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| enikanorov_ | neutron lbaas meeting in 3 minutes | 13:57 |
|---|---|---|
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| enikanorov_ | hi | 13:59 |
| enikanorov_ | who's online for lbaas meeting? | 13:59 |
| sbalukoff | Hello! | 13:59 |
| aburaschi | hello! o/ | 13:59 |
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| blogan | hello! | 14:00 |
| vivek-ebay | hi | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: rm_work: ping | 14:00 |
| mestery | I have to go afk now, I'll read the scollback later folks! | 14:00 |
| Youcef | hi | 14:00 |
| jorgem | hello | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, looks like we have quorum | 14:00 |
| sballe_ | morning | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | #startmeeting neutron lbaas | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 29 14:00:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is enikanorov_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:00 |
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| dougwig | morning | 14:00 |
| enikanorov_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/LBaaS#Agenda | 14:00 |
| xgerman_ | morning | 14:01 |
| enikanorov_ | this is the agenda for the meeting | 14:01 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: do you want to give an update on the blueprint? | 14:01 |
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| blogan | sure | 14:01 |
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| blogan | i updated the BP to reflect the change to 1:M LoadBalancer to Listener | 14:02 |
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| enikanorov_ | is there an agreement on N:M vs 1:M? | 14:02 |
| blogan | Unless there are objections to this, I assume thats the way we want to go for now at least | 14:02 |
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| vivek-ebay | +1 for 1:M | 14:02 |
| Youcef | can you put a link to the updated blueprint (#link)? | 14:02 |
| xgerman_ | +1 for 1:M | 14:03 |
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| jorgem | agreed | 14:03 |
| dougwig | +1 1:M | 14:03 |
| enikanorov_ | Youcef: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/8/specs/juno/lbaas-api-and-objmodel-improvement.rst | 14:03 |
| blogan | sbalukoff did wonder if we should put IPv4 and IPv6 addresses on the load balancer object | 14:03 |
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| blogan | I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on that | 14:03 |
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| blogan | anyone have thoughts? | 14:04 |
| sbalukoff | I'd be for it. :) | 14:04 |
| blogan | lol | 14:04 |
| jorgem | hmm | 14:04 |
| xgerman_ | two addresses per node or mixed adresses or both? | 14:04 |
| Youcef | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/89903/8/specs/juno/lbaas-api-and-objmodel-improvement.rst | 14:04 |
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| sbalukoff | Mixed addresses. | 14:04 |
| enikanorov_ | i thought that was initial idea, but then we switched to single address per LB | 14:04 |
| jorgem | If you wanted many ip addresses then it now seems weird if you do that | 14:04 |
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| sbalukoff | So, up to one IPv4 and one IPv6 | 14:04 |
| jorgem | I like single | 14:05 |
| dougwig | depends on how much code it would take; i'd rather take the smallest bite that we can, and nail it. | 14:05 |
| xgerman_ | me, too | 14:05 |
| jorgem | simpler | 14:05 |
| xgerman_ | just wanted to clarify | 14:05 |
| Youcef | jorgem: agree, me too | 14:05 |
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| jorgem | just create another lb if you want IPv6 | 14:05 |
| jamiem | I agree | 14:05 |
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| xgerman_ | +1 | 14:05 |
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| enikanorov_ | but then N:M may make sense | 14:06 |
| Youcef | Is there a type of ipaddress to know whether you are reading an IPv4 or an IPv6? | 14:06 |
| blogan | So what would we miss out on if we didn't have the IPv6 on the load balancer? | 14:06 |
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| enikanorov_ | (i mean LB:Listener relation) | 14:06 |
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| blogan | enikanorov_: yeah that was the main reason for that relationship | 14:06 |
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| samuelbercovici | hello! | 14:07 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: It's more work for the user to maintain two identical listners + sub objects. | 14:07 |
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| blogan | sbalukoff: yes that is one big reason | 14:08 |
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| sbalukoff | It's also extremely common for back-ends that can do IPv6 ro be able to do both IPv4 and IPv6. | 14:08 |
| samuelbercovici | I think that starting with 1:N with aim of moving to M:N is not good | 14:08 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: agreed. | 14:08 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: what do you think about an ipv4 address and ipv6 address on the load balancer object? | 14:08 |
| jorgem | Having IPv4 and IPv6 on the same lb makes sense for one use case. However, when considering the myriad of use cases (i.e. combination of single to multiple ip address) then you have an inconsistent way of doing things. For example, you could technically have 2 ways of loadbalancing 1) One lb with IPV4 and IPv6 or 2) One lb with IPV4 (IPV6 nulled out) and one with IPv6 (IPv4 nulled out). I think this becomes confusing. | 14:09 |
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| enikanorov_ | i think N:M should be ok. If user want advanced use case (ipv4+ipv6) its fine to let em deal with some API complexity around it (like attaching listeners to another LB) | 14:09 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: I don't think it's that confusing. you've actually just listed all the possible permutations. | 14:09 |
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| samuelbercovici | if we take out implementaion efforts, I think that the M:N relashionship is the correct one | 14:10 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: What if I wanted more than 2 ip addresses (some of customers do this and I don't know why really) | 14:10 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: are you advocating we start with the M:N relationship from the beginning? | 14:10 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan: yes | 14:11 |
| sbalukoff | I"m just having a hard time seeing many actual practical cases where N:M will actually be used other than the one IPv4 + one IPv6 case. | 14:11 |
| xgerman_ | me, too | 14:11 |
| sballe_ | sbalukoff: +1 | 14:11 |
| dougwig | +1 | 14:11 |
| xgerman_ | and ther eis a workaround with two lbs | 14:11 |
| aburaschi | Sorry for asking, but what would be the use case for M:N, in short words? | 14:11 |
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| Youcef | so why then do we want to go eventually to M:N? what is the use case that cannot be accomplished? | 14:11 |
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| blogan | aburashci: it allows a user to reuse a listener thats already assigned a load balancer, so they don't have to redo their configuration for a load balancer with an IPv6 vip | 14:12 |
| jorgem | if its edge case then I'm fine. Just wanted to see if anyone else had a strong position on it. Now that I think about it I'm not really adamant about it. | 14:12 |
| blogan | Youcef: If we do the IPv6 and IPv4 attribute I'd suggest we don't go to the M:N | 14:12 |
| samuelbercovici | aburaschi: in addition to ipv4+ipv6- a User wants to expose his application to the internet on one network using a virtual ip and then expose the same application on a different network facing only internal users | 14:13 |
| sbalukoff | My point is that I don't see a reason for N:M *except* for the IPv4 + IPv6 use case being discussed. So, I'm a fan of 1:N only, with the caveat that "1" in this case is an entity that can have up to one IPv4 and one IPv6 address. | 14:13 |
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| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: good point | 14:13 |
| Youcef | blogan: but even if we don't, we can still accomplish the ipv4+ipv6 with 2 lbs, right? | 14:13 |
| aburaschi | samuelbercovici and blogan, thanks, that make sense. | 14:13 |
| dougwig | if i've got two network configs, is it reasonable to expect to share a listener? | 14:13 |
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| vivek-ebay | @Youcef, not unless we implement N:M | 14:14 |
| samuelbercovici | dougwig: well, its the exactly same application | 14:14 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: In that use case, which seems a little contrived to me, I would say the work-around of having two different (non-shared) listeners is acceptable. | 14:14 |
| dougwig | right, but if i'm defining policies on two different subnets, i usually expect to define two network configs, even if i'm duping them. | 14:14 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: it is as exceptable as using two different listeners for ipv4 amd ipv6 | 14:15 |
| Youcef | sbalukoff: agree, having 2 listeners is not a big deal. | 14:15 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Except that I'm saying the IPv4 + IPv6 for the same "service" or "listener" is a far more common scenario. :P | 14:15 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: not in the use cases i have encountered | 14:16 |
| Youcef | vivek-ebay: We can have ipv4+ipv6 with 2 different listeners (duplicate the listener), right? | 14:16 |
| blogan | what it really comes down to is making it easier for an end user | 14:16 |
| vivek-ebay | Youcef: right | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Exactly. | 14:16 |
| xgerman_ | easier - could also mena more consistent which could mean two listeners | 14:16 |
| samuelbercovici | so if it is the same application (listener and bellow) it should be defined once | 14:16 |
| sbalukoff | Having two different non-shared listeners is not a show stopper. It's just less convenient for the user. | 14:16 |
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| aburaschi | I see the point of sharing a listener. Nevertheless, what if we only have a 2:N relationship, beeing only an IPv4/6 issue? | 14:16 |
| xgerman_ | I don't like creating special cases in an API -- | 14:17 |
| samuelbercovici | aburaschi: what about the use case, I have described? it can be more than 2... | 14:17 |
| samuelbercovici | xgerman_:+1 | 14:17 |
| dougwig | it's also a question of where it's easier. a UI can hide this. but the api can require separate building blocks, as per xgerman_'s point. | 14:17 |
| blogan | is keeping the user from having to do duplicate work and maintaining more than one listener/pool important enough to keep M:N? | 14:18 |
| vivek-ebay | how much implementation complexity we see if we go with N:M route ? | 14:18 |
| aburaschi | samuelbercovici, sure :) Not trying to ignore the use case. Just trying to understand if a dual IPv4/6 interface is an option instead of an M:N relationship. | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | folks, i think that complexity of ipv4+ipv6 implemented with two LBs is solvable by proper UI | 14:18 |
| sbalukoff | It's quite a bit more complex to implement N:M | 14:18 |
| enikanorov_ | and then we may want to go for more flexible N:M | 14:18 |
| xgerman_ | testing is a big hassle | 14:18 |
| dougwig | vivek-ebay: there was a thread on the mailing list a few days ago that outlined some warts it'd bring to the drivers. | 14:18 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig brought up some very good points about inconsistencies that can creep up with N:M, especially if N is a large number. :) | 14:19 |
| jorgem | vivek-ebay: This should be just API. Implementation can be the same either way I would think right? | 14:19 |
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| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: the key chalenge is with proviosning status and operation status on child objects | 14:19 |
| samuelbercovici | we already going to face this with pools | 14:19 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: that's the whole other big story... I wouldn't even try to address that within this bp | 14:20 |
| sbalukoff | In any case, I'm willing to go with 1:M with no plans to go with N:M in the future... any user asking for IPv6 is likely to be slightly more advanced anyway. :) | 14:20 |
| xgerman_ | +1 abd might have automation | 14:20 |
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| sballe_ | sbalukoff: I like this appraoch since it will keep it simpler | 14:20 |
| dougwig | sbalukoff: +1 | 14:20 |
| blogan | sbalukoff: I just don't want to go with 1:M adn add the IPv4 and IPv6 attributes and then go to N:M and make the IPv6 attribute unnecessary | 14:21 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: Good point. | 14:21 |
| aburaschi | +1 to blogan point | 14:21 |
| sbalukoff | I don't think N:M is good from an implementation perspective (*any* implementation) for reasons that dougwig pointed out on the mailing list. | 14:21 |
| samuelbercovici | can anyone specify, why M:N is an issue from an end user? | 14:21 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: i think with a proper UI it's not an issue | 14:22 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: i think its good from an end user standpoint | 14:22 |
| vivek-ebay | M:N should make it easier for end-user....i think its more of a implementation complexity issue | 14:22 |
| aburaschi | agree | 14:22 |
| sbalukoff | Implementation complexity versus user convenience. | 14:22 |
| jorgem | I see either GUI users or API users (which hopefully means programatic interaction). If GUI then the issue can be abstracted. If programatic user it means righting slightly more code. I think 1:N is easier to understand and implement then with these assumptions. | 14:22 |
| blogan | enikanorov_: that is true as well but I don't see how a UI will be able to maintain two different listeners that shoudl be the same | 14:22 |
| Youcef | vivek-ebay: I think M:N is confusing for the user, but this is a matter of opinion :) | 14:22 |
| sbalukoff | In this case, people are saying the implementation complexity is too great for not much user convenience. | 14:23 |
| jorgem | writing* | 14:23 |
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| enikanorov_ | blogan: not sure i understand. N:M means sharing listeners between LBs | 14:23 |
| xgerman_ | sbalukoff +1 | 14:23 |
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| blogan | enikanorov_: oh i thought you were saying 1:N would be made simpler to do through the UI | 14:23 |
| samuelbercovici | so are we in agrrement that M:n is the better approach from a user perspective? | 14:23 |
| vivek-ebay | con someone briefly explain implementation complexity with M:N ? briefly | 14:23 |
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| blogan | vivek-ebay: dougwig sent an email about some of them on the ML | 14:24 |
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| blogan | vivek-ebay: on Tuesday I think | 14:24 |
| dougwig | briefly: "I don't have a strong objection, just an implementation shudder. Of the | 14:24 |
| dougwig | two backends that I'm familiar with, they support 1:N, not N:N So, we | 14:24 |
| dougwig | fake it by duping listeners on the fly. But, consider the extreme, say | 14:24 |
| dougwig | 1000 LB's and 1 shared listener. How long does it take to create 1000 | 14:24 |
| dougwig | listeners? What happens when it fails on 998? Ok, we rollback. What | 14:24 |
| dougwig | happens when the rollback fails? Inconsistent state. Driver's can't | 14:24 |
| dougwig | async. Driver's can't run cleanup routines later. | 14:24 |
| dougwig | What about when half the LB's have lit listeners and the other half don't; | 14:24 |
| dougwig | does the db say that N:N link is there yet or not? | 14:24 |
| dougwig | Shrink the allowed number of listeners and the window of pain gets | 14:24 |
| dougwig | smaller, but at operator scale, even a small window will get hit." | 14:24 |
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| vivek-ebay | so that supports N:M | 14:25 |
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| enikanorov_ | dougwig: we do it per object. what does mean 'create 1000 listeners'? | 14:25 |
| sbalukoff | vivek-ebay: Actually that says N:M leads to the above scenario, which is not good. | 14:25 |
| aburaschi | Yes... I thought the whole point of LB was the other way round... | 14:25 |
| enikanorov_ | you create listener and associate it to LB | 14:26 |
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| enikanorov_ | it either fails or succeeds for each association | 14:26 |
| vivek-ebay | N:M would mean shared listner, which means we will have 1 instaed of 1000 | 14:26 |
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| dougwig | enikanorov_: if you have 1000 LB's that share one listener, and a backend that doesn't support M:N, then you have to create 1000 listeners as an "atomic" operation. | 14:26 |
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| sbalukoff | Sure, but what if you've got a listener that is already shared to 1000 LBs, and make a change to the listener? | 14:26 |
| sbalukoff | Or one of the sub-objects. | 14:26 |
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| sbalukoff | Same scenario applies that dougwig is describing. | 14:26 |
| blogan | vivek-ebay: but on the backend there will most likely be 1000, depending on how the backend implements it | 14:26 |
| vivek-ebay | oh ok....you meant from driver perspective. | 14:26 |
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| sbalukoff | vivek-ebay: Yes, I think so. | 14:27 |
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| samuelbercovici | guys, we have very similar issue with pools | 14:27 |
| enikanorov_ | i'd like to see a user that creates 1000 lbs that share the same listeners :) | 14:27 |
| aburaschi | me too | 14:27 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: yes we do :( | 14:27 |
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| samuelbercovici | so this needs to be solved anyway | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | he probably pays big money to not to create listeners for each of his lbs :) | 14:28 |
| samuelbercovici | btw. is is also the case with current implementation of healthmonitors | 14:28 |
| blogan | can we not just start with with 1:M and add the N:M later if it is really needed? | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | anyway, N:M is definitely more code then 1:N | 14:28 |
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| sballe_ | blogan: +1 | 14:28 |
| blogan | enikanorov_: +1 | 14:28 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: that would be significant API change | 14:29 |
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| dougwig | the 1000 is just to make the problem obvious. it's still there with 2, it'll just be hit less often. | 14:29 |
| samuelbercovici | enikanorov_: correct | 14:29 |
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| samuelbercovici | we are already going to do a significant change, so we might as well try to do the critical changes at onec | 14:29 |
| aburaschi | +1 samuelbercovici | 14:29 |
| blogan | enikanorov_: i know and thats the problem with it | 14:29 |
| rm_work | not having strong feelings either way, my concern would be "is N:M feasible for Juno", more than anything else... | 14:29 |
| samuelbercovici | this is why we either do 1:N "forever" or do M:N | 14:30 |
| jorgem | It seems to me that sharing config is a nice concept but the real reason people want to "share" is because they can't copy configs. So copying seems to be the goal not necessarily sharing. Sharing across 1000 lbs sounds nice but what happens when you want to start making changes across these lbs and realize you didn't want to share afterall? | 14:30 |
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| jorgem | Its the same concept as side effects in coding | 14:30 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: you disassociate and create different listeners | 14:30 |
| jorgem | correct which is a pain | 14:31 |
| Youcef | jorgem: +1 | 14:31 |
| jorgem | just like refactoring code with side effects | 14:31 |
| aburaschi | But you would have to do it anyway with 1:N | 14:31 |
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| jorgem | aburaschi: How so? It wouldn't be shared? | 14:31 |
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| enikanorov_ | i don't see why is it a pain, that would depend on UI | 14:31 |
| aburaschi | I mean, you would have to create all the relations from scratch | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | doing everything manualy via CLI is pain anyway | 14:32 |
| samuelbercovici | but if is is realy the same application, than managing M differetn replicas specificaly in TLS and L7 become very inconvinient | 14:32 |
| xgerman_ | if we use UI we can also use 1:N | 14:32 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: agree | 14:32 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: My point is how much extra work is it really for a GUI or programatic API user to "copy" configs? | 14:32 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: another good point for having M:N | 14:32 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: copy only address intiali deploy | 14:32 |
| samuelbercovici | the key issues is the on-going operation aspects of it | 14:33 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: That's actually a really good point. | 14:33 |
| blogan | so dougwig has voiced his problems with M:N, are there any others? | 14:33 |
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| xgerman_ | tetsing becomes difficult | 14:33 |
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| samuelbercovici | now, the minute that we share pools, we have already made a dive to managing such cases | 14:33 |
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| dougwig | the l7 point is a good one. i'm not so fond of the "we're already in pain elsewhere" reasoning. :) | 14:34 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: which is why I'd say we go with M:N or 1:N on both | 14:34 |
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| xgerman_ | 1:N all the way :-) | 14:35 |
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| sbalukoff | blogan: 1:N on listeners:pools basically breaks L7 entirely, doesn't it? | 14:35 |
| sbalukoff | Or are you suggesting creating duplicate pools? | 14:35 |
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| blogan | sbalukoff: yep | 14:35 |
| samuelbercovici | for example, in M:N if you need tu update the default TLS certificate for the application, you do it once, if you replicate you do M times | 14:36 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: why? | 14:36 |
| sbalukoff | So, it's really about shifting the complexity of "interesting deployment failure scenarios" back to the user to deal with | 14:36 |
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| samuelbercovici | oh, you mean not shring pools? | 14:36 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: Yes, that's what I meant. | 14:37 |
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| blogan | So you're advocating for sharing of pools? | 14:37 |
| samuelbercovici | sbalukoff: well this becomes even more problematic | 14:37 |
| blogan | because if we share pools, i don't know why we wouldn't share listeners | 14:37 |
| rm_work | We are already 1:N on listener:pool? technically? because it's listener:l7policy:pool for the others | 14:37 |
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| sbalukoff | blogan: Good point. | 14:37 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: We're N:M because a given pool can be the target of many L7policies. | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | rm_work: i think it's N:M, because different listeners may use sam pool | 14:38 |
| enikanorov_ | *same | 14:38 |
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| sbalukoff | And yes, because different listeners can use the same default_pool_id. | 14:38 |
| samuelbercovici | <enikanorov_: sbalukoff: you are both right | 14:39 |
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| samuelbercovici | so if we need to handle shared pool provisoning status and operations status, a similar approach should be used for listeners | 14:40 |
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| samuelbercovici | and as far as I understand this is the key compleixty in the implementation | 14:40 |
| vivek-ebay | N:M makes sense for listener to pool | 14:40 |
| jorgem | I honestly think that unintended side effects by sharing configs is more important to a lb user due to the mission critical nature of a lb. I actually advocate not sharing anything. Again, a GUI and script can help me out in terms of setup and scale. I care that my lbs work and are isolated from human error. | 14:40 |
| sbalukoff | So, not being able to share pools seems to me like a much bigger burden on the user and not being able to share listeners. But again, from the code-- we're having to deal with the same kind of complexity around failure scenarios in any case. | 14:40 |
| enikanorov_ | samuelbercovici: i'd say this implementation item should be postponed | 14:41 |
| Youcef | vivek-ebay: agree. | 14:41 |
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| enikanorov_ | at least it should not be a part of the first patch | 14:41 |
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| xgerman_ | jorgem +1 | 14:41 |
| blogan | enikanorov_: agreed | 14:41 |
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| Youcef | I see the lb:listener relationship differently than the listern:pool relationships. the latter is much more common in N:M. | 14:41 |
| Youcef | *listener | 14:42 |
| samuelbercovici | I care less about steps and more about what will be the delievry for Juno | 14:42 |
| rm_work | yeah but i guess I don't count listener:l7policy:pool as M:N listener:pool, since l7policies aren't shared… so it's M:1 listener:pool, and 1:N:1 listener:l7policy:pool, no? | 14:42 |
| xgerman_ | also we said pool is a logical construct and gets provisioned when a listener or lb gets created | 14:42 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: why l7 policies not be shared? | 14:42 |
| sballe_ | samuelbercovici: +1 | 14:42 |
| rm_work | are they? i just thought they weren't | 14:42 |
| rm_work | maybe I am remembering the model wrong | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: it is one of the options | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: but lets not add this in for now | 14:43 |
| rm_work | kk | 14:43 |
| blogan | i think if we start sharing everything complexity and unexpected side effects increases exponentially | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | samuel's L7 policy model allows for sharing of L7 policies. Mine doesn't. | 14:43 |
| xgerman_ | + 1 | 14:43 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: N:M is superset of 1:M, so if cloud operator wants, it can then forbid sharing | 14:43 |
| rm_work | ah, that'd explain it sbalukoff | 14:43 |
| sballe_ | meant +1 on the Juno delivery as mentioned by samuelbercovici | 14:44 |
| samuelbercovici | The blue print should describe the delivery and then the steaps to get ther | 14:44 |
| rm_work | I'd also +1 that (as i said earlier, Juno delivery is what matters most if we don't have strong opinions in either direction) | 14:44 |
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| dougwig | we've been talking for 45 minutes. not usually a sign on not having strong opinions. | 14:45 |
| dougwig | :) | 14:45 |
| rm_work | heh | 14:45 |
| xgerman_ | we can vote? | 14:45 |
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| sbalukoff | dougwig: Not in this group. XD | 14:45 |
| blogan | if delivery is what matters then doing 1:M at first with the intention on donig N:M later would make more sense since there is no consensus | 14:45 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: I trying to force it because even as a developer I still have bugs when dealing with "pass by reference" objects and such even though I am aware of these things. Again lbs are missions critical, I want to help humanity from shooting itself in the foot :) | 14:45 |
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| jorgem | If lbs weren't mission critical I would be indifferent | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: agree, but that's phylosophy. In C++ you can use const& | 14:46 |
| xgerman_ | yeah, and I can see the support calls from users chnaging something and not realizing they broke all their lbs | 14:46 |
| dougwig | would we be voting on B:L:P or 1:L:P or 1:L:1 ? or just two of those? | 14:46 |
| samuelbercovici | jorgem: if someone don't want to share than he might as well not share | 14:46 |
| crc32 | +1 jorgem at this point I don't want to see breaking one loadbalancer breal all the others. | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | so you may shoot or you may be safe from that | 14:46 |
| enikanorov_ | that's flexibility | 14:46 |
| samuelbercovici | deciding on 1:N makes shring impossible | 14:46 |
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| JulianCash_ | Vote = good. Before the meeting ends = even better. | 14:47 |
| rm_work | xgerman_ / dougwig: I'm afraid just voting might alienate people with valid opinions :( but i guess at some point it might be necessary? | 14:47 |
| jorgem | enikanorov: I suppose. Your point makes sense it is just a preference then. | 14:47 |
| crc32 | enikonarov_: The point with const & is to avoid shoving the whole object on the call stack while still preserving the const. | 14:47 |
| xgerman_ | aren't we coding in Python? | 14:47 |
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| jorgem | enikanorov: I guess I can tell our GUI programmers to not share configs so I guess I'm fine then. | 14:48 |
| blogan | alirght we're getting in the weeds | 14:48 |
| enikanorov_ | xgerman_: when someone says' shooting in the leg' ... | 14:48 |
| samuelbercovici | so snake-biting in out foor :-) | 14:48 |
| jorgem | xgerman_: I was using it as sort of metaphor lol | 14:48 |
| rm_work | i think const& was a similie/metaphor/allegory | 14:48 |
| blogan | so should there eb a vote and that vote is the final decision? | 14:48 |
| rm_work | would the vote need to be a supermajority? >_> | 14:48 |
| xgerman_ | we need some mechanism of coming to a decision | 14:49 |
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| enikanorov_ | i see more reasons for N:M | 14:49 |
| sballe_ | xgerman_: +1 | 14:49 |
| jorgem | flexibility is fine. We can control side effects via our GUI at Rackspace and tell API users to be careful. | 14:49 |
| enikanorov_ | jorgem: yep | 14:49 |
| samuelbercovici | blogan: so taking odd the implementation complexity, you think that M:N should not be implemented | 14:49 |
| samuelbercovici | ? | 14:49 |
| rm_work | we can "straw poll" if that's less contentious maybe? | 14:50 |
| samuelbercovici | odd==off | 14:50 |
| xgerman_ | well, if we want to hide ot from users, it's hard to implement, ... | 14:50 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: I'm leaning towards N:M but not strongly against either one. I think the flexbility is most important, but I am afraid of the complexity caused by sharing everything | 14:50 |
| samuelbercovici | I think we need to evalute the implementation complexity off-line | 14:50 |
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| aburaschi | I totally agree with blogan... | 14:50 |
| aburaschi | and with you too, samuelbercovici. | 14:51 |
| dougwig | my biggest concern is not making things late or brittle for Juno, frankly. | 14:51 |
| samuelbercovici | are we in agreement that from a user-perspective M:N is the correct approach? | 14:51 |
| sballe_ | I agree we need to make this available in Juno | 14:51 |
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| xgerman_ | I think the copy approach is easieer to understand | 14:51 |
| rm_work | blogan / samuelbercovici / dougwig / sballe_ +1 | 14:52 |
| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: It's certainly the simpler approach for the users and provides the most flexibility. | 14:52 |
| jorgem | N:M is fine ~+1 :) | 14:52 |
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| aburaschi | I think we agree that M:N is the most flexible approach, and that there is some concern about getting that to work for Juno | 14:52 |
| sbalukoff | jorgem: LOL! | 14:52 |
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| enikanorov_ | i think we need to do what is right, even just N:M is not the whole completed refactoring | 14:52 |
| samuelbercovici | so lets, give it a hsot, to pinpoint the key chalenges in doing it and evaluete complexity so we have abetter measured way to decide | 14:52 |
| vivek-ebay | N:M for listener-to-pool +1 | 14:53 |
| blogan | okay so back to N:M then? | 14:53 |
| JulianCash_ | For me, even if there isn't a "final decision", a sense of how many people want what, and how strongly they feel would be nice before this ends in 7 min. How can we quickly make a kinda vote thing happen. | 14:53 |
| JulianCash_ | ? | 14:53 |
| rm_work | sounds like it | 14:53 |
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| sbalukoff | blogan: More or less. | 14:53 |
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| sbalukoff | We're all sort of luke-warm about it. | 14:53 |
| sbalukoff | it seems. | 14:53 |
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| Youcef | N:M for listener to pool +1, N:M for lb:listener: -1 :) | 14:53 |
| dougwig | i'm still 1:N, but not enough to really register a negative vote about it. | 14:53 |
| blogan | I still think going with 1:M to start woudl be better, even though it is a major change later | 14:53 |
| xgerman_ | I like 1:M more | 14:54 |
| sballe_ | me too +1 | 14:54 |
| samuelbercovici | +1 for both | 14:54 |
| rm_work | I like M:N but worry about Juno release | 14:54 |
| sballe_ | samuelbercovici: Not fair ;-) | 14:54 |
| blogan | i like sam's idea of figuring out the implemenation issues offline | 14:54 |
| sbalukoff | blogan: +1 | 14:54 |
| dougwig | blogan / samuelbercovici +1 on scoping | 14:55 |
| rm_work | yeah, we don't have time in the next 5 minutes for a code review :P | 14:55 |
| blogan | dare we try to move on to another topic? | 14:55 |
| xgerman_ | sure, we have 5 | 14:55 |
| samuelbercovici | so decision? give it till next week to quantify the effort and then get final decision? | 14:55 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: i think we covered most of them | 14:55 |
| xgerman_ | yep | 14:55 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici +1 | 14:55 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: sounds like it to me | 14:55 |
| enikanorov_ | except for status of the pool | 14:55 |
| dougwig | where is the offline meeting? who is taking point on that? | 14:55 |
| jorgem | What about Epic/Umbrella? | 14:55 |
| blogan | enikanorov: health monitor as well | 14:55 |
| jorgem | thats on the agenda | 14:56 |
| dougwig | any chance of getting an object model bp for l7/ssl, so we can evaluate the N:M in that context better? | 14:56 |
| enikanorov_ | blogan: IMO this also better postponed | 14:56 |
| sballe_ | I need to drop off. will read the scrollback later. Bye. | 14:56 |
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| blogan | enikanorov: thats fine, I think this is a good stopping point anyway | 14:56 |
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| jorgem | action items? | 14:57 |
| blogan | research scope of implementation issues with N:M | 14:57 |
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| jorgem | #action research scope of implementation issues with N:M | 14:57 |
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| samuelbercovici | sam to send to ML intial bultes of things to address in M:n | 14:57 |
| aburaschi | space to do that? ML? | 14:57 |
| samuelbercovici | ML | 14:57 |
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| jorgem | aburaschi: yes | 14:58 |
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| aburaschi | ok, that was a late Enter... | 14:58 |
| blogan | we can discuss some more in #neutron-lbaas as well | 14:58 |
| aburaschi | :) | 14:58 |
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| xgerman_ | #action sam to send to ML intial bultes of things to address in M:n | 14:58 |
| Youcef | #action research scope of implementation issues with N:M for both lb:listener and listener:pool relationships | 14:58 |
| sbalukoff | Yep. | 14:58 |
| jorgem | blogan: true but it would be nice if discussions get paraphrased on ML as well | 14:58 |
| sbalukoff | I'd like to see a bot get added to #neutron-lbaas | 14:58 |
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| sbalukoff | So that people have a place to look at conversations who can't be online all the time. | 14:58 |
| jorgem | sbalukoff: yup | 14:58 |
| aburaschi | + | 14:58 |
| aburaschi | + | 14:58 |
| dougwig | can we add neutron-lbaas to eavesdrop? who's the person to contact about that? | 14:58 |
| xgerman_ | + | 14:59 |
| aburaschi | +1 | 14:59 |
| enikanorov_ | i don't know, may be mestery knows | 14:59 |
| VijayB_ | blogan: guess we're short on time to discuss the service implementation, so we can go back to the ML for that | 14:59 |
| Youcef | =1 | 14:59 |
| JulianCash_ | + | 14:59 |
| Youcef | +1 | 14:59 |
| blogan | VijayB_: join #neutron-lbaas | 14:59 |
| jorgem | i++ | 14:59 |
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| VijayB_ | blogan: ok | 14:59 |
| sbalukoff | Haha | 14:59 |
| rm_work | +1 | 14:59 |
| enikanorov_ | ok, we're out of time | 14:59 |
| sbalukoff | Ok, thanks y'all! | 14:59 |
| xgerman_ | thanks | 14:59 |
| dougwig | bye | 14:59 |
| enikanorov_ | thanks everyone for joining | 14:59 |
| aburaschi | Thank you all! | 14:59 |
| jorgem | thanks! | 15:00 |
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| enikanorov_ | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| rm_work | +1000 | 15:00 |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 29 15:00:05 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-29-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-29-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-05-29-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| eglynn | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 29 15:00:17 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglynn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:00 | |
| JulianCash_ | Thanks | 15:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:00 |
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| eglynn | hey y'all | 15:00 |
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| llu-laptop | o/ | 15:00 |
| ildikov | o/ | 15:00 |
| prad_ | o/ | 15:00 |
| nealph | o/ | 15:00 |
| _nadya_ | o/ | 15:00 |
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| fabiog | o/ | 15:01 |
| ityaptin | o/ | 15:01 |
| eglynn | k folks, lots to get thru' today ... | 15:01 |
| DinaBelova | o/ | 15:01 |
| aviau | o/ | 15:02 |
| gordc | o/ | 15:02 |
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| eglynn | #topic "Quick apology" | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to ""Quick apology" (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:02 | |
| ddieterly | o/ | 15:02 |
| eglynn | ildikov: the floor is yours ... | 15:02 |
| ildikov | murphi, alias me owes you an apology :) | 15:02 |
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| ildikov | eglynn promised me to kick me out of the Ceilo channel, if I show up on the meeting on my vacation | 15:03 |
| ildikov | so I borrowed my good friend Murphy's name with a small modification | 15:03 |
| * eglynn adds murphi to the evergrowing /kick list :) | 15:03 | |
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| eglynn | no worries :) | 15:04 |
| eglynn | #topic Juno-1 blueprints coverage | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno-1 blueprints coverage (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:04 | |
| eglynn | #link https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/juno-1 | 15:04 |
| * nsaje jumps in late | 15:04 | |
| eglynn | looks like we're in not bad shape for j-1 | 15:05 |
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| eglynn | ... a few BPs with outstanding specs | 15:05 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, we have some BP to be reviewed ;) | 15:05 |
| DinaBelova | I mean code-reviewed) | 15:05 |
| eglynn | ... i.e. currrently under review as DinaBelova points out, or else yet to be written | 15:05 |
| ildikov | are those too for j-1? | 15:06 |
| _nadya_ | mm, should I rewrite old bp to spec? | 15:06 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, well I may do it for you) | 15:07 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: we decided to absolve any BPs that were already approved and already substantially implemented (e.g. as a result of being bumped from Icehouse) | 15:07 |
| ildikov | _nadya_: IIRC that was the agreement that the unapproved/unstarted BPs should be rewritten in spec | 15:07 |
| _nadya_ | but it's started and on review | 15:07 |
| eglynn | yep, only "fresh" BPs need to follow the new process | 15:07 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, so as your one is almost done and approved... | 15:07 |
| DinaBelova | np) | 15:08 |
| _nadya_ | ok, thanks for clarification | 15:08 |
| llu-laptop | eglynn: how about approved but not started bp ? | 15:08 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: yep ... so if it was previously approved and already substantially implemented, not really a good use of time to retrospecitively write a spec | 15:08 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: ... in that case, probably best to write a spec I think | 15:09 |
| eglynn | does anyone have anything else they think merits a BP for j-1? | 15:09 |
| llu-laptop | eglynn: ok. One of my colleagues what to implement the xen inspector bp which is already approved. I told him to write the spec, glad I didn't give hime the wrong answer | 15:10 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: cool, thanks for pointing him in the right direction :) | 15:10 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - well, we have tempest tests - in the tempest - we previously thought it'll be j1 | 15:10 |
| eglynn | ildikov: ... for example, does the docco work need a BP to track? | 15:10 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - just spoke with qa folks | 15:10 |
| ildikov | eglynn: good question | 15:10 |
| ildikov | eglynn: I do not know the process for manuals | 15:11 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn - to merge our tests they need to do some extra work in the gate - so the tests will be in gate only at the end of next week | 15:11 |
| DinaBelova | it's the best option we have) | 15:11 |
| ildikov | eglynn: in the Dev doc there will not be a huge change, but if you want e to write a BP for it, I can do that | 15:11 |
| eglynn | ildikov: can you ping annegentle to see what her preference is? | 15:11 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - but we may have our tepmest patches merged *before* | 15:11 |
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| _nadya_ | DinaBelova: what work they need to do? | 15:12 |
| DinaBelova | it's about the feature flags | 15:12 |
| ildikov | eglynn: sure | 15:12 |
| DinaBelova | they have the mechanism to skip tests in the icehouse job | 15:12 |
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| DinaBelova | _nadya_ but it's not sufficient | 15:12 |
| _nadya_ | DinaBelova: ah, you are talking about icehouse job? | 15:12 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova, _nadya_: so we've an item on that later in the agenda | 15:12 |
| cdent | sorry for late; can't seem to remember to join here on time | 15:12 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, _nadya_ - yep, sorry to be impatient) | 15:13 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: np! | 15:13 |
| DinaBelova | just as for the j1 | 15:13 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... yeah on the j1 tracking, d'ya think the tempest work needs a fresh BP to track? | 15:13 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... or more like bug/RFE-level work-items on the QA side | 15:14 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - not the Bp in the ceilometer, I guess, but we have unclear BP for the tempest - that's why I'm writing specs now | 15:14 |
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| DinaBelova | and I wonder if it's a good idea to mark them j1 | 15:14 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: a-ha, cool, those specs will land in qa-specs repo | 15:15 |
| DinaBelova | yes | 15:15 |
| DinaBelova | as said - not ceilo BPs, but related | 15:15 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... is j1 a bit ambitious, possibly? | 15:15 |
| DinaBelova | I guess yes | 15:15 |
| DinaBelova | some of the pathes will be landed for sure | 15:15 |
| DinaBelova | patches* | 15:15 |
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| DinaBelova | but not all for sure - we have some things like events scenario - it's not started yet at all | 15:16 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: we have all-in-one bp about 'basic ceilo test' and now there is the same about 'scenario (advanced) ceilo tests' | 15:16 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... so ambitious for j1 completion, but seems like some concrete progress definite in timeframe | 15:16 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, exactly | 15:16 |
| eglynn | cool | 15:16 |
| eglynn | so just a quick reminder, juno-1 tag will be cut on June 12th | 15:17 |
| _nadya_ | DinaBelova: eglynn, we should be ready with basic in j1 | 15:17 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_ - yes, I hope so - if we'll have no blockers from the qa folks | 15:17 |
| _nadya_ | DinaBelova: eglynn, scenario are for j2, j3 I believe | 15:17 |
| DinaBelova | if they'll keep this "end of next week" estimation - it'll be so) | 15:17 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, ++ | 15:18 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: cool enough | 15:18 |
| * eglynn just wants to show definite progress to TC by the time of the j1 review of the gap coverage actions | 15:18 | |
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| eglynn | (i.e. doesn't need to be 100% there by then) | 15:19 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, we'll have basic api tests landed I guess | 15:19 |
| DinaBelova | and all other stuff - on review | 15:19 |
| DinaBelova | or in progress (as for the scenarios) | 15:19 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: that would be a good outcome for j1 :) | 15:19 |
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| eglynn | BTW the new tag-driven milestone release process will buy us maybe a day or two extra development time for j1 | 15:20 |
| eglynn | ... *if * we choose to take it | 15:20 |
| eglynn | ... however it's really just borrowing from the juno-2 milestone | 15:20 |
| eglynn | ... a zero-sum scenario | 15:20 |
| ildikov | next topic maybe? ;) | 15:22 |
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| llu-laptop | should we continue? | 15:22 |
| eglynn | anything else anyone wants to bring up related to j2? | 15:22 |
| eglynn | k, moving on in that case ... | 15:22 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, I guess we may go further) | 15:22 |
| ildikov | eglynn: we have time for j2 ;) | 15:22 |
| eglynn | #topic details of Juno mid-cycle meetup | 15:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "details of Juno mid-cycle meetup (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:22 | |
| eglynn | jd__: the floor is yours :) | 15:22 |
| eglynn | k, no jd__ ... let's punt that topic to next week | 15:23 |
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| DinaBelova | jd__, hehe) you here? | 15:23 |
| gordc | i think they have a holiday in France last i checked. | 15:23 |
| aviau | Yes they do | 15:23 |
| DinaBelova | that's not the good reason for not being here) | 15:23 |
| eglynn | gordc: a-ha, that explains it :) | 15:23 |
| DinaBelova | :D | 15:24 |
| ildikov | haha, I thought only the Swedish guys don't like working :) | 15:24 |
| eglynn | #topic Performance tests as 3rd party CI | 15:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Performance tests as 3rd party CI (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:24 | |
| ityaptin | Hi) We decided to make performance test more automated | 15:24 |
| ityaptin | In thoughts it looked like job or scripts which uses ceilometer master and return results from profiler. For api, collector and agents performance. | 15:24 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: ... so will it run periodically or on every commit? | 15:25 |
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| Alexei_987 | voting to run this on demand | 15:25 |
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| ityaptin | I think it shoul to run periodically, because for every commit we have some issues: | 15:25 |
| Alexei_987 | no need to run tests since every run requires manual analysis | 15:25 |
| ityaptin | These tests are too long for run them for each patchset | 15:25 |
| ildikov | my vote is on periodically or close to release, I do not mean the last day of course :) | 15:26 |
| eglynn | seems a mix of periodic and on-demand would be useful | 15:26 |
| llu-laptop | or close to each mielstone? | 15:26 |
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| llu-laptop | s/miel/mile/ | 15:26 |
| fabiog | could be run for every code set tagged for the milestone | 15:27 |
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| DinaBelova | also there is the issue with the testing env - if we speak about Jenkins job, for instance, there is only one node there, only standalone storage... | 15:27 |
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| DinaBelova | these results won't be really useful | 15:27 |
| eglynn | ... so we see say the weekly trend over the cycle, but also run for each milestone/RC tag? | 15:27 |
| gordc | llu-laptop: +1, that'd be a good minimum | 15:27 |
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| fabiog | eglynn +1 | 15:27 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, I guess it'll be cool | 15:27 |
| ityaptin | I think we may run these test for milestonces | 15:27 |
| DinaBelova | speaking about the performance) | 15:28 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: how will the results be reported? | 15:28 |
| ildikov | llu-laptop: agree | 15:28 |
| DinaBelova | we have blockers from QA folks, but we have porking tempest + ceilo | 15:28 |
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| DinaBelova | so gordc - your improvements were cool) | 15:28 |
| DinaBelova | well, let's be patient) | 15:28 |
| DinaBelova | about the performance testing | 15:29 |
| ityaptin | Now I write tests with profiler and it will collect tests results from profileng of runned process | 15:29 |
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| eglynn | ityaptin: ... if perf tests are decoupled from individual commits, then clearly results can't be reported as CI votes on gerrit? | 15:29 |
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| gordc | DinaBelova: good to know... i haven't turned on multiple workers... debating if we should just to make sure it works. | 15:29 |
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| eglynn | ityaptin: "profiler" == "os-profiler by boris-42"? | 15:29 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, no | 15:29 |
| Alexei_987 | eglynn: no profiler -> cProfile | 15:29 |
| eglynn | a-ha, k | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | os-profiler by boris-42 uses ceilo itself) | 15:30 |
| prad_ | can we see the performance test results somewhere after each run? | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | not our variant) | 15:30 |
| ityaptin | eglynn, about commit - yes | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | prad_ - that's "todo" item - last times ityaptin published them himself | 15:30 |
| prad_ | ah ok | 15:30 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: ... so I'd like to see the results reported to a well-known/discoverable place | 15:30 |
| _nadya_ | regarding performance tests. As I understand, the strategy is still to be discussed. We have ityaptin's scripts but CI-configuration needs to be carefuly thought out | 15:31 |
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| ityaptin | For examle, tests results for each milestones we can whos in wiki and at meetings | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, yes, exactly | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, _nadya_ - the issue is about *where and how* to run these tests | 15:31 |
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| eglynn | ityaptin: ... what would be would for the test results to be easily discoverable | 15:32 |
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| eglynn | ityaptin: ... so given a tag, anyone would know where to go find the corresponding results | 15:32 |
| llu-laptop | how about a special commit which never gets merged on gerrit to trigger that perf test? and perf test could post result as a 3rd party CI test | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, _nadya_ we had the opportunity to create small virtual clusters as the testing labs internally - but I guess this should be somehow improved for the automated testing | 15:32 |
| eglynn | ... cool, sounds like there are some aspects of this that need to be worked out in detail | 15:33 |
| _nadya_ | so by now, for this meeting, we just wanted to announce that we've started to work on it and ityaptin will be contact person. All suggestions about the place for results, db configurations are welcome | 15:33 |
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| eglynn | ... (a) when exactly to run, and (b) where & how to report results | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, exactly | 15:34 |
| eglynn | ityaptin: shall we return to this topic maybe next week to get closure on those two questions ^^^ | 15:34 |
| DinaBelova | to have these tests on demand we need some nodes to work on -they should be specially configured, etc... | 15:34 |
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| DinaBelova | lots of infra questions really | 15:34 |
| _nadya_ | maybe it would be useful to discuss this one in 2 weeks | 15:34 |
| _nadya_ | *once | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | _nadya_, well, next week we may provide some update, but I guess clear answer will be in two ones | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn ^^ | 15:35 |
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| ityaptin | eglynn, yes) we should to think this resuts, because now we have not complete answer for these questions | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn - is it ok for announcement? :) | 15:36 |
| eglynn | _nadya_, DinaBelova, ityaptin: cool let's return to this topic next week so (... then every 2nd week maybe thereafter?) | 15:36 |
| eglynn | #topic Tempest integration | 15:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tempest integration (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:36 | |
| DinaBelova | yeah) | 15:36 |
| eglynn | ... drum roll :) | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | so some news about this topic) | 15:37 |
| _nadya_ | pretty good news | 15:37 |
| eglynn | ... the suspense is killing me! :) | 15:37 |
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| DinaBelova | 1/ ceilo _ tempest works ok even without multiple collectors with gordc change for SQL backend | 15:37 |
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| DinaBelova | it's even not loaded | 15:37 |
| eglynn | \o/ | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | I mean ceilometer | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | we used profiler to collect the measurements | 15:37 |
| eglynn | gordc for the win! :) | 15:37 |
| llu-laptop | bravo gordc | 15:38 |
| gibi | nice! | 15:38 |
| ildikov | gordc: congrats :) | 15:38 |
| prad_ | gordc++ | 15:38 |
| nsaje | \o/ | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | so even with the additional load provided by profiler it's ok | 15:38 |
| fabiog | gordc Congrats! | 15:38 |
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| gordc | :) let's see how long it last | 15:38 |
| eglynn | ... gordc kicks back and lights a cigar ;) | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | nah, also we need to say big THANK YOU to Vadim) | 15:38 |
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| eglynn | vrovachev: kudos! :) | 15:39 |
| gordc | i'll give sileht credit for having same thoughts as me. | 15:39 |
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| _nadya_ | I believe that v1 dropping was helpful too :) | 15:39 |
| DinaBelova | okay) | 15:39 |
| gordc | vrovachev: thanks for working on tests! | 15:39 |
| eglynn | so we've goodness now on master | 15:39 |
| DinaBelova | the next point is 2/ we had several discussions with qa folks | 15:39 |
| eglynn | ... but still the problem of branchless Tempest, i.e. skipping testcases against stable/icehouse | 15:39 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, exactly) | 15:40 |
| vrovachev | eglynn: oh, thanks :S | 15:40 |
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| eglynn | TBH I'm a bit concerned about the ideas underpinning branchless tempest, i.e. that the API is just the API | 15:40 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn - well, anyway we have the possibility for workaround here | 15:40 |
| gordc | eglynn: was the answer we had to get it working in icehouse too? | 15:41 |
| DinaBelova | but as said - QA folks need some magic in gate to allow this | 15:41 |
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| DinaBelova | gordc, no, we persuaded QA folks that it's impossible | 15:41 |
| DinaBelova | thank God | 15:41 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... so this is the feature flag idea we discussed with Sean yesterday? | 15:41 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, but it looks like it's not so simple | 15:41 |
| DinaBelova | as our flag will be ceilo specific | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | and as "tempest should be used for every cloud" | 15:42 |
| gordc | DinaBelova: cool cool. it might be possible to backport without dropping v1 but if we don't have to that's better. | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | they need one more level of abstraction speaking sabout feature flags | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | about* | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, ;) | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, so they promised to make it work before the end of next week | 15:42 |
| eglynn | gordc: yeah ... best to avoid the need to backport *every* perf improvement | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | and to land out tempest patches before | 15:43 |
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| DinaBelova | our* | 15:43 |
| gordc | eglynn: agreed. | 15:43 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: excellent! :) | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | ;) | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | they'll be just skipped before this "new abstraction level" will be done | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | and turned on after this | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | so news are quite good ones | 15:44 |
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| DinaBelova | well, it's almost the all I wanted to point here - I guess I mentioned all important moments | 15:44 |
| DinaBelova | folks, do you have questions here? | 15:44 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: great news indeed! | 15:44 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... so the "new abstraction level" part, any clarity on what exactly the qa folks intend to do there? | 15:45 |
| gordc | looking forward to getting tempest tests up and running. :) | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | #info current ceilo master works with tempest | 15:45 |
| cdent | \o/ | 15:45 |
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| DinaBelova | #info tempest gating will be available ~end of next week due to QA infra blockers | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, well | 15:45 |
| DinaBelova | not so much really | 15:46 |
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| DinaBelova | I'm not really experienced in tempest to understand Sean in all the moments :-\ | 15:46 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: ... cool enough, it's all magic :) | 15:46 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn: | 15:46 |
| DinaBelova | [18:58:37] <sdague> vrovachev: so the reality is we'll need the next level of feature grid in d-g to support this, however that won't happen until next week. But we can get the tempest bits close before then. | 15:46 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 15:46 |
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| eglynn | ... if Sean's confident it'll be sorted within a week, then we can probably "take that to the bank" :) | 15:47 |
| DinaBelova | ;) | 15:47 |
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| DinaBelova | so let's move on I guess | 15:47 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn? | 15:48 |
| * eglynn wants to buy the team a virtual beer to mark this happy occasion :) | 15:48 | |
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| eglynn | ... well everyone except _nadya_, just an orange juice for you! ;) | 15:49 |
| * DinaBelova saying cheers :) | 15:49 | |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: thanks :) | 15:49 |
| eglynn | very quickly on "DefCore impact of the lack of Tempest coverage in Havana" | 15:49 |
| eglynn | ... so sadly the current DefCore effort is completely based on Havana | 15:49 |
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| eglynn | ... and our first Tempest coverage didn't land until Icehouse (i.e. the alarms tests IIRC) | 15:50 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yep - alarms api afair | 15:50 |
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| eglynn | ... so as a result of the lack of Tempest coverage in H, no telemetry capabilities whatsoever listed in DefCode :( | 15:50 |
| eglynn | https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/e/e3/DefCore_Capabilities_Scoring.pdf | 15:50 |
| DinaBelova | heh :( | 15:51 |
| eglynn | ... so we may need to think about backporting those alarm API tests to stable/havana in Tempest? | 15:51 |
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| eglynn | ... just an idea I wanted to throw out on the table | 15:51 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, well | 15:52 |
| DinaBelova | vrovachev what do you think about it? | 15:52 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: with Mongo we may try | 15:52 |
| eglynn | we may have already missed the boat on that ... | 15:52 |
| eglynn | ... but /me thinking it would not reflect well for ceilo to be completely absent from DefCore | 15:52 |
| vrovachev | DinaBelova: i thins, it's good idea :) | 15:52 |
| vrovachev | the only moment here is to check that they'll work | 15:53 |
| eglynn | ... food for thought in any case, running out of time for today | 15:53 |
| eglynn | ... so let's rush on | 15:53 |
| eglynn | #topic TSDaaS/gnocchi update | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TSDaaS/gnocchi update (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:53 | |
| DinaBelova | no __jd :) | 15:54 |
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| eglynn | seeing jd__ isn't here, DinaBelova anything you wanted to bring up? | 15:54 |
| eglynn | or just punt for today? | 15:54 |
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| DinaBelova | well, I was working on "how to run it???" | 15:54 |
| DinaBelova | well, currently I have some success :) | 15:54 |
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| DinaBelova | is amalagon here? | 15:54 |
| eglynn | yeap, I saw the discussions on IRC and anamalagon's README | 15:54 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: don't think so | 15:55 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes - so it's basically working - some gnocchi + swift stuff | 15:55 |
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| DinaBelova | not really easy to turn it on now, but I guess it'll be better | 15:55 |
| DinaBelova | so the next steps will be to think about how it might be integrated with ceilo | 15:56 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: cool ... great to have that "getting started" info written down, easier for others to get involved and kick the tyres | 15:56 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, for sure | 15:56 |
| DinaBelova | I hope amalagon will do this soon | 15:56 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 15:56 |
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| DinaBelova | with my help a little bit) | 15:56 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: yeap, we'll need another round of discussion on exactly what that integration will look like | 15:56 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, exaclty | 15:56 |
| eglynn | #link https://review.openstack.org/96321 | 15:56 |
| eglynn | ^^^ README | 15:57 |
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| DinaBelova | and how it might fit with other features | 15:57 |
| DinaBelova | events, for instance ;) | 15:57 |
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| DinaBelova | well, anyway, work is just started) | 15:57 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: cool, all good :) | 15:57 |
| eglynn | #topic MONaaS update | 15:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "MONaaS update (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:57 | |
| ildikov | I volunteer for the pipelinie part | 15:57 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: where this round be held? | 15:57 |
| eglynn | ildikov: great! :) | 15:57 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: ML? | 15:58 |
| aviau | Hey everyone :) | 15:58 |
| eglynn | _nadya_: well gerrit, ML, wiki, etherpad, IRC ... all over the place probably | 15:58 |
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| eglynn | aviau: hey | 15:58 |
| eglynn | aviau: sorry we're up against the shot clock here | 15:58 |
| DinaBelova | aviau you have two mins) | 15:58 |
| _nadya_ | eglynn: I just wanted not to be lost in this discussion | 15:58 |
| aviau | I'll try to go fast. | 15:59 |
| aviau | There was a lot of work done on the Etherpad, you can take a look at it. | 15:59 |
| aviau | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/MONaaS | 15:59 |
| aviau | I also suggest you take a look at Nick Barcet's article, where he mentions some use cases for MONaaS | 15:59 |
| aviau | #link http://techs.enovance.com/7043/keep-openstack-weird | 15:59 |
| eglynn | aviau: so the HP guys had a lot of feedback on the etherpad also | 15:59 |
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| aviau | You might want to take a look at HP cloud-mon. A recently open-sourced MONaaS solution. It is an example of what we think MONaaS could look like. | 16:00 |
| eglynn | aviau: they gave us an overview of their work at summit | 16:00 |
| aviau | #link https://github.com/hpcloud-mon/mon-arch | 16:00 |
| eglynn | aviau: would it make sense for you to get involved with the HP project? | 16:00 |
| eglynn | aviau: ... apparently it'll soon be moved to stackforge | 16:00 |
| aviau | About that, have started working on the blueprint template and I currently fail to see how we can fit monitoring in the currently proposed Telemetry program mission. | 16:01 |
| aviau | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/87526/5/reference/programs.yaml | 16:01 |
| ildikov | what about moving to the Ceilo channel with this? | 16:01 |
| eglynn | folks we've run out of time here, let's move it over to the #openstack-ceilometer channel | 16:01 |
| ildikov | we ran out of time :( | 16:01 |
| DinaBelova | bye! | 16:01 |
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| eglynn | #endmeeting ceilometer | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 29 16:02:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-29-15.00.html | 16:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-29-15.00.txt | 16:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-05-29-15.00.log.html | 16:02 |
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| hyakuhei | #startmeeting openstack security group | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 29 18:00:52 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hyakuhei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack security group)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
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| nkinder | hi all | 18:01 |
| chair6 | howdy | 18:01 |
| hyakuhei | Hi all, roll call :) | 18:01 |
| bdpayne | o/ | 18:01 |
| paulmo | Paul Montgomery | 18:01 |
| tmcpeak | hey everybody, Travis McPeak from Symantec here | 18:01 |
| * hyakuhei Rob from HP | 18:01 | |
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| hyakuhei | Ok, so I only have one agenda item for today, I presume others have things they want to talk about? | 18:02 |
| mxin | hi, My name is Michael Xin from Rackspace. | 18:02 |
| paulmo | I had one item | 18:02 |
| paulmo | Yay, welcome mxin! :) | 18:02 |
| hyakuhei | Hi mxin, thanks for joining us! | 18:02 |
| mxin | Thanks. | 18:02 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: great, what was it? | 18:02 |
| mxin | Glad to help. | 18:02 |
| nkinder | hey mxin! | 18:02 |
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| hyakuhei | Hey bdpayne, glad to have you back! | 18:03 |
| paulmo | I was starting back on trying to create some OpenStack-wide logging recommendations… starting to edit this to update it: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines/logging_guidelines | 18:03 |
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| bdpayne | thanks! | 18:03 |
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| paulmo | Just had some questions on how we might gain that consensus as a team | 18:03 |
| tmcpeak | lets discuss OSSG meetup in San Antonio if time permits | 18:03 |
| hyakuhei | tmcpeak: that's the main thing I want to discuss | 18:03 |
| mxin | That's cool | 18:03 |
| tmcpeak | oh cool, perfect :) | 18:03 |
| bknudson | paulmo: add auth tokens to things not to log | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | rather, OSSG Meeting ... whereever / whenever it may be | 18:03 |
| hyakuhei | indeed. | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | s/Meeting/Meetup/ | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | Right ok, lets talk about logging first | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | #topic logging | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "logging (Meeting topic: openstack security group)" | 18:04 | |
| paulmo | I'm changing that whole page… making diagrams and such. Check back in a day or so. :) | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines/logging_guidelines | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: do you just want comments, do you need contributions? | 18:04 |
| paulmo | This topic keeps popping up with plain text credentials in logs and such. I just wanted to get a feel from the OSSG about tackling some OpenStack-wide standards. | 18:04 |
| bknudson | paulmo: is it expected that no logs have passwords, etc., at all levels? | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | It's slowly getting weeded out, we keep seeing it in OSSAs. Agree that some guidance needs to be provided | 18:05 |
| bknudson | even a trace level? | 18:05 |
| mxin | That's good start | 18:05 |
| paulmo | The elevator pitch is: Let's encourage identifying/tagging confidential (non-user data) in the code/through reviews instead of admins trying to chase down that information reactively on the backend log filtering. | 18:05 |
| mxin | Passwords should never be logged anywhere. | 18:05 |
| hyakuhei | bknudson: That is my preference but I've seen developers ask for it to stay in debug logs | 18:05 |
| nkinder | I've seen password logging bugs get punted on for client side debug logging | 18:05 |
| paulmo | … and let's create OSSG agreed upon guidelines. Just my 2 cents. :) | 18:05 |
| bdpayne | yeah, that's a reasonable first step | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak | what's the idea behind having them stay in logs? | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | I think our position should just be don't log passwords mkay? | 18:06 |
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| bdpayne | although we may want to work with VMT after we have put together guidelines | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | tmcpeak: Developers thinking they need it for debug | 18:06 |
| mxin | it can be masked like xxxx | 18:06 |
| hyakuhei | bdpayne: No harm in getting the VMT's $0.002 | 18:06 |
| tmcpeak | hmmm | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | to make sure that they agree... and can help enforce via their bug triage | 18:06 |
| paulmo | This might be controversial but I do not think log level should have anything to do with relaxing security (logging passwords and such). | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | So they already have a pretty good precedent for this | 18:07 |
| bknudson | keystone has an "insecure" setting, if you have debug=True in the config | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: +1 | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | AuthN failures are pretty obvious, I cant imagine why you'd need to log the detail. | 18:07 |
| tmcpeak | paulmo: +1 | 18:07 |
| paulmo | bknudson: That at least gives the operator a very definite understanding of what is happening when that config value is set. | 18:07 |
| hyakuhei | Ok great. paulmo can you follow up on the ML? | 18:07 |
| nkinder | in addition to logging, we need to worry about audit events (CADF) | 18:07 |
| bknudson | where keystone server will return more info to a client... so was wondering if an insecure setting could log passwords, too | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | bknudson that sounds scary... what else does this insecure setting do? | 18:08 |
| paulmo | hyakuhei: Yes, I'm going to get this wiki into shape and then I'll send this out to the ML. :) | 18:08 |
| bknudson | bdpayne: it is scary | 18:08 |
| mxin | what's ML? | 18:08 |
| nkinder | mailing list | 18:08 |
| paulmo | Mailing List | 18:08 |
| mxin | thanks. | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | paulmo sounds good, thanks for working on that | 18:08 |
| mxin | I registered the ML, but I never got any email from it. | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | paulmo: Great work :) | 18:09 |
| paulmo | No problem; then we can decide the best way to approach the rest of OpenStack once we agree to the general architecture/recommendations. | 18:09 |
| mxin | yes. Great job. Paul! | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | mxin: It's fairly low volume at the moment | 18:09 |
| mxin | ic | 18:09 |
| mxin | Thanks. | 18:09 |
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| hyakuhei | Ok, great stuff paulmo, happy for us to move on? | 18:10 |
| paulmo | Sure; thanks for the floor! | 18:10 |
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| hyakuhei | :) | 18:10 |
| hyakuhei | #topic OSSG Mid-Cycle Meetup | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSSG Mid-Cycle Meetup (Meeting topic: openstack security group)" | 18:10 | |
| hyakuhei | So, I think it would be great to have a mid-cycle meetup | 18:11 |
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| hyakuhei | for doing those things that are just too hard to do remotely or where tasks benefit from short periods of intense collaboration | 18:11 |
| hyakuhei | The book sprint being a great example of this | 18:11 |
| tmcpeak | hyakuhei: +1 | 18:11 |
| hyakuhei | I spread this around at the summit and the feedback was good. | 18:12 |
| mxin | hyakuhei: +1 | 18:12 |
| hyakuhei | I spoke to Barbican about us meeting at the same time as those guys seeing as we have so much overlap | 18:12 |
| hyakuhei | The result is that we've been invited to join the Barbican team when they do their joint meetup with Keystone | 18:12 |
| hyakuhei | However, I can't make it, niether can Nkinder and some other folks. | 18:12 |
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| hyakuhei | So I'm inclined to host an OSSG mid-cycle separately from the Barbican meetup | 18:13 |
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| mxin | sounds good | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | I hear CA is nice in the summer :-) | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | and those who want to attend the Barbican/Keystone stuff should be able to do so as individuals | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | bdpayne: So is Seattle! | 18:13 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: I can switch my vacation and make it if it has to happen with Barbican/Keystone | 18:13 |
| hyakuhei | No lets do our own thing | 18:13 |
| nkinder | ok | 18:13 |
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| hyakuhei | It's Barbicans first mid-cycle and our first one too | 18:14 |
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| hyakuhei | Lets look maybe to bring them together next time | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | yeah | 18:14 |
| nkinder | Barbican did a meetup in feb with Keystone | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | Cool, so I like the idea of us overlapping | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | should we aim for sometime in July? | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | but I'd like us in full strength for our first meetup | 18:15 |
| hyakuhei | Late July/Early August could work well | 18:15 |
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| bdpayne | early Aug will conflict with DefCon / Blackhat | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | which may be an issue with this group | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | also Usenix Security | 18:15 |
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| hyakuhei | I think we might be a bit grown-up for BH :P | 18:15 |
| hyakuhei | Yeah, so lets look at Late July then | 18:15 |
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| hyakuhei | I can arrange a location for hosting | 18:16 |
| tmcpeak | what are you all thinking timewise? an evening, a couple of days, a week? | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | However if some org that isn't mine wants to propose something I'd be happy with that too | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | tmcpeak: closer to a week | 18:16 |
| tmcpeak | awesome | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | Maybe a 4 day thing so travel isn't too disruptive | 18:16 |
| mxin | it depends on what we want to achieve | 18:16 |
| bdpayne | +1 for 4 day | 18:17 |
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| tmcpeak | 4 day sounds good | 18:17 |
| nkinder | yeah, I was thinking 3-4 days too | 18:17 |
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| mxin | 3 or 4 days | 18:17 |
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| hyakuhei | ok so we can work through the agenda to get a good feel for wether it should be 3 or 4 days. | 18:17 |
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| hyakuhei | I know there's lots to be done on the security guide | 18:17 |
| hyakuhei | I think a sprint on the guidelines that paulmo wrote would be useful | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | I think we need to revist the TA stuff, agree process and get more people involved there too, if we can work out how to do that | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | I will invite architects from other orgs to come and speak with us, describe their approaches and share their insight | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | TA? | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | Threat Analysis | 18:19 |
| bdpayne | gotcha | 18:19 |
| mxin | like threat model | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | My hope is that we can get everyone working together, through the OSSG to do threat modelling/analysis for OpenStack | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | mxin: Ya :D | 18:19 |
| CristianF | +1 to include TA | 18:19 |
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| mxin | cool | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | There's probably a bunch of smaller more tactical things we can do | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | this may also be a good time to spin up 1-2 new efforts | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | like security testing | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | or ?? | 18:20 |
| mxin | We need someone who know the products very well to have good threat model done. | 18:20 |
| nkinder | testing is a big one... | 18:20 |
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| bdpayne | if the right people show up and focus on it, the time can help launch something new | 18:20 |
| tmcpeak | yeah, I've been thinking about some security tests | 18:20 |
| tmcpeak | low hanging fruit could be a good place to start | 18:20 |
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| CristianF | probably a hackaton? :) | 18:20 |
| tmcpeak | should that go in Tempest or elsewhere? | 18:20 |
| hyakuhei | Absolutely so we've got a bunch of projects laid out that just need effort | 18:20 |
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| nkinder | as Kurt S. said in his e-mail yesterday, guidelines and recommendations only go so far. | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | I'm thinking that a big portion of this will be hackathon (or write-a-thon) | 18:20 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: wanted to do a TLS hackathon to fix all the broken implementations | 18:20 |
| mxin | We are working on security testing of API | 18:20 |
| paulmo | nkinder: +1 | 18:21 |
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| hyakuhei | Writing gate tests for low hanging fruit, use of bad functions etc is something we've been wanting to do for a long time | 18:21 |
| nkinder | hyakuhei: yeah, I want to see how much interest we get on that. There should be a thread starting on -dev shortly about it. | 18:21 |
| hyakuhei | Great | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | should we try to pick a week right now? | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | or perhaps a first and second choice? | 18:22 |
| tmcpeak | probably better to pick a week sooner than later | 18:22 |
| nkinder | I think an etherpad approach would be a good idea where we can hash out dates | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | We could look for something provisionally but it'll go through iterations on the ML I imagine | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: +1 | 18:22 |
| nkinder | ...and set agenda items too | 18:22 |
| bdpayne | ok | 18:22 |
| bdpayne | personally, if I don't nail it down soon then the dates will get taken | 18:22 |
| nkinder | bdpayne: me too | 18:22 |
| bdpayne | I suspect others are similar | 18:22 |
| mxin | agree | 18:23 |
| tmcpeak | yeah, definitely | 18:23 |
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| hyakuhei | #action bdpayne to create an etherpad and state his preference for dates for the OSSG meetup | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | :) | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | heh | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | ok | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | No reason we can't get the ball rolling in the next few hours | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | I'll have to work out an appropriate venue | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | Where are people spread? Are we mainly west-coast US? | 18:25 |
| paulmo | Austin, TX (help me escape the heat!) :) | 18:25 |
| mxin | I am at San antonio, TX | 18:25 |
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| tmcpeak | San Francisco for me | 18:25 |
| bknudson | rochester, mn | 18:25 |
| chair6 | Seattle | 18:25 |
| nkinder | San Francisco area here too | 18:26 |
| hyakuhei | Hmmm. So I guess I'll just have to see what I can get. I imagine we'll be 8-14 people | 18:26 |
| bdpayne | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ossg-juno-meetup | 18:26 |
| hyakuhei | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security/Guidelines/logging_guidelines | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, so lets hash out all the details on the etherpad | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | and look to make a decision very soon | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | hyakuhei adds value with that link ;-) | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | Now it will show up in the minutes rather than the log | 18:27 |
| hyakuhei | :P | 18:27 |
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| paulmo | Woot! | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | yeah, but wrong link | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ossg-juno-meetup | 18:27 |
| nkinder | Can I give a quick OSSN update? | 18:28 |
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| tmcpeak | please do | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | I'd like to hear it | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | Sigh. Stupid copy-paste Please do | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | please | 18:28 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic OSSN | 18:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSSN (Meeting topic: openstack security group)" | 18:28 | |
| nkinder | OSSN-0015 is up for review - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96540/ | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | :D Nice work nkinder | 18:28 |
| hyakuhei | 0014 should be put to bed soon | 18:29 |
| nkinder | I cleaned up some things on OSSN-0014, and it needs one more tweak that was pointed out. | 18:29 |
| nkinder | I'll have a new revision up in 5 minutes | 18:29 |
| hyakuhei | Great work! | 18:29 |
| tmcpeak | great job! | 18:29 |
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| nkinder | There are a few outstanding OSSNs that need authors | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | 14 has been a long haul :-) | 18:29 |
| nkinder | bdpayne: yup | 18:29 |
| nkinder | I'll send out a call to action on the security list in case any new members (or old) are interested | 18:30 |
| hyakuhei | nkinder: I'll see if I can get one of our newer members to pick up an OSSN | 18:30 |
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| hyakuhei | They're a great way to get into the whole OpenStack process | 18:30 |
| nkinder | yeah, and I think some of these are pretty easy | 18:30 |
| mxin | what's OSSN? Sorry I am new here. | 18:30 |
| nkinder | OpenStack Security Note | 18:31 |
| bdpayne | #link here's the open OSSG tickets https://bugs.launchpad.net/ossn | 18:31 |
| bdpayne | arg.. OSSN ticket | 18:31 |
| nkinder | Here are published examples... | 18:31 |
| nkinder | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Security_Notes | 18:31 |
| mxin | Got it. Thanks. | 18:31 |
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| hyakuhei | So we haven't officially extended the meeting yet which makes us mostly out of time | 18:32 |
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| hyakuhei | #topic any other business | 18:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "any other business (Meeting topic: openstack security group)" | 18:32 | |
| paulmo | IRC channel for OSSG? | 18:32 |
| hyakuhei | #openstack-security | 18:32 |
| bdpayne | does that exist? | 18:32 |
| paulmo | Thanks! Was in another one :) | 18:32 |
| hyakuhei | It does | 18:32 |
| * bdpayne is out of date | 18:33 | |
| nkinder | bdpayne: you leave for a week and everything changes... :) | 18:33 |
| hyakuhei | Someone reads the logs ;) | 18:33 |
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| * bdpayne is still catching up | 18:33 | |
| hyakuhei | I know that feeling! | 18:33 |
| hyakuhei | Ok, so anyone else for anything else? | 18:34 |
| hyakuhei | There will be a change in time and meeting length discussed soon | 18:34 |
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| hyakuhei | That'll be on the mailing list though | 18:34 |
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| bdpayne | ahh, let's please vote on the time | 18:34 |
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| hyakuhei | Can't see why we wouldn't - so long as it isn't later than the current meeting I'll be happy | 18:35 |
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| hyakuhei | Great, well thank you everyone for another productive OSSG meeting. I'll distribute the minutes shortly. | 18:35 |
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| tmcpeak | thanks everybody | 18:36 |
| bdpayne | cheers | 18:36 |
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| CristianF | bye | 18:36 |
| mxin | Thanks. Nice to meet you all. | 18:36 |
| hyakuhei | Oh and don't forget to review OSSN-0015 | 18:36 |
| mxin | bye | 18:36 |
| hyakuhei | #endmeeting | 18:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:36 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 29 18:36:20 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:36 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-29-18.00.html | 18:36 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-29-18.00.txt | 18:36 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2014/openstack_security_group.2014-05-29-18.00.log.html | 18:36 |
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| mtreinish | #startmeeting qa | 22:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu May 29 22:00:33 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | hi who's here today? | 22:00 |
| mlavalle | hi | 22:00 |
| vrovachev | hi | 22:00 |
| dpaterson | hi | 22:00 |
| masayukig | o/ | 22:00 |
| * clarkb lurks | 22:00 | |
| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_May_29_2014_.282200_UTC.29 | 22:00 |
| mtreinish | ^^^ Today's agenda | 22:01 |
| mtreinish | it's just the boilerplate one today... | 22:01 |
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| mtreinish | ok, well let's get started | 22:02 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Specs Review | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs Review (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:02 | |
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| mtreinish | so does anyone have a spec review they'd like to bring up | 22:02 |
| mtreinish | or to discuss | 22:02 |
| sdague | o/ | 22:02 |
| mtreinish | sdague: go ahead | 22:03 |
| sdague | oh, that was mostly just (I'm here) but while we're at it - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96445/ | 22:03 |
| sdague | is the write up of the javelin2 overview | 22:03 |
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| mtreinish | heh, ok well that works out :) | 22:03 |
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| sdague | so right now it mostly demonstrates the cli and the yaml that's being used. Comments welcomed | 22:04 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96445/ | 22:04 |
| sdague | also breaks down the work chunks expected for the cycle | 22:04 |
| sdague | easier read here - http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/96445/2/check/gate-qa-specs-docs/57ce662/doc/build/html/specs/javelin2.html | 22:05 |
| mtreinish | #link http://docs-draft.openstack.org/45/96445/2/check/gate-qa-specs-docs/57ce662/doc/build/html/specs/javelin2.html | 22:05 |
| sdague | that's it unless there are questions | 22:05 |
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| mtreinish | I need to look into having a place to publish the specs after they're merged at some point | 22:06 |
| mtreinish | sdague: it looks sane to me, but I'll do a detailed review once it gets a +2 from someone else | 22:06 |
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| mtreinish | which reminds me we need more reviews on qa-specs in general. Things have felt pretty stagnent on that review queue | 22:08 |
| mtreinish | but I'll bug people about that after the meeting :) | 22:08 |
| mtreinish | ok are there any other spec reviews that people want to bring up? | 22:08 |
| mlavalle | mtreinish: I want the team to know I am working on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95600/. It is for the Neutron scenarios we will be implementing in Juno. It is an early version, but please review it and give feedback | 22:08 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95600/ | 22:09 |
| mlavalle | I already got a -1 from yfried. That's what I need at this point, though | 22:09 |
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| sdague | mtreinish: yeh, I was hoping to get a new unified dashboard with all of that in place. Still haven't quite figured out a way to land project specific dashboards without bugging clarkb | 22:09 |
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| mtreinish | mlavalle: it looks like a good start though. That's about what I was expecting for that spec. | 22:10 |
| mtreinish | sdague: yeah having that dashboard might help prioritize things | 22:10 |
| mlavalle | coll, thanks! | 22:10 |
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| mtreinish | ok, if there aren't any other specs to discuss we'll move onto the next topic | 22:11 |
| * afazekas WIP: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95794/2/specs/network-debug.rst,cm | 22:11 | |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95794/2/specs/network-debug.rst,cm | 22:12 |
| masayukig | WIP: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96163/ | 22:12 |
| masayukig | ^^^ about tempest server/client/GUI spec | 22:12 |
| masayukig | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96163/ | 22:12 |
| sdague | masayukig: cool | 22:12 |
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| masayukig | sdague: thanks :) | 22:13 |
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| mlavalle | afazekas: I'll review it by this weekend | 22:13 |
| mtreinish | masayukig: oh, I bet that'll be a contentious one :) | 22:13 |
| mtreinish | don't let jogo see it... | 22:13 |
| masayukig | mtreinish: yeah... | 22:14 |
| mtreinish | afazekas: I'll do a dive down into that at some point | 22:15 |
| mtreinish | I have some concerns about doing out of band debug stuff in tree, like what we have now with the sudo stuff | 22:15 |
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| mtreinish | ok is that it for specs, or are there any others? | 22:16 |
| mtreinish | ok then let's move on | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprints | 22:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:17 | |
| mtreinish | ok, does anyone have a blueprint status update | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | I still need to do the blueprint purge | 22:17 |
| mtreinish | but we have a handful of open bps with specs approved | 22:17 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: we hit some more branchless tempest edge cases this week right? | 22:18 |
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| sdague | yeh, ceilometer has a set of tests that are impossibly long in icehouse | 22:18 |
| sdague | but work under the juno code | 22:18 |
| vrovachev | yeees :( | 22:18 |
| sdague | so we need to do some kind of signalling for those in the gate | 22:19 |
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| sdague | vrovachev: I was actually thinking about this on my bike ride today, would there be a way that we could have some ceilo extension that would give us bogomips of the system? | 22:20 |
| sdague | basically an idea of what our event processing rate might be | 22:20 |
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| sdague | then you could actually ask ceilometer, and know programatically if the tests are viable | 22:20 |
| mtreinish | sdague: just to be a bit harsh we could always rip ceilo out of the icehouse gate to get around this too... | 22:20 |
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| mtreinish | but that should be a last resort, and not something we want to do | 22:21 |
| sdague | mtreinish: we could, there aren't that many tests anyway, but it makes for a good test case | 22:21 |
| vrovachev | sdague, I think it is unlikely. | 22:21 |
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| sdague | vrovachev: the issue is I'm not very thrilled about the idea that some magic piece of information is needed to know if this would work in a cloud | 22:22 |
| sdague | because it's not discoverable | 22:22 |
| sdague | and the thing we were planning to have to use this for was new extensions, which are discoverable | 22:22 |
| sdague | so this is a very weird thing | 22:23 |
| mtreinish | sdague: we do have other non-discoverable feature flags in the config now | 22:23 |
| mtreinish | not many though | 22:23 |
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| sdague | mtreinish: not in the feature matrix though | 22:23 |
| mtreinish | that's fair because most of them don't work in the gate anyway | 22:23 |
| mtreinish | and if they do they default on | 22:24 |
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| sdague | anyway, can probably take it offline | 22:24 |
| mtreinish | sdague: you're right a prereq for doing this should be having ceilo have some kind of discovery that sql actually works | 22:24 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: yeah let's take this offline | 22:24 |
| mtreinish | ok are there any other bp status updates? | 22:25 |
| vrovachev | I do not know how you can work around this problem in tempest. because problem in the ceilo api in icehouce | 22:25 |
| mtreinish | ok if there aren't any other bps let's move on | 22:26 |
| mtreinish | #topic Neutron testing | 22:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Neutron testing (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:26 | |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: this is your topic right? | 22:26 |
| mlavalle | mtreinish: yeah | 22:26 |
| mlavalle | another couple of api tests merged since last meeting | 22:27 |
| mlavalle | we are at 25 only another 3 to go | 22:27 |
| mlavalle | to complete the set we defined in January | 22:27 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: we're getting there... | 22:27 |
| mtreinish | how many new apis were added since that list though? | 22:27 |
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| mlavalle | also made progress this week with fwaas and vpaas scenario tests | 22:27 |
| mlavalle | we will be able to implement in one devstack | 22:28 |
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| mlavalle | no need of multinode for those tests | 22:28 |
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| mlavalle | and finally I am tracking what markmcclain is doing as far as nova network parity, in case help is needed | 22:29 |
| mlavalle | that's all I have this week | 22:29 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: that's too bad I was actually hoping that would be a motivator to actually get someone to set up multinode soon | 22:29 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: ok, thanks | 22:29 |
| mtreinish | does anyone have anything else to add on neutron testing? | 22:29 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: do you know where we stand with a parallel full run | 22:29 |
| mlavalle | multinode will be needed for other scenarios, so I still see it as my cause | 22:29 |
| mlavalle | :-) | 22:30 |
| mtreinish | because I think we need to get that in before we start ramping up more tests? | 22:30 |
| mlavalle | agree | 22:30 |
| mtreinish | I can bug rossella_s and salv_orlando about that later though | 22:30 |
| mlavalle | ok | 22:31 |
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| mtreinish | ok, if no one else has anything to discuss about neutron testing let's move on | 22:31 |
| mtreinish | #topic Bugs | 22:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:31 | |
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| mtreinish | so I haven't had a chance to look at the bug list lately, I imagine it's grown since our last bug day | 22:32 |
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| mtreinish | but does anyone have any bugs they'd like to bring up | 22:32 |
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| mtreinish | or anything else to talk about open bugs | 22:32 |
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| sdague | not here, I just want to bug masayukig to take a look at my javelin patches - https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/tempest+branch:master+topic:bp/javelin2,n,z :) | 22:33 |
| mtreinish | heh, ok well that's a good segway into the next topic | 22:33 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Critical Reviews | 22:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:34 | |
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| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/tempest+branch:master+topic:bp/javelin2,n,z | 22:34 |
| sdague | note, we discovered at summit that javelin wasn't doing what we thought | 22:34 |
| masayukig | sdague: sure | 22:34 |
| mtreinish | yes someone look at those | 22:34 |
| mtreinish | just so sdague stops bugging me about it :) | 22:34 |
| sdague | so this is an attempt to do a rebuild that will live in tempest that we can call from grenade | 22:34 |
| sdague | :P | 22:34 |
| mtreinish | does anyone else have any reviews they'd like to get extra eyes on? | 22:35 |
| sdague | well, I'm antsy to start actually testing resources living across upgrades again... | 22:35 |
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| afazekas | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94203/ | 22:35 |
| mtreinish | afazekas: yeah that's probably a good fix | 22:37 |
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| sdague | afazekas: can we simplify that code a bit, map filter, and 2 lambdas are kind of dense | 22:37 |
| afazekas | sdague: basically it is copied from the same api test | 22:38 |
| sdague | what about computes = [x for x in hosts if x.service == 'compute'] | 22:38 |
| sdague | and then computes[0].host_name | 22:38 |
| sdague | afazekas: it's still pretty dense | 22:38 |
| afazekas | ok | 22:38 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: heh, I was fine with it, but that'll probably be a bit easier to read | 22:39 |
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| mtreinish | ok are there any other reviews? | 22:39 |
| sdague | yeh, as someone that spent much of this week reading odd parts of tempest, I'm all for future readability | 22:39 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/92606/ | 22:39 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/92519 | 22:40 |
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| mtreinish | the first should fix a periodic failure | 22:40 |
| sdague | +2 to the first one | 22:40 |
| mtreinish | and the second has just been sitting for a little bit | 22:40 |
| mtreinish | ok well if there aren't any other review, let's open the floor | 22:41 |
| sdague | the -1 on that one is probably fair, to respin the readme | 22:41 |
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| mtreinish | sdague: oh I completely missed the -1 | 22:41 |
| mtreinish | I only saw the +2 sorry | 22:41 |
| mtreinish | #topic Open Discussion | 22:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: qa)" | 22:42 | |
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| mtreinish | ok, does anyone have a topic they'd like to bring up that wasn't on the agenda | 22:42 |
| vrovachev | guys, please see sahara api tests https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90101/ | 22:42 |
| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90101/ | 22:42 |
| vrovachev | thanks :) | 22:43 |
| sdague | mtreinish: what about a preview of the mid cycle event? | 22:43 |
| mtreinish | oh yeah that's a good idea :) | 22:44 |
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| sdague | what's your thinking for both bootstrapping days and the QA dedicated day? | 22:44 |
| ylobankov | vrovachev: :) | 22:44 |
| mtreinish | so for the bootstrapping days it's going to be an overview of both how infra works | 22:44 |
| mtreinish | and an explanation of tempest and grenade | 22:44 |
| sdague | #info QA / Infra Mid Cycle July 14 - 18 | 22:44 |
| mtreinish | how they work etc... | 22:44 |
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| mtreinish | for the dedicated qa day, I was thinking we either could have a day of f2f discussion | 22:45 |
| mtreinish | or if there was a topic we needed to work through we could have a hacking day | 22:45 |
| sdague | ok, would be interesting to get a rough agenda, even if it's just broken up by "morning / afternoon" topics across the days. | 22:45 |
| mtreinish | sdague: yeah I need to work with jeblair to get more details ironed out | 22:45 |
| sdague | coolio | 22:45 |
| mtreinish | I should also say the schedule I posted to the ML is tenantive | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | we might move things around a bit | 22:46 |
| sdague | ok | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | and steal a bootstrapping day for more qa stuff if we need it | 22:46 |
| sdague | well good to get that nailed down soon, as I expect people will be starting to sort out travel soon | 22:46 |
| mtreinish | for those who missed the post: | 22:47 |
| mtreinish | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/036262.html | 22:47 |
| masayukig | The mid-cycle meet-up is interesting! But I need to talk my boss(es) to get the budget. | 22:47 |
| masayukig | Germany is very far from Japan... | 22:47 |
| mtreinish | mlavalle: you're a boss now though :) | 22:47 |
| masayukig | mtreinish: heh :) | 22:47 |
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| mtreinish | also if anyone has suggestions on something they'd like to see for the mid-cycle, please ping me | 22:48 |
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| mtreinish | ok are there any other topics to discuss? otherwise we'll end a little early today | 22:49 |
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| vrovachev | heh, go to sleep :) in Russia 2.49 AM | 22:50 |
| mtreinish | ok, well I guess I'll call it for today | 22:50 |
| mtreinish | thanks everyone | 22:50 |
| mtreinish | #endmeeting | 22:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:50 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu May 29 22:50:33 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:50 |
| masayukig | thanks | 22:50 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-29-22.00.html | 22:50 |
| vrovachev | thanks :) | 22:50 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-29-22.00.txt | 22:50 |
| mlavalle | see you | 22:50 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-05-29-22.00.log.html | 22:50 |
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| ylobankov | thanks | 22:51 |
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