| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/governance master: Update py35 goal status for nova https://review.openstack.org/487684 | 03:41 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: charms: Add deployment guide https://review.openstack.org/483428 | 09:40 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove nonexistent deb-mistral-dashboard https://review.openstack.org/483577 | 09:41 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove 'Big Tent' mention from licensing reqs https://review.openstack.org/484607 | 09:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Removing api-site and faafo from doc team repo list https://review.openstack.org/485249 | 09:49 |
| *** sdague has joined #openstack-tc | 09:55 | |
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| * smcginnis takes a seat in the corner | 15:00 | |
| * cdent waits for smcginnis to flip the sign | 15:00 | |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| * smcginnis gets back up and flips the sign | 15:01 | |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:01 |
| fungi | ooh, the tc is IN! | 15:01 |
| ttx | 你好 | 15:01 |
| fungi | i need a better font on this machine | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | ttx is getting fancy now | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | http://art.cafimg.com/images/Category_2305/subcat_15061/h6U4txLh_1602141638551.jpg | 15:02 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: +1 :D | 15:02 |
| fungi | granted, i'm on the patio, looking out across the water and stoking the grill getting ready to smoke a bunch of sausages... i shouldn't complain about font | 15:02 |
| smcginnis | Nice! | 15:03 |
| * dims waves | 15:03 | |
| ttx | Quick braindump on the recent trip to Asia in general and China in particular | 15:03 |
| fungi | ooh, yes please | 15:03 |
| dtroyer | o/ | 15:03 |
| ttx | We had lots of questions on how to become a TC member | 15:03 |
| fungi | that one has a surprisingly simple answer | 15:03 |
| ttx | I explained that since it's ruled by popular election, becoming a very visible, useful and respected member of the community was a prereq | 15:04 |
| ttx | fungi: simple for us, not necessarily intuitive for them | 15:04 |
| smcginnis | My impression was the TC in general was something not really well known there. | 15:04 |
| ttx | I tried to generalkly give the advice of reaching out to PTl and saying "how can I help you" | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 15:05 |
| fungi | ahh, good point, not all cultures have a tradition of electoral systems | 15:05 |
| ttx | explained that offering help/offload tasks is more useful than any direct contribution | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | I think we're going to have to be very active in identifying potential candidates and helping them find opportunities to contribute in a way that will give them a shot in elections if we want to build a real pool of leadership talent | 15:06 |
| ttx | Chinese culture is very much into ranking, getting to the next level and receiving appreciation | 15:06 |
| dims | ttx : "we have x number of people in TC" is some sort of status symbol. i've been fighting to correct that | 15:06 |
| ttx | dims: yes that ^ | 15:07 |
| fungi | dims's progression "ladder" idea may be useful there | 15:07 |
| ttx | For example they say "He is TC" rather than "he is a TC member" | 15:07 |
| dims | i keep telling everyone that i can be as effective (if at all) in getting things done whether i am a TC member or not | 15:07 |
| dims | hard for that message to get across | 15:08 |
| dims | right fungi | 15:08 |
| smcginnis | dims: +1 | 15:08 |
| fungi | though at the same time, it would be disingenuous to give the impression that there is any sort of hierarchy of elected positions, or that any of us is more important than someone else just because of that | 15:08 |
| dims | exactly | 15:08 |
| ttx | yes, a ladder could help I think. We also need at the very least to give some form of recognition to people tacking useful things (the top-5 list, championing goals, etc.) | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | ttx: what was your impression of the response to suggesting that they dive in and start helping? | 15:09 |
| ttx | fungi: yes, the risk is in artifically crating a hierarchy | 15:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: the reaction felt like "Oh! That's easy" | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | well that's refreshing | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | it sure beats "I'm not allowed" or "I'm not given time" | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | I was also trying to encourage actvity on IRC. I would love to come in in the morning and see that there were a lot of good conversations over night. | 15:10 |
| fungi | i tend to think that if there is a "ladder" it reaches from new contributor/user/operator to a nebulous cloud of core reviewers, liaisons and elected positions | 15:10 |
| dims | ++ smcginnis | 15:10 |
| ttx | In other news, like I mentioned yesterday the sync meetings have been consistently mentioned as a pain point | 15:11 |
| smcginnis | I definitely was hearing the same. | 15:11 |
| ttx | I witnessed first hand how difficult it is to feel part of the community activity while being in that timezone | 15:11 |
| ttx | no meeting, little IRC activity, limited infra presence | 15:12 |
| sdague | yeh, we need to get people less alergic to doing real conversations in email :) | 15:12 |
| fungi | ptl (for a few more weeks) hat on, i've been trying to make sure that outcomes from most of our in-meeting discussions are to start an ml thread. that seems to be working well enough | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | and also to learn to write shorter emails | 15:12 |
| ttx | Interestingly, they love the idea of meeting F2F, they just wish those would happen more often in areas where it's easy for them to travel to | 15:12 |
| ttx | They understand that forging direct contacts is important | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: +1 | 15:13 |
| ttx | In terms of tooling, being in mainland China for 4 days only confirms my conviction that we need to rely on simple communication tools, avoid Google tooling which is very difficult to access | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | Extremely difficult. | 15:14 |
| fungi | infra root sysadmin coverage in various timezones is of course a challenge... i would gladly mentor additional sysadmins who express an interest | 15:14 |
| ttx | I'm almost for banning Hangouts at this point | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | +1 | 15:14 |
| ttx | I know it's a bit unfait | 15:14 |
| ttx | unfair* | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | Completely locks them out. | 15:14 |
| fungi | locks me out too, unless i compromise my ideals | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | Maybe we should come up with a list of recommended collaboration tools or something. | 15:15 |
| ttx | Twitter was inaccessible for me. Slack and Skype worked OK, though, which raises interesting questions | 15:15 |
| dims | ttx : everyone was on wechat | 15:15 |
| ttx | yes, no question about that | 15:16 |
| dims | everyone there | 15:16 |
| ttx | Wechat really rules there | 15:16 |
| mtreinish | ttx: it depends on a bunch of factors | 15:16 |
| ttx | (#runsonoopenstack) | 15:16 |
| sdague | we definitely need something that's got video in any recommended list | 15:16 |
| mtreinish | when I was there last month my cell provider was routing youtube traffic through malaysia (it did the same thing with hangouts) | 15:16 |
| ttx | sdague: yeah, I think we need to offer a counter-offer | 15:16 |
| mtreinish | but hotel wifi was a no go | 15:17 |
| cdent | It sounds like we are reponding to “sync meetings are bad” with “here are some other tools for sync meetings" | 15:17 |
| sdague | that can be used from lower bw areas, one of the reasons hangouts got used was that folks in australia couldn't use straight web-rtc | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Is zoom OK for you? | 15:17 |
| ttx | smcginnis: I doubt that. | 15:17 |
| ttx | mtreinish: yes, data from US SIM cards let you access ~everything | 15:17 |
| sdague | because the bw management on web-rtc fell over on their links | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | cdent: I think it's more of - if we need something sync, what can we use that doesn't lock certain groups out. | 15:17 |
| dims | mtreinish : ttx : employees mostly don't take their work laptop home from what i heard. so folks who work with us usually have their own and access from home | 15:17 |
| ttx | mtreinish: doesn't mean they can access | 15:18 |
| fungi | now if only we could get wechat addresses to stop spamming our ml -owner addresses | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | cdent : I thought it was more "here are some options for ~f2f" but yeah | 15:18 |
| mtreinish | ttx: no I agree, and we shouldn't assume they can | 15:18 |
| mtreinish | ttx: I was just saying the connectivity thing isn't as clear cut as X doesn't work in China | 15:18 |
| fungi | right now anyone with a @qq.com address can't contact -owner on a number of our major mailing lists | 15:18 |
| ttx | In other news, we have lots of new users in China, some pretty impressive ones | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 15:19 |
| ttx | Some cool ones, like China Railways high-speed train network running train positioning and traffic on openstack | 15:19 |
| lbragstad | that's cool | 15:19 |
| ttx | (fwiw their high speed train network is already larger than the rest of the world combines) | 15:19 |
| ttx | combined* | 15:19 |
| ttx | They plan to build a Beijing-London line | 15:19 |
| * dims digs up links to photos | 15:20 | |
| ttx | On the technical side, most of the complains I geard are for old users still running Juno or before | 15:20 |
| ttx | heard* | 15:20 |
| fungi | if we need something sync, irc is far superior to anything which involves non-native english speakers listening to a bunch of people talking over each other, whether it has pretty pictures or not | 15:21 |
| ttx | from* | 15:21 |
| cdent | fungi++ | 15:21 |
| fungi | the impression i get is that for sync communication, text is still better than the alternatives | 15:21 |
| ttx | fungi: yes, they just find that the discussion goes fast on IRC, but video hangout is even faster | 15:21 |
| dims | bunch of links to pictures etc - http://paste.openstack.org/show/616749/ if anyone is interested | 15:22 |
| fungi | so the knee-jerk reaction of "sync communication is a challenge for some people, let's replace irc with video chat" is counter-prouctive | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | dims: ;) | 15:23 |
| dims | fungi : right | 15:24 |
| ttx | fungi: i think video chat can be useful for team building, like open discussion at the end of a text meeting | 15:24 |
| ttx | but beyond that, drawbacks probably beat benefits in terms of inclusion | 15:24 |
| smcginnis | I think it was appreciated the number of Foundation staff that were able to attend. | 15:24 |
| ttx | I think it's a very good experience to go at lest once there | 15:24 |
| * fungi puts on a more fancy hawaiian shirt for the on-camera open discussion portion | 15:24 | |
| ttx | least* | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | fungi: LOL | 15:25 |
| * ttx can't type today. Blaming keyboard adjustment | 15:25 | |
| smcginnis | fungi: Yout dress Hawaiians vs your casual Hawaiians? :) | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | *your | 15:25 |
| dims | ttx : can the foundation start/maintain an "official" wechat group? | 15:26 |
| sdague | fungi: disagree, video transfers a ton of information about who is understanding things or not | 15:26 |
| smcginnis | They are all on it now. :) | 15:26 |
| ttx | dims: yes it's in the cards | 15:26 |
| sdague | there is no active feedback on whether any irc listeners are understanding what is said | 15:26 |
| dims | ++ ttx | 15:26 |
| dims | sdague : bandwidth is very bad... | 15:27 |
| sdague | dims: I definitely understand all the challenges | 15:27 |
| sdague | but I want to rebut: "if we need something sync, irc is far superior to anything which involves non-native english speakers listening to a bunch of people talking over each other, whether it has pretty pictures or not" | 15:27 |
| sdague | because I think it's factually wrong | 15:27 |
| cdent | I think the facts are hard to pin down | 15:28 |
| cdent | it is definitely the case that different people, no matter where they are, have different preferences and challenges when it comes to communication | 15:28 |
| cdent | I personally find video to be the worst option in email, irc, in person, audio, video | 15:29 |
| dims | sdague : all the k8s meetings are hangouts/zoom, not many people have their camera on | 15:29 |
| fungi | sdague: i have enough of a challenge understanding people in irc, it's helpful to be able to reread things later to improve my understanding. that's far harder with voice or video chat | 15:29 |
| cdent | but I know plenty of people who feel otherwise | 15:29 |
| smcginnis | I think it's good to have alternative options though. | 15:29 |
| sdague | dims: yeh, conf calls (be they in some other tech) I would agree are not very useful (again you lose that feedback bit) | 15:29 |
| fungi | i guess the point is that irc has an additional async component which recorded voice discussions are not so great for | 15:30 |
| ttx | That is all the insights I have at this stage, maybe some more will come to me once I'm no longer jetlagged | 15:31 |
| cdent | ttx: did you get any sense from the “new big users” that they were or were not aware of their opportunities to contribute? | 15:31 |
| fungi | i also have the added challenge of high latency and poor bandwidth a lot of the time, which makes even voip a challenge much less video streaming, but i'll grant that's mostly only the case in the developing world and maybe we care less about encouraging participation in places like that? | 15:31 |
| ttx | As usual, lots of positive community energy received at the OpenStack Days | 15:31 |
| fungi | (irc and e-mail are very low-tech-friendly) | 15:32 |
| ttx | They were all 1000+ attendees things | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | My impression from some was OpenStack was a product they receive, not something they are part of. Though that is changing. | 15:32 |
| ttx | smcginnis: yes, lots of work to do there | 15:32 |
| cdent | smcginnis: yeah, that gets to the guts of my question | 15:32 |
| sdague | smcginnis: is that the same or different than interactions with other open source things? | 15:33 |
| dims | ttx : the other feedback i got was to prepare everything ahead of time (not wing it!) in terms of putting things in powerpoint or email or something else, before a meeting. so it's easier for those who are not native speakers to prepare a response or concern | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | But still questions like "Can we get the roadmap for the next year+" that need some education. | 15:33 |
| sdague | like is it specific to openstack, or is it generally that way | 15:33 |
| sdague | regardless of project | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | sdague: Probably the same. | 15:33 |
| dims | ++ smcginnis. "give me the list of features you are developing" | 15:33 |
| fungi | yeah, i wonder about the extent to which those organizations already participate in other free software projects | 15:33 |
| ttx | OpenStack has great momentum in China, so some users are coming to it just because everyone else is, not for specific values | 15:34 |
| fungi | or whether we're the gateway to free software participation for them | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Right - for some it's the only cloud option. | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | ttx: So use isn't driven by any sort of open source ideals. | 15:34 |
| dims | yep | 15:34 |
| ttx | which is great, but means we have a lot of education work to do | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 15:34 |
| cdent | Can someone remind me: the joint meeting with the board is the day before the PTG, yes? | 15:36 |
| cdent | Is there any in progress work which needs to be attended to before then? | 15:36 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Yes on date, not sure on work. | 15:37 |
| ttx | cdent: yes, and they expect progress on the "work streams" we defined in March | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | I have that meeting down for 9:00 AM on the 10th | 15:37 |
| ttx | so if you are part of one of the workgroups, good to sync with your teammates | 15:37 |
| cdent | ttx: are we tracking those workstreams somewhere? | 15:37 |
| ttx | there MUST be an etherpad | 15:37 |
| ttx | which MIGHT be linked from a wiki page | 15:38 |
| smcginnis | Good luck searching for it. :) | 15:38 |
| ttx | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/UnofficialBoardNotes-Mar8-2017 has group members | 15:38 |
| cdent | etherpads have such fatal flaws | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-forum-unanswered-requirements has a bunch of links for that group | 15:39 |
| ttx | each group SHALL have other documents I suspect | 15:39 |
| dims | ttx : too many specs? (MUST/MIGHT/SHALL) :) | 15:40 |
| * cdent approves of ttx’s RFC typing mode | 15:40 | |
| ttx | I made multiple references to the TC office hours that are in China-friendly time, and encouraged people to show up and ask questions | 15:40 |
| cdent | as all that predates my membership, if anyone wants some help/input/whatever in a group, let me know | 15:41 |
| ttx | I'm pretty sure thingee would not mind someone else in the "simplification" group | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | cdent : it sounds like one area of help would be pulling together those links | 15:41 |
| fungi | ttx: awesome! the 01:00 wednesday hour has been very quiet most weeks so far :/ | 15:41 |
| cdent | dhellmann: apparently so | 15:41 |
| fungi | yeah, thingee sort of just threw himself on the simplification one because there were no volunteers to take it on, or even help him with it | 15:42 |
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| fungi | awesome, we managed to fill up 2/3..3/4 of the hour with heated discussion. i call success | 16:00 |
| smcginnis | Not bad. | 16:01 |
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| dhellmann | hey, folks, I could use some opinions in this thread, please: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-July/120254.html | 23:06 |
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