Wednesday, 2015-03-11

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garykany folks around for the vmware-api meeting - that is on #openstack-meeting-4.10:00
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annegentleokay here we are14:01
nickchaseMorning all!@14:01
annegentle#startmeeting docteam14:01
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openstackMeeting started Wed Mar 11 14:01:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'14:01
annegentlehi nickchase!14:01
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annegentleHere's our agenda for the meeting14:01
annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting14:02
annegentlefirst item14:02
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annegentle#topic Action items from the last meeting14:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:02
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annegentleOh I think I'm going to borrow from the API Working group and add #topic and #link commands to the agenda itself next time14:02
annegentleOk, last meeting14:02
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annegentlethat was the APAC meeting, here's the action item14:03
annegentleasettle to book informal Brisbane meetup for 31 March, and send out invites14:03
annegentleThat doesn't affect too many of us in this timezone14:03
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annegentlefrom our last meeting, Andreas and I had all the action items14:04
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annegentleDone: AJaeger to update the docs driver spec at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133372/14:04
annegentleDone: annegentle to make a call for final review in the weekly docs status update post14:04
annegentleDone: annegentle to update .htaccess and then delete /trunk/install and /trunk/training-guides14:04
annegentleoh wait14:04
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annegentleDone: KLevenstein to share a lightweight “how to contribute to openstack” doc14:04
annegentlethanks KLevenstein!14:04
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annegentleso that was sort of backwards order but they're all done14:05
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annegentleany questions?14:05
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annegentleWe don't have an ajaeger, darn :)14:05
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annegentle#topic Any theme bugs that would prevent releasing RST-based User Guide14:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Any theme bugs that would prevent releasing RST-based User Guide (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:05
sicarieIs there a link to the lightweight guide for those of us who were not here last meeting?14:05
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annegentlesicarie: sure I'll find the link14:05
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sicarieThanks!14:06
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annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo/FirstTimers14:06
annegentleand then the one KLevenstein sent out is here:14:06
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annegentle#link https://gist.github.com/klevenstein/20ab9def5cec5146f99514:06
sicarieThanks annegentle14:06
annegentlesure thing14:07
annegentlethere's not much that's truly lightweight :)14:07
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nickchasebrb, network issues14:07
sicarieVery true - bdpayne and I are looking to revise the sec-guide contribution sections, so this is awesome14:07
annegentleOkay, I've been sending out queries to the mailing list, are there any killer bugs that would prevent us from RST14:07
annegentlesicarie: great!14:08
annegentleprevent us from switching to RST for the end user guide and admin user guide?14:08
annegentleDarren asked some great questions about the HOT chapter, I think we've got that covered.14:08
annegentleand the translation team and Daisy really came through as did Andreas with the rest of the toolchain14:08
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annegentle#info Much gratitude to Daisy, Andreas, and everyone who helped with the RST translation toolchain addition14:09
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annegentleso, I've been trying to get a decent count of "what's left to migrate"14:10
annegentleand I've updated the wiki page14:10
annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Migrate14:11
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annegentleDarren has been going great gangbusters14:11
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annegentle#info There are about 20 remaining files for the Admin User Guide migration14:11
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annegentleOne bit of info I want to figure out today is "how many files are remaining for the end user guide to be completely migrated"14:12
annegentleso I'll figure that out and do a ML post with "state of the migration" updates (hopefully today)14:12
annegentleI'm out next week for spring break so I don't know how many more I'll get to myself, this is definitely a call for HELP.14:12
annegentle#help Sign up to migrate XML to RST for the End User Guide and Admin User Guide14:12
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karenb#help14:13
annegentleNow that the translation toolchain is looking good, we must migrate everything by April 9.14:13
annegentlekarenb: that help command goes to the meetbot for note-taking14:13
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annegentleI think you can use /help for IRC commands14:13
annegentleit's a call for help in the notes :)14:13
annegentleI know I've been asking people to send questions to the ML about what conventions we want for RST14:14
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annegentlesuch as: do we want multiple admonitions in a row?14:14
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annegentleand14:14
annegentleAny clever solutions to console output past the 79 char limit?14:15
Sam-I-Amwe used to get scrollbars14:15
annegentleLast night I sent Darren an example of what we did for the Ops Guide, where O'Reilly has hard limits due to the printed page14:15
Sam-I-Amwe could also use a smaller font14:15
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Sam-I-Ami think this one is bigger (or bolder) than what we used to render14:15
annegentleSam-I-Am: oh other good news on admonitions, there's a patch in place to fix the small icon, and yes, the font is smaller.14:16
annegentleSam-I-Am: let me show you just a sec14:16
annegentle#link http://docs-draft.openstack.org/64/162164/6/check/gate-openstackdocstheme-docs/99e7de3//doc/build/html/14:16
annegentleSam-I-Am: it has more "white space" which is actually colored than before14:17
annegentleI think, back to the original topic, we need Next and Prev links before releasing14:17
annegentleBut the original bugs that were really high on my list are getting fixed by Bernd Bausch in really clever ways.14:17
annegentle(The admonitions were a must have for me)14:18
Sam-I-Amdid the 'file a bug' icon gain meta yet?14:18
annegentleSam-I-Am: he's working on it but stalled I believe14:18
annegentleSam-I-Am: so nope not yet, is that a blocker?14:18
Sam-I-Amyep14:18
Sam-I-Ami think so14:18
annegentle(I really want it)14:18
annegentleI also really want the TOC to work better14:18
Sam-I-Amturns out people at the ops meetup really like it14:18
annegentleyeah it's super useful14:18
annegentleok I'd better keep getting through the topics14:19
annegentle#topic Driver doc editors and deadlines14:19
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annegentleThe announcement went to the 3rd party list last week about the driver docs14:19
annegentleI think there's some concern about deletions but I don't think we have deletions in mind, mostly expectations setting.14:19
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annegentle#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/docs-specs/specs/kilo/move-driver-docs.html14:21
annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/VendorDrivers14:21
annegentle#inf We have a decent list of storage driver contacts but need network, database, and hypervisor contacts14:22
annegentlespread the word!14:22
annegentleI'll add it to this week's What's Up Doc14:22
annegentleany questions?14:22
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annegentle#topic Report from Ops Meetup14:22
*** openstack changes topic to "Report from Ops Meetup (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:22
annegentleSounds like Sam-I-Am is still there14:23
Sam-I-Amyep14:23
annegentleI wanted to share the list of etherpads14:23
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annegentle#link http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/openstack-mid-cycle-meetup-day-one-roundup14:23
annegentleThat's the list of etherpads14:23
annegentleand there are two other superuser.openstack.org articles I haven't read yet, so do take a look14:23
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annegentleAnything specific to docs Sam-I-Am? I already reached out to the Security Guide lead Bryan to get his take on the security discussions14:24
Sam-I-Amyeah, a few things14:24
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Sam-I-Amfirst, cinder seems to be doing it right with their devs - no docs, no approve.14:25
annegentlegreat14:25
annegentlealso explains why they have editors on that driver list :)14:25
Sam-I-Amwe need to see that with more projects14:25
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Sam-I-Amlearned a bit more about what people are generally doing for HA ... most of this will go to the HA guide team14:26
annegentlegreat14:26
nickchaseexcellent14:26
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annegentleSam-I-Am: Rabbitmq a lot of it? Seems like high problem set there14:26
Sam-I-Ampeople like the networking guide... trying to get ops contributors for scenarios (either new or improvements) because they're in the trenches14:26
Sam-I-Ameveryone hates rabbitmq, but everything else is worse14:26
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Sam-I-Amno one is using distro packages... except one guy at canonical.14:27
annegentleayup on the "in the trenches"14:27
annegentleoh interesting14:27
annegentlebut for that group, using their own packages makes sense14:27
Sam-I-Amfor various reasons14:27
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annegentlewere you in the tags session?14:27
Sam-I-Amyes14:27
annegentleany takeaways?14:27
Sam-I-Ama larger question mark14:27
annegentle#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PHL-ops-tags14:28
annegentlethose are tags for governance of projects14:28
annegentleyeah it's tough right14:28
Sam-I-Amlots of argument around "how do we assure version X of thing1 works with version Y of thing2"14:28
annegentleok14:28
Sam-I-Amwhat is "maturity" (and does it metter)14:28
annegentleso intercompat14:28
annegentleis the etherpad a decent set of notes from it?14:28
Sam-I-Amyeah, all of the etherpads are good stuff14:29
annegentlecool14:29
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annegentleOkay gotta keep it moving14:29
annegentleThanks Sam-I-Am for going to it and representin' docs!14:29
annegentle#topic Specialty team reports14:29
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annegentleAnyone from training here?14:29
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annegentleWant to give a report on the latest?14:29
annegentleI'll just link to their meeting14:30
annegentle#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_guides/2015/training_guides.2015-03-09-16.02.html14:30
annegentleHow about Security Guide team?14:31
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sicarieyeah14:31
annegentlesicarie: go ahead, just a brief update will do14:31
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sicarieWe have started an end-to-end review; there are three categories being targeted for review as they're "light"14:31
sicariecompute, networking, and storage14:31
annegentlenice14:31
annegentlesicarie: logging doc bugs as you go?14:31
sicarieI'm doing general structure cleanup14:32
sicarieannegentle: of course!14:32
annegentlesicarie: :)14:32
annegentleYou're such a model team :)14:32
sicarieand we're targeting 'completion' of the larger projects by Liberty14:32
annegentleawesome, so fall 2015?14:32
sicarieyes14:32
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sicarieI think that's as general I can get without ranting :)14:32
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annegentlehee14:33
nickchaseMom always did like you best. :)14:33
annegentleokay, how about Networking?14:33
nickchaseWe are actually making good progress...14:33
nickchasethough it's hard to see that...14:33
annegentlenickchase: any updates? I'll dig up the link to your progress post to the ML too14:33
nickchasewith the git issues.14:33
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Sam-I-Amgit issues are consuming most of my time now14:33
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Sam-I-Amand we have a new contributor who also cant figure it out14:34
nickchasebut we are trying to clean that up today.  It's a little frustrating but we just need to go through it.  I'm hoping...14:34
annegentle#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-February/005956.html14:34
nickchasethat as we get things settled it will smooth out.14:34
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annegentlenickchase: sounds good14:34
nickchasethank you for reminding me I'm one meeting minutes report b3ehind. :)14:34
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annegentlenickchase: oh ha14:34
annegentlenickchase: thanks for reminding people about the time change too14:35
nickchaseyeah, we've got a lot of that internally14:35
Sam-I-Amnickchase: i think our meeting is still at the same time?14:35
Sam-I-Amwell, local time :)14:35
nickchaseyes14:35
annegentlenickchase: usually you keep the same UTC time14:35
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nickchaseyeah, but everyone who attends is in the US.14:35
annegentleSam-I-Am: but it does mean different local14:35
nickchaseSo we kept local time and moved UTC.14:35
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annegentleah14:36
annegentleok14:36
annegentlerebel!14:36
annegentle:)14:36
Sam-I-Amthat's nick!14:36
Sam-I-Amkickin butt and taking names14:36
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annegentleOkay, any other specialty teams want to report?14:36
annegentleInstall Guide has to meet still, right KLevenstein?14:36
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KLevensteintrying to schedule a meeting as we speak, actually.14:37
Sam-I-Amtime is hard :/14:37
KLevensteinv. international team, so it’s a challenge, but as soon as something is settled on, will post to openstack-doc14:37
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annegentleyeah time zones and time changes oh my14:38
annegentleSam-I-Am: yeah I'd like the team to work on the spec together, looks like you've got progress and KLevenstein review now too14:38
annegentleso hopefully that keeps it moving14:38
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annegentleSame for User Guide team, time zones are tough.14:38
annegentleany other reports?14:38
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annegentleAny questions?14:38
Sam-I-Amha guide?14:38
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annegentleoh yeah!14:39
annegentleIs MattGriffin around?14:39
annegentledid you hear anything at the ops meetup Sam-I-Am? Sounds like ha-guide will get updates?14:39
nickchaseI can talk to ha guide14:39
nickchaseif he's not here.14:39
annegentlenickchase: cool14:39
nickchaseha guide will get updates.  we have...14:39
nickchasea fairly final toc which we're trying to assign writers for.14:40
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nickchaseI'm hoping that we have something more solid after this week's meeting14:40
Sam-I-Amannegentle: yeah, i have a better idea of what people are doing14:40
Sam-I-Amso this should hopefully narrow down excess in the guide14:40
Sam-I-Amthings no one really does14:40
annegentlenickchase: cool, when's that meeting?14:40
nickchasetomorrow afternoon14:41
annegentlegeez I should have queued up a list of all the meeting times, I'll add those to the weekly doc update email14:41
annegentleso we can get more specialists involved14:41
Sam-I-Amnickchase: did it change times too? lol14:41
nickchaseSam-I-Am I will actually miss that meeting but can you send me the notes you have so I can try and browbeat people beforehand?14:41
annegentlehee14:41
nickchaseSam-I-Am I don't know, actually. :)  probably14:41
nickchasewe should find out. :)14:41
Sam-I-Amnickchase: yeah, i can put something together14:41
nickchasethx14:41
Sam-I-Amnickchase: send me an email :)14:42
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annegentleOkay14:42
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Sam-I-Amkind of in an everything-is-backed-up-from-travel mess14:42
annegentlethanks all who are making the specialty teams organized, MUCH appreciated!14:42
nickchaseSam-I-Am done14:42
annegentlenickchase, KLevenstein, Loquacities, Everyone14:42
annegentle#topic API docs update14:43
*** openstack changes topic to "API docs update (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:43
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annegentleI triaged all the bugs yesterday, there are probably 280 now14:43
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annegentlebunch of Compute 2.1 API docimpacts landed looks like14:43
Sam-I-Amwould be nice to get nova people to attack them14:43
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annegentleI wanted to let you all know I'm going to take a JSON Schema patch solution to the API Working Group's meeting tomorrow to figure out if it's an okay stop-gap solution for not wanting to write XSDs and to offer automation.14:44
annegentleOh what I did for those DocImpact was to Subscribe the original author14:44
annegentlethat way they'll be notified.14:44
Sam-I-Amgood.14:44
nickchasegreat idea14:44
annegentleit's so amazing, the backlog of reviews for api-site is unprecedented14:44
annegentlebut it also means a lot of review time :)14:45
annegentleI'll take it though, happy to see the uptick14:45
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Sam-I-Amare there any plans to replace wadl?14:45
annegentleI think that's it for API docs, any questions?14:45
Sam-I-Amthat came up at the ops meetup too14:45
annegentleSam-I-Am: I will visit it in a blueprint next release for sho'14:45
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Sam-I-Amk14:45
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annegentlewe have a Swagger migration path now but I've got to get the RST migration settled14:45
annegentleall in good time14:46
annegentleleads naturally to14:46
annegentle#topic Doc tools update14:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools update (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:46
annegentleI wanted to note how much Bernd has taken on for the Sphinx output, really love his work.14:46
annegentlehe documents all his code, and commit messages are really thorough, and his tests are easy to follow.14:46
annegentleI'll try to do a release of openstackdocstheme this week before I go on spring break14:47
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annegentleWell I'll DEFINITELY do a release by tomorrow, how about that14:47
AJaegersorry, completely missed this ;(14:47
Sam-I-Amspring break... heh.14:47
annegentle#info annegentle to create release of openstackdocstheme tomorow14:47
annegentlewelcome AJaeger!14:47
annegentleJust got to doc tools! Great timing :)14:47
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AJaeger;/14:48
annegentleSam-I-Am: yeah my spring break will consist of a staycation with two squirrelly sons :)14:48
annegentleAJaeger: how's the translation stuff going?14:48
AJaegerbefore we can build translated RST documents, we have to release openstack-doc-tools first, I send a patch for review14:48
AJaegerBut this is not time-critical!14:49
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annegentleAJaeger: okay14:49
AJaegerFirst the translators need to translate and right now they cannot translate, since we're changing everything ;)14:49
annegentleAJaeger: I mentioned earlier that I'd like all the RST ready by April 914:49
AJaegerI tested that it works, so we can move forward14:49
annegentleAJaeger: ah, okay. Good to know.14:49
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AJaegerAnd import/export to transifex works.14:49
annegentlewoo! I sincerely hoped it would "just work"14:49
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annegentleso I'm glad we know it does14:50
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AJaegerit needed some changes - thanks to Daisy for documenting how to really do it..14:50
annegentlethank you AJaeger for all that work (My earlier gushing gratitude is in the meeting log) :)14:50
annegentleAJaeger: she's awesome14:50
annegentleAJaeger: like, really really good14:50
AJaeger;)14:50
AJaeger+infinity ;)14:50
annegentleOkay let's leave lots of time for open discussion if there aren't doc tool questions14:50
annegentle#topic Open discussion14:51
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)"14:51
annegentlequestions?14:51
AJaegerI'd like to do a call for core reviewers - we've slowed down with getting patches in.14:52
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AJaegerThere are far too many patches that take weeks to get in ;(14:52
Sam-I-Ambecause of -1s or just waiting for any reviews?14:52
annegentleAJaeger: yes, do you think that's a side effect of migration patches? Though I am seeing it too for API docs for sure.14:52
AJaegerJust waiting for reviews - exapmle https://review.openstack.org/#/c/158275/ from 23rd of February.14:52
AJaegerLots of +1s, today a +1 with a comment that I fixed directly - and no single core reviewed14:53
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AJaegerAnd there are more14:53
annegentleAJaeger: looking at the 30/60/90 review lists I can certainly make suggestions14:53
nickchasewhat's the list of patches waiting for review?14:53
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AJaegerThere are some patches that have smooth sailing and go in quickly as usual but my feeling is that we have slowed down14:53
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AJaegernickchase, https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-manuals,n,z14:54
annegentleI use https://review.openstack.org/#/dashboard/?foreach=%28project%3Aopenstack%2Fopenstack-manuals+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fapi-site+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fdocs-specs+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fobject-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fimage-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fidentity-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fcompute-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fvolume-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fnetconn-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fopera14:54
annegentletions-guide+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fsecurity-doc+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Ftraining-guides+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fopenstack-doc-tools+OR+project%3Astackforge%2Fclouddocs-maven-plugin+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fha-guide%29+status%3Aopen+NOT+owner%3Aself+NOT+label%3AWorkflow%3C%3D-1+label%3AVerified%3E%3D1%252cjenkins+NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3C%3D-1%252cself+NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3E%3D1%252cself&title=Ops%2FUser+Do14:54
annegentlecs+Review+Inbox&&Needs+feedback+%28Changes+older+than+5+days+that+have+not+been+reviewed+by+anyone%29=NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3C%3D2+age%3A5d&Specs=project%3Aopenstack%2Fdocs-specs+status%3Aopen&API+Docs=%28project%3Aopenstack%2Fapi-site+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fobject-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fimage-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fidentity-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fcompute-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fvolume-ap14:54
annegentlei+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fnetconn-api%29+status%3Aopen&Ops%2FAdmin+Docs=%28project%3Aopenstack%2Fopenstack-manuals+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Foperations-guide+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fsecurity-doc%29+status%3Aopen&Training=project%3Aopenstack%2Ftraining-guides&Doc+Tools=%28project%3Aopenstack%2Fopenstack-doc-tools+OR+project%3Astackforge%2Fclouddocs-maven-plugin%29+status%3Aopen&You+are+a+reviewer+%28but+haven%27t+v14:54
annegentleoted+in+the+current+revision%29=reviewer%3Aself&Needs+final+%2B2=%28project%3Aopenstack%2Fopenstack-manuals+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fapi-site+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fobject-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fimage-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fidentity-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fcompute-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fvolume-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fnetconn-api+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Foperations-guide+OR+project%3Aop14:54
Sam-I-Amaaaaaaaaa14:54
annegentleenstack%2Fsecurity-doc+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Ftraining-guides+OR+project%3Aopenstack%2Fha-guide%29+label%3ACode-Review%3E%3D2+limit%3A50&Passed+Jenkins+%28with+no+negative+feedback%29=NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3E%3D2+NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3C%3D-1+limit%3A50&Wayward+Changes+%28Changes+with+no+code+review+in+the+last+two+days%29=NOT+label%3ACode-Review%3C%3D2+age%3A2d14:54
annegentleoh lordy14:54
annegentlesorry14:54
AJaegerand it' not only my patches...14:54
nickchase:)14:54
nickchasethanks14:54
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annegentle#link http://is.gd/JAHGeA14:54
Sam-I-Ami try to do reviews, but been stuck on a lot of other things14:54
Sam-I-Am(like git problems)14:54
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annegentleit's a problem I've been wanting for years, so bring it on14:55
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Sam-I-Ami would like to get this in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/158983/14:56
Sam-I-Ambecause then i can convert the others similarly14:56
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AJaegerSam-I-Am, I left a question on that one - you spoke about migration but where is the original? IT's not in git...14:56
Sam-I-AmAJaeger: its in my personal git repo14:57
Sam-I-AmAJaeger: as are the other scenarios14:57
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annegentleSam-I-Am: is Lana working on it as a template for the other scenarios?14:57
AJaegerSam-I-Am, everybody was looking in openstack-manuals for it. ;(14:57
AJaegerSam-I-Am, next time state where it comes from so that it's clear.14:57
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Sam-I-AmAJaeger: we decided to contribute technical content outside of gerrit so contributors could avoid the docs tool chain and -1 stuff.14:58
AJaegercould you comment there, please?14:58
AJaegerSam-I-Am, there is content in openstack-manuals that is similar to what you contribute - so now you confuse users.14:58
AJaegerState next time: Import from XXX of this content14:58
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Sam-I-AmAJaeger: ok i can do that14:59
AJaegerMigration is for me the thing we do in the user-guide - a 1:1 copy of existing content in openstack-manual in XML to RST14:59
nickchaseAJaeger the problem is that it's taken too long to get things merged14:59
AJaegerannegentle, time is out, we have to leave14:59
annegentleAJaeger: ayup15:00
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annegentleOkay!15:00
annegentleThanks all for attending15:00
annegentle#endmeeting15:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings"15:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Mar 11 15:00:24 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-03-11-14.01.html15:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-03-11-14.01.txt15:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-03-11-14.01.log.html15:00
annegentleContinue in #openstack-doc as you like15:00
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Sam-I-Amsee y'all later. off to the next meeting.15:00
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thingee#startmeeting cinder16:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Mar 11 16:00:00 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is thingee. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'cinder'16:00
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thingeehi everyone!16:00
tbarronhi16:00
bswartzhi16:00
deepakcshi all16:00
xyanghi16:00
murugang-brcdhi16:00
scottdahi16:00
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deepakcso/16:00
kaisers2hi16:00
gary-smith_hi16:00
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e0nehi16:00
rhe00hi16:00
smcginnishowdy16:00
thingeeso I've been MIA getting feedback at the ops meetup and doing patches here and there. Just wanted to say you all did an awesome job in my absense16:00
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Swansonhello16:01
thingeeseriously look at this https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/kilo-316:01
thingeeso much green!16:01
cebrunshi16:01
kmartinhello16:01
eharneyhi16:01
jgravelhello16:01
jungleboyjo/16:01
geguileohi16:01
thingeeso thanks everyone for making k-3 successful with Cinder16:01
patrickeasthey16:01
terrylhoweo/16:01
thingeeclosing remarks on multi-attach for me16:02
thingeeI'm not upset that this is merging. I gave my comments, but ultimately it's up to the community on the direction, so it's merging for k-316:02
thingeejust want to recognize hemna for his hard work on this.16:02
thingeeand everyone testing/reviewing things16:02
jgriffitho/16:02
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hemnathanks to everyone for the help and understanding.16:03
thingeeok enough me cheerleading...lets get starteD!16:03
hemnathe work isn't done, and I'll follow up and finish it off.16:03
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thingeeagenda for today: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings#Next_meeting16:03
DuncanTAye, well persevered, Walt16:03
jungleboyjhemna: Thank you!16:03
thingee#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CinderMeetings#Next_meeting16:03
thingee#topic  Cinder supports several target objects now for the lvm driver16:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Cinder supports several target objects now for the lvm driver (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:04
thingeehemna: hi16:04
hemnaso yah16:04
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thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/158829/16:04
hemnaI though of this issue when I was reviewing the IeT target driver16:04
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hemnaand realized that I don't think we are CI'ing all of the different target drivers that land16:04
hemnaand I wanted to raise the issue and see how we can make sure that the targets get CI'd/gated16:05
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thingeehemna: +116:05
hemnasince they fundamentally change how some drivers that use them work, namely lvm16:05
jgriffithhemna: nope, we're not and we never have16:05
thingeeI agree and I think it's fair after me requesting this from zone manager drivers16:05
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asselin_o/16:05
eharneyshould note that IET is not exactly new, though16:05
jgriffitheharney: +116:06
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hemnaeharney, yah I know, but what is new is the target mechanism16:06
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thingeejgriffith even asked for this with LIO16:06
hemnaand ensuring that they all get tested/gated16:06
jgriffithas I've explained multiple times, IET has been in place since nova-volume16:06
eharneyjust important for context16:06
hemnaeharney, +116:06
jgriffithI'm fine if somebody wants to propose either adding it to the gate/CI or deprecating in next release16:06
hemnathingee, yah especially if we add LIO with all of it's possible transports16:06
eharneyadding/deprecating what exactly?16:07
jgriffitheharney: that question for me?16:07
eharneyjgriffith: yes16:07
flip214hemna: what's the status of the various ways? in the DRBD-for-nova patch I had to add support to brick, target driver, and the real implementation... which of these should survice?16:07
jgriffitheharney: so IET inparticular16:08
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jgriffitheharney: we need to do something with LIO as well IMO (although I know RHEL does work here)16:08
thingeejgriffith: so does datera16:08
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thingeejgriffith: we wrote the damn thing :)16:08
hemna:P16:08
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jgriffiththingee: well... my point was RHEL deploys with it16:08
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jgriffiththingee: they use it with LVM in packstack deploys16:09
hemnaflip214, not sure I understand the question sorry.16:09
thingeejgriffith: so do we, although those are POC's :D16:09
jgriffiththingee: ok, good for you :)  That's not my point though16:09
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jgriffiththingee: my point is that we should have some visible testing16:09
thingeejgriffith: anyways I think it's fine for these to be within CI's of drivers is fine?16:09
jgriffiththat's all16:09
thingeejgriffith: +116:09
jgriffiththingee: eharney I'd also like to ask if anybody thinks we should limit target options?16:10
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hemnajgriffith, +116:10
flip214hemna: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156212/ had to touch brick, target driver, and then provide the implementation just to get the codepaths to work.16:10
jgriffiththingee: eharney I think I floated the idea of making LIO default and dropping some others in the past but I don't think we were ready16:10
thingeejgriffith: I would disagree with that, mainly because I'm not sure why LIO should be limited to just ISCSI16:10
geguileojgriffith: In what sense?16:10
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jgriffiththingee: no no.. .that's not what I mean16:10
flip214will any of these get cleaned up before L, so that I can drop some bits of that patch?16:10
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thingeejgriffith: oh ok16:10
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eharneywhat's the thinking there?16:10
jungleboyjforgive my ignorance, but how many different targets are we talking about?16:11
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jgriffiththingee: what I mean is we now have IET, TgtADM, LIO and then all the crazy variants that went in this release16:11
DuncanTthingee: I think testing them as part of a driver CI is fine, though some way of tracing what is tested where would be useful16:11
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hemnaflip214, hadn't seen that one yet, so I can't really comment just yet.   can chat about it in #cinder if you like after the meeting16:11
jgriffiththingee: do we want to keep dragging alll of these?16:11
thingeeDuncanT: +116:11
eharneyjungleboyj: i think we're at about 5 total now?16:11
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jgriffiththingee: or do we want to pick say LIO and deprecate drop IET and TGT16:11
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thingeejgriffith: might change after a certain session in vancouver16:11
jungleboyjeharney: Thanks.16:11
hemnaDuncanT, +1.  That's exactly what I was hoping for16:11
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jgriffiththingee: ?16:11
* thingee looks around secretly16:11
jungleboyjDuncanT: +216:12
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jgriffithwell.. not sure anybody else has a concern on this; so I'll step back16:12
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jgriffithI am concerened about the matrix of targets and drivers but guess it's ok16:13
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hemnajgriffith, I think that might be a valid but separate discussion ?16:13
smcginnisjgriffith: +116:13
thingeejgriffith: do we have a matrix problem with target drivers?16:13
hemnajgriffith, well I am concerned as well, which is why I was bringing the topic of CI for the various targets up.16:13
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jgriffiththingee: well... IMO yeah, kinda16:13
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* thingee feels dumb for not knowing this16:13
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jgriffiththingee: LVM can use one of 4 tgt drivers now16:14
thingeejgriffith: I thought abc is enforced with the target class?16:14
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* thingee might be confused16:14
jgriffiththingee: but that's not the point16:14
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jgriffiththingee: enforcing abc is fine, but it doesn't mean it's getting tested or works well16:14
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jgriffiththingee: and it does't mean we get to focus on improving maintaining "one" thing16:14
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jgriffithbut as hemna said, maybe thisis a different topic?16:15
thingeejgriffith: true, look at the bandaid fix I did with tgt16:15
thingeewith acls missing16:15
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thingeethat would've been annoying to keep in gate come close to march 19th16:15
hemnalets make migration to LIO target a topic in Vancouver ?16:15
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jungleboyjhemna: +116:15
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thingeehemna: I would like that, but I think I need to spend more time making things more accessible for everyone as jgriffith pointed out16:15
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jungleboyjTHis seems like something that we need to be in a room to discuss.16:16
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smcginnisI agree with hemna's point that of we have all these options, we should make sure they are covered by CI.16:16
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thingeeand accessible I mean easier for people using debian based systems.16:16
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thingeeanyways that's a whole other topic16:16
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hemnathingee, yah that sounds good, but another topic :P16:16
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thingeeso I think we agree with hemna that we need CI here.16:16
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hemnasorrison, LIO improvements :)16:16
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thingeehemna: I can put together a proposal?16:16
hemnagah, xchat16:16
DuncanTjgriffith: ++16:16
hemnathingee, +116:16
thingeefor L timeline16:16
hemnathat sounds great.16:17
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thingeejgriffith: I would like to understand more on the feature matrix of the target drivers too16:17
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thingeejgriffith: because I was not aware of this, sounds interesting16:17
hemnaI see 5 or 6 targets in there now.16:17
thingee#action thingee to make CI proposal for target drivers in cinder16:17
hemnafc should be another, but that will hopefully get covered by LIO16:17
thingee#action thingee to discuss with jgriffith about feature matrix in target driver16:18
thingeehemna: +116:18
eharneyhemna: plus RDMA variants etc16:18
thingeehemna: anything else?16:18
thingeeor anyone else?16:18
hemnaI'm good.16:18
hemnaeharney, +116:18
thingeenvme is about to land in LIO too ;D16:18
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* thingee thingee raises the roof16:18
jgriffitheharney: +116:19
thingee#topic Make public Volume Snapshots16:19
hemnaw00t16:19
*** openstack changes topic to "Make public Volume Snapshots (Meeting topic: cinder)"16:19
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thingeeno name, you're up!16:19
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thingeeoh16:19
thingeerushiagr: hi16:19
thingeerakesh_mishra_: hi16:19
rushiagro/16:20
thingeeblueprint:16:20
rakesh_mishra_hi16:20
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thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125045/16:20
thingeepatch:16:20
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159372/16:20
e0nelooks too late for Kilo: blueprint is not targeted, code should be rebased16:20
thingeee0ne: +116:20
thingeegetting that out of the way, what did we want to discuss with this rushiagr ?16:20
* DuncanT is still against to cencept16:20
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rushiagrthingee: about the idea16:21
rushiagrthingee: if people still see this as something not required for cinder16:21
e0neDuncanT: maybe spec will give us more details?16:21
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125045/16:22
thingeee0ne: ^16:22
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jgriffithrushiagr: I'm still kinda of opposed, and I still ask: "why"16:22
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jgriffithrushiagr: that's what we did volume_transfer for16:22
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thingeethe last time we discussed this, we wanted better use cases.16:22
* thingee checks if the spec has been updated with that info16:23
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jgriffithrushiagr: there are a number of complexities that this is going to add IMO and I don't see much gain16:23
e0neoops. i missed link for spec in bp16:23
jgriffithother than "it's nifty"16:23
thingeerushiagr: the spec still doesn't included added use cases16:23
thingeerushiagr: which is what we asked for the last time this was brought up in the meeting16:23
* thingee has a spec to require this in specs. it'll be great16:24
thingeespec update rather16:24
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jungleboyj:-)  Specs for specs.16:24
rushiagrthingee: I think that was for sharing snapshots with a particular tenant..16:24
jgriffithjungleboyj: hehe16:24
hemnajungleboyj, and a template for those spec specs, with hacking checks.16:24
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thingeeit's hacking checks all the way down16:24
jungleboyj:-)16:25
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* jungleboyj gets my hacking check writing hat out.16:25
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thingeerushiagr: yeah I still don't get why someone wants to do that. I think we've discussed just sharing images before?16:25
rushiagrjgriffith: I think 'nifty' is a good thing to have..16:25
DuncanTrushiagr: --16:25
jgriffithrushiagr: sure, depending on the cost16:25
e0nejgriffith: +116:25
patrickeasti am a fan of this feature, saves a lot of time creating volumes from a base snapshot instead of image for arrays like ours where its basically a no-op to create volume from snapshot16:26
patrickeastwithout having to put in a image cache kind of thing16:26
jgriffithrushiagr: so IMO if we're going to promote snapshots like this we need to revisit our stance on what "snapshots are" and how they'r eused16:26
thingeerushiagr: so here's the thing, I'm not hearing a strong reason to have this from folks. do you have users in mind who are really wanting this? and if so, can they speak why?16:26
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e0nepatrickeast, rushiagr: what is the _real_ usecases from users and/or operators?16:26
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jgriffithpatrickeast: good point... but why does it matter if it's shared or private to tenant?16:26
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rushiagrjgriffith: I don't think this breaks our definition of a snapshot. A user will still need to create a vol out of this (publicly shared, owned by a different guy) snapshot16:26
DuncanTpatrickeast: I'd rather you put time into image caching and better glance integration, and get fast BfV as a side effect of this usecase16:27
jgriffithpatrickeast: you mean so tenants don't have duplicate templates?16:27
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thingeeDuncanT: +116:27
jgriffithpatrickeast: I'm not sure in the real world there's the "common" template model everybody seems to envision here16:27
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patrickeastjgriffith: yea, i'm not sure how much demand there really is for sharing them between tenants16:27
xyangpatrickeast: I actually have a customer who is interested in this feature for the same reason (create boot volume is too slow)16:28
patrickeastjgriffith: this is something i've heard from our sales guys in the field asking for though16:28
jgriffithpatrickeast: that's the sticking point for me really16:28
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jgriffithpatrickeast: hmm... interesting16:28
jgriffithpatrickeast: be wary of the sales request :)16:28
patrickeasthehe yea16:28
DuncanTxyang: See my previous comments about just creating an image cache on the array16:28
jgriffithpatrickeast: I get asked for all sorts of crazy stuff from sales, most of the time they don't even know what a tenant is :)16:28
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xyangDuncanT: ya, that will solve the problem too16:29
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thingeerushiagr: ok, so again I'm going to sound like a broken record on this. Give me use cases, and users actually explaining why they want this.16:29
rushiagrthingee: a customer of us uses the same API with amazon, and wants to use the same thing with openstack as they're planning to move.. I'm not saying amazon has it so do it, though..16:29
jgriffithpatrickeast: xyang DuncanT thingee so rather than publick snapshots... maybe we need to talk in Vancouver about heirarchal access?16:29
DuncanTjgriffith: ???16:30
xyangjgriffith: heirarchal access?16:30
thingeethe amazon case in openstack is kind of not a priority it seems, if you haven't noticed from other projects16:30
jgriffithIIRC vishy proposed something like this a while ago... but I don't remember the details16:30
jungleboyjjgriffith: I thought we had talked about that before.16:30
patrickeastjgriffith: yea either that or maybe a more standardized image cache... if this is something others are going to run into might make sense to put something in that can be shared16:30
rushiagrthingee: agree.. But I'm not seeing the downsides of this feature as well...16:30
jgriffithDuncanT: so something like "tenant-A includes tenant-B, tenant-C...."16:31
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thingeerushiagr: I'm not hearing a huge want for this feature either16:31
rushiagrother than 'it's more code'16:31
hemnarushiagr, lots and lots of complexity in the cinder codebase that we have to fix bugs in.16:31
jgriffithDuncanT: things can be created for only tenant-A16:31
xyangjgriffith: I see.16:31
jgriffithor the parent tenant16:31
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jgriffithI don't know where it ended up, but I liked it WAY better than the crazy ACL stuff that was going around16:31
DuncanTjgriffith: How much support does keystone have for that? They were looking at it16:31
thingeeanyways, summit session I guess. get users feedback there. since it seems like this is not being answered in the spec.16:31
thingeeI get you can share to different tenants.16:31
jgriffithDuncanT: sorry, I have zero details insight on where it ended up16:32
thingeethat's not a use case16:32
DuncanTjgriffith: If keystone has sorted it, then sure we should investigate16:32
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e0nethingee: +1. we need to discuss it more16:32
jgriffiththere was a working group that started but I don't know where it went16:32
jgriffithI'm happy to look into it if people are interested16:32
jgriffithbring back any info next week16:32
thingeejgriffith: +116:32
jgriffithIt might be dead for all I know :)16:32
thingeehaha16:32
xyangjgriffith: that will be nice16:32
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thingee#action jgriffith to get feedback for next meeting, if some working group is not dead.16:33
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thingee#agreed potential summit session on this16:33
jgriffithhttp://goo.gl/kcBHDt16:33
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vishyyou talking about hierachical multitenancy?16:33
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jgriffithvishy: yeah :)16:33
thingeea vishy appears!16:33
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vishythe code is in keystone16:33
jgriffithvishy: just posted link to wiki16:33
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thingeerushiagr: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/cinder-liberty-proposed-sessions16:33
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jgriffithvishy: awesome16:34
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jgriffiththingee: rushiagr DuncanT xyang so I'd propose we look at that path instead16:34
thingeejgriffith: +116:35
jgriffithpatrickeast: you too :)16:35
patrickeastsounds good16:35
vishyand nested-quota-support is proposed for nova16:35
xyangjgriffith: sure, thanks16:35
DuncanTjgriffith: Image cache magic is the way forward IMO16:35
vishynot sure if it made it in yet16:35
rushiagrI'll have a look..16:35
thingee#agreed potential hierarchy code in Keystone might solve this16:35
thingeerushiagr: anything else?16:35
thingeeor anyone else on this?16:35
jgriffithvishy: looks like part of it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129420/16:35
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129420/16:36
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rushiagrthingee: nope16:36
thingeerushiagr: thanks16:36
vishynope didn’t make it: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151677/16:36
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151677/16:36
jgriffithL it is :)16:36
vishyimplementing it is essentially updating quotas to support nested operations16:36
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thingee#topic Code Freeze Exception for Kilo16:37
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vishythen updating the list commands to handle them16:37
thingeeor I guess features only16:37
thingeesince we'll still accept bug fixes at this point16:37
jgriffithvishy: well, we have a reference to work off of, and looks like it will start moving in L16:37
thingeetbarron: hi16:37
vishyget operations should work because roles are inherited16:37
jgriffithvishy: so we can have some consistency16:37
tbarroni want to thank xyang, jungleboyj, e0ne for awesome help getting the swift backup refactor through16:37
thingeewe'll start with you, because I'm getting this left and right16:37
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thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056508.html16:37
tbarronxyang esp did lots of last minute testing16:37
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tbarronbut all that was for one review of two16:38
thingee#undo16:38
openstackRemoving item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x2c4fc90>16:38
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tbarronthe second was dependent, didn't merge16:38
jungleboyjtbarron: My pleasure.16:38
thingee#link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-March/058814.html16:39
tbarronbut the code has been ready16:39
e0netbarron: it still requiures rebase16:39
thingeetbarron: I would disagree, I think we were waiting around prior to march 10th for new code to posted16:39
thingeeand it's in conflict right now16:39
tbarrone0ne: yeah, i couldn't rebase till the change merged last night16:39
thingeeI think reviewers have been trying to work with you, but reups have been slow16:39
thingeethat's my opinion anyways.16:39
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tbarronand the rebase just got triggered last Friday16:39
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tbarronwith serious changes to Swift16:40
tbarronit wasn't so much a rebase as a rewrite16:40
xyangit was because of my incremental backup patch got merged late16:40
xyangand tbarron had to do a big rebase16:40
thingeexyang: ah ok16:40
tbarronxyang could speak to the complexity16:40
* tbarron notices she just did16:40
tbarronso the hard part is done16:40
xyangswift.py was refactored completed.  incremental backup changed swift.py.  so rebase was complicated16:41
tbarronand the small dependent change got stuck16:41
thingeetbarron: it's still failing and conflicted16:41
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/14972616:41
thingeethis is not ready16:41
xyangI tested the rebased code and it worked16:41
thingeeand we're past deadline16:41
jungleboyjthingee: Yeah, tbarron had to wait for xyang's change.  Didn't realize that we needed to get xyang 's in first and it kind of screwed up tbarron16:41
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thingeeI'm not sure why someone would ask for exception for something that isn't ready right now to be merged.16:41
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thingeeinstead of spending time on writing FFE to the mailing list16:42
tbarronthingee: i respect your decision but the code on which it has to be rebased just merged at right before midnight last night Eastern time16:42
tbarronthingee: I thought I was respecting the process and asking without doiing that was incorrect16:42
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thingeeso who is ready to +2 this now?16:42
jungleboyjthingee: Once he rebases I am happy to look at it again.16:43
vilobhmmi can have a look too16:43
thingeetbarron: you're free to fix your patches as much as you want. I'm just saying it's not ready right now and you're asking for exception.16:43
jungleboyjIt was in good shape before it needed rebase.16:43
thingeejungleboyj: thanks16:43
xyangI can look at it too16:43
e0nethingee: it has +2 from me and jungleboyj before merge conflict. i'll review changes afrer rebase16:43
* DuncanT will certainly review as soon as something is up16:43
jungleboyjtbarron: I don't know, you aren't getting much support here.  ;-)16:44
tbarronI appreciate all the review offers16:44
* tbarron blushes16:44
jungleboyjAwww.16:44
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thingeeok, if people can get this through while I'm flying back and no more back and forth on major issues, fine with me.16:44
thingeegiven that it was 2 X +2 before rebase issues16:45
thingeeI think is fair16:45
DuncanTthingee: ++16:45
xyangthingee: how many hours do we have?:)16:45
thingeehaha16:45
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hemna:)16:45
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jungleboyj:-)16:45
tbarronthingee: thanks, I'll get some code up and make sure it passes all unit tests after rebase before I post it16:45
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jungleboyjthingee: +216:45
tbarronBut this part is thin, so it shouldn't be too bad16:45
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tbarronThanks everyone!16:46
thingeexyang: 7 hours16:46
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thingeethat's more than enough time16:46
xyang:)16:46
kmartintbarron hoping thingee's flight is delayed16:46
e0nejust fyi, queue in gates is more than ~10016:46
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thingeekmartin: :(16:46
tbarronkmartin: +116:46
xyangthingee: where are you now?16:46
tbarronthingee: thanks, i really wouldn't wish that on anyone.16:46
jungleboyjhemna: We are in control again!  ;-)16:46
thingee#agreed NFS backup patch has FFE16:46
thingeeok next16:46
hemna:P16:46
thingeee0ne: hi16:46
tbarronthingee: are you connecting through anywhere?  just curious ..16:47
e0nehi16:47
thingeetbarron: yeah16:47
hemnajungleboyj, hush, dad hasn't left yet....don't blow our cover16:47
thingeee0ne: lets talk shadow tables16:47
e0nethingee: i just want to get -2 from hemna.16:47
e0ne+2 will be better:)16:47
hemnalol16:47
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/131182/16:47
e0nehemna: just a remainder that you put +1 for spec16:48
thingee#agreed e0ne just wants a -216:48
e0neoops..16:48
hemnae0ne, yah understand16:48
* jungleboyj looks sheepish.16:48
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hemnabut I changed my mind after actually looking at what a dev has to do to maintain it over time.16:48
e0nei'll take a look on oslo.db integration for shadow migrations for L16:48
hemna:(16:48
e0nehemna: agree that sqlite downgrades looks ugly:(16:49
thingeealright so what's going on here?16:49
hemnabasically it puts 2x the work on cinder devs for maintaining what turns into archived data for operators.16:49
hemnaI think that cost is too high, IMO16:49
e0nehemna: it's a very reasonable point.16:50
morganfainberghemna, this is regarding a SQL schema migration?16:50
hemnaI had proposed another approach, that's a bit different, but gives operators the ability to offload 'deleted' rows in much the same manner, w/o putting the burden on cinder devs to maintaining 2 schemas16:50
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e0nehere is example: https://github.com/e0ne/cinder/commit/8ae973852fdf11b7c01f9e268361fa1d319846d416:50
hemnainstead of shadow tables, the concept is more like snapshot tables.16:50
thingeeok, so are we sitting on this for L-1? Seems like there is still discussion going on16:51
hemnaif an operator wants to offload those deleted records, they run a new tool, that basically snapshots the existing schema as it is when the tool is run, then migrates out the deleted rows.16:51
hemnathere isn't any thing for a cinder dev to do on a patch by patch basis16:51
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hemnaI'd like to at least have the chance to talk about this approach before we go with the current shadow tables approach.16:52
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hemnaunfortunately it's late in the K timeframe.   :(16:52
morganfainberghemna, fwiw, it looks like the no-downward migrations x-project spec is going to be approved next week. operators are saying they wouldn't perform a schema downgrade. they'd snap-shot and roll back16:52
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morganfainbergbased on feedback from the ops-meetup thing16:52
hemnamorganfainberg, do we have a url for that spec.  I'm unfamiliar with it.16:52
morganfainberghemna,16:52
morganfainberghttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/152337/5/specs/no-downward-sql-migration.rst16:52
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152337/16:52
hemnaI presume it's another approach to dealing with rows that are soft deleted ?16:53
DuncanThemna: The problem with that approach is what you do with existing data is shadow tables once the schema changes16:53
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hemnaor just removing the idea of downward migrations ?16:53
morganfainberghemna, removing the concept of downward migrations16:53
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thingeemorganfainberg: +116:53
hemnaDuncanT, when the schema changes between runs of the tool, you get new schema tables instead.16:53
e0nemorganfainberg: +1. db backups works better16:54
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-sendak.freenode.net- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp16:55
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morganfainbergmaybe that x-project spec will make your lives lots and lots better16:55
hemnaIMO and puts more of a burden on us for reviews and unit tests16:55
e0ne5min reminder16:55
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* morganfainberg wanders back off to let you guys get back to meeting things :)16:55
hemnasorrison, I hate to say this, but can I -2 the shadow tables patch and bring this up in Vancouver ?16:55
hemnaso.16:56
thingeefive minute warning16:56
hemna*sigh*16:56
jungleboyj:-)16:56
e0nehemna: sure. it's reasonable16:56
hemnaif everyone else things shadow tables is fine as is, then I'll let it go16:56
jungleboyjhemna: +116:56
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smcginnishemna: +116:56
jungleboyjI think discussing in Vancouver is a good idea.16:56
e0nei've got very short queation16:56
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hemnae0ne, shoot16:57
DuncanThemna: Your alternative approach sounds reasonable, and worth waiting for16:57
thingee#agreed FFE for shadow tables declined. We'll discuss further at the next summit16:57
e0nehttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/157441/ - rebases, -1 from CI becouse of soume issue with infra16:57
thingeedenied16:57
thingeewhatever16:57
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thingeee0ne: sorry about that16:57
e0newill we merge it?16:57
e0neit's about moving to oslo.log16:57
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hemnaok -2 it is.  sorry e0ne.  Thanks for the effort.  lets work together and do something for L.16:58
e0newe desided on a prev meeting to merge it right after FF16:58
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jungleboyje0ne: Yes, I think that is still the plan.16:58
e0nehemna: it's ok16:58
thingeee0ne: I think for big patches like this it makes sense around this time, as DuncanT requested16:58
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thingeealright I got a plane to catch16:59
thingeethanks everyone for the discussions16:59
e0nethingee:  thanks16:59
jungleboyje0ne: So, lets get that rebased and in.16:59
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thingeeexpect an email from me on CI's in Cinder on the mailing list16:59
e0nejungleboyj: it's rebased16:59
jungleboyje0ne: Sweet.  I will look today then.16:59
DuncanTe0ne: Recheck?16:59
e0nejungleboyj: CI failed. waiting for recheck finished17:00
thingee#endmeeting17:00
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jungleboyje0ne: Ok, will keep an eye on it.17:00
thingee#endmeeting17:00
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jungleboyjNo, really endmeeting.  :-)17:01
e0negreat! thanks everyone for feedback17:01
thingee#endmeeting17:01
thingee#endmeeting17:01
e0ne:)17:01
thingee>.<17:01
thingeeI got a plane to catch dang it17:01
e0nelet's continue:)17:01
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jungleboyj:-_17:01
jungleboyjthingee: Fly safe.17:01
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thingeethanks17:01
thingee#endmeeting17:02
thingeeok that's four times now. what the heck17:02
thingeejeblair: not sure if you can force the bot to endmeeting? :)17:02
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jungleboyjSomething weird was going on with IRC during the meeting.  Wonder if it got messed up.17:03
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thingeejeblair: got a plane to catch and don't want to leave the meeting room like this17:03
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thingee#endmeeting17:04
jeblairthingee: ack, catch your plane :)17:04
geguileothingee: Since 60 minutes have passed since the start anyone should be able to do #endmeeting17:04
geguileo#endmeeting17:04
jeblairi think the meetbot restarted and lost state :(17:04
thingeedoh17:05
thingeeok, is it fine for me to go? :) I need to get to the airport and stuff17:05
jeblairthingee: yes, go!  i'll take care of it :)17:05
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thingeejeblair: thanks!17:05
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geguileothingee: Safe trip!17:05
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e0ne#startmeeting17:05
openstacke0ne: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee'17:05
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e0ne#endmeeting17:05
e0nehm.. startmeeting works...17:06
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jeblairyes, there is no meeting in progress17:06
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asalkeld#startmeeting heat20:00
openstackMeeting started Wed Mar 11 20:00:30 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is asalkeld. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.20:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.20:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)"20:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'heat'20:00
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skraynev_hehe today it works ;)20:00
zaneb\o/20:00
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spzalaHi20:01
stevebaker /o\20:01
shardyo/20:01
BillArnoldhi20:01
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KarolynChambershi20:01
pas-hao/20:02
asalkeld#topic Adding items to the agenda20:02
*** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)"20:02
asalkeldso far we have #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda20:02
skraynev_I have added one20:02
Tango|2Hi20:02
asalkeldhi Tango|220:03
asalkeldnothing else?20:03
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asalkeld#topic run up to kilo release20:04
*** openstack changes topic to "run up to kilo release (Meeting topic: heat)"20:04
asalkeld#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule20:04
asalkeld(March 19 cut off for features),lets run though what we can get in.20:04
asalkeldthat's one week20:04
asalkeldafaiks20:04
skraynev_time for hard work20:05
asalkeldand we got a *lot*  to get in20:05
asalkeld#link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/kilo-320:05
asalkeldhas anyone seen new progress from tags and breakpoints?20:05
stevebakerhey, everything in code review20:05
shardyasalkeld: yes, I've been testing the latest breakpoint patches today20:06
zanebasalkeld: good progress on breakpoints (hooks)20:06
shardythe heat one is very close IMO20:06
zanebI'm reviewing at the moment20:06
asalkeldok, cool20:06
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shardyheatclient needs a bit more work, I assume shadower is on that already20:06
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zanebshardy: agree. I think it should land this week20:06
inc0any outstanding patches which will affect db schema?20:06
zaneb(the Heat one that is, not the heatclient one)20:07
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mspreitzhi20:07
asalkeldinc0: there are still ~ 3 or 4 convergence patches, tho' smaller20:07
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zanebinc0: pretty sure there are, yes. but all the ones I know are for convergence20:07
asalkeldwe still have convergence, olso versioned objects, keystone resources, tags and breakpoints20:08
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asalkeldstevebaker: you about?20:08
stevebakeryes20:08
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asalkeldwhat's the state of you signalling20:08
asalkeldhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/software-config-swift-signal20:08
stevebakerkeystone resources are in contrib, so surely they are not subject to feature freeze20:08
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asalkeldstevebaker: as long as they don't effect the string freeze20:09
skraynev_asalkeld: also Mistral resources20:09
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asalkeldskraynev_: yeah phew that's right20:09
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stevebakerasalkeld: hmm, is i18n applied to contrib? It probably shouldn't be20:09
asalkeldstevebaker: honestly not sure20:10
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asalkeldstevebaker: is software-config-swift-signal done?20:10
stevebakerasalkeld: everything in heat has landed for software-config-trigger and swift signalling. Review on this related heatclient change is needed though https://review.openstack.org/#/c/160240/20:11
asalkeldok, that's right20:11
asalkeldsay do we offically use heatclient blueprints?20:11
asalkeld there are some20:12
asalkeldthey look forgotten20:12
asalkeldhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-heatclient20:12
stevebakeroccasionally. I'd rather use feature bugs20:12
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asalkeldyeah, i'd rather not use them20:12
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asalkeldso zaneb have you looked at the convergence reviews today?20:13
asalkeldany major issues?20:13
zanebnot today20:13
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asalkeld6am for me, just got up20:14
stevebakerIs there a way of knowing which is the highest priority convergence reviews required other than blueprint priority?20:14
zanebI don't think it matters whether those patches land before FF20:14
asalkeldschema changes20:14
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asalkeldzaneb: there is a string freeze20:14
skraynev_zaneb: could you please take a look on my answers / question for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/161306/20:14
skraynev_if you have a minute ;)20:15
asalkeldso we *could* commit with commented out logs:-O20:15
zanebasalkeld: yeah, we may have to stop landing stuff between FF and RC20:15
inc0I've taken a look now -  I can't see anything affecting my patches if I haven't miss anything20:15
asalkeldinc0: you should be able to get in stack and template20:15
zanebbut it's not like convergence is going to be a working thing in Kilo either way20:15
shardyzaneb: you mean it's too late to land anything amounting to useful, so we may as well wait until we branch?20:15
shardyok, cool20:16
zanebyes20:16
asalkeldthere is some more resource stuff20:16
inc0asalkeld, its already ready....before k3 I'd love to have Resource as well, as its critical object20:16
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zanebI mean, if we can land stuff safely, then by all means land it (even during FF)20:16
inc0I think if we are careful, given resource and stack objects lands, we should be good with database compatibility for upgrade k->l20:17
asalkeldzaneb: you not worried about string freeze?20:17
asalkeldi guess bugs change strings20:17
zanebasalkeld: we should take that into account when landing stuff20:17
shardyIMO we shouldn't be landing convergence rearchitecting during FF20:17
zanebsome things should definitely not land after FF/SF and before the branch20:18
asalkeldonly minor things20:18
zanebother things probably can, so long as they are not called anywhere20:18
zanebdon't add strings20:18
zaneb&c.20:18
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asalkeldi am ok with that20:18
zanebno db migrations during that period, obvs20:19
asalkeldwe won't be too long out of business20:19
zaneb(but new tables might be ok)20:19
shardyOk, providing we're not making structural changes to existing code then fair enough20:19
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asalkeldwe all good with this topic?20:20
zaneb+120:20
shardy+120:20
asalkeld#topic Thoughts on spec for balancing scaling groups across AZs20:20
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*** openstack changes topic to "Thoughts on spec for balancing scaling groups across AZs (Meeting topic: heat)"20:20
asalkeld#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105907/20:20
KarolynChambersHi, we have added comments to address some of thequestions with this, so wondering on people's thoughts20:21
mspreitznot some, all20:21
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asalkeldKarolynChambers: it's been a while since i looked at that20:21
KarolynChamberswanted to get it on the  radar again so to speak20:22
stevebakerKarolynChambers, mspreitz: Would this mean implementing an az scheduler in heat?20:23
mspreitzthat's a pretty heavy weight wording for what we have in mind20:23
zaneball of my context on this got paged out :/20:23
mspreitzwe propose a simple counting scheme20:23
inc0stevebaker, or using gantt:) but I'm more concerned about having to implement logic which will ensure that volume will be in same az as instacne...for example20:23
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asalkeldmspreitz:  KarolynChambers it might be better to raise after branching when we can give it proper time20:23
inc0and all that stuff20:24
asalkeldwe are all super focused on kilo20:24
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mspreitzinc0: deliberately not making Heat into holistic scheduler here20:24
asalkeldit's not long away20:24
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zanebinc0: there is a way to do that, you use get_attr on the server to supply the AZ to the volume20:24
mspreitzzaneb: problem is not really that complex.  Scaling group has homogenous members20:25
mspreitzall we propose is that heat counts members in each az20:25
pas-hamspreitz, I wonder what's the plan when a given AZ refuses an instance (no valid host found)?20:26
inc0well, sure, its nothing that can't be solved.20:26
stevebakermspreitz: but heat is making placement decisions based on some algorithm (albeit a simple one). We've been deferring getting into this area until gantt is available to consume20:26
inc0pas-ha, I guess CREATE_ERROR -> same as now if nova throws20:26
mspreitzwe can not defer to gantt, it has no interface for choosing which group member to remove20:26
mspreitzon scale down20:26
mspreitzinc0: yes, proposal here is very simple20:27
pas-hainc0, but then the point of balancing is fainting20:27
mspreitzwell, proposal is vague on that point, initial impl is simple20:27
mspreitzproposal is vague, allows impl to try again elsewhere20:27
shardyDoes anyone know if e.g Neutron has full support for Availability Zones?20:27
asalkeldnot sure shardy20:28
inc0I don't think so20:28
mspreitzshardy: not relevant20:28
inc0network node is still az-agnostic20:28
mspreitzwe are just looking for a way for heat to make AZ choice that eventually gets to whatever template author cares it to20:28
inc0but I agree with mspreitz - it will provide some measure of safety without too much problems I guess20:28
shardymspreitz: so if you can't have per-AZ l3 networks, what happens when an AZ goes down containing the Neutron services?20:28
inc0if we keep this thing naive20:28
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inc0shardy, is that our problems or nova's?:)20:29
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shardyadding just instance support for the AWS resource kinda makes sense, but folks want to scale stacks containing more than just instances with the native resources20:29
inc0or neutrons20:29
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mspreitzshardy: when an AZ goes down it is entirely unavailable of course, when the impl graduates to handling refusals it will naturally cover that20:30
shardyinc0: I guess I'm just asking if the feature will be crippled die to being nova-centric that's all20:30
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shardys/die/due20:30
mspreitzNova is not the only thing that knows AZ20:30
mspreitzCinder does too20:30
mspreitzbut that is not critical here20:30
mspreitzthe idea is that template author applies this only where relevant20:30
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shardymspreitz: Ok, I'm just trying to understand the gaps, given that we don't place any restrictions on what resources can be scaled out20:30
mspreitzshardy: OK, let me do case analysis20:31
stevebakerI guess that is up to the user20:31
zanebshardy: I don't see how that's our problem20:31
mspreitzcase 1: scaling group of OS::Nova::Server or Cinder volume --- clear to all, I suppose20:31
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mspreitzcase 2: scaling group of atomic resource that does not support AZ - user does not ask for balancing across AZ20:32
mspreitzcase 3: scaling group of stack - template author propagates AZ param to relevant resources, recurse on the case analysis20:32
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inc0well, I for one think this is nice feature to be added, but its Liberty anyway20:33
shardymspreitz: I guess the question is, do we bear any responsibility to communicate to the user if the scaled unit is only partially balanced over AZs20:33
shardymaybe we don't care, and we just document known limitations20:33
mspreitzThe user can already query that info, albeit not very conveniently20:33
mspreitzadding convenient query would be a nice add20:33
pas-haas far as I understood user chooses herself what resources in a nested stack to pas the az param, so user is aware of what is balanced20:34
mspreitzright20:35
mspreitzbut question is how does user know results20:35
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asalkeldok, mspreitz it looks like people don't have a big problem with the spec20:35
asalkeldjust minor questions20:35
pas-haan implicit output, mapping resource names to az's20:35
mspreitzOn querying results, I think that can/should be addressed as a later add20:35
asalkeldcan we handle as normal? and attack it in L?20:36
pas-halike OS::StackID20:36
mspreitzOK, actually, we could do that via attribute20:36
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mspreitzasalkeld: pls clarify what "it"20:36
asalkeldthe blueprint20:36
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pas-haspec and imlementation20:36
asalkeld(as in do it)20:36
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mspreitzKarolyn is closer to driving need now, I think20:37
mspreitzKarolyn, delay to L OK?20:37
asalkeldmspreitz: you could also add to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-heat-sessions20:37
mspreitzIMHO scheduler hints are higher priority20:37
stevebakerKarolynChambers: I've +1ed, but would like an evaluation of gantt in the Alternatives section20:37
inc0mspreitz, it would be hard for it to land in kilo as there is 1 week left and bp isnt merged even;)20:38
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KarolynChambersstevebaker: okay, I will look at gantt20:38
mspreitzstevebaker: there *is* an evaluation in the Alternatives of defering to other scheduler20:38
asalkeldlets move on20:38
inc0also clarification how to solve resource groups with az-agnostic resources would be nice20:38
mspreitzGantt has no interface for choosing which to delete on scale down20:38
mspreitzinc0: that is not a problem20:39
stevebakermspreitz: yet20:39
mspreitzIf Gantt *did* have an interface for choosing which to delete, Heat would need to invoke it.... individuals are identified in the generated template20:39
asalkeldmspreitz: what stevebaker is suggesting is should we work with gantt to add some of functionality there20:40
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asalkeldand look into that20:40
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asalkeldhow would that work, would it be better20:40
mspreitzakalkeld: that does not get this issue entirely out of Heat, generated template identifies individuals20:40
asalkeldcould others, not using heat benefit20:40
asalkeldmspreitz: totally we would still need some work in heat20:41
mspreitzOK, so we are on to L for this.20:41
asalkeld#topic Documentation options for stack lifecycle scheduler hints20:41
*** openstack changes topic to "Documentation options for stack lifecycle scheduler hints (Meeting topic: heat)"20:41
asalkeld#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130294/20:41
stevebakeryes, that is what I am suggesting. Or use gantt for initial placement, and logic in heat for removal. I just want to see that analysis. The Alternatives just talks about nova. My idealised notion of gantt is that it is a completely generic service for putting $things in $places20:41
KarolynChambersi think people were oka ywith the code but asalked you had a comment in the spec about documentation being needed20:41
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asalkeldKarolynChambers: looking - it's been a while20:42
KarolynChamberswhat are the options for documentation? more documentation in the spec? or is there some other place to document?20:42
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asalkeldheat/doc/source is one option20:43
KarolynChambersdo people have a preference for where you'd like to see?20:43
asalkeldKarolynChambers: i am concerned with hooks as 1. devs need to know what there are20:43
KarolynChambersunderstand20:44
asalkeldso they don't regress20:44
asalkeldand a user might want to use them too20:44
asalkeldso what is it for and how do i use it20:44
pas-haand how to set it up20:44
asalkeldyip20:44
KarolynChambersagreed20:44
mspreitzwell, the usage we have in mind is not something users would be doing20:45
mspreitzit is for operators20:45
asalkeldmspreitz: i more mean operartors20:45
asalkeldKarolynChambers: you happy with that?20:45
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asalkeldanyone got better idea for docs?20:45
skraynev_nope20:46
asalkeldKarolynChambers: topic done?20:46
KarolynChambersyes20:46
KarolynChambersthank you20:46
asalkeldnp20:46
asalkeld#topic Work to get WSGI services runnable inside Apache/nginx20:46
*** openstack changes topic to "Work to get WSGI services runnable inside Apache/nginx (Meeting topic: heat)"20:46
pas-halet's have them at least somewhere first, then decide what is the best place for them20:46
skraynev_http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/057359.html20:46
skraynev_currently keystone and other services want to deprecate eventlet and use apache for these purposes20:47
skraynev_do we want be in this tream?20:47
inc0uhh...20:47
skraynev_and do the same thing in L ?20:47
asalkeldskraynev_: sure20:47
asalkeldit's quite easy20:48
inc0this increases comlexity of installation - adds new component20:48
stevebakerfor heat-api*, sure20:48
zanebthis only applies to the API though, of course20:48
pas-hayes, api only20:48
inc0but I guess if ks will do it anyway...20:48
asalkeldinc0: we can have it as an option for starters20:48
zaneb+120:49
stevebakerimagine a cloud with every service on a single IP, port 8020:49
asalkeldand still have a binary for things like devstack20:49
pas-haor a fance checker that there is suitable backend available :)20:49
skraynev_stevebaker: dreams :)20:49
stevebakerwell, 44320:49
skraynev_dreams - > reality20:49
asalkeldskraynev_: seems like a small spec20:50
pas-ha+120:50
asalkeld#topic open discussion20:50
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)"20:50
skraynev_ok, so if all agree with this I will add bp and spec for L.20:50
inc0how does this work with asyncio idea?20:50
asalkeldinc0: hope that doesn't happen:-O20:50
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stevebakerinc0: that is something we can consider for heat-engine20:50
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inc0stevebaker, do we really want to support 2 types of runtime?;)20:51
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asalkeldinc0: that's the idea20:51
stevebakerinc0: I said consider, not adopt20:51
inc0but meh, apache will be easy enough20:51
inc0if it helps, why not20:51
asalkeldapi use apache, engines/workers use "something"20:51
pas-hanot sure why, as devstack would have apache available anyway for keystone20:52
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asalkeldeventlet/fork/threads20:52
stevebakerworker20:52
stevebakers20:52
pas-haand it already has it for horizon20:52
inc0my point is rather...why do it?;)20:52
zanebinc0: read the thread20:52
asalkeldinc0: it also give operators some options20:53
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asalkeldand easy to do20:53
pas-haapache/nginx is a proven production grade concurrent web server, better than eventlet-driven python20:53
stevebakereventlet has issues, and at least for APIs moving to web servers is an easy solution20:53
inc0fair enough20:53
inc0btw, open topic: heat memory consumption20:54
inc0shardy mentioned it today, might be good to take a look20:54
asalkeld#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-heat-sessions20:54
asalkeld?20:54
asalkeldare we using more memory than normal?20:54
shardyyeah, everyone I did some testing today of a TripleO seed with multiple workers20:54
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shardyheat-engine with 4 workers peaked at over 2G memory usage :-O20:55
shardyworse, even, than nova-api20:55
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zanebthat's... a lot20:55
asalkeldshardy: i suspect root_stack is somewhat to blame20:55
shardyif anyone has existing thoughts on steps to improve that, it'd be good to start enumerating them as bugs and working through20:55
inc0yeah...and template validation20:55
asalkeldwe need to kill root_stack20:56
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shardyasalkeld: yeah, I'm sure you're right20:56
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inc0or try to offload something to db20:56
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asalkeldthat will load every stack in every stack (if that makes sense)20:57
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shardyShall I just raise a "heat-engine is a memory hog" bug, and we can capture ideas there on how to fix it?20:57
shardyalso, does Rally help with quantifying such things, or only performance?20:57
asalkeldshardy: as a task to make specific bugs20:57
inc0or lets talk in Vancouver?20:57
asalkeldinc0: it's really an investigation isn't it20:58
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shardyinc0: I'm not sure it really warrants summit time, we just need to do the analysis and fix the code ;)20:58
asalkeldsomeone needs to figure out what all the problems are20:58
asalkeldloading templates and files into mem20:58
inc0profiler for the rescue;)20:58
asalkeld2 mins ...20:59
asalkeldok, that's mostly it. Thanks all!21:00
skraynev_bb21:00
asalkeld#endmeeting21:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:00
skraynev_good night21:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Mar 11 21:00:18 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-03-11-20.00.html21:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-03-11-20.00.txt21:00
stevebakerwe had (have) an experimental rally ci job. I wonder if we could get it to collect memory stats21:00
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2015/heat.2015-03-11-20.00.log.html21:00
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