know the time and location?21:50
flwangI'm not sure if there are people like me working for openstack years but still not familiar with the process of TC21:51
dtroyerhmmm… I haven't received the online meeting invite for it yet, that's usually where I get the timing.  Here is the wiki page for it:
dtroyerflwang: I am sure you are not alone there21:52
flwangdtroyer: thanks21:54
flwangdtroyer: if i have some proposals I'd like to get a help from TC level, what's the process I should follow?21:55
dtroyerIt depends on the nature of the proposals.  Some things can go straight to a governance review, I think it is usually a good idea to talk about them beforehand, on the ML or in a TC office hours.21:56
flwangTBH, sometimes I'm a little bit afraid to send a proposal, especially  related to process, to mailing list, because typically the result is nothing, since it's too open and you always get yes and no, and then no result21:58
dtroyerthat is understanable.  The current easy way to talk directly with the TC is the office hours times, the second easy way is in this IRC channel whenever you can catch someone, like right now :)21:59
flwangdtroyer: cool, thanks for the offering22:00
flwangI'm selling my first idea22:00
dtroyerlooks like the next office hours is about 11 hours from now22:00
flwanghow to manage the new contributors power22:01
dtroyerI'm not sure exactly what that means22:03
flwangdtroyer: we can see many commits about the typo22:06
dtroyerah yes, that sort of thing, ok22:06
flwangso a straightforward way is reduce the weight of those kind of commit, because I know commits is a KPI for some companies22:06
flwangand another thing I'd like to suggest also related to this is create another new index/metric based on value instead of number22:07
dtroyerone thing to consider is that the existing metrics (primarily Stackalytics) are not actually controlled by us.  I'm not sure that the foundation even controls the existing site yet, it might still be the Mirantis one (there was an effort begun to change that a long time ago that I think stalled)22:11
dtroyerwe have long had the issue where companies (and individuals for that matter) make up their own ways of counting things that we can not control.22:11
flwangbecause some companies in China, say government, when they ask for tender, they may make the a condition like this, as a tender, you must be the top 10 openstack contributors as for commits22:11
dtroyerone argument is to give them something that we do control that hopefully is hard to abuse, that is much easier said than done22:12
flwangdtroyer: that's what i talking about basically22:12
dtroyerthat sort of thing was very common in our community back when it was mostly startups and we have (finally) gotten most of the long-time contributing/sponsoring companies out of that mindset22:13
flwangmitigate the importance of commit number, add a new metric based on 'VALUE'22:13
flwangand the core team and decide the value of the commit/patch22:13
dtroyerI think that is really the only good solution, because anything else can, and will be, be gamed22:13
flwangfor example, if you're contributing a top 5 wanted projects, you get higher weight/value than normal22:13
dtroyerthe effort in making the value determination has a time factor that gets added onto someones workload?22:14
flwangif you're fixing a critical bug, even though the fix is only one line, it gets much value than a 1000 lines typo fixing22:14
dtroyeranother issue I see with that is now it is much more subjective, and controlling the people who make those determinations becomes one way to game that (IE, hire all of the PTLs)22:15
flwangit could take time, but better than doing nothing22:15
dtroyerI think our experience with the early companies here is that education is really the best long-term approach22:15
flwangdtroyer: i don't think hiring more PTL is a bad thing, if a company has many PTL, they know openstack a lot22:16
dtroyeralthough some never caught on, they also did not last so long either22:16
dtroyeryou are right, someone needs to hire PTLs :)   the issue though is hiring for the wrong reason also leads to un-hiring them for similar reasons, and that is not always healthy for projects or OpenStack as a whole22:17
flwangagain, the value  is not only managed by the PTL, is decided by the core team22:17
flwangso that to encourage people to contribute to the hard but valuable things22:18
dtroyerthen s/PTL/core/ above22:18
flwangthings are changed as i mentioned before, do we still think there are many contributors around for each project?22:19
dtroyermy feeling is that encouragement needs to go to the people who allocate resouces, usually the same people who look at numbers without really wanting to understand them22:19
dtroyerwe do still have a large number of contributors, but their 'type' has changed maybe22:19
flwangthat's the another thing we should do, but I'm trying to figure out if there is anything TC can help to lead the community22:20
dtroyerwe will go around-and-around on this for a long time staying in generalities22:20
dtroyerthe tings we have already determined are things like the top 5 (or3 or whatever) list to help everyone understand some things that we think are a priority22:20
flwangdtroyer: ok, i won't argue the number of contributors, as a developer working openstack for years, I know what's the happening22:21
dtroyerthat is the sort of thing the TC can do directly.  we have no actual resources to direct22:21
dtroyerecept ourselves22:21
flwangthen TC may need to think about how to leverage some resources22:21
dtroyerI'm not saying there are not other things we could do, I don't think it is clear yet which ones of those will pay off22:22
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dtroyerleverage resources from where?22:22
flwangdtroyer: at least, PTL22:22
flwangmay be I'm the only person/PTL, i don't think TC has enough communication with PTL who maybe one of several contributors for the project22:23
dtroyerthe TC doesn't control anything that PTLs actually spend time on, outside of setting policies that they will need to follow.  have a look at the goals efforts and see how well even that level of priority setting goes for many projects22:23
flwangdtroyer: that's the thing cdent and i discussed days ago22:24
dtroyerwhat does work is for someone, not necessarily a TC person even, to take charge of a 'thing' and do the leg work to get everyone on board22:24
flwangthe things TC are doing are a slights different from the contributors expect22:24
dtroyerthat says we may have not been effective at setting expectations22:25
flwangdtroyer: could be, so maybe TC can send a survey to community22:25
dtroyera survey that would do/ask what?22:26
flwangthe expection gap22:28
flwangthen we can think about how to fill the gap22:28
flwangso the things like, TC think the TC's scope is {1,2,3} , community think the scope of TC is {3,4,,5}22:29
flwangis it a bad idea to figure out the 4 and 5 and see how to improve it?22:29
dtroyeris that the most important thing we should be doing next?  ie, are the scope things [4,5] in your example more important than [1,2]?22:30
flwangdtroyer: until we figure out, we don't know22:30
flwangat least for me, I don't think my 5 is under covered22:31
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flwangand the thing I'd like to clarify is, I'm not saying TC should also take care the gap 4 and 5, they could be done by other people/group22:32
dtroyerone problem here is that you will not get a majority of anyone to agree on this.  OpenStack tires to be all things to all people, which I think is a mistake.  We are not doing many of the areas we try to serve at the best of our abilities.22:32
flwangthat's true, it's back to the atomic issue, what's the openstack? :D22:33
dtroyerif your thing 5 is really important to you, ultimately it is up to you to see that it gets done.  it may require TC blessing, it may not, but either way that's all it is is a blessing, or a suggestion that others do not value it as much as you do22:34
flwangdtroyer: ok, fair enough, thanks for listening my noise22:35
dtroyerwe know what openstack is, the problem there is those who do not like the answer keep re-phrasing that question in hopes of changing it, without just addressing that head-on.22:35
dtroyerflwang: it isn't noise.  I hope this helps you clarify what you want to do, it helps me understand things going on that I do not see directly22:36
dtroyerand I hope that my sharing some of our histroy is not percieved as me trying to say no, it is meant to help understand how we got where we are22:36
flwangdtroyer: i know there are still people think openstack should be like blocks, it's fine, but my point is if we want to grow, we need to be integrated22:37
flwangthe only way I can see to help the integration is the "blessing" from TC22:37
dtroyerI do not think that blessing would change much at all.  to do the integration that I think you are looking for requires the projects to come under direction from a central authority in a manner that they do not do today.   that is a  pretty fundamental change, and that is the part that I think we keep sidestepping22:38
flwangand if that's the not the work TC should do, we need a power from another group to push it though the group could be not existed now. Before that, we need to create the group and empower it22:38
flwanginteresting "sidestepping"22:39
dtroyerthis new group would 'take over' the set of projects they want to integrate?22:39
SamYaplei/win 3222:40
dtroyerie, tell them how they need to proceed in order for everyone to be on the same page?22:40
flwangwe got integration within those "core" projects (nova, neutron, glance...), so we got a success (somebody could argue) IaaS22:40
* dtroyer has win32 flashbacks to NT, thanks Sam :)22:40
flwangand then somebody say, OK, stop, we have a good IaaS, let's say OpenStack is a IaaS platform22:41
flwangif we're happy at current status, we don't have to push any integration more and just let projects born and dead22:41
flwangdtroyer: is that a bad world?22:42
flwangre " ie, tell them how they need to proceed in order for everyone to be on the same page?"22:42
dtroyermaybe not, but it isn't the world that we explicitly set up in 2010.  that is a major change22:44
flwangopen is double-edged22:44
dtroyeryup, and for some business goals, the fuzziness of control is very disconcerting22:44
flwangwe should grow and embrace the change22:45
dtroyermaybe?  it goes against my instincts, but then I'm not in charge of the buisness needs of any of our corporate sponsors22:45
flwangi believe TC has a higher level and me, but I just want to dump my mind in case it's listened carefully22:46
dtroyerthank you for sharing, it is very informative for me at least22:46
dtroyereven if we do not agree.  I'll still buy you a $COLD_BEVERAGE when we next meet :)22:46
* flwang just take a screen-shot and will show dtroyer this at Sydney summit to get free cold drink22:47
dtroyerdeal :)22:48
dtroyeralso, thank you for running for the TC, we have a great slate of candidates, please do not let it stop you from trying again in the future22:48
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flwangas a diplomatic answer, I would say, no, i will definitely run for next one22:49
flwangbut TBH, I'm not too sure22:49
flwangas a developer working on openstack more 6 years, I deeply care about openstack, but after discussed with you guys (you, cdent, zaneb, flaper...), I'm not sure if there is a space I can help on the higher level to help openstack at this stage. will see. hopefully i won't be layoff before next election :D22:52
dtroyerI am being called to dinner… remember, you don't have to actually be a TC member to have an effect and get things done22:53
flwangdtroyer: have a great dinner22:54
flwangenjoy your night22:54
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