Tuesday, 2015-07-21

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tangchenHi all, may I ask something about CI ?07:06
tangchenI have setup my CI, and it seems to work.07:06
tangchenBut when I use git review07:06
tangchensend a patch to openstack-dev/sandbox, CI connection is fine.07:07
tangchenBut jenkins doesn't run the noop-check-communication test07:07
tangchenzuul log gives this:07:08
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tangchen2015-07-22 11:44:28,680 DEBUG zuul.Scheduler: Adding trigger event: <TriggerEvent comment-added openstack-dev/sandbox master 203912,1> 2015-07-22 11:44:28,680 DEBUG zuul.Scheduler: Done adding trigger event: <TriggerEvent comment-added openstack-dev/sandbox master 203912,1> 2015-07-22 11:44:28,680 DEBUG zuul.Scheduler: Run handler awake 2015-07-22 11:44:28,681 DEBUG zuul.Scheduler: Fetching trigger event 2015-07-22 11:44:07:08
tangchenIt seems too long......07:08
tangchenPlease refer to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/203941/07:09
tangchenFnst OpenStackTest CIis my CI.07:09
tangchenBut noop-check-communication test didn't run.07:09
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anteaya#startmeeting third-party08:06
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 08:06:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.08:06
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openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.08:06
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)"08:06
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'08:06
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anteayasorry I'm late08:06
anteayaanyone here for the third party meeting08:06
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anteayatangchen: hello08:11
anteayatangchen: you need to make sure that your system doesn't submit the merge failed message back to the patch08:11
lennyb_anteaya: Hi08:11
anteayahi lennyb_08:11
anteayatangchen: that is just noise about your system and doesn't help devs08:11
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anteayalennyb_: how are you today?08:12
lennyb_anteaya: thanks. how are you today?08:12
anteayatangchen: I don't see enough information to know why the test didnt' run08:12
anteayalennyb_: well thank you08:12
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anteayalennyb_: and you?08:12
tangchenanteaya: Hi, thanks for the reply.08:13
tangchenBut I don't quite know how to stop it from sending merge failed message08:13
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lennyb_anteaya: I am ok, but it's still early to be absolutely sure08:14
tangchenAnd could you please tell me what info you need ?08:14
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anteayalennyb_: I understand08:15
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lennyb_tangchen: sorry, I missed the start of the discussion, are they valid merge failures or it's a environment issue?08:15
anteayatangchen: well for starters you are responsible for however your system interacts with our gerrit, so if it posts a comment you have to make sure it is a comment you want, not just anything your system produces08:16
anteayaso you have to ensure it isn't posting merge failure comments back to our gerrit08:16
anteayabefore you move off of the sandbox08:17
anteayaand thank you for using the sandbox08:17
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lennyb_anteaya: I think it's part of the CI, if merge fails for a good reason CI should report about it.08:17
anteayalennyb_: no, the comment merge failed isn't helpful08:18
anteayabuild succeeded or build failed08:18
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anteayatelling someone they need to rebase their patch isn't the role of a third party ci08:18
anteaya#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-meeting/%23openstack-meeting.2015-07-21.log.html#t2015-07-21T07:06:2008:19
anteayatangchen was an hour early for the meeting08:19
lennyb_anteaya: I am not sure that zuul can filter such things, I will check it08:19
anteayawell we have told other operators not to post such messages08:19
anteayaand they have accomplished it08:19
tangchenHi lennyb, anteaya: OK. I understand. But I dob't know how to config it to not to send such messages.08:19
anteayatangchen: thank you, and that's fine08:20
anteayayou might have to run your own filter script08:20
anteayaso that if your system produces such a message you don't send it08:20
anteayawe don't need such a filter for infra so I doubt it is a configuration that can be set with the tools08:21
lennyb_anteaya: but this script should be integrated with zuul....08:23
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tangchenlennyb_: Yes, I think this is a good idea, and will be much easier to use.  But again, I'm sorry, I don't know what a filter script looks like.08:25
anteayalennyb_: if you would like to offer a patch then folks can offer their opinions08:25
tangchenIs it a shell or python script which I need to write myself ?08:25
anteayatangchen: yes08:25
anteayait would be a script you write to filter messages before they are sent to gerrit08:26
lennyb_I will consider this, since we are experiencing such problem from time to time.08:26
anteayalennyb_: thanks08:26
tangchenI think I can offer a patch since I want to join into CI development as soon as possible,08:26
anteayatangchen: thank you08:26
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anteayatangchen: get something working on your system first and then offer a patch to gerrit08:27
anteayatangchen: thanks for your enthusiasum08:27
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anteayatangchen: so as to why your zuul doesn't trigger a job08:27
anteayaI would need to see the full zuul log for that event08:27
anteayado you know paste.openstack.org?08:28
tangchenwait a min08:28
anteayayou paste the text into a window08:28
anteayaand then bring the url of the paste back here08:28
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anteayato the meeting08:28
anteayadon't paste into the channel08:28
lennyb_tangchen: if merge failed there is no reason to run a job08:29
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anteayalennyb_: but did the merge fail or is that the default message the system is sending out08:29
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anteayabut you are correct, if the merge actually failed then the job wouldn't run08:30
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lennyb_anteaya: according to the message merge failed. We saw the same message when merge failed indeed.08:31
anteayait just isn't a message that is helpful to devs08:32
anteayafrom your system08:32
anteayabecause is the patch actually needs to be rebased, Jenkins will tell them08:33
lennyb_anteaya: this message comes from zuul developers :)08:33
anteayatangchen: thank you08:33
tangchenPlease refer to this url08:33
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anteayalennyb_: right because zuul was written for infra, which needs to post the message, not for third party ci, which doesn't08:33
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anteayatangchen: that patch adds a new file with no content08:35
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anteayatangchen: while that should be enough of a change to allow the patch to be tested, perhaps you can add some content to the file for testing purposes08:35
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tangchenwait a min please08:36
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* anteaya waits08:37
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anteayalennyb_: anything you wanted to talk about today?08:38
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lennyb_anteaya: no.08:38
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anteayaokay, thanks for being here and helping tangchen :)08:40
tangchenhere, please08:40
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anteayaokay so you created a job and you can get it to run locally but you can't get it run on your patch08:41
anteayain your zuul/layout.yaml file08:42
anteayayou need to ensure the job is on the repo being tested08:42
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anteayafor instance on the cinder repo for infra's tests, these are the job names that zuul knows about: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/project-config/tree/zuul/layout.yaml#n164608:43
anteayaif the job isn't in the zuul/layout.yaml file, zuul doesn't know about them08:44
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lennyb_tangchen: you also need to check in zuul.log what happened. If your changed was 'noticed' by zuul and what was decided.08:44
anteayadoesn't know about it (it == the job)08:45
anteayalennyb_: good point08:45
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lennyb_you can increase debug level of zuul and gearman plugin ( if you use it), but in general zuul debug log provides you with enough info about it's steps08:46
anteayawe have about 15 minutes remaining in the meeting, I just want to ensure you understand this is a meeting channel tangchen, not a channel for general questions08:46
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anteayatangchen: what project do you want to test with your ci system?08:46
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anteayaonce it works08:47
tangchenanteaya: For now, just build the CI system and test sandbox08:47
anteayaoh okay, well I ask because finding an operator who also tests the same project is helpful for you08:48
anteayaso you have someone to ask questions08:48
anteayaand a channel to have the conversation in08:48
anteayaas the -meeting channel is for meetings only08:48
tangchenSorry for that and thanks for the info:)08:49
tangchenWould you please tell me where is the best place to ask questions ?08:49
anteayatangchen: no problem08:49
anteayaright, I'm trying to do that08:49
anteayathe best place to ask is in the channel of the project you want to test08:50
anteayaas someone is probably already successfully testing that project08:50
anteayaso you can find them and they can help you08:50
anteayayou can ask in -infra but sometimes we get too busy and can't be as helpful as we would like to be08:51
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tangchenOK, thanks. I'll check what you said above to see what the problem is.08:52
tangchenAnd BTW, what does a meeting mean ?08:52
tangchenwhat should I do in a meeting ?08:53
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anteayawe are in a meeting right now08:54
anteayaare you using irc from the web browser?08:54
anteayaand meetings are all structured differently08:55
anteayahere is our channel logging page: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/08:55
anteayait has links to all the meetings we have08:56
anteayayou just starting asking questions an hour before this meeting08:56
anteayaand most meetings are held at a time which is convient for north americans08:56
lennyb_ok, sorry, but I must leave now. see you next time08:56
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anteayalennyb_: thanks lennyb, see you next time08:56
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anteayabut I have this one specifically for people who have the sun in the sky now08:57
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anteayatangchen: if you are using irc from a web browser I suggest you install an irc client08:57
tangchenOK, thanks.08:58
anteayatangchen: I find x-chat has a client of all 3 major operating systems08:58
anteayaand I do believe is open source08:58
tangchenOK, I'll install it08:58
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tangchenBye :)08:58
anteayaokay thank you tangchen08:58
anteayasee you next week at the same time I hope08:59
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anteayait seems we are finished so I will end the meeting08:59
anteayasee you next week09:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"09:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 09:00:07 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)09:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-08.06.html09:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-08.06.txt09:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-08.06.log.html09:00
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Qiming#startmeeting senlin13:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 13:00:27 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Qiming. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.13:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.13:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'senlin'13:00
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Qiminglet's get started?13:00
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Qimingpls feel free to add agenda items: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SenlinAgenda13:01
yanyanhuQiming, your hello is a little earlier ;)13:01
Qiming#topic add agenda items13:01
*** openstack changes topic to "add agenda items (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:01
Qiminghi lisa13:01
Qiming#topic liberty-2 targets13:02
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*** openstack changes topic to "liberty-2 targets (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:02
Qiming#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/senlin-liberty-workitems13:02
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Qimingseems we have accomplished a lot, :)13:03
yanyanhuyes, progress is good I think13:03
lixinhui_if any update on binding.rst?13:03
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yanyanhulatest unit test cover rate is 71% in my local env :)13:04
Qiminghere: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/201009/13:04
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Qimingwe still have some monsters to kill?13:05
yanyanhuyes, about action and also some drivers13:05
jruanoyes i am working on a few13:05
lixinhui_I wanna try something about policy binding of node-placement policy13:05
Qiminglixinhui_, that would be good13:06
Qimingthanks, jruano13:06
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Qimingmaybe we can target a placement policy implementation for liberty-3?13:07
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Qimingliberty-3 is 2015-09-01 I think13:07
yanyanhuthat will be cool13:07
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yanyanhunow we don't have any implementation about this policy13:07
Qimingit doesn't have to be a full-featured version13:07
QimingI think lixinhui_ has got some problems passing 'scheduler_hints' to nova13:08
Qimingand sometimes this is intermingled with the server-group nova api13:08
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Qimingas far as I know, the nova server profile has something to be hardened13:09
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Qimingfor example, the 'networks' property might be 'nics'13:09
lixinhui_yes, seems openstacksdk will transfer all attrs into server: {}13:09
Qimingwe need to look into the nova-api to find out the details13:09
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lixinhui_but scheudler_hints should be os:scheudler_hints: {}13:10
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Qimingokay, it would be good if we can find the latest nova api doc13:10
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yanyanhuQiming, maybe also the trust API doc13:12
Qimingthere are some other notions in sdk: server_interface, server_metadata and server_meta13:12
yanyanhuyes, I noticed that the function calls related to server_metadata are still not there13:12
Qimingyanyanhu, trust for api invocation?13:12
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QimingI have proposed a server_group resource to sdk, but their acceptance of new resource types is frozen for the moment13:13
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QimingI don't think trust would be part of nova api13:14
yanyanhulast time, you shared a link where the trust API description is a little different from the current one we are refering13:14
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yanyanhuyes, sure13:14
Qimingit is completely an interaction with keystone13:14
yanyanhuI mean keystone v3 API13:14
Qimingah, that wiki page, I checked the history, it was written in 2013, may be outdated long time ago13:14
Qimingthe only thing you can trust is the code itself13:15
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yanyanhunot sure whether this doc is updated13:15
Qimingfor some projects, I believe so13:15
Qimingfor others ... em13:15
Qimingdefinitely no13:15
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yanyanhubut I found neutron related API doc is right13:16
Qimingfor example, you can check the ceilometer api there13:16
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yanyanhuneed test13:16
lixinhui_report a bug13:16
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lixinhui_poor network at home13:18
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Qiminglixinhui_, you will check the senlin-api output for this13:19
Qiming500 Internal Server Error means a real problem at api/engine side13:19
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Qiminglook for this line "Failed checking service user checking." in senlin code13:20
haiwei_I found something similar like this13:20
Qimingyou will know what happened13:20
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Qimingplease file a but for this13:20
QimingI think it could be a configuration problem13:20
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Qimingfor example, if you are using 'demo' user in the 'demo' project13:20
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Qimingthe user has to be configured as the 'admin' of the project, or else some keystone policies will block you from doing useful work13:21
Qimingif that is the case, we need to update the setup document and the devstack plugin code13:21
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Qiminganother improvement I see is the client code, the client can be improved to understand this kind of errors instead of reporting an 'ValueError'13:23
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Qimingso .. please file bugs when things don't work13:24
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Qiminganything else for the liberty-2 targets?13:24
yanyanhuhi, Qiming, last time, you mentioned that maybe we can try to provide a first release13:25
yanyanhuby the end of liberty-213:25
Qimingwith just 1 week left?13:25
yanyanhuem, a little difficult I think13:25
yanyanhubut we need a plan I think ;)13:26
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Qimingit would be a good practice though I don't think the release itself will change the world13:26
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Qiming#action Qiming to investigate release procedure13:27
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Qiminganyway, we will definitely do a release by liberty-313:27
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Qiminglet's think about it -- what do we want to go into the release13:28
Qimingwe can discuss it in our next meeting13:29
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yanyanhuem, especially what features will be included in the first release13:29
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lixinhui_another thing I do not know if we should do in senlin is locale13:30
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Qiminglixinhui_, you mean internationalization?13:30
lixinhui_a light one ...13:30
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Qimingem ... I can read a little French, a little German ...13:30
lixinhui_each time I wanna run senlin on my mac, I have to resolve local UTF-813:31
Qiminghaiwei_ can do some Japanese I think13:31
QimingUTF-8 is the standard encoding, especially for Python 313:32
haiwei_I am using a English environment13:32
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Qimingwe do have infrastructure to extract strings for translation13:32
Qimingthe community has a shared project doing that: i18n13:33
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Qimingso far we have been transmitting and storing data in UTF-8 I think13:33
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Qimingokay, let's move on13:33
Qiming#topic update on complex (scaling) policy13:34
*** openstack changes topic to "update on complex (scaling) policy (Meeting topic: senlin)"13:34
Qimingthis has been my focus recently13:34
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QimingI haven't checked in any code yet, because nothing is in good shape yet13:35
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Qimingin this work, I'm trying to model a scaling policy in 3 sections:13:35
Qimingsignal, schedule, handlers13:35
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Qiminga signal can be a ceilometer alarm, a monasca alarm, a zaqar message, for example13:36
Qimingbut the policy will contain only a single signal entry, that is a restriction to simplify implementation13:36
Qimingwhen modeling the signal section, I spent some time studying the ceilometer alarm API doc, which is in nowhere13:37
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Qimingthere are threshold alarm, combination alarm and ... gnocchi alarms13:37
Qimingproperties vary between different alarm types13:38
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Qimingand .... I saw this command:13:39
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Qiming ceilometer alarm-gnocchi-aggregation-by-metrics-threshold-create13:39
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Qimingkind of driven crazy by this ...13:39
haiwei_a long command13:39
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Qimingand things like this: ceilometer alarm-gnocchi-aggregation-by-resources-threshold-create13:40
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Qimingsigh ...13:40
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Qimingany way, I will try my best to make the 'signal' specification applicable to most alarm types13:41
Qimingthe second 'section' is 'schedule'13:41
Qimingthis is designed for scheduled action triggering, it can be used with and without a signal section13:42
lixinhui_knock knock13:42
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lixinhui_seems you once said ceilometer13:42
Qimingif there is a signal and a schedule section, it means some action will be triggered during the 'schedule' window13:42
lixinhui_will change the alar13:42
yanyanhuyes, they have a plan to split alarm out of ceilometer13:43
haiwei_to where?13:43
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jruanothey are keeping ceilometer alarms for now until they make sure they don't break anything13:43
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Qimingif only 'schedule' section is provided, then the policy will take effect only during the target window13:43
jruanoheat team almost had a heart attack13:43
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jruanothe switch is supposed to be transparent13:44
Qimingyes, that is ....13:44
QimingI'm speechless over that patch13:44
yanyanhuhaiwei_, a new project named Aodh13:44
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haiwei_difficult to read13:44
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Qimingso, we need to keep an eye on that, and hopefully understand their new api design soon13:45
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Qimingthe last section in the complex scaling policy is about 'handlers', yes, plural form13:45
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Qimingit is a list of actions to be triggered when some 'alarm' or 'message' is received13:46
Qimingthe good news is that both Ceilometer and Monasca support a list of webhook urls13:46
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QimingI have almost finished the parsing of the 'handler' section13:47
Qimingmaybe I should check in a WIP for you guys to comment13:47
Qimingbut don't +2 on it yet, cores13:47
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yanyanhuwill help to review the code one you submit it13:48
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Qimingthanks, that would be great13:48
Qimingplease as picky as you can be13:48
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Qimingany questions/comments so far?13:50
jruanoi like the design approach. would be nice to investigate the code13:50
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Qimingokay, will check in the code tomorrow13:50
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Qiming#topic open discussions13:51
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haiwei_the error lixinhui_ has reported is similar like this https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-senlinclient/+bug/147255713:52
openstackLaunchpad bug 1472557 in python-senlinclient "cluster, profile and node can't be updated" [Undecided,New]13:52
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1472557 in python-senlinclient "cluster, profile and node can't be updated" [Undecided,New]13:52
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Qimingone thing above my head is about the talk proposal13:52
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1472557 in python-senlinclient "cluster, profile and node can't be updated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/147255713:52
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jruanoyes, need to get started on an outline and some initial content13:52
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Qiminghaiwei_, will look at it later, thanks for reporting13:53
yanyanhuand anyone has decided to join the summit?13:53
Qimingwe need a POC implementation of a container cluster13:53
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Qimingit won't be very difficult if you are using CoreOS guest image13:54
QimingI had some experiments before, though not a cluster environment13:54
yanyanhubut we need a driver for this?13:54
Qimingit is just a nova server13:54
Qimingwith some extra metadata13:55
yanyanhuoh, you mean lxc supported by nova13:55
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Qimingsomeone need to dive into magnum code to find out what else do they need from a VM to run containers13:55
Qimingno, not lxc13:55
Qimingmagnum is building bays using nova servers (VMs) and then create containers inside the VMs13:56
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jruanoah i see, so just some extra nova server data13:56
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Qimingyes, that could be a quick experiment13:57
Qimingyou need some k8s or docker packages in the image13:57
jruanoi can take a look. when do you need it by?13:57
yanyanhuwith user_data and cloud-init?13:57
Qimingjruano, the earlier the better13:58
Qimingyes, yanyanhu13:58
jruanoill see if i can get to it later today13:58
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Qimingthanks, jruano, ping me if you need some help on starting this13:58
Qiming#action Julio to experiment with containers13:59
Qimingokay, time's up13:59
Qiminglet's go to #senlin13:59
Qimingthank you all13:59
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"13:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 13:59:28 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)13:59
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openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-21-13.00.html13:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-21-13.00.txt13:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/senlin/2015/senlin.2015-07-21-13.00.log.html13:59
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mesteryneutron drivers meeting in 1 minute14:59
mesteryamotoki carl_baldwin dougwig (and kevinbenton since he;s on PTO)15:00
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mestery#startmeeting neutron-drivers15:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 15:00:18 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers'15:00
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mestery#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NeutronDrivers Agenda15:00
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mesteryOK, lets get started, I'd like to just walk through some RFE bugs today.15:00
mesteryDoes anyone have any other agenda items?15:00
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mestery#link https://goo.gl/xtBJkU RFE bug link15:01
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mestery#link https://goo.gl/xtBJkU15:02
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0xad70250>15:02
mestery#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/137003315:02
openstackLaunchpad bug 1370033 in neutron "Admin should be able to manually select the active instance of a HA router" [Medium,Confirmed] - Assigned to yong sheng gong (gongysh)15:02
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1370033 in neutron "Admin should be able to manually select the active instance of a HA router" [Medium,Confirmed]15:02
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1370033 in neutron "Admin should be able to manually select the active instance of a HA router" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/137003315:02
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mesteryThis one needs a spec, which I've commented on15:02
neiljerramHi there.15:02
mesteryAnyone want to add color to this particualr bug?15:03
mesteryneiljerram: Greetings!15:03
neiljerramJust reminder that I think you wanted to look at my RFE/devref.15:03
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neiljerramBut perhaps that comes under the general RFE section15:03
mesteryneiljerram: Lets do that one now, do you have a link?15:03
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mestery#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/198439/15:04
amotokimestery: does a spec means to use neutron-spec?15:04
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amotokiI remember we had a question which we use spec repo or devref last week.15:04
mesteryamotoki: Yes15:05
* carl_baldwin did not finish the follow-up for that question15:05
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amotokiwe still continues to use neutron-spec. clear!15:05
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mesteryamotoki: ++15:06
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mesteryneiljerram: So, looks like armax had an interesting comment on this devref15:06
mesterycarl_baldwin: ^^^ See armax'scomment as well15:06
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neiljerramYes.  I was just about to get to that.15:06
neiljerramHe had good comments on the DHCP change, too.15:06
mesteryarmax always has good comments :)15:06
mesteryI think the thing is, the model being proposed is obviously calico specific15:07
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neiljerramI've tried to draw a line between something that would be a useful more-generic Neutron concept, on one hand, and the specific Calico implementation, on the other hand15:07
mesteryneiljerram: Have you considered armax's idea about the type driver living in networking-calico?15:08
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mesteryThat might be a good place for it to start, but it may tie it even closer to calico.15:08
mesteryI also worry about how this work will tie into and possibly derail carl_baldwin's routed network work15:08
mesteryI don't want to slow that down given the operator requirements there15:08
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neiljerramAgreed, and I am trying to help there too.15:09
mesteryExcellent! I do appreciate your help in all these areas :)15:09
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neiljerramBut also - to be clear - my team has many partners who are very interested in the Calico approach, and would love that to be under Neutron's wing, in some sense.15:09
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mesteryUgh, net split :(15:10
carl_baldwinI keep getting comments from people that mine and neiljerram ’s proposals should be aligned more.  But, I still am having trouble seeing how they can be combined.15:10
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mesteryneiljerram: If you were to keep the type driver in networking-calico, it's part of neutron, as that project is under the neutron stadium15:10
neiljerramSure, yes.15:10
mesteryIt could evolve there, similar to other things like L2GW, SFC, etc.15:10
mesteryI'm just thinking out loud here15:11
neiljerramThe only specific thing why I need something in core Neutron, is to act as a trigger for the DHCP agent changes that we need.15:11
mesteryneiljerram: Is that in the devref? I'm looking again.15:11
neiljerramThat's a different change...15:12
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mesteryneiljerram: Yes, I've reviewed that a bit.15:13
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* carl_baldwin realizes he needs to look over that change.15:13
neiljerramIn other words it boils down to: if I want to make a DHCP agent change that is triggered by my particular network:provider-type, does that network:provider-type need to exist in core Neutron, in order to motivate that?15:14
amotokineiljerram: i haven't looked thru your reviews, but is there any pointer which describes the mertis of your approach from oeprators perspective?15:14
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neiljerramamotoki: Yes, sure, although not really in the review jobs I have up at the moment.15:15
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amotokiif we go to the way of a new type driver, we need to have a guidance of choosing a type driver. It is the one of the hearts of RFE.15:15
neiljerramamotoki: Those are more written from a dev/community perspective.15:15
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neiljerramamotoki: Not quite sure what you mean there...15:16
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mesteryI think we need to discuss this in the broader neutron meeting. carl_baldwin amotoki: What do you think?15:17
amotokineiljerram: I am trying to understand the motivation, but perhaps I need to read yours more and it will answer it.15:17
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mesteryThese changes are fundamentally changing the underlying neutron logical model, and I'm still concerned that we'll have this implementation and carl_baldwin's version of routed networks15:17
mesteryAnd they will be different15:17
amotokimestery: agree.15:17
mesteryAnd we'll have a mess15:17
neiljerramamotoki: In broad terms, we many partners who like the simplicity of our approach.15:17
mestery#info Discuss neiljerram's routed network and DHCP changes in meeting next week15:17
neiljerramamotoki: But I can certainly find more for you than that, I think.15:18
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mesteryOK, lets discuss in a future meeting, neiljerram, pelase add this to the agenda here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings under "On Demand"15:18
carl_baldwinNow that I have a pretty good understanding of the calico ML2 piece, I need to wrap my head around this DHCP change.15:18
neiljerramOK, thanks everyone for considering this!15:18
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amotokineiljerram: perhaps what yoru partners see is one of the answers. let me check this week.15:19
mesterycool, thanks neiljerram carl_baldwin amotoki15:19
carl_baldwin#action carl_baldwin will review DHCP change.15:19
mesterylets move on15:19
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mesteryI know rmoats had one for us to discuss15:19
mesteryrmoats: You around?15:19
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* mestery waits 60 seconds for rmoats to jump up15:20
mesteryHave a link to your RFE?15:20
rmoatsI was afraid you were going to ask for that :)15:20
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openstackLaunchpad bug 1475736 in neutron "Add instrumentation to Neutron" [Undecided,New]15:21
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1475736 in neutron "Add instrumentation to Neutron" [Undecided,New]15:21
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1475736 in neutron "Add instrumentation to Neutron" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/147573615:22
rmoats(found it)15:22
mesteryrmoats: Are you going to work on this one should it get approved?15:22
rmoatsmestery: yes - I'm planning on putting in the cycles15:23
rmoatsand grabbing other resources as needed15:23
rmoatsI don't foresee this landing fulling in liberty15:23
rmoatsparts, hopefully :)15:24
mesteryrmoats: That's good, because I don't either ;)15:24
rmoatsbut it will stretch into mitaka15:24
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rmoatsand maybe beyond15:24
rmoatsnote: this will be a lightning talk at the operator midcycle next month15:24
amotokiwe have several similar proposals: statistics, logging, usage, and so on.15:24
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amotokione of big questions is how we define API URL structure.15:25
rmoatsamotoki: what do you see the API URL structure doing?15:26
mesterySo, this seems pretty straightorward to me, the hardest part will be coalescing with the other projects and the ceilometer integration15:26
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rmoatsmestery: that's not in this rfe15:26
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rmoatson purpose - that's a separate headache15:26
mesteryrmoats: The ceilometer integration?15:26
rmoatsyes... that's *not* part of this rfe15:27
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mesteryThis RFE is just about collecting and storing the statiscis?15:27
rmoatsmestery: yes15:27
amotokirmoats: if so my comment is a bit different15:27
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rmoatsmore collecting15:27
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rmoatsI'm not really interested in becoming big data15:27
amotokifor logging or usage, others requests REST API to retrieve usage or logging of event (e.g, operations for resources, seggroup logging... )15:28
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amotokirmoats: reasonalbe requests to me.15:28
rmoatsamotoki: yes, that's why I asked what the API URL would be for15:28
mesteryThere's no API proposed here, this is literally just collecting and storing stats15:29
amotokirmoats: thanks for the clarification.15:29
mesteryAm I right?15:29
amotokido we need a counterpart for ceilometer?15:29
rmoatsamotoki: yes, if you look at the etherpad, that is part II15:29
mesteryamotoki: That's what I was thinking15:29
rmoatsmestery: my hope was to avoid storing large amounts of data15:30
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mesteryrmoats: OK, so more of a cache until it lands somewhere like ceilometer?15:30
rmoatsmestery: ++15:30
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carl_baldwinI’m not following.  We’re going to collect data and then do what with it?15:31
rmoatspart I: we make sure we can collect the data15:32
rmoatsthat's this RFE15:32
rmoatspart II: we get it over to Ceilometer15:32
rmoats(that will be a different RFE/project)15:32
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carl_baldwinFor part I, is the data going to a big bottomless bit-bucket then?15:32
rmoatspart III: we get Celiometer to share the info with operators in their preferred method - outside scope of neutron15:32
rmoatscarl_baldwin: no - as mestery said, a cache that refreshes15:33
rmoatsI do *NOT* want to be "big data"15:33
rmoats"big data" == "bottomless bit-bucket"15:33
amotokia kind of new notification APIs from neutron to ceilometer :)  like MIB counters (in my understaindng)15:33
rmoatsamotoki: that's where I'm going15:34
carl_baldwinrmoats: I just wanted to be sure I understood the scope.15:34
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rmoatscarl_baldwin: sure -15:34
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rmoatsand I'm very sensitive to storing too much data15:34
* rmoats has the scars from other projects trying to do that15:34
carl_baldwinI now see that phase I is a stepping stone to something but not useful by itself.15:34
mesterycarl_baldwin: Always to the point :)15:35
carl_baldwinThat’s ok sometimes.15:35
rmoatscarl_baldwin: unfortunately yes, but I wanted to divide and conquer15:35
mesteryBut yes, I thikn that's it15:35
mesteryOK, this makes sense to me at least15:35
mesteryLets get the infra in place15:35
mesteryAnd then use it to transfer data out of neutron15:35
mesteryand not store it15:35
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carl_baldwin+1 to not storing big data in Neutron.15:35
rmoatsmestery: my next step was going to be a BP/spec that catalogued where everything is going to come from15:35
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rmoatsto see what we need to add and what is already there waiting to be harvested15:36
amotokirmoats: one nit question: we have metering-agent which not so many folks seem interested in... is it related?15:36
rmoatscarl_baldwin: I'm +max_int to not storing big data in Neutron15:36
rmoatsamotoki: I view metering-agent as orthogonal15:36
rmoatsthat (as I understand it) is aimed at collecting data for billing15:37
rmoatsand this is aimed at collecting data for operations folks15:37
rmoatsthey are similar, but not the same15:37
amotokirmoats: it is collecting traffic across routers.15:37
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amotokiokay we can go first and if there are overlapped areas we can improve it.15:38
rmoatsamotoki: and the right answer may be to reformat it into something that can go into the MIB15:38
rmoatsI'm open to reusing what's already there15:38
rmoatswell "into the MIB" was a bit strong15:38
rmoatsI meant to say "look like what the MIB expects"15:38
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amotokirmoats: sounds good to me as a first step.15:39
mesteryamotoki rmoats: ++15:39
rmoatsamotoki: that's the reason for the BP/spec - to see what can already be harvested15:39
* rmoats not interested in reinventing wheels15:39
mesteryShall we let this one proceed at this point with a solid devref as a starting point?15:39
rmoatsmestery: devref or spec?15:39
* rmoats was thinking spec, but is flexible15:39
-amotoki- is confusing again between devref and spec15:40
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mesteryThe spec is very slim15:40
mesteryThere's no API for this change15:40
mesterySo I think a devref seems appropriate to me15:40
rmoatsmestery: but there may be lots of options for implementation :)15:40
mesteryrmoats: Your job is to simplify those as much as possible and document in the devref :)15:41
rmoatsok, I can do devref then15:41
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mesteryAny other specific RFEs people want to discuss? carl_baldwin amotoki ???15:43
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rmoatsthanks, folks ...15:44
mesterythanks rmoats15:44
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mesteryLets discuss this one:15:44
openstackLaunchpad bug 1475792 in neutron "Change Neutron so that it can auto-allocate networks" [Undecided,Confirmed] - Assigned to Brian Haley (brian-haley)15:45
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1475792 in neutron "Change Neutron so that it can auto-allocate networks" [Undecided,Confirmed]15:45
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1475792 in neutron "Change Neutron so that it can auto-allocate networks" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/147579215:45
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mesteryI think this is a good start by haleyb15:46
mesteryAnd I think this covers what the nova folks are looking for15:46
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mesteryLets call this meeting now.15:48
mesteryPlease, keep reviewing the RFE bugs.15:48
amotokimestery: what is the next step for this? The goal is clear and we need to define API or others.  moving to a spec after some discussion?15:48
mesteryamotoki: Yes!15:48
mesteryLets move it to a spec since it's an API change15:48
mesteryAnd we can iterate there15:48
amotokidoes it mean we can triage it?15:49
mesteryamotoki: yes15:49
mesteryplease mark it triaged15:49
mesteryI commented in the bug as well15:49
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amotokinone from me as existing RFE bugs.15:52
mesteryThanks for attending folks!15:52
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mesteryKeep reviewing RFE bugs15:52
amotokiperhaps I need to file a rfe for neutron-ironic integration.15:52
mesteryWe'll see you next week!15:52
mesteryamotoki: ++15:52
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"15:52
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 15:52:48 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:52
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-07-21-15.00.html15:52
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-07-21-15.00.txt15:52
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-07-21-15.00.log.html15:52
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krtaylor#startmeeting third-party17:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 17:00:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:00
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openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'third_party'17:00
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krtaylorwho's here for the third party CI working group?17:00
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krtaylorhi asselin , mmedvede17:01
krtaylorasselin, thanks again for running the last meeting17:01
* krtaylor feels relaxed after vacation time off17:02
krtaylorhi patrickeast17:02
asselinyou're welcome17:02
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krtaylorI realized that I put the wrong date on the agenda, glad you all are here anyway17:03
krtaylorhere's the agenda17:03
krtaylor#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#7.2F21.2F15_1700_UTC17:03
krtaylor#topic Announcements17:03
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krtaylorI don't have any, none listed17:04
krtayloranyone have anything to quickly announce?17:04
krtaylordeadlines? news?17:04
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krtaylor#topic Common CI Vsprint17:05
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krtaylorlooks like it went well, and now 4 are done!17:05
asselinhi, yes, didn't finish, but made a lot of progess17:05
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asselinnodepool is the most challenging one because it involves changes to nodepool itself17:06
krtaylorasselin, what are you thinking for the next steps?17:06
krtaylorwant to have a second vsprint?17:06
asselinkrtaylor, not thinking about that. I think we can just do normal reviews and get it done that wat17:07
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krtaylorasselin, fair enough17:07
asselinpart of the issue is that we are too dispersed geographically for nodepool, so it's difficult to iterate17:07
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mmedvedeI had a general question on the sprint. I noticed some refactoring/move patches where not just moving things, but combining more changes in a single patch17:08
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mmedvedeI think it did slow things done, e.g. my patch (low priority) had a comment to have things changed, in comparison on how they where in system-config17:09
mmedvede#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199790/17:09
asselinmmedvede, yes, I try to limit & enforce scope, but definietly need to do better with that17:09
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krtaylorit would be good to limit the initial drop to be just the refactoring to make it work17:09
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mmedvedeasselin: ok, good to know. I wanted to do move without regression in one patch, and any improvements in a different ones17:09
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mmedvedekrtaylor: +117:10
asselinmmedvede, there are exceptions of course, but that is what we should aim for17:10
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asselinperhaps submitting follow-up patches and comment with 'done in patch#" can help17:11
mmedvedeI feel there is sometimes a push to do more than necessary in a single patch, not sure why17:11
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krtayloras long as we agree, then comments to split out work will be supported17:12
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krtaylorwhy would someone refuse a higher patch count?  :)17:13
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asselinI think we need to stand stronger on that.17:13
asselinI will add comments to that end: separate refactor from improvement patch.17:14
krtaylor#agreed Take a stronger review position on common ci patches that do more than minimal refactoring17:15
mmedvedeasselin: thank you17:15
asselinmmedvede, thanks for bringing it up17:15
krtaylorhm, not sure agreed worked, whatever17:15
krtaylorwe'll see in logs17:15
krtaylorasselin re: iterate on nodepool, not sure I understood that17:16
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asselinjust mean working throught the patch review cycle https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint17:16
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asselinthere are quite a few interelated patches17:16
asselinthose are difinitely more than a refactor17:17
asselinbut necessary to not have the nodepool.yaml file being a template17:17
asselinso it's more of an improvement followed by a refactor17:18
krtaylorso just quicker reviews to land everything in one group17:18
krtaylorI understand what you are saying17:18
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krtayloractually, that sounds like a good exercise for a vsprint, with lots of ci and infra involvement17:19
krtayloror at least a focus hours during/after an infra meeting17:19
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asselinhonestly, we got quite a bit done prior the virtual sprint, so I think we should do that by keeping reviews & testing active17:21
krtaylorasselin, your call, let us know how we can help17:21
mmedvedeasselin: any idea why this one did not merge? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/199737/17:22
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* asselin looks17:22
mmedvedemight need a re-nudge, maybe gerrit had problems at the time17:23
asselinyes, seems like it17:23
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asselinoh I see....it's depends-on is still in review17:25
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mmedvedeasselin: good catch17:25
krtayloranything else for common ci?17:26
asselini've nothing else17:26
mmedvedekrtaylor: proceed17:27
krtaylor#topic Spec to have infra host monitoring dashboard17:27
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krtaylorso this was moving well, no major problems17:27
krtaylorI learned about another dashboard17:28
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mmedvede#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/17:28
krtaylorjogo wrote lastcomment17:28
krtaylorthanks mmedvede17:28
krtaylor#link http://jogo.github.io/lastcomment/17:28
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wznoinskkrtaylor: sorry to inject it here, did you look into having nagios + nagstamon (as a desktop app instead of dashboard) ?17:29
krtaylorwznoinsk, no, although I'm not sure its a bad idea17:30
krtaylorbut it would need to be a service that infra would host17:30
krtaylorthat way, it would be available, else it would be dependent on someone privately hosting it17:31
mmedvedekrtaylor: jhesketh suggested to rename the spec files to avoid confusion, I do not think it has been addressed17:31
wznoinsknagstamon is just an app on your workstation you have it in your systray that poll nagios server (over http) for any alerts nagios server is seeing17:31
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krtaylormmedvede, I changed the topic, I didn't agree  :)  Also, we are moving the original spec...eventually17:32
wznoinskkrtaylor: anyways, we can take it offline, I've got some experience with that and really like that (over dashboards or emails)17:32
krtaylorsweston, are you around?17:32
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swestonkrtaylor: yes, sir17:33
krtaylorwznoinsk, it would mean that someone would have to install that to see the history of a system that just posted a failed comment17:33
swestonreading backlog17:33
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krtaylorwznoinsk, I'd think that a page would be easier for a dev to hit to see if a system was off in the weeds17:34
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wznoinskkrtaylor: nagstamon is just a desktop version of what you normally see on nagios dashboard(s)17:34
wznoinskyou can use nagios webpages for 'non-infra' (devs)17:34
krtaylorsweston, thanks for joining us! I had pinged you yesterday, was wondering if you had a chance to see if a patch could change projects in gerrit17:34
* asselin will be back in a few17:35
jogokrtaylor: I tried to keep lastcomment as simple as possible, it is a tiny python requests script that runs from a cron job right now17:35
swestonkrtaylor: no, unfortunately I have not had any spare time at all.  I might be able to get to it later in the week17:35
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krtaylorwznoinsk, I am certainly open to suggestions, I know that others are using nagios (we are too)17:35
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swestonkrtaylor: actually, I am getting ready to upgrade my systems again, so today or tomorrow would be a good time to test this17:36
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krtaylorsweston, thanks, let me know if you can't, but it woul dbe good to keep all the history and comments with the original spec17:36
wznoinskkrtaylor: let's talk some other time as it's go-home time for me already, I'll catch you on #openstack-infra if you don't mind17:36
mmedvedewznoinsk: nagios is generally good at monitoring multiple hosts, I am confused how it can be used to show status of third-party CIs17:36
krtaylorsweston, else, we can capture the test and include it with a txt file when it is moved to third-party-ci-tools17:37
krtaylorjogo, thanks, I do really like the layout, clean and simple17:37
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swestonkrtaylor: yes, we can consider that as a last pass option17:37
wznoinskmmedvede: nagios is powerfull you can use any script program (bash, python, perl, java or whatever you pick) to check 'a thing' for you and feed status back to nagios17:37
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krtaylorwznoinsk, thanks for coming, and let me know what you are thinking, if it provides more with its framework, it may be useful for other tasks in infra as well17:38
wznoinskmmedvede: krtaylor: I'm a huge fan of nagios so I'll sound like everything is doable in nagios, because it is in my opinion :-)17:38
mmedvedewznoinsk: I see, so you basically suggest not to write a web frontend, but reuse nagios17:39
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wznoinskkrtaylor: sure, I'll catch you in the week17:39
krtaylorwznoinsk, it is a good tool, and widely used17:39
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krtaylorwznoinsk, thanks17:39
wznoinskmmedvede: web frontend is probably not the strongest part of nagios especially for wider (than just infra) public so it may still be needed17:39
wznoinskbut the infra part should be well covered by nagios out of the box17:39
* krtaylor is trying to keep up with the different threads17:40
mmedvedewznoinsk: ok, now I am more confused. Would definitely want to learn more about what you suggest :)17:40
mmedvedewznoinsk: I think we might be talking about monitoring different things17:40
krtaylorsweston, I'll ping you tomorrow and see where you are at, I think it would help speed the infra hosting spec if it were moved17:40
jogokrtaylor: and the code is fairly compact too17:41
* asselin returns17:41
swestonkrtaylor agreed17:41
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krtaylorjogo, it would be ideal if we could combine efforts with patrickeast  and have a super simple dashboard17:42
krtaylorjogo, patrickeast - have either of you compared with the other dashboard?17:42
wznoinskmmedvede: I monitor my 3rdparty CI with a script under nagios, not sure what exactly you want to monitor, could you ping me the spec pls?17:43
patrickeastyea we’ve chatted a bit about them17:43
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mmedvedewznoinsk: this is the spec in discussion: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/194437/17:44
* krtaylor has not had the time to do a functional comparison of dashboards17:44
patrickeasti think one issue is that they are kind of targeting different audiences, so they prioritize different features/designs17:44
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patrickeastmine is more focused on someone who wants to troubleshoot a ci system and know what/where things broke17:44
jogopatrickeast: yeah, it would be possible to make two views. I think the big difference is how we collect data17:45
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mmedvedewznoinsk: this is patrickeast 's dashboard #link http://ec2-54-67-102-119.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com:5000/?project=openstack%2Fnova&user=&timeframe=24&start=&end=17:45
jogoI just use the gerrit REST API periodically, patrickeast wanted real time data so gerrit stream ... which makes things a lot more complex17:45
jogoI am happy to see any solution that is agreed upon17:45
jogoI would be more then happy to stop running lastcomment17:45
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patrickeasthaha, same boat here, i’m ok either way too17:46
patrickeasti just want *something*17:46
wznoinskmmedvede: yes, I like patrickeast's work, even if that dashboard saw day light for the first time (and it was more basic)17:46
krtaylorjogo, patrickeast thanks for your flexibility17:46
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krtaylorjogo, as patrickeast said, yours is useful too, I don't see why you'd have to stop running it, unless you wanted to17:47
wznoinskI do understand there will be different criteria you'd be scoring the CIs on (i.e.: how many times per 10 a CI failed, how many times per 10 a 3rdparty CI failed when upstream jenkins DID NOT etc.)17:47
patrickeastkrtaylor: +117:47
krtaylorbut having everyone jump in on maintaining one dashboard and improving it would be MUCH better17:48
patrickeastjogo: i think yours is actually more useful for someone who just wants to know what systems are ok for a project at a glance17:48
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patrickeastits just harder to figure out *why* they are broken17:48
patrickeastbut that doesn’t matter to 99% of the openstack devs17:48
swestonkrtaylor: +1 .  I would prefer this as well, and would rather have folks contributing to radar17:48
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wznoinskmmedvede: with more criteria and logic you want a more advanced dashboard, or easy to read dashboards 'per problem'17:48
asselinsweston has a good point17:49
krtaylorI think the most important thing is that we all agree, very quickly, on one dashboard to get the hosting spec done17:49
jogopatrickeast: right, that is exactly what I head in mind when I put it together17:49
asselinthese others are supposed to be 'temporary'17:49
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krtaylorthen we can start working on the full featured solution17:50
mmedvedewznoinsk: I want something I can use to detect anomalies in our CI compared to others. patrickeast 's scoreboard is currently sufficient for our usecase17:50
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jogopatrickeast: it wouldn't be too hard to add an option to my dashboard to list failed cases when you click something17:50
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mmedvedewznoinsk: I do not necessarily want 'automagic' detection, I just want data presented in a consumable way17:50
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krtaylorok so do we have agreement to stay with scoreboard for now? else we prob have to wait 2 weeks to see any movement17:51
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krtaylorjogo, would you be willing to move yours to third-party-ci-tools so others could contribute through the gerrit process?17:52
jogokrtaylor: no problem17:52
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mmedvedeIf we would ask infra to deploy scoreboard or lastcomment, where would puppet modules go17:53
krtaylormmedvede, its in the spec (roughly)17:53
mmedvedekrtaylor: yes, sorry17:53
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jogokrtaylor: I don't think it makes sense to have infra host a temporary solution17:53
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krtaylorjogo, actually, that was their suggestion17:54
jogoin the time we are sorting out a 'temporary' thing a final thing could be done17:54
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krtaylorthey wanted something now, and it would get all the structure in place17:54
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krtaylorthats really the catch here, we need a basic solution NOW17:55
mmedvedekrtaylor: +1 for NOW17:55
krtaylorok, well, we are running out of time for the meeting, move to email thread? or a quick decision?17:56
wznoinskmmedvede: I'm affraid that to check dashboard for all projects, all CIs in each project, scanning it once/a few times a day is taking a lot of human cycles, I'd prefer to have a check and threshold defined that lets me know17:56
krtaylorwznoinsk, it would really only be visited when a dev got a neg comment17:57
krtaylorand it would be filtered by project17:57
krtaylorjust meant to see if a system is off in the weeds or not17:57
krtaylorand for that reason, I'd choose patrickeast 's if I had to pick one today17:58
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wznoinskkrtaylor: yes, it's good for ad hoc checks17:58
krtaylorits easy to compare a systems results to everyone else that tested the same patch17:58
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krtaylorso do we agree?17:58
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krtaylorout of time17:59
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krtaylorI'll move to email thread18:00
krtaylorthanks everyone, really good meeting18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 18:00:33 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-17.00.html18:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-17.00.txt18:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-07-21-17.00.log.html18:00
stevemarcourtsey ping for ajayaa, amakarov, ayoung, breton, browne, davechen, david8hu, dolphm, dstanek, ericksonsantos, geoffarnold, gyee, henrynash, hogepodge, htruta, jamielennox, joesavak, lbragstad, lhcheng, marekd, morganfainberg, nkinder, raildo, rharwood, rodrigods, roxanaghe, samueldmq, stevemar, topol, wanghong18:00
lbragstadstevemar: yo18:00
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morganfainbergstevemar: you got this one?18:00
ayoung\me here18:01
morganfainbergor want me to?18:01
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henrynashand a fine eveing to you all18:01
* morganfainberg is around and doesn't care either way18:01
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stevemarmorganfainberg: i have another meeting at the same time, so you can do it this time :)18:01
morganfainbergsure thing18:01
morganfainberg#startmeeting Keystone18:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 18:01:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.18:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.18:01
morganfainberg#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting18:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'18:01
* ayoung needs to leave at the 1/2 hour mark18:01
morganfainbergHi everyone!18:01
morganfainbergso... lets jump right in18:02
ericksonsantosHi :)18:02
morganfainbergWelcome back from midcycle18:02
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morganfainbergtime to do non-midcycle things now18:02
morganfainberg#topic Dynamic Policies18:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Dynamic Policies (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:02
morganfainbergayoung, samueldmq: o/18:02
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samueldmqhello guys o/18:02
ayoungok,  gave a presentation last week18:02
ayounglink in am oment18:02
gyeestill digesting them lobstars18:02
henrynash(lobsters, plural ????)18:03
ayoung#LINK to git repo https://github.com/admiyo/keystone-rbac-presentation18:03
gyeehenrynash, +2!18:03
ayoung#LINK https://github.com/admiyo/keystone-rbac-presentation/raw/master/risk-assessment.pdf18:03
geoffarnold+1 (a +2 would just go to his head)18:04
ayoungI think we are making progress, but still concerned that most people don't get what we are trying to do here...please ask away if you have any questions18:04
samueldmqayoung: yes, and I'd like to ask for an offical decision on the SFE18:04
ayoungthe goal is to minimize the amount we depend on the remote services to change18:04
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ayoungmorganfainberg, that is for you to decide, or the TC?18:05
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amakarovayoung, we have some Horizon folks here interested to try to make an editor for policies18:05
samueldmqayoung: see what cores (who didn't responded to the email) think and see what morganfainberg thinks (since it's a ptl decision, as ttx said :))18:05
morganfainbergayoung: hmm?18:05
morganfainbergayoung: the SPFE?18:05
ayoungput it to a vote?18:05
geoffarnoldI think we need to develop a crisp strategy that we can share x-project (multi-cycle, inevitably)18:05
morganfainbergit's a core decision18:05
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morganfainbergi'll support the general view of the keystone-core team18:05
samueldmqmorganfainberg: ++18:05
henrynashayoung: so my view is that IF we limit our selves to making it easier for projects to source their polciy files form keystone (without any fundamental change to policy format, definitions etc.) then I support18:05
morganfainbergit's my call,but i'll leave it to the team to decide18:05
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ayounggeoffarnold, that is the goal;  need to make it understandable cross project18:06
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morganfainbergi would rather not step on the toes of those who need to review/maintain/support/look at bugs in it [if that makes sense]18:06
samueldmqhenrynash: I think that's pretty the scope to L, at least as I see it18:06
ayounghenrynash, that is exactly the intention of the SFPE18:06
gyeeayoung, I am lost, you saying changing the policy format is a precursor to dynamic policy?18:06
ayounggyee, no18:07
ayoungno change to the policy format is proposed18:07
gyeethey are two different deal18:07
geoffarnoldI'll take the strategy + motivating user stories to the ProductWG when we're ready18:07
ayoungsamueldmq, can you find the link to the SFPE email?18:07
ayounggeoffarnold, those are all in the presentation18:07
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samueldmqayoung: henrynash the bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/dynamic-policies-delivery18:08
morganfainbergayoung: if you want a vote, happy to start one18:08
gyeeyeah those changes are fairly contained18:08
samueldmqand the email ...18:08
samueldmq#link https://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg57416.html18:08
morganfainbergotherwise general consensus here works too18:08
geoffarnoldI know. Waiting on final consensus18:08
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gyeeno objection here18:08
ayoungas far as delivery, what we are propsing can be summarized like this18:08
ayoungwe make use of the endpoint policy extension we have now to associate a policy with an endpoint18:09
ayoungendpoints will fetch by endpoint id.18:09
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ayoungThe most explicit will be to set the id in the authtoken secition of the config file18:09
henrynashsamueldmq: well, at lesat one of this listed is abandoned!18:09
ayounglater, we will implement aless invasive approch;18:09
ayoungcalculate the endpoint_id from the URL18:09
bknudson"endpoints will fetch by endpoint id." -- this has to be implemented in all the other projects?18:09
samueldmqhenrynash: yes, as a consequence of what was decided on the midcycle.. we'll be fetching by endpoint_id, not by policy id18:10
henrynashayoung, samueldmq: before a vote, we need a definitive list of what BPs are included18:10
bknudsondo you feel like you've incorporated sdague's concerns?18:10
ayoungbknudson, "has to" no.  "may be" yes18:10
henrynashayoung, samueldmq: please excluded those you have abandoned18:10
samueldmqhenrynash: just this one for the dynamic delivery: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/dynamic-policies-delivery18:10
samueldmq#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/dynamic-policies-delivery18:10
samueldmqthat's all for L18:10
samueldmqhenrynash: how do I exclude that ?18:11
ayoungsamueldmq, edit the white board and remove the abandonded specs, please18:11
morganfainbergor say "(abandoned)" next to them18:11
morganfainbergsame net effect18:11
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samueldmqayoung: henrynash done!18:12
samueldmqmorganfainberg: sorry was removing :) it can be viewed as abandoned when filtering by gerrit topic18:13
morganfainbergits' fine either way18:13
morganfainbergboth work, it indicates what is active18:13
samueldmqayoung: bknudson has a question about sdague's concerns above .. ^18:14
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samueldmqany other core has any concern/question on this subject?18:14
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stevemari'm still super weary about this18:14
samueldmqso we can clarify before a vote18:14
ayoungno clue on whether sdague would approve or reject at this point...18:14
geoffarnoldstevemar weary or wary?18:14
stevemarwary :P18:14
ayounggeoffarnold, he's wary, I'mweary18:15
samueldmqstevemar: hehe I need to translate that one :p18:15
geoffarnoldayoung, srevemar I knew that ;-)18:15
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ayoungstevemar, please state your concerns18:15
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gyeestevemar, do let us know your feelings, this is also a dynamic policy therapy session18:15
samueldmqI think we need more love on this subject, what is target to L is very small, the delivery18:15
samueldmqlet's clear the points that need to, get reviews, and get it done :)18:16
morganfainberggyee: lets save therapy for another time18:16
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bknudsonI know I've had lots of time to look at the spec but I haven't yet... I wouldn't mind taking a look at it this week and then I'll vote on the spec.18:16
stevemara whole system for storage/retrieval of policies to solve the issue of inconsistent 'is_admin' roles seems like overkill18:16
bknudsonI think people are wary because we implement lots of things that other projects wind up not using18:16
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bknudsonso are other projects actually going to use this?18:16
geoffarnoldstevemar overkill for this, or overkill as an eventual goal?18:16
samueldmqbknudson: other projects don't even need to know about it, they get the policy file18:17
samueldmqbknudson: that can be modified before with the dynamic one18:17
stevemargeoffarnold: i'd prefer to just better define what is_admin is, and make sure projects adhere to that18:17
* marekd sneaks in late18:17
samueldmqbknudson: so no change on other projects for the delivery, if that's what you want to know18:17
ayoungpolicy had a store and fetch mechanism for al ong time, it just was useless18:17
bknudsoneveryone's using oslo.policy and they use that?18:17
samueldmqbknudson: yes18:17
* morganfainberg directs marekd to the open seat in the front of the room - no sneaky18:17
ayoungbknudson, not all projects have migrated from the incubated yet18:18
samueldmqbknudson: that will be optional I guess.. not a must use that18:18
stevemarjust nova and a few of the new projects18:18
gyeethis is not really about admin18:18
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gyeeadmin is deployment-specific18:18
geoffarnoldstevemar that's a good short term goal. as we discussed last week, is_admin needs to disappear long term, except for break-glass18:18
gyeeit just some role with some capabilities18:18
samueldmqbknudson: so that goes in the middleware/oslo config sections18:18
ayoungstoarge is just the first step.  The goal is to be able to link the polices and the role assignments into a coherent mechanism18:18
ayoungso...yeah, each step is going to seem small, cuz, you know, baby steps18:18
gyeethis is really about flexibility in authorization management18:18
ayoungand things that are understandable, and valuable in and of themselves18:18
bknudsonare you planning to put together a gate job that uses it?18:18
henrynashhere’s the fundamental question (imho): are the eventual solutions to policy one that require us to recommend that cloud providers top using the tradiational methods of policy distribution (e.g. chef etc.) and instead use keystone as a central repository of policy18:19
bknudsonchanging devstack to use it?18:19
bknudsonfunctional tests?18:19
morganfainberghenrynash: good question18:19
henrynash(provuders stop…)18:19
samueldmqbknudson: yeah I can do it18:19
ayoungbknudson, yes, yes, and yes.18:19
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gyeehenrynash, this is same mechanism as domain backend in sql18:20
stevemarcould it live as it's own project until all the baby steps are done? or as a feature branch?18:20
samueldmqayoung: see henrynash's question .. if we do that, we are advising them to do so, i.e use keystone for the distribution instead of CMS18:20
ayoungstevemar, I'd probably just give up in frustration if we tried18:20
henrynashif we think yes to my question, then what is being roposed seems a godo second step (we already mad teh first by having the APIs to allow such a centralized repository)18:20
morganfainbergok 4 more mins on this topic18:21
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morganfainbergthen we either vote or use the spec as the vote18:21
ayoungstevemar, its like;  something major is broken here.  Keystone itslef is a security nightmare, and we are afraid of fixing it.  I'm fine with someone suggesting an alternative approach tio fixing it, but not with postponing the fixes18:21
ayoungthings take for-ever in Keystone, and if we say "we are afraid of this"  we will never fix it18:22
ayoungso...speak up.  how do we fix keystone?18:22
morganfainbergayoung: this, however, is *not* a keystone is a security nightmare. this is a policy is a security nightmare18:22
dstanekI like the idea of a separate branch/repo for this to prove it out18:22
morganfainbergwe can fix keystone policy - that really is a lot less difficult18:22
gyeea quick hack would be to patchup the individual policy.json file :)18:22
gyeejust saying18:22
gyeeif we only care about the admin problem18:22
morganfainbergfixing policy everywhere is hard18:22
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ayoungmorganfainberg, can we?  PLease explain how.18:23
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ayounggyee, if I thought we could address this by fixing the individual policy files, I'd go for it18:23
morganfainbergayoung: simple - we change the loading params, make a new default, change devstack, and tell people the old single admin/member policy is dead with a simple migration to a "real" policy. that isn't hard to sell18:23
morganfainbergayoung: fixing is_admin *everywhere* is hard18:23
stevemarayoung: if it were a nightmare we'd have operators desperately asking us for it. i'm hearing a "yeah, it's cool"18:23
geoffarnoldfixing policy everywhere is hard, but it's less hard if we provide an easy-to-adopt framework which addresses the issues18:24
gyeeayoung, like defining a nova_admin role?18:24
morganfainbergjust trying to avoid the "keystone is broken" statements, keystone is mildly broken - but it's hard to fix everything everywhere - we know this.18:24
ayounggyee, namespaced roles have been suggested before...are you saying we should prioritize that?18:24
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gyeeayoung, we could18:25
gyeebut that's not "dynamic"18:25
gyeebut would get us pass the global admin problem18:25
henrynashayoung: gyee is suggesting somthig simpler I think, jsut work with the prpjects so the don’t call their “own” admin role “admin”18:25
lbragstadhenrynash: ++18:25
ayounghenrynash, who gets to assigne that role?18:25
ayoungwhat scope is it enforced on?18:25
ayoungand how is that enforcement done?18:26
gyeeenforcement is still the same18:26
ayounggyee, and that is policy, right?18:26
morganfainbergok since ayoung needs to go in 4...18:26
henrynashayoung: and second, we change oslo.policy so we can put comments in policy.json, create some kick-ass samples (e.g. give one to Nova and Glance to show them how)18:26
stevemaralso, oslo.policy is already dynamic, edit a file and the next request will use it18:26
gyeeis_admin: role:admin or role:nova_admin18:26
ayounggyee, it needs to be scoped18:26
morganfainbergare we voting on the spfe? or are we aiming for a different tack (get namespaced roles?)?18:27
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morganfainbergoor using the spec as a vote?18:27
gyeejust assign the nova_admin role to user for a given project18:27
morganfainbergor something totally different?18:27
ayoungWe can distribute the mechanism by some other form.  The  problem is then it becomes "config"18:28
ayoungand not "data"18:28
geoffarnoldthe state of this discussion (and last week) suggests that whatever we're talking about it isn't ready for a vote yet18:28
samueldmqmorganfainberg: I think we should vote.. if we don't get enough yeses, that may mean we should reprioritize, or try anythingelse ?18:28
ayoungand the rules change for the operators.18:28
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geoffarnoldso just spfe18:28
gyeeto maintain backward compatibility, we roll a small middleware to translate nova_admin to admin at nova api pipeline18:28
ayounggyee, gah!18:28
morganfainbergayoung: your call since it's your initiative - vote, defer, something else?18:28
henrynashgyee: no (even from me!)18:28
gyeelike I said, that's a simple hack to solve the global adminness issue18:29
ayoungjust on the distro mechanism18:29
gyeebut not for dynamic policy18:29
ayoungit is opt in...won;'t be enabled until the user wants it18:29
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henrynashayoung: is this classed as experimental?18:29
morganfainberg#startvote Dynamic Policy SPFE Acceptance? accept, deny, defer18:29
openstackBegin voting on: Dynamic Policy SPFE Acceptance? Valid vote options are accept, deny, defer.18:29
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.18:29
bknudson#vote defer18:29
gyee#vote accept18:30
morganfainbergdefer would be either next meeting or use spec scoring as the vote18:30
ayounghenrynash, so one is cahce headers...I see no need to defer or make experimental18:30
ayoungthe other is for middleware18:30
breton#vote defer18:30
ayoung#vote accept18:30
amakarov#vote defer18:30
samueldmq#vote accept18:30
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ayounghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/134655/  is the thing we are really voting on....the other is just better HTTP coding18:30
* morganfainberg pokes stevemar18:31
henrynash#vote accept18:31
samueldmqmorganfainberg: if we defer, people should put more love on that, we'll be defering because they don't know enough about it18:31
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geoffarnold(this is just cores, right?)18:31
stevemarmorganfainberg: i'm thinking18:31
morganfainberggeoffarnold: feel free to vote18:31
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stevemar#vote defer18:31
gyeegeoffarnold, this is democracy18:31
morganfainberggeoffarnold: i'll weight to cores if it's a tie18:31
geoffarnold#vote accept18:31
marekd#vote accept18:31
lbragstad#vote defer18:31
ayoungso, before we close the vote, let's be clear on what we are voting on18:31
ayounga defer vote means we will make no progress on dynamic policy this release18:32
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gyee#vote for progress18:32
openstackgyee: for progress is not a valid option. Valid options are accept, deny, defer.18:32
breton> defer would be either next meeting or use spec scoring as the vote18:32
dstanek#vote defer18:32
ayoungthis was the absolute smallest piece of it we could make happen.18:32
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* morganfainberg cant remember18:33
openstackdefer (6): lbragstad, bknudson, dstanek, amakarov, breton, stevemar18:33
openstackaccept (6): gyee, ayoung, marekd, geoffarnold, samueldmq, henrynash18:33
gyeeendvote first18:33
samueldmqmorganfainberg: ^ showvote ;)18:33
morganfainbergreally i'm going to have to be the tie breaker?18:34
bknudsonit's up to morganfainberg18:34
bretonok, love me now18:34
breton#vote accept18:34
bknudsonnobody voted no, so I'm fine with it either way18:34
gyeebreton, heh18:34
morganfainbergwhere is lbragstad, dolphm, and jamielennox?18:34
bknudsonthe only way it could go is towards accept at this point18:34
lbragstadI already voted18:34
marekdmorganfainberg: lbragstad voted18:34
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ayoungjamielennox is probably asleep.  He's been battling SSL issues until the wee hours of the morning18:35
gyeelbragstad, hi18:35
ayoungI need to go18:35
morganfainbergand even split of cores also18:35
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dolphmmorganfainberg: o/18:35
bknudsonswitch to TLS18:35
openstackdefer (5): lbragstad, bknudson, dstanek, amakarov, stevemar18:35
openstackaccept (7): gyee, ayoung, marekd, geoffarnold, samueldmq, henrynash, breton18:35
morganfainbergdolphm: ^^ vote - and views?18:35
dolphmoh crap meeting lol18:35
* morganfainberg is trying to *not* be the tie breakers here18:35
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dolphm#vote defer18:36
ayoungI'll check the results later18:36
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morganfainberg#vote defer18:36
openstackVoted on "Dynamic Policy SPFE Acceptance?" Results are18:36
openstackdefer (7): lbragstad, morganfainberg, bknudson, dstanek, dolphm, amakarov, stevemar18:36
openstackaccept (7): gyee, ayoung, marekd, geoffarnold, samueldmq, henrynash, breton18:36
bknudsonthis is impossible18:37
morganfainbergeven split - but more cores on defer18:37
morganfainbergso we will go with defer.18:37
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samueldmqmorganfainberg: next meeting ? so we can vote again even if people don't look at the specs18:37
morganfainbergplease vote on the spec - score it18:37
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morganfainberg#action Keystone Cores - review the SPFE and Dynamic policy spec(s) specifically for liberty18:37
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morganfainbergi expect to have scores on the specs by next meeting18:37
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morganfainbergif you don't... we'll approve it and you're stuck with it18:38
morganfainbergsince defer is closer to accept than deny18:38
morganfainbergok moving on18:39
morganfainberg#topic Moving role assignment inheritance (OS-INHERIT) to core18:39
*** openstack changes topic to "Moving role assignment inheritance (OS-INHERIT) to core (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:39
morganfainberghenrynash: o/18:39
henrynashok, so a spec for this is here:  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/200434/18:39
henrynash#link  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/200434/18:39
morganfainbergfwiw - I'm for this.18:40
bknudsonI think we agreed we're moving things from extensions already18:40
henrynashLiek to get people’s views on pushing this in….as I say, the only wrinke is using the change of API (i.e. extension -> core) to provide new inheritance rules (that we think are mosre suitable to generalized project hierachies)18:40
morganfainbergbknudson: this is the API change to change how inheritence works we're considering when moving18:40
morganfainbergbknudson: since it wont be OS-INHERIT anymore18:41
bknudsonhas to be deprecated18:41
bknudsonthen we can remove it in v418:41
morganfainbergOS-INHERIT will maintain the old and be deprecated18:41
henrynashbknudson: the old OS-INHERIT will depreacted, but support for 4 cycles in case anyone wants the old sematics18:41
morganfainbergbut the non-deprecated/new way will be the new inheritence model18:41
morganfainberghenrynash: at least 4.. we may not remove before v418:41
* morganfainberg kicks that can waaaaay down the line18:42
henrynashmorganfainberg: agreed18:42
morganfainbergif there are concerns about this change - please say so now.18:42
bknudsonI haven't looked at all the changes but can't think of a reason to not do it.18:42
gyeesame here18:42
gyeedefer to next week :)18:42
geoffarnoldno concerns18:43
morganfainberggyee: no defer18:43
dstanekI only browsed the change, but it looked OK18:43
morganfainbergthis one is a yes or no18:43
morganfainberg#startvote Accept SPFE for os-inherit behavior change when moved to core (old API/behavior deprecated)? yes, no18:43
samueldmqhenrynash: just a question18:43
openstackBegin voting on: Accept SPFE for os-inherit behavior change when moved to core (old API/behavior deprecated)? Valid vote options are yes, no.18:43
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.18:43
morganfainberg#vote yes18:44
samueldmqhenrynash: so we'll be proposing a new inheritance api ?18:44
gyeeonly think I don't like is "GET /projects/{project_id)/groups/{group_id}/roles/inherited"18:44
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samueldmqhenrynash: or just moving the old one ?18:44
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bknudson#vote yes18:44
morganfainbergsamueldmq: it'll be rolled into assignment directly18:44
raildo#vote yes18:44
geoffarnold#vote yes18:44
marekd#vote yes18:44
htruta#vote yes18:44
lbragstad#vote yes18:44
morganfainbergsamueldmq: OS-INHERIT will be deprecated, but continue on18:44
dstanek#vote yes18:44
morganfainbergsame behavior18:44
openstackyes (8): lbragstad, morganfainberg, bknudson, marekd, geoffarnold, dstanek, htruta, raildo18:44
samueldmqI was just thinking about fixing the beharvior of inherited in the new api18:44
lhcheng#vote yes18:45
samueldmqapplying to the node itself18:45
morganfainbergsamueldmq: can't change behavior18:45
henrynashsamueldmq: that’s what we are doing!18:45
morganfainbergin the old api18:45
samueldmqmorganfainberg: k but we can in the new18:45
samueldmqhenrynash: ^18:45
morganfainbergsamueldmq: yes and that is the plan :)18:45
samueldmq#vote YES18:45
openstackVoted on "Accept SPFE for os-inherit behavior change when moved to core (old API/behavior deprecated)?" Results are18:45
openstackyes (10): lbragstad, morganfainberg, lhcheng, bknudson, marekd, geoffarnold, dstanek, htruta, samueldmq, raildo18:45
morganfainberghenrynash: have at.18:46
morganfainbergplease reference this meeting irc-log in the bp18:46
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henrynashwill do18:46
morganfainbergnext topic18:46
morganfainberg#topic  Clarifying how domain_id, parent_id and is_domain are used in project hierarchies18:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Clarifying how domain_id, parent_id and is_domain are used in project hierarchies (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:46
morganfainberghenrynash: you again18:46
morganfainbergthis should also be quick18:46
henrynashok, so this is mainly clarifying in teh API spec how we use these three things18:46
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henrynashteh wrinle in this one...18:47
* morganfainberg is fine with this one.18:47
henrynash…is that it clarifies that you can use parent_id on proejct creation to implicitely place the project in the hierarchy and hence what domain it is on18:47
henrynash(it is in)18:47
morganfainbergbig +218:48
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htrutawe're making domain_id optional18:48
morganfainberghtruta: only if you provide a parent_id18:48
morganfainbergsince a parent_id implies a domain_id18:48
samueldmqmorganfainberg: ++18:48
morganfainbergminor usability improvement18:49
morganfainbergand doesn't break any api compat18:49
htrutawhat should happen if we pass domain_id but no parent?18:49
morganfainberghtruta: ends up as a child of that domain18:49
morganfainbergparent_id = domain there18:49
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henrynashhtruta: then the project is placed as a child of the project acting as that domain18:49
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htrutahenrynash, morganfainberg... ok18:49
htrutamakes sense18:50
morganfainbergany concerns?18:50
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htrutamorganfainberg: I'm fine with this18:50
morganfainbergplease review the spec and score/approve/etc18:50
morganfainbergnext topic18:51
morganfainberg#topic Making project.domain_id immutable18:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Making project.domain_id immutable (Meeting topic: Keystone)"18:51
morganfainbergisn't this already the case?18:51
morganfainbergi mean defaults to be this way18:51
htrutajust following this structure, we might not be able to change domain_id18:51
bknudsonI think it's an option18:51
morganfainbergbknudson: yeah its an option18:51
morganfainbergbut we default to immutable18:51
henrynashmorganfainberg: not sure about that, since we used to allow it!18:52
morganfainbergand if anyone complains about security by toggling that i'm going to snicker and tell them to stop allowing it18:52
htrutaI guess the default value is True18:52
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htrutaI think we can't allow change domain_id at all18:52
morganfainberghtruta: yeah it defaults to immutable18:52
htrutafor projects18:52
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morganfainberghtruta: we're going to need to leave the option18:52
htrutaonce we'll be always changing the parent_id18:52
geoffarnoldwhat are the consequences of being not immutable?18:52
htrutamight break somethings in the hierarchy18:52
bknudsonwe can deprecate mutable.18:52
morganfainbergbut if anyone says "i did this" i'm going to point them at the CVE18:53
morganfainbergthat we closed with that option18:53
morganfainbergbknudson: ++ we should deprecate the option for removal18:53
morganfainbergsee who complains.18:53
raildogeoffarnold: we probably will have problems with nested quotas, or something like that18:53
morganfainbergi don't think *anyone* uses that option18:53
htrutageoffarnold: in HMT, we converged to a consensus, where we decided not to change the parent_id of a project18:53
morganfainbergraildo: not only that lots of security issues18:53
raildomorganfainberg: ++18:53
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morganfainbergit's why we made it an option and broke API compat to close the gap [default to immutable][18:54
htrutamorganfainberg, the option is for proejcts, users and groups18:54
htrutamy intention was only making it immutable to projects18:54
morganfainberghtruta: we should deprecate the option for removal across the board18:54
morganfainbergdon't remove it, just do the deprecate_for_removal=True18:54
htrutamorganfainberg: no sure if I get your point18:55
morganfainbergwe can remove it down the line18:55
morganfainberghtruta: look at the options in keystone.common.config, there is an option you can pass to it18:55
morganfainberghtruta: it marks the option as deprecated for removal18:55
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morganfainberghtruta: we will deprecate this option across the board - it really is a security risk to have anyone enble it18:55
henrynashhtruta: to protect the hierarchy, we could error if someone tries to chaneg the domain for a project that is anyting more than a 2 level hierarchy (i.e. domain-.project)18:56
bknudsonif it should be immutable then there should also be a warning if it is mutable.18:56
morganfainbergif someone does enable it and gets pwnd, my answer will be to say "didn't you read the help? it says this is a massive security hole"18:56
htrutabknudson: ++18:56
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morganfainbergbknudson: fair enough18:56
morganfainberghtruta: so in short - yeah i'm fine with moving towards truly immutable domain_id across the board18:57
morganfainbergsounds like we also need a warning added if that option is flipped from default18:57
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bknudsonif there was some situation where we wanted to not support renaming in whatever situation then that would be fine with me.18:57
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bknudson"renaming" -> "changing domain"18:57
morganfainbergbknudson: ++18:58
htrutamorganfainberg: do you plan to make it immutable to users and groups as well?18:58
morganfainberghtruta: yes please do it across the board with your change18:58
gyeerenaming should be allowed18:58
morganfainberggyee: change_domain_id of <resource>18:58
morganfainbergnot "rename"18:58
htrutamorganfainberg: ok18:58
htrutado we need a spec?18:58
geoffarnold1 min18:58
bknudsonbp or wishlist bug would be fine18:59
morganfainberghtruta: should be a very simple change - mark option as deprecated for removal, make sure we have a warning if it is toggled18:59
morganfainberghtruta: wishlist bug please18:59
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htrutamorganfainberg, bknudson: cool18:59
morganfainbergand we're done18:59
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:59
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 18:59:51 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:59
morganfainbergthanks everyone18:59
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-21-18.01.html18:59
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-21-18.01.txt18:59
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-07-21-18.01.log.html18:59
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morganfainbergwith 2 seconds to spare...19:00
dolphmhenrynash: ping me when you have an update on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/200624 -- i'd love to +219:00
* morganfainberg looks around at -infra folks19:00
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pleia2we'll trickle in eventually :)19:00
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jeblairare infra folks around?19:01
pleia2oscon wifi, woo19:01
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morganfainbergpleia2: the wifis theeeeeee wiiiiifiiiiiiiiss /stops channeling the hunchback19:01
* fungi has forsaken oscon wifi for cellular modem19:01
* jeblair discovers that the ridge on the top of a model-m is for holding chopsticks19:01
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morganfainbergjeblair: ooh nice data point19:02
fungijeblair: THAT'S why it's there. now i know what to do with mine19:02
jeblair#startmeeting infra19:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 19:02:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'infra'19:02
jeblair#link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting19:02
jeblair#link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-14-19.02.html19:02
jeblair#topic Specs approval19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
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jeblair#topic Specs approval: Host trystack.o.o site19:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs approval: Host trystack.o.o site (Meeting topic: infra)"19:02
jeblair#link host trystack.o.o site spec https://review.openstack.org/19509819:02
jeblair#info host trystack.o.o site spec was approved19:02
jeblairer, sorry i forgot to push the aprv button on this until today19:03
jeblairbut it's merged, and specs.o.o will update when we get a node19:03
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jeblairi think this is a bad week to schedule renames with so many folks afk19:04
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jeblairare there any priority-effort related things we should talk about that didn't make the agenda?19:05
funginone spring to mind19:05
jeblair#topic Puppet-httpd replacement of puppet-apache (pabelanger/nibalizer)19:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Puppet-httpd replacement of puppet-apache (pabelanger/nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)"19:06
nibalizerso paul has made most if not all of these patches19:06
nibalizerim shy to approve them19:06
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nibalizersince it has the potential to be disruptive19:06
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pabelangerfor the most part, our puppet apply testing looks good19:07
nibalizerim wondering how we should go about landing it19:07
fungipabelanger: thanks for working on those!19:07
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pabelangerbut I agree, we should try and merge all in same window19:07
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fungiis there a review topic they're all under?19:08
jeblairthis is moving from the old version of puppet-apache to our fork, right?19:08
nibalizerim also nervous about lettig these changes age too much and get conflicts etc19:08
nibalizerjeblair: correct19:08
pabelangerfungi: puppet-httpd19:08
fungipabelanger: thanks19:08
jeblairthey _should_ be noops, right?19:08
nibalizerjeblair: yes19:09
jeblairhave we landed any of them yet?19:09
nibalizerpabelanger: the top of the stack doesnt remove the apache module any more right?19:09
pabelangerjeblair: I believe a some have been merged19:09
pabelangerlet me find one19:09
fungi#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:puppet-httpd,n,z19:09
pabelangernibalizer: right19:09
jeblairlooks like etherpad has?19:10
pabelangerjeblair: yup19:10
mmedvedepabelanger: tangential - I have noticed you use fully qualified 'include ::<class>' on a few patches. Is that a new recommended way to do includes? or necessity for puppet-httpd. I want to know as I was asked to use same style on one of my patches.19:10
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jeblairhuh, that was random, wonder why i approved only that one.  ;)19:10
crinklemmedvede: yes that is preferred19:11
pabelangermmedvede: Ya, once we get our puppet-4 gates going, you'll need ::<class>19:11
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mmedvedecrinkle: pabelanger: thank you19:11
jeblairi think with the apply testing and at least one demonstrated success, we can probably approve them unscheduled.  does that work, or would folks prefer to batch them on friday?19:12
* anteaya has no opinion19:12
clarkbunscheduled wfm as long as the approver is able to watch that service19:13
nibalizerya, agree with clark19:13
pabelangerI can be around when ever it happens, but agree our puppet-apply testing coverged everything19:13
fungibut _do_ keep an eye on puppetboard.o.o after approving, _please_19:14
fungithen they can at least be reverted if they cause issues19:14
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pabelangerfeel free to ping me if any issues come up, I can look into the puppet side19:14
jeblairokay cool, approve at will, and soon, then :)19:14
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jeblair#topic Open discussion19:15
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)"19:15
fungiwho's at oscon? pleia2 and i are at a table in the "e" area19:16
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pabelangerI'd like to talk about fedora22 dibs. For the most part, ianw has done great work getting diskimage-builder updated for it.19:16
clarkbI am still at home but will likely wander over later today19:16
jeblairdrink a beer for me19:16
pabelangerI have some puppet chances in our modules that could use some feedback19:16
fungijeblair: i already have, but i'll repeat the exercise19:16
jeblairfungi: as many as it takes :)19:16
AJaegerfungi: Take some extra for me ;)19:17
fungiyou got it19:17
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clarkbpabelanger is there a topic to review?19:17
* anteaya is at the nova mid-cycle19:17
clarkband is the bulk of the work making our puppet v4 compat?19:17
pabelangerclarkb: I can use fedora-2219:17
pabelangerclarkb: well, for this we really only need changes to puppet-ntp and puppet-jenkins19:18
fungiclarkb: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+topic:puppet-httpd,n,z19:18
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fungioh, i guess he meant aside from those19:18
jeblairyeah, and hopefully we can further reduce/eliminate puppet use on test nodes, but that's later19:18
pabelangerbut ya, I also wanted to talk about the puppet-4 effort that crinkle is doing, and syncing Gemfile / Rakefiles across our modules.19:18
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pabelangerIf people don't mind the automatation, I want to do something like https://review.openstack.org/#/c/204172/ for all our puppet infra modules19:19
nibalizerfungi: pleia2 I'm around pdx but won't be osconning until tomorrow19:19
pabelangershould help keep them in sync for our gate checks19:19
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clarkbsyncing gemfiles?19:19
fungipabelanger: speaking of dib and rpm-based platforms, i would love some way to turn on retaining the package cache in the yum element, if you feel like hacking on that. if not, i'll likely get to it in the next week, but right now we're not actually pre-caching any packages on those platforms19:19
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nibalizerya something simple to keep the extra bits in the modules synced is ++19:19
jeblairpabelanger: yeah, i'm hoping that after the initial effort, we don't see a lot of churn here19:20
clarkbdont these files never change?19:20
fungii _think_ we're caching debs now that my change merged over the weekend, but haven't checked back in on an image to confirm19:20
pabelangerclarkb: they are changing now, for our puppet-4 support19:20
jeblairclarkb: i think they are changing a bit right now as we enable puppet4 stuff19:20
nibalizerclarkb: if we add a new lint-plugin thats a line in our gemfile19:20
crinklethey do change sometimes, especially if we need to emergency-pin a gem in the gemfile19:20
jeblairbut after that's done, i think it would be great if they stopped changing :)19:20
clarkbI see19:20
pabelangerfungi: sure, I can look into it.  Any info about how you want it to look like works for me19:20
jeblairif they keep changing, we may want to see if we could do something like 'hacking'19:20
fungipabelanger: something like the envvar toggle that's implemented in the dpkg element19:21
clarkbI thibk that is what the commit message should say then19:21
clarkbrather than "syncing"19:21
jeblairwhere there is something where we control the release, and that something depends on the rest19:21
fungipabelanger: a lot of it will be up to what the dib reviewers are willing to accept though19:21
crinklei think my preference would be not to automate until it becomes clear that these files are changing at an inconvenient pace19:21
pabelangerfungi: okay, I can start looking into it.  Expect some more questions from me about it19:22
clarkbcrinkle +119:22
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fungipabelanger: sure, and if it gets too black magic don't worry about it for now. i'll likely take a stab at it after i'm home from oscon19:22
pabelangerokay, so in general people are okay with the sync of the files. If ran locally, then decide the future of the process19:22
nibalizerI would like some assurance that the files are identical in all the modules19:23
nibalizerbut I don't care about the mechanism19:23
pabelangerYa, that is my main reasoning too19:23
* crinkle afk but preference against automation until later is my stance19:23
pabelangerto insure we gate the same way for all our puppet modules19:23
nibalizerwell its easy to write a test that just makes sure all the Gemfile, Rakefile md5s are the same19:23
nibalizeri guess that would prevent you from landing a change to one though19:24
* nibalizer shrug, not that big of a deal19:24
clarkbit seems like massive overkill for a problem we havent had19:24
pabelangerto be fair, we've never needed Gemfiles before19:24
nibalizerwell it is really annoying when two modules have different lint flags turned on19:24
nibalizerthats a Rakefile thing, but its the same principle19:25
clarkbwe make them match now. then dont change them19:25
nibalizerbut yea we don't have that problem juts yet19:25
clarkbthat should be sufficiemr19:25
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pabelangerwell, if we need to add new lint checks, then it has to change. Unless we centralize our lint checks outside of the module19:25
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jeblairgood motivation to avoid frequently adding new lint checks :)19:26
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pabelangerYa, only if puppet didn't introduce breaking changes between releases :D19:27
jesusaurusi think it would be good to enforce some sort of consistency in the tests across the puppet modules19:27
jeblairyeah, i don't think anyone is arguing that we should be inconsistent19:28
pabelangerthis issue is really driving the sync: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/202884/19:28
jeblairjust that a lot of automation in the area is not necessary at the moment19:28
pabelangersince puppet 4 breaks on version checks now19:28
jeblairso, let's stick with pabelanger's manual sync as we work through the puppet4 thing, and if it's a problem after that is complete, look into it further19:28
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jeblairanything else?19:30
* anteaya has nothing else19:31
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fungiall set here19:31
pleia2zanata testing is continuing at a good pace, good support from carlos at zanata19:31
anteayapleia2: yay19:31
pleia2that's all really, happy over here19:31
anteayapleia2: wooooo19:31
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AJaegerAnd StevenK is working nicely on scripts!19:32
anteayayay StevenK19:32
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asselinfor common-ci (downstream-puppet) we just have nodepool & a sample 3rd party script to tie them all together. Almost there! https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint19:33
anteayayay asselin19:34
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anteaya#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/common-ci-sprint19:34
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jeblaircool, i'm going to wrap it up for this week and let oscon folks get back to their beer19:35
jeblairthanks everyone!19:35
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"19:35
* ttx lurks while lunching19:35
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 19:35:30 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)19:35
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-21-19.02.html19:35
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-21-19.02.txt19:35
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-07-21-19.02.log.html19:35
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* med_ wonders if there is a meeting about to start herein.19:59
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ttxAnyone here for the TC meeting ?20:00
* ttx is having lunch in parallel, crazy days20:00
med_I think NOVA mid-cycle was considering joining20:00
* med_ is in Rochester20:00
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ttxrussellb, annegentle, lifeless, mordred, flaper87, dtroyer, markmcclain, sdague: around ?20:00
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ttxand that makes quorum20:01
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ttx#startmeeting tc20:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 20:01:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"20:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'20:01
ttxOK... here is our agenda for today:20:01
ttx#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee20:01
sdaguelifeless is here in room as well, it's break in nova meetup, he'll get to a keyboard20:01
ttx#topic Add the "OpenStack UX" Project20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Add the "OpenStack UX" Project (Meeting topic: tc)"20:02
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ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19976820:02
ttxLooks like this one is pretty close now, still missing a couple approvals20:02
* ttx checks current state20:02
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ttxand bites at that chicken skewer at the same time20:02
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ttxyeah, still a few short20:02
ttxAny last-minute question ?20:03
ttxdoubt ? uncertainty ?20:03
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sdagueI think it's worth a try now that it doesn't have a confusing name20:03
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ttxstill missing >=120:04
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ttxif no question and novote, let's postpone it20:04
ttxah, 7 now20:04
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ttxif no more question I'll approve it now20:04
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ttx... is silence a yes ?20:05
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jeblairyes :)20:05
russellbthis group seems pretty happy to express disagreement, i wouldn't worry about that!20:06
ttxalright, let's see if this can merge with curent state of repo20:06
russellbsilence == passive agreement20:06
ttx#topic Add Stackforge Retirement resolution20:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Add Stackforge Retirement resolution (Meeting topic: tc)"20:06
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/19201620:06
ttxWe had good discussion and progress on this one. I posted my last concern as a comment earlier today.20:06
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ttxIt's about ripping out the "stackforge" name and the confusion it may cause in our wider community20:06
ttxOn one hand it's true that since the requirements change (and the name would no longer be used in the git repo prefix) it's our occasion to change it and drop the baggage20:06
PietSorry I'm late...20:07
ttxOn the other I think we can technically have stackforge things under openstack/* git repo prefix, beef up the requirements and *still* call the idea stackforge20:07
ttxPiet: you're in !20:07
ttxand not forcing people to learn a new "experimental" concept20:07
PietThank you for your support!20:07
ttxbut maybe OI'm overthinking this... Anyone else with same concern ?20:07
jeblairthat's a good point, and i gave it a good thinking about, but i also think it would be more confusing to keep it.... it actually adds one more thing to the giant pile of things people think stackforge is20:07
sdagueyeh, it seems more confusing to keep it honestly20:07
annegent_Piet were you able to address Diana's concerns20:07
ttxI'm also not sure "experimental" is the right term to describe it tbh. Absence of maturity is not the only reason to be in stackforge.20:08
sdaguebecause it will mean something different to people that were here before the change, then those after20:08
anteayacan you outline the confusion around the name stackforge?20:08
ttxand there is no "experimental" requirement in the experimental equirements20:08
annegent_(sorry all, super slow wifi)20:08
anteayaof all the things we have confusion around, I had been feeling stackforge wasn't one of them20:08
ttxanteaya: is that a question for me ?20:08
jeblairttx: well, i'm interesting in projects becoming openstack projects under the big tent; the tc said "we need a place for experimental projects" so i added that.20:08
dhellmannretiring the name is a good idea, but I see ttx's point about "experimental"20:08
anteayathe room20:08
jeblairttx: i honestly don't know that i'm particularly interested in providing hosting for projects that don't want to be part of openstack in some way.20:09
jgriffithannegent_: i think the suggestion of confusion is keeping it and changing the definition of it20:09
ttxanteaya: I agree that stackforge is a known quantity and we are about to force people through a new concept (again)20:09
PietHi, Anne. We addressed the concerns internally.   I believe at least some of her comments with about internal process20:09
jgriffithOops.. anteaya20:09
ttxjeblair: ok, so that's just forward-looking20:09
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anteayawhat is redefined for it20:09
sdaguejeblair: so... test case, gerrit-dash-creator is that a thing that should just move to github under this model?20:09
ttxjeblair: there are projects in stackforge right now that are not really experimental20:09
jeblairsdague: no, it's totally in service of openstack20:09
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anteayathe namespace would be changed but the not under the tc governace would remain the same20:09
sdaguejeblair: ok, would it get flagged experimental?20:10
anteayattx: agreed, for instance stacktach20:10
jeblairsdague: if it wants to be?  but it could also join openstack-infra if it wanted.20:10
jgriffithanteaya: true, but the introduction of big-tent and experimental is what I believe some are concerned about.  FTR, I'm not one of those, so I'm just trying to express what I've interpreted here20:10
anteayawhich I believe is happy under stackforge20:10
med_puppet-openstack is under stackforge.20:10
anteayajgriffith: thank you20:11
med_Not sure it's "experimental" more of a perpetual WIP20:11
lifelessoh hi20:11
lifelessare we doing this? cool.20:11
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ttxmed_: it's being moved over since the project team was accepted.20:11
* med_ thought lifeless sat somewhere else or would have fetched.20:11
lifelesswe really can't hold the nova meetup to not do anything for an hour20:12
lifelessso, I'm going to focus on the nova meetup again - we're starting up20:12
ttxso in summary I think we have nailed down the intention now, but we need to figure out the branding/naming20:12
lifelessif you need me, get someone in the room here to shout20:12
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ttxbecause that's something we'll have to communicate to the wider community as a ting, we can't really figure that out in steps20:12
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ttxjeblair: what's the path forward for a project like stacktach, which is basically under stackforge to avoid the TC governance and rules ?20:13
ttxnot because it's experimental20:13
ttxnot because it's not really about openstack20:13
ttxshould it becmoe "experimental" ?20:14
zanebit is kind of experimental, isn't it?20:14
ttxsome say ess than ceilometer20:14
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dhellmannI think we should reserve that status for projects that intend some day to become official20:14
russellbi think experimental should be things that intend to become not experimental20:14
russellbin terms of governance20:14
dhellmannI'm not sure stacktach fits that20:14
jeblairwhy wouldn't they?20:15
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zanebI thought that's why they wanted to avoid the TC rules (because they were experimenting & wanted to move faster)20:15
russellbsounds like a "find another home" situation if the project really didn't intend to become official for whatever reason20:15
jeblairthe barrier is quite low now.20:15
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ttxjeblair: so the answer is... get in or get on the highway ?20:15
jeblairi don't think the tc is very effective at slowing projects down...20:15
jeblairttx: i think the answer is, it depends on the project.20:15
jeblairwe're just speculating about stacktach's motives20:16
jeblairso many projects are on stackforge because they want to be part of our community, and we have now made it easy to be part of our community20:16
sdagueyeh, I don't personally feel like openstack needs to sign up for free gerrit + ci hosting for any random thing. It's ok if some amount of stackforge doesn't fit, and needs to find a new home.20:16
dhellmannok, but I think the point isn't about that one project, it's trying to identify what cases might come up and make sure the message is clear for all of those cases20:16
jeblairi honestly doubt that whatever drove stacktach to think that stackforge was the right place for them still applies20:16
anteayaI had thought that was part of our grow the ecosystem model20:17
ttxsdague: and I'd actually agree with that. I just think htey need to know about this discussion20:17
ttxI wonder if we should not have an email thread about this proposal, since it's currently flying under the radar of a lot of projects that will be affected by this change20:17
anteayathe layer of things that were openstack but not under tc governance20:17
ttxGiving them the opportunity to voice their opinion of it before we approve it would be good, since it will directly impact them...20:17
jeblairdhellmann: i would say that if a project has contempt for the tc and the wider openstack development community, then this is probably not the place for that project.20:17
annegent_zaneb: nope, and ttx how do we know any project's motivations?20:17
dhellmannjeblair: I agree with that20:17
annegent_I'm uncomfortable talking about a project without having a rep here to discuss their motivations.20:17
russellbjeblair: dhellmann agree20:18
anteayajeblair: I don't think opting out of elections and so on is expressing contempt20:18
edleafejeblair: I don't think 'contempt' is accurate20:18
ttxannegent_: let's say it's an hypothetical project20:18
anteayaI think it is exerciseing an option for being in the ecosystem20:18
jeblairedleafe: great, because that's the strawman that has been proposed, so if we can get a better one, let's do it.  :)20:18
anteayaand I had thought that was part of the vision to grow openstack20:18
ttxthere are projects in stackforge that won't defer control over their project to the tc20:18
annegent_ttx: there are motivations and attitudes throughout, stackforge or openstack, doesn't matter.20:18
dhellmannjeblair: fwiw, both pecan and wsme will likely move back to github, not because of contempt, but because they're not solely used by openstack20:18
edleafettx: what sort of control will the TC be exerting on them?20:19
ttxdhellmann: and I don't think that's a great outcome tbh20:19
ttxedleafe: potentially anything20:19
jeblairdhellmann: what motivates that?20:19
jeblairdhellmann: i think they contribute significantly to the openstack mission20:19
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jeblairdhellmann: and we have lots of projects in openstack that are not solely used by openstack20:19
dhellmannjeblair: ok, well, they're not experimental and don't want TC oversight because this project is not the only one driving their requirements20:20
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jgriffithjeblair: ttx just curious, if they're widely used elsewhere, and still open on github what's the down-side?20:20
dhellmannand it sounds like stackforge is closing?20:20
ttxedleafe: we wield the "do that or get out of openstack" threat, we've just been pretty conservative at using that nuclear optoin so far, mostly because we didn't have that many projects20:20
dhellmannmaybe I'm wildly misunderstanding the intent here20:20
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jgriffithdhellmann: At first thought I personally wish "more" would find homes outside of the OpenStack umbrella so to speak, it means they're diverse and useful in other places (I think)20:21
dhellmannjgriffith: note the naming guidelines oslo uses, for just that reason20:21
jeblairdhellmann: the intent is primarily to put all the projects in the 'openstack' namespace so we can stop moving them around all the time :).  secondarily, it's to push projects that should be in the big tent into it.20:21
jeblairso perhaps we need a word that's not experimental and a word that's not stackforge.20:21
jgriffithdhellmann: indeed20:21
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dhellmannjeblair: ok, well, if you just want to rename their git repos I don't think that will be an issue, and "retirement" may have given me the wrong impression20:22
edleafejeblair: 'outdoor' projects (i.e., not in the big tent)?20:22
ttxjeblair: what if we just moved all of stackforge/ to openstack/ and kept stackforge the same ? Solve the technical problem first ?20:22
jgriffithside-shows :)20:22
dhellmannjeblair: note, there wasn't any complaint, it isn't a big deal for those projects20:22
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ttxwe could have a stackforge.yaml that lists them so that we know which is which20:22
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jeblairdhellmann: yeah, we're clearly still trying to figure our way here20:22
dhellmannttx: or we could do what we do now, and not include them in project lists at all20:23
ttxedleafe: I like outdoor, but I'd rather not change names if we can avoid it :)20:23
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ttxdhellmann: right20:23
dhellmannjeblair: sure, I guess my point was just that it may be natural for some projects to decide to take the opportunity to move20:23
edleafettx: just a suggestion :)20:23
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jeblairdhellmann: that's fine -- it's only the suggestion that we might make a missstep that would cause a project contributing to the openstack mission to think they _had_ to move that concerns me20:24
ttxMy take on this is that to solve an immediate problem (repo renames) we design a chnage that will have lots of side-effects on our community and need to be carefully considered and discussed20:24
dhellmannjeblair: yeah, that wasn't as clear in early drafts -- I'll review it again with that in mind20:24
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ttxand I'd like the discussion on that to take some time, but I think solving the repo rename issue can be done fast20:25
jeblairdhellmann: it's changing.  earlier, i would have expected those projects to join the big tent.20:25
ttxjeblair: anything preventing a massive stackforge rename to happen tomorrow ?20:25
dhellmannjeblair: I think the pecan team is pretty happy with the relationship they have with the community now, and aren't looking for more oversight that a move like that would imply20:26
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fungiprobably the biggest hurdle to a mass rename is scheduling/messaging20:26
jeblairttx: just a few hundred person-hours of work :)20:26
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dhellmannwould it buy is anything to just stop adding new projects, and continue doing renames as-needed?20:26
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ttxjeblair: that we would have to do anyway, right ?20:27
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fungiat least if we do it all at once, we can rip off that band-aid and have it over with rather than death by a thousand cuts over the next several years20:27
jeblairttx: right -- we're okay signing up for the renames, just not continuing indefinitely :)20:27
anteayattx the hope is that a project aimed for teh openstack namespace doesn't expect a rename as part of their workflow20:27
dhellmannfungi: that makes sense20:27
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ttxjeblair: right, we would just do a one-stop rename of all stackforge/* to openstack/*20:28
anteayattx namespace, big tent, offical - pick your term20:28
jeblairso it seems like the tc's feeling this week is that it doesn't want to change anything about stackforge at all, and would like to keep the stackforge "program" as-is but move it into the openstack namespace to facilitate migration?20:28
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ttxstill call it stackforge and then have a longer discussion on the future of that20:28
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ttxjeblair: I think that would get you to 80% of your objectives, twice as fast20:28
ttxjeblair: My feeling is that we have to take more time to discuss changing stackforge into anything else20:29
ttxincluding a ML discussion20:29
ttxand we can solve the immediate problem faster20:29
jeblairttx: i suspect we will lose the inertia to change it; i don't think anyone _really_ wants to change anything about it.20:29
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dhellmannI would like to see a ML discussion, too. I think eventually it does make sense to "close" stackforge in some sense and retire the name.20:30
ttxjeblair: maybe. once we remove the pain, the fuel will be gone20:30
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jeblairmy hope is to convince everyone that the big tent is big enough for all of these projects, but that can wait.  :)20:31
ttxjeblair: so I would pick one of two ways: continue with the larger change and start a discussion on the ML about it... or pass a resolution for the aggressive renaming of the git namespaces20:31
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ttxwithout changing the governance behind it20:31
ttxat least in a first step20:31
jeblairdo we want a stackforge.yaml file, or just, no file for stackforge and you add yourself to projects.yaml when you want to join the tent?20:31
dhellmannI think the latter20:31
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jeblairdhellmann: me too20:32
ttxI could do with bot20:32
ttxI've met with a number of very confused folks lately, and I feel like changing stackforge today would be the straw that breaks the camel back20:32
ttxbut those same people never cloned a repo20:32
ttxso the namespace migration would not affect them20:32
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ttxok, we need to move on to other agenda items...20:33
jeblairso next version: stackforge continues as-is, no registry of stackforge projects, but stackforge projects are created in openstack/ namespace20:33
dhellmanndoes anyone know how many stackforge repos there are, roughly?20:33
jeblairi'll have that ready by next meeting20:33
jeblairdhellmann: 32620:33
dhellmannjeblair: yeah, with renames for existing projects to be scheduled in short order if you want to include that20:33
ttxand moved over in a short timeframe so that we don't keep both20:33
jeblairminus a few that haven't moved over20:33
dhellmannjeblair: that's a pretty exact estimate :-)20:33
jeblairdeceptively exact ;)20:34
ttxjeblair: do you have enough to move forward, or need more on this topic ?20:34
jeblairttx: got it, thanks20:34
fungi309 repos in the stackforge namespace as of today20:34
ttxthere are quite a few repos that are scheduled to move already :)20:34
fungioh, you're counting attic probably20:34
ttx#topic Adds guidelines for project and service names20:34
*** openstack changes topic to "Adds guidelines for project and service names (Meeting topic: tc)"20:34
ttx(would be great to identify dead and move them to attic directly)20:35
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/20116020:35
ttxannegentle: would you like to introduce this one ?20:35
annegent_ttx: sure!20:35
lifelessI think the TC oversight is the big thing20:35
lifelessbah, way back on discussion, sorry.20:35
annegent_wait I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about this topic as it sounds!20:35
ttxnot sure eating while chairing this meeting was such a great idea. Cold food seems to be the net result20:35
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jeblairttx: welcome to my world20:36
ttxlifeless: it's a bait-and-switch scheme. Open the tent, bring the baton20:36
ttxcontrol all the things20:36
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ttxso.. anyone with questions on boring naming stuff?20:37
annegent_So, partially it gets interesting with jaypipes last question.20:37
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ttxI have a few remarks wit hthe application and the result of it :)20:37
dhellmannannegent_: can you explain the "Use modeul if it is consuming other services" thing? does that mean literally put the word "module" in the name somewhere?20:37
annegent_"We don't want two OpenStack Compute APIs, but we could conceivably have more than one project that published *the* OpenStack Compute API." -- jaypipes20:37
jeblairwhat's with the reference to the ibm style guide?20:37
edleafeagree that using project name for the service is terribad20:38
dhellmannannegent_: I don't think jaypipes is right about that.20:38
annegent_jeblair: in all writing circles you need a final arbiter20:38
annegent_IBM is pretty much the only tech company besides Microsoft still publishing a tech pubs style guide20:38
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/20167020:38
annegent_usually in open source we would have used the old Sun Microsystems one20:38
ttxThis one is a strawman showing how the application of the current rules would look ^20:38
jeblairannegent_: and it would help with choosing terms like this?20:38
annegent_but Oracle didn't keep it in publishing20:38
annegent_jeblair: bare-metal or bare metal?20:38
annegent_jeblair: find an arbiter and let them decide rather than giving writers time to debate20:39
dhellmannthis is like pep8 for names in documentation20:39
jeblairannegent_: ah, i understand now.  that may warrant an extra sentence in the governance change.  :)20:39
annegent_jeblair: :) I can do.20:39
ttxannegent_: in the strawman application reiew maybe "Image" for Glance and "Message" for zaqar feels a bit raw20:39
ttxEspecially with Cue being "Message broker"20:39
annegent_I'm also fine with removing the "module" rule but it does mean changes to existing docs.20:39
annegent_ttx: I too felt like plural as a rule might be a better rule. Images Messages20:39
dhellmannannegent_: I'm not asking for a change, I just don't understand the statement there.20:40
annegent_(well, I don't know if too is correct)20:40
dhellmannannegent_: I think ttx means that "Message broker" isn't sufficiently descriptive, because there are a couple of things that are related to message brokers20:40
annegent_dhellmann: ah20:40
annegent_ttx: Computing, Networking, Imaging, Messaging20:40
dhellmanncue is message brokers as a service, zaqar uses a message broker to deliver messages20:40
annegent_see all kinds of rules we can make up20:40
ttxno I mean Service: Message and Service: Message broker sounds pretty... similar but still different ?20:41
ttx(and zaqar is also a broker, right?20:41
annegent_eep. I guess?20:41
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ttxdhellmann: oh... ok...20:41
* ttx is even more puzzles now20:41
dhellmannsome of this confusion seems to stem from the old need to have a unique name for integrated projects20:41
* jaypipes rejoins meeting...20:42
annegent_hey jaypipes20:42
dhellmannmaybe rather than a service name, we should just have a short description, and use the project name in the docs20:42
jeblairperhaps cue should be "Message broker provisioning" or something20:42
annegent_dhellmann: right I agree. But for docs we need unique names20:42
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dhellmannannegent_: projects have unique names already, right?20:42
zanebjeblair: ++ and ditto for Trove, which is not a database20:42
jeblairzaneb: right20:42
dhellmannannegent_: there are not 2 Cue projects20:42
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ttxwhile magnetodb is20:42
annegent_dhellmann: we avoid the use project name in docs so that users don't have to do a lookup for "what is trove?"20:42
ttxor not20:43
annegent_dhellmann: "what is cue? I have to go to another place to look it up"20:43
dhellmannannegent_: I can see where that would be appropriate sometimes20:43
ttxzaneb: the distinction there would be, indeed, useful20:43
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jeblair(yeah, our codenames are decidedly unfriendly for new users/deployers)20:43
annegent_dhellmann: it's a bad experience20:43
dhellmannsure, ok20:43
annegent_for pretty much everyone20:43
zanebttx: exactly, though not the only conceivable kind of database by a wide margin20:43
dhellmannso let's make more descriptive project names, then20:43
jeblairi was confused as a newbie when we had 3 projects.20:43
annegent_jeblair: heh20:43
annegent_jeblair: I kept calling swift nova and the hateful stares finally made me stop :)20:44
* dhellmann only pretends to know what any of these projects do20:44
edleafeI still have to look up half of the project names20:44
ttxzaneb: I like provisioning. makes it clear it's not dataplane api20:44
jeblairannegent_: hateful stares as a service20:44
annegent_so: nouns not gerunds (-ing)20:44
annegent_service not project20:44
ttxfoundations as a service is popular lately20:44
annegent_be legal20:44
annegent_no more "module"20:45
ttxok, so how about we push that discussion to the review ?20:45
dhellmannannegent_: "be legal"?20:45
annegent_dhellmann: just that you don't add OpenStack automatically to a service name20:45
ttxso far it didn't get that much attention, so it's still at early stages20:45
edleafeIt seems that one size doesn't fit all. Some projects provide a clearly defined service (compute), while others are fancier combinations that offer a blend of things20:45
dhellmannannegent_: oh, ok20:45
annegent_dhellmann: that's "illegal"20:45
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dhellmannannegent_: some of these rules would make more sense with these explanations included inline :-)20:45
annegent_ttx: fair 'nuff. Anything I should patch today? Maybe remove modules.20:45
annegent_dhellmann: oh maybe examples would be useful in the guidelines?20:46
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lifelessedleafe: is compute that clearly defined? containers in, containers out, containers sort-of-in ... :)20:46
ttxannegent_: I like adding provisioning where applicable20:46
annegent_dhellmann: I can do that20:46
dhellmannannegent_: I would not presume to tell a doc expert how to explain things best. ;-)20:46
annegent_dhellmann: ha, you're better at documenting governance than I20:46
annegent_ttx: ok20:46
ttxok, moving on20:46
annegent_sounds good thanks20:46
ttx#topic New projects have to meet all existing policies.20:46
edleafelifeless: :)20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "New projects have to meet all existing policies. (Meeting topic: tc)"20:46
jeblairdhellmann: ouch, not sure how i'd feel about that if i were you? :)20:46
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/20176620:46
ttxI think that's just a clarification, and the suggested wording is an improvement20:46
ttxStill missing a couple votes last time I looked20:46
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jaypipesttx: angdraug had a request on that one that I think is worthwhile.20:47
* ttx checks now20:47
lifeless+2 for great consensus20:47
annegent_jeblair: oh no offense meant to dhellmann :)20:47
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dhellmannjeblair, annegent_ : I'm still trying to decide ;-)20:47
ttxjaypipes: could eb added as subsequent commit20:47
ttxthere is nothing wrong in current proposal, could just be more detailed.20:47
lifelessjaypipes: I think angdraug's request is best as subsequent edits: they're asking for some existing policies to be better documented20:47
angdraugjust added comment earlier today that I can be mostly satisfied with making "all policies" a hyperlink to governance.openstack.org20:48
lifelessjaypipes: which is fine, but in no way detracts from us saying that existing policies apply to both existing and new projects20:48
ttxWould be great if he submitted it directly :)20:48
angdraugthe rest should be done as separate fixups, yes20:48
jaypipesttx. lifeless: sure, followup patch woul dbe fine.20:48
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ttxok, we have majority, will approve i 30 sec20:48
jaypipes#action angdraug to submit amendment to that guideline.20:49
ttx#topic Introduce the "deliverables" concept20:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Introduce the "deliverables" concept (Meeting topic: tc)"20:49
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/20258320:49
ttxI'll let you read the commit message there. The idea is that we need to track user-facing units of software, which in some cases do not align to git repository boundaries20:49
ttxHence the proposed introduction of a "deliverable" concept that maps 1:n to git repositories20:49
annegent_I like deliverables!20:49
ttxAnd since that's the user-facing bit and tags apply to user-facing things, it makes sense20:49
ttxto apply tags at that level rather than at the git repo level20:49
ttxdon't pay attention to the fact the change fails tests20:49
dhellmannwe've already organized the new openstack/releases repository along these lines20:50
ttxit's because we need to evolve tools... I want to see if the idea sounds good enough that I can statr working on tooling changes20:50
ttxso I'm not looking for +1s now, rather for lack of -1s20:50
ttxdoes that change generally sounds like a good idea ? let me know on the review and i'll continue working on it20:51
russellbconcept makes good sense20:51
jeblairi really like the concept.20:51
jeblairand if i can bikeshed for a moment, i also really like it when lists are indented (like in the yaml spec)20:51
dhellmannttx: sdague had a patch up for a new devstack tag that still seemed to apply to a repo, did you see that?20:51
anteayattx actually starts to help me understand the various parts of a given project better20:52
ttxjeblair: please add that to review as comment, I had that file autogenerated20:52
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dhellmannttx: https://review.openstack.org/20378520:52
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ttxjeblair: I'd see all puppet-* from infra as a single deliverable for example20:52
ttxor not20:52
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ttxfrees us from repo boundaries20:53
russellbis that actually delivered anywhere?20:53
ttxnot really20:53
russellbi think it makes sense for all the stuff released as part of openstack, though20:53
ttxit's continuous deployed20:53
ttxyeah, it doesn't make tat much sense for things that are not released, to be honest20:53
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jeblairyeah, i think releasing infra puppet-* is a long way down the road, if at all.20:53
dhellmannjust because it's not packaged doesn't mean its not released, right?20:54
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ttxI hesitated with having a special section for "extra-repos" outside deliverables20:54
ttxfor specs and all20:54
ttxsupport rpeos20:54
ttxsice those are not "deliverables" in any sense20:54
ttxanyway, need to move on. Please review and let me know20:55
ttx#topic Workgroup reports20:55
*** openstack changes topic to "Workgroup reports (Meeting topic: tc)"20:55
ttx* Next tags20:55
ttxWe had a meeting for the "next tags" WG last week, notes at20:55
ttx#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/next-tags-wg20:55
jeblairif infra has a combined deliverable, it may end up being very large :)20:55
ttxConclusion is we agreed on drafting a few new tags in the near future and push that to the TC20:55
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ttxDetails in the etherpad for those interested to see what we brainstormed20:55
ttx* Project team guide20:55
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ttxI need reviews on that to push the changes I suggested, last time I looked only dhellmann did review20:55
ttx#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/is:open+project:openstack/project-team-guide+branch:master,n,z20:55
ttxjeblair: any chance you could you look into that ?20:55
ttxWe also wait for flaper87 to make progress on the Open development chapter (or post the current state)20:56
ttxThen it will be ready for publication20:56
annegent_nice work20:56
ttx* Comms20:56
ttxannegent_: news?20:56
annegent_I can write a post this week.20:56
annegent_Also we now have a grouping link.20:56
ttxcool. UX!20:56
annegent_#link https://www.openstack.org/blog/category/technical-committee-updates/20:56
ttx#topic Open discussion20:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)"20:57
ttxjeblair: We have a few old repo-change governance reviews blocked on Infra PTL +1 :20:57
ttxnot sure if those are blocked intentionally or just slipped through20:57
ttxThere was an answer to the CLA question on the foundation list:20:57
jeblairslipped through20:58
ttx#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2015-July/002030.html20:58
ttxhaven't had time to parse it20:58
russellbi generally interpreted it as ACKing our interpretation from Vancouver20:58
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russellbwith some more detail20:58
ttxI'll give it a read20:58
annegent_I couldn't figure out if somehow sdague posted to the board list?20:58
russellbboard will discuss and hopefully officially approve the overall plan at board meeting next week20:59
russellbannegent_: no20:59
ttxyes, the "personalization" of the request was a bit disturbing20:59
sdaguewhen is the board meeting?20:59
russellbsdague: tuesday20:59
sdagueok, cool20:59
sdagueyeh, it seemed like mostly an ACK, I was happy with that20:59
russellbyeah, and hopefully on tuesday we can make it more official too20:59
ttxlooks like saying it's "sean's request" makes it less than "the TC request"20:59
ttx(no offense)20:59
russellbright, but i don't see any reason to pick at that unless we didn't like the content21:00
* jeblair moves that the TC thank sean for making that request :)21:00
sdaguettx: yeh, well, I think the original request was pretty clear that it was generally TC supported21:00
IgorYozhikovI have a question about project for deb package proposed by zigo, when it could be discussed?21:00
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ttxsdague: right, which is why I cringed at that subject line21:00
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ttxanywya, out of time21:01
russellbyeah that was weird, but i say ignore it since the content is moving forward with what we want21:01
annegent_sure, sounds good21:01
ttxpersonalization of requests from an elected body is a known tactic21:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jul 21 21:01:31 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-21-20.01.html21:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-21-20.01.txt21:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-07-21-20.01.log.html21:01
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annegent_ttx: tactic for what end?21:01
jeblairdiminishing them, i would imagine21:01
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ttxannegent_: to make the request sound like a personal thing and not something coming from the legitimate body21:02
annegent_oo interesting21:02
russellbwell if it was intentional and passive aggressive, whatever21:02
ttxI'm seeing that happen in my town council21:02
dhellmannmaybe we need an official TC mailing address :-)21:02
sdagueheh, well, people at the board meeting could mention that21:02
* ttx learns new tricks from real politics21:02
anteayaIgorYozhikov: I suggest sending an email to the -dev list and cc'ing the -tc list, then request the concern get on next week's agenda21:02
russellbsdague: i'll be sure to clarify if it's ever mentioned as a sdague thing and not a TC thing21:03
russellbi'll make sure to re-emphasize that it's the TC's position and request that we move forward here21:03
angdrauganteaya: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-July/069377.html21:03
jeblairrussellb: thank you21:03
IgorYozhikovanteaya: thanks21:03
sdaguerussellb: thanks21:03
angdraugshould that be fwd'ed to -tc?21:03
russellbyep np21:03
dhellmannanteaya, IgorYozhikov : yes, please send email since we're out of time today21:03
dhellmannrussellb: ty21:03
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ttxcheers all21:03
anteayaangdraug IgorYozhikov request it be added to next week's tc agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee21:04
IgorYozhikovdhellmann: ok, going to do it early at morning21:04
dhellmannangdraug, IgorYozhikov : we're working on ways to stop adding stackforge projects, so you'll want to go right to openstack/ -- see https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192016/21:04
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IgorYozhikovdhellmann: I thought about it and may be it will be better to try to establish new repos under opnstack name-space instead of stackforge21:07
dhellmannIgorYozhikov: ++21:08
angdraugso the plan is for IgorYozhikov to update the proposal s/stackforge/openstack/g and send to -dev and -tc, right?21:08
angdraugjust crossing the i's and dotting the t's :)21:09
IgorYozhikovangdraug: yes, i'll do it :)21:09
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IgorYozhikovdhellmann: angdraug, thanks for your advice.21:11
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loquacitieshi everyone!23:32
JRobinson__loquacities, o/23:32
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loquacities#startmeeting docteam23:33
openstackMeeting started Tue Jul 21 23:33:13 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.23:33
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.23:33
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:33
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'23:33
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loquacitieshi JRobinson__23:33
loquacitieshi katomo23:33
loquacitieswho else is here?23:33
dnavalehi loquacities23:33
loquacitiesadahms mentioned he might be a bit late23:33
loquacitiesheya dnavale and furface :)23:33
loquacitiesthanks for coming early :)23:34
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adahmsI am here :)23:34
loquacitiesmorning adahms you made it :)23:34
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darrencme too23:34
loquacitiesheya darrenc23:35
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loquacitiesok, let's get started ...23:35
loquacities#topic Action items from the last meeting23:35
*** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:35
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loquacitiesfrom the last APAC meeting: loquacities to investigate if an ops guide RST conversion is feasible, and report back to the ops guide team23:36
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loquacitiesi did so, and we decided to consider this for mitaka instead23:36
loquacitiesfrom the last US meeting:23:36
loquacitiesloquacities to circle back on third-party content23:36
loquacitiesi'd like to discuss that further today, if we can23:37
loquacitiesShilla to e-mail Lana summarizing the solutions for the third-party content23:37
loquacitiesi don't think i got that email, but it's ok23:37
loquacitiesand finally: Shilla to find out how spotlight bugs are chose23:37
loquacitiesi can tell you how that works: basically i sort the bugs by age and pick the oldest ones that aren't owned by anybody23:37
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loquacitiesif they are owned i try and work out if they're being actively worked on, and if not, they're also in the list23:38
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Sam-I-Ammakes sense23:38
loquacitiesi'm also keeping track of every spotlight bug and its resolution and who closed it23:38
loquacitiesi'm also chatting to foundation about trying to get some incentives in place to help this along23:38
darrencA virtual pat on the back23:39
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loquacitiesif you think a particular bug *should* be spotlighted, you can let me know directly, or by adding it to my newsletter content: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/WhatsUpDoc#Your_suggestions_for_content23:39
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Sam-I-Amless organ failure23:39
bmoss"I kill old bugs" t-shirt23:39
loquacitiesyeah, swag is most likely ;)23:39
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loquacitiesSam-I-Am: can't help you with the organ failure, sorry :P23:39
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Sam-I-Amloquacities: the liver is next23:40
loquacitiesOK, let's look at the specs ...23:40
loquacitiesSam-I-Am: haha, i'm surprised it's still working!23:40
loquacities#topic Liberty specs in review #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z23:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Liberty specs in review #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:40
Sam-I-Amloquacities: after this week, i'm not so sure23:40
loquacities#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191077/ (Install Guide Liberty update - WIP)23:41
loquacitiesthis one is marked as WIP until the RST conversion is done23:41
loquacities#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/197976/ (Contributor/Style Guide)23:41
Sam-I-Amyep, and probably until we know of any other major changes for liberty23:41
loquacitiesif you have feels about a separate contributor/style guide in our repo, then make sure you weeigh in on that one23:41
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loquacities#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/191041/ (Third Party driver docs - requires discussion)23:41
loquacitiesthis is the one we probably need to chat about23:42
loquacitiestbh, i'm *really* against the idea of having third party content in our docs23:42
loquacitiesespecially proprietary third party content23:42
* Sam-I-Am was still looking at the last one23:42
loquacitiesoh, sorry!23:43
Sam-I-Amnow, for 3rd party...23:43
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Sam-I-Ami think we need to chuck 3rd party stuff for the following reasons23:44
Sam-I-Amparticularly proprietary/pay stuff23:44
Sam-I-Amvendors dump stuff there once and dont maintain it23:44
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Sam-I-Amthe docs team already has trouble keeping up with core openstack docimpacts, so we dont need additional ones to worry about23:44
Sam-I-Amand there's no way for us to validate the content23:45
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bmoss+1s to those points23:45
Sam-I-Amlike... what happens during release cycles (that may be different than openstack)23:45
Sam-I-Amif you're a company that sells something for openstack, you can spend money on resources for the documentation23:45
loquacitiesok, so the spec atm says that vendors can include docs for their driver in the config ref if they agree to maintain it23:45
loquacitiesi think that's the bit i mostly don't like23:45
Sam-I-Ami'd chuck them all, frankly, but for some reason config reference stuck around23:46
loquacitieswho would push back if we ditched config ref, do you think?23:46
Sam-I-Amnot sure, there's a reason its in there, but we can take it out.23:46
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loquacitiesi think i would prefer that23:47
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Sam-I-Amat least with neutron, there's some concern about what one considers worthy of documenting within openstack23:47
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bmossthe spec mentions that the original idea was to have only minimal docs for all drivers, but some vendors rejected this as they do not have docs of their own.23:47
Sam-I-Amthere's probably 'free open source23:48
Sam-I-Amthere's probably 'free open source' things with happy licensing that dont have a home for docs, but i still dont think that makes us responsible23:48
bmossnot sure who those vendors are23:48
Sam-I-Amits no hard to make a docs thing in github23:48
loquacitiesi don't mind documenting them if they're open source23:48
loquacitiesvendors can throw up their own docs, though23:48
Sam-I-Ambmoss: i dont know why vendors wouldnt have their own docs for something they sell23:48
loquacitiesif they're making money off it, they don't need our charity23:49
loquacitiesok, let's move on23:49
Sam-I-Amseems like theyre leveraging free work23:49
loquacities#topic Speciality teams: #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/SpecialityTeams23:49
*** openstack changes topic to "Speciality teams: #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/SpecialityTeams (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:49
bmossoh, I agree with you both, I was just mentioning what it says in the spec.23:49
loquacities#info HA Guide - RST migration complete, need help with updating content.23:49
loquacitiesanyone with time to spare, the HA guide team could really use your help23:49
loquacities#info Install Guides - Conversion sprint this week! #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/VirtualSprints#Installation_guide_conversion_from_DocBook_to_RST Sign up for conversion here #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Migrate#Installation_Guide_Migration23:50
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loquacitiesthe sprint is running over 48 hours, so there's plenty of opportunity for APAC people to get involved23:50
loquacitieswe also have more APAC-timed docs cores now, to try and speed things along23:50
Sam-I-Amand it looks like a lot of work has already been done23:50
loquacitiesyeah, it should be easy to get involved23:51
loquacities#info Networking Guide - Test & review for Liberty updates.23:51
Sam-I-Amdoes everyone have the link to the draft docs?23:51
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Sam-I-Amthats a good way to see whats missing23:51
loquacitiescool, thanks Sam-I-Am23:51
Sam-I-Amrather than picking through patches23:51
loquacities#info Security Guide - RST conversion started, sign up here: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/sec-guide-rst23:51
loquacities#info User Guides - Cloud Admin Guide RST conversion nearly done! #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Migrate#Cloud_Admin_Guide_Migration23:51
loquacities#info Ops/Arch Guides - Ops Guide conversion targeted for Mitaka. #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/OpsGuide23:52
Sam-I-Ami have some updates for the networking guide23:52
loquacitiesooh, do share23:52
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Sam-I-Ami noticed neutron devs tossing seemingly ops/user docs into their devref repo rather than the networking guide (or other guides) and asked why23:53
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Sam-I-Amthe networking guide is rst, so no excuse there23:53
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Sam-I-Amthere's still the docs review process, but we're not picky with the networking guide23:53
loquacitieswhat did they say?23:53
Sam-I-Amthey seem to agree23:53
loquacitiesoh, cool23:53
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loquacitieshopefully we can get some change there23:53
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Sam-I-Amhowever, there's potentially a ton of content in the devref repo that needs to be audited and moved/copied/linked to the networking guide23:54
Sam-I-Amsome of it is probably defunct too23:54
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loquacitiesso we need an audit, then23:54
Sam-I-Amshitty thing is... the devref and wiki come up first in google searches for neutron23:54
Sam-I-Amwhich i bought up on the list today23:54
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loquacitiesoh yeah, i saw that23:54
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Sam-I-Amnot sure why we can't get our google searches right23:54
Sam-I-Amits been like this for as long as i've been around23:54
loquacitiesi'm not an SEO expert23:54
Sam-I-Amhowever, my main concern is the networking guide shows up *nowhere*23:54
Sam-I-Amso unless you go to docs.o.o, you dont find it23:55
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loquacitiesanne pointed to a patch that's supposed to help23:55
Sam-I-Aminstead, you find stuff thats not going to help23:55
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Sam-I-Amso, guess who got picked to do the devref audit23:55
loquacities#info API docs - Spec is now merged! #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/API23:56
loquacities#info Config Ref - New speciality team! Thanks Guavain #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/ConfigRef23:56
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loquacitiesok, is that all for speciality teams?23:56
loquacities#topic Doc tools update23:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools update (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:56
loquacitiesjust FYI really23:56
loquacities#info openstackdocstheme 1.1.0 released: Release notes: #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-announce/2015-June/000392.html23:56
loquacities#info Stable/Icehouse branch is now EOL23:57
loquacitiesindeed :)23:57
loquacities#topic APAC Meetups23:57
*** openstack changes topic to "APAC Meetups (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:57
loquacities#info Reminder: APAC Docs Swarm on 13-14 August, ping Suyog23:57
JRobinson__#info re: Speciality Teams - the User Guide cloud admin conversion is almost done23:57
loquacitiesi'm busy working on getting swag for the swarm, too23:57
loquacitiesJRobinson__: noted!23:57
bmosseach contributor gets a bee hive23:58
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bmossecological swag23:58
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loquacitiesbmoss: i think you need to work on your swag ideas ... :P23:58
Sam-I-Ambmoss: the hair cut?23:58
loquacitiesok, finally, here's our spotlight bugs for this week ...23:58
loquacities#topic Spotlight bugs23:58
*** openstack changes topic to "Spotlight bugs (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:58
loquacities#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1241116 Using policies for protected properties23:58
openstackLaunchpad bug 1241116 in openstack-manuals " Using policies for protected properties" [Medium,Triaged]23:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1241116 in openstack-manuals "Using policies for protected properties" [Medium,Triaged]23:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1241116 in openstack-manuals "Using policies for protected properties" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/124111623:58
loquacities#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1241179 Add notifications for groups and roles23:58
openstackLaunchpad bug 1241179 in openstack-manuals " Add notifications for groups and roles" [Medium,Confirmed]23:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1241179 in openstack-manuals "Add notifications for groups and roles" [Medium,Confirmed]23:58
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1241179 in openstack-manuals "Add notifications for groups and roles" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/124117923:59
loquacities#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1251060 Xenapi: Allow windows builds with xentools 6.1 and 6.223:59
openstackLaunchpad bug 1251060 in openstack-manuals " Xenapi: Allow windows builds with xentools 6.1 and 6.2" [Medium,Triaged]23:59
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1251060 in openstack-manuals "Xenapi: Allow windows builds with xentools 6.1 and 6.2" [Medium,Triaged]23:59
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1251060 in openstack-manuals "Xenapi: Allow windows builds with xentools 6.1 and 6.2" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/125106023:59
loquacitiesthe bot is having a moment23:59
bmossin quadruplicate!23:59
loquacities#topic Open discussion23:59
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)"23:59
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loquacitiesanything else, anyone?23:59
loquacitiessorry for racing through things so fast: places to go, people to see23:59
Sam-I-Amit is light speed23:59

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