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| * annegentle waves | 13:59 | |
| annegentle | who's here for doc team meeting? | 13:59 |
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| annegentle | hey dianefleming | 14:00 |
| annegentle | ok, I'll go ahead and start | 14:00 |
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| dianefleming | sounds good and good morning everyone | 14:00 |
| annegentle | #startmeeting DocTeamMeeting | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 14:01:20 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteammeeting' | 14:01 |
| annegentle | Ok, the agenda is here: | 14:01 |
| annegentle | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 14:01 |
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| annegentle | looking for the Actions | 14:02 |
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| annegentle | #topic Action items from last meeting | 14:02 |
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| annegentle | Ok, this one is not done, but I have notes. | 14:02 |
| annegentle | Anne to write a blog post describing all the titles and their priorities (we'd want integrated projects to "plug in" are install, config, admin, ops; security and HA are secondary) | 14:02 |
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| annegentle | and | 14:02 |
| annegentle | Anne to follow up with HP Cloud's Spector for a podcast/screencast | 14:02 |
| annegentle | which is also not complete, but in the works | 14:02 |
| annegentle | That's it for actions | 14:03 |
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| annegentle | #topic Monthly Google Hangout starting Jan 2014 | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Monthly Google Hangout starting Jan 2014 (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:04 | |
| annegentle | welcome Sam-I-Am | 14:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | morning | 14:04 |
| annegentle | We had a great Hangout and I got good input that we want to continue those, so we'll start them up monthly in January | 14:04 |
| annegentle | Give input on your favorite days/times so we can all gather 'round and chat | 14:05 |
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| annegentle | #topic Operations Guide developmental edit | 14:05 |
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| annegentle | As most of you probably know, the Ops Guide is being edited by O'Reilly | 14:06 |
| annegentle | We have our first set of comments, mostly high level, and next week we'll have annotaed PDFs of the first couple of chapters | 14:06 |
| annegentle | I can't spell annotated apparently | 14:06 |
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| annegentle | then, by mid-January, we'll have edits of the entire book, and at the end of January we're doing a mini sprint in Boston with the original authors | 14:07 |
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| nermina | nice | 14:07 |
| annegentle | I think Brian, the O'Reilly editor, can meet us those days since they're nearby | 14:07 |
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| Sam-I-Am | how does one get involved in these things? | 14:08 |
| chandankumar | hello | 14:08 |
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| nermina | maybe a scheduler like tom used could be helpful for hangouts | 14:08 |
| annegentle | Some of the tasks: expand the preface to situate the Ops Guide in relation to the other guides, an intro chapter about OpenStack showing a high-level overview and emphasizing how components work together | 14:08 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: good question. The original criteria for authors was having run OpenStack for at least six months in production as of last Feb. | 14:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | ok, thats definitely not me :/ | 14:09 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: yeah it's tough to turn away willing authors but it's experience that's needed | 14:09 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: but, you could certainly review edits as they go in and comment, especially the overview, since you have fresh eyes | 14:10 |
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| Sam-I-Am | probably | 14:10 |
| annegentle | Another interesting comment we're working through is that the book contains tactics but not a lot of strategy | 14:10 |
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| annegentle | My favorite is that it is quite "clean" heh | 14:10 |
| annegentle | So we'll answer questions like, how does the cloud controller make your job easier? what do you need to be concerned about? | 14:11 |
| annegentle | any questions on that? | 14:11 |
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| Sam-I-Am | how can i take a look at it? | 14:11 |
| chandankumar | annegentle, That will be going to be great for us. | 14:11 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: the book itself is at http://docs.openstack.org/ops | 14:12 |
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| Sam-I-Am | thanks | 14:12 |
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| annegentle | let's see, what's next | 14:12 |
| annegentle | #topic Doc core can now set a patch to WIP | 14:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc core can now set a patch to WIP (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:12 | |
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| annegentle | This is just a public service reminder as a new part of our review process | 14:13 |
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| annegentle | Anyone up for updating the wiki with the new ability to set a patch as WIP? | 14:14 |
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| annegentle | I think it goes in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#Reviewing_Documentation | 14:14 |
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| chandankumar | annegentle, i will do that | 14:14 |
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| annegentle | chandankumar: thanks! | 14:14 |
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| annegentle | #action chandankumar to update https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#Reviewing_Documentation with note about WIP | 14:14 |
| chandankumar | annegentle, yw :) | 14:14 |
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| annegentle | #topic Doc tools update - openstack-doc-tools repository | 14:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools update - openstack-doc-tools repository (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:15 | |
| annegentle | Andreas has been working steadily at the new repo setup | 14:15 |
| annegentle | Here's a link to the review queue | 14:16 |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-doc-tools,n,z | 14:16 |
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| annegentle | He's also working through the right way to get consistent gate checks on all the docs repos | 14:17 |
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| annegentle | This move also helps with building translated documents | 14:17 |
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| annegentle | any questions? | 14:17 |
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| annegentle | #topic Doc Bug Day Dec 20 | 14:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc Bug Day Dec 20 (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:18 | |
| chandankumar | i will review the doctools | 14:18 |
| annegentle | Ok, this is going to be a fun day | 14:18 |
| chandankumar | yes | 14:18 |
| annegentle | chandankumar: thank you! Needs reviewers for sure | 14:18 |
| annegentle | My team at Rackspace is going to help where they can | 14:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | some of us need a walk-through for fixing bugs | 14:18 |
| annegentle | I've been triaging bugs in anticipation | 14:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | so i dont screw stuff up :) | 14:18 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: no worries about screwing up, it won't get through reviewers if it is screwy :) | 14:19 |
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| Sam-I-Am | there is that... | 14:19 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: my hope is to have triaged bugs so that there are ones anyone can pick up | 14:19 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: some of doc bug day will be triaging too, so if you know the answers, make a comment in the bug | 14:19 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: and hopefully fix a bunch, close some, consolidate | 14:19 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I'd be happy to walk you through on IRC any time | 14:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | most of mine are filed but there's plenty of things that could use rewording for streamlining/consolidating or major rewriting | 14:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | s/for/or | 14:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | <- early here | 14:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | i'll take you up on that offer | 14:21 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: heh. well, doc bug day is not for major rewriting, but it is a good chance to dig into books | 14:21 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: cool, I have notes from a workshop, I'll put them on the wiki | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | thanks | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | hopefully there's not much more to making neutron work in the ubuntu/redhat install guides | 14:22 |
| annegentle | It's funny, that's the day before holiday break for some of us | 14:22 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I am hoping you can sort through the comments and existing bugs and figure out the core issues | 14:22 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: that would be a good doc bug day task | 14:22 |
| annegentle | goal | 14:22 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I think it's close | 14:23 |
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| annegentle | Ok, that's all I had on the agenda | 14:23 |
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| Sam-I-Am | ok | 14:23 |
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| annegentle | #topic Open Discussion | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 14:23 | |
| annegentle | welcome AJaeger! | 14:23 |
| AJaeger | Sorry for beeing late... | 14:23 |
| AJaeger | Hi annegentle and Everybody else ;) | 14:23 |
| nermina | hi ajaeger, my savior | 14:24 |
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| AJaeger | nermina, you should be sleeping ;) | 14:24 |
| nermina | lol | 14:24 |
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| AJaeger | did you discuss the openstack-doc-tools repo? | 14:24 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: yep, sure did! | 14:24 |
| AJaeger | ah, then I'll read minutes lateron... | 14:25 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-meeting/%23openstack-meeting.2013-12-10.log | 14:25 |
| annegentle | :) | 14:25 |
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| chandankumar | anderstj, can i github repo link of openstack-doc-tools? | 14:25 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: I think the devstack-checkout job is the way to go, for replication | 14:26 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: I'll write back on the list | 14:26 |
| annegentle | nermina: AJaeger sounds like you have a good plan for moving forward with the training guide? | 14:27 |
| AJaeger | annegentle, let's give it a try - if it works out, great, if not we adjust ;) | 14:27 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: yep, sounds just right | 14:27 |
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| AJaeger | regarding the training guide: Not sure how to handle the section/chapter problem in the best way... | 14:27 |
| nermina | annegentle, sean's team on board and it might just work out | 14:28 |
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| AJaeger | Using xpointer is one option - but an ugly hack IMO | 14:28 |
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| nermina | i'm meeting pranav sometime today | 14:28 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: xpointer is probably the right way, but does make for more maintenance, what's another way to share content? | 14:28 |
| AJaeger | annegentle, creating one large chapter perhaps? No good idea yet - but I don't have much experience here | 14:30 |
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| nermina | i need to give it a fresh look, annegentle ajeager | 14:30 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: I thought about a chapter wrapper, but maybe that's what they're doing already | 14:30 |
| annegentle | nermina: is pranav the person Sean's handing off to? | 14:31 |
| nermina | yes, he's my goto guy | 14:31 |
| annegentle | nermina: ok, cool | 14:32 |
| nermina | he said he knows how to fix the problem. i just haven't had the chance to connect in real time due to time zones. | 14:32 |
| annegentle | nermina: oh right, Aussie | 14:32 |
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| loq_mac | where in australia? | 14:32 |
| loq_mac | can i help? | 14:32 |
| nermina | but we'll find the time | 14:32 |
| annegentle | Speaking of Aussies, I do want to make sure people know I don't expect people to attend a meeting that's so out of their time zone it would drive them batty :) | 14:32 |
| annegentle | Two a month should hopefully be sufficient | 14:33 |
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| nermina | loq_mac, thanks, we're doing cross-pollination between training guides and cloud admin guide | 14:33 |
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| annegentle | Also, MirandaZhang starts her internship next week | 14:33 |
| annegentle | She's in Australia too, Canberra. dianefleming is her mentor and loq_mac should be able to help as well for any in-Aussie-time needs | 14:33 |
| loq_mac | i'm in canberra from 26 dec to 5 jan, IIRC | 14:34 |
| loq_mac | so i'll try and grab a coffee with her then | 14:34 |
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| nermina | love that we have interns | 14:34 |
| loq_mac | :D | 14:34 |
| annegentle | nermina: yes! | 14:35 |
| annegentle | I miss Laura Alves :) | 14:36 |
| nermina | what happened? | 14:36 |
| annegentle | nermina: oh she went back to school! | 14:36 |
| nermina | ah | 14:36 |
| annegentle | nermina: it's what you do :) | 14:36 |
| annegentle | ok, that's all I've got | 14:36 |
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| annegentle | ta! | 14:36 |
| annegentle | #endmeeting | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:36 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 14:36:42 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:36 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-10-14.01.html | 14:36 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-10-14.01.txt | 14:36 |
| loq_mac | thanks annegentle | 14:36 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-10-14.01.log.html | 14:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | thanks anne | 14:36 |
| nermina | thank you, annegentle | 14:36 |
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| chandankumar | thanks annegentle | 14:37 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting scheduler | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 15:00:21 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 15:00 |
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| n0ano | anyone here for the scheduler meeting? | 15:00 |
| MikeSpreitzer | yes | 15:00 |
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| alaski | o/ | 15:01 |
| trey_h | si | 15:01 |
| glikson | hi | 15:01 |
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| cloudon_ | yes | 15:01 |
| cfriesen_ | yup | 15:01 |
| llu-laptop | hello | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | #topic Scheduler as a service | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Scheduler as a service (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:02 | |
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| n0ano | anyone have a chance to go over the BP I referred to in the agenda? | 15:02 |
| alaski | do you have a link? | 15:03 |
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| jgallard | hi all : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/forklift-scheduler-breakout | 15:03 |
| n0ano | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/forklift-scheduler-breakout | 15:03 |
| alaski | thanks | 15:03 |
| toan-tran | hi all | 15:03 |
| n0ano | note that `as a service' is a little bit of a miss-nomer, the current effor is mainly to split the scheduler code into it's own repository... | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | after that it should be possible to turn it into a separate service | 15:04 |
| MikeSpreitzer | That bp refers to the etherpad we all saw and the ML discussion | 15:04 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer, indeed, I want to see if there are any issues/concerns as we are actively working on implementing that BP | 15:04 |
| cloudon1 | think the agenda referenced the no-db-scheduler BP? | 15:04 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | that was item 2 | 15:05 |
| n0ano | cloudon1, second topic for today | 15:05 |
| cloudon1 | ok, thanks | 15:05 |
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| toan-tran | MikeSpreitzer: but I think we could fusion the two | 15:05 |
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| toan-tran | actually there are two approaches: | 15:06 |
| toan-tran | one with Robert idea of forflifting first, separate DB latter | 15:06 |
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| glikson | n0ano: I'm curious, who exactly is "actively working on implementing that BP"? | 15:06 |
| toan-tran | one with Boris': separate DB first , forklift latter | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | glikson, me for one, I'm trying to create the initial scheduler only repo that everyone can then start working on | 15:07 |
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| glikson | n0ano: cool | 15:07 |
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| n0ano | I actually have the first cut ready (https://github.com/n0ano/gantt), I'd like to move it to an official place soon and open it up to eveyone | 15:08 |
| * n0ano git foo is getting better | 15:08 | |
| cfriesen_ | n0ano: are you on the forklift first, change other stuff later" | 15:08 |
| cfriesen_ | plan? | 15:08 |
| n0ano | cfriesen_, yes, that will cause a little duplicated updating but otherwise we might get delayed waiting for no-db to be ready | 15:09 |
| llu-laptop | n0ano: does the new repo means new stackforge projects in Jenkins? | 15:09 |
| glikson | I guess it might be useful if someone could outline the work items on launchpad, so that people who are interested to contribute could have a better view of what is going on.. | 15:09 |
| garyk | n0ano: gantt? as in gantt chart :) | 15:09 |
| alaski | n0ano: I agree. forklift first means we're not waiting, boris can keep working while it's happening | 15:10 |
| n0ano | garyk, my alterntaive was pert if gantt doesn't work :-) | 15:10 |
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| n0ano | glikson, that's what the refterenced BP points to, a detailed etherpad with the forklift steps | 15:10 |
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| n0ano | llu-laptop, yes, I believe eventually a new project will be created, once we move to scheduler as a service | 15:11 |
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| llu-laptop | how about putting the TODO list in the workItem section of BP to make it more easily to be found | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | llu-laptop, I would suggest that the etherpad is the appropriate place for that, easily referenced from the BP | 15:12 |
| llu-laptop | n0ano: then before that, what about if someone want to propose a patch to the new repo? | 15:13 |
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| n0ano | llu-laptop, not sure what your question is | 15:13 |
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| garyk | n0ano: question is how to get this into stackforge and then having all of the relevant processed in tack | 15:14 |
| n0ano | garyk, llu-laptop I'm working with russellb to create the initial, bare bones repo, once we have that my assumption is it gets linked into the infrastructure so that gerrit workflows will work against it | 15:15 |
| garyk | ok, thanks for the clarification | 15:15 |
| n0ano | we absolutely want the current work flow, with patch approval process, to happen as soon as possible | 15:16 |
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| * n0ano bootstrapping is always a little messy | 15:16 | |
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| alaski | llu-laptop: For now you would propose patches against the current scheduler code, but depending on the scope of the patch you may be asked to wait until the new repo is up and re propose there | 15:17 |
| n0ano | alaski, +1 | 15:18 |
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| llu-laptop | n0ano, alaski: got that, thanks | 15:18 |
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| n0ano | the goal is not to stop development (at the expense of some extra work to update two repos potentially) | 15:19 |
| n0ano | sounds like we all understand, if there are no other issues we can move on | 15:19 |
| n0ano | boris-42, yt? | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | #topic instance groups | 15:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "instance groups (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:20 | |
| n0ano | while waiting to see if boris-42 is around, garyk do you have an update on instance groups | 15:20 |
| boris-42 | n0ano ouch hi | 15:20 |
| n0ano | garyk, hold off a sec | 15:20 |
| n0ano | boris-42, tnx | 15:21 |
| n0ano | #topic no-db scheduler | 15:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "no-db scheduler (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:21 | |
| boris-42 | n0ano so I am here | 15:21 |
| n0ano | boris-42, I saw you link to the BP, nice write up, what the status of the changes | 15:21 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano alaski garyk did you read the doc? | 15:21 |
| hnarkaytis | let me give update on patch status | 15:21 |
| hnarkaytis | design docs were shared yesterday | 15:22 |
| n0ano | boris-42, I did | 15:22 |
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| hnarkaytis | right now work focused on test suite | 15:22 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano yep let hnarkaytis share with us | 15:22 |
| alaski | boris-42: I haven't yet, sorry. let me go find it | 15:23 |
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| n0ano | cloudon1, this was your interest, do you have any questions? | 15:23 |
| hnarkaytis | there is a plan to add two more patches that will complete integration of the no-db schema | 15:23 |
| hnarkaytis | that's it - patches are ready for reviews | 15:23 |
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| n0ano | cool, I like the exmphasis on testing, good point | 15:24 |
| cfriesen_ | do we have performance numbers? | 15:24 |
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| hnarkaytis | yes - we prepared extended doc on this | 15:24 |
| hnarkaytis | I will share draft tomorrow | 15:24 |
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| hnarkaytis | 100x gain for memchached | 15:24 |
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| n0ano | hnarkaytis, one point, sounds like you have more development to do but also have patches ready for review, when do you think you'll be complete? | 15:25 |
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| hnarkaytis | end-to-end story will be complete till end of this week | 15:25 |
| hnarkaytis | right now we presented only a Synchronizer object | 15:26 |
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| hnarkaytis | two additional patches will replace existing approach on new one | 15:26 |
| MikeSpreitzer | BTW, what is URL for "design docs were shared yesterday" | 15:26 |
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| hnarkaytis | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/scheduler-design-proposal | 15:26 |
| hnarkaytis | https://docs.google.com/a/mirantis.com/document/d/1irmDDYWWKWAGWECX8bozu8AAmzgQxMCAAdjhk53L9aM/edit | 15:27 |
| hnarkaytis | I posted into mail thread | 15:27 |
| MikeSpreitzer | thanks | 15:27 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | mind if I add those to the BP? | 15:27 |
| hnarkaytis | this mail thread - [openstack-dev] [Nova][Schduler] Volunteers wanted for a modest proposal for an external scheduler in our lifetime | 15:27 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer, note, those are the same doc, just different locations | 15:27 |
| MikeSpreitzer | which two are the same? | 15:28 |
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| hnarkaytis | etherpad and google doc are the same | 15:29 |
| n0ano | https://etherpad & https://docs.google.com just given by hnarkaytis | 15:29 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | that's odd, they look different to me | 15:29 |
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| hnarkaytis | this is copy/paste - read any of them | 15:29 |
| n0ano | I just looked an, barring formatting, they have the same content | 15:29 |
| MikeSpreitzer | OK | 15:30 |
| MikeSpreitzer | So if the BP references just one of those, which should it be? | 15:30 |
| hnarkaytis | as soon as last two patches will be ready - we will notify all subscribed reviewers | 15:30 |
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| n0ano | I'd vote for the etherpad, keep it in the family | 15:31 |
| hnarkaytis | yes - lets use etherpad for references | 15:31 |
| llu-laptop | hnarkaytis: how about update the BP with the latest URL? | 15:31 |
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| hnarkaytis | ok - will do | 15:31 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Yeah, "Set the URL for this specification" | 15:31 |
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| n0ano | hnarkaytis, boris-42 - good work, tnx for the effort, anyone have any other questions for them today? | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | moving on | 15:34 |
| n0ano | #topic instance groups | 15:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "instance groups (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:34 | |
| n0ano | garyk, anything to say? | 15:34 |
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| hnarkaytis | just a quick note on performance test issue - document with performance numbers is referenced in BP https://docs.google.com/a/mirantis.com/document/d/1_DRv7it_mwalEZzLy5WO92TJcummpmWL4NWsWf0UWiQ/edit | 15:36 |
| n0ano | looks like I scared him off, I'll talk to garyk via email | 15:36 |
| n0ano | #topic mid-cycle meetup | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mid-cycle meetup (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:37 | |
| n0ano | there will be a meetup in Feb in Utah, I'm going to try to attend, will anyone else be there? | 15:37 |
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| alaski | I should be there | 15:37 |
| n0ano | looks like the scheduler won't have a major presence there but hopefully will be a good meetup anyway | 15:39 |
| n0ano | #opens | 15:39 |
| n0ano | Any new items anyone wants to raise today? | 15:39 |
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| llu-laptop | just one suggestion, how about next time we put agenda to #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Scheduler? | 15:40 |
| llu-laptop | sorry, https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Scheduler | 15:41 |
| n0ano | llu-laptop, I can try but I'm notoriously lax about updating Wiki, we'll see if I can motivate myself to do that | 15:41 |
| * n0ano like email :-) | 15:41 | |
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| n0ano | OK, I want to thank everyone and we'll talk next week (probably cancel the two after that but we can discuss that next week) | 15:42 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:43 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 15:43:15 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:43 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-10-15.00.html | 15:43 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-10-15.00.txt | 15:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-10-15.00.log.html | 15:43 |
| alaski | thanks | 15:43 |
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| boris-42 | hey all | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting | 17:06 |
| openstack | boris-42: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:06 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 17:06:23 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:06 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:06 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | msdubov harlowja jaypipes hi | 17:07 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 hi | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | jd__ hi | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 hi | 17:09 |
| Alexei_987 | Hi :) | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | jog0 ping | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | Ok let's start | 17:09 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Updates in benchmark engine | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Updates in benchmark engine (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:10 | |
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| boris-42 | msdubov can you share with us | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | msdubov your recent efforts | 17:10 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 The main update is no doubt the patch implementing the generic cloud cleanup after launching benchmarks implemented by boden | 17:11 |
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| msdubov | It has been merged today and required me to put a lot of efforts on rebasing my patches | 17:11 |
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| msdubov | As for my patches, they are implementing the init() procedure, which is a kind of the opposite thing to cleanup. In init(), one can initialize some resources required for a benchmark scenario, e.g. servers | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | msdubov I saw some concerns from Alexei_987 | 17:12 |
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| msdubov | I also exemplify it with the patch that implements the benchmark scenario for setting and deleting metadata to a predefined (in init()) server | 17:13 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Yep they are addressing the way the benchmark engine works currently | 17:13 |
| Alexei_987 | boris-42: msdubov yes | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 do you have some ideas how to improve it? | 17:13 |
| msdubov | The restrictions posed by multiprocessing tool used in the benchmark engine lead to a somewhat ugly way of implementing the engine. | 17:13 |
| msdubov | *pool | 17:13 |
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| Alexei_987 | boris-42: msdubov our benchmarking system is a lot alike unittest framework | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 not sure | 17:14 |
| Alexei_987 | and I think we should reuse their code and experience | 17:14 |
| Alexei_987 | why not? | 17:14 |
| Alexei_987 | they have setUp/tearDown + run | 17:14 |
| eyerediskin | why not using threads? | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 yep but they don't have billions of temp users | 17:14 |
| Alexei_987 | otherwise we'll have to reinvent the wheel all over again | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 projects | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 resources that should be cleaned | 17:14 |
| Alexei_987 | why do you think they don't? | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and unit test are run only 1 time | 17:15 |
| Alexei_987 | unittest is used in many various scenarios | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 we already use pytest as a base of our benchmark system | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 it was made by Eugeniy | 17:15 |
| Alexei_987 | anyway I'm not talking about using unittest | 17:15 |
| msdubov | eyerediskin I suppose threads will pose the same restrictions on the things we can pass to the called methods? The primary problem actually is we can't pass openstack clients to benchmark scenarios | 17:15 |
| Alexei_987 | I'm talking about that current design that we have has many issues | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 like? | 17:16 |
| Alexei_987 | related to code organization | 17:16 |
| Alexei_987 | object creation and so on | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and how are you going to avoid object creation using pytest unit test or something other? | 17:16 |
| Alexei_987 | I've mentioned one of them to msdubov | 17:16 |
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| Alexei_987 | for example classmethod can only be called under certain conditions | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 I mean let's start from task | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 we have 1 method that is benchmark scenario | 17:17 |
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| msdubov | Alexei_987 Yep the possible bug you mentioned indeed can take place, but in fact the benchmark engine manages classes in such a way that this cannot happen | 17:17 |
| Alexei_987 | ok.. I mean that unittest and other big frameworks have certain way and procedure of when and how to create objects | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 could you explain | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 on current task | 17:18 |
| Alexei_987 | for example our problem is that we have to pass objects to other process | 17:18 |
| Alexei_987 | which is bad | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 yep but how are you going to fix it? | 17:18 |
| Alexei_987 | they should be created where they are actually used | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 no | 17:19 |
| eyerediskin | create object in process instead of passing it? | 17:19 |
| Alexei_987 | without passing them all over the system | 17:19 |
| Alexei_987 | yes | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 no | 17:19 |
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| Alexei_987 | why not? | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 because the case is another | 17:19 |
| eyerediskin | just like setUp method in tests | 17:19 |
| msdubov | Alexei_987 But we may launch a benchmark scenario millions of times, and we want to create OpenStack clients only once | 17:19 |
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| Alexei_987 | why? | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 because we are testing not abstract shit=) | 17:19 |
| eyerediskin | objects are created once thread/process is started | 17:19 |
| Alexei_987 | creation of a python object takes almost 0 ms | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 creation of billions users take a lot of time | 17:20 |
| eyerediskin | agreed with Alexei_987 | 17:20 |
| Alexei_987 | users yes but not clients | 17:20 |
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| Alexei_987 | you can pass user credential | 17:20 |
| Alexei_987 | plain dict | 17:20 |
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| Alexei_987 | and create a complex object later | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and Floting IPs FixedIps | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 images | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 other stuff that you need in init | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 also if you put this to thread | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 then you will need to create them in each method | 17:21 |
| eyerediskin | this stuff created once per process/thread. created only objects needed by process/thread | 17:21 |
| Alexei_987 | what do you mean by each method? | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 eyerediskin https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/scenarios/nova/servers.py#L29-L37 | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 eyerediskin this method get's random clients in cls | 17:22 |
| Alexei_987 | clients? | 17:22 |
| Alexei_987 | I don't see any clients in there | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 yep clients | 17:22 |
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| msdubov | Alexei_987 (chosen randomly of many client users) | 17:22 |
| msdubov | Alexei_987 they are used in utils | 17:22 |
| Alexei_987 | so it chooses a random user credential | 17:22 |
| Alexei_987 | please be precise | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 https://github.com/stackforge/rally/blob/master/rally/benchmark/scenarios/nova/utils.py#L28-L49 | 17:23 |
| Alexei_987 | client is not tied to user | 17:23 |
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| Alexei_987 | the only things that connects it to the user is auth token | 17:23 |
| Alexei_987 | again let's separate clients and users | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | user -> auth_token is just a string | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 again I don't care about users | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 in becnhmarks | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | why not? | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 I care about clients | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | clients? | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | then I must have missed something | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 glacne, nova, keystone, …. clients for this user | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | so... | 17:24 |
| Alexei_987 | there is a word user | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987l so I would like to be able cls.clients("nova").servers.create(server_name, image_id, | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | flavor_id, **kwargs) | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | cls.clients("nova") | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | use from benchmark dirrectly | 17:25 |
| Alexei_987 | yes but user is hidden inside | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 yep | 17:25 |
| Alexei_987 | so we can change code in such a way that we only pass users | 17:25 |
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| Alexei_987 | and not clients | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 why | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 to create in each method client every time by hand? | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 it is called "copy paste" | 17:26 |
| Alexei_987 | (facepalm) | 17:26 |
| Alexei_987 | client manager can handle this | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 in each benchmark I need clients | 17:26 |
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| Alexei_987 | and reuse 1 client object for 1000 benchmarks | 17:26 |
| Alexei_987 | just bind it to certain user before usage | 17:26 |
| Alexei_987 | the main idea is that we have to define data flow | 17:27 |
| Alexei_987 | and data dependencies | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 hm I don't understand | 17:27 |
| Alexei_987 | so we won't have to apply dirty hacks to make it work | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 we need to be able to pass the same data in every thread | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 or even more different data | 17:28 |
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| Alexei_987 | why we should do it? | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 in every call of method | 17:28 |
| Alexei_987 | we should only pass data that is used in that thread | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ? | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and it could be all data from INIT | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 that is called only 1 time | 17:29 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 like create 20k fixed IPs | 17:29 |
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| Alexei_987 | and 1 tests uses all 20k fixed ips? | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 I don't know what will test use | 17:29 |
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| Alexei_987 | ok.. such discussion is not productive at all | 17:30 |
| Alexei_987 | need additional digging in here | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 lol | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 we should talk about user case | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 my user case was next | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 use case* | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 then it will be more clean | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | msdubov could you write etherpad with full description about our use cases and how they are implemented | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | msdubov Alexei_987 ^ so we will be able to continue this discussion next week | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's close this discussion a got to another topic | 17:32 |
| Alexei_987 | ok :) | 17:32 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 ok | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | #topic Profiling system | 17:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Profiling system (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:32 | |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 could you say for jd__ and jog0 current status of your work | 17:33 |
| Alexei_987 | cool :) | 17:33 |
| Alexei_987 | I have 1 patch in ceilometer on review | 17:33 |
| Alexei_987 | that adds data collector functionality | 17:33 |
| Alexei_987 | + I have 1 patch in process of polishing in nova | 17:33 |
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| Alexei_987 | that adds library that will collect and send data | 17:34 |
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| Alexei_987 | that's the current status | 17:34 |
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| Alexei_987 | I also have some problems that we can discuss | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 could you share with links to the patches? | 17:34 |
| Alexei_987 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60262/ | 17:35 |
| Alexei_987 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60797/ | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and what problem do you have? | 17:35 |
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| Alexei_987 | so the problem is: how and where do we store a profiler object on single service | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 could you explain? | 17:36 |
| Alexei_987 | this is kind of cross functionality that should be accessible from anywhere | 17:36 |
| Alexei_987 | but we should not bind it to singleton of any kind | 17:36 |
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| Alexei_987 | in openstack I didn't find a proper way of doing such a thing | 17:36 |
| Alexei_987 | it's somewhat common with logging system | 17:37 |
| Alexei_987 | but logger is created for each file separately | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 but why we are not able just to put Profiler class to oslo-incubator | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and copy paste it to all projects? | 17:37 |
| Alexei_987 | nah.. the code will lie in oslo | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and what is the problem? | 17:37 |
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| Alexei_987 | I mean when we create a profiler object: Profiler(service='nova') | 17:37 |
| Alexei_987 | where do we put it? | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | You should call it Profiler(service="oslo") and it will be replaced during sync to ("proect_name") | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ^ | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and this could be done in oslo code actually | 17:38 |
| Alexei_987 | hm the name? | 17:38 |
| Alexei_987 | or the object? | 17:39 |
| Alexei_987 | name ok.. | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 all can be stored there | 17:39 |
| Alexei_987 | ha ha | 17:39 |
| Alexei_987 | you should ask Roman Po.. | 17:39 |
| Alexei_987 | how much pain they have now cause of global config object | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 first of all they have another problmes | 17:39 |
| Alexei_987 | yes... | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 they would like to move the code in separated lib | 17:40 |
| Alexei_987 | but library should not create any active objects | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 that use another libs | 17:40 |
| Alexei_987 | that's why it's libraryt | 17:40 |
| Alexei_987 | library should only provide functionality | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 but actually we are going to patch with our lib another libs | 17:40 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 like oslo.log, oslo.messegin? | 17:41 |
| Alexei_987 | oslo.log - no | 17:41 |
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| Alexei_987 | messaging - maybe | 17:41 |
| Alexei_987 | but mostly it will be used on higher level code | 17:41 |
| Alexei_987 | such as controllers, etc. | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 so I don't see any problem to just take Profiler() code put it into oslo | 17:42 |
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| Alexei_987 | and I do :) | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 then sync a create locally in every code | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 project* | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and then use it for tracing | 17:42 |
| Alexei_987 | code yes | 17:42 |
| Alexei_987 | objects no | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and have 2 new config options (in oslo or projects) | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 you don't need to store any objects | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 what is the problem? | 17:43 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 I didn't have any problems with using DB code in all projects | 17:43 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and DB code is much more complex that this 50lines | 17:43 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 and have much more dependencies | 17:43 |
| Alexei_987 | there are some problems related to ENGINE being a singleton | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 Engine? | 17:44 |
| Alexei_987 | yes.. connection object | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 you are speaking now about DB? | 17:44 |
| Alexei_987 | (facepalm) | 17:44 |
| Alexei_987 | 1 sec | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 omg | 17:44 |
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| Alexei_987 | https://github.com/openstack/oslo-incubator/blob/master/openstack/common/db/sqlalchemy/session.py#L356 | 17:45 |
| Alexei_987 | ENGINE | 17:45 |
| Alexei_987 | global object | 17:45 |
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| Alexei_987 | cause of it we cannot implement slave reads properly | 17:45 |
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| Alexei_987 | anyway... | 17:46 |
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| Alexei_987 | so there is a problem in this object placement.. | 17:46 |
| Alexei_987 | and I suggest to move on for now | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 okay | 17:46 |
| Alexei_987 | so we don't waste all the time | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | #topic Deploy engines | 17:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deploy engines (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:47 | |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin hey can you share with your updates | 17:47 |
| eyerediskin | Fuel engine is coming soon. One or wo days | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin oh nice | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | eyerediskin I saw some changes are checking configs | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin around checking configs* | 17:48 |
| eyerediskin | yep, this is almost done | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin what is left? | 17:49 |
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| eyerediskin | config validation in providers. Maxim is working on it | 17:49 |
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| eyerediskin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60275/ | 17:50 |
| eyerediskin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60030/ | 17:50 |
| eyerediskin | some patches waiting for +2 =) | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | eyerediskin https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60030/ <- +2ed | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | eyerediskin and how about LXCEngine? | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin are you working around it, to make it work inside OS cloud? | 17:51 |
| eyerediskin | I gonna continue with it after fuel engine is done | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin okay nice | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | okay let's move to the next topic | 17:52 |
| eyerediskin | boris-42: I'got solution in my mind. Just need to code it | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin nice | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | #topic Rally as a Service | 17:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally as a Service (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:53 | |
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| boris-42 | We would like to add Web UI, and make it possible to work together with one Rally instances | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | So the right way is to make from Rally service | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | and make something like in nova and other projects | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | we will build REST with pecan | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | And make API + Managers (or master + workers) using oslo.messeging | 17:54 |
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| boris-42 | I don't think that these decisions requires discussion | 17:54 |
| Alexei_987 | we'll use the same async approach with eventlet and hookers? | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | But there is a discussion how to make it better | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ? | 17:55 |
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| Alexei_987 | nonblocking code and all the stuff like in nova | 17:55 |
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| Alexei_987 | in our service | 17:55 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 There will be API that just make plain operation (get data from DB) or stat task and make record in DB | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | And call managers that will actually run all other stuff | 17:56 |
| Alexei_987 | ok.. so no async code and no eventlet :) | 17:56 |
| Alexei_987 | cool | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 so we will use rpc.cast calls | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 for long operations | 17:56 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 so yep no eventlet shit | 17:57 |
| Alexei_987 | ok I got it | 17:57 |
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| boris-42 | And we actually started discussion | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | About how to make this possible inside Rally | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | and what changes we should make | 17:57 |
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| boris-42 | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/rally-service-arch | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | here is it ^ | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | it is just draft not ready so if everyone is interested it can help with advices | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | So okay | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | that is all | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | #topic free discussions | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "free discussions (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:58 | |
| boris-42 | So if somebody have any questions or something else just ask | 17:58 |
| eyerediskin | there is blueprint in devstack | 17:59 |
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| eyerediskin | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/devstack/+spec/devstack-rally | 17:59 |
| eyerediskin | meybe someone wants to implement it | 18:00 |
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| boris-42 | eyerediskin could you specify drafter, assignee and so on? | 18:00 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin and series | 18:00 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin I think that it will be nice to implement it | 18:00 |
| boris-42 | eyerediskin especially if we are going to make from Rally service | 18:01 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's finish this meeting | 18:01 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 18:01:53 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-10-17.06.html | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-10-17.06.txt | 18:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-10-17.06.log.html | 18:01 |
| henrynash | hi | 18:02 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 18:02 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:02 |
| shardy | o/ | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm_, ayoung, gyee, stevemar o/ | 18:02 |
| gyee | \o | 18:02 |
| dolphm_ | O/ | 18:02 |
| dolphm_ | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 18:02:43 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| tristanC | Hello guys! | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| ayoung | You rang! | 18:02 |
| dolphm_ | #topic keystone hackday! | 18:03 |
| fabiog | hi | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "keystone hackday! (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
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| dolphm_ | As mentioned a bit at the summit, I'd like to host a keystone hackday around the end of milestone 2 at Rackspace's office in San Antonio, TX. I put two options for dates on the agenda-- if you can attend and prefer one or the other, speak up! Otherwise I'm running with option 1 which end on the last Friday of milestone development | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | weee! | 18:03 |
| lbragstad | Hi | 18:03 |
| dolphm_ | Can someone past the options from the meeting agenda? | 18:03 |
| * gyee is looking forward to the two week mandatory Christmas vacation | 18:03 | |
| morganfainberg | Option 1: Wednesday-Thursday-Friday January 17-19th (ahead of the milestone) | 18:03 |
| dolphm_ | I'm trapped on my phone again :) | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | Option 2: Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday January 22-24th (around the milestone) | 18:03 |
| bknudson | isn't it chinese new year around then? | 18:04 |
| henrynash | either is fine by me | 18:04 |
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| dolphm_ | bkhudson: sure why not | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | I think ahead of the milestone is better | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | (option 1) | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | but that is just personal bias. | 18:04 |
| dstanek | i think i'd be find with either | 18:04 |
| gyee | I can bring chinese fire crackers to celebrate | 18:05 |
| dolphm_ | agree, and we wanted a Friday :) | 18:05 |
| ayoung | dolphm_, Gettin close on dates, we probably need to lock it down for airfare | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm_, ++ | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | gyee, Bringing fireworks to Texas is like bringing Coal to Newcastle | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | and letting employers know and all that. | 18:05 |
| dolphm_ | ayoung: I'd like to pick now for that reason | 18:06 |
| stevemar | i'll let topol know, not sure if he's here | 18:06 |
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| gyee | stevemar, just submit the expense report later | 18:07 |
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| stevemar | gyee, that's insanity | 18:07 |
| dolphm_ | gyee++ ask for forgiveness | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | dolphm_, so, I think we should agree that if we go with the later date, anything done during the hackfest is fair game for Icehouse, API freeze or no. Otherwise, it has to be the earlier one. | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm_, uhm... is my calendar wrong? but... 17-19 seems to be friday, saturday, sunday? | 18:07 |
| stevemar | oooo i like that, ayoung ++ | 18:08 |
| dolphm_ | ayoung: earlier one the | 18:08 |
| dolphm_ | n | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, you are right | 18:08 |
| dolphm_ | did I calendar bad? | 18:08 |
| stevemar | you did | 18:08 |
| dolphm_ | dammit | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | yep | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | When is I2? | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule | 18:09 |
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| gyee | 1/23 | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | Jan 23 | 18:09 |
| ayoung | https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/icehouse-2 | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | So 15-17 would be Wed-Fri before | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | i think the first one would need to be jan 15, 16, 17 (wed -> fri) | 18:10 |
| ayoung | and 20-22 | 18:10 |
| dolphm | alright so icehouse-m2 is the 23rd, which means branching on the 21st, which means Option 1 was supposed to be Jan 15-17 | 18:11 |
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| morganfainberg | and i like that one better because it gives us a (short) window to follow up on anything that comes out of it to hit i2 if needed | 18:11 |
| dolphm | i bet i was looking at 2012 or something | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | #agreed Keystone Hackday Icehouse January 15-17 @ San Antonio, TX | 18:12 |
| bknudson | 1218 miles for me... straight down i35 | 18:12 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: you've got 3 items on the agenda -- which do you want first ? | 18:12 |
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| bknudson | let's start at the beginning | 18:12 |
| bknudson | tempest change for assignments-doesn't-check-identity | 18:13 |
| dolphm | #topic Tempest change for assignments-doesn't-check-identity | 18:13 |
| bknudson | so I put the change in at henrynash 's request | 18:13 |
| bknudson | and then it failed tempest because they added a test that if you assign a role to a user doesn't exist then it fails | 18:13 |
| bknudson | so I added the tempest change but they didn't like it... wanted a blueprint | 18:13 |
| henrynash | bknudson: :-( | 18:13 |
| dolphm | #link assignments-doesn't-check-identity | 18:13 |
| dolphm | err | 18:14 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56106/ | 18:14 |
| bknudson | so I looked for blueprint and didn't see one that would be obvious to tempest | 18:14 |
| bknudson | I could use federation ... but I don't think that's obvious | 18:14 |
| bknudson | so how about a new blueprint? | 18:14 |
| bknudson | split-identity was also suggested, but that one is closed already | 18:15 |
| ayoung | bknudson, you should be able to create a role assignment for a bogus user and have it succeed. Then create the user in SQL and they get the roles when next they get a token | 18:15 |
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| bknudson | ayoung: that's what my fix does, and what the tempest tests don't allow | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/54647/ | 18:16 |
| gyee | with federation, you'd be insane to assign roles directly to users | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: new bp ++ | 18:17 |
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| bknudson | dolphm: ok, just wanted to make sure. | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | gyee: ++ not really possible at all | 18:17 |
| dstanek | bknudson: is you comment true that assigning to a non-existent use may return either a success or 404? | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | gyee, except that we are going to have to. There are no group mechanisms in Identity that we can count on, and we don't have user groups in Assignments | 18:18 |
| bknudson | dstanek: the identity spec doesn't says that it can return success, and the keystone server can also return 404 | 18:18 |
| dolphm | ayoung: mapping comes into play | 18:18 |
| gyee | always maps users to groups, that's the best way to manage changes | 18:19 |
| ayoung | bknudson, the split-identity blueprint should cover this behavior | 18:19 |
| ayoung | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/split-identity | 18:19 |
| gyee | your auditing will be that much easier | 18:19 |
| bknudson | ayoung: but the split-identity blueprint is complete ... would seem odd to re-open it? | 18:19 |
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| dstanek | bknudson: i can see why sdague doesn't like it - it really is multiple scenarios | 18:19 |
| dolphm | ayoung: re-opening released bp's is a no-no | 18:19 |
| ayoung | bknudson, hmmmm | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, ++, it still doesn't change the fact that you can't rely on identity to assign a role in all cases. you'd need to still assign without checking / not fail? | 18:20 |
| bknudson | Maybe I can make the new blueprint a continuation of split-identity. | 18:20 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: yeah, we can link them up | 18:20 |
| ayoung | could also be covered under federation if it is for future work | 18:20 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, you'll always assign roles to groups | 18:21 |
| ayoung | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/federation | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, yes. | 18:21 |
| bknudson | ayoung: the concern I have with using federation bp is that I don't think it's going to be obvious to tempest what the connection is. | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, make a new bp linked to federation? | 18:22 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:22 |
| bknudson | a new bp linked to federation would make it obvious, so I'm fine with that | 18:22 |
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| ayoung | I think all of the arrows are pointing the wrong way in the dependency graph https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/federation | 18:23 |
| ayoung | I'll take the action item to write the BP | 18:24 |
| gyee | ayoung, good observation | 18:24 |
| bknudson | ayoung: great, thanks | 18:24 |
| ayoung | bknudson, and then I'll assign to you? | 18:24 |
| bknudson | yep | 18:24 |
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| dolphm | #action syoung to write the bp | 18:24 |
| ayoung | dolphm, probably want more context in those #action lines.... | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | #topic REMOTE_USER auth v2 and v3 mismatch | 18:25 |
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| gyee | didn't we beat this horse to death already? | 18:26 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I think the latest patch is on track for REMOTE_USER | 18:26 |
| dolphm | A) we need to provide compat with grizzly throuhg master, which is currently broken | 18:26 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: good to hear | 18:26 |
| bknudson | so on this one... I think it would be great to have some doc that says what the plugins we want are. | 18:26 |
| ayoung | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/50362/ | 18:26 |
| bknudson | maybe I'm the only one who needs this to be more explicit so we can make sure we've got them all. | 18:26 |
| dolphm | bknudson: genreally thats the bp system :P | 18:26 |
| gyee | bknudson, ++ on good doc, that's the best we can do here | 18:26 |
| ayoung | bknudson, we need to old behavior, which turns all of REMOTE_USER into the user-id, and we need the Split on the @ sign for Kerberos | 18:27 |
| dolphm | use cases for each should be doc'd in bp's | 18:27 |
| bknudson | ok, I'll aim for a bp. | 18:27 |
| bknudson | that was it | 18:28 |
| dolphm | cool | 18:28 |
| dolphm | #topic Moving keystone tests to tempest | 18:28 |
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| bknudson | so, unfortunately I missed the summit session. | 18:28 |
| bknudson | but I had some time so I decided to get started on this. | 18:29 |
| bknudson | I thought the best way to go is to essentially copy keystone's client tests to tempest | 18:29 |
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| bknudson | because don't want to lose any coverage they're giving us | 18:29 |
| bknudson | so I posted 1 test for now, to see if tempest was ok with it | 18:30 |
| bknudson | but, I don't think they want our tests as they are... | 18:30 |
| ayoung | bknudson, the fixtures were always the weak link | 18:30 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: understandable | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | I put them in "scenarios", and they don't fit well with the other scenario tests. | 18:30 |
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| bknudson | now, shardy had made a new directory for client API tests | 18:30 |
| bknudson | but that change is -2 and abandoned at this point | 18:31 |
| shardy | bknudson: I spoke to sdague a while back, and IIRC he said put them under scenario | 18:31 |
| bknudson | so maybe tempest can be convinced to accept a new directory for client tests | 18:31 |
| ayoung | Do they have a standards document that they are saying we need to meet, or is it all Project norms at this point? | 18:31 |
| shardy | I think the separate tree was what caused all the upset ;) | 18:31 |
| dolphm | aren't we blocked on the patch that mordred mentioned on list? | 18:31 |
| ayoung | What is a "scenario" | 18:31 |
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| bknudson | shardy: the new trust tests would probably be an excellent candidate for a scenario test... | 18:32 |
| bknudson | could go through a whole scenario where get token, get trust, do something, delete trust, etc. | 18:32 |
| dolphm | ayoung: basically a configuration of openstack | 18:32 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i.e. stable/havana keystone running on SQL vs a year old release of keystoneclient | 18:32 |
| shardy | bknudson: Yeah, I've revived the API surface tests, and I'll revive those client trusts tess as scenario tests soon | 18:32 |
| bknudson | the API surface test is the one that I think tempest has more concern about | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dolphm, so all of the operations we would want to perform should be done in a scenario, and I assume separate smallish tests for each aspect of that are acceptable. | 18:33 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: that would indicate scenario is not a good fit | 18:33 |
| shardy | ayoung: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tempest/field_guide/scenario.html | 18:33 |
| shardy | #link http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tempest/field_guide/scenario.html | 18:33 |
| dolphm | i don't think this has been mentioned yet, but all of test_keystoneclient (and all the git checkout business) is basically testing v2.0, which we're also now deprecating... | 18:33 |
| ayoung | we fall more under this http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tempest/field_guide/cli.html | 18:34 |
| dstanek | shardy: excellent link thanks | 18:34 |
| bknudson | it might take us so long to get the tests to tempest that they'll be deprecated by then! | 18:34 |
| dolphm | so, maybe only focus on porting authentication tests (things testing /v2.0/tokens and /v2.0/tenants stuff) | 18:34 |
| ayoung | or this http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tempest/field_guide/api.html | 18:35 |
| ayoung | explicitly not scenario tests. Otherwise we are hiding what we are trying to do. | 18:35 |
| bknudson | tempest thinks that "api" is "REST API" | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, yes, we are scope creeping tempest here | 18:35 |
| ayoung | we have stated that all along | 18:35 |
| ayoung | but the client API is a contract that we need to be held to as much as the remote HTTP API | 18:36 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ today we're testing those in one suite for v2.0 ... we could break them apart into separate tests | 18:36 |
| * shardy has to go | 18:36 | |
| ayoung | shardy, thanks | 18:36 |
| bknudson | my latest request in my tempest patch was if we could get it in the python API tests that shardy proposed and is -2d | 18:37 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, lets follow the guidelines for the API tests, then | 18:37 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: ++, i think we should be arguing for a new folder for client tests | 18:37 |
| * dolphm shardy sponsored by Fiber One® Breakfast Cereal, Fiber Bars & Healthy Yogurt | 18:37 | |
| jamielennox | and encouraging other clients to do the same | 18:37 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, so that should probably be a Tempest Blueprint | 18:37 |
| bknudson | there is one for keystone... | 18:38 |
| jamielennox | ayoung: yea | 18:38 |
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| bknudson | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/keystoneclient-api | 18:38 |
| ayoung | but it sounds like Monty is cranking on just that already, wonder if he has a bp he is working from? | 18:38 |
| jamielennox | but at least reading through the field guide we'll be really struggling to get included in any of those groups | 18:38 |
| topol | o/ Showing up way late | 18:38 |
| dstanek | there seems to be a big gap between cli tests and api tests...does tempest already have a bp to address this? | 18:39 |
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| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/41931/ | 18:39 |
| dolphm | bug 939699 | 18:39 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 939699 in openstack-ci "client lib integration tests should hit multiple branches" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/939699 | 18:39 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: not sure about tempest and the blueprint but it doesn't surprise me, there has been an attitude that the CLI is the important part of a client | 18:39 |
| bknudson | I'm not sure I totally follow the link between what infra is doing and how that matches with what keystone's client tests are doing. | 18:40 |
| bknudson | but infra team seems to think it's "equivalent" | 18:40 |
| bknudson | or adequate, or more correct. | 18:40 |
| dolphm | bknudson: infra is most interested in matrix testing supported client and server versions | 18:40 |
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| bknudson | they also are the ones who are asking for it to be in tempest... | 18:41 |
| dolphm | bknudson: whether that's CLI or python lib, i don't think tempest really cares | 18:41 |
| * gyee sees business opportunity for OpenStack certification test suite :) | 18:41 | |
| ayoung | gyee, it will be called Tempest | 18:42 |
| gyee | oh damn | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | gyee: i'm pretty sure they are doing that | 18:42 |
| bknudson | gyee: I think the board or foundation is considering doing that... calling it "core" openstack | 18:42 |
| dolphm | gyee: you're a year late :P http://www.rackspace.com/blog/newsarticles/rackspace-launches-certification-program-for-openstack/ | 18:42 |
| jamielennox | can't remember what it is called | 18:42 |
| dolphm | oh, the TC wants to use tempest to certify clouds.. yeah | 18:42 |
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| bknudson | http://robhirschfeld.com/2013/07/22/kicking-off-core/ | 18:43 |
| gyee | excellent! | 18:43 |
| gyee | so yeah, client tests are the acid tests | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | gyee: http://refstack.org/ | 18:43 |
| bknudson | tempest is not doing much python API testing at this point... the scenario tests do use the python API | 18:44 |
| bknudson | (v2 for keystoneclient) | 18:44 |
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| bknudson | I haven't looked at the cli tests to know what they cover for keystoneclient | 18:44 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: that website needs some grammar help | 18:44 |
| dstanek | so what do we need to do about this - propose a blueprint for real client tests instead of the cli tests? | 18:44 |
| bknudson | I think we have a blueprint -- https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/keystoneclient-api | 18:45 |
| bknudson | again, thanks to shardy_afk ! | 18:45 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: i think so, but from the list and from those bugs we should coordinate with monty and see whether we can just piggyback that effort | 18:45 |
| bknudson | I'll try to engage the tempest team more and see if they agree with the bp. | 18:47 |
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| dstanek | just to summarize our goal - we want to test the matrix of all supported keystone client versions against all supported keystone server versions...is that right? | 18:47 |
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| dolphm | dstanek: yes | 18:47 |
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| bknudson | the supported keystone client versions are apparently 0.1.1, essex-3, and master | 18:47 |
| dstanek | bknudson: if you can keep me in the loop here because i am heavily interested in this topic | 18:47 |
| topol | bknudson how did you determine that? | 18:48 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's debatable | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: i don't think that is really the case | 18:48 |
| dolphm | topol: that's what we have in test_keystoneclient | 18:48 |
| dolphm | but we should really have 0.2.x tests, 0.3.x tests, and now 0.4.x tests | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: i'd like to see 0.2.2, 0.3.x and an 0.4.0 | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | + master | 18:48 |
| dolphm | and master | 18:48 |
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| bknudson | I could make that change to test_keystoneclient first. | 18:49 |
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| bknudson | (or somebody else could) | 18:49 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: there's already a patch in review to drop essex-3 | 18:49 |
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| jamielennox | anyone know what was special about 0.1.1? | 18:50 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: it was released | 18:50 |
| gyee | :) | 18:50 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i can change test_keystoneclient | 18:50 |
| bknudson | dstanek: thanks! | 18:50 |
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| bknudson | I'm guessing everything since 0.1.1 was put into the "master" testcase | 18:50 |
| bknudson | so it will require some work to figure out where each test works | 18:51 |
| bknudson | maybe just throw them all into compat and skip them | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: is it worth fixing test_keystoneclient? why don't we just start again in tempest, and do it how they want it | 18:51 |
| dolphm | bknudson: well, you'll see them fail, and we can review the skips in gerrit to make sure they're legit | 18:51 |
| dolphm | err, intended | 18:52 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: this bit of work has to be done either way | 18:52 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: coverage can be ported piece by piece once we have something organized enough to port | 18:52 |
| bknudson | I think it will be easier and better to get our own house in order before having to go through a different set of reviewers | 18:52 |
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| dstanek | what i had a hard time grokking in tempest was how it would run using different client versions and not pulling them from git | 18:53 |
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| bknudson | dstanek: I don't know how that's going to happen either... that was my comment earlier about not seeing the link. | 18:53 |
| bknudson | can the tests in tempest know what version of keystoneclient they're using and skip tests? | 18:54 |
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| gyee | dstanek, how does grenade test upgrades? | 18:54 |
| * dolphm 5 minutesish | 18:54 | |
| bknudson | (also, maybe that's a better way to write the client tests in keystone | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: wouldn't mind a quick chat on backwards compat in client | 18:55 |
| dstanek | bknudson: maybe we just need to have a quick chat with some tempest folks to really hash out what we are trying to do | 18:55 |
| bknudson | gyee: I started looking at grenade but didn't have enough time to figure it out. | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | i put up a auth plugin WIP https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60751 | 18:55 |
| gyee | jamielennox, good stuff | 18:55 |
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| bknudson | dstanek: I assume they have a meeting like ours | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | is it appropriate to say if you pass a session object to a client then you are using the *new way* and that you should not expect the previous behaviours to apply? | 18:55 |
| dstanek | gyee: grenade test upgrades? | 18:55 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: yes | 18:55 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: that's backwards-compatible | 18:55 |
| gyee | dstanek, that's my understanding | 18:55 |
| ayoung | 5 minutes left | 18:55 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: it turns testing into a bit of a mess | 18:56 |
| dstanek | bknudson: would it be https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting? | 18:56 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: you could also just have a new constructor | 18:56 |
| gyee | I would like to re-introduce pagination if y'all don't mind | 18:56 |
| bknudson | ok, I think we've got a TODO for dstanek and I to talk to tempest and try to make progress. | 18:56 |
| gyee | pagination never got killed and we need it | 18:56 |
| dolphm | gyee: i didn't follow up on the pagination discussion at the summit, other than knowing everyone went into it despising pagination | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: ie don't use v3.client.Client ? | 18:57 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: right | 18:57 |
| bknudson | dstanek: we'll have no idea when they meet because they have different times depending on the week! | 18:57 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: that's why I was suggesting keystoneclient.Client() | 18:57 |
| gyee | dolphm, that session didn't happen and we need some pagination | 18:57 |
| gyee | I would like to re-introduce the ones we had originally | 18:57 |
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| gyee | page,per_page as the minimum | 18:57 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: i've been hoping to make keystoneclient.Client() the discoverable entry point | 18:57 |
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| dolphm | gyee: we talked about supporting hard limits in conf... is that all you want? | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: but as that is a new feature as well maybe it can be rolled into one | 18:58 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ | 18:58 |
| gyee | dolphm, not so much about implementation, we need to get it back onto the API spec first | 18:58 |
| dolphm | gyee: the configuration approach does not impact API | 18:58 |
| gyee | we removed them from the spec | 18:58 |
| dolphm | gyee: the spec still supports paginated links -- we're just not using them | 18:59 |
| gyee | I mean page and per_page is not on the API spec currently | 18:59 |
| gyee | dolphm, as list filters | 18:59 |
| bknudson | I think I removed them from the spec because they weren't implemented | 18:59 |
| gyee | i.e. GET /v3/projects?page=5 | 18:59 |
| bknudson | and I didn't see them being implemented | 18:59 |
| gyee | bknudson, it is implemented in common controller | 18:59 |
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| dolphm | gyee: hardly | 18:59 |
| bknudson | the implementation in common controller was "return" | 19:00 |
| gyee | dolphm, I can finish up the implementation | 19:00 |
| gyee | the bare minimum | 19:00 |
| dolphm | gyee: we can talk about hard limits in conf first, which was the actual deployer ask | 19:00 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** dolphm is now known as dolphm_ | 19:00 | |
| dolphm_ | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 19:00:52 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| ayoung | dolphm, any idea on how much lodging will run in San Antonio? | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-10-18.02.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-10-18.02.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-10-18.02.log.html | 19:00 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: my next step is to find out if i can get ya'll discounts | 19:01 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | heyo | 19:02 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, at 1 Fanatical Pl, Windcrest, TX right | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | mordred, hub_cap, pleia2, SergeyLukjanov: ping | 19:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 19:02:59 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| lifeless | o/ | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-03-19.02.html | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| jeblair | #action jeblair file bug about cleaning up gerrit-trigger-plugin | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair move tarballs.o.o and include 50gb space for heat/trove images | 19:04 |
| jeblair | fungi: do you think it's safe for me to do that ^ now? | 19:04 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | whisper: and for savanna images too, please | 19:04 |
| fungi | mmm, well we have space on logs and on docs-draft | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:04 |
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| fungi | and the /srv/static partition itself is 100g mostly empty | 19:05 |
| jeblair | fungi: i'd probably make a 200g volume for it | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | fungi: current real tarball usage is 30g | 19:05 |
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| fungi | but no available extents in the vg, and no ability to add any more cinder volumes (we ended up needing 10tib to get the two volumes to 50% freeish) | 19:05 |
| fungi | unless we request a quota bump | 19:06 |
| jeblair | fungi: okay, so we need to ask rackspace for a quota increase | 19:06 |
| fungi | i can open a case asking about it | 19:06 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:06 |
| mordred | we could add a second server | 19:06 |
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| anteaya | o/ | 19:06 |
| mordred | that has volumes onto which we publish build artifacts | 19:06 |
| fungi | mordred: well, the 10tib quota limit is tenant-wide according to their faq | 19:06 |
| mordred | oh. ok | 19:06 |
| mordred | I grok now - nevermind | 19:06 |
| jeblair | mordred: but we may also need to do that. | 19:06 |
| mordred | I was somehow thinking it was how many we can attach to one thing | 19:07 |
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| fungi | #action fungi ask rackspace for cinder quota increase | 19:07 |
| clarkb | right beacuse there is a 16 device limit as well | 19:07 |
| jeblair | mordred: if the 10tib limit is increased, we'll be able to put 14tib on one server | 19:07 |
| fungi | yep | 19:07 |
| mordred | k | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | fungi grow logs and docs-draft volumes so they're 50% full | 19:07 |
| fungi | #link http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=717&rra_id=all | 19:08 |
| fungi | #link http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=718&rra_id=all | 19:08 |
| jeblair | ^ i think we just covered that; anything else, fungi ? | 19:08 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/46099/ | 19:08 |
| fungi | (the doc update associated with it) | 19:08 |
| jeblair | fungi: that link isn't right | 19:08 |
| fungi | gah | 19:08 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59615/ | 19:09 |
| clarkb | though there is an interesting discussion under 46099 :) | 19:09 |
| fungi | as for the graphs, nothing exciting, just don't look too closely at where i accidentally stuck the extra space on docs-draft at first and had to rsync the contents over and back during the course of the weekend | 19:09 |
| fungi | clarkb: yeah, the comments at the end of 46099 are part of my to do list for today, which is why the mispaste | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | cool. the rest of the action items will fall into other topics | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:11 | |
| jeblair | mordred to harrass hub_cap until he's writen the tempest patches | 19:11 |
| fungi | though in the rsync'ing, i learned that the jenkins scp publisher will annihilate any symlinks it finds in the destination path | 19:11 |
| jeblair | mordred: ^ how's the harrassing going? | 19:12 |
| mordred | jeblair: I believe he started doing that? | 19:12 |
| mordred | hub_cap: ^^ ? | 19:12 |
| hub_cap | hey | 19:12 |
| hub_cap | i havent been harassed enough | 19:13 |
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| hub_cap | although i think that slicknik is going ot start some of the work. hes getting our dib elements out of trove-integration | 19:13 |
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| hub_cap | so i suspect he will begin taking my place for this stuff | 19:13 |
| mordred | ok. I'll harrass him then | 19:13 |
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| mordred | I thought you started work on it? or was that just savana? | 19:14 |
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| hub_cap | i didnt get anything tangible done | 19:14 |
| hub_cap | ill be working w/ him on it so ill be sure to pass on what i have | 19:14 |
| anteaya | I seem to excel at harrassing for tempest, did you want me to add that to my list? | 19:15 |
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| anteaya | why should I just bug neutron? | 19:15 |
| hub_cap | oh and we have someone from mirantis working on actual tempest tests too | 19:15 |
| hub_cap | anteaya: hehe sure :) | 19:15 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | hub_cap, are there any work started on automating image building? | 19:15 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and publishing them to tarballs.o.o? | 19:15 |
| hub_cap | hey SergeyLukjanov ive passed the buck to slicknik | 19:16 |
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| hub_cap | hes moving our dib elements and then i suspect he will work on that | 19:16 |
| SergeyLukjanov | hub_cap, hey :) ok, I'll ping him to sync our efforts | 19:16 |
| SergeyLukjanov | hub_cap, thx | 19:16 |
| devananda | hub_cap: who @ mirantis? | 19:16 |
| devananda | hub_cap: two folks there also working on ironic/tempest too | 19:17 |
| jeblair | hub_cap: do you expect this to be done by icehouse-2? | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | devananda: i cannot remember his name, he just started | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | jeblair: its currently targeted for i2 | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | devananda: he just started working w/ us, ill find out his name and ping u | 19:17 |
| * mordred loves piles of russians | 19:18 | |
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| anteaya | would it be worthwhile to have a gathering of folks working on tempest tests from various projects | 19:18 |
| anteaya | y'know to compare notes | 19:18 |
| clarkb | anteaya: maybe push them to the qa channel and open up dialogue? I am not really sure how much of this is happening outside of bubbles | 19:19 |
| devananda | i think it would benefit us if the mirantis folks who are starting to work on ironic/tempest tests to talk/meet with infra folks | 19:19 |
| devananda | and have been pushing them that way | 19:19 |
| anteaya | right, fairly bubbly right now | 19:19 |
| hub_cap | clarkb: the rainbows are pretty inside our bubbles though | 19:19 |
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| anteaya | I'll host a meeting and post to the ml | 19:20 |
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| anteaya | and hope lots of interested folks show up | 19:20 |
| anteaya | how's that? | 19:20 |
| clarkb | wfm, though in general I think people just need to learn to lurk in the right places :) | 19:20 |
| anteaya | yes | 19:20 |
| anteaya | hard to keep up on all the backscroll though | 19:20 |
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| anteaya | I'm having a hard time | 19:21 |
| anteaya | anyway | 19:21 |
| jeblair | you don't have to read all the backscroll | 19:21 |
| zaro | clean slate for me everyday.. | 19:21 |
| pleia2 | zaro: hehe | 19:21 |
| jeblair | anteaya: before you host a meeting about tempest; you might want to talk to sdague. | 19:21 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:21 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yes, good point | 19:22 |
| jeblair | anyway, this is off-topic. | 19:22 |
| anteaya | will do so | 19:22 |
| jeblair | #topic Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) | 19:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:22 | |
| lifeless | hi, perfect timing, we're going to collide :) | 19:22 |
| lifeless | one sec | 19:22 |
| pleia2 | hah | 19:22 |
| fungi | any way to temporarily merge two channels? ;) | 19:22 |
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| clarkb | fungi: we could have a bot mirror discussion | 19:23 |
| fungi | indeed | 19:23 |
| clarkb | I am sure that is a terrible idea | 19:23 |
| lifeless | ok so | 19:23 |
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| lifeless | pleia2: you should talk ;) | 19:23 |
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| pleia2 | so I've been cleaning up some tripleo scripts so they can be used in the more automated CI stuff | 19:23 |
| pleia2 | it's also led to some changes in devstack.sh so we can properly support the testing infrastructure (and of course this makes sense in general too) | 19:24 |
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| pleia2 | derekh and dprince have been working on gearman setup and lifeless has been tackling some of the gnarly network bits | 19:24 |
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| lifeless | yah, the network config is validated now, we know it will work | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | progress is still being tracked on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-test-cluster | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | I think derekh and dprince will need an infra chat in the near future | 19:25 |
| * dprince can't wait | 19:26 | |
| dprince | :) | 19:26 |
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| pleia2 | dprince: want to pencil something in with jeblair this week? thinking an asterisk call | 19:26 |
| jeblair | what's the topic? | 19:26 |
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| dprince | pleia2/jeblair: we can but derekh will definately want to be on this one too | 19:27 |
| lifeless | o/ | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | dprince: you can fill in jeblair of specifics better than I | 19:27 |
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| dprince | jeblair: topic would be 'TripleO CI: where the rubber meets the road' | 19:28 |
| dprince | jeblair: hows that sound? | 19:28 |
| pleia2 | I think he means specifically what we need from infra :) | 19:28 |
| mordred | I love rubber and roads | 19:28 |
| pleia2 | mordred: no you don't, you're always in airplanes | 19:28 |
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| clarkb | pleia2: dprince: right, what exactly do we plan on going over | 19:29 |
| lifeless | I don't think a call it needed | 19:29 |
| lifeless | we have very clear guidance from infra about the contract and interactions, and we aren't ready to move from experimental to check yet. | 19:29 |
| mordred | pleia2: doesn't mean I don't love them | 19:29 |
| pleia2 | mordred :) | 19:29 |
| dprince | yeah, I'm not sure it is 100% needed either but it wouldn't hurt to get everyone on the same page | 19:29 |
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| dprince | but we can probably punt on it for this week at least | 19:30 |
| jeblair | dprince, pleia2: is there anything infra-related that's blocking your work? | 19:30 |
| lifeless | dprince: I think we are: jeblair has been through the design and code reviewed the broker, for instance. | 19:30 |
| jeblair | dprince, pleia2: and do you expect to be making infra changes soon related to it? | 19:30 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: no blockers yet | 19:30 |
| dprince | jeblair: on the HP tripleO side no. On the RedHat TripleO side maybe. But it is still premature to go there I think. | 19:31 |
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| * dprince aludes to his problem with getting IPv4 addresses for a TripleO testing rack | 19:31 | |
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| clarkb | I don't think we need IPv4 | 19:32 |
| jeblair | clarkb: does hpcloud support v6? | 19:32 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: no, but hpcloud is only running slaves | 19:32 |
| mordred | jeblair: the tripleo rack has v6 | 19:32 |
| lifeless | the infra control plane is dual stack; for tripleo regions we specify that either we need a /25 or we need IPv6 | 19:32 |
| fungi | might be interesting to find out what sorts of breakage we hit with ipv6-only slaves | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | dprince: can you get v4 for the infra control plane? | 19:33 |
| dprince | jeblair: I haven't got a hard number yet. Maybe. | 19:33 |
| lifeless | jeblair: what's the 'infra control plane' in a slave only cloud ? | 19:33 |
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| fungi | i would be slightly more comfortable with the ipv6-only idea if rackspace didn't have known brokenness with ipv6 in some ways (particularly dscp marking for low latency communications) | 19:34 |
| lifeless | jeblair: if there is infra work needed to support a v6 slave only region, as long as its reasonably modest, I think TripleO will be happy to step up and do it. | 19:34 |
| jeblair | lifeless: i assumed you meant the part of the system that talks to infra tools; | 19:34 |
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| lifeless | jeblair: I meant zuul and nodepool which AIUI run in rackspace | 19:34 |
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| lifeless | jeblair: we specifically will not have enough ipv4 in many regions to use one ipv4 address per jenkins slave | 19:35 |
| lifeless | jeblair: some proposed regions - like MS - have already told use they simply cannot do IPv4 at all. | 19:35 |
| lifeless | jeblair: so, I'd like to frame this as - what work do we need to do to enable ipv6 only slave clouds | 19:35 |
| jeblair | lifeless: okay, then yes, zuul, nodepool, gear, gearman-plugin will all need to be made to be dual-stack | 19:35 |
| lifeless | if you can point us at the work, we can make sure its in our plan to do it | 19:36 |
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| lifeless | jeblair: should we take this offline to do details? | 19:37 |
| jeblair | it's possible some of those may already be; but they are all untested with v6 | 19:37 |
| lifeless | that was the bit I was missing | 19:37 |
| jeblair | nodepool will definitely need some work, but it's moderate | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | gear may need a small amount or none but is untested | 19:37 |
| jeblair | unsure about gearman-plugin and its java gearman dependency | 19:38 |
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| lifeless | dprince: / pleia2: Can one of you capture the list zuul, nodepool, gear, gearman-plugin and the status jeblair is uttering now into a new etherpad? Called 'ipv6-infra-test-clouds' or something ? | 19:38 |
| mordred | lifeless, jeblair do they need gearman-plugin to be ipv6? | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | lifeless: on it | 19:39 |
| jeblair | zuul may not be an issue. | 19:39 |
| lifeless | you need anything that talks to jenkins slaves or to the API endpoint | 19:39 |
| mordred | kk. | 19:39 |
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| dprince | lifeless: sure | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ipv6-infra-test-clouds | 19:39 |
| dprince | pleia2: thanks | 19:39 |
| jeblair | the job runners are jenkins slaves, right? (they talk to the broker to then farm out the work) | 19:40 |
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| jeblair | iirc, the jenkins slaves are spun up as normal by nodepool from an openstack vm cloud | 19:41 |
| jeblair | mordred: so i think that's why ^ | 19:41 |
| pleia2 | right | 19:41 |
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| mordred | riht. but then they're not running gearman plugin - they just need ipv6 on the ssh connection from jenkins and from nodepool to their cloud - gearman to jenkins stays in our cloud | 19:42 |
| jeblair | lifeless: i will be happy to see v6-enabling work happen on these. i would personally love everything we do to be on v6 | 19:42 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:42 |
| fungi | hear hear | 19:42 |
| jeblair | mordred: good point, zuul only talks to the gearman master | 19:43 |
| lifeless | jeblair: they are, they are already defined in nodepool infact | 19:43 |
| jeblair | mordred: good point, zuul only talks to the jenkins master | 19:43 |
| lifeless | jeblair: we're using the term tripleo-gate for them, a-la devstack-gate | 19:43 |
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| jeblair | mordred, lifeless: if the jenkins master can use a v4 address, then you don't need to worry about gearman-plugin. if the jenkins master is v6 only, then it does need to be considered. | 19:44 |
| jeblair | and i suppose we are running the jenkins master. :) | 19:44 |
| lifeless | you're running the master | 19:45 |
| jeblair | mordred: so yes, i think we can strike gearman-plugin from that list. | 19:45 |
| lifeless | the interface is exactly the same as for d-g | 19:45 |
| lifeless | nodepool makes a node, hands it to jenkins, jenkins ssh's to it | 19:45 |
| lifeless | so I would expect the list to be nodepool and jenkins | 19:45 |
| lifeless | does gear talk directly to slaves? | 19:46 |
| jeblair | lifeless: no, gear interactions are only zuul <-> jenkins master | 19:46 |
| lifeless | ok | 19:46 |
| lifeless | so , I tink we we need to timebox this | 19:46 |
| fungi | jeblair: though does that change with jenkinsless slaves? | 19:46 |
| lifeless | otherwise both meetings will run out of steam | 19:47 |
| jeblair | lifeless: i updated the etherpad. | 19:47 |
| mordred | then it would just need turbohipster to be able to do v6 | 19:47 |
| lifeless | lets pick up ipv6 discussion in a couple of weeks | 19:47 |
| jeblair | lifeless: sounds good, thanks | 19:47 |
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| fungi | great planning progress tho | 19:47 |
| lifeless | it's not front line yet - the RH region will be the second one to come online, and the HP does have ipv4. | 19:47 |
| jeblair | fungi: yes, in the future, non-jenkins slaves will talk directly to gearman, but they'll do it with gear, so presumably the problem will be solved by then. | 19:48 |
| jeblair | (talk directly to zuul's gearman server) | 19:48 |
| jeblair | this is why we have these meetings. :) | 19:49 |
| jeblair | #topic Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) | 19:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:49 | |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: how's it going? | 19:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I've finalized savanna-devstack integration to be able to use it in d-g jobs last week | 19:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and create some small patches for tempest to make simple savanna api tests | 19:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | here are the CRs for it - https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:savanna-tempest,n,z | 19:50 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | the next step will be impl api tests for all resources | 19:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and then to start moving integration tests | 19:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | from savanna repo to tempest scenarios | 19:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and we'll need to build/publish images for it | 19:51 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | there are no blockers atm | 19:51 |
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| jeblair | cool! | 19:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | that's about enabling savanna d-g jobs for exp pipeline in tempest | 19:52 |
| jeblair | zaro: what's the most urgent thing you want to discuss? | 19:52 |
| SergeyLukjanov | for testing patches | 19:52 |
| zaro | upgrade gerrit i guess | 19:52 |
| jeblair | #topic Upgrade gerrit (zaro) | 19:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Upgrade gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:52 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61125/ | 19:52 |
| zaro | fungi ran a manually upgrade of review-dev from 2.4.x to 2.8. | 19:52 |
| fungi | well, it's still in progress there | 19:53 |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: i should be able to review that today | 19:53 |
| zaro | There was an error during the db schema conversion which is probably a bug in gerrit that isn't handling some badness in the db correctly #link http://paste.openstack.org/show/54743 | 19:53 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, great, thank you! | 19:53 |
| zaro | We will need to debug further. | 19:53 |
| zaro | It will take a little effort to debug because i would need to setup mysql and get the review-dev site and db dump from fungi. | 19:53 |
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| zaro | I suggested that in parallel to debugging the problem we should manually run a quick upgrade test against review to see if we get any errors. | 19:53 |
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| zaro | I think we'll need to do that anyway. | 19:54 |
| fungi | if there is a pressing need to have review-dev back on 2.4.x in the interim, we can revert the upgrade (warfile url change) and i can restore the db from teh backup i've been using | 19:54 |
| jeblair | zaro, fungi: keep in mind we had horrible id sync scripts running on both servers | 19:54 |
| jeblair | zaro, fungi: some cleanup happened to the prod db that may not have happened to the dev one | 19:54 |
| mordred | good call. I think testing a review db dump before upgrading is important | 19:54 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:54 |
| fungi | jeblair: yes, dupes there spring to mind as one possibility | 19:54 |
| jeblair | zaro, fungi: so, yeah, testing db dumps from both servers sounds like a very good idea | 19:54 |
| fungi | i think there will be multiple tests of each before we're satisfied | 19:55 |
| jeblair | zaro, fungi: and also, it's possible we can fix this with further db cleanup. | 19:55 |
| clarkb | I think we should also convert the tables to utf8 in this process or at least test the conversion | 19:55 |
| jeblair | zaro, fungi: (just something to keep in mind) | 19:55 |
| clarkb | since we will have to setup all the machinery anyways | 19:55 |
| zaro | jeblair: good idea. db cleanup. | 19:55 |
| clarkb | https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ci/+bug/979227 is the bug tracking that problem | 19:55 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 979227 in openstack-ci "convert gerrit's mysql tables to utf8" [Medium,Triaged] | 19:55 |
| zaro | ok, nothing else about gerrit upgrade atm. | 19:56 |
| mordred | I support the upgrade | 19:56 |
| fungi | i'd like to discuss potentially getting zaro's ssh key added to review-dev so i don't have to worry about getting db exports and file archives to him out of band | 19:56 |
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| zaro | fungi: what? i like the personal touch. | 19:56 |
| fungi | zaro: yeah, i know. i have that way with people | 19:57 |
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| * zaro nods | 19:57 | |
| jeblair | fungi: it looks like review-dev has completely segregated credentials (ie, not the same as review) | 19:57 |
| * mordred is now left with the words fungi zaro and personal touch | 19:57 | |
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| * fungi nods | 19:57 | |
| clarkb | jeblair: I think that is true since it replicates to a different github org | 19:57 |
| jeblair | fungi: given that, i am in favor. | 19:57 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:57 |
| clarkb | me too | 19:57 |
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| fungi | okay, zaro we'll get that taken care of to help speed this along | 19:58 |
| zaro | cool | 19:58 |
| jeblair | zaro: propose a change to infra/config to add your key and add it to the review-dev server, and make sure you read and agree to http://ci.openstack.org/sysadmin.html#ssh-access | 19:59 |
| zaro | will do. | 19:59 |
| jeblair | that's it; thanks everyone. we'll get to other topics next week. | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 20:00:04 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-10-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-10-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-10-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | OK... who is around for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| devananda | \o | 20:00 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:00 |
| annegentle | holla | 20:00 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:00 |
| jraim | I'm here for Barbican if needed | 20:00 |
| ttx | russellb, markmc, mikal, jgriffith, markmcclain, jeblair, lifeless, sdague, dhellmann : around ? | 20:00 |
| markmc | hey | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| lifeless | heyo | 20:00 |
| ttx | jraim: thanks for being here, i'm sure there will be questions | 20:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Thats's 7+, we can proceed | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 20:01:23 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
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| ttx | #topic Assert control over website and memberdata systems | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Assert control over website and memberdata systems (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58072/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | mordred: did you post a thread about that anywhere, yet ? | 20:02 |
| ttx | I guess we can still discuss it... | 20:02 |
| sdague | mikal raises a good point that there hasn't been a recent thread on that | 20:02 |
| mordred | ttx: I did not. | 20:02 |
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| ttx | sdague: that prevents us from closing the vote, but not from having a discussion about it | 20:02 |
| sdague | ttx: I got in a twitter fight about it, but I don't think that counts :) | 20:02 |
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| annegentle | mordred: is there discussion elsewhere? heh sdague oh I'll look for that one then | 20:03 |
| mordred | sdague: :) | 20:03 |
| ttx | mordred: care to summarize the issue ? | 20:03 |
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| mordred | the issues is - the website and the membership system are run by thefoundation and not part of infra at all | 20:03 |
| mordred | that means that there are, effectively, project resources which are not under our technical governance | 20:03 |
| mordred | which I think is unacceptable | 20:04 |
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| jbryce | mordred: there is a distinction between project resources and foundation resources | 20:04 |
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| mordred | jbryce: is the foundation membership system required to check in code? | 20:04 |
| jbryce | mordred: and they actually have different requirements that come into play | 20:04 |
| mordred | jbryce: because if it is, it should be under the governance of the project | 20:05 |
| lifeless | jbryce: is there? When I read the charter as a result of that motion being put up, I didn't see one. | 20:05 |
| jbryce | mordred: if that's the biggest issue maybe we could get some help on the review to get the id system moved into infra | 20:05 |
| jbryce | mordred: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/53644/18 | 20:05 |
| mordred | jbryce: we're going to be on that right after this :) | 20:05 |
| lifeless | jbryce: the foundation is the seat of everything, and then the subsection labelled 'technical' is carved off, lock stock and barrel. | 20:05 |
| jeblair | jbryce: that change is merged. and it had SO MUCH HELP. | 20:05 |
| mordred | jbryce: the other thing is - the source code that runs the website, and I don't mean the content in the website | 20:05 |
| jeblair | jbryce: i would call that a triumph of community development process. :) | 20:05 |
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| mordred | should be open source and in infra | 20:06 |
| jeblair | jbryce: i think everything should be run that way | 20:06 |
| jbryce | jeblair: run which way? | 20:06 |
| mordred | we have one of the best dev systems in the world, that is one of the most openly collaborative | 20:06 |
| mordred | we should use it for development | 20:06 |
| ttx | mordred: while I think it would be better if it was open source and under infra, I don't think anything forces them to be | 20:06 |
| jeblair | jbryce: the direction the id system is heading. | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:07 |
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| mordred | ttx: 'technical governance of the project' - I'm pretty sure that source code running the project's website meets that definition | 20:07 |
| mordred | unless we're saying that the website is the website of the foudation | 20:07 |
| jeblair | ttx: i agree with mordred's reading of the bylaws | 20:08 |
| lifeless | how is the foundation distinct from the project? | 20:08 |
| jbryce | mordred: there is actually utility for both the project and the foundation in having some distinction between the resources | 20:08 |
| ttx | mordred: I think that's jbryce's argument ("foundation website") | 20:08 |
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| jeblair | jbryce: is openstack.org not the web site for the openstack project? | 20:08 |
| * russellb has a hard time understanding why anyone would *not* want infra running all this stuff | 20:08 | |
| mordred | russellb: ++ | 20:08 |
| ttx | mordred: anyway, i would rather have those resources voluntarily placed under infra/TC than being forced to | 20:09 |
| mordred | ttx: I would to | 20:09 |
| mordred | too | 20:09 |
| jbryce | russellb: it's not that we don't want it running in one way or another | 20:09 |
| jeblair | ttx: me too, and i thought we had come to an agreement about that > 1 year ago | 20:09 |
| sdague | russellb: yeh, that's the camp I'm in as well | 20:09 |
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| mordred | also, I'd like it if the website wasn't running on a proprietary system, but instead ran on openstack | 20:09 |
| mordred | BUT | 20:09 |
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| jbryce | the teams working on it have been moving that direction over time | 20:09 |
| mordred | I'm willing to defer even talking about that | 20:09 |
| jbryce | and the id portion is a very big piece of the member system that they are attempting to split out completely in the new model | 20:10 |
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| jbryce | running in infra and through gerrit from the get go | 20:10 |
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| russellb | awesome | 20:10 |
| mordred | that's awesome, honestly. | 20:10 |
| ttx | jbryce: ignoring what the bylaws may or may not say on the topic, would you agree that those should be placed under infra program ? | 20:10 |
| mordred | I just don't understand why the existing git repos can't be moved | 20:10 |
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| markmc | if we can agree that moving this stuff under infra would be good for its own sake | 20:11 |
| markmc | then it would be awesome to avoid a bylaws debate :) | 20:11 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:11 |
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| ttx | I'd rather not have the TC asserting its understanding of the bylaws tp force the hand of anyone | 20:11 |
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| ttx | to* | 20:11 |
| ttx | and have people voluntarily converge | 20:12 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think that would be swell | 20:12 |
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| ttx | so is it a problem of the migration not going fast enough, or the idea of migration being completely refused ? | 20:12 |
| jbryce | ttx: that's what i was just going to ask | 20:13 |
| mordred | I'd say it's going so slow as to amount to being politely refused | 20:13 |
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| mordred | it's been a year since we started discussing it | 20:13 |
| mordred | moving a git repo without making any other changes at all to deployment | 20:13 |
| * ttx feels like an arbitrator now | 20:13 | |
| mordred | takes about 30 minutes | 20:13 |
| mordred | if that happened, then sdague could submit a patch when he notices a problem with the profile page, and everyone is happy | 20:14 |
| lifeless | here's what I'd like | 20:14 |
| ttx | jbryce: do you agree with the idea of a migration ? and if yes do you think it could happen faster ? | 20:14 |
| mordred | I ask - because people ask us when stuff goes wrong, because they assume we run it | 20:14 |
| lifeless | if there is consensus that the operation should all be moving to -infra | 20:15 |
| sdague | I also think things came to a head when openstack.org had a big outage last month | 20:15 |
| mordred | yup | 20:15 |
| mordred | more than one | 20:15 |
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| sdague | and people streamed into -infra asking what was up | 20:15 |
| ttx | lifeless: that's what we must first establish | 20:15 |
| lifeless | then I'd like there to be - asap - like by next week - a set of bugs in -infra, which when all closed, will mean that all the ops is in -infra | 20:15 |
| mordred | and people pinged us immediately | 20:15 |
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| lifeless | I don't think we need to talk -at all- about the mechanics of moving | 20:15 |
| mordred | lifeless: agree | 20:15 |
| lifeless | as long as there is consensus that we should, and a public list of what work - so we can see it being burnt down. | 20:15 |
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| jgriffith | sdague: sorry... wrong number | 20:16 |
| jgriffith | sdague: just sayin | 20:16 |
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| lifeless | ttx: I bring this up because the discussion is getting into implementation. | 20:16 |
| jgriffith | sdague: people "ask infra" is not a good reason IMO | 20:16 |
| jbryce | ttx: in general terms yes, but again there are many additional restrictions on foundation resources than on the project resources | 20:16 |
| lifeless | ttx: and since mordred has agreed, we can now focus back on the broad consensus question | 20:16 |
| lifeless | jbryce: can you clarify what that even means? | 20:16 |
| mordred | jbryce: like what, if I may ask? | 20:16 |
| russellb | jbryce: can you elaborate a little? | 20:17 |
| russellb | heh | 20:17 |
| mordred | jinx | 20:17 |
| lifeless | jbryce: because I don't understand the distinction you're drawing; the technical subpart of the project is in the bylaws | 20:17 |
| * markmc had same typed too :) | 20:17 | |
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| jbryce | the website/member system/foundation database are basically all in a single datastore currently | 20:17 |
| lifeless | jbryce: so, the first thing I want to understand, is what is a 'foundation resource' vs a 'project resource' | 20:17 |
| jbryce | this is what the team is working on breaking into separate pieces | 20:17 |
| jbryce | individual members are legally members of the foundation | 20:18 |
| lifeless | jbryce: thats interesting work, but I don't understand the relevance to the broad discussion, probably because I don't understand the distinction again. | 20:18 |
| jbryce | ATCs are a subset of that | 20:18 |
| mordred | jbryce: right. but we're not suggesting moving the operation of that data store - just the source code | 20:18 |
| mordred | I would personally rather not have access to that database | 20:18 |
| jbryce | there are contractual and legal requirements about access and control of the data and the systems that have access the data | 20:18 |
| ttx | jbryce: if mordred were to rasie a thread about this on -infra or -dev, would you be willing to publicly map the remaining tasks to complete to migrate the stuff ? Then we can understand the steps and check progress... | 20:19 |
| lifeless | mordred: I think you're jumping ahead of the discussion - and I'm 100% sure you know a lot more about the plumbing than the rest of us; could you perhaps let us learn :) | 20:19 |
| mordred | I'm not | 20:19 |
| mordred | this is where the confusion lies | 20:19 |
| mordred | I'm NOT saying that we should take over operatoin of all of the things that have potential legal ramifications | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | mordred: you are saying that 'The management of the technical matters relating to the OpenStack Project shall be managed by the Technical Committee. ' applies | 20:20 |
| mordred | lifeless: ok. fair | 20:20 |
| lifeless | that this is a technical matter, which we should be managing | 20:20 |
| * mordred shuts up - passes mic back to jbryce | 20:20 | |
| lifeless | running ops of a secure database with legal ramifications is a supremely technical matter | 20:20 |
| jbryce | lifeless: is a sponsorship contract between a corporation and the foundation a matter of the project? | 20:20 |
| lifeless | that it needs to be only accessed by specific personal due to legal issues is a huge and important constraint | 20:20 |
| lifeless | so in order for me to say 'hey, mordred, I agree with you', I think we need to understand why some bits count as 'technical' and others don't | 20:21 |
| mordred | lifeless: right. and to be clear - I thnk it's not that the bits are technical - I think it's key that some of them are technical parts of the project | 20:22 |
| mordred | I do agree with jbryce that there are potentially technical bits that are not part of the project | 20:22 |
| jbryce | lifeless: or a proprietary operations data a user has submitted under the condition that it only be shared with the foundation | 20:22 |
| jbryce | mordred: i think that's a key distinction | 20:22 |
| jbryce | to take a step back | 20:22 |
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| jbryce | i don't think any of us is against the idea of moving repos to follow the standard contribution process | 20:22 |
| lifeless | jbryce: I don't know! This is why I'm asking these 'please define stuff for me' questions! | 20:22 |
| jbryce | we are not against running resources on -infra resources where possible | 20:23 |
| lifeless | because it's not clear to me why a git repo for running a foundation-but-not-project website would be a technical matter for the project | 20:23 |
| lifeless | BUT | 20:23 |
| lifeless | the ops of said website wouldn't be | 20:23 |
| lifeless | there's no bright line I can see [yet] that delineates one but not the other | 20:23 |
| mordred | I think ultimately, once the legal bits are segregated, that there is no difference | 20:24 |
| ttx | mordred/jbryce: I think the main issue is the absence of roadmap -- it's difficult to comment on how fast we go (or how blocked we are) if you don't even agree on the list of work items | 20:24 |
| lifeless | part of that is that I don't actually understand the difference between 'the foundation' and the 'project' except that the foundation exists to nurture the project | 20:24 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:25 |
| markmc | ttx, yep | 20:25 |
| ttx | mordred/jbryce: so to move on, I'd like you two to participate in an open ML thread on the topic | 20:25 |
| mordred | ttx: ok. shall I start that? | 20:25 |
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| ttx | mordred/jbryce: see if we can converge at least on the list of steps and the limits | 20:25 |
| lifeless | In principle, could infra run the website and delegate back to *only foundation staff* all potential access to the legally sensitive bits? | 20:25 |
| markmc | and maybe rather than debate the meta issues in the thread | 20:25 |
| ttx | markmc: yes | 20:26 |
| markmc | focus more on what systems could next move to infra | 20:26 |
| markmc | and what one's can't | 20:26 |
| lifeless | if so, I could see an easy line of 'it's technical -> infra' but also 'this is legal -> only foundation staff touch' | 20:26 |
| jeblair | if incidental access to a sensitive database was required for infra-root, i'm sure we'd be willing to accomodate legal and technical requriements. we already maintain high standards of access to systems that we run. | 20:26 |
| mordred | well - yes - there is one thing though ... I _do_ at some point want to establish, possibly in this thread | 20:26 |
| mordred | which bits are actually under the governance of the TC and which bits are not | 20:26 |
| ttx | because I think I agree with both of you I think. It should be infra/open source wherever it can | 20:26 |
| jbryce | i do have a problem with a broad assertion about tc oversight in anything that could be classified as "technical" and is necessary for the operations of the foundation. so i think the scope issue is very important | 20:26 |
| lifeless | jbryce: would that sort of chain work for the foundation, from a legal perspective? | 20:26 |
| mordred | roadmap for implementation of getting them pysically controlled stems from that | 20:26 |
| jeblair | lifeless: in other words, to your suggestion: possibly; but i'd like to explore the idea of a flat structure because i think it could work. | 20:26 |
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| jgriffith | jbryce: I think I'm with you on that | 20:27 |
| mordred | because I do not believe we are in agreement on that point yet | 20:27 |
| ttx | jbryce: yes, I think we have to recognize that the Foundation is different from the Open source project | 20:27 |
| lifeless | jbryce: I want to understand the scope issue too ;) | 20:27 |
| mordred | jbryce: exactly | 20:27 |
| lifeless | jbryce: to be clear, I don't have a specific axe to grind here, I'm doing my best to understand it all :) | 20:27 |
| markmc | jbryce, right, I'm saying if we all put that assertion aside for a while we might make more concrete progress | 20:27 |
| mordred | jbryce: I _don't_ think we have oversight of all things technical that the foundation might do | 20:27 |
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| mordred | I'd like to figure out which ones we do have oversight of though | 20:27 |
| jbryce | mordred: ok. let's work on that | 20:28 |
| lifeless | mordred: I'd like to figure out a rule for figuring them out ;) | 20:28 |
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| ttx | ok, let's move on | 20:28 |
| mordred | jbryce: ++ | 20:28 |
| lifeless | if possible | 20:28 |
| ttx | #action mordred to start public thread on that | 20:28 |
| ttx | #topic Barbican incubation request (initial discussion) | 20:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barbican incubation request (initial discussion) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:28 | |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/020830.html | 20:28 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican | 20:29 |
| * ttx can stop juggling with his hats | 20:29 | |
| ttx | As usual we'll do this over two meetings | 20:29 |
| ttx | The first one we'll discuss and raise the main objections, so that the Barbican team can address them in new threads | 20:29 |
| ttx | The second one we'll do the final review and push for votes | 20:29 |
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| russellb | hm, i seem to recall a bunch more information added to the wiki | 20:30 |
| russellb | was it a different page? | 20:30 |
| russellb | jraim: ^ ? | 20:30 |
| russellb | scope, mission statement, for example | 20:30 |
| ttx | I looked at this request and I have a number of issues with it | 20:30 |
| jraim | russellb I added a bunch to the incuation section | 20:30 |
| jraim | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Incubation | 20:30 |
| ttx | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Incubation | 20:30 |
| ttx | yep | 20:30 |
| russellb | ah yes thanks | 20:30 |
| jraim | I can move it out to the main page if we like it all | 20:31 |
| ttx | My main objection would be similar to the one we rejected Designate for | 20:31 |
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| ttx | 68% of commits coming from the same person | 20:31 |
| ttx | 96% of commits coming from a single company | 20:31 |
| ttx | which makes it a bit brittle | 20:31 |
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| ttx | if said company or individual were to move on | 20:31 |
| jraim | Rack has 3 FT devs, 1 FT test in addition to product / doc writers | 20:32 |
| jraim | We've had some interest from other groups in contributing | 20:32 |
| jraim | I'm hoping that incubation will help that process along | 20:32 |
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| mordred | this is the same chicken and egg problem, tbh | 20:33 |
| mordred | and I think we're going to have to sort it out at some point - it's not going to keep not coming up | 20:33 |
| ttx | jraim: yes, unfortunately we don't have a status for that "attract contributors to this promising thing" state yet | 20:33 |
| ttx | My plan is to propose one such state very soon | 20:33 |
| lifeless | so we have a new set of guidelines we're working up | 20:33 |
| ttx | Barbican request came before I could | 20:33 |
| jraim | ttx understood, but I think we have a strong team working the product now. That should allow us to attract developers over time | 20:33 |
| lifeless | looks like barbican falls short of them to me | 20:33 |
| mordred | actually, I don't thinkn we need a new one | 20:34 |
| lifeless | like - no tempest thirdparty tests yet | 20:34 |
| jraim | ttx I'd agree with you if there wasn't already a team on it | 20:34 |
| russellb | lifeless: a number of them actually | 20:34 |
| mordred | we take programs without incubating them | 20:34 |
| mordred | tripleo is one | 20:34 |
| mordred | it has projects | 20:34 |
| sdague | lifeless: it's actually devstack-gate for pre-incubation | 20:34 |
| mordred | if those projects want to be incubated | 20:34 |
| sdague | tempest comes after | 20:34 |
| mordred | it has to propose them | 20:34 |
| mordred | so I think we have the structure already | 20:34 |
| lifeless | russellb: a number of requirements; or a number of proposed sets of requirements? | 20:34 |
| sdague | lifeless: d-g is also missing | 20:34 |
| mordred | we can accept the program proposal from barbican | 20:34 |
| ttx | mordred: so you think they should apply for a program first ? | 20:34 |
| lifeless | sdague: right, I was using an example :) | 20:34 |
| russellb | lifeless: barbican is missing a number of the things we have listed requirements | 20:35 |
| jraim | We do have a pretty good integration test suite. It uses the CloudCAFE testing framework | 20:35 |
| mordred | which would make them 'official' and people could work on them - but the repo barbican is still not incubated even | 20:35 |
| jeblair | jraim: what kind of feedback are you getting from other groups about their interest in barbican? | 20:35 |
| russellb | a number in progress already | 20:35 |
| mordred | ttx: yes | 20:35 |
| lifeless | russellb: right - I think we agree :) | 20:35 |
| sdague | russellb: I think you did a good job higlithing that in your thread, I see the list of tasks at "Tasks for Incubation" to be pre-incubation requirements | 20:35 |
| ttx | mordred: I have several objections to that... | 20:35 |
| mordred | ttx: beeause I think that accepting the program means we agree on the need | 20:35 |
| russellb | sdague: yep | 20:35 |
| sdague | so it seems premature to be doing this until those are done | 20:35 |
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| jraim | jeblair I'm seeing a lot of desire for the features we can help with. e.g projects wanting to provide encryption services | 20:35 |
| russellb | that's my opinion, yes | 20:35 |
| russellb | we could give it a "promising" status if we can come up with one though | 20:35 |
| mordred | ttx: okj | 20:35 |
| mordred | gah | 20:35 |
| jeblair | jraim: what happens when you ask them to commit resources to it? | 20:36 |
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| ttx | mordred: that means they would place themselves under the TC authority even if they get rejected from incubation ? | 20:36 |
| mordred | ttx: welcome to the jungle, yeah | 20:36 |
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| mordred | ttx: again - tripleo is under tc authority, none of their repos are integrated | 20:36 |
| mordred | or incubated | 20:36 |
| ttx | mordred: trying to wrap my head around it | 20:36 |
| jraim | jeblair We've had good responses (from swift for example) when we asked if they would be interseted in merging encryption patches | 20:36 |
| markmc | we don't have it listed in our requirements for new programs, but I'm surprised ... | 20:37 |
| sdague | mordred / ttx : that seems like a meta discussion for another day | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | jraim: what is "good response"? | 20:37 |
| lifeless | integration is for the integrated release | 20:37 |
| markmc | would have thought diversity and viability of the new program's team would be just as important | 20:37 |
| lifeless | programs are for initiatives we see that we need with teams built up around them | 20:37 |
| ttx | mordred: so programs could be about scope and incubation about maturity and integrated scope fit | 20:37 |
| jraim | jgriffith ptl said he would be willing to merge the patches and gave us guidance on what they would need to look like | 20:37 |
| annegentle | jraim: this line of thinking still gets me to barbican being under another umbrella, perhaps a security program | 20:37 |
| russellb | markmc: it was in there at one point .. | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | jraim: thanks | 20:37 |
| lifeless | projects are deliverables of programs | 20:37 |
| lifeless | devstack isn't integrated | 20:37 |
| jraim | jgriffith We've also seen work from the APL guys on transparent encryption for cinder which seemed reasonably well received | 20:38 |
| lifeless | nor is infra | 20:38 |
| jgriffith | jraim: ;) | 20:38 |
| jgriffith | jraim: I'm vaguely familiar | 20:38 |
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| jgriffith | jraim: I assumed Cinder was the primary target here TBH | 20:38 |
| ttx | mordred: I guess approving program but not incubation could be one way out of this maze | 20:38 |
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| jraim | jgriffith they are cetainly on the list, though I think the current approach is too limiting (e.g. tagged to libvirt) | 20:39 |
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| sdague | jraim: so honestly, using cloudcafe ends up being probably long term problematic because you'll need to convert over to tempest for integration | 20:39 |
| jeblair | ttx: 2 things: i think a program needs a diverse team too so may not be a solution; and are we straying from the topic? :) | 20:39 |
| jraim | jgriffith I want to see if we can enable transparent encyrption for all storage on a VM, not just cinder or ephemeral, but both with the same code. | 20:39 |
| ttx | jeblair: ok | 20:39 |
| jgriffith | jraim: we should chat off meeting sometime | 20:39 |
| ttx | Let's discuss scope for a bit | 20:39 |
| annegentle | jraim: I think it's fine you've got a writer started, I want to provide a template approach for other projects who want to plug into openstack docs eventually | 20:39 |
| russellb | jraim: jgriffith probably off topic :) | 20:39 |
| jraim | sdague this seems to be a conversation we have to have. I'm assured that the CloudCAFE tests can be run in the gate. IF that's not true, we obviously have a problem | 20:40 |
| jraim | jgriffith will do | 20:40 |
| ttx | jraim: could you explain where barbican actually stores data ? Swift ? Cinder ? Own data store ? | 20:40 |
| jgriffith | russellb: and thus my "we should chat off meeting" | 20:40 |
| sdague | jraim: you have been asured incorrectly | 20:40 |
| annegentle | jraim: what sdague said | 20:40 |
| jraim | annegentle she said she was going to touch base with you, but happy to talk more | 20:40 |
| russellb | jgriffith: yep, latency. | 20:40 |
| jgriffith | russellb: but tbh the majority of comments of late are "off topic" | 20:40 |
| jraim | ttx we store data in our own database. We also allow an optional HSM to be used to secure that data store | 20:40 |
| mordred | jraim: what sdague says is true | 20:41 |
| ttx | jraim: is there any reason to believe the sort of auditable and secured storage features you have in Barbican wouldn't make sense as part of... say... swift ? | 20:41 |
| jraim | sdague than I agree that is a major problem. I agree that our integration test suite must be run as part of the gate. If CloudCAFE won't work, we'll have to move it | 20:41 |
| mordred | jraim: we do testing in openstack with tempest. there is nothing stopping rackspace from running cloudcafe as a third-party thing | 20:42 |
| markmc | jraim, how would you compare Barbican capabilities to similar capabilities offered by existing public clouds (like AWS CloudHSM) ? | 20:42 |
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| mordred | (or anyone else, for that matter) | 20:42 |
| jraim | ttx all projects will expose their own end user services (e.g. encryption, auditing, etc). Barbican offers a way for services to deliver those services in a much easier way | 20:42 |
| russellb | AFAIK, you can't write third-party tempest tests though, can you? | 20:42 |
| markmc | jraim, not so much about quality or anything, but what's Barbican analogous to ? | 20:42 |
| russellb | doesn't have a plugin mechanism or something | 20:42 |
| sdague | russellb: we don't have a stable internals api | 20:42 |
| sdague | so you could... but it was be rebase chasing | 20:43 |
| russellb | so up and coming projects, for now, have to write an independent suite of some sort | 20:43 |
| jraim | mordred true, but all our integration tests are currently in CloudCAFE. Sounds like we'd need some or all of them in tempest | 20:43 |
| mordred | jraim: ++ | 20:43 |
| lifeless | jraim: yes :) | 20:43 |
| russellb | point being ... we can't tell people they need to be in tempest | 20:43 |
| russellb | because you can't do that | 20:43 |
| jeblair | except you can put them in tempest until they are integrated. | 20:43 |
| sdague | russellb: so the d-g job idea was to have basic sanity | 20:43 |
| russellb | sdague: right, i get it, and i've been working through it with solum | 20:44 |
| jraim | markmc Barbican uses the same HSM that Amazon does. However, amazon is bascially provisioning you a slice of an HSM and allowing direct access. We use an HSM as a backend, but Barbican takes care of multi-tenancy and 'speaking openstack' | 20:44 |
| sdague | russellb: I think the line we took in the proposal was "some kind of job" in a d-g env for incubation, then tempest testing for integration | 20:44 |
| * russellb nods | 20:44 | |
| mordred | right. so you could add tests to tempest in incubation, and would need to for graduatoin I think? | 20:44 |
| jraim | markmc Barbican is very similar to the software you would find in an HSM, just open-source and free. We do add some features and OpenStack integration, but the API is basically key management and generation | 20:44 |
| sdague | where "for" means prereq of | 20:44 |
| sdague | not during | 20:44 |
| markmc | jraim, cool, thanks | 20:44 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:45 |
| russellb | point is, tempest won't accept tests pre-incubation AFAIK | 20:45 |
| mordred | sdague: I agree with that | 20:45 |
| sdague | russellb: yes, that's true | 20:45 |
| russellb | so it's kind of all mixed up | 20:45 |
| ttx | jraim: thx for the explanation, solves most of my scope concerns | 20:45 |
| devananda | jeblair: *cant* put them in tempest until they are integrated? | 20:45 |
| russellb | but yes, you can still do a basic devstack-gate job without tempest | 20:45 |
| russellb | devananda: correct | 20:45 |
| sdague | russellb: so honestly.... we have the problem that we have integrated projects that have no tempest testing :) | 20:45 |
| annegentle | jraim: so the user cases are: give me access to my encrypted cinder volume? Or: give me access to the secret that gives me access to the cinder volume? | 20:45 |
| russellb | sdague: *nod* | 20:45 |
| mordred | wait. no. that's not what we just said | 20:45 |
| jraim | So it seems like we would want to move our basic integration tests over to tempest before graduation. CloudCAFE could still store additional tests as desired? | 20:46 |
| mordred | you can't put them into tempest until their incubated | 20:46 |
| mordred | s/their/they're/ | 20:46 |
| russellb | mordred: that | 20:46 |
| jraim | annegentle Users would access an encrypted volume thorugh cinder | 20:46 |
| russellb | and you can't write tempest tests outside of tempest | 20:46 |
| jraim | annegentle cinder would use barbican | 20:46 |
| sdague | devananda: what mordred said | 20:46 |
| devananda | sdague: and incubated projects taht want to be tested. but ... | 20:46 |
| lifeless | and this is why I think we need to make tempest have a somewhat stable api | 20:46 |
| russellb | so you just need "something" | 20:46 |
| * lifeless opens the can of worms | 20:46 | |
| russellb | for incubation IMO | 20:46 |
| russellb | lifeless: +1 | 20:46 |
| mordred | right. so during incubatoin, one is expected to write tempest tests and put them there | 20:46 |
| devananda | wait. now i'm confused | 20:46 |
| sdague | devananda: incubated projects are fair game | 20:46 |
| devananda | lol | 20:46 |
| russellb | but just talking about what we have today | 20:46 |
| devananda | sdague: ack | 20:46 |
| jraim | annegentle users would use barbican directly for auditing, logging or recokation | 20:46 |
| russellb | mordred: yes | 20:46 |
| lifeless | As it stands, I think cloudcafe is entirely fine for *pre-integration* | 20:46 |
| lifeless | sorry | 20:47 |
| russellb | mordred: or port your stuff to tempest | 20:47 |
| jraim | annegentle customers of an openstack cloud would also use it for secret storage | 20:47 |
| lifeless | *pre-incubation* | 20:47 |
| jgriffith | incubating directory in Tempest... separate tag and gate job (non-voting) | 20:47 |
| mordred | russellb: ++ | 20:47 |
| lifeless | once the incubation switch is flipped, moving into tempest... | 20:47 |
| mordred | ok - we might be going off into the weeds talking about tempets extension mechanisms here | 20:47 |
| lifeless | becomes a priority | 20:47 |
| russellb | but hopefully your devstack-gate job runs whatever you *do* have pre-incubation | 20:47 |
| jgriffith | russellb: or that :) | 20:47 |
| markmc | jraim, do you forsee pretty much all OpenStack services eventually depending on Barbican, sorta similar to how everything depends on Keystone | 20:47 |
| russellb | that seems reasonable | 20:47 |
| annegentle | jraim: for your scope, do you expect an admin api and auditing capability before "completion" | 20:47 |
| * markmc notes the current topic is scope of the project, not tempest integration :) | 20:48 | |
| sdague | yeh... we've gone off topic quite a bit | 20:48 |
| ttx | ok so to summarize | 20:48 |
| jraim | markmc I hope so. Most projects should / want to offer encryption services to customers. I hope that Barbican provides the ability to do that in a way that is secure, auditable and meets compliance requirments | 20:48 |
| ttx | it looks like the scope of the project is well-defined and makes sense | 20:48 |
| jraim | annegentle we have an admin api in the code now, we just haven't put anything in it yet | 20:48 |
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| ttx | there are some concerns about time size/diversity and some work to be done before filling all the current requirements for incubation | 20:49 |
| ttx | ow | 20:49 |
| ttx | s/time/team | 20:49 |
| lifeless | ~ | 20:49 |
| markmc | jraim, I guess that's implicit in the Future section of your Roadmap? would be good to list out the future potential integration points | 20:49 |
| jraim | markmc will do | 20:50 |
| markmc | jraim, excellent | 20:50 |
| jeblair | ttx: agreed; my biggest concern is diversity. | 20:50 |
| ttx | I think we can discuss all that this week in the thread and move on to a final decision next meeting | 20:50 |
| ttx | any other concern that was not directly mentioned yet ? | 20:50 |
| russellb | i think you guys have done a great job responding to work items so far, so thanks for that | 20:50 |
| jeblair | jraim: is hardware HSM testing required, or will software only (in the cloud) testing sufficiently test the project? | 20:50 |
| jraim | ttx I will reach out to some folks that have expressed interest and see if they can speak up | 20:50 |
| russellb | i'm concerned it probably won't all get done by next week, though | 20:51 |
| jraim | jeblair we offer a 'dev' hsm that is fine for testing in the cloud | 20:51 |
| russellb | so it may be worth talking about the program but not project idea a bit more on list | 20:51 |
| ttx | jraim: I'll explore the idea of applying to become an official "program", before applying for incubation | 20:51 |
| sdague | yeh, it seems like it might be better to table a vote until after that list got knocked out | 20:51 |
| jeblair | jraim: thanks | 20:51 |
| russellb | ttx: +1 | 20:51 |
| ttx | ok let's move on | 20:51 |
| ttx | #topic Incubation / Graduation / New program requirements | 20:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubation / Graduation / New program requirements (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:51 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59454/ | 20:52 |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/020844.html | 20:52 |
| russellb | #vote yes | 20:52 |
| ttx | I pushed a second version based on early comments. | 20:52 |
| ttx | The goal is to get to a consensual base version and then address new requirements as incremental change to this (living) document | 20:52 |
| * devananda perks up | 20:52 | |
| ttx | It will be much easier to review incremental changes after the base one is in | 20:52 |
| ttx | So please check if there is any rule you disagree strongly with | 20:52 |
| jeblair | ttx: +1 thinking about it -- like i said, i'm skeptical; i think a new program should have a diverse team too. i'm still mentioning this because it's current for this topic as well. :) | 20:52 |
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| ttx | if you want more in there, propose them as future changes instead of blocking this one | 20:52 |
| mordred | "Project must have a basic devstack-gate job set up" | 20:53 |
| mordred | I do not disagree with the rule | 20:53 |
| ttx | Will approve it once it passes the required number of +1 | 20:53 |
| mordred | BUT | 20:53 |
| mordred | as we're currently working on the early bits of tripleo-gate too - I think we might want to genercise that sentence? | 20:53 |
| russellb | gate job that runs some sort of functional testing? | 20:53 |
| lifeless | hang on | 20:53 |
| russellb | can do that as a follow-up change though i think | 20:53 |
| russellb | not critical | 20:53 |
| lifeless | right now, d-g is the only way things in the *integrated gate* get tested. | 20:53 |
| mordred | yeah. I'm not going to -1 it | 20:54 |
| lifeless | It's entirely accurate as-is. | 20:54 |
| mordred | yes | 20:54 |
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| mordred | it's fine to pass | 20:54 |
| mordred | just being that guy | 20:54 |
| ttx | ok | 20:54 |
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| lifeless | TripleO's deliverables aren't in the integrated gate, nor are they integrated or incubated. | 20:54 |
| russellb | and for most projects, something based on devstack-gate is how you'd add functional testing | 20:54 |
| sdague | yeh, let's clarify in post | 20:54 |
| lifeless | Tuskar will be a project that we incubate soonish. | 20:54 |
| russellb | (a bit of a pain to be honest, but doable) | 20:54 |
| ttx | moving on then :) | 20:54 |
| lifeless | And that will either go in d-g, or we'll revisit the language at that time. | 20:54 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes in progress | 20:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes in progress (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:54 | |
| mordred | oh - wait | 20:55 |
| russellb | i refuse to wait | 20:55 |
| ttx | #undo | 20:55 |
| mordred | dammit | 20:55 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x3a2ff10> | 20:55 |
| ttx | mordred: yes ? | 20:55 |
| mordred | Project must be compatible with all currently OpenStack-supported versions of python | 20:55 |
| markmc | good point | 20:55 |
| jeblair | ttx that's amazing i've never seen that before. | 20:55 |
| lifeless | I had quibbles with that | 20:55 |
| ttx | right, lifeless didn't like that one that much either | 20:55 |
| mordred | I think that should genericize | 20:55 |
| lifeless | I can live with it, but I don't think it actually captures intent | 20:55 |
| ttx | jeblair: watch and learn | 20:55 |
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| mordred | because aiui, we do not yet have a hard-fast-encoded rule about must be python | 20:56 |
| lifeless | 'I think this is trying to say 'must be deployable anywhere current OpenStack can be deployed today' using 'compatible with the Pythons we support' as a proxy - I'd rather we state the thing more directly.' | 20:56 |
| lifeless | Is what I said in review | 20:56 |
| markmc | yeah, something like that works | 20:56 |
| ttx | mordred: how about you propose those in a subsequent change ? | 20:56 |
| mordred | ttx: ok. Iwill do that | 20:56 |
| ttx | it's not as if the document was binding us or anything | 20:56 |
| russellb | deployable where openstack is deployable today would imply no new requirements | 20:57 |
| russellb | which isn't terribly realistic :) | 20:57 |
| markmc | new projects introducing new dependencies is potentially ok, though | 20:57 |
| russellb | markmc: jinx | 20:57 |
| ttx | it's more of an hopefully up-to-date matrix to check and communicate to wannabees | 20:57 |
| markmc | :) | 20:57 |
| mordred | must comply with current TC software policies | 20:57 |
| markmc | we have those? | 20:57 |
| lifeless | russellb: huh? no, it says that anyone coming in can't be incompatible with where we support deployments | 20:57 |
| mordred | markmc: yah | 20:57 |
| markmc | mordred, documented ? :) | 20:57 |
| jeblair | mordred: all our integrated projects are python, and we have established supported python versions | 20:57 |
| jgriffith | arosen: that was my question too | 20:57 |
| jeblair | i actually don't see a problem with it as written | 20:57 |
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| ttx | let's get this one in, wil be so much easier to discuss additions one by one after that ;) | 20:57 |
| jgriffith | err... markmc ^^ | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: ok | 20:58 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes in progress | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes in progress (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:58 | |
| lifeless | jeblair: something that doesn't work with the RH patched Python2.6 for instance, would that be a problem? | 20:58 |
| ttx | I approved the Compute program mission statement yesterday as we mentioned it at last meeting and it reached enough approvals | 20:58 |
| jeblair | these are guidelines; they don't prohibit us from varying from them or accepting non-python projects, which will require some work anyway. | 20:58 |
| ttx | Alphabetize list of extra ATCs: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58610/ | 20:58 |
| vishy | y | 20:58 |
| lifeless | jeblair: even though it does work with vanilla Python2.6 | 20:58 |
| jeblair | lifeless: it already is. :) | 20:58 |
| ttx | I think that one shall be abandoned, given that the main use for this list is time-sorted rather than alpha-sorted, and it didn't get that much YESes | 20:58 |
| lifeless | jeblair: I mean, would we reject their incubation on that basis? | 20:58 |
| markmc | lifeless, jeblair, that eventlet/subprocess thing is resolved now, btw | 20:58 |
| lifeless | markmc: cool | 20:59 |
| markmc | lifeless, jeblair, and RH Python maintainers accept it was their screwup | 20:59 |
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| ttx | will abandon if it doesn't get enough YES by EOW | 20:59 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:59 | |
| jeblair | lifeless: i expect we should have a discussion about it and seriously consider whether to waive the requirement | 20:59 |
| markwash | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/021233.html | 20:59 |
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| markwash | potential glance scope adjustment | 20:59 |
| mordred | jeblair: sure. I'm just saying we don't have to duplicate our current policies on that subject | 20:59 |
| markwash | not sure if of TC interest | 20:59 |
| mordred | jeblair: we can reference them | 20:59 |
| jeblair | lifeless: in that case, i would consider that this list of requirements had the intended effect. | 20:59 |
| ttx | J naming poll coming up, waiting for the lawyers pass on proposed name | 20:59 |
| lifeless | markmc: doit; you don't have enough on your plate atm | 20:59 |
| ttx | (go Jekyll) | 20:59 |
| lifeless | bah | 20:59 |
| lifeless | markwash: ^ | 20:59 |
| ttx | proposed names* | 20:59 |
| mordred | jekyll++ | 21:00 |
| jgriffith | markwash: I'm interested :) | 21:00 |
| lifeless | Jekyll, indiana? | 21:00 |
| mordred | lifeless: jekyll island, georgia | 21:00 |
| ttx | markwash: thanks for the link | 21:00 |
| lifeless | I mean, it has to be Indiana or Idaho right, for crazy names... | 21:00 |
| jeblair | mordred: okay. :) it would be good if it pointed to something concrete though, so a new project would know what's expected. that's what this list accomplishes. | 21:00 |
| russellb | Jekyll++ | 21:00 |
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| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 21:00 |
| russellb | done | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:00 |
| mordred | jeblair: I was really just trying to make sure that if we change them, we don't have to remember to do it in two places | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| lifeless | mordred: ++ | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 21:01:13 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-10-20.01.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-10-20.01.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-10-20.01.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | release / cross-project meeting now | 21:01 |
| ttx | dims, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, stevebaker, david-lyle, markmcclain, hub_cap: around ? | 21:01 |
| dims | \o | 21:01 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:01 |
| notmyname | here | 21:01 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:01 |
| russellb | ohai | 21:01 |
| hub_cap | howdy | 21:01 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | dims is replacing the traveling dhellmann | 21:02 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 21:02:25 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| devananda | \o | 21:02 |
| ttx | #topic Swift 1.11.0 | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Swift 1.11.0 (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
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| ttx | We have a milestone-proposed branch for 1.11.0 set up and if all goes well that should be released on Thursday | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/swift/+milestone/1.11.0 | 21:02 |
| ttx | notmyname: still no issue with it yet ? | 21:03 |
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| notmyname | nope. things look good | 21:03 |
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| ttx | notmyname: OK I'll wait for your go-ahead/ping/email to apply tag and upload resulting tarball | 21:03 |
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| notmyname | ttx: target wed pm or thurs am? | 21:03 |
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| ttx | notmyname: your call, ideally when we are both awake | 21:04 |
| notmyname | ok :-) | 21:04 |
| ttx | so your thurs morning / my thursday evening | 21:04 |
| ttx | or you ack on thu evening and I get it tagged on Friday morning | 21:04 |
| notmyname | sounds good to me | 21:04 |
| ttx | notmyname: anything else on that subject ? | 21:05 |
| notmyname | I don't have anythingon that for this meeting | 21:05 |
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| ttx | ok then | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic Icehouse-2 | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Icehouse-2 (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| ttx | We looked into icehouse-2 roadmaps during the 1:1s today | 21:06 |
| ttx | Looks mostly in order | 21:06 |
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| ttx | about 129 tracked blueprints and many many more if you cound Low ones | 21:06 |
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| ttx | remember icehouse-2 is branched on January 21, tagged on January 23 | 21:07 |
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| ttx | any question on that ? | 21:07 |
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| russellb | how can we incentivize people to target things realistically, and not just the soonest milestone? | 21:07 |
| russellb | a problem i have in nova anyway ... the world is targeted to icehouse-2 right now | 21:07 |
| russellb | was i1 before | 21:08 |
| ttx | hmm, public shaming when stuff gets deferred ? | 21:08 |
| russellb | just something to think about, don't have to go into too deep right now ... | 21:08 |
| russellb | heh, perhaps | 21:08 |
| ttx | tar and father ? | 21:08 |
| ttx | feathers* | 21:08 |
| russellb | set their blueprints on fire? | 21:08 |
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| ttx | frankly, it's a promised delivery date | 21:08 |
| ttx | if you constantly say crap, then you lose credibility | 21:09 |
| ttx | and your blueprints should lose priority as a result | 21:09 |
| markwash | I'm not sure there's always a counterparty to such a promise | 21:09 |
| russellb | i guess it's less of an issue for the Low ones | 21:09 |
| russellb | but if you get bumped > Low and you miss, it should drop back to Low | 21:09 |
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| ttx | but yeah suggestions welcome | 21:10 |
| russellb | thanks | 21:10 |
| russellb | can move on :) | 21:10 |
| ttx | #topic Storing quotas in keystone | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storing quotas in keystone (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:10 | |
| ttx | So there was some controversy around a feature proposed for keystone | 21:10 |
| ttx | Although not proposed as blueprint for icehouse, nor discussed in a HK summit session afaict | 21:10 |
| ttx | notmyname: do you want to try to summarize the concerns ? | 21:10 |
| ttx | dolphm: is that thing even on your roadmap ? | 21:11 |
| portante | ttx: can you post the feature description link? | 21:11 |
| notmyname | IIRC from the email thread, the proposal was to add all quotas into keystone (ie keystone as the authoritative place to store quotas for everything in a system) | 21:11 |
| ttx | portante: sure, one sec | 21:11 |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/020799.html | 21:12 |
| portante | ttx: thanks | 21:12 |
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| notmyname | ttx: my concern is that I think this is a terrible idea since it makes scaling this store impossible and makes using quota'd systems slow | 21:12 |
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| chmouel | i think oleg email is more informative http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/020981.html than mine | 21:13 |
| ttx | dolphm: you around ? | 21:13 |
| chmouel | notmyname: afaik from the discussion the keystone quota would push out to swift via a notifcation system | 21:13 |
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| russellb | i don't think it makes any sense, it's not an identity concern | 21:13 |
| notmyname | ttx: and I mentioned it last week to ensure it got cross-project eyes on it so that we go in a direction good for the project overall | 21:13 |
| dolphm | ttx: sorry, i'm trying to attend two meetings at once :( | 21:13 |
| markwash | notmyname: +1 some details have to be denormalized and highly consistent. putting those details (e.g. usage and limit) across service boundaries sounds bad | 21:13 |
| ttx | dolphm: bad idea | 21:14 |
| ttx | <ttx> dolphm: is that thing even on your roadmap ? | 21:14 |
| notmyname | chmouel: and how do you notify changes to 3 million containers? | 21:14 |
| dolphm | centralized storage of quotas -- yes | 21:14 |
| russellb | on your roadmap? | 21:14 |
| russellb | dolphm: did you get support from any other projects on it? | 21:14 |
| dolphm | russellb: from the people in whatever session we talked about it in.. about 2 summits ago | 21:15 |
| ttx | dolphm: couldn't find a blueprint | 21:15 |
| dolphm | it's been slow progress since | 21:15 |
| dolphm | ttx: one sec | 21:15 |
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| chmouel | notmyname: it's by account I was looking at it not for container quota (which is user based in swift) | 21:15 |
| ttx | dolphm: at least not a icehouse blueprint :) | 21:15 |
| dolphm | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/domain-quota-management-and-enforcement | 21:15 |
| dolphm | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/store-quota-data | 21:15 |
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| ttx | hah | 21:15 |
| russellb | i think clear *current* support from other projects should be a pre-req | 21:15 |
| russellb | 2 summits ago is like ancient times | 21:15 |
| dolphm | the second one was a direct result of the summit in SF i believe | 21:15 |
| dolphm | russellb: ++ | 21:16 |
| ttx | dolphm: do you agree with notmyname's scalability concerns ? | 21:16 |
| chmouel | the etherpad followup in HK https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/CentralizedQuotas | 21:16 |
| dolphm | the direction from the summit was centralized management & peristence of domain- and project-based quotas, but maintain decentralized reservations and enforcement | 21:16 |
| russellb | just doesn't seem to make sense why that's centralized, but nothing else is | 21:17 |
| russellb | keystone shouldn't be trying to solve openstack-wide administration usability | 21:17 |
| ttx | is there a benefit ? | 21:17 |
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| dolphm | ttx: of course; the suggested answer was that services should pull the latest quotas when necessary, and then subscribe for notifications of updates | 21:18 |
| ttx | sounds a bit outside of "identity" to me | 21:18 |
| annegentle | how would domain and project quotas map to swift? | 21:18 |
| russellb | ttx: +1 | 21:18 |
| ttx | dolphm: ok | 21:18 |
| dolphm | annegentle: domain-based quotas wouldn't, i don't think | 21:18 |
| chmouel | but project would do i believe | 21:18 |
| annegentle | chmouel: ok | 21:18 |
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| ttx | dolphm: the way it stands I fear tat there will be quotas in keystone but all the projects would keep their own | 21:19 |
| ttx | which makes the benefits of "centralized quotas" (if any), even more dubious | 21:19 |
| markwash | I think we just shouldn't confuse central administration with central storage | 21:20 |
| notmyname | dolphm: chmouel: they both may and may not map to swift. depends on the implementation of the cluster. identity is decoupled from resources in swift, so can be mapped by whatever application is using them | 21:20 |
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| ttx | so without buy-in from at least one consuming project there is little point in implementing that in keystone | 21:20 |
| ttx | you could even argue that's out of keystone scope | 21:21 |
| dolphm | in terms of roadmap in keystone, i see this as purely an extension at the moment, and it's not blocking any other work at the moment, at least in keystone. | 21:21 |
| comstud | it feels like centralized quotas will be difficult to keep accurate (in sync) | 21:21 |
| comstud | but even if we did them, I don't feel like keystone is the correct place for them | 21:21 |
| comstud | IMO | 21:21 |
| dolphm | comstud: where would you suggest? | 21:21 |
| russellb | dolphm: but who wants to use the extension? | 21:21 |
| notmyname | comstud: cache invalidation being a hard problem? :-) | 21:21 |
| dolphm | it sounds like a standalone service to me | 21:21 |
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| notmyname | dolphm: quotas-as-a-service? | 21:22 |
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| ttx | are decentralized quotas actually bad ? What problem are we trying to solve here ? | 21:22 |
| comstud | My current suggestion is keeping them within each project :) | 21:22 |
| russellb | quotas-as-a-lib > quotas-as-a-service IMO | 21:22 |
| ttx | +1 to both | 21:22 |
| comstud | russellb: +2 | 21:22 |
| hub_cap | quotas lib is necessary | 21:22 |
| notmyname | comstud: which AFAIK is where they are now (and working already) | 21:22 |
| morganfainberg | russellb, ++, putting on my deployer hat i don't want a quota-service | 21:22 |
| russellb | right | 21:22 |
| comstud | correct | 21:22 |
| notmyname | what is even in a quotas lib? | 21:23 |
| morganfainberg | russellb, well a service for the sake of being a service, not that it couldn't exist in something already there. | 21:23 |
| russellb | notmyname: just some shared code | 21:23 |
| russellb | i think we even have some of it in oslo-incubator right? | 21:23 |
| ttx | dolphm: so in summary I feel like this is a feature without a user, so at best a waste of time, at worse an unwarranted keystone scope extension... | 21:23 |
| dolphm | ttx: i don't disagree! | 21:24 |
| ttx | dolphm: heh | 21:24 |
| russellb | yes, quota.py in oslo-incubator | 21:24 |
| dolphm | i haven't spent much of my own time on it :P | 21:24 |
| russellb | dolphm: so, save us from spending time arguing against it then? | 21:24 |
| russellb | :) | 21:24 |
| ttx | dolphm: I hope this discussion will give you more grounds to reject the feature if it gets proposed | 21:25 |
| russellb | i thought dolphm said earlier it was on the roadmap for icehouse | 21:25 |
| dolphm | russellb: if other projects aren't clearly interested, i'll happily push back | 21:25 |
| russellb | ok | 21:25 |
| dolphm | russellb: it is currently, but it's not blocking | 21:25 |
| ttx | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/domain-quota-management-and-enforcement is in | 21:25 |
| chmouel | dolphm: +1 if no others are interested | 21:25 |
| dolphm | russellb: keystone itself isn't the stakeholder | 21:25 |
| russellb | who is? | 21:25 |
| russellb | honestly this is all about saving you (keystone) some time | 21:26 |
| dolphm | russellb: appreciated :) | 21:26 |
| russellb | and from ending up with a confusing mixed state of affairs come icehouse | 21:26 |
| dolphm | untargeting now | 21:26 |
| russellb | ok | 21:26 |
| comstud | russellb: just say 'nova is not interested in a centralized quota service' ;) | 21:26 |
| ttx | sounds good, moving on ? | 21:26 |
| comstud | heheh | 21:26 |
| russellb | comstud: well swift started it, i just piled on :-) | 21:27 |
| ttx | #topic Red Flag District / Blocked / Interlocked blueprints | 21:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Red Flag District / Blocked / Interlocked blueprints (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:27 | |
| comstud | :) | 21:27 |
| ttx | No blocked blueprint afaict | 21:27 |
| russellb | yay | 21:27 |
| ttx | That said there are a few cross-project dependencies prio mismatch we need to discuss | 21:27 |
| ttx | horizon/ceilometer-api-enhancements (Medium, lsmola, icehouse-2) depends on: | 21:27 |
| ttx | ceilometer/statistics-order-by-and-limit-for-grouped-query (Undefined, No assignee, next) | 21:27 |
| ttx | jd__, david-lyle ? | 21:28 |
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| * jd__ listening | 21:28 | |
| ttx | If that's a true dep we might need to raise prio/targeting of the Ceilo blueprint | 21:28 |
| ttx | if that one doesn't get done maybe the horizon plan should be anadoned | 21:28 |
| ttx | abandoned* | 21:28 |
| jd__ | I can change the prio and target it, but if nobody is assigned to it, it won't be done | 21:28 |
| ttx | jd__: no point in targeting it if nobody does it | 21:29 |
| jd__ | my point (pun intended) | 21:29 |
| david-lyle | I think it is a partial dependency | 21:29 |
| david-lyle | We may be able to achieve sections of the bp without this particular ceilometer bp | 21:29 |
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| david-lyle | I'll work with lsmola to resolve if no one picks up the dependency | 21:30 |
| ttx | david-lyle: so I'd split the blueprint in two, one part depending and the other not, and target the second part to "next" | 21:30 |
| david-lyle | ttx: will do | 21:30 |
| ttx | that way the i2 work doesn't depend on something nobody is working on (yet) | 21:30 |
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| ttx | lsmola said that complex-filter-expressions-in-api-queries might actually solve the requirement though | 21:30 |
| ttx | so maybe it's just about replacing the depend to point to that instead | 21:31 |
| ttx | OK, the other one is: | 21:31 |
| ttx | heat/management-api (High, andersonvom, icehouse-2) depends on: | 21:31 |
| ttx | keystone/service-scoped-role-definition (Undefined, arvind-tiwari, No milestone) | 21:31 |
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| ttx | same thing, if it's a true depend it's unlikely to be doable if the keystone BP itself is not in icehouse | 21:32 |
| ttx | stevebaker, dolphm: ? | 21:32 |
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| stevebaker | dolphm: could this please be evaluated for approval? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/service-scoped-role-definition | 21:32 |
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| stevebaker | dolphm: we have a High icehouse-2 blueprint depending on it, so one way or another the blueprints will need to be aligned | 21:33 |
| ttx | stevebaker: ideally Arvind Tiwari would target the appropriate milestone | 21:33 |
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| * ttx reads heat/management-api waiting for dolphm | 21:35 | |
| ttx | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/management-api | 21:35 |
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| ttx | stevebaker: any idea if Arvind is likely to deliver that ? i.e. is it more of a resource assignment problem, or a BP acceptation problem ? | 21:36 |
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| david-lyle | spoke with Arvind re: this bp, he is working to get the bp accepted | 21:37 |
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| stevebaker | actually I think it may not be a hard dependency, management-api could move to using service-scoped-roles after it lands | 21:37 |
| ttx | david-lyle: you should ask Arvind to set the milestone | 21:37 |
| ttx | david-lyle: it won't get on dolph's radar until he does | 21:37 |
| david-lyle | ttx: ack | 21:38 |
| stevebaker | I'll check with shardy_afk to see how hard the dep is | 21:38 |
| ttx | So... Arvind targets milestone, Dolph to review/aprove it, stevebaker to check if the BP could be split between one part depending and the other not depending on that | 21:38 |
| ttx | and we'll review the blocker again next week | 21:39 |
| ttx | stevebaker: works for you ? Looks like we lost dolphm | 21:39 |
| stevebaker | lgtm | 21:39 |
| dolphm | ttx: stevebaker: david-lyle: apologies! i'll have to read back later, and follow up | 21:39 |
| russellb | dolphm: this meeting is better | 21:39 |
| ttx | dolphm: moving on read backlog and let us know if proposed plan looks good | 21:40 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:40 | |
| ttx | who do we have | 21:40 |
| devananda | \o | 21:41 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov ? | 21:41 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:41 |
| ttx | I don't think I see kurt_griffiths | 21:41 |
| ttx | So quick release integration status update | 21:41 |
| ttx | devananda: Ironic got a tag for icehouse-1 | 21:42 |
| russellb | nick is currently kgriffs_afk | 21:42 |
| devananda | ttx: indeed - thanks! | 21:42 |
| ttx | devananda: do you feel you're ready to switch to a milestone-proposed branch and tarball model for i2 ? | 21:42 |
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| ttx | i.e. will have a usable deliverable by then ? | 21:42 |
| ttx | to summarize, the milestone-proposed branch model is: | 21:43 |
| devananda | for some definition of "usable deliverable" - yes :) | 21:43 |
| ttx | on the Tuesday/Wednesday to create a branch from master pointing to the proposed milestone SHA | 21:43 |
| ttx | you can backport stuff to the branch for a couple days if really needed (like the tarball is unusable) | 21:43 |
| devananda | but yes, I think we'll have the essential bits working, and I would like to go through the process at i2 | 21:44 |
| ttx | then on Thursday/Friday I tag the HEAD of milestone-proposed | 21:44 |
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| devananda | AIUI, we dont need Nova integration at this stage (though there's a chance we'll have that, too) | 21:44 |
| ttx | that generates a tarball, which is uploaded on Launchpad milestone page | 21:44 |
| ttx | (and signed) | 21:44 |
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| ttx | devananda: ok, so we'll try the switch for i2 | 21:44 |
| devananda | yea, all of that ^ would be great to do, so that downstream folks can consume it and start testing / giving us feedback | 21:45 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: Savanna did the full MP dance / tarball thing for I1, so you're ready | 21:45 |
| ttx | we'll do the same for I2 | 21:45 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup | 21:45 |
| ttx | No news from Marconi | 21:45 |
| * ttx should more formally encourage kgriffs to join us here | 21:46 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, and it was done by you, so, the correct process was ensured ;) | 21:46 |
| ttx | devananda, SergeyLukjanov: any question on release management integration ? | 21:46 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, nope | 21:46 |
| devananda | just one, slightly tangential | 21:46 |
| devananda | any guidelines on a numbering scheme for client releases? I knkow they're not coordinated... | 21:47 |
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| markwash | semantic versioning? | 21:47 |
| ttx | Most libs do major.minor.patch | 21:47 |
| ttx | what markwash said | 21:47 |
| devananda | cool. thanks | 21:47 |
| ttx | devananda, SergeyLukjanov: how are the other parts of your incubation going so far ? | 21:47 |
| ttx | like QA/docs | 21:48 |
| devananda | ttx: just had some lengthy discussions with tempest folks about ironic getting in there | 21:48 |
| devananda | it's on track | 21:48 |
| ttx | ok | 21:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, the first version of heat integration will be landed soon | 21:48 |
| devananda | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48109/8 and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/53917/8 | 21:48 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: sounds good | 21:48 |
| notmyname | devananda: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0440/ | 21:48 |
| devananda | and there's an ML thread on it now, as well. so we should see that land soon | 21:48 |
| annegentle | SergeyLukjanov: ttx: I do have an action item to write up some guidelines for writing pluggable docs | 21:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, first patches for tempest was created to add api tests | 21:48 |
| annegentle | that should help incubating projects write docs that are easily placed in our existing titles | 21:49 |
| devananda | ttx: as for docs, we auto generate both API and developer docs at this point. and i am planning to start working on deployer docs closer to the end of the cycle | 21:49 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov, devananda: you might be interested in https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59454/ to see TC requirements for incubation and graduation | 21:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | annegentle, cool | 21:49 |
| devananda | annegentle: it would be good for us to talk at some point about adding ironic as we look at applying for graduation | 21:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I've already placed some comments and monitoring changes | 21:50 |
| devananda | ttx: looked at that when it came up in the TC meeting | 21:50 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ok | 21:50 |
| devananda | ttx: i think we will meet nearly all of taht already, except for # of core reviewers (we have 4 today) | 21:50 |
| ttx | it's a living document, trying to represent what the TC is likely to apply as rules | 21:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, as for the docs, we have http://docs.openstack.org/developer/savanna/ with all docs including different guides and api descriptions | 21:50 |
| ttx | ok | 21:50 |
| annegentle | devananda: yeah, the docs team would prefer to not add a new title this release, but next release, revise the install guide. | 21:51 |
| ttx | let's move on to open discussion, feel free to continue to ask questions | 21:51 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:51 | |
| annegentle | devananda: so you're on the radar but not this release, if that makes sense | 21:51 |
| annegentle | \o | 21:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I'd like to return back this month to discuss the more detailed list of requirements for savanna to graduate | 21:51 |
| devananda | annegentle: interesting. how does that work - let's assume we graduate, but are not in the docs? | 21:51 |
| annegentle | devananda: docs team mission is to document core | 21:52 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: raising a thread on the ML about that would be appropriate | 21:52 |
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| annegentle | devananda: we are so underresourced we have to draw a line, but we want to work with teams | 21:52 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ok | 21:52 |
| annegentle | devananda: to get more docs. heat and ceilometer got some docs in, for example | 21:52 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: just make sure the TC members are aware of the thread (posting a link to the -dev discussion on the -tc list is ok) | 21:52 |
| ttx | PTLs: By popular demand I'll probably switch our 1:1s to a specific (logged) channel, like #openstack-relmgr-office or something | 21:52 |
| devananda | annegentle: understood about resource shortage ... any suggestions on what we can do in the absence of having docs in the official docs? | 21:52 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, you've answered my next question :) | 21:52 |
| ttx | People want to be able to conveniently access 1:1s content, without having to filter noise from #openstack-dev channel logs | 21:52 |
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| devananda | annegentle: ah. so it's fine for us to contribute docs then? | 21:53 |
| ttx | russellb: ^ | 21:53 |
| russellb | ttx: neat | 21:53 |
| annegentle | devananda: we want them to plug in to specific titles we already have. What I'm saying is that for icehouse I'm not sure we have a pluggable model for you... | 21:53 |
| annegentle | devananda: probably over explaining, but tripleo won't get much from the doc team during icehouse | 21:54 |
| ttx | anything else, anyone ? | 21:54 |
| annegentle | me me! | 21:54 |
| annegentle | pick me! | 21:54 |
| * russellb imagines annegentle jumping up and down raising her hand | 21:54 | |
| ttx | annegentle: this is open discussion, feel free to speak :) | 21:54 |
| annegentle | We have four interns starting next week with the GNOME Outreach Program for Women | 21:54 |
| annegentle | #link https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen/2013/DecemberMarch | 21:54 |
| russellb | awesome | 21:54 |
| ttx | we as in openstack ? or docs ? | 21:54 |
| devananda | annegentle: hmm, let's chat a bit after the meeting. i may be able to toss some resource your way, but if there's no where to plug the documentation in, then i'm not sure what to do (besides a wiki page) | 21:55 |
| annegentle | Dec. 10 is their start date | 21:55 |
| ttx | nice | 21:55 |
| russellb | 2 docs 2 horizon looks like? | 21:55 |
| annegentle | ttx: details are in that link but there is one for API docs, two working on Horizon, one for Marconi | 21:55 |
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| russellb | Marconi one sounded like a doc thing i guess? | 21:56 |
| annegentle | russellb: yeah the Marconi one is more or less doc but mentored by a marconi dev | 21:56 |
| ttx | annegentle: yep, saw that on link | 21:56 |
| russellb | cool | 21:56 |
| russellb | thanks for coordinating, very cool program. | 21:56 |
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| annegentle | I need to write a blog post | 21:56 |
| annegentle | russellb: thanks! | 21:56 |
| annegentle | happy for HP to step in to fund some extras after the first round of funding, that was cool | 21:56 |
| annegentle | Rackspace, the OpenStack Foundation, and HP (plus GNOME) are making it all happen | 21:56 |
| ttx | any other good news ? | 21:57 |
| annegentle | ttx: 15 days until Christmas? | 21:57 |
| annegentle | :) | 21:57 |
| ttx | true. Hope you've been nice. | 21:57 |
| russellb | indeed ... and i'm taking a week off from christmas to new years | 21:57 |
| annegentle | always | 21:58 |
| russellb | because i have to ... but it should be nice. | 21:58 |
| ttx | most people do. It's another "recommended off week" | 21:58 |
| russellb | +1 | 21:58 |
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| ttx | ok then, let's wrap up | 21:58 |
| ttx | thanks everyone | 21:58 |
| stevebaker | I'll be 2 weeks off. its summer here | 21:58 |
| russellb | thanks, ttx! | 21:58 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 21:58:47 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-10-21.02.html | 21:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-10-21.02.txt | 21:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-10-21.02.log.html | 21:58 |
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| devananda | notmyname: thanks for the pep ref. exactly what i was looking for | 21:59 |
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| notmyname | devananda: I hope that's the right one. I know there was "a thing" in the python word about it. that's what I could find in the limited time | 22:00 |
| devananda | notmyname: huh. well, until someone tells me otherwise, it's better than me just making something up based on my own preference/experience | 22:01 |
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| david-lyle | #startmeeting Horizon | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 10 22:01:50 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is david-lyle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:01 |
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| jcoufal | o/ | 22:02 |
| david-lyle | Hello Horizon folks! | 22:02 |
| lsmola_ | hello | 22:02 |
| lblanchard | hi all! | 22:02 |
| MaxV | o/ | 22:02 |
| jtomasek | hi | 22:02 |
| mrunge | hello! | 22:02 |
| bdehamer | hi | 22:02 |
| jomara | howdy | 22:02 |
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| david-lyle | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Horizon | 22:03 |
| ohnoimdead | hi! | 22:03 |
| david-lyle | No general announcements today | 22:03 |
| david-lyle | so let's jump in | 22:03 |
| david-lyle | #topic Discuss integration of TripleO UI | 22:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss integration of TripleO UI (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:04 | |
| david-lyle | So this item was added to the agenda based on a mailing list thread | 22:04 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, so what are the conditions for the merge? | 22:04 |
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| lsmola_ | david-lyle, given that make sense, cause all UIs belongs in Horizon | 22:05 |
| david-lyle | The general question posted was would it make more sense for the UI component of Tuskar to merge into the Horizon program rather than the TripleO program | 22:05 |
| david-lyle | I think from a code make-up perspective and an eventual home perspective this makes perfect sense, however.. | 22:06 |
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| jtomasek | a note: on the TripleO meeting we agreed that yes. | 22:06 |
| jpich | So far we've carried UIs in our own tree when a project gets integrated | 22:06 |
| david-lyle | I'm not sure what the organization structure would be | 22:06 |
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| david-lyle | jpich, to be fair the aims of tuskar UI is much larger than say Trove as far as Horizon is concerned | 22:07 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, not sure either | 22:07 |
| kgriffs | russellb: o/ | 22:07 |
| jcoufal | I am torn to pieces as well | 22:07 |
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| jpich | If I understood correctly a big part of Tuskar was a new "Infrastructure" dashboard, at the same level than project and admin? Maybe my information is outdated | 22:08 |
| mrunge | I think it will fit there | 22:08 |
| david-lyle | yes, It's a well populated dashboard | 22:08 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, well I do see it as separate panel, that just shows when Tuskar is present | 22:08 |
| lblanchard | jpich: that's my understanding | 22:08 |
| jcoufal | at one side it all make sense to be part of UI project | 22:08 |
| jtomasek | jpich: correct | 22:08 |
| mrunge | we have had several requests about adding features, which belong to infrastructure | 22:09 |
| jpich | lblanchard, jtomasek: Thanks! | 22:09 |
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| david-lyle | I do think it makes sense, but I think it would still have to be a separate code base for now | 22:09 |
| mrunge | so it would make sense for horizon to have it | 22:09 |
| david-lyle | and there will be a need for core-reviewer overlap | 22:09 |
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| jcoufal | david-lyle: +1 | 22:09 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, so do you mean separate codebase placed under Horizon program? | 22:09 |
| jtomasek | david-lyle: +1 if that is not an issue from Horizon point | 22:09 |
| jpich | david-lyle: Until when? | 22:10 |
| david-lyle | lsmola_: yes, until TripleO/Tuskar is an intergrated part of the release | 22:10 |
| jcoufal | I think this sounds very reasonable | 22:10 |
| jpich | That makes sense to me | 22:10 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, I am not really sure how that can be done, but yes that seems to be reasonable | 22:10 |
| david-lyle | The code base will be what I image it is today, an extension of the current Horizon repo | 22:10 |
| mrunge | we even could add it now or very soon | 22:10 |
| jcoufal | yes please | 22:11 |
| mrunge | and make tuskar a config option | 22:11 |
| jcoufal | the sooner the better | 22:11 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, ok | 22:11 |
| mrunge | rdopieralski had the plugin concept merged today | 22:11 |
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| lsmola_ | mrunge, well yeah, we could add it now, and it would stay hidden unless user will have Tuskar | 22:11 |
| david-lyle | mrunge, that's right | 22:11 |
| mrunge | and a demo option is about configuring tuskar | 22:11 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, which they wont | 22:11 |
| mrunge | switch on/off | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | less overhead for the tuskar folks then | 22:12 |
| mrunge | exactly | 22:12 |
| jomara | that sounds good | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | So, this jumps topics a bit, but review backlog worries me a lot | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | even with the current scope | 22:13 |
| mrunge | and we don't get any evil surprises, when tuskar becomes official | 22:13 |
| david-lyle | adding more core-reviewers from tuskar should help, but I think patches are languishing much too long now | 22:13 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, I have to check that plugin patch | 22:13 |
| mrunge | so, david-lyle should we move to topic #2? | 22:13 |
| mrunge | (reviews) | 22:13 |
| david-lyle | well, I think it effects #1 | 22:14 |
| mrunge | yes, I agree | 22:14 |
| david-lyle | So let's circle back to #1 in a sec | 22:14 |
| jtomasek | david-lyle: I thing good amount of tripleo-core reviewers working on tuskar-ui will jump to Horizon reviews right away (me included) | 22:14 |
| david-lyle | #topic Reviews | 22:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reviews (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:14 | |
| mrunge | that was brought by me | 22:14 |
| jpich | I would appreciate a general rule from when we accept new components' UI into our tree. We've turned away code before because the project was incubated but not integrated, a clear guideline would help being fair and treating everyone the same way | 22:15 |
| mrunge | and I'm currently concerned about a long review queue | 22:15 |
| mrunge | jpich +1 | 22:15 |
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| david-lyle | according to russell's stats we have: | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | New patch sets in the last 30 days: 545 (18.2/day) | 22:15 |
| jpich | We are getting a lot more patches and contributors than before, which also very cool - even if it means reviews are taking longer at the moment (which sucks) | 22:16 |
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| mrunge | still I see very few core reviews during the last days | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | yes, which means we need more reviewers, hopefully these new contributors are willing to lend some review time | 22:17 |
| jpich | Personally I've had less time for reviews since the Summit though I hope to be back to normal in the new year - sorry for not helping picking up much of the slack at the moment | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | I think several new contributors have jumped right in | 22:17 |
| ohnoimdead | and some old contributors as well :) | 22:17 |
| mrunge | but in general, we'd love to see more folks doing reviews | 22:18 |
| jpich | Yep we should definitely encourage people to review :) | 22:18 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, we have been blessed today to make mor reviews, 6 more people from tuskar should do at least a review per day | 22:18 |
| david-lyle | I think the current review load has no margin of error, that is if a core goes on vacation has a work commitment we fall terribly behind | 22:19 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, to make things moving :-) | 22:19 |
| mrunge | good news lsmola_ | 22:19 |
| david-lyle | so, in that light I would love to see a larger review pool | 22:19 |
| david-lyle | s/review/reviewer/ | 22:19 |
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| jpich | so all the patches are perfect by the time a core reviewer gets to it :-) | 22:19 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 22:20 |
| mrunge | ha! I'd love to see it | 22:20 |
| jpich | I believe ;) | 22:20 |
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| david-lyle | So, to the current tuskar folks, do you worry about the latency for your incubating project? | 22:20 |
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| david-lyle | incubating projects require a faster turn around time then we currently provide | 22:21 |
| jomara | we do have blazing review turnaround right now | 22:21 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, yes | 22:21 |
| jomara | so it is a concern | 22:21 |
| mrunge | how many of you tuskar guys have been core at tripleO? | 22:21 |
| jcoufal | mrunge: for UI? | 22:21 |
| lblanchard | is there something that the tripleo team is doing that speeds up their review time? Or is it simply the number of patches vs. reviewers? | 22:21 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, we have to make a lot of patches for tuskar-ui and also for horizon in coming months | 22:21 |
| mrunge | yes | 22:21 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, me | 22:22 |
| jcoufal | mrunge: I think 5-6 | 22:22 |
| jomara | me, jtomasek, lsmola | 22:22 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, jomara, jtomasek | 22:22 |
| lsmola_ | hehe | 22:22 |
| mrunge | ok, I see. | 22:22 |
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| mrunge | in my eperience, not answering to reviewers requests has been an issue in the past | 22:23 |
| mrunge | esp. from you tuskar guys | 22:23 |
| david-lyle | hate to bring this up, but all tuskarUI folks are RedHat? | 22:23 |
| mrunge | that slowed the process down a bit | 22:23 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: that's correct | 22:23 |
| jomara | yeah | 22:23 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: yep | 22:23 |
| jomara | just the tuskar-ui guys, not all tripleo | 22:23 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, tzumainn, lsmola, jtomasek, jomara + non core akrivoka, rdopieralsky | 22:24 |
| david-lyle | I ask merely because we try not to have all 3 people, author, 2 core be from the same company, a working principle in general | 22:24 |
| david-lyle | I'm not sure how that changes for an incubated project | 22:24 |
| david-lyle | not sure that it bothers me either | 22:24 |
| jpich | I think it's a good rule | 22:25 |
| mrunge | I was tuskar core? | 22:25 |
| jpich | *principle | 22:25 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, (though rdopieralsky have kickass python skills, he just came late) | 22:25 |
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| jcoufal | mrunge: you don't know about that? | 22:25 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, no the mesage is to you :-) | 22:25 |
| jcoufal | :) | 22:25 |
| mrunge | no | 22:25 |
| mrunge | hahaha | 22:25 |
| jomara | mrunge: lsmola_ uses an odd IRC client that puts a comma when he tab completes | 22:26 |
| jomara | mrunge: shame him! | 22:26 |
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| lsmola_ | jomara, hehe | 22:26 |
| ohnoimdead | +1 on the general concept of reviews not all coming from the same company for any specific patch (although i must admin nebula has been guilty of that in the past, but it was a smaller project then) | 22:26 |
| mrunge | +1 ohnoimdead | 22:26 |
| mrunge | that's rule I like | 22:27 |
| jpich | Agreed | 22:27 |
| ohnoimdead | admin=admit fyi | 22:27 |
| mrunge | but in the past, that has not be a problem | 22:27 |
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| ohnoimdead | stupid question: where does the tusker-ui code currently live? | 22:28 |
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| jtomasek | ohnoimdead: you mean +2 reviews, right? | 22:28 |
| jomara | seems fair to have at minumum 1/3 of (reviewr1+reviewer2+author) not be from the same company | 22:28 |
| lsmola_ | ohnoimdead, as part of tripleo program | 22:28 |
| ohnoimdead | jtomasek: yeah | 22:28 |
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| mrunge | ohnoimdead, https://github.com/openstack/tuskar-ui/tree/master/tuskar_ui | 22:28 |
| ohnoimdead | mrunge: thanks! | 22:28 |
| mrunge | if I'm not terribly wrong | 22:28 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, well that could slow things down in few coming months, though won be a problem later I guess | 22:29 |
| jomara | it will | 22:29 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, we are currently rebuilding it due to feedback from the conference | 22:29 |
| david-lyle | I think we have some logistics to work out, but I would be in favor of adding tuskar ui | 22:30 |
| mrunge | so, would it be possible for you tuskar guys to make a plan, how the code shall be merged into our code base? | 22:30 |
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| mrunge | ... just to discuss this at the next meeting? | 22:30 |
| mrunge | is that too quick? | 22:30 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, can we sit on that tomorrow with rdopieralsky, seems like you already have a plan :-) | 22:30 |
| mrunge | I was just thinking about reading a 20k lines of code patch | 22:31 |
| jpich | :| | 22:31 |
| mrunge | and I don't like the idea | 22:31 |
| david-lyle | jpich, I think the main difference here between tuskar and other service UIs is that Tuskar is a more fundamental change to the direction of Horizon | 22:31 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, would it be possible to allow to only Redhat people for the Infrastructure tab? | 22:31 |
| david-lyle | I'd rather not react late to such a scope change | 22:32 |
| mrunge | lsmola_, is there a reason for this? | 22:32 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, before other people will get to pace of what Tuskar-Ui is | 22:32 |
| ohnoimdead | Ismola_: O.o | 22:32 |
| david-lyle | lsmola_: not sure, I think there may need to be some mechanics before the two core teams merge | 22:32 |
| jpich | I think lsmola mean, is it ok if for a while the +2 reviews happen to come from the same company for this specific part of the code | 22:32 |
| ohnoimdead | ah | 22:33 |
| lsmola_ | jpich, yes, thank you for rephrasing :-) | 22:33 |
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| mrunge | that sounds different | 22:33 |
| david-lyle | jpich: that would be fine | 22:33 |
| mrunge | I was worried about prohibiting other contributors to patch there something... | 22:33 |
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| lsmola_ | jpich, :-) thanks for understanding me | 22:34 |
| david-lyle | There certainly will be a ramp up phase | 22:34 |
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| jpich | lsmola: No worries... though I had to read twice too :o) | 22:34 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, also itś not entirely easy to run development env for tuskar UI | 22:34 |
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| jpich | Is the assumption that the core teams will be merged straight away? | 22:35 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, also costs at least 12GB ram, preferably 16GB | 22:35 |
| david-lyle | I think that needs to be discussed as well | 22:35 |
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| david-lyle | lsmola_: you may be doing it wrong ;) | 22:35 |
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| lsmola_ | david-lyle, we are running to many openstacks :-) | 22:35 |
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| lsmola_ | david-lyle, itś the minimal required env with simulatin 4 baremetals | 22:36 |
| jpich | david-lyle: Fair enough, re: fundamental change. I'm realising this as I read more :) (/me was thinking, well it's a new dashboard/tab right, just coming with a bit more code than usual) | 22:36 |
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| ohnoimdead | another stupid question: does tusker work with devstack? | 22:36 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, well core merge would be welcome | 22:36 |
| jomara | ohnoimdead: not a stupid question at all | 22:37 |
| lsmola_ | ohnoimdead, no, tuskar is for deployment | 22:37 |
| lsmola_ | ohnoimdead, so it also does what devstack do (tuskar+tripleo) | 22:37 |
| * mrunge is not using devstack at all.... | 22:37 | |
| ohnoimdead | gotcha. makes sense. | 22:38 |
| jpich | It sounds like leveraging our new plugin mechanism is also an option, even if the project/repo moves under the horizon umbrella | 22:38 |
| lsmola_ | ohnoimdead, think of openstack as an regular application(like wordpress), you will use openstack to deploy the application (meaning it will deploy itself :-)) | 22:38 |
| mrunge | jpich +1 | 22:38 |
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| * ohnoimdead needs to go read a lot more about tusker+triple-o | 22:38 | |
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| lifeless | ohnoimdead: you could use devstack to bring up a baremetal/ironic cloud | 22:39 |
| lifeless | ohnoimdead: and run tuskar on that to deploy a KVM cloud separately | 22:40 |
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| ohnoimdead | very cool. i'm a little behind on some of the new os projects. | 22:40 |
| ohnoimdead | new being within the last 6 months. :p | 22:40 |
| lsmola_ | lifeless, I think I have tried similar crazines from start :-) but failed | 22:41 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, let's make an action item, the tuskar guys should come up with a merge plan ? | 22:41 |
| lifeless | lsmola_: yeah, *I* wouldn't try it, but in principle... | 22:41 |
| lsmola_ | hehe | 22:41 |
| david-lyle | Is there anyone who wants to express a strong opinion against bring tuskar into the Horizon program? | 22:41 |
| lsmola_ | lifeless, yeah I get you :-) | 22:41 |
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| david-lyle | if not, I'd like to see a plan for the merging of code that is not a massive code drop | 22:42 |
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| jpich | +1 to bringing it under the Horizon umbrella - although should we still wait for it to be integrated? Can a program have both incubated and integrated elements? | 22:42 |
| mrunge | +1 for the merge in smaller pieces | 22:42 |
| lsmola_ | jpich, good question | 22:42 |
| lifeless | jpich: a program can | 22:43 |
| lifeless | jpich: in fact programs don't have to have any incubated or integrated elements. | 22:43 |
| david-lyle | that's why I initially was thinking separate code bases | 22:43 |
| lifeless | jpich: infra, devstack for instance. | 22:43 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge, yes it should be perfectly doable, as the tuskar part will be hidden by default | 22:43 |
| jpich | Ok! | 22:43 |
| lifeless | jpich: the integrated gate is specifically the set of things that get released every 6 months and their direct deps | 22:43 |
| lifeless | ish | 22:43 |
| lifeless | :) | 22:43 |
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| david-lyle | ok, who wants to own the merge plan? | 22:45 |
| jpich | lifeless: Yes, ok. It just seems programs have had a general set of repos usually that are either all not integrated, or all incubated, or all integrated - to my knowledge | 22:45 |
| lifeless | lsmola_ volunteered on the TripleO side already :) | 22:45 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, i took it from tripleo side, so me? ;-) | 22:45 |
| mrunge | congrats lsmola_ ! | 22:45 |
| * lifeless throws lsmola_ into the lion pit | 22:45 | |
| david-lyle | thanks lsmola | 22:45 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, I will put heads together with mrunge and rdopieralsky to figure this out | 22:46 |
| lblanchard | hahaha | 22:46 |
| lsmola_ | lifeless, hehe | 22:46 |
| mrunge | no, no no | 22:46 |
| david-lyle | bringing mrunge down with you | 22:46 |
| mrunge | ;-) | 22:46 |
| lsmola_ | lol :-) | 22:46 |
| david-lyle | let's see a plan, I'll work on a plan for core-reviewer merge, no-merge, 3 from a company, but only on the second Tuesday logistics | 22:47 |
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| jpich | haha | 22:47 |
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| david-lyle | So, let's just note for the record that we're accepting Tuskar-UI and we're working on the details | 22:48 |
| jomara | +1 to all that including 2ndtuesday | 22:48 |
| lsmola_ | excellent | 22:48 |
| jcoufal | awesome | 22:48 |
| jtomasek | great news | 22:48 |
| david-lyle | Welcome, bring friends :) | 22:48 |
| lsmola_ | :-D | 22:48 |
| ohnoimdead | (thumbsup) | 22:48 |
| mrunge | and beer | 22:48 |
| lblanchard | friends who like to review!! | 22:48 |
| jpich | haha | 22:49 |
| david-lyle | #topic Ceilometer integration (lsmola) | 22:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ceilometer integration (lsmola) (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:49 | |
| jcoufal | lsmola started to get more folks in (teaching his son django already) | 22:49 |
| david-lyle | lsmola_ | 22:49 |
| lblanchard | jcoufal: his son is 3 weeks old, right? | 22:49 |
| mrunge | his son can't even sit. | 22:49 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, given we dont have much time, the agenda sums it pretty good | 22:49 |
| lblanchard | lol | 22:49 |
| lsmola_ | lblanchard, please if you could look on 1. and .2, it would be great | 22:50 |
| lsmola_ | lblanchard, we need to have some great wireframes for that :-) | 22:50 |
| david-lyle | so lsmola_ you do have a bp that depends on a ceilometer bp that is not owned by anyone | 22:50 |
| lblanchard | lsmola: will do | 22:50 |
| jpich | Is it also on the UX AskBot? | 22:50 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, it is | 22:50 |
| david-lyle | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/ceilometer-api-enhancements | 22:50 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, and it should land in I2, that shift this to I3 | 22:50 |
| jcoufal | jpich: there is first version to review | 22:50 |
| * jpich admires the dependency tree | 22:51 | |
| jcoufal | we need to get more focus on that | 22:51 |
| david-lyle | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ceilometer/+spec/statistics-order-by-and-limit-for-grouped-query | 22:51 |
| jpich | Cool! | 22:51 |
| david-lyle | is the ceilo bp | 22:51 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, this one expecially https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ceilometer/+spec/complex-filter-expressions-in-api-queries | 22:51 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, that will bring big changes to ceilometer | 22:51 |
| david-lyle | so, do we need the other ceilo item? | 22:51 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, they are willing to prioritize things we need in Horizon | 22:51 |
| david-lyle | confused, is one replacing the other? | 22:52 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, yeah, but itś not a blocker I guess, we can have non-optimal version just with that one | 22:52 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, the others are more about optimization of queries. With more data i will bomdard the server with queries | 22:53 |
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| david-lyle | since the non-owned one is not likely to land, until someone actually owns it, will you split your bp to reflect the work for each | 22:53 |
| david-lyle | makes release planning a bit easier :) | 22:53 |
| lblanchard | lsmola: I envisioned that Admin users would see a similar Overview page as other users... | 22:53 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, yes, I should change the deps a bit | 22:53 |
| david-lyle | lsmola_: thanks | 22:53 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, things ae changing so fast :-) | 22:54 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, ok, we can go to next | 22:54 |
| david-lyle | #topic update from I18N (amotoki) | 22:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "update from I18N (amotoki) (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:54 | |
| jpich | amotoki can't attend, but the translation update for stable was a success, thanks everyone | 22:55 |
| david-lyle | excellent | 22:55 |
| lsmola_ | lblanchard, yes, could be, though they might be interested in diferent stats. Risght now the overview pages differ | 22:55 |
| jpich | Most patches got merged a bit late but the stable-maint team has agreed it makes sense to have a freeze exception for translations in general, 3 days after the stable freeze | 22:55 |
| david-lyle | thanks to all who provided reviews | 22:55 |
| david-lyle | #topic Open Discussion | 22:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:56 | |
| MaxV | few questions here | 22:56 |
| jpich | This is enough for stable updates which have few strings, the process for new release tbd | 22:56 |
| MaxV | do we start forcing people using angular? | 22:56 |
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| david-lyle | MaxV, I just noticed the Jasmine target got removed from the agenda, apologies | 22:56 |
| lsmola_ | MaxV, I guess only when they want to write javascript libs | 22:56 |
| david-lyle | s/target/topic | 22:56 |
| MaxV | thiswas my second question | 22:57 |
| david-lyle | MaxV: force seems strong | 22:57 |
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| jomara | i think force is reasonable, if the option is "large pile of jquery" vs angular | 22:57 |
| david-lyle | I think there is going to be a bit of time getting most of the existing coder base up to speed on angular | 22:58 |
| jomara | ie, dont let people write new interactionsw ith a bunch of jquery | 22:58 |
| david-lyle | new functionality makes sense, but fixes etc, not so much | 22:58 |
| jomara | ya | 22:58 |
| jtomasek | david-lyle: +1 | 22:58 |
| MaxV | agreed | 22:58 |
| lblanchard | lsmola: agreed…I will look into these both further and we can discuss more this week about designs! | 22:58 |
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| lsmola_ | exactly | 22:58 |
| lsmola_ | lblanchard, excellent, thank you very much | 22:59 |
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| david-lyle | We do have at least two whole views that are primarily javascript | 22:59 |
| jomara | MaxV: were you going to talk about jasmine too? | 22:59 |
| MaxV | my second question was about jasmine | 22:59 |
| david-lyle | I'm not sure forcing a rewrite to augment the network topology screen makes sense either | 22:59 |
| david-lyle | eventually | 22:59 |
| MaxV | to correctly test angular we need a javascript mocking library | 23:00 |
| MaxV | at least | 23:00 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle, agreed, same for the heat topology | 23:00 |
| david-lyle | lsmola_: yes that was the other of the two | 23:00 |
| david-lyle | :) | 23:00 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 23:00 |
| david-lyle | I spent a little time looking into Jasmine, I didn't see a big issue with it | 23:01 |
| david-lyle | Did anyone have any concerns? | 23:01 |
| MaxV | maybe we can keep qunit | 23:01 |
| MaxV | for old things | 23:01 |
| david-lyle | jpich: did you do the qunit implementation? | 23:01 |
| MaxV | and force jasmine on angular testing | 23:01 |
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| ohnoimdead | +1 for jasmine. it's dope. | 23:01 |
| jomara | MaxV: id happily rewrite my tests in jasmine | 23:01 |
| jpich | david-lyle: It was already there when I came on board, I believe | 23:02 |
| david-lyle | jpich: ok | 23:02 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle, as far as I can remember, it's good old code, at least a year old, probably more | 23:02 |
| mrunge | more 1.5 years now | 23:02 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 23:02 |
| ohnoimdead | qunit stuff has been around forever, since we started | 23:03 |
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| mrunge | ohnoimdead, might know it | 23:03 |
| david-lyle | I don't have a problem moving forward then. If we are going to have more javascript then we need to have better testing of it and since we're moving to angular, let's optimize for that | 23:03 |
| mrunge | ha ;-) | 23:03 |
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| MaxV | I propose to keep qunit for old testing | 23:03 |
| mrunge | I'd love to unify all that stuff | 23:03 |
| ohnoimdead | i'm less enthusiastic about angular, but that's a different topic. :p | 23:03 |
| lsmola_ | +1 to have jasmine for angular | 23:03 |
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| david-lyle | alright, let's get the Jasmine patch reviewed and let the testing progress | 23:04 |
| david-lyle | overtime | 23:04 |
| david-lyle | Thanks everyone! | 23:04 |
| jpich | Thanks everyone | 23:04 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, thank you! | 23:04 |
| david-lyle | good to see you ohnoimdead | 23:04 |
| jcoufal | o/ | 23:04 |
| david-lyle | #endmeeting | 23:04 |
| jcoufal | thanks guys | 23:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 10 23:04:57 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:04 |
| jomara | thnaks guys | 23:05 |
| lsmola_ | thanks everyone, have a good night | 23:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-10-22.01.html | 23:05 |
| jtomasek | thanks all | 23:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-10-22.01.txt | 23:05 |
| lblanchard | thanks all! | 23:05 |
| ohnoimdead | thank you! you folks are wonderful! | 23:05 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-10-22.01.log.html | 23:05 |
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