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| Loquacity | #startmeeting DocTeamMeeting | 02:59 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 02:59:55 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Loquacity. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 02:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 02:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 02:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteammeeting' | 02:59 |
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| Loquacity | Here's our Agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 03:00 |
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| Loquacity | so just in case anyone is confused, annegentle and i are alternating docs meetings to try and catch more timezones | 03:01 |
| Loquacity | the new schedule looks like this: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Monthly_doc.2Fweb_team_meeting | 03:01 |
| Loquacity | #topic Action items from last meeting | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from last meeting (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:01 | |
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| Loquacity | it doesn't look as though we have any action items to follow up on | 03:01 |
| Loquacity | #topic Report from the Summit | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Report from the Summit (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:01 | |
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| Loquacity | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2013-November/003252.html | 03:02 |
| Loquacity | annegentle wrote this doc from the summit, which i think she was waiting to hear back from people on | 03:02 |
| Loquacity | specifically, i think you had comments fifieldt? | 03:02 |
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| fifieldt | hi | 03:03 |
| Loquacity | hey :) | 03:03 |
| fifieldt | so, I wasn't quite sure of exactly what the config-reference was going to look like | 03:03 |
| fifieldt | during H it kinda became a bit of a 'dumping ground' | 03:04 |
| Loquacity | ok | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | whereas the initial plan was for something much lighter | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | though, in the email I replied to | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | it seemed to be that the way forward was to Strip All The Things | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | and just have lists of options | 03:04 |
| Loquacity | is that bad? | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | which probably goes too far in that direction | 03:04 |
| Loquacity | ah, ok | 03:05 |
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| Loquacity | it seems as though we might need a dedicated session to discuss that? | 03:05 |
| fifieldt | The example I always use is the RPC section | 03:05 |
| fifieldt | http://docs.openstack.org/havana/config-reference/content/configuring-rpc.html | 03:05 |
| fifieldt | introduction, few notes, tables | 03:05 |
| Loquacity | oh, i looked at this in a review yesterday, i think | 03:05 |
| Loquacity | it *is* a reference guide, though | 03:06 |
| fifieldt | not guide | 03:06 |
| fifieldt | it is a reference | 03:06 |
| fifieldt | not a reference guide | 03:06 |
| Loquacity | ah | 03:06 |
| Loquacity | my bad | 03:06 |
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| Loquacity | ok, that changes things | 03:06 |
| fifieldt | it's the well-worn stapled-together thing that operators use as a look-up | 03:07 |
| Loquacity | yep | 03:07 |
| fifieldt | the guiding principle through it all is - it was supposed to be the damn-simple to maintain book | 03:07 |
| fifieldt | with the hope that the paras around the tables wouldn't change much between releases, if at all | 03:08 |
| fifieldt | and the tables take care of themselves though auto-things | 03:08 |
| Loquacity | yeah, lots of tables, not much in the way of concepts | 03:08 |
| Loquacity | makes sense | 03:08 |
| Loquacity | so what's the proposal? | 03:08 |
| * fifieldt doublechecks the name of the 'other' book | 03:09 | |
| fifieldt | "Cloud Administrator Guide " | 03:09 |
| fifieldt | that's the guide, where the guid-y things should go, IMO | 03:09 |
| Loquacity | yep | 03:09 |
| Loquacity | that's the one i've got open now, actually | 03:10 |
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| Loquacity | ok, so maybe we need something laying this out? | 03:10 |
| fifieldt | the TOC for that one was thrown together very quickly | 03:10 |
| fifieldt | so likely, yes | 03:10 |
| Loquacity | where do overall plans like this usually reside? | 03:10 |
| Loquacity | on the wiki? | 03:10 |
| Loquacity | or do you think we need to discuss on list a little more first? | 03:11 |
| fifieldt | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals with a link to a wiki page | 03:11 |
| fifieldt | it's better to write up a proposal | 03:11 |
| fifieldt | so people can just say "yes" ;) | 03:11 |
| Loquacity | ok, makes sense | 03:11 |
| Loquacity | do you want to kick that off? | 03:11 |
| * fifieldt looks at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-restructure-documentation | 03:11 | |
| fifieldt | I suspect there will be a lot of commonality between that page | 03:12 |
| fifieldt | and whatever we create | 03:12 |
| fifieldt | I was also never happy with the description of the "Cloud Administrator Guide" | 03:12 |
| fifieldt | " Provide guidance to day-to-day cloud administrators about how to perform administrative tasks." | 03:12 |
| Loquacity | yeah, agreed | 03:12 |
| *** galstrom_zzz is now known as galstrom | 03:13 | |
| Loquacity | ok, so let's add an action for you to kick off that proposal | 03:13 |
| Loquacity | and i'll help you out wherever i can | 03:13 |
| Loquacity | ok? | 03:13 |
| fifieldt | I'm unlikely to be able to do anything in coming days | 03:13 |
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| fifieldt | so it depends how soon you want it | 03:13 |
| fifieldt | :) | 03:13 |
| Loquacity | in that case, maybe we should assign it to me? | 03:13 |
| Loquacity | no guarantee i'll get to it quickly either, i'm travelling to texas soon | 03:13 |
| fifieldt | actually | 03:13 |
| Loquacity | but i'm happy to take it | 03:13 |
| fifieldt | I'm just thinking | 03:13 |
| fifieldt | argh | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | naw, my thinking is bad | 03:14 |
| Loquacity | thinking is hard? | 03:14 |
| Loquacity | ;) | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | I was toying with the ideas of a 'first principles' look at things | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | since you were shiny enough | 03:14 |
| Loquacity | that's not insane, i think | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | but it's probably not worth going that far up | 03:14 |
| * fifieldt shrugs | 03:14 | |
| Loquacity | but we can explore that further | 03:14 |
| Loquacity | #action Loquacity to begin working on a proposal for config-reference and cloud admin guide IA | 03:14 |
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| Loquacity | #topic Install Guide | 03:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Install Guide (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:15 | |
| Loquacity | i'm not sure what to say on this | 03:15 |
| fifieldt | based on the meeting log | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | i'm working on some high level IA-type stuff on the install guide now | 03:16 |
| fifieldt | they seemed to make some conclusions in the previous meeting | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | but that is still WIP | 03:16 |
| fifieldt | IA-type ? | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | information architecture | 03:16 |
| fifieldt | ok, that's what I thought, cool | 03:16 |
| fifieldt | tell me more :D | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | :) | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | just skimming the minutes | 03:16 |
| Loquacity | basically the gist was that we need to do an overhaul for icehouse | 03:17 |
| Loquacity | but there are needed improvements before then, we just don't want to do anything too major | 03:17 |
| Loquacity | steve gordon is looking at it too | 03:17 |
| Loquacity | so unless anyone else has comments on that, we can probably move on | 03:18 |
| fifieldt | my only comment | 03:18 |
| fifieldt | is testing :) | 03:18 |
| fifieldt | we need to test :) | 03:18 |
| fifieldt | and I'm glad that we could do some this time | 03:18 |
| Loquacity | yep, agree 100% | 03:18 |
| Loquacity | i'm also having coffee with summer later this week, so we'll probably discuss this | 03:18 |
| fifieldt | yay :) | 03:19 |
| Loquacity | ok, moving on | 03:19 |
| Loquacity | #topic Tom describe more about config ref and restructure for Icehouse | 03:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tom describe more about config ref and restructure for Icehouse (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:19 | |
| Loquacity | so i think we've covered that in the summit discussion | 03:19 |
| fifieldt | yes, indeed | 03:19 |
| fifieldt | unless there's more required? | 03:19 |
| Loquacity | i don't think so | 03:19 |
| fifieldt | cool | 03:19 |
| Loquacity | we have an action, so it's all good | 03:19 |
| Loquacity | #topic Meeting times, office hours | 03:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Meeting times, office hours (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:19 | |
| Loquacity | i don't have much of an opinion on office hours | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | but meetings have obviously been changed | 03:20 |
| * fifieldt checks logs | 03:20 | |
| Loquacity | i updated the wiki to reflect the new meeting schedule: | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | 1st Tuesday, 03:00:00 UTC | 03:20 |
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| Loquacity | 2nd Tuesday, 14:00:00 UTC | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | 3rd Tuesday, 03:00:00 UTC | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | 4th Tuesday, 14:00:00 UTC | 03:20 |
| fifieldt | kewl | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | so i'll be looking after 1st and 3rd tuesdays | 03:20 |
| fifieldt | thank you :) | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | np | 03:20 |
| Loquacity | also note that annegentle has changed the 2nd and 4th tuesdays to 1400 | 03:21 |
| fifieldt | yup | 03:21 |
| Loquacity | that messed a few people up last week | 03:21 |
| * fifieldt is looking forward to when that's 10pm for me | 03:21 | |
| Loquacity | do you think it's worth considering something like this for the office hours too? | 03:21 |
| Loquacity | hehe, yeah, midnight is sucky | 03:22 |
| Loquacity | are the office hours used at all in the other TZ? | 03:22 |
| fifieldt | to be honest, I don't know | 03:22 |
| Loquacity | i like to think we're all fairly available around the clock, between the US contingent and the people in the southern hemisphere | 03:22 |
| fifieldt | indeed | 03:22 |
| fifieldt | if anything | 03:22 |
| fifieldt | I think it'd be cool to have office hours during time zone overlaps | 03:23 |
| Loquacity | so i'm not sure that having specific office hours is very beneficial | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | AU-EU, EU-US, US-AU | 03:23 |
| Loquacity | yeah, that would be wise | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | so that'd be my sole suggestion | 03:23 |
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| Loquacity | ok, maybe annegentle and i can discuss that further when i'm there later this month | 03:23 |
| Loquacity | it's a low prio, i think | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | kk | 03:23 |
| Loquacity | alright, that brings us to ... | 03:23 |
| Loquacity | #topic Open discussion | 03:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:24 | |
| fifieldt | Suggestion: a doc bug day | 03:24 |
| Loquacity | ooh, i saw that | 03:24 |
| Loquacity | yes, i love the idea :) | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | 24 hours of fun | 03:24 |
| Loquacity | i actually wanted to do a docs bootcamp here in brisbane too | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | ooh nice | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | I think for focus the two events should be separated by a bit | 03:24 |
| Loquacity | i agree | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | do you know when you were thinking about BNE? | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | new year? | 03:25 |
| Loquacity | well, anne is proposing one for february | 03:25 |
| Loquacity | i'd want to go to that, and then do one here afterwards | 03:25 |
| Loquacity | possibly linked to pycon | 03:25 |
| fifieldt | oh yes, that is a good idea | 03:25 |
| fifieldt | so July then | 03:25 |
| * fifieldt has to be careful in Feb - OpenStack Tokyo day | 03:25 | |
| Loquacity | august, i think | 03:25 |
| Loquacity | when is that? | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | 13th and 14th of feb | 03:26 |
| Loquacity | ok | 03:26 |
| Loquacity | yeah, haven't heard further on anne's plans for feb yet | 03:26 |
| Loquacity | but will keep my ear to the ground | 03:26 |
| Loquacity | can i add an action for you for the doc bug day? | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | sure! | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | any suggested day/month from you | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | ? | 03:26 |
| Loquacity | #action fifieldt to organise a doc bug day | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | I'm thinking this side of the year | 03:27 |
| Loquacity | well, i'm travelling through to mid-dec | 03:27 |
| Loquacity | so after that would be ideal, although we're running out of year | 03:27 |
| Loquacity | i think i fly back in on the 13th | 03:27 |
| fifieldt | yeah | 03:27 |
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| fifieldt | nick is traveling through the 2nd | 03:27 |
| Loquacity | how much time do you need to organise it? | 03:27 |
| fifieldt | not much time at all | 03:28 |
| Loquacity | is next week too soon? | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | the hardest thing is getting some proposed dates | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | next week is fine | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | if people are free | 03:28 |
| Loquacity | ok, so i'll propose, say 27/28 nov | 03:28 |
| Loquacity | or the week of 16-20 dec | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | ok - I'll make a doodle poll for people to respond | 03:28 |
| Loquacity | ooh, i don't know what that is | 03:29 |
| fifieldt | one moment and you will see | 03:29 |
| fifieldt | anyway | 03:29 |
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| Loquacity | ok :) | 03:29 |
| fifieldt | anything else on the agenda ? :) | 03:29 |
| Loquacity | nope, that's it | 03:29 |
| Loquacity | #endmeeting | 03:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 03:30 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 03:30:08 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 03:30 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-11-19-02.59.html | 03:30 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-11-19-02.59.txt | 03:30 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-11-19-02.59.log.html | 03:30 |
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| Loquacity | hopefully that worked :) | 03:30 |
| fifieldt | yayyy! | 03:30 |
| fifieldt | awesome | 03:30 |
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| nati_ueno | hi | 04:59 |
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| nati_uen_ | hi | 05:00 |
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| nati_ueno | Who's around? | 05:04 |
| tmorin | hi nati | 05:04 |
| nati_ueno | hi tmorin | 05:04 |
| tmorin | i am | 05:04 |
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| nati_ueno | only two guys joining this meeting ? | 05:05 |
| nati_ueno | hm let's wait some min | 05:06 |
| thomas_morin | yes, at least pedro should join | 05:06 |
| nati_ueno | yeah | 05:07 |
| nati_ueno | I sent mail | 05:07 |
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| thomas_morin | nachi: I just checked, the meeting is scheduled for tomorrow, we are not 19/11 on the US west coast yet | 05:21 |
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| thomas_morin | nati: talk to you tomorrow, same place, we can expect to see more people | 05:23 |
| thomas_morin | nait: I'll try to get back to sleep now... ;) | 05:24 |
| thomas_morin | bye | 05:24 |
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| nati_ueno | bye! | 05:30 |
| nati_ueno | Ahhhh | 05:30 |
| nati_ueno | I got i | 05:30 |
| nati_ueno | t | 05:30 |
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| garyk | doron: ping | 14:59 |
| garyk | hope i have the correct time this week :) | 14:59 |
| doron | garyk: hi | 14:59 |
| doron | indeed so ;) | 14:59 |
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| doron | garyk: are you aware of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffEv0PRcrqI ? | 15:00 |
| n0ano | garyk, right time by my calendar | 15:00 |
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| garyk | doron: thank. no, i was not | 15:00 |
| doron | garyk: good one. | 15:00 |
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| garyk | n0ano: welcome back from your holiday | 15:00 |
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| garyk | n0ano: you want to run the meeting or should I? | 15:01 |
| n0ano | Why don't you do today, I can pick up starting next week. | 15:01 |
| garyk | n0ano: ok, sure np. | 15:01 |
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| garyk | everyone ready to start | 15:02 |
| PaulMurray | hi all | 15:02 |
| garyk | PaulMurray: hi | 15:02 |
| toan-tran | hi | 15:02 |
| garyk | #startmeeting scheduler | 15:02 |
| doron | hi | 15:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 15:02:47 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is garyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 15:02 |
| jgallard | hi all | 15:02 |
| n0ano | o/ | 15:03 |
| garyk | hi, sorry about missing the meeting last week. combination of the jetlag and clock changes. | 15:03 |
| toan-tran | sorry last week I got the wrong time | 15:03 |
| toan-tran | it's changed into winter time | 15:03 |
| garyk | yeah, i guess that we all got it mixed up a lillte | 15:03 |
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| garyk | i was thinking that we can go over action items from the summit. | 15:04 |
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| garyk | in addition to this are there other topics that people would like to bring up? | 15:04 |
| n0ano | I guess the question is what are the ARs to go over, do you have a list? | 15:05 |
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| garyk | at the moment we do not have a lite, but a list would be a good idea | 15:05 |
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| garyk | i can update regarding the instance groups and the resource tracking | 15:05 |
| n0ano | I'm curious about Boris' memcache changes | 15:06 |
| doron | +1 on memcached | 15:06 |
| garyk | boris-42: you around? | 15:06 |
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| garyk | regarding the instance groups | 15:06 |
| garyk | 1. it was decided that the new api's that we proposed were too complicated | 15:07 |
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| garyk | 2. it was decided that we should complete the proposed api's for havana (for v2 and v3) | 15:07 |
| garyk | this gives us a good basis to start working on | 15:07 |
| n0ano | do we have time to complete the API for Havana? I though new development was closed | 15:08 |
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| garyk | for havana we missed the cut due to the fact that we did not have v3 support | 15:08 |
| garyk | we plane to get this done in the coming weeks. there were also some loose ends regarding the v2 api | 15:08 |
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| n0ano | so is the plan to do that work for Icehouse instead?\ | 15:09 |
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| garyk | in short, yes, we have the time to complete the api. i certainly hope that we get it in by I1 | 15:09 |
| garyk | yes. plan is to do it in I | 15:09 |
| n0ano | makes sense, is there any other design needed or are you just at the implementation phase | 15:09 |
| garyk | At the moment we have anti-affinity scheduling in review and are in the process of thinking about host capabilities | 15:09 |
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| garyk | the ball is in our court to get down and do the implementations | 15:10 |
| MikeSpreitzer1 | hi | 15:10 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer1: hi | 15:10 |
| MikeSpreitzer1 | Do we have an agenda? | 15:10 |
| garyk | so i hope that in the near future we will have something up for review regarding the api (the cli and scheduler part are ready for review) | 15:10 |
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| garyk | MikeSpreitzer1: basically to go over summit action items etc. no formal agenda | 15:11 |
| n0ano | sounds like it would be good to do the review for all at the same time - api, cli and scheduler - rather than doing it piecemeal | 15:11 |
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| garyk | In parallel Yathi will be working on his scheduling changes | 15:12 |
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| MikeSpreitzer2 | I just had a connectivity glitch, may have missed a remark before the one about Yathi | 15:12 |
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| garyk | n0ano: we have all of the building blocks and hope just to get them in review soon | 15:12 |
| n0ano | OK, sounds good | 15:12 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer1: basically Yathi will be working on his 'smart resource placement' pluggable driver | 15:13 |
| MikeSpreitzer2 | n0ano: I would like to follow up on your question at the summit about scalability | 15:13 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer2: i guess that this is a good time to talk about that. | 15:14 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer1, in what way, I'm hoping that Bors' memcache changes will address a large part of the current scalability, I'd like to see where that goes | 15:14 |
| n0ano | s/Bors/Boris | 15:14 |
| garyk | it would be nice if boris-42 could chime in regarding their performance developments. | 15:14 |
| MikeSpreitzer2 | Yes, I very much agree, Boris' suggestion is getting way too little love | 15:14 |
| MikeSpreitzer2 | I also wanted to talk about the goal posts (hoping to nail them down so they do not move) | 15:14 |
| n0ano | love should be coming, as I understand it the patch is working, they just have to create some peformance numbers | 15:15 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer1, which goal posts? | 15:15 |
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| MikeSpreitzer2 | for scalability | 15:15 |
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| toan-tran | well, i'm curious so see the number as well | 15:15 |
| n0ano | aah, interesting question, typically that has always been - a good as possible | 15:15 |
| toan-tran | as I understand, LP solving is rather a costly | 15:15 |
| n0ano | s/a good/as good | 15:15 |
| garyk | i think that we are all curious about the numbers. i am not sure how many schedulers thay are using in thier test case. but i understand that they simulate 100's of nodes | 15:16 |
| MikeSpreitzer2 | "as good as possible" begs the question of "possible" — which begs the question of other requirements | 15:16 |
| garyk | toan-tran: what is LP? | 15:16 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer2, exactly | 15:16 |
| toan-tran | sorry, i'm talking about solver scheduler | 15:16 |
| toan-tran | miss up a little | 15:17 |
| toan-tran | mess up | 15:17 |
| garyk | toan-tran: no problem. | 15:17 |
| garyk | i think that is work in progress and hopefully when Yathi is back from his vacation there will be more information on that. | 15:17 |
| MikeSpreitzer2 | OK, so this is what I was afraid of, no extrinsic "good enough" mark | 15:17 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer2, sort of, currently we're good for about ~200 nodes, the goal at least is to do ~1000 nodes, would like to do ~10000 | 15:18 |
| n0ano | I don't know if those are acceptable goals or not but they make sense to me | 15:18 |
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| toan-tran | 200 nodes on simulation or real test? and if simulation which simulator? | 15:19 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Just had another connectivity glitch, missed everything after the first numbers from n0ano | 15:19 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Glad to have a number | 15:19 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer2, sort of, currently we're good for about ~200 nodes, the goal at least is to do ~1000 nodes, would like to do ~10000 | 15:19 |
| garyk | i think that rally (and may be wrong here) is a testing environment when one can simulate load | 15:19 |
| n0ano | I don't know if those are acceptable goals or not but they make sense to me | 15:19 |
| * n0ano loves cut/paste | 15:20 | |
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| n0ano | toan-tran, the ~200 nodes comes from real world usage, not simulation | 15:20 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | So my group currently thinks our solver can do about 1K hosts, is unlikely to do 10K hosts well enough. | 15:20 |
| toan-tran | nice | 15:20 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: i think that there are a number of different issues at hand | 15:21 |
| garyk | 1. is the interactions with the database | 15:21 |
| MikeSpreitzer | I have started reading the Omega paper, which seems to be recommending multiple solvers with optimistic concurrency control as a way to scale beyond the ability of a single solver | 15:21 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Yes, DB interaction is crucial | 15:21 |
| n0ano | I belive that Boris is claiming his memcache should be able to handle ~10000 which is why I `really` want to see his real perf numbers | 15:21 |
| garyk | 2. each scheduler being able to have a real time picture of the current situation | 15:21 |
| MikeSpreitzer | In our current code the DB is more of a bottleneck than the solver | 15:21 |
| garyk | 3. placement complexity | 15:22 |
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| garyk | yes, i agree. the db is the major bottleneck | 15:22 |
| garyk | i think that is where boris-42's solution comes into place. | 15:22 |
| MikeSpreitzer | That is why I raised the question of whether we could use NOSQL instead of SQL, it could be a major advance in DB efficiency. | 15:22 |
| toan-tran | Mike: sorry, which paper are you taling about? | 15:22 |
| garyk | i am not sure if it just touches on the problem or if it actually provides a real solution | 15:22 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | This year's EuroSys, a paper from Google folks on their Borg replacement called Omega | 15:23 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: can you please post alink if you have one | 15:23 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Someone recommended it at the summit | 15:23 |
| n0ano | also, what about the session where we talked about decisions that were `good enough`, not perfect, another way to scale up | 15:23 |
| MikeSpreitzer | That's inherent in all our solver based approaches | 15:23 |
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| doron | MikeSpreitzer: boris-42's suggestion was to replace db with memcache which can be sync'ed bwith several instances | 15:23 |
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| doron | this should resolve the db issue. | 15:23 |
| MikeSpreitzer | But only part of DB usage is that | 15:24 |
| doron | well IIRC resource tracker should report to the scheduler | 15:24 |
| MikeSpreitzer | For the Omega paper, just Google "Google Omega", it's the first hit | 15:24 |
| doron | and basically this should remove the need for a db | 15:24 |
| toan-tran | I have a remark on the implemented solver scheduler | 15:25 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | We do have a system with multiple moving parts regardless, so there has to be a DB for some level of coordination. | 15:25 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer, this link | 15:25 |
| n0ano | #link http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Feurosys2013.tudos.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2Fpaper%2FSchwarzkopf.pdf&ei=zIKLUqXUHIi2yAG4noDIAQ&usg=AFQjCNGy7xy2leYjXnSPgAJckQKX0qxung&sig2=i3S8xPB05-_bbzI8FxHDsQ&bvm=bv.56643336,d.aWc | 15:25 |
| toan-tran | it calls DB (RAMwiegher) once for getting the cost | 15:25 |
| doron | MikeSpreitzer: I agree, but stats are voletile | 15:25 |
| toan-tran | however, it does not reflex the Load Balacing policy as RAMWeigher doe | 15:26 |
| toan-tran | does | 15:26 |
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| toan-tran | basically the objectif functions cannot be linear | 15:27 |
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| toan-tran | basically the objective function cannot be linear | 15:28 |
| doron | guys, this is boris-42's BP: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/no-db-scheduler | 15:28 |
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| garyk | i hope that next week boris-42 could join us to elaborate on thier developments | 15:29 |
| doron | +1 | 15:29 |
| boris-42 | garyk I am in vacation=) | 15:29 |
| boris-42 | garyk yes I will joing | 15:30 |
| boris-42 | garyk we are going to finish implementation | 15:30 |
| garyk | ok, enjoy the vacation. chat to you next week | 15:30 |
| garyk | in addition to this yathi will hopefully be here next week to also discuss the constraints scheduling (i think that is what it is being called). | 15:31 |
| garyk | PaulMurray: was there any intersting you want to add from your sessions? | 15:31 |
| toan-tran | garyk: +1 | 15:31 |
| PaulMurray | garyk sorry got distracted | 15:31 |
| PaulMurray | do you want me to update? | 15:32 |
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| garyk | PaulMurray: np. just wanted to know if you wanted to add anything from the session that you did on the scheduling at the summit | 15:32 |
| PaulMurray | the main point was sorting out the order of work between me, Lianhau and boris | 15:32 |
| PaulMurray | Lianhau was doing scheduler metrics | 15:33 |
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| PaulMurray | and was ready to go, so I think several of his patches are merged now | 15:33 |
| MikeSpreitzer | (I'd like to queue up a little discussion of the ML thread "Introducing the new OpenStack service forContainers") | 15:33 |
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| PaulMurray | I will add extensibility to the resource tracking | 15:33 |
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| PaulMurray | FYI - there was a discussion about boris' work there too. | 15:34 |
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| PaulMurray | In case the wrong idea came across - I am all for it - just didn't | 15:34 |
| garyk | sounds good. | 15:34 |
| n0ano | funny how all roads come back to Boris :-) | 15:35 |
| PaulMurray | all roads come back to the db! | 15:35 |
| garyk | true | 15:35 |
| PaulMurray | that's the problem | 15:35 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, +1 | 15:35 |
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| PaulMurray | unless there are questions there is little more to add right now | 15:36 |
| PaulMurray | just getting code done. | 15:36 |
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| toan-tran | I have a question on the scheduler & API if you don't mind | 15:36 |
| alaski | btw, I'm around and catching up on the meeting. Got mixed up with the time change | 15:36 |
| PaulMurray | ure | 15:36 |
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| PaulMurray | sure | 15:36 |
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| garyk | ok, thanks for the update | 15:36 |
| garyk | alaski: hi. also wanted to ask if you have updates regarding your scheduling sessions | 15:37 |
| PaulMurray | toan-tran - go ahead | 15:37 |
| toan-tran | I'm just curious where we're targetting with solver scheduler & instance group API | 15:37 |
| toan-tran | Nova, Heat , or something else? | 15:37 |
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| garyk | toan-tran: good question. | 15:38 |
| toan-tran | Boris also proposed separating scheduler from nova & cinder | 15:38 |
| toan-tran | can we corporate? | 15:38 |
| garyk | ideally we would have liked the scheduler API to be able to define the who application. This was deemed to complicated at this time | 15:38 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Containers may also lead to separating scheduler | 15:38 |
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| alaski | I didn't have any scheduling sessions, but was at each of them and have opinions which I think are captured in etherpads overall | 15:38 |
| doron | btw, neutron also need a scheduler... | 15:39 |
| toan-tran | ok neutron ... | 15:39 |
| garyk | The solver scheduler will make use of the metadata key value pairs. | 15:39 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Will containers and VMs compete for the same hosts? If so, they need a common scheduler | 15:39 |
| n0ano | neutron needs a scheduler?? that seems odd | 15:39 |
| doron | n0ano: yep | 15:39 |
| doron | they use 'service' vms for routing | 15:39 |
| doron | and need to provide hints to control the placment | 15:40 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Some networks also have some degrees of freedom in choosing routes | 15:40 |
| n0ano | yet another push for Scheduler as a Service | 15:40 |
| garyk | n0ano: the scheduler for neutron is pretty simple - just needs to select which dhcp or l3 node to use for the specific support | 15:40 |
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| garyk | at the moment it is round robin | 15:40 |
| doron | I was in a session they discussed it. | 15:40 |
| alaski | MikeSpreitzer: re: containers, it can be done many different ways, but most likely it wil be done based on capabilities since they're different 'hypervisors' | 15:40 |
| garyk | what we would like to do is add the ability to provide network proximity. | 15:40 |
| n0ano | I missed that, sounds like they're trying to get overly complex | 15:40 |
| doron | regardless of complexity the need for SaaS is gaining momentum | 15:40 |
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| doron | SaaS- Scheduling as a service.. | 15:41 |
| doron | so some of the summit ideas where very true | 15:41 |
| doron | in this context. | 15:41 |
| toan-tran | ok so now we need a scheduler as a completely independent component | 15:41 |
| doron | true, but noi immediatly | 15:42 |
| toan-tran | do we need an API like instance group API for it | 15:42 |
| toan-tran | or RPC? | 15:42 |
| n0ano | toan-tran, that's the implication, I haven't bought into the need yet | 15:42 |
| doron | fising scale should be a closer goal | 15:42 |
| MikeSpreitzer | Let me ask again very specifically: will containers and VMs compete for the same hosts? (Regardless of whether they use different hypervisors on those hosts) | 15:42 |
| doron | then we can start discussing saas. | 15:42 |
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| doron | MikeSpreitzer: isn't it a matter of a use case? | 15:43 |
| MikeSpreitzer | doron: ? | 15:43 |
| alaski | MikeSpreitzer: with the current work a host will have either containers or VMs, not both | 15:43 |
| ekarlso | when's the plan to deliver a alpha or beta ? | 15:43 |
| doron | MikeSpreitzer: in some places you'd separate them an in other setups you allow such competition | 15:43 |
| ekarlso | oops | 15:43 |
| ekarlso | wrong chan ;p | 15:44 |
| doron | MikeSpreitzer: and I'm not representing LXC ;) | 15:44 |
| MikeSpreitzer | So I'll take alaski's answer for now | 15:44 |
| MikeSpreitzer | alaski: and you mean that it is the cloud provider's job to manually allocate hosts to those two roles, right? | 15:44 |
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| toan-tran | i'm ok if we set up in Nova to work with group of VMs | 15:45 |
| alaski | toan-tran: I agree with n0ano, it's a bit early to look at a separate scheduler. But there was talk of using RPC from projects to that scheduler, but I'm not convinced of that approach. I'm sure it will be heavily discussed at a later time | 15:45 |
| alaski | MikeSpreitzer: yes | 15:45 |
| toan-tran | however, if we introducing new API then we have to plan far ahead | 15:45 |
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| * doron recalls the Docker session, which suggested such a separation | 15:46 | |
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| garyk | alaski: i agree. it is too early to discuss these issues. regardin tge rpc, not sure if we would want nova to speak to cinder with rpc when there is a well deifned REST api | 15:46 |
| toan-tran | the API targets the nova only or plans to Neutron after? | 15:46 |
| MikeSpreitzer | garyk: why do you say "nova speak to cinder with rpc"? I did not get that from alaski's remark | 15:47 |
| garyk | toan-tran: at the moment we are only targeting nova. once we get the basic instance groups in then we can start to build on | 15:47 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: at the moment nova uses the cinder client to interface with cinder. this is rest based. | 15:47 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | garyk: connection to alaski's remark? | 15:48 |
| garyk | rpc would be like having a backdoor. it may be the long term solution but at the moment seems like a hack. | 15:48 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | (still confused) | 15:48 |
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| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: sorry i do not understand. was alaski refering to an external scheduler or the nova one? | 15:48 |
| toan-tran | garyk: i agree that we aim to close target | 15:48 |
| alaski | garyk: I was referring to an external one | 15:49 |
| garyk | alaski: ok, thanks for the clarification | 15:49 |
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| toan-tran | but we're creating an API before designing an architecture ! and that's not good | 15:49 |
| toan-tran | if we get the group into nova | 15:50 |
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| toan-tran | and the API into v3 | 15:50 |
| toan-tran | then once the question of separte scheduler does out | 15:50 |
| toan-tran | we have to redraw the design | 15:50 |
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| garyk | toan-tran: i think that we should focus on what we have at the moment. | 15:50 |
| toan-tran | recreating the API once again to include neutron & cinder | 15:51 |
| MikeSpreitzer | I see two architectures with an external scheduler. 1: optional thing that is upstream from Nova and maybe some other services too. 2: required element that every service calls under the covers. | 15:51 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | 2: s/every/some/ | 15:51 |
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| n0ano | option 2 will be harder to push through, I'd prefer option 1 if those are my only choices | 15:51 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | Do you see other choices? | 15:52 |
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| toan-tran | Mike: so Nova (API) => Scheduler => Nova again? | 15:52 |
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| n0ano | option 3 - no external scheduler service | 15:52 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | t-t: that's #2 | 15:52 |
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| toan-tran | Mike: when what's #1 | 15:53 |
| MikeSpreitzer | n0ano: does option three do anything cross service? | 15:53 |
| toan-tran | ? | 15:53 |
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| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer, nope, each service does it's own scheduling | 15:53 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | #1: (multi-service scheduler) -> [Heat ->] (Nova || Cinder || ..) | 15:53 |
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| toan-tran | Mike: oh, i'm thinking like Heat -> scheduler -> nova ... | 15:54 |
| toan-tran | :) | 15:54 |
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| garyk | n0ano: the cross service scheduling is where things become of value. for example we want a cinder volume to be close to to the nova instance | 15:54 |
| n0ano | I put option 3 out for completeness, make sure we know what were are deciding upon | 15:54 |
| garyk | that is ciritical for performance | 15:54 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | Well, orchestration is downstream from joint decision making | 15:54 |
| garyk | if one is running a best effort cloud then cool. | 15:54 |
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| garyk | but in order to provide a competitive service one needs to be able to provide some added value | 15:55 |
| n0ano | I've always been confused, exactly what does orchestration do and how does it interact with scheduling | 15:55 |
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| toan-tran | n0no: orchestration of workflow | 15:56 |
| toan-tran | it does not do scheduling (lcoation of VMs) | 15:56 |
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| toan-tran | it only decides which VM should be initiated first | 15:56 |
| MikeSpreitzer | I was surprised at the claim that "orchestration means everything to everyone". It thought it was agreed to mean calling the various service APIs in the right order to get things done. | 15:56 |
| garyk | i think that the orchestration and scheduling are mutually exclusive. but that is my opinion | 15:56 |
| MikeSpreitzer | .. specifically to handle dependencies between resources | 15:57 |
| alaski | orchestration is a very overloaded term. it's used to talk about workflows within a service or creation of resources across services | 15:57 |
| MikeSpreitzer | create/update/delete time dependencies | 15:57 |
| garyk | alaski: agreed | 15:57 |
| toan-tran | alsaki: +1 | 15:57 |
| n0ano | garyk, sounds like they are more orthogonal than mutually exclusive but yes, not related | 15:57 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | yes, orthogonal | 15:57 |
| * n0ano loves the term orthogonal | 15:58 | |
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| MikeSpreitzer | except that it makes no sense to do joint decision making downstream from orchestration | 15:58 |
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| garyk | yes, that is a better way of describing it | 15:58 |
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| toan-tran | in my understanding, the orchestrator deicdes which goes first: scheduling, configuration, rollback, etc | 15:58 |
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| MikeSpreitzer | So, technically, "independent" | 15:58 |
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| garyk | it looks like we are at the end of the hour | 15:59 |
| garyk | hopefully next week boris-42 will be here for the performance part | 15:59 |
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| garyk | and yathi for the scheuling part | 15:59 |
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| MikeSpreitzer1 | lost some stuff in another connectivity glitch | 15:59 |
| MikeSpreitzer1 | but we must be done now | 15:59 |
| MikeSpreitzer1 | I'll read the log | 15:59 |
| garyk | i am going to hand the baton back to n0ano and next week he'll run the meeting | 15:59 |
| n0ano | good discussion, let's continue this next week. | 15:59 |
| n0ano | garyk, great, now you guys will have me to beat up upon :-) | 16:00 |
| doron | thanks guys | 16:00 |
| n0ano | tnx all | 16:00 |
| garyk | so chat to you guys next week | 16:00 |
| toan-tran | thanks, bye | 16:00 |
| alaski | thanks | 16:00 |
| garyk | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 16:00:38 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-11-19-15.02.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-11-19-15.02.txt | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-11-19-15.02.log.html | 16:00 |
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| primemin1sterp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 16:00:58 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is primemin1sterp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:01 |
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| primemin1sterp | hi everyone | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | we'll give the others a minute or 2 | 16:01 |
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| alexpilotti | hey there | 16:03 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: hey now | 16:03 |
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| primeministerp | pnavarro: hi pedro | 16:03 |
| pnavarro | hi ! | 16:03 |
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| primeministerp | hi everyone | 16:04 |
| primeministerp | figured we'd run though some updates | 16:04 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: you had 2 that you wanted to address correct | 16:04 |
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| ociuhandu | hi all | 16:04 |
| alexpilotti | yep | 16:04 |
| alexpilotti | cloudbase-init updates | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: hey tavi | 16:05 |
| alexpilotti | and ceilometer fixes | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | #topic cloudbase-init | 16:05 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: .. there were updates to cloudbase-init? | 16:06 |
| alexpilotti | sure | 16:06 |
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| alexpilotti | so, especially given all the recent work on heat templates | 16:07 |
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| alexpilotti | we worked on cloudbase-init to smooth a couple of issues that we had | 16:07 |
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| alexpilotti | in particular we got rid of the extra reboot required when you change host name | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | the trick is that we run cloudbase-init twice | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | once during the specialize phase of sysprep | 16:08 |
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| alexpilotti | and the second time as a service, starting it in setupcomplete.cmd | 16:08 |
| alexpilotti | this way we solved also all the race consitions that users were randomly experiencing | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | due to teh service being started while WMI was still not configured | 16:09 |
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| alexpilotti | the next feature we're gonan add is WinRM support | 16:09 |
| alexpilotti | we need it for CI testing of cloudbase-init | 16:10 |
| alexpilotti | and for users that want to access the VMs w/o RDP | 16:10 |
| alexpilotti | ok, that's it | 16:10 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: great thx | 16:10 |
| alexpilotti | AH, and we updated the 2012 R2 eval VMs :-) | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | #topic 2012 R2 eval VMs | 16:11 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: do you have a url? | 16:11 |
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| alexpilotti | #link http://www.cloudbase.it/ws2012r2/ | 16:12 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: great thx | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ceilometer fixes? | 16:12 |
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| alexpilotti | yep | 16:13 |
| primeministerp | #topic ceilometer fixes | 16:13 |
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| alexpilotti | So we had a few bug fixes for ceilometer | 16:14 |
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| alexpilotti | they are all up for review / reviewed | 16:14 |
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| primeministerp | great | 16:14 |
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| alexpilotti | IBBM is doing a great job in the review process | 16:15 |
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| alexpilotti | we should IMO thing about trying to move the scheduling to one where the guys from IBM China could join | 16:15 |
| alexpilotti | s/IBBM/IBM/ :-) | 16:15 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: we can discuss | 16:16 |
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| alexpilotti | so everything is good and well | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ok | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | #topic ci update | 16:16 |
| primeministerp | so I've put a push for additonal hw and I'm waiting to hear back | 16:17 |
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| primeministerp | however the first 2 racks of hyperv nodes should be ready by end of day thur | 16:17 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: we still need to get you connected btw | 16:18 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: let's touch base before you leave | 16:18 |
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| alexpilotti | ok | 16:19 |
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| primeministerp | our zuul endpoint is also up, I still have the keys to connect and have verified I can get a data stream | 16:19 |
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| primeministerp | additoinally In terms of overally windows python bits, i've done some work w/ the chococolatey folks so that we can use coocolatey as the package provider | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | this will get us to pix | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | er pip | 16:20 |
| primeministerp | additionally with a mingw package I had Rob rebuild for me | 16:21 |
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| primeministerp | we can hopefully use pip for the rest | 16:21 |
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| primeministerp | ociuhandu: I also used your notes | 16:22 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: on the mingw stuff | 16:22 |
| primeministerp | that's all I have for now | 16:23 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ociuhandu anything to add | 16:23 |
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| russellb | i have something ... hyper-v-rdp-console blueprint status | 16:23 |
| primeministerp | russellb: sure | 16:23 |
| russellb | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/hyper-v-rdp-console | 16:23 |
| primeministerp | o | 16:23 |
| primeministerp | that reminded me | 16:23 |
| russellb | just looking for user docs | 16:23 |
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| russellb | and then i'll get on the code review | 16:24 |
| alexpilotti | russellb: hi | 16:24 |
| primeministerp | russellb: sure thing | 16:24 |
| alexpilotti | russellb: sure, it's on top of my list | 16:24 |
| russellb | awesome | 16:24 |
| primeministerp | so | 16:24 |
| russellb | just wanted to make sure you knew what i was waiting on | 16:24 |
| primeministerp | I have some ironic stuff to talk about it | 16:24 |
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| primeministerp | mordred: ping | 16:25 |
| mordred | primeministerp: I was just talking about you in a meeting yesterday | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | russellb: I'm still flying around this week, next one will be pure hacking :-) | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | mordred: i took a stab at it | 16:25 |
| mordred | primeministerp: woot! | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | mordred: I need to rename some stuff | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | and test | 16:25 |
| russellb | alexpilotti: ok | 16:25 |
| mordred | NobodyCam: ping ^^ | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | russellb: so I should be done will all the docs and such | 16:25 |
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| mordred | NobodyCam: primeministerp is adding windows support to ironic | 16:25 |
| primeministerp | mordred: however i've been swamped w/ other things | 16:25 |
| NobodyCam | ok huh | 16:25 |
| mordred | NobodyCam: have you guys met? | 16:25 |
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| primeministerp | so | 16:26 |
| primeministerp | as of now I have this | 16:26 |
| primeministerp | if you want to look | 16:26 |
| primeministerp | https://github.com/ppouliot/ironic | 16:26 |
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| primeministerp | i added a template | 16:26 |
| NobodyCam | ya | 16:26 |
| primeministerp | as well as a method for creating only 1 partition | 16:26 |
| NobodyCam | at the summit | 16:26 |
| NobodyCam | good morning primeministerp | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | NobodyCam: hi there | 16:27 |
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| mordred | sweet. I'm excited to see that work! I just emailed that link around to a few people so that people who are less scatterbrained than me might help keep up with it :) | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | mordred: perfect | 16:27 |
| primeministerp | mordred: I want to remove the "window"s | 16:28 |
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| primeministerp | and keep it generic | 16:28 |
| primeministerp | also | 16:28 |
| primeministerp | I need to find out the version of syslinux | 16:28 |
| primeministerp | because i'm currently using proxydhcp | 16:28 |
| primeministerp | and I think i had to do something different in my case | 16:28 |
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| primeministerp | all it means is the template would change | 16:29 |
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| primeministerp | but the process is the same | 16:29 |
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| primeministerp | mordred: so I have person who just got back, i'm going to have him try it out | 16:30 |
| primeministerp | mordred: as my cycles are thin | 16:30 |
| primeministerp | mordred: as soon i can confirm it works I plan on commiting the bits | 16:30 |
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| primeministerp | mordred: NobodyCam however if you both want to take a look and at least let me know if my thinking is correct, i'd appreciate it. | 16:31 |
| mordred | primeministerp: awesome. well do! | 16:32 |
| primeministerp | mordred: perfecto | 16:32 |
| NobodyCam | sure, mordred did you include in that link email? | 16:32 |
| primeministerp | #topic ironic windows support | 16:34 |
| primeministerp | #link https://github.com/ppouliot/ironic | 16:34 |
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| primeministerp | ok | 16:34 |
| primeministerp | anyone have anything else | 16:34 |
| NobodyCam | awesome TY | 16:34 |
| primeministerp | NobodyCam: i'll probably be following up w/ you later | 16:34 |
| NobodyCam | :) sure | 16:34 |
| primeministerp | ok then, I'm ending it | 16:35 |
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| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | hmm | 16:35 |
| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:35 |
| NobodyCam | where is openstack user | 16:36 |
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| luis_fdez | hello | 17:01 |
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| EmilienM | luis_fdez: i think you failed the timing, time has changed :) | 17:15 |
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| stevemar-droid | o/ | 17:59 |
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| marekd | helo | 17:59 |
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| fabiog | hi | 18:00 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
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| atiwari | hi | 18:00 |
| stevemar-droid | \o | 18:00 |
| dolphm | ayoung: morganfainberg: gyee: bknudson: o/ | 18:01 |
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| gyee | \o\ | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | gyee: i think you broke your arm | 18:01 |
| gyee | haha | 18:01 |
| dolphm | gyee: or it's attached to your head | 18:01 |
| ayoung | \.o./ | 18:01 |
| topol | I made it on time this week!!! | 18:01 |
| dolphm | gyee: either way, see a doctor | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | o/\/ | 18:01 |
| devlaps | morning all! | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | topol: we're having a meeting this week! | 18:01 |
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| gyee | you should see morganfainberg | 18:01 |
| topol | we had one without you last week! | 18:01 |
| dolphm | i "cancelled" last weeks meeting due to time change + post-conference naps | 18:01 |
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| topol | thanks for letting the rest of us know... | 18:02 |
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| topol | :-) | 18:02 |
| dolphm | topol: i put it on the agenda. | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | dolphm: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. Use #endmeeting first. | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 18:02:59 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-11-19-16.00.html | 18:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-11-19-16.00.txt | 18:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-11-19-16.00.log.html | 18:03 |
| dolphm | lol goodbye hyperv | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 18:03:14 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:03 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:03 |
| ayoung | all of our chatter will be at the end of their logs | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | LOL | 18:03 |
| ayoung | dolphm, will be #2 in most lines spoken | 18:03 |
| dolphm | primeministerp: just ended your meeting :) | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | anywho | 18:03 |
| topol | dolphm cleaning up after others... | 18:04 |
| dolphm | i'm going to ignore the agenda order a bit and leave bigger topics for the end... | 18:04 |
| dolphm | so first up-- | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | #topic Deprecation of keystone.middleware.auth_token | 18:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecation of keystone.middleware.auth_token (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:04 | |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: o/ | 18:04 |
| bknudson | I thought it was deprecated. | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | i see the markings in the etherpad now | 18:04 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56143/ | 18:04 |
| dolphm | bknudson: it's deprecated | 18:04 |
| joesavak | \o | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | i'll unblock the removal review and we're good | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | but we're not using the new deprecated() call on import | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | i just wasn't 100% sure. | 18:05 |
| bknudson | I think it's time to remove it. | 18:05 |
| dolphm | and i don't think it can be completely removed until the end of icehouse, given the summit outcome? | 18:05 |
| gyee | the time has come | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | was it deprecated during grizzly dev? | 18:05 |
| dolphm | if so, then rm it | 18:05 |
| gyee | +1 | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg | it was moved ot keystoneclient in grizzly | 18:06 |
| dolphm | oh, then done | 18:06 |
| dolphm | kill it! | 18:06 |
| bknudson | would be nice to have a blueprint for this one. | 18:06 |
| dolphm | #topic Update keystoneclient requirements failed in grenade | 18:06 |
| bknudson | or but | 18:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update keystoneclient requirements failed in grenade (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:06 | |
| jamielennox | +1 | 18:06 |
| dolphm | bknudson: interesting idea | 18:06 |
| ayoung | dolphm, if people are tracking master and have not updated that particualr one, this will be a wakeup call, but an easy one for them to adjust to | 18:06 |
| bknudson | just so we advertise that it's removed. | 18:06 |
| dolphm | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/grenade/+bug/1252057 | 18:06 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1252057 in grenade "keystoneclient requirements update fails grenade" [Undecided,New] | 18:06 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56490/ | 18:06 |
| topol | its like 1 file in a crisis | 18:06 |
| ayoung | bknudson, how a bout a generic deprecation blueprint? | 18:07 |
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| bknudson | ayoung: I like the general deprecation blueprint. | 18:07 |
| stevemar-droid | Ayoung, That would be good | 18:07 |
| ayoung | #action bknudson to file blueprint as catch-all for deprecations | 18:07 |
| topol | question on deprecation. If I wanted to take a todo to deprecate stats do all I need to do is add the deprecated decorator evrywhere or do I need new test cases too? | 18:08 |
| * ayoung knows how to delegate! | 18:08 | |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | topol, oooh | 18:08 |
| dolphm | topol: dstanek: thoughts on testing for deprecations? | 18:08 |
| ayoung | topol, what if the tests failed on any deprecation warnings? | 18:08 |
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| topol | just asking, not recommending | 18:09 |
| ayoung | topol, too late | 18:09 |
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| dstanek | i don't know that testing that a method is being deprecated is all that valuable | 18:09 |
| ayoung | #action topol to make tests fail on deprecation warnings | 18:09 |
| ayoung | :) | 18:09 |
| dolphm | ayoung: we can move in that direction on a more granular basis (fatally error on items that have been deprecated for a release or two) | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | you can't make all test always fail on deprecation warnings. | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | you'd need to specifiy the release older-than to make it fail. | 18:09 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, sure you can | 18:09 |
| dolphm | ayoung: no, you can't | 18:09 |
| ayoung | you can't deprecate without providing an alternative | 18:10 |
| ayoung | ah...cux of testing the told code, right | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | the only reason i can see that being useful is if we want to maintain some sort of list of what is deprecated in the code and have a test to make sure they really are | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | yep | 18:10 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: you still keep the tests the exercise the old code | 18:10 |
| jamielennox | otherwise i don't think i'd bother | 18:10 |
| dolphm | dstanek: ++ | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | i want to work with dkranz and leverage the same mechanism as the exception tracking in gate to do a similar thing for tracking deprecated methods/functions | 18:10 |
| gyee | its deprecated people, moving on | 18:11 |
| bknudson | your tests exercising the old code can check that a deprecation message was output | 18:11 |
| topol | so net is we can just start shoving deprecated on the things you want to deprecate? Should we split those up? | 18:11 |
| bknudson | topol: split what up? | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | topol, ther eis a review for V2 controllers being deprecated, that is basically the approach. | 18:12 |
| ayoung | topol, so, while you don't need new tests for the old methods, you do need new methods, and @deprecated tells what to use in palce of the old method | 18:12 |
| topol | at the summit wasnt there a huge list of agreed things to deprecate? | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/50491/ | 18:12 |
| dolphm | topol: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-keystone-internal-apis | 18:12 |
| ayoung | so one way or anothter you are going to need a new test, either to continue testing the old code, or to check the new | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, while it's deprecated you need to continue testing the old code and check the new | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | until it's removed that is. | 18:13 |
| dolphm | i think we've covered deprecation pretty well for now :) let's move on to bknudson's grenade failure... | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | then the old test can go away | 18:13 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, we are in violent agreement | 18:13 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:13 |
| ayoung | problem with grenade failures is then you need to call in EOD | 18:13 |
| dolphm | bknudson: care to explain/advertise the issue with grenade? | 18:13 |
| bknudson | I added this topic because updating the requirements was a bit of a challenge recently | 18:13 |
| bknudson | and still doesn't work... because of this grenade issue. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | well, it fails in grenade... not sure if grenade is the problem. | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, granade for master hasn't been bumped to stable/havana | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | which is likely the issue here | 18:14 |
| bknudson | ok, so maybe this is a non-issue. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | wasn't sure if opening a bug to grenade was the correct thing to do. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | it's just failing and I don't know what the problem is. | 18:15 |
| jamielennox | what is the collision with? having the requirements unversioned in keystoneclient is wrong but should make it easier in this case | 18:15 |
| dolphm | dtroyer: ping ^ | 18:15 |
| ayoung | bknudson, looks like glance needs a patch | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | i saw something in #openstack-infra about grenade not being bumped yet. also it's impacting nova's collapse migrations work | 18:15 |
| bknudson | it complains about a mismatch of requirements. | 18:15 |
| ayoung | why did they lock to that version of iso8601 | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | error: Installed distribution iso8601 0.1.4 conflicts with requirement iso8601>=0.1.8 | 18:15 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there should be a bug referenced by the commit to pin in openstack/requirements | 18:16 |
| jamielennox | but who requested 0.1.4 because this seems like there bug | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | iso8601 has (as i recall)... a source of random bugs. | 18:16 |
| bknudson | is it the "old" (stable/havana) that needs the update? | 18:16 |
| dolphm | ayoung: and a bug to unpin | 18:16 |
| ayoung | dolphm, looking now | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | havana https://github.com/openstack/requirements/blob/stable/havana/global-requirements.txt#L23 | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | uses 0.1.8 | 18:16 |
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| morganfainberg | at least it should be according to global reqs | 18:17 |
| ayoung | https://bugs.launchpad.net/glance/+bug/961590 | 18:17 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 961590 in glance "pip glance-2012.1~rc1 missing dependency iso8601" [Low,Fix released] | 18:17 |
| jamielennox | that's from a whie ago | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | 8160ae293383ec600c05fd2e4b38164bca7704c4 | 18:18 |
| ayoung | Fixes bug: 1242501 | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | https://github.com/openstack/requirements/commit/31c5f35b369ae531d09280a584cf3d80e9ae1eb7 | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | iso8601>=0.1.7 "parse_date()" could successfully handle date string | 18:19 |
| ayoung | which only have date part like YYYY-MM-DD, it caused two Glance test | 18:19 |
| ayoung | cases failure. | 18:19 |
| ayoung | guessing there is a "not" missing in that commit message | 18:19 |
| dolphm | now i remember this conversation on list -- i was in favor of bumping to 0.1.8 :P | 18:19 |
| bknudson | I think it was 0.1.7 had a bug that it didn't work anymore | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, that is my understanding | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | s/is/was | 18:20 |
| ayoung | ah, wait...is the lower version locked in Nova? | 18:20 |
| dstanek | so is this just an issue of another project having conflicting requirements? | 18:20 |
| bknudson | this is a tricky kind of problem because it involves so many different parts... grenade/keystoneclient/glance/stable/master... | 18:20 |
| jamielennox | it seems like, so this is the bug of whoever locks to 0.1.4 | 18:21 |
| ayoung | bknudson, nah, we need them all to be in sync on dates | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, nope nova is >=0.1.4 | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | so, 0.8.1 should be acceptable | 18:21 |
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| bknudson | there's no requirements.txt in glance stable/grizzly? http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/glance/tree/?h=stable/grizzly | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, tools/pip-requires ? | 18:22 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: thanks, it's iso8601<=0.1.4 in there. | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, yep. | 18:22 |
| dolphm | bknudson: in where? | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/glance/tree/tools/pip-requires?h=stable/grizzly#n19 | 18:23 |
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| dolphm | why are we worried about grizzly here? | 18:23 |
| ayoung | dolphm, grenade | 18:23 |
| dolphm | grizzly -> master migration? | 18:23 |
| bknudson | so maybe it's just a matter of grenade needs to use havana and not master. | 18:23 |
| dolphm | bknudson: sounds right | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg | once grenade bumps to stable/havana my guess is this will go away | 18:23 |
| ayoung | upgrade downgrade, guessing they are using the starting point being the stable branch? | 18:24 |
| bknudson | I'll update the bug. | 18:24 |
| dolphm | bknudson: there's not a bug to move to stable/havana https://bugs.launchpad.net/grenade/+bugs | 18:24 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: how did you know about the grenade issue? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | bknudson: maybe revise the title of your bug with the underlying issue? | 18:25 |
| bknudson | that it wasn't using stable/havana? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | bknudson: discussed on list, i think | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i lurk in in #openstack-infra and i think something on the ML | 18:25 |
| bknudson | ok, that answers my questions about this. | 18:26 |
| bknudson | thanks! | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57066/ | 18:26 |
| dolphm | ( bknudson- i think i can help you after the meeting on "assignments-doesn't-check-identity" -- mind if i skip that for the meeting, or save it for open discussion? ) | 18:26 |
| bknudson | we can skip that one. | 18:27 |
| ayoung | Reminder that I1 is going to sneak up on us. | 18:27 |
| dolphm | woo! i think this next one is going to eat the next 30 minutes | 18:27 |
| bknudson | also, don't see henrynash. | 18:27 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ two weeks! | 18:27 |
| dolphm | #topic Tenantless role assignments | 18:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tenantless role assignments (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:27 | |
| shardy | o/ | 18:27 |
| gyee | dolphm, is the detail schedule out yet? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, oooooooh | 18:27 |
| dolphm | so first point -- not global role assignments | 18:27 |
| ayoung | Roles are always scoped | 18:28 |
| dolphm | gyee: yes, pay more attention to things https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | either to a Domain or a Project | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: so this is a new scope | 18:28 |
| dolphm | and it's explicitly scoped to a a lack of context | 18:28 |
| ayoung | dolphm, "service scoped" will make atiwari happy | 18:28 |
| dolphm | not *any* context | 18:28 |
| bknudson | turkey / football / reviews. | 18:28 |
| gyee | k, looks like it just got updated | 18:28 |
| atiwari | I think all the identity roles does not require a tenant | 18:28 |
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| dstanek | what does the scope apply to if it's not global? | 18:29 |
| dolphm | looking at a bunch of API's in openstack, they all fall into one of two categories... | 18:29 |
| ayoung | shardy, this is your use case. Care to explain, or to link to an explanation | 18:29 |
| dolphm | 1) it's an inheritenly multi-tenant operation (create compute) | 18:29 |
| bknudson | one oddity is if you have admin role on any project then you have admin auth all over keystone | 18:29 |
| dolphm | 2) it's an inherently tenant-less operation (create domain) | 18:29 |
| dolphm | or service catalog management | 18:30 |
| shardy | ayoung: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/heat-management-api | 18:30 |
| dolphm | or some/all of heat's proposed administrative api | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | so, to do project-management admin you'd still need to rescope to that project? | 18:30 |
| shardy | ayoung: tl;dr, folks want a way to list all stacks owned by heat, not scoped to a tenant | 18:30 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i'd like that to be the result, yes | 18:30 |
| ayoung | "stacks?" | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i like the idea | 18:30 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, i really dislike the "admin here admin everywhere" setup | 18:31 |
| shardy | ayoung: stacks are what users of heat create | 18:31 |
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| dolphm | so, the only way to consume a tenant-less assignment (that i'm in favor of) would be to generate an unscoped token -- which becomes an explicit operation to gain authorization for tenant-less operations | 18:31 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i think we all do! | 18:31 |
| shardy | ayoung: the point is, service deployers want a way of getting global information, like number of resources in a certain state, ie globally | 18:31 |
| dolphm | this would be a way to fix "admin"ness | 18:31 |
| bknudson | you can assign roles for unscoped tokens? | 18:31 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's the idea here | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i don't think so at the moment. that is the proposal | 18:32 |
| atiwari | or scope a role to service and for tenant less that wd be scoped to Keystone | 18:32 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ++ | 18:32 |
| ayoung | dolphm, so to date we have domains, and we have projects. Domains own projects. We have the Default domain, which has been suggested as the nominee for the "admin" domain. But, would having an explicit admin domain solve this problem? | 18:32 |
| bknudson | a token scoped to a service could have roles ? | 18:33 |
| ayoung | "admin" would mean "admin role on the default domain" or "admin domain" | 18:33 |
| bknudson | like heat service has admin role | 18:33 |
| ayoung | atiwari, Keystone is a service | 18:33 |
| dolphm | ayoung: abusing the "default" domain in that way is insanely terrible | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: so yes, this would be a more explicit approach that avoids that hack/abuse | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, if we made the "admin domain" implicit, as in a code construct not a DB construct, i could see that as viable. but i think you get more flexabvility with unscoped roles. | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dolphm, "default" probablty, but having an explict admin domain as a way to collect up the service resources is a valid use of the current abstraction | 18:34 |
| ayoung | roles are always scoped, we just need to determine to what are they scoped in this case. | 18:34 |
| ayoung | Either an existing abstraction or a new one | 18:34 |
| ayoung | atiwari has been pushing for service scoped roles for a while | 18:34 |
| shardy | ayoung: would that require all services to know about domains though? | 18:34 |
| atiwari | ayoung, yes but it does not have any roles | 18:34 |
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| morganfainberg | shardy, if done properly, perhaps not | 18:35 |
| gyee | unscoped roles are essentially scoped to keystone service, as atiwari mentioned | 18:35 |
| atiwari | if we create keystone specific role and make those roles assign to domain only | 18:35 |
| gyee | just like unscoped tokens | 18:35 |
| henrynash | (henry-nash) joint (sorry to be late) | 18:35 |
| atiwari | Heat issue can be addressed | 18:35 |
| ayoung | gyee, so scope them to a service, and make keystone that service | 18:35 |
| henrynash | joined, even | 18:35 |
| dolphm | i don't think this proposal is new -- this is the valid use case for "global roles", but those deeply ingrained in the "multitenant architecture" train of thought find "global authorization" to be an offensive over step | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | but...still think services should be owned by a domain | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, welcome. | 18:35 |
| dolphm | hopefully i'm just wording that use case differently and narrowing the scope of application as much as possible | 18:35 |
| ayoung | "admin domain" which, if not set, would be the "default domain" | 18:35 |
| dstanek | i see how this helps the services act in a global way, but how does it help the "admin"ness issue? | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, you wouldn't have admin powers in this context unles you were using a service scoped role vs. a domain/project role. project/domain admin could only act on project/domain | 18:36 |
| bknudson | we'll need something to set in the policy.json. | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, that would be part of this change in scope capability | 18:36 |
| dolphm | i'd also like to kill the terminology of "unscoped tokens" in favor of "tenantless tokens" along the way -- there is and has always been a scope to "unscoped" tokens | 18:37 |
| dolphm | "tenantless" makes that a bit more clear | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | projectless? domainless? | 18:37 |
| topol | so how does this make things simple for shardy's use case? | 18:37 |
| ayoung | projects are generic containers. Domains are containers of projects. Services, and even "role definitions" are resources, and should be put into a namespace. Samething as we insit on with out python code | 18:37 |
| atiwari | ayoung, service owned by domain on a project | 18:37 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: projectless implies domain-scoped, and vice versa to me -- but i'm open to alternative suggestions | 18:37 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: thinking in terms of traditional tenancy led me to "tenantless" | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, maybe unscoped = service scoped. always scoped tokens now. | 18:38 |
| atiwari | by keystone is little different it can not be owned by a domain | 18:38 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: regardless of what your deployment considers to be a "tenant" (per domain or per project) | 18:38 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, and implicitly, on keystone unscoped == scoped to keystone | 18:38 |
| gyee | unscoped = keystone-scoped | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yes. | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, +++ exactly | 18:38 |
| ayoung | so, just be clear, theser are "service scoped role assignments" but atiwari 's proposal goes further | 18:39 |
| shardy | topol: If a request context doesnt' contain a request context, and the user has a special admin-ish role, we allow them to get data not filtered by tenant | 18:39 |
| ayoung | so... | 18:39 |
| shardy | topol: sorry doesn't contain a project in the context | 18:39 |
| ayoung | role definitions should be scoped to other roles, and should be managed resources | 18:39 |
| atiwari | ayoung, lets not messup with role assignment | 18:39 |
| ayoung | ie | 18:39 |
| gyee | ayoung, atiwari's proposal solved *service lifecycle management* use case | 18:39 |
| ayoung | atiwari, we need to address it | 18:39 |
| bknudson | does the service (via auth_token_middleware) need to know that this is a service-scoped token? | 18:39 |
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| topol | what is the special admin-ish role? | 18:40 |
| atiwari | but let role derive the service | 18:40 |
| ayoung | atiwari, that doesn't work | 18:40 |
| atiwari | why? | 18:40 |
| dolphm | bknudson: yes | 18:40 |
| topol | shardy sounds like the mob is moving to doing this with a service scoped token? | 18:40 |
| shardy | topol: some role you create and put in the heat config file | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | that implies that a role is always per service, and that breaks all the existing roles | 18:40 |
| dolphm | bknudson: it wouldn't provide a X-PROJECT-* or X-DOMAIN-* but there would still be X-ROLES | 18:40 |
| shardy | topol: that would also work | 18:40 |
| ayoung | atiwari, we hashed this out... | 18:40 |
| ayoung | roles are 1st class objects already | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ah for external services to consume service scoped | 18:41 |
| dolphm | i.e. heat! | 18:41 |
| ayoung | we make it such that some container (I really don't care which) owns a role definition, and we provide for nesting of role definitions | 18:41 |
| gyee | ayoung, atiwari's proposal is backward-compatible | 18:41 |
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| ayoung | gyee, not as it was origianll written it wasnt | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, roles all the way down. | 18:41 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, pretty muich | 18:41 |
| ayoung | bascially, role-defs need a namespace | 18:42 |
| gyee | existing roles will be migrated to keystone namespace | 18:42 |
| ayoung | but we don't need to inject yet another abstraction | 18:42 |
| ayoung | gyee, nope | 18:42 |
| atiwari | ayoung, but it can not be managed by service deployer | 18:42 |
| ayoung | that does not work | 18:42 |
| dolphm | gyee: then you break everyone | 18:42 |
| ayoung | thos roles are "project" focused, not "keystone" focused" | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i'm fine with that approach. i don't want another domain / project grouping mechanism. roles can contain roles and it's logical. | 18:42 |
| gyee | dolphm, no, this is the way we migrated the existing resource to the *default* domain when we introduced domain | 18:42 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, that is what I am proposing | 18:42 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, more vehement agreement! | 18:43 |
| ayoung | namespaceing roles to services is only one view of them, and it only makes sense in the use cases atiwari is looking to implement, but I would not say that his issue is a general problem in Openstack. | 18:43 |
| topol | so ayoung, net it out. how do we do this without breaking everyhting? | 18:43 |
| henrynash | ayoung: but is that solving the problem that antiwar is trying to solve…which is you want a new service (that is not relate to an existing one) to be able to create roles that it and only it will consume (vis its policy file)? | 18:43 |
| dolphm | ayoung: then where is it a problem? | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, if that service has a role grouping, sure? | 18:44 |
| ayoung | dolphm, for openstack right now, a role is implicitly multi-service | 18:44 |
| gyee | ayoung, atiwari is solving service lifecycle management use case | 18:44 |
| gyee | for the second time :) | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash provided policy enforcement can provide that i think it would work. | 18:45 |
| ayoung | _member_ is used implicitly for all sercvices wherea user needs access to aa project's resources | 18:45 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i'd say that pretty explicit, considering nothing about authorization is bound to a particular service | 18:45 |
| atiwari | yes and that seems to me a general issue | 18:45 |
| atiwari | :) | 18:45 |
| ayoung | we are not going to say " noav_memeber, glance_memeber...etc | 18:45 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: _member_ is an explicit representation of v2 default tenancy | 18:45 |
| ayoung | Keystone cares nothing about this | 18:45 |
| ayoung | dolphm, and we can break things up more granularly, but thus far, we have ben careful not to impose on the implementoars view of things | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | but _member_ is scoped to project, not to service | 18:46 |
| henrynash | is the "role grouping" proposal (as opposed to the role service model) documented anywhere? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | henrynash, I'm keeping it in the same BP | 18:46 |
| henrynash | ayoung: ok | 18:46 |
| ayoung | no reason to have two competing ones, as I think this solves atiwari 's use cases | 18:46 |
| ayoung | it is just the more general solution | 18:47 |
| ayoung | so...we have two unmanaged resources right now: services and roles...well, more than that, but lets start there | 18:47 |
| ayoung | who can add a new service? Who can add a new role? Keystone admin | 18:47 |
| dolphm | ayoung: right, because _member_ is a representation of default tenancy -- not anything service-specific | 18:47 |
| atiwari | ayoung, can you add your idea in etherpad ? | 18:47 |
| ayoung | but, atiwari has the use case where many more services are going to be registered | 18:48 |
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| gyee | yes, AaaS for example | 18:48 |
| ayoung | and for each service, it needs to be able to define its own roles | 18:48 |
| ayoung | NP | 18:48 |
| atiwari | yes, may be non Openstack service | 18:48 |
| ayoung | make a namespace for each service | 18:48 |
| ayoung | but...don't force that namespace to be the service | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, the way i see it is keystone scoped admin can add services. adding a role to an service would be in the services namspace? | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, so keep the namespace and service as separate but parallel | 18:49 |
| ayoung | services get roles, but so do projects etc | 18:49 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, that is what is forming in my head. | 18:49 |
| dolphm | ayoung: services already define their own roles by defining their own authorization policy which converts user attributes into available capabilities | 18:49 |
| ayoung | dolphm, yeah, bascially, but they don't then go and register those roels in keystone yet, that is what is missing | 18:49 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I'm OK with the roles being namespaced, but even two different glance servers might have different role sets | 18:50 |
| shardy | ayoung: surely that's just an install-time thing in most cases? | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think new services need to be added by a keystone-service admin scoped role (yes there is a bootstrapping issue) | 18:50 |
| ayoung | shardy, absolutely install time. | 18:50 |
| atiwari | morganfainberg, that is a dependency issue | 18:50 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, we can create the bootstrap service-admin role at service creation | 18:51 |
| atiwari | keystone should be out of hook | 18:51 |
| ayoung | so lets not lock ourselves into saying that the namespace exactly equals the service | 18:51 |
| ayoung | cuz that is very rigid | 18:51 |
| gyee | same way we do default project, with the _member_ assignment | 18:51 |
| dolphm | ayoung: "but they don't then go and register those roels in keystone" which is one reason why it was a mistake to make roles first class objects | 18:51 |
| ayoung | Create a new service, get a role that has the same name as that service by default? I'm fine with that | 18:51 |
| ayoung | then that role serves as the namespace for all roles for that service | 18:51 |
| ayoung | dolphm, nah, in reality people need that | 18:52 |
| ayoung | you have to have an enumeration | 18:52 |
| ayoung | the implementation was a good first step | 18:52 |
| ayoung | we just need a way to namespace roles, and to delegate the administration of the roles | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: you can still enumerate strings | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: which is all anyone cares about with roles | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: the ID is useless, even auth_token reflects that | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dolphm, but you don't want to enumerate all strings on all role assignements. | 18:53 |
| atiwari | roles should be registered in keystone for assignments | 18:53 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, dolphm, are we arguing normalization vs non-normalized here? | 18:53 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ? i'm saying a role is nothing more than a string | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I know you feeel buyers remorse about creating the role enumeration abstraction, but I think it is a needed documentation | 18:53 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there's no relevant metadata to a role entity | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dolphm, so the use case atiwari has is interesting, in that he wantss to be able to rename or even mve sets of roles | 18:54 |
| ayoung | so...roles as names becomes more like the regions thing | 18:54 |
| ayoung | the roel assignment will have an ID, but you can change the name and all of the assignemtnes get updated | 18:54 |
| atiwari | dolphm, you are correct but there should be some management involved with role too and you can not do that until you name space it to service | 18:54 |
| ayoung | say we create a role named glance | 18:55 |
| dolphm | i would be totally cool if PUT /v3/users/{user_id}/projects/{project_id}/roles/{role_name} created a new role automatically if it didn't exist with id={role_name}, name={role_name} | 18:55 |
| ayoung | and under that glance/id | 18:55 |
| ayoung | then realize that glance/id should have been really under swift, and been called swift/moderator | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, if we do that i would use something like <role>.<role> (e.g. glance.member) nomenclature. | 18:55 |
| atiwari | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/service-scoped-role-definition has the real issue we need to resolve | 18:55 |
| ayoung | all people that have that role will be updated when you move the id /change the role definition | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, either dots or slashes or slashdot | 18:56 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's not interesting at all, because services can already do that by changing their policy.json | 18:56 |
| ayoung | ...---... | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | .././.././///.. | 18:56 |
| ayoung | dolphm, no, they can only change what will be matched | 18:56 |
| gyee | testing | 18:56 |
| gyee | thought we are having keyboard issue | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i think the biggest win to have a structure is if you want to revoke a role completely. if it's just strings in metadata it's expensive to remove that role from all users in a service. | 18:57 |
| ayoung | atiwari, so I am in strong favor of your requirement, I just don't want to make the mistake of locking it to the "service" abstraction for the namespace. Cool? | 18:57 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: although it won't be strings in metadata with the assignment table change….should be one SQL command | 18:58 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: eek, we didn't consider 'delete role' in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-token-revocation | 18:58 |
| atiwari | ayoung, as I mentioned it is not locking | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, yeah. | 18:58 |
| atiwari | anyone service can have Admin roles | 18:58 |
| ayoung | service scoped role should be a supported use case, but the abstraction is "role namespace" | 18:58 |
| dolphm | at least, maybe not very well | 18:58 |
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| atiwari | no one can stop them | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, oh i don't think we did. | 18:59 |
| topol | um, kinda getting lost. So how do we solve shardys use case? | 18:59 |
| ayoung | topol, the question for shardy 's case is "what is the implicit scope" | 18:59 |
| ayoung | what scope does a "satack" live within? | 18:59 |
| ayoung | stack | 18:59 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there is no "implicit scope" in his use case | 18:59 |
| henrynash | ayoung: so I could be persuaded if I understand the additional problems that level of generic abstraction gets us | 19:00 |
| shardy | ayoung: All user requests are tenant scoped, but these management requests wouldn't be scoped to anything | 19:00 |
| ayoung | dolphm, there is "always" implicit scope. | 19:00 |
| ayoung | lets make it explicit | 19:00 |
| gyee | lets call it what it is, global roles | 19:00 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's the idea of tenantless role assignments | 19:00 |
| dolphm | gyee: it's not a global role at all - read the blueprint | 19:00 |
| shardy | ayoung: or, it's scoped to the service, as it's a heat service adminstrator action | 19:00 |
| ayoung | gyee, it is never "global" cuz the world is so big. I think it is "scoped to this openstack deployment" maybe, but then we are already ignoring prior art | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | shardy, that would be a good approach actually. | 19:00 |
| dolphm | time's up! | 19:00 |
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| ayoung | whe I startedo n Keystone, admin was supposed to be scoped to the "admin" project | 19:01 |
| ayoung | somehow that got lost | 19:01 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:01 |
| ayoung | we didn't have domains | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 19:01:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-11-19-18.03.html | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-11-19-18.03.txt | 19:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-11-19-18.03.log.html | 19:01 |
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| clarkb | infra meeting time? | 19:01 |
| fungi | i believe it is | 19:01 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
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| fungi | jeblair: did you want to chair, or take a pass? | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | clarkb, we could talk more about keystone if you guys don't want to :P >.> | 19:01 |
| pabelanger | just in time | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | morganfainberg: no no we got this :) | 19:02 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | fungi: hi | 19:02 |
| fungi | mordred: around? | 19:03 |
| jeblair | fungi: i can do it, with your help, i think. :) | 19:03 |
| fungi | full agenda, so we should probably get started | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:03 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 19:03:49 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:03 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-12-19.03.html | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| jeblair | #action jeblair move tarballs.o.o and include 50gb space for heat/trove images | 19:05 |
| jeblair | clarkb: etherpad? | 19:05 |
| clarkb | etherpad-dev is dead, didn't get to etherpad.o.o yet. Plan to kill it post meeting | 19:05 |
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| clarkb | that work kept getting bumped for more important things over the week :/ | 19:05 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: what are the things you want to double check before killing? | 19:06 |
| clarkb | jeblair: that the db backups properly overlap | 19:06 |
| jeblair | clarkb: (and more specifically, anything you need help/coordination with) | 19:06 |
| clarkb | so that I don't lose any potentially useful data | 19:06 |
| clarkb | I shouldn't need help with that | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | cool | 19:07 |
| jeblair | #topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| hub_cap | hey. nothing to report here. still getting caught up w/ trove | 19:07 |
| hub_cap | going to touch base in the next few days tho regarding resuming progress :) | 19:08 |
| jeblair | ok. makes sense, given the schedule of the past couple weeks. | 19:08 |
| jeblair | hub_cap: sounds good! | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | #topic Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) | 19:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:08 | |
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| pleia2 | working through some basics with dprince and derekh, nothing to report on the infra side at the moment though | 19:09 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #topic Wsme / pecan testing (sdague, dhellman) | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Wsme / pecan testing (sdague, dhellman) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| jeblair | sdague: might be busy/afk today? | 19:10 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:10 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: ping | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I do have an updated from the d-g side though | 19:11 |
| fungi | all week i think sdague said | 19:11 |
| dhellmann | hi | 19:11 |
| clarkb | to get the havana periodic/bitrot jobs in I have started my refactoring of the d-g jobs | 19:11 |
| clarkb | I am trying to do one small step at a time for my sanity and for reviewers' sanity | 19:11 |
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| fungi | there was also a suggestion i think that sqlalchemy-migrate might ought to get the same love as pecan and wsme as far as dependency gating goes? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | but I think a path towards having better d-g job templates is emerging which should make the wsme jobs easy | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | we are trying really hard to get rid of sqlalchemy-migrate | 19:12 |
| fungi | that sounds like a better solution anyway ;) | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | we have https://review.openstack.org/#/c/54333/ open for running tox tests for pecan to gate against wsme, ceilometer, and ironic | 19:12 |
| mordred | well, we are - but I think that adding pecan/wsme like gating to it would be good, based on the recent breakage | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | ok, I wasn't aware of any breakage | 19:13 |
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| mordred | s-m made a release and it broke things :) | 19:13 |
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| dhellmann | more testing is better, I was just trying to help avoid extra work | 19:13 |
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| anteaya | mordred: s-m? | 19:14 |
| clarkb | if the JJB job refactor ends up where I would like to have it end up it may not be a whole lot of extra work | 19:14 |
| jeblair | anteaya: sqlalchemy-migrate | 19:14 |
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| anteaya | k | 19:14 |
| jeblair | clarkb: does the jjb refactor conflict with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/54333/5 ? | 19:15 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: it shouldn't I am talking about the d-g jobs specifically | 19:15 |
| jeblair | clarkb: k | 19:15 |
| clarkb | since they have grown very unweildy and need better templating | 19:15 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: so your change would make it easier to add full devstack testing for wsme, which is additional to the tox jobs in 54333 | 19:16 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:16 |
| jeblair | cool, makes sense | 19:16 |
| jeblair | end-of-topic? | 19:17 |
| * dhellmann has nothing to add | 19:17 | |
| jeblair | dhellmann: thanks | 19:17 |
| * mordred thins refactor is great | 19:17 | |
| jeblair | clarkb: is etherpad still a separate topic, or already covered? | 19:17 |
| clarkb | jeblair: covered | 19:17 |
| jeblair | mordred: thin refactors are the best | 19:17 |
| jeblair | #topic Retiring https://github.com/openstack-ci | 19:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Retiring https://github.com/openstack-ci (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:17 | |
| jeblair | who wanted to talk about this? | 19:18 |
| fungi | we talked about it,m but wanted to get your input too | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | someone stumbled upon it recently and it was confusing | 19:18 |
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| pleia2 | want to at least see about deleting publications and gerrit-trigger-plugin | 19:18 |
| pleia2 | or close the whole thing down | 19:19 |
| jeblair | pleia2: i think there is more history in publications that need to be pushed into infra/pub | 19:19 |
| clarkb | or, add a dummy project with a README that says go to opensatck-infra instead | 19:19 |
| jeblair | clarkb: like https://github.com/openstack-ci/moved-to-openstack-infra | 19:19 |
| fungi | clarkb: that's already there | 19:19 |
| clarkb | ah | 19:19 |
| jeblair | pleia2: the existing historical publications need to be pushed and tagged so they show up | 19:19 |
| jeblair | pleia2: then i think publications can go away | 19:19 |
| pleia2 | ok | 19:20 |
| jeblair | that leaves gerrit-trigger-plugin | 19:20 |
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| fungi | jeblair: i thought we retained the history for pubs and then cleaned it, so the master branch still has those commits, they just need tags | 19:20 |
| fungi | or better, separating into branches | 19:20 |
| fungi | first | 19:20 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, i think to be compatible with the new system, we need to make some new commits that move each pub into a top level and then tag those | 19:21 |
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| jeblair | gerrit-trigger-plugin is a genuine fork; i'm not sure if all our changes were upstreamed | 19:22 |
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| mordred | I don't believe they were | 19:22 |
| jeblair | i think we need to figure out the status of that, and decide whether it's a useful historical artifact | 19:22 |
| fungi | so it sounds like we have a couple bugs/action items out of this topic... branchify/tag the old pubs, and decide the fate of g-t-p | 19:23 |
| jeblair | yep | 19:23 |
| jeblair | i'm not in a position to volunteer for those right now, but will certainly do publications if no one gets to it first. | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | I could use some practice with tag/branch fun if someone will be available to answer questions as I go | 19:24 |
| fungi | pleia2: i can help you on that | 19:24 |
| clarkb | pleia2: happy to | 19:24 |
| pleia2 | ok cool, action me for digging into publications then | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #action pleia2 add historical publications tags | 19:24 |
| jeblair | pleia2: thanks! | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | #action jeblair file bug about cleaning up gerrit-git-prep repo | 19:25 |
| jeblair | gah | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #action jeblair file bug about cleaning up gerrit-trigger-plugin | 19:25 |
| jeblair | #topic Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:25 | |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: ping | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | nothing interesting to report atm | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | is it ok to make a job to build images using savanna-image-elements and publish them to tarballs.o.o? | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | just to clarify | 19:26 |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: absolutely; i believe trove will need to do something similar | 19:26 |
| jeblair | mordred, hub_cap: ^ | 19:26 |
| mordred | yah | 19:26 |
| mordred | that's correct | 19:26 |
| mordred | we'd like to generalize that | 19:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yep, we talked about this need with hub_cap at summit | 19:26 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | and eventually it'll be great torun integration tests in this images... | 19:27 |
| ruhe | SergeyLukjanov, would it be possible to run Savanna integration tests on those images before they get published? | 19:27 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ruhe, we can publish master and release images I think | 19:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and eventually add integration tests to the gate pipeline | 19:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | when will achieve 'hadoop vs. nested virt.' | 19:28 |
| fungi | similar to how we do branch-tip, pre-release and release tarballs i expect | 19:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, nothing to add from my side, still hope to start creating CRs this week | 19:29 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, yep, it should work ok | 19:29 |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: ok cool, thanks | 19:30 |
| jeblair | #topic Goodbye Folsom (ttx, clarkb, fungi) | 19:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Goodbye Folsom (ttx, clarkb, fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:30 | |
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| fungi | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-stable-maint/2013-November/001723.html | 19:30 |
| fungi | i've officially eol'd the integrated projects | 19:30 |
| mordred | woot | 19:30 |
| pleia2 | \o/ | 19:30 |
| fungi | still need to know what we're supposed to do (if anything) with things like devstack, grenade, oslo-i, manuals, tempest, reqs | 19:30 |
| jeblair | yaaay! | 19:30 |
| jeblair | fungi: kill them all | 19:31 |
| clarkb | with fire! | 19:31 |
| fungi | they have stable/folsom branches. tag then delete, same as the rest? | 19:31 |
| jeblair | fungi: i believe that is the correct thing to do. note that many of them will have significant trouble landing patches to those branches now. :) | 19:31 |
| fungi | and the topic more properly should have been goodbye folsom, hello havana since clarkb worked on getting the new stable/havana jobs in last week | 19:32 |
| clarkb | definitely reqs, devstack and tempest | 19:32 |
| clarkb | since we can't effectively test them on folsom anymore | 19:32 |
| clarkb | oh and grenade, might as well do them all | 19:32 |
| fungi | clarkb: i approved your job templating last night and it seems to have worked | 19:32 |
| clarkb | yes we have periodic/bitrot jobs for havana now and changes to d-g are tested against havana and grizzly as well as master | 19:33 |
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| fungi | though dprince's fgrenade change is still grinding in the gate of doom | 19:33 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/57066 | 19:33 |
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| fungi | (to move the base for master tests to havana instead of grizzly) | 19:34 |
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| jeblair | fungi, clarkb, dprince: thanks for this! | 19:34 |
| jeblair | #topic Jenkins 1.540 upgrade (zaro, clarkb) | 19:34 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Jenkins 1.540 upgrade (zaro, clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:34 | |
| dprince | fungi: I am actually a bit perplexed by my grenade failure there. | 19:35 |
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| dprince | fungi: can take that offline w/ sdague/dtroyer perhaps though | 19:35 |
| fungi | dprince: i suspect it's just the volume of tempest tests being run against d-g coupled with the nondeterminism in the gate right now | 19:35 |
| zaro | the reason we want to upgrade jenkins is that there was a major fix to reduce number of threads by 75% | 19:36 |
| sdague | dprince, there is a grenade patch that needs to land as well for that to work | 19:36 |
| clarkb | and with recent jenkins trouble, we figure it is worth a shot to upgrade and run jenkins that doesn't have so much overhead | 19:36 |
| sdague | maurosr was working on it, I don't know it's status | 19:36 |
| anteaya | sdague: hello | 19:36 |
| zaro | clarkb has latest jenkins on jenkins-dev.o.p | 19:36 |
| dprince | fungi: thanks, sdague: can you point me to it... or in the right direction? | 19:36 |
| clarkb | I upgraded jenkins-dev yesterday, it seems to be fine but the jenkins test script in config is very old d-g and old zuul oriented | 19:36 |
| * maurosr reading | 19:37 | |
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| fungi | and the release notes for new jenkins mention a lot of churn in parts of the api we use, i think | 19:37 |
| clarkb | jeblair: fungi: mordred: any opinions on how we should test jenkins-dev (they upgraded the ssh-slaves and credentials plugins that are bundled with jenkins and changed some of the permissions around node creation/update/delete) | 19:37 |
| mordred | oy. that sounds like fun | 19:37 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i think the api calls it exercises should still be about the same, right? add/remove nodes, etc... | 19:37 |
| clarkb | jeblair: possibly. they actual calls are made in the zuul and d-g source code | 19:38 |
| sdague | maurosr, this is the patch that takes the version specific upgrade scripts into that separate directory, instead of just based on the branch we're in in grenade | 19:38 |
| jeblair | clarkb: ah, heh. | 19:38 |
| clarkb | jeblair: so I think rewriting it to use nodepool is what we may need to do? | 19:38 |
| clarkb | or and this was my crazy idea this morning | 19:38 |
| anteaya | could we introduce a new jenkins master with the upgrade? and then move over from there? | 19:38 |
| clarkb | maybe we can point prod nodepool at jenkins-dev? | 19:38 |
| clarkb | I don't think prod nodepool at jenkins-dev will work due to ssh key mismatches | 19:39 |
| maurosr | sdague: yup, I'm finishing it, I can submit it today (yesterday and friday had some troubles and the holiday that didnt let me work on it) | 19:39 |
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| maurosr | but will submit it today for sure | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: so maybe we need a nodepool-dev? ugh. | 19:39 |
| maurosr | replacing the other one which cleans everything | 19:39 |
| clarkb | anteaya: that is one possibility but we should be able to do an upgrade in place | 19:39 |
| clarkb | jeblair: that was another thing I considered, possibly just run it on jenkins-dev | 19:40 |
| fungi | clarkb: mordred has had success getting nodepool running on his laptop... maybe something similar could be pointed at jenkins-dev instead of needing a nodepool-dev server? | 19:40 |
| jeblair | colocating nodepool-dev service on jenkins-dev sounds fine | 19:40 |
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| fungi | oh, or locally installed on jenkins-dev itself. yeah, not a bad idea at all | 19:40 |
| anteaya | clarkb k | 19:40 |
| jeblair | clarkb: sound like a plan? | 19:41 |
| clarkb | sure | 19:41 |
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| clarkb | zaro: any chance you want to work on the puppet to do that? | 19:41 |
| jeblair | cool | 19:41 |
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| zaro | clarkb: can do. | 19:42 |
| jeblair | clarkb, zaro: in fact, i think that may actually be how the old devstack-gate stuff was set up on jenkins-dev. | 19:42 |
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| clarkb | #action zaro setup dev nodepoold on jenkins-dev | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | #topic New devstack job requirements (clarkb) | 19:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New devstack job requirements (clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:42 | |
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| clarkb | one of the things that came out of adding havana d-g jobs was that we have two large classes of d-g jobs. There are d-g jobs that run against patches and d-g jobs that run periodically against tip of $branch | 19:43 |
| clarkb | I would like to propose that we require and new d-g jobs supply both forms as two different templates so that when icehouse rolls around adding d-g jobs for it is as simple as updating zuul layout.yaml | 19:44 |
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| clarkb | with havana I was juggling a lot of missing pieces and I think staying on top of that through a cycle would be better | 19:44 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i agree with the proposal in principle; i may want to see your refactor before agreeing to the specifics | 19:44 |
| fungi | and i think the current state with regard to that is great now, after your last change went in | 19:45 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: thats fair, there is a little more work to coalesce the branch specific check jobs with the rest of the check/gate jobs and stable branche periodic jobs with master periodic jobs | 19:46 |
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| clarkb | right now we have ~4 distinct classes of d-g job and I think I can roll that into two | 19:46 |
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| clarkb | so getting it to two is a good first step | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | cool; if there are any new d-g jobs while clarkb works on this, we should probably run those changes by him to make sure it fits with this work | 19:47 |
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| fungi | yes, agreed | 19:48 |
| jeblair | #topic Increased space yet again on static.o.o (fungi) | 19:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Increased space yet again on static.o.o (fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:48 | |
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| fungi | this was more of a public service announcement | 19:48 |
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| pleia2 | time to add some disk space monitoring? | 19:48 |
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| jeblair | fungi: was this during the summit, or once again, afterwords? | 19:49 |
| fungi | i increased the logs volume during the summit to 4tb, but then caught it again last week just before it filled up and pushed it to 5tb | 19:49 |
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| fungi | http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=717&rra_id=all | 19:49 |
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| fungi | er | 19:49 |
| fungi | #link http://cacti.openstack.org/cacti/graph.php?action=view&local_graph_id=717&rra_id=all | 19:49 |
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| fungi | i confirmed the deletion weekly cron job is working as intended to expire 6-month-old content | 19:50 |
| fungi | we're just on an ever-increasing treadmill of log collection | 19:50 |
| jeblair | fungi: that's exciting. | 19:50 |
| fungi | similarly, docs-draft is up to 400gb now | 19:50 |
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| clarkb | we have a giant firehose filling water ballons | 19:51 |
| fungi | anyway, that's all i wanted to mention on the topic | 19:51 |
| jeblair | fungi: i think we should make those volumes be at 50% | 19:51 |
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| fungi | jeblair: i'm happy to do that | 19:51 |
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| jeblair | fungi: cool, thanks | 19:51 |
| fungi | #action fungi grow logs and docs-draft volumes so they're 50% full | 19:52 |
| jeblair | i believe we had expected them to stabilize. we might have been wrong about that. :( | 19:52 |
| clarkb | so I haven't been able to confirm this yet | 19:52 |
| clarkb | but the nova logs exploded in size (~8MB compressed for n-cpu??) due to the iso8601 logging | 19:52 |
| clarkb | fungi: any idea if that caused a significant uptick in log size? | 19:53 |
| fungi | clarkb: it was hard to tell, but i'd expect compression to water that increase down if it's repetitive lines | 19:53 |
| jeblair | hrm, total artifact size by zuul job would be a nice metric; the new log uploading system could report that. | 19:53 |
| fungi | also, there was no obvious uptick in utilization on the voume, just a fairly steady linear progression there | 19:54 |
| clarkb | gotcha | 19:54 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:54 | |
| * zaro meeting topic, sorry came in late. | 19:54 | |
| zaro | new jjb release | 19:54 |
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| zaro | anybody have issues with that? | 19:55 |
| clarkb | oh ya, we had someone submit a bug requesting a new release and I am +1 on doing it | 19:55 |
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| pabelanger | Also wanted to remind people about https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56107/ maybe get some feedback about the packaging import | 19:55 |
| clarkb | I do think we should get the new jjb-ptl group change in so that zaro and maybe others can do the releases | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56823/ | 19:55 |
| jeblair | clarkb: jjb has a ptl? | 19:56 |
| anteaya | I'm continuing to work in -neutron | 19:56 |
| clarkb | jeblair: no, but read the the change comments for why it was named that way :) | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: mordred wanted consistency | 19:56 |
| * mordred doens't feel strongly about it | 19:56 | |
| jeblair | clarkb: well, the group is named that way to remind us to keep it small. :) | 19:56 |
| mordred | but I know we've pushed back on people before making a thing not called -ptl | 19:57 |
| clarkb | yup | 19:57 |
| clarkb | I am fine with the name | 19:57 |
| jeblair | mordred: i'm not opposed to the name | 19:57 |
| mordred | that said - perhaps -ptl is the wrong name for that role and -release-manager is a better name? | 19:57 |
| * mordred doesn't want to bikeshed too much | 19:57 | |
| jeblair | mordred: i'm not sold on the _idea_ | 19:57 |
| mordred | ah | 19:57 |
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| mordred | gotcha | 19:57 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: so I suggested it because openstack-ci-core has really taken a back seat in JJB reviews lately | 19:57 |
| jeblair | clarkb: one of us has been on vacation | 19:58 |
| clarkb | I think a subset of the jjb core group is in a better position to cut releases | 19:58 |
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| fungi | and that's about it for time | 19:59 |
| jeblair | clarkb: the people who can make releases should definitely be a subset of the jjb core group. it currently is. | 19:59 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 20:00:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-19-19.03.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-19-19.03.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-11-19-19.03.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | Who is around for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| markmc | hey | 20:00 |
| jcoufal | o/ | 20:00 |
| bswartz | I'm here this time! | 20:00 |
| rushiagr | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | russellb, annegentle, mikal, mordred, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain, lifeless, sdague: around ? | 20:01 |
| markmc | just said to ttx - I may have to drop off sooner than I thought from this; coming in to land | 20:01 |
| ttx | bswartz: welcome! | 20:01 |
| lifeless | ttx: oh hi | 20:01 |
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| russellb | o/ | 20:02 |
| russellb | wow, that time already? | 20:02 |
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| ttx | russellb: heh | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | hi | 20:02 |
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| ttx | so we momentarily have enough people, let's get it started | 20:03 |
| lifeless | dum dum dum daaaaah! | 20:03 |
| mikal | hi | 20:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 20:03:17 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda today: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
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| ttx | busy busy | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Manila incubation request: final discussion | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Manila incubation request: final discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-October/016370.html | 20:03 |
| bswartz | first off I'd like to apologize for missing last week -- I was on a plane because I stayed in HK a few days after the conference | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila_Overview | 20:03 |
| markmc | bswartz, did you see the logs and https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ManilaIncubationApplication ? | 20:04 |
| bswartz | also I was under the impression that manila incubation wouldn't come up for consideration until today because I simply misread the email from ttx -- sorry about that | 20:04 |
| markmc | lots of questions in there | 20:04 |
| bswartz | markmc: yes I did | 20:04 |
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| ttx | bswartz: I think I can summarize by saying the strongest objection to incubation in last week's discussion was about the maturity of the project | 20:04 |
| bswartz | I'm happy to answer those today | 20:04 |
| ttx | Both in terms of number of commits and number of developers involved | 20:04 |
| ttx | (We rejected Designate on similar grounds over the last cycle) | 20:04 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:04 |
| ttx | Also seemed like Manila could benefit from another round of discussion regarding its relationship with Cinder | 20:05 |
| annegentle | o/ here | 20:05 |
| bswartz | so I understood that designate was basically a one-company effort | 20:05 |
| ttx | So all in all it appeared to be a bit early to consider incubation. | 20:05 |
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| bswartz | there is broad interst in Manila, if not active participation as of yet | 20:05 |
| mordred | bswartz: yah. that was the main thing with designate too | 20:05 |
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| mordred | broad support, not tons of multi-company participation yet | 20:05 |
| ttx | That said... I think we need a more formal way to designate (haha) projects where the topic is promising and we'd like to encourage more people to participate | 20:06 |
| bswartz | so we have several companies interested in working on back ends | 20:06 |
| russellb | ttx: +1 | 20:06 |
| ttx | The soft encouragement we used for Designate did not really attract the masses, which is why I was thinking about a more shiny badge they could wear | 20:06 |
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| bswartz | the main thing stopping them is that we recognized some archtectural limitations and we're working on addressing those | 20:06 |
| ttx | Like "OpenStack Emerging Technology project" | 20:06 |
| jeblair | i read the logs and i agree with ttx's assesment; i personally think it's a great idea and it should be in openstack; the project should grow a bit, and i'd really like to see jgriffith and russellb weigh in on the integration/overlap points | 20:06 |
| dhellmann | nurtured? | 20:06 |
| ttx | We could grant that category extra resources at summits to make sure more people converge to what sounds like a good idea. | 20:06 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 20:08 |
| jeblair | ttx: we should be _really_ _really_ careful with that | 20:08 |
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| bswartz | ttx: I'm not interestined in a badge or publicity -- we have more publicity than we need at this stage of development | 20:08 |
| ttx | bswartz: it might be relevant to address those issues before getting into incubation | 20:08 |
| mordred | yeah - I'm not sure we need new catagories | 20:08 |
| bswartz | what we want is to be allowed to integrate with things such as devstack/tempest | 20:08 |
| russellb | you just need more contributors :) | 20:08 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:08 |
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| mordred | I think the TC even saying "hey man, we like that, good job" | 20:08 |
| russellb | so how do we help you get more contribution? | 20:08 |
| jeblair | ttx: there's already a tendency for stackforge projects to overstate their involvement in openstack | 20:09 |
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| bswartz | it makes things a lot easier when we can fit into the mold that other projects use | 20:09 |
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| ttx | jeblair, mordred: yes... I just don't feel us syaing "nice idea, please come back when you mature" was *that* succcessful in getting more people to contribute to designate | 20:09 |
| russellb | you can already integrate with devstack, and even devstack-gate, easily | 20:09 |
| ttx | so I hesitate in proposing that for manila | 20:09 |
| russellb | ttx: it's either that, or lowering the bar for incubation, right? | 20:09 |
| annegentle | I want to hear from jgriffith | 20:09 |
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| ttx | also I think I'd like us to adopt sdague's constraints on new incubated projects sooner rather than later | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | annegentle: haha | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | should we have the meta-discussion about badges first? | 20:09 |
| bswartz | we don't need help increasing our contribution level -- that will come as soon as we get past the technical hurdes we face (I'm estimating 4-6 weeks on that) | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | since it's ok for projects to be incubated for more than 1 release cycle, I think it'd be fair to incubate projects that are definitely a good idea and give them the time to mature | 20:09 |
| jgriffith | so we seem to have skipped past that initial discussion/convo | 20:09 |
| sdague | ttx, yeh, I'd really like to not add another project to incubation until we decide on that | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | while being incubated | 20:09 |
| jeblair | bswartz: while it is a recent change, devstack, devstack-gate, and tempest are all now modular enough that any stackforge project can do it; wsme and sqlalchemy-migrate are working on that now. | 20:09 |
| lifeless | bswartz: what are the technical hurdles? | 20:09 |
| annegentle | jgriffith: I think yes we need technical discussion :) | 20:10 |
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| jgriffith | I'd like a better idea of scope/direction of the project | 20:10 |
| bswartz | russellb: I'll talk to you offfline about the devstack stuff - I wasn't aware there was a path to use devstack pre-incubation | 20:10 |
| russellb | yeah i just did it with a couple hours work for solum yesterday | 20:10 |
| lifeless | bswartz: see the patchset to enable it in solum | 20:10 |
| lifeless | bswartz: it's pretty self explanatory | 20:10 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: see my comment above ^^ | 20:10 |
| lifeless | bswartz: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57036/ | 20:10 |
| bswartz | lifeless: thanks | 20:11 |
| lifeless | bswartz: what are the technical hurdles you face? | 20:11 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I know we talked about the LVM question | 20:11 |
| russellb | bswartz: and related, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57098 | 20:11 |
| ttx | bswartz: so it's extremely likely that we'd require you to have gate jobs before being accepted into incubation | 20:11 |
| bswartz | regarding "technical issues" it's clear that the code we wrote initially only works for single tenant environments -- properly supporting multitenant environments requires a different design | 20:11 |
| bswartz | we've been working for the last 3 months on designing that and it's about ready to go in | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | ttx: bswartz can we first get a better idea of what the goal is here? | 20:12 |
| lifeless | bswartz: wow | 20:12 |
| russellb | that's a pretty fundamental requirement for openstack things :) | 20:12 |
| russellb | if that's not there yet ... | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | ttx: bswartz the code is not necessarily idicative right now based on conversations I had with bswartz | 20:12 |
| jgriffith | s/idicative/indicative/ | 20:12 |
| ttx | jgriffith: now I'm scared. there is stuff going on that I don't see ? | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | ttx: good things (I think) | 20:13 |
| bswartz | russellb: it's still useful in many application in a single tenant mode -- but solving it for multi tenant is dramatically more difficult | 20:13 |
| lifeless | So incubation is the process of taking a functional project and getting it fully integrated; I am feeling more and more that this is premature. | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: cmiw... | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | the block management code/drivers won't stay | 20:13 |
| ttx | lifeless: same here | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | manilla will actually consume cinder resources | 20:13 |
| bswartz | it's only since establishing the project that we've gotten the kinds of ideas and participation that have allowed us to come up with solutions | 20:13 |
| sdague | bswartz, you won't be able to run in the gate in any real way without multi tenancy, so that's really table stakes | 20:13 |
| flaper87 | lifeless: +1 for functional projects | 20:13 |
| lifeless | The question i have is what can we do to help you get ready for integration? | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | AFAIK, one of the requirements for a project to be incubated is to have a stable API | 20:14 |
| russellb | lifeless: ++ | 20:14 |
| lifeless | Is it a mentoring issue? Resources? Architecture? | 20:14 |
| lifeless | I'm very excited by the idea of in the cloud fs's on demand :) | 20:14 |
| markmc | me too | 20:15 |
| bswartz | if having a stable API is a requirement then we definitely don't have that | 20:15 |
| jgriffith | lifeless: I'm still trying to confirm that's the plan and what it *means* to manilla | 20:15 |
| markmc | sounds like we're not at the point of architectural stability, though | 20:15 |
| bswartz | I didn't see that requirement listed anywhere | 20:15 |
| lifeless | jgriffith: ack; thats important1 | 20:15 |
| zaneb | bswartz: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Approved/NewProjectProcess#Process | 20:16 |
| jgriffith | so gating/devstack etc is kinda secondary right now IMO | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | markmc: it sounds to me like we aren't even sure what the feature set is | 20:16 |
| markmc | bswartz, gathering requirements here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/incubation-and-integration-requirements | 20:16 |
| lifeless | bswartz: ok, so lets loop back around to jgriffith's point, which is the start of it all :) | 20:16 |
| ttx | bswartz: "incubation" is actually about integration with other openstack bits and the ability to deliver stuff in the common release every 6 months -- not really about project maturation | 20:16 |
| zaneb | "The maturity of the project. Has it been used in production and deployed at scale?" | 20:16 |
| zaneb | nothing about a stable API specifically | 20:16 |
| markmc | bswartz, so e.g. "Technical stability and architecture maturity" | 20:16 |
| * markmc has to drop off, sorry | 20:16 | |
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| zaneb | but "need to rewrite in order to handle multi-tenant" is hard to reconcile with "mature" | 20:17 |
| bswartz | okay so I'm hearing that this group expects projects to basically be complete by the time they enter incubation | 20:17 |
| jgriffith | base functional complete | 20:17 |
| ttx | I think it's safe to say at this point that this incubation request is a bit early. We can issue a statement that it sounds like a very interesting thing to have in openstack, though. | 20:18 |
| jeblair | ttx: agreed | 20:18 |
| zaneb | well, nothing is ever complete | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | bswartz: base functionality must exist | 20:18 |
| jgriffith | zaneb: +1 :) | 20:18 |
| sdague | ttx: +1 | 20:18 |
| russellb | ttx: +1 | 20:18 |
| markmcclain | ttx:+ | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | ttx: +1 | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | and ttx +1 | 20:18 |
| markmcclain | ttx: +1 | 20:18 |
| russellb | and I think we owe the community in general more clear incubation expectations | 20:18 |
| bswartz | ttx: what about your proposal for a "OpenStack Emerging Technology project" designation | 20:18 |
| russellb | which is something we have in progress | 20:18 |
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| annegentle | I have to drop off in a few mins but will be back I hope | 20:18 |
| sdague | honestly, I think we'll end up with a better formal definition of the incubation / integration bars in the near term | 20:19 |
| lifeless | ttx: +1 | 20:19 |
| jgriffith | Just to throw a wrench in the works ;) | 20:19 |
| ttx | bswartz: it's a separate topic, we haven't discussed if that was actually a good idea. | 20:19 |
| lifeless | russellb: +1 too :) | 20:19 |
| bswartz | many people are looking for some kind of official blessing of the project | 20:19 |
| ttx | bswartz: but I'm fine with a formal statement saying the same we said to designate | 20:19 |
| bswartz | my interests are only to build something that works | 20:19 |
| annegentle | bswartz: I am so glad to hear you're getting good ideas before incubation though, keep it up | 20:19 |
| jgriffith | I think some good points were raised last week regarding what the *right* path is here | 20:19 |
| ttx | "looks awesome, come back when you're more ready" | 20:19 |
| ttx | + | 20:20 |
| ttx | "hey everyone, htat souhnds like a very nice project to spend time on" | 20:20 |
| ttx | err... "that sounds" | 20:20 |
| jeblair | bswartz: in particular, no one has said "this is out of scope"; "we would like this in openstack" is a significant thing to take away from this. | 20:20 |
| bswartz | jeblair: yeah that's the impression I've gotten for quite some time | 20:21 |
| ttx | bswartz: if we get to establish a "emerging tech" label, I'd definitely apply it to Manila | 20:21 |
| ttx | (and Designate) | 20:21 |
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| ttx | Other comments before we move to next topic ? | 20:21 |
| bswartz | okay so I heard we have a solution for devstack inclusion | 20:22 |
| bswartz | what can we do with our tempests tests before we can be incubated? | 20:22 |
| bswartz | tempest* | 20:22 |
| ttx | sdague: wanna answer this one ? | 20:23 |
| sdague | bswartz, that's a little more complicated, because tempest doesn't have a stable internal API. But we can chat in -qa later about options | 20:23 |
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| bswartz | sdague: thanks | 20:23 |
| russellb | sdague: i'm interested there too btw | 20:23 |
| sdague | russellb, sure. Though it's not really a great answer at this point. But lets take that there | 20:24 |
| russellb | yep] | 20:24 |
| sdague | and let ttx move on | 20:24 |
| ttx | #agreed We would like to have Manila in OpenStack one day, needs more maturation, solve multi-tenant concerns and get devstack-gate integration before revisiting incubation request | 20:24 |
| ttx | does that sum it up well enough ? | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 20:24 |
| markmcclain | +1 | 20:24 |
| sdague | +1 | 20:24 |
| mikal | Works for me | 20:24 |
| ttx | ok, moving on | 20:24 |
| ttx | #topic Program proposal: OpenStack User Experience | 20:25 |
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| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/UX/ProgramProposal | 20:25 |
| ttx | So... Personally I'm a bit torn on this... I think UX should be a primary concern in every program... not necessarily needing a specific, separate program | 20:25 |
| ttx | IMHO "good user experience" is like "massive scalability", it's a design goal. Are we going to create a program for each design goal ? | 20:25 |
| zaneb | ttx: s/UX/docs/ ? | 20:25 |
| ttx | So in the same way I want people caring about security and scalability in every project, I want UX-caring devs *in* every project | 20:25 |
| lifeless | it's a bit like it | 20:25 |
| lifeless | bit its also different | 20:25 |
| ttx | zaneb: docs end up producing stuff in a separate repo | 20:26 |
| jeblair | zaneb: docs has specific output that exceeds the specific projects | 20:26 |
| lifeless | massive scale is easier for technical devs to understand and execute (and even then its not easy) | 20:26 |
| russellb | so, we've said before that programs are largely about groups of people working together on some effort | 20:26 |
| zaneb | true | 20:26 |
| russellb | what does the group of people look like here? | 20:26 |
| ttx | Having design goals under specific programs/teams doesn't look like the best way to get those concerns prioritized in each project core team | 20:26 |
| ttx | I see how separate teams could just create conflicts | 20:26 |
| sdague | it seemed pretty gui focussed as well. I was kind of wondering whether something like logging harmonization would fit there, or was considered by the group | 20:26 |
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| jcoufal | so basically at this moment we are much more focused on GUI, it's the most obvious are where we can help | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | and CLIs | 20:27 |
| jeblair | russellb: from the program proposal, it looks like it's mostly a group of devs focused on horizon | 20:27 |
| russellb | jeblair: yeah ... | 20:27 |
| flaper87 | but I'd like to hear an answer to russellb question | 20:27 |
| ttx | I don't really mind if people with UX experience work on various projects... I just question the need for an official progral to support this work | 20:27 |
| ttx | program* | 20:28 |
| jcoufal | but in general this is also about unification of command in CLI or API, where we didn't put much focus yet | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | they do talk about the CLI, and I talked to dtroyer about the work he has already done there -- he's interested in their input, but has already done a lot of the analysis for the cli | 20:28 |
| flaper87 | ttx: +1 | 20:28 |
| ttx | the lack of a progral so far didn't prevent UX people to get involved in horizon | 20:28 |
| ttx | proograM, damn you keyboard | 20:28 |
| russellb | i'm not sure the unified CLI fits into this | 20:28 |
| sdague | right, I guess that was my question, what does being a program do to make it better, vs. just doing it? | 20:28 |
| russellb | i actually have been thinking that a program around clients could make sense | 20:28 |
| sdague | russellb, I was thinking the same thing re: clients | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | russellb: they specifically call out the cli work in the proposal | 20:29 |
| russellb | i know they do, just saying i'm not sure it makes sense | 20:29 |
| jcoufal | ttx: well one of the things is, that these people doesn't have to have much code contribution | 20:29 |
| jcoufal | ttx: and they deserve to be also recognized | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | russellb: hmm, why not? | 20:29 |
| jeblair | jcoufal: did you see sdague's question about logs? more generally: would you consider "operator experience" part of UX? | 20:29 |
| ttx | jcoufal: we have a process set up to recognize those contributions though, you benefitted from it | 20:30 |
| vishy | internet failure :( | 20:30 |
| jcoufal | furthermore on sumit we have so little place to discuss various issues and it was very welcome to talk about those topics, but we were stealing slots from other projects | 20:30 |
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| sdague | so summit session time is a tangle, I can understand that concern | 20:30 |
| jeblair | jcoufal: i don't think it's stealing at all. projects _should_ be considering ux as part of their design... | 20:30 |
| ttx | jcoufal: I'd rather have UX concerns discussed in projects slots rather than on a specific track tbh | 20:30 |
| jcoufal | jeblair: not yet, but it sounds like it might belong into our are as well | 20:30 |
| sdague | tangible... also typing issues | 20:30 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: +1000 | 20:30 |
| markmcclain | ttx: +1 | 20:31 |
| flaper87 | ttx: +1 | 20:31 |
| sdague | this does get us back into the weeds on the need for some cross project tracks | 20:31 |
| jcoufal | russellb: one of the targets is also to setup official group of users/clients for testing | 20:31 |
| ttx | jcoufal: last thing you want is discuss UX in an echo chamber and then come and ask devs to do it | 20:31 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: I'm just not sure how you separate the two effectively | 20:31 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: other than providing valuable feed-back | 20:31 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: if you're trying to drive the projects from this program I don't know how effective that would be | 20:31 |
| ttx | sdague: yes, I think there are smarter ways to address that concern | 20:31 |
| david-lyle | I think the main concern is that a lot of the user experience issues are cross project, focusing efforts in individual projects results in the inconsistencies we have today | 20:31 |
| jcoufal | jgriffith: we want to be very close to projects and support them, not driving actually | 20:32 |
| sdague | ttx: agreed | 20:32 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: right, so why not participate directly? | 20:32 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: rather than have a "separte" category | 20:32 |
| ttx | david-lyle: I agree with that, we need to have some cross-project time carved into next summit | 20:32 |
| lifeless | we have had some success with technology choices across programs | 20:32 |
| lifeless | e.g. pecan | 20:32 |
| jcoufal | jgriffith: because of the cross-project relations | 20:32 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: I suspect we're talking in a circle :) | 20:32 |
| lifeless | is there something about UX that works differently? | 20:32 |
| sdague | david-lyle: that's fair, I think however we can tackle it without a program per say. My intent with the log harmonizing was to just tiger team it for the cycle, grab a handful of interested folks and go after multiple projects | 20:33 |
| jcoufal | lifeless: differently then what? | 20:33 |
| anteaya | ttx +1 for cross-project time | 20:33 |
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| ttx | sdague: yes, and I don't think we need a log harmonization program to make it happen | 20:33 |
| david-lyle | sdague: and what keeps that effort going once logging has been normalized for now? | 20:33 |
| sdague | ttx: agreed | 20:33 |
| sdague | david-lyle: guidelines for the projects, which lead to reviewing rules | 20:34 |
| sdague | conceptually like HACKING.rst | 20:34 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: I guess my point was if you have folks interested in doing this why can't they participate in the projects? | 20:34 |
| david-lyle | sdague: who do new projects go to with questions regarding logging standards, api standards, | 20:34 |
| ttx | If the key rationale behind this program request is to make sure there is time for cross-project UX discussion at the summit, I think that's the wrong solution for a real problem | 20:34 |
| sdague | fix the issue, set the guidelines, change the culture | 20:34 |
| jgriffith | jcoufal: regardless you're going to have to do that anyway IMO | 20:34 |
| zaneb | jcoufal: how would folks be recognised as ATCs for this program? (for other programs it's from patches landed) | 20:34 |
| lifeless | jcoufal: differently than the way we code convergence on technology stack | 20:34 |
| lifeless | jcoufal: which was folk having discussions on the list and IRC and doing the odd experiment + reporting back. | 20:35 |
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| david-lyle | I think the hope here is to help user experience, via testing/surverys/design guide future practices | 20:35 |
| ttx | zaneb: yes, that was my concern #2 about this : who would be considered an ATC under this program ? Who would vote in its PTL election ? What would constitute "contribution" to it ? | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | that the results are documented in a common location | 20:35 |
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| ttx | zaneb: I'd rather have existing PTLs proposing UX people for ATC in their own program, like Gabriel did for Jaromir last cycle | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | I think most of the arguments related to this program could be discussed in the mailing-list and that'd benefit the community overall | 20:36 |
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| jcoufal | zaneb: we don't have it decided yet, I need to have a look and agree on that, but I expect contribution in delivered solutions, supporting questions, contributing in duscussion, then the person should be proposed and accepted | 20:36 |
| flaper87 | ttx: +1 | 20:36 |
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| jcoufal | ttx: yes, something similar, nothing automatic | 20:37 |
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| ttx | jcoufal: it's actually easier to do if you don't have a program and a PTL yourself | 20:37 |
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| ttx | so my summary so far is that no TC member is really excited by this, and we'd rather fix summit to make sure UX is properly prioritized and discussed, rather than create a program for it ? | 20:38 |
| zaneb | ttx: yeah, you don't have to bootstrap some source of legitimacy that way ;) | 20:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: mmm | 20:39 |
| lifeless | so | 20:39 |
| flaper87 | UX is something that I'd prefer all projects to take under consideration - I'm not saying this is not the case - rather than having a single program that takes care of it. I'd like to see all this discussions - UX ones - happening in the mailing list and have projects chiming in | 20:39 |
| lifeless | I think UX is important, often poorly understood and hard for non-experts to deliver on. | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | I think we need to do more than say 'yeah, talk @ the summit.' | 20:39 |
| ttx | jcoufal: I know having to crash into horizon slots was unconfortable last summit, but we want to have time for cross-project stuff next time | 20:39 |
| lifeless | e.g. I'd like to put some guidance directly to programs to engage with UX in the same way we do for engaging with docs. | 20:40 |
| jcoufal | lifeless: yeah, I wanted to use docs example as well | 20:40 |
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| dhellmann | I have questions about having this as a separate program, but I also have questions about the proposal in front of us. It looks like a lot of things that will be done, but not things that have been done. We just told the Manilla folks we wouldn't incubate them under similar circumstances. Should we let the team start doing some of the work they have planned before we decide on whether it should be a program? | 20:41 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: +1 | 20:41 |
| ttx | lifeless: the end result for docs is that it's almost a completely separate team though. I feel like having UX people infiltrating projects rather than bing a standalone expert group makes more sense | 20:41 |
| lifeless | ttx: I agree with that. | 20:41 |
| lifeless | ttx: It doesn't conflict with what I said AFAICT. | 20:41 |
| david-lyle | ttx: there definitely is a need for an embedded nature | 20:41 |
| ttx | lifeless: so I see them as the OSSG (opensatck security group). They have a list, a meeting, people can tap in it. Not a progral though. | 20:42 |
| ttx | program* | 20:42 |
| zaneb | ttx: is there a chance that having a UX program would encourage more companies to hire UX folks to work on OpenStack? | 20:42 |
| ttx | zaneb: that would also make a poor reason for creating it | 20:43 |
| * anteaya hands ttx a new keyboard with an M | 20:43 | |
| lifeless | ttx: I think we're talking past each other. | 20:43 |
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| ttx | lifeless: that happens | 20:43 |
| lifeless | ttx: I'm not talking about how it's structured. I'm talking about how we help achieve success within the programs. | 20:43 |
| jcoufal | zaneb: I believe it might encourage companies to being more involved | 20:43 |
| vishy | lifeless: concrete steps is the only way to achieve success imo | 20:43 |
| lifeless | ttx: I have not disagreed with any of your comments on structure. But it seems clear to me that structure alone won't be very successful, based on previous observation of UX <-> programmer interactions. | 20:44 |
| lifeless | vishy: yup; actionable items! | 20:44 |
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| vishy | take an idea like standardize logs or implement pagination in all apis | 20:44 |
| zaneb | ttx: it's entirely possible that a lot of companies don't even know there's a place/need for UX folks | 20:44 |
| vishy | and make it happen | 20:44 |
| vishy | the only way to gain cross-project respect is to actually achieve something | 20:44 |
| ttx | hmm, looks like we may need to continue this one next week, I want to cover a bit more ground today | 20:45 |
| jcoufal | vishy: we have a launchpad at the moment of stuff which we need to attack, currently full of horizon / tuskar stuff (GUI) | 20:45 |
| vishy | since the projects are all technical meritocracies | 20:45 |
| jcoufal | but should get filled with logs, etc | 20:45 |
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| vishy | once the projects see value, then there is room for turning it into a program or some such | 20:45 |
| ttx | jcoufal: is it a separate project, or a tag ? | 20:45 |
| jcoufal | ttx: separate launchpad | 20:45 |
| vishy | until then it will just seem like a degree from on high and it won't go anywhere | 20:45 |
| jcoufal | https://launchpad.net/openstack-ux | 20:45 |
| lifeless | vishy: decree? | 20:46 |
| vishy | *decree | 20:46 |
| vishy | aye | 20:46 |
| ttx | jcoufal: and I think that's symptomatic of the problem here. You want to evangelize UX, not do it separately | 20:46 |
| jcoufal | but it's very new | 20:46 |
| sdague | yeh, it seems like this should be a tag on existing bug trackers | 20:46 |
| sdague | not it's own | 20:46 |
| ttx | if you have bugs that "normal" developers never see... not the vbest way to get them to care about ux | 20:46 |
| sdague | if this is about cross project things | 20:46 |
| vishy | +1 to tags | 20:46 |
| vishy | that said you can also target the bug at both projects | 20:47 |
| ttx | Basically I see UX as an advocacy thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but like for security, I'd like for everyone to care about it a bit | 20:47 |
| markmcclain | +1 | 20:47 |
| flaper87 | ttx: +1 | 20:47 |
| ttx | and making a separate team is not the best way to achieve that | 20:47 |
| vishy | ttx: I agree that everyone should care about it, but someone has to set the standards | 20:47 |
| vishy | and that needs to be actionable items | 20:47 |
| sdague | vishy: +1 | 20:47 |
| jcoufal | ttx: who will be creating the guidlines? | 20:47 |
| sdague | you still need champions | 20:47 |
| vishy | or we will have another year of "boy wouldn't it be great if the logs in nova didn't suck" | 20:48 |
| flaper87 | vishy: and teach others what those standards are | 20:48 |
| ttx | jcoufal: UX-caring people, discussing on [UX] threads on the ml ? | 20:48 |
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| sdague | jcoufal: honestly, I think you can champion it without being an official program. In most cases people are looking for guidance, and if there are solid recommendations out there, people will follow them instead of doing their own thing | 20:49 |
| vishy | i would say write a plan for one area and start implementing it | 20:49 |
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| dhellmann | vishy: +1, start on something concrete | 20:49 |
| sdague | vishy: +1 | 20:49 |
| anteaya | jcoufal: if people know where to find you they will come to you | 20:49 |
| ttx | so I propose, as the next step, to push this discussion to the ML (the original post didn't trigger anything) -- at the very least it should show that we care about UX so much that we prefer it everywhere rather than somewhere | 20:50 |
| * dhellmann sees baseball fields | 20:50 | |
| anteaya | dhellmann: ha | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | jcoufal: bring up UX issues to the mailing list | 20:50 |
| ttx | jcoufal: a "how to push for better UX in projects" thread. | 20:50 |
| flaper87 | I'm pretty sure there are common UX issues among several of OS projects | 20:51 |
| ttx | then if consensus is that a program is the best way to achieve that, then why not. But I think there are better ways of achieving those goals | 20:51 |
| jcoufal | alright, let's move to ML | 20:51 |
| ttx | ok, let's skip next topic and cover the governance repo schanges in progress before the end of the meeting | 20:52 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes in progress | 20:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes in progress (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:52 | |
| ttx | We have a set of changes for review on the governance repo, which I'll accept once they get YES from the majority of voters | 20:52 |
| ttx | Amend TC charter language to reflect Gender Parity: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56150 | 20:52 |
| lifeless | less bias FTW | 20:52 |
| ttx | that one is pretty obvious, yes | 20:52 |
| ttx | Change Ceilometer official name to OpenStack Telemetry: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56402/ | 20:53 |
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| ttx | So, about this one -- the responsibility for picking the OpenStack official name is a bit of a grey area, so we need to make sure we also include folks like the marketing team in the naming loop | 20:53 |
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| ttx | so I'd hold until they bless it | 20:53 |
| zaneb | holy mixed metaphor, batman! | 20:53 |
| russellb | it's a generic term, so hopefully it won't cause any trouble ... | 20:54 |
| jeblair | ttx: i'm not sure about the responsibility being a grey area, but i'm supportive of including the marketing team's input. | 20:54 |
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| sdague | friendly hint to jd__ to update the wiki with all the refs | 20:54 |
| lifeless | isn't it a legal question? | 20:54 |
| sdague | it's still called the metering meeting, for instance | 20:54 |
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| lifeless | trademark search etc? | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | sdague: I think we're waiting for approval before changing everything | 20:54 |
| ttx | lifeless: generally not because it's a function, but yeh | 20:54 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ok, fair | 20:54 |
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| ttx | anyway, it's just a question of waiting a few more days to let Lauren come back from vacation | 20:55 |
| annegentle | ttx: was Metering thrown out by the ceilometer team itself? | 20:55 |
| annegentle | (by thrown out I mean discarded) | 20:55 |
| ttx | annegentle: I think so yes | 20:55 |
| russellb | no longer reflected their full scope | 20:55 |
| annegentle | rats, I was rooting for not having to change docs | 20:55 |
| ttx | so far those names were mostly some form of consensus | 20:55 |
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| ttx | last one on the board is Update PTLs: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57079/ | 20:56 |
| ttx | pretty obvious cleanup too, will APRV it once it gets 7 +2s | 20:56 |
| russellb | i'll have another one soon ... adding a mission statement for the compute program | 20:56 |
| mordred | ttx: do we need a full TC vote on that one? it seems pretty mechanical | 20:56 |
| russellb | posted to the ML for feedback before submitting to the governance repo ... http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-November/019677.html | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | mordred: good point, that one seems like it's just updating a statement of the outcome of the election, which is already published and accepted | 20:57 |
| ttx | mordred: then it should get 7 +2s quite easily :) Not suire how I can make calls on what needs a formal vote and what doesn't | 20:57 |
| ttx | mordred: if you trust me, I'll make those calls as chair, but I don't want to abuse my APRV power | 20:57 |
| * russellb trusts you fwiw | 20:58 | |
| mordred | ttx: I think we can trust you | 20:58 |
| mordred | and if you abuse, we'll remove you | 20:58 |
| russellb | right :) | 20:58 |
| russellb | pitchforks and all | 20:58 |
| * dhellmann cracks knuckles | 20:58 | |
| annegentle | we really need autopublish to the wiki soon with all these changes, what's the latest on that? | 20:58 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think factual updates and typos are ok for the chair to update without votes | 20:58 |
| ttx | hahahahaha. my evil plan worked | 20:58 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:58 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:58 |
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| lifeless | +1 | 20:58 |
| ttx | I can now rule the galaxy^W^W^Wpush changes to a repo | 20:58 |
| sdague | annegentle: do we really want to autopublish to the wiki, or do another docs tree instead for some of the more official docs? | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | it feels weird to publish static documents to a wiki | 20:59 |
| jeblair | sdague, annegentle: yeah, i think we wanted more of a docs-publish location and deprecate the wiki... | 20:59 |
| sdague | yeh, I think that's a discussion for anotehr day | 20:59 |
| russellb | link to cgit from the wiki? | 20:59 |
| annegentle | jeblair: sdague: oh, ok | 20:59 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: one side of the issue is that we have URLs we'd like to preserve | 20:59 |
| ttx | some of them bing in the damn BYLAWS. | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | edit the pages with links to the new locations | 20:59 |
| sdague | annegentle: but I'm with you on using these as the source of truth | 20:59 |
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| ttx | (well, in bylaws appendixes, but you get the idea) | 21:00 |
| jeblair | ttx: also on that subject, i'd like to change the acls (as i suggested in my message on this way back) so that tc members can vote +/-1, and non members may only leave comments; chair can vote +/-2 and aprv | 21:00 |
| ttx | jeblair: hmm, why ? | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | that would make it easier to count the votes | 21:00 |
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| jeblair | for two reasons: dhellmann's is the first. and second: i do not believe the tc membership has a right to veto motions, which is what a -2 is. | 21:01 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I kinda liked giving ordinary people the right to express their opinion though | 21:01 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 21:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: definitely not suggesting that people can't or should not express their opinion | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | ttx: everyone can comment | 21:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: only saying they shouldn't vote. | 21:01 |
| russellb | can we just remove -2? | 21:01 |
| russellb | and only have +2 (and +/-1) | 21:01 |
| ttx | russellb: that's how I count "no" | 21:01 |
| ttx | we need to count 'no' | 21:01 |
| mordred | russellb: we can, but then why would we vote +1 ever? it seems odd | 21:02 |
| russellb | right | 21:02 |
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| ttx | jeblair: so... ok, better do it now while nobody is actually attached to that | 21:02 |
| ttx | and we are way over time | 21:02 |
| jeblair | ttx: i believe you have just expressed the most succinct reason this needs to be done | 21:02 |
| markwash | if there were a controversial measure, wouldn't it be nice to see a summary of how many non-tc folks were for or against? | 21:02 |
| * jd__ nods | 21:02 | |
| ttx | markwash: yeah, that was my concern | 21:02 |
| jeblair | (-2 is not possible, and member -1 is not distinguishable from non-member -1) | 21:03 |
| anteaya | unless you refer to the TC member list | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: you and ttx are interpreting -2 in different ways | 21:03 |
| markmcclain | I think a high comment volume would get our attention | 21:03 |
| mordred | -2 has a meaning in gerrit that we can't avoid | 21:03 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: gerrit is interpreting it differently. :) | 21:03 |
| mordred | it's not about interpretation | 21:03 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: fair enough | 21:03 |
| ttx | we have a problem if some members vote "no" using their -2s but there are more YES and the motion should be approved. | 21:03 |
| mordred | once we're on 2.8, we might be able to re-add non-member votes | 21:04 |
| ttx | those -2s will prevent us from approving | 21:04 |
| ttx | jeblair: so fix it. | 21:04 |
| jeblair | ttx: will do. | 21:04 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 21:04:17 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-19-20.03.html | 21:04 |
| sdague | jeblair: we could always just write some prolog :) | 21:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-19-20.03.txt | 21:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-11-19-20.03.log.html | 21:04 |
| * mordred punches sdague | 21:04 | |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, stevebaker, david-lyle, markmcclain, hub_cap: around ? | 21:04 |
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| dhellmann | here | 21:04 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | sorry for the overrun | 21:04 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:04 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 21:04 |
| jgriffith | 0/ | 21:04 |
| mordred | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:04 |
| markwash | greetings | 21:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 21:04:46 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:04 |
| russellb | o/ | 21:04 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:04 |
| stevebaker | \o | 21:04 |
| mordred | ttx: I've got weird time needs - can we do the library thing up top? | 21:05 |
| ttx | mordred: how top ? top top ? | 21:05 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:05 |
| mordred | whenever - I'm probably just only online for another 15-20 minutes | 21:05 |
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| ttx | mordred: ok, #2 for takeoff | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic New meeting format | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New meeting format (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| ttx | At the design summit we discussed a new format for this project / release status meeting | 21:06 |
| ttx | The idea is to avoid spending the whole meeting doing per-project status updates, and make the meeting more focused on cross-project communication | 21:06 |
| ttx | Which may well make it shorter and more relevant to everyone | 21:06 |
| ttx | Feel free to add discussion topics on the wiki page if you want anything discussed here, ideally before EOD Monday | 21:06 |
| ttx | For example, sdague/QA could add a topic to raise top gate offenders | 21:06 |
| ttx | We might also just skip the meeting if we don't have anything cross-project to discuss | 21:06 |
| * mordred imagines zero days when that will be the case | 21:07 | |
| ttx | Does that sound good ? | 21:07 |
| sdague | +1 | 21:07 |
| stevebaker | +1 | 21:07 |
| mordred | ++ | 21:07 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 21:07 |
| jgriffith | +1 | 21:07 |
| markmcclain | +1 | 21:07 |
| david-lyle | +1 | 21:07 |
| dolphm | +1 | 21:07 |
| annegentle | +1 | 21:07 |
| hub_cap | hey ttx | 21:07 |
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| russellb | #vote yes | 21:07 |
| hub_cap | +1 | 21:07 |
| annegentle | I like this idea a lot and want to register that affectation here. | 21:07 |
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| markwash | +1 | 21:07 |
| ttx | awesome. handling the project 1-to-1s updates today was a bit crazy, but we'll see if I survive it | 21:07 |
| jeblair | annegentle: i add my +1 to your +1 | 21:08 |
| jd__ | +1 | 21:08 |
| annegentle | ttx: you can DO it! | 21:08 |
| dolphm | ttx: that is going to become your tuesday | 21:08 |
| hub_cap | ++11 jeblair? | 21:08 |
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| annegentle | hub_cap: concationation ftw | 21:08 |
| ttx | dolphm: indeed | 21:08 |
| markwash | where did we end up on a separate room for those meetings? | 21:08 |
| jeblair | ttx: how do you do it, btw? what's the process? | 21:08 |
| ttx | markwash: I figured #openstack-dev could be abused, so that everyone hears our chat | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | markwash: #openstack-dev wasn't very noisy for mine, but it was early in the day in the US | 21:09 |
| markwash | ttx: its nice until people show up to talk about other stuff | 21:09 |
| ttx | pre-arranged 15-min slots over the Tuesday. 10 of them | 21:09 |
| dolphm | #openstack-dev worked for me, but it was an otherwise quiet time slot | 21:09 |
| ttx | dolphm: we'll move elsewhere if it ends up not bing workable there | 21:09 |
| markwash | it happened like twice in mine, not a huge deal but hurts my brain and seems unnecessary | 21:09 |
| russellb | i had people see me talking and interjecting or messaging asking for things like blueprint reviews or code reviews | 21:10 |
| russellb | it was awesome | 21:10 |
| ttx | yay | 21:10 |
| lifeless | +1 on skipping de meeting :) | 21:10 |
| * dhellmann wishes he was as popular as russellb | 21:10 | |
| russellb | dhellmann: you don't, i promise | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | haha | 21:10 |
| markwash | not sure if awesome, or. . . | 21:10 |
| markwash | :-) | 21:10 |
| ttx | OK, quick topic for markwash/mordred/ttx question about client lib branches | 21:10 |
| * jd__ waits for someone to throw a blueprint to review at russellb | 21:10 | |
| ttx | #topic Client lib branches (markwash) | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Client lib branches (markwash) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:10 | |
| ttx | markwash: so you had a question, before mordred leaves | 21:10 |
| markwash | so, its about time to make some backwards incompatible changes in python-glanceclient | 21:10 |
| markwash | and release it as 1.0 | 21:11 |
| markwash | but there are lots of those, and its hard to pick a time in master to just say "okay now we don't release until we have every backwards-breaking change we want" | 21:11 |
| markwash | so it would be cool to use branches in gerrit to deal with that | 21:11 |
| mordred | well... | 21:11 |
| ttx | so.. my understanding was that doing backward-incompat changes in a client library was a really bad idea, due to the way we encourage people to use those | 21:11 |
| mordred | I have two sets of thoughts | 21:11 |
| stevebaker | markwash: can you make old and new parallel-installable? | 21:11 |
| mordred | one is that we do have the capabilities of doing branches and making releases with a major rev increase | 21:12 |
| lifeless | markwash: why do you need to make backward incompat changes? | 21:12 |
| mordred | however, what ttx said is my main concern | 21:12 |
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| mordred | which is that backwards incompat changes in client libraries is GIANTLY disruptive to people | 21:12 |
| ttx | UX! | 21:12 |
| lifeless | markwash: there will always be backwards incompat changes desired. | 21:12 |
| lifeless | markwash: can we do it gracefully over (say) a 1 year deprecation period | 21:12 |
| notmyname | isn't the whole point of semantic versioning to be able to easily communicate when there are such changes? | 21:12 |
| lifeless | notmyname: it is, but it doesn't make doing it free :) | 21:13 |
| mordred | it is. we should definitely rev the major version if we make such a change | 21:13 |
| notmyname | no, absolutely. it shouldn't be encouraged, but it's a good tool to have | 21:13 |
| mordred | the thing is - we have multiple different consumers | 21:13 |
| markwash | ttx, how are we trying to encourage people to use those? | 21:13 |
| notmyname | and not something to be feared | 21:13 |
| markwash | I'm a little lost | 21:13 |
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| mordred | one of them are our end users (of which openstack-infra is) | 21:13 |
| jeblair | markwash: specifically, this is about backwards-incompat changes to the _python_ api provided by python-glanceclient, right? (not anything to do with the wire protocol)? | 21:13 |
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| markwash | jeblair: right | 21:13 |
| ttx | notmyname, markwash: mordred sold me to the client library versioning system by telling me we would never have more than one branch to support (no stable branch for client stuff) | 21:14 |
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| david-lyle | so the http part of the client maintains compatibility? | 21:14 |
| markwash | well, I'm not saying I necessarily need to have two active branches at the same time. . just I need a place to gather changes and then eventually pull the trigger on glanceclient 1.0 | 21:14 |
| dolphm | keystoneclient is moving towards a separate execution path with features that would otherwise be backwards-incompatible and 1.0-ish | 21:14 |
| stevebaker | there is also the cli interface to consider | 21:15 |
| ttx | notmyname, markwash: I fear that we'd create a reason for people to NOT use the latest version, hence the need to have stable branches to say, backport security fixes | 21:15 |
| dolphm | and we're going to properly deprecate and support the current execution path for a couple of releases of the services (i.e. 1 year) | 21:15 |
| mordred | I do not think that this is the same as my opposition to stable/grizzly type branches | 21:15 |
| mordred | saying "this is the grizzly client library" is just stupid | 21:15 |
| mordred | and makes no sense | 21:15 |
| mordred | having a stable/0.0 branch after having released a 1.0 for security fixes isn't silly from a dev perspective | 21:16 |
| ttx | markwash: you can use a feature branch to develop elsewhere than in master, if that's what you mean | 21:16 |
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| mordred | the thing I'm more concerned with is the idea that we need user-facing incompat changes | 21:16 |
| markwash | so I'm pretty strict about those changes not landing, for example I had to revert a change to the default page size | 21:16 |
| markwash | you can see why I'd like to move changes like that into a major release | 21:16 |
| jeblair | mordred: agreed, i believe that is what we discussed possibly needing to do in this situation (i'm not sure we'd call it stable/0.0, or something else, but that idea)) | 21:17 |
| mordred | especially as it relates to pinning in our server projects | 21:17 |
| mordred | and, specifically... | 21:17 |
| mordred | what it means for grating | 21:17 |
| mordred | gating | 21:17 |
| mordred | on stable/* releases in devstack | 21:17 |
| lifeless | markwash: I'm confused why these changes are tied to 1.0 | 21:17 |
| notmyname | mordred: wouldn't that be a feature of the requirements for a server project? | 21:17 |
| jeblair | mordred: i assume stable/* releases would need to pin to <1.0 ? | 21:17 |
| mordred | lifeless: it's a major version bump | 21:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: right. but then how do we gate stable/* | 21:18 |
| lifeless | mordred: I got that much :) | 21:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: and how do we test cahnges to stable/0.0 ? | 21:18 |
| jeblair | mordred: indeed, we would try to pull stable/grizzly, fail, and fall back on master. | 21:18 |
| ttx | I think tat opens a whoel can of worms. Might be workable, but we won't solve it in meeting | 21:18 |
| mordred | jeblair: because master *client will no longer be able to participate in the gate combo | 21:18 |
| lifeless | but in my head we should not be breaking up to date clients with a major version bump | 21:18 |
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| mordred | jeblair: but once a 1.0 is cut that's not compat, and we have a version pin in stable/grizzly that's <1.0 | 21:18 |
| mordred | we've got an issue with our automation | 21:19 |
| lifeless | we should get the new functionality it. Deprecate the old. Wait. Then bump the major version and remove teh deprecated things. | 21:19 |
| mordred | I think we need to sort out the exact impacts | 21:19 |
| mordred | and then come back with some suggestions | 21:19 |
| notmyname | mordred: it's like you need a good dependency solver ;-) | 21:19 |
| mordred | notmyname: it's more complex than that | 21:19 |
| lifeless | if the 'Wait' is as long or longer than our support period for stable branches... | 21:19 |
| jgriffith | lifeless: +1 | 21:19 |
| lifeless | we'll have no issue at all. | 21:19 |
| markwash | lifeless: that's what I've done I think. . . | 21:19 |
| ttx | lifeless: yes, I'd prefer slow deprecation too | 21:19 |
| jgriffith | lifeless: re the deprecation cycle | 21:19 |
| mordred | notmyname: it actually has nothing to do with pip versions | 21:19 |
| mordred | it has to do with how we combine branch versions in the gate | 21:19 |
| dolphm | markwash: can you support a new way to instantiate the client to allow consumers to indicate which behavior of the client they expect? (and support both old and new) | 21:19 |
| lifeless | so there shouldn't be any need to change gate stuff, no? | 21:19 |
| notmyname | mordred: actually it could if a particular project isn't using 1.0 yet | 21:19 |
| lifeless | markwash: cool | 21:20 |
| jeblair | mordred: the last time we talked about this, i don't believe server projects _used_ client libs. now they do, and it has complicated our proposed solution. | 21:20 |
| dolphm | markwash: that way the gate still works and you allow for people to opt-in to a user experience | 21:20 |
| markwash | lifeless: well, there are things that have been deprecated for a long time (like the legacy glance client) and also things that are just minor but I'm strict about them (i.e. default page sizes for listing images) | 21:20 |
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| ttx | mordred, markwash: should we continue this on ML ? I don'ty want to spend the whole meeting on it, especially as we are still trying to grasp what that would cascade-trigger | 21:21 |
| lifeless | markwash: so the acid test for me is 'is someone using current glance client APIs going to still work with 1.0' | 21:21 |
| lifeless | markwash: if the answer is 'yes', then it's graceful. | 21:21 |
| lifeless | markwash: if the answer is 'no', then it's disruptive | 21:21 |
| markwash | ttx: I would love it if someone would try to summarize briefly what on earth was said :-) | 21:21 |
| ttx | markwash: i'm pretty sure mordred can do that | 21:22 |
| dolphm | lifeless: 'forever' or 'for a reasonable period of time' ? | 21:22 |
| markwash | like "no never make backwards compatible changes" | 21:22 |
| * mordred has to run... | 21:22 | |
| markwash | or "gate doesn't work with branches" | 21:22 |
| markwash | or something :-) | 21:22 |
| lifeless | dolphm: at the time the discussion for releasing a major version bump is happening | 21:22 |
| ttx | mordred: how about you summarize the problem on a ML thread and continue discussion there ? | 21:22 |
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| jeblair | lifeless: i agree that a deprecation cycle longer than our support cycle eliminates many problems. :) | 21:22 |
| markwash | s/compatible/incompatible/ in case that wasn't clear | 21:22 |
| lifeless | dolphm: major version bumps are where compat is broken, and IMO it's fine to break compat - gracefully. Which is where the deprecation + grace period comes in. | 21:22 |
| dolphm | lifeless: ++ | 21:23 |
| dolphm | lifeless: that's the approach keystoneclient is taking | 21:23 |
| lifeless | and I think this is a /feature/ not a gate limitation. | 21:23 |
| lifeless | It's better for our users. | 21:23 |
| lifeless | It's better for deployers. | 21:23 |
| ttx | #action mordred to summarize problem and push discussion on ML | 21:23 |
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| ttx | let's move on, please | 21:23 |
| lifeless | It's better for distributors. | 21:23 |
| ttx | since we lost mordred he got assigned the action | 21:23 |
| ttx | #topic Finalizing icehouse release schedule | 21:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Finalizing icehouse release schedule (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:24 | |
| ttx | The proposed schedule, as discussed at the design summit, is here: | 21:24 |
| ttx | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule | 21:24 |
| ttx | Two things I wanted to insist on: | 21:24 |
| ttx | icehouse-1 is placed on December 5, which means features completed by December 3 | 21:24 |
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| russellb | 2 weeks, eep | 21:24 |
| ttx | That's only two weeks... so icehouse-1 can mostly be used to tag work that landed really early on (and even pre-summit) in icehouse | 21:24 |
| ttx | which I think is fine, now that I think more of it | 21:25 |
| dolphm | one of which is thanksgiving week in the US | 21:25 |
| russellb | dolphm: good point, productivity-- for us here | 21:25 |
| ttx | the other thing I'd like to have some agreement on is the recommended "off" week. | 21:25 |
| ttx | FTR this would be a week where we'd actually encourage people to take time off OpenStack development / review, hopefully resulting in a "light" week to catch up | 21:25 |
| jd__ | yep, icehouse-1 seems so close and short that almost nothing will target it | 21:25 |
| dolphm | which means if it's not done this week, it won't stand much of a chance seeing iteration | 21:25 |
| ttx | (jd__: but pushing it back one week would just result in more questions asking what to target to it) | 21:26 |
| ttx | (so using it to clean up the slate before starting real work is fine by me) | 21:26 |
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| ttx | On the ML thread there was a slight preference for the middle week, which is definitely less scary if we have to handle post-release fires | 21:26 |
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| ttx | any string objection to that one ? | 21:27 |
| ttx | or strong ? | 21:27 |
| annegentle | ttx: I'd be slightly leaning towards the middle week | 21:27 |
| annegentle | ttx: but again I think week after summit may make more sense overall | 21:27 |
| ttx | annegentle: I'll let you know where I go for vacation | 21:27 |
| annegentle | ttx: heh | 21:27 |
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| russellb | 2 weeks off then | 21:28 |
| hub_cap | ++ | 21:28 |
| ttx | ok, middle week it is then | 21:28 |
| ttx | and schedule considered approved | 21:28 |
| russellb | \o/ | 21:28 |
| ttx | unless someone objects and discovered a man was burning on Apr 16 or something | 21:29 |
| ttx | #topic Icehouse roadmapping | 21:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Icehouse roadmapping (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:29 | |
| ttx | I talked to you all earlier today, the goal being to have a clear roadmap for icehouse-1 today | 21:29 |
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| ttx | the proximity of it paradoxically makes it easier to do | 21:29 |
| ttx | since anything unsure can safely be bumped to i-2 | 21:30 |
| ttx | The goal is to cover the missing stuff and i-2/i-3 targeting in the following weeks | 21:30 |
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| ttx | I'll switch http://status.openstack.org/release/ to icehouse ASAP tomorrow | 21:30 |
| lifeless | ttx: you didn't talk to me :P | 21:30 |
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| ttx | lifeless: that's because you're not part of the integrated release | 21:31 |
| ttx | (yet) | 21:31 |
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| ttx | Most projects have pretty complete i-1 plans by now | 21:31 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: neutron still needs some love | 21:32 |
| ttx | https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/icehouse-1 | 21:32 |
| lifeless | ttx: I was teasing. I know :) | 21:32 |
| ttx | same for heat | 21:33 |
| ttx | https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/icehouse-1 | 21:33 |
| ttx | (should set priorities to those undefined ones) | 21:33 |
| markmcclain | ttx: it's still on my list for today | 21:33 |
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| ttx | and cinder | 21:33 |
| * stevebaker is going through heat now | 21:33 | |
| ttx | https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/icehouse-1 | 21:33 |
| ttx | most of the others (including nova !) are in pretty good shape | 21:33 |
| jgriffith | ttx: working on it | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | ttx: will be set later today | 21:34 |
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| russellb | i think we have nova in better shape for i1 at least | 21:34 |
| ttx | so, for next week... Would be great to have most blueprints filed, targeted and prioritized so that we can start having a good picture of what will likely be in icehouse | 21:34 |
| ttx | might take more than a week though | 21:34 |
| ttx | questions on the roadmapping ? | 21:35 |
| ttx | I guess not | 21:36 |
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| ttx | #topic Blocked blueprints (a.k.a. "Red Flag District") | 21:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blocked blueprints (a.k.a. "Red Flag District") (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:36 | |
| russellb | ha. | 21:36 |
| ttx | so this will be a recurrent topic | 21:36 |
| ttx | We'll use "Blocked" status to flag blueprints that are blocked on cross-project dependencies and need to be discussed in meeting | 21:36 |
| ttx | like https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/user-locale-api | 21:37 |
| ttx | dolphm: wanted to raise this one ? | 21:37 |
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| dolphm | yep -- we had this leftover from havana development | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | there's some work going on in oslo related to this, too | 21:37 |
| dolphm | Accept-Language header support was disabled late in the cycle across all projects | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/+spec/i18n-messages | 21:38 |
| dolphm | i left the bp open for icehouse, but it's effectively blocked by the above ^ | 21:38 |
| dolphm | and then re-enabling in gettext init | 21:39 |
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| dhellmann | a changeset went up earlier today for oslo | 21:40 |
| dolphm | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56093/ ? | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | I need to review it, but based on the description I got in a separate email I may have some issues with the implementation. | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 21:40 |
| ttx | dhellmann: i18n-messages is targeted to i-2 | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | we're still having the philosophical discussion about whether a translatable message, with its state, *is* a unicode object or *has* a unicode object | 21:41 |
| ttx | dolphm: do you need it completed earlier ? | 21:41 |
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| dolphm | ttx: no | 21:41 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: yes, because I wasn't sure I was going to be able to get consensus on an implementation before then | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | or at least by i-1, I should say | 21:41 |
| dolphm | alright, if we're in the philosophy debate phase, i'll bump to i2 for sure :) | 21:41 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: I welcome your input on that :-) | 21:41 |
| dolphm | dhellmann: i'll send bknudson your way :) | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | dolphm: please! | 21:42 |
| ttx | any other cross-project concern anyone wants to raise ? | 21:42 |
| ttx | fyi I'm working on making rootwrap a standalone package in i-1 (rather than oslo-incubator copy) | 21:42 |
| ttx | so I'll probably make neutron/cinder/nova switch to using that during i-2 timeframe | 21:42 |
| dolphm | ttx: does grenade count? | 21:43 |
| ttx | dolphm: I would say yes | 21:44 |
| dolphm | i tried to get dtroyer's attention during the keystone meeting, but no go | 21:44 |
| dolphm | we ran into an upgrade issue in master, we THINK caused by attempting to go from grizzly -> master | 21:44 |
| ttx | grenade is part of QA so sdague should be able to give you advice | 21:44 |
| dolphm | there's a patchset in review that should resolve | 21:44 |
| dolphm | our bug- https://bugs.launchpad.net/grenade/+bug/1252057 | 21:44 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1252057 in grenade "keystoneclient requirements update fails grenade because using stable/grizzly" [Undecided,New] | 21:44 |
| dolphm | dprince's patch - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57066/ | 21:45 |
| dolphm | to openstack-infra/devstack-gate ^ | 21:45 |
| sdague | yeh, maurosr is working on a patch to flip us to havana as the stable branch, there were a few kinks in this system as it will be the first time running multiple grenade configs | 21:45 |
| dolphm | sdague: ah cool | 21:46 |
| dolphm | that's all from me then :) | 21:46 |
| ttx | any other red flag / concern ? | 21:46 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:47 | |
| ttx | So for this cycle we currently have Ironic, Marconi and Savanna in incubation. | 21:47 |
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| ttx | Do we have people from those projects around ? | 21:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:48 |
| ttx | Hey SergeyLukjanov, must be late where you are | 21:48 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: When do you plan to align internal savanna releases to the common milestones ? | 21:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, starting from the i1 | 21:48 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: oh, great | 21:49 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: what about you tag this one, and I'll take over and start doing it by icehouse-2 ? | 21:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we're cleaning up LP to have issues/bps mapped to corresponing milestones | 21:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, great, ok for me | 21:50 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: fwiw the icehouse-1 tag is actually "2014.1.b1" | 21:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, got it | 21:51 |
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| devananda | o/ | 21:51 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: if you have questions, just let me know | 21:51 |
| ttx | devananda: is Ironic getting closer to shippable state ? | 21:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, sure, thx | 21:52 |
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| devananda | ttx: yep. I should be doing a client release soon, too | 21:52 |
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| devananda | ttx: we're still working on the nova driver and some bits for the image deployment glue, but all other things seem good | 21:52 |
| ttx | devananda: When do you plan ro be able to align internal ironic releases to the common milestones ? | 21:52 |
| ttx | icehouse-2 ? | 21:52 |
| devananda | ttx: yes, i-2. | 21:53 |
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| ttx | sounds good to me | 21:53 |
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| ttx | kgriffiths is not around, anyhone speaking for Marconi ? | 21:54 |
| ttx | what's wrong with my fingers today | 21:54 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:55 | |
| ttx | Will close the Horizon PTL election in 4 minutes, so here is your last chance to vote if you're an Horizon ATC | 21:55 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, btw 0200 AM in my tz :) | 21:55 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: wow, you're farther east than I thought | 21:56 |
| devananda | ttx: do you have scripts to create milestones for incubated projects? Ironic doesn't have i2/i3 yet | 21:56 |
| ttx | devananda: I have scripts, but if it's just to create two milestones you better do it by hand | 21:57 |
| devananda | ttx: ack | 21:57 |
| ttx | devananda: for the curious, script at https://github.com/ttx/openstack-releasing/blob/master/create_milestones.py | 21:57 |
| ttx | devananda: but in this case just go to https://launchpad.net/ironic/icehouse and create them | 21:58 |
| ttx | ("create milestone") | 21:58 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I'm using some of this scripts for moving bugs and checking tarballs, it's really useful | 21:58 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | thx for ttx | 21:58 |
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| ttx | I shall move them under openstack/ somewhere as part of the relmgt program | 21:59 |
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| ttx | closing horizon PTl election in 10 seconds | 21:59 |
| ttx | david-lyle: looks like you win | 21:59 |
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| ttx | #link http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?id=E_cd16dd051e519ef2 | 21:59 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, congratulations | 22:00 |
| ttx | and that closes our meeting, thanks everyone | 22:00 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, congrats! | 22:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 22:00:25 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-11-19-21.04.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-11-19-21.04.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-11-19-21.04.log.html | 22:00 |
| david-lyle | thanks mrunge! | 22:00 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, well deserved! | 22:00 |
| david-lyle | I truly appreciate you running | 22:00 |
| bdehamer | david-lyle, congrats | 22:00 |
| julim | congrats david-lyle | 22:01 |
| anteaya | david-lyle mrunge good election! | 22:01 |
| jpich | david-lyle, congratulations | 22:01 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, I truly appreciate, you won! | 22:01 |
| david-lyle | thanks everyone | 22:01 |
| david-lyle | #startmeeting Horizon | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 19 22:01:43 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is david-lyle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:01 |
| jcoufal | o/ | 22:01 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: congrats | 22:02 |
| lsmola | hello | 22:02 |
| julim | hi all | 22:02 |
| jtomasek | hey | 22:02 |
| jtomasek | congrats david-lyle | 22:02 |
| david-lyle | Hello everyone! I now know none of you have any sense, at least no the majority of you | 22:02 |
| bdehamer | hello | 22:02 |
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| devlaps | o/ | 22:03 |
| david-lyle | I'll do my best | 22:03 |
| david-lyle | I started an agenda at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Horizon | 22:04 |
| jomara | congrats! | 22:04 |
| david-lyle | As I said in the last meeting please add your agenda items there in the week prior to the meetings | 22:04 |
| david-lyle | But I'm going to insert a topic first | 22:05 |
| david-lyle | #topic Blueprints | 22:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:05 | |
| david-lyle | I was hoping to wait until the election was concluded to have the blueprints prioritized, but Icehouse-1 is on Dec 5 (feature freeze Dec 3) and we needed a more rational plan for icehouse-1 other than everything. So I rearranged some bps. https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/icehouse-1 | 22:05 |
| david-lyle | Basically, if there wasn't code already up for review it got bumped | 22:06 |
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| david-lyle | that's not to say things can't get added back in, but there's already a lot to review out there | 22:06 |
| david-lyle | Is anyone close with another BP that they think should be in the list? | 22:06 |
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| david-lyle | silence sounds like a no | 22:07 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: what about Navigation, I belive we might start with implementation fairly soon | 22:07 |
| david-lyle | jcoufal: I think we can, but <2 weeks seemed tight | 22:08 |
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| jcoufal | david-lyle: alright, no need to push it | 22:08 |
| david-lyle | I don't think early i-2 is any worse | 22:08 |
| jcoufal | agreed | 22:08 |
| david-lyle | anything on the list that is problematic? | 22:08 |
| david-lyle | actually, I see one | 22:08 |
| david-lyle | I think the Hyper-V RDP is not in nova yet, I need to follow up on that | 22:09 |
| david-lyle | so that may move out too | 22:09 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: inline editation - I am not sure about the very latest state, but last thing I saw needed more work to do | 22:09 |
| jcoufal | maybe lsmola might say more...? | 22:10 |
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| lsmola | yeah true, my old patch | 22:10 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, i have almost forgot it :-) | 22:10 |
| mrunge | the last time, I saw that, it was quite good | 22:10 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, yeah that stands there and was prepared in H3 | 22:10 |
| jomara | david-lyle: there's already a PR for the angular blueprint (the blueprint showed up after the PR) and its not on the list, but we have a separate agenda item to discuss that | 22:10 |
| david-lyle | ok, I remember reviewing it, but wanted to try it out, and never got to it. Do you think it needs help? | 22:11 |
| mrunge | lsmola, what was the issue, why wasn't that approved? | 22:11 |
| jpich | I remember it was pretty neat when I tried it last, too. Must review again | 22:11 |
| mrunge | I don't remember any more | 22:11 |
| jpich | Too close to feature freeze? | 22:11 |
| mrunge | yes, it worked quite well | 22:11 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, would be good to merge it at some point :-) otherwise it will rebase me to death :-D | 22:11 |
| david-lyle | I think that was the primary concern | 22:11 |
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| mrunge | I tested it in a very early state | 22:12 |
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| jcoufal | alright, then it looks like achievable BP, sorry for confusion :) | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | may need a rebase now, but you're still good with the idea lsmola? | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | jcoufal: good to be clear on it | 22:12 |
| david-lyle | #topic IA proposal | 22:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "IA proposal (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:13 | |
| lsmola | david-lyle, ok, i can rebase it tomorrow | 22:13 |
| david-lyle | So last meeting I took on a task to propose some IA guidelines. | 22:13 |
| david-lyle | Short story, I failed to get that far | 22:13 |
| jcoufal | Neither me. I need to revisit that as well | 22:14 |
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| david-lyle | Hopefully, jcoufal and others can help me with that this week and we can at least introduce it next meeting | 22:14 |
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| jcoufal | david-lyle: yeah, we should take a stab on that | 22:14 |
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| jcoufal | at least some first draft | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | I do think it's important to set up the broad guidelines at least and maybe haggle the finer points a little later | 22:15 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: +1 | 22:15 |
| julim | +1 | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | thanks jcoufal | 22:15 |
| julim | happy to help | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | any help is appreciated julim | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | I think we just need to reconcile the proposals | 22:16 |
| david-lyle | #topic Discuss using AngularJS | 22:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss using AngularJS (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:16 | |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: we can discuss here: http://ask-openstackux.rhcloud.com/question/1/openstack-ui-information-architecture/ | 22:16 |
| jcoufal | (belongs to previous topic) | 22:16 |
| david-lyle | thanks jcoufal | 22:16 |
| david-lyle | So this topic should probably include Discuss non-JS support soft requirement | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | because they hinge on each other | 22:17 |
| david-lyle | I've been looking into the non-js requirement and got some valuable feedback from Gabriel regarding the matter too | 22:17 |
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| david-lyle | The core of that requirement stems from accessibility standards that are over 6 years old | 22:18 |
| david-lyle | when JavaScript support in browsers was not very uniform | 22:18 |
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| david-lyle | That said, there may be some government based installations that still are tied to antiquated browsers, regulations | 22:19 |
| jcoufal | yeah, it's very common for all the accessibility documents - they are very old, especially from governments | 22:19 |
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| bdehamer | So, the issue is not no-js specifically -- it's more about accessibility | 22:19 |
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| david-lyle | Well, I've read both | 22:20 |
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| david-lyle | but I think the main issue is accessibility | 22:20 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, so does it mean it runs some old version of openstack? | 22:20 |
| jtomasek | and accessibility topic has been also touched here: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-November/018887.html | 22:20 |
| david-lyle | which I think we can address with client-side means | 22:20 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: but since openstack UI is not supported in antique browsers we don't have to care about that anyway, right? | 22:20 |
| mrunge | I don't think it's related to OpenStack at all | 22:20 |
| david-lyle | not openstack, say IE 2 | 22:21 |
| lsmola | :-O | 22:21 |
| mrunge | and IMHO, if you want to sell something to governments, your stuff needs to be accessible | 22:21 |
| david-lyle | that's not a real example of course, but say a group that is barred from having JS enabled | 22:21 |
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| mrunge | i.e. readable by screen readers | 22:21 |
| david-lyle | I think mrunge is right | 22:21 |
| david-lyle | We don't support lower end browsers already | 22:22 |
| jtomasek | according to what jomara sent to the discussion, the javascript is not a blocker for accessibility and screenreaders | 22:22 |
| jomara | screen readers and JS can get along, if you design your application well | 22:22 |
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| david-lyle | so as long as screen readers are supported, I think we can move forward | 22:22 |
| jtomasek | +! | 22:22 |
| jtomasek | +1 | 22:22 |
| mrunge | in my experience, the group of folks (0.2% or so) will shout out loudly | 22:22 |
| Toshi | +1 | 22:22 |
| mrunge | when cut off | 22:22 |
| david-lyle | I would like to take it slowly though | 22:22 |
| jcoufal | +1, if we can support screen readers, we don't have to support non-js | 22:23 |
| mrunge | but agreed +1 | 22:23 |
| jomara | +1 to that | 22:23 |
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| lsmola | +1 | 22:23 |
| david-lyle | I have a large concern that we are moving away from the core coding strength of OpenStack which is python | 22:23 |
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| jtomasek | david-lyle: yes we should maintain some affordable level of non-js support (graceful degradation) | 22:23 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, with angular? | 22:23 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle: I wouldn't like to see everything JS based | 22:24 |
| jtomasek | we should definitely not try to convert horizon to pure js single page application | 22:24 |
| david-lyle | The more involved the client side becomes, the less likely new project teams like Heat, Trove will be able to contribute the base UI implementation of their support | 22:24 |
| mrunge | yupp, completely agree | 22:24 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, well, there is base UI implementation | 22:25 |
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| jomara | the angular implementation only supplants the *existing* js implementation | 22:25 |
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| david-lyle | which would create a high burden on an already taxed Horizon development team | 22:25 |
| david-lyle | jomara: for now, right? | 22:25 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, and there are fancy pages based on well written and tested angular libraries | 22:25 |
| david-lyle | It certainly could | 22:25 |
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| jtomasek | david-lyle: let's keep js to UI features only? (matches the intent of using angular directives) | 22:26 |
| jomara | for now / the foreseeable future - theres quite a bit of work to do | 22:26 |
| david-lyle | I think that sounds like a great rule of thumb | 22:26 |
| david-lyle | jtomasek | 22:26 |
| david-lyle | Is there anyone that has a strong concern with this direction? | 22:26 |
| jcoufal | +1 | 22:26 |
| devlaps | +1 | 22:27 |
| lsmola | +5 | 22:27 |
| jcoufal | -4 lsmola | 22:27 |
| lsmola | hehe | 22:27 |
| bdehamer | +1 | 22:27 |
| jomara | i was going to rewrite the entire app in node js, but i guess i'll stop now =( | 22:27 |
| Toshi | +1 | 22:27 |
| julim | +1 | 22:27 |
| jomara | +1 | 22:27 |
| jomara | (joking) | 22:27 |
| lsmola | jcoufal, thanks for auto correction | 22:27 |
| david-lyle | :) | 22:27 |
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| david-lyle | So, let's review jomara's change, and I'll add it back to target i-1 | 22:28 |
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| jomara | great - im still working on patch2, itll probably be tomorrow | 22:28 |
| jcoufal | \o/ | 22:29 |
| lsmola | yaay | 22:29 |
| david-lyle | just remember... accessibility | 22:29 |
| david-lyle | :) | 22:29 |
| jomara | maxv gave me a bunch of great feedback i need to fix | 22:29 |
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| david-lyle | #topic Horizon/Openstack-dashboard split | 22:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizon/Openstack-dashboard split (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:30 | |
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| david-lyle | This was discussed at the summit and I talked to mordred this morning about it. | 22:30 |
| mrunge | I must admit, I havenÄt had the time to put more effort into that | 22:30 |
| david-lyle | I think he's not online right now | 22:31 |
| mrunge | s/Ä/'/ | 22:31 |
| david-lyle | mrunge no worries | 22:31 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle, at least, mordred is listed here | 22:31 |
| mrunge | in the users list | 22:31 |
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| david-lyle | he has an idea of just leaving the horizon repo as is with openstack-dashboard below it and stripping out the current horizon/horizon dir and renaming that | 22:32 |
| david-lyle | he has a server that's always on | 22:32 |
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| mrunge | I see | 22:32 |
| david-lyle | that would minimize package compatibility problems going forward | 22:32 |
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| jcoufal | well the dashboard itself is a bit confusing name though | 22:33 |
| jcoufal | if we are going to rename, I would do it properly | 22:33 |
| david-lyle | we could even rename the openstack_dashboard dir if we wanted to | 22:33 |
| david-lyle | well, we want the Horizon name to stick with the actual UI, that would accomplish that | 22:33 |
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| david-lyle | the stripped out h/h directory would get the new name and package | 22:34 |
| david-lyle | and become a dependency | 22:34 |
| mrunge | If I could choose, I would rename both | 22:34 |
| bdehamer | any thoughts on what the new name for h/h would be? | 22:34 |
| lsmola | hmm I kinda like Horizon for UI | 22:34 |
| mrunge | to confuse everyone | 22:34 |
| lsmola | hehe | 22:34 |
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| jpich | Seems fine to me - keeping 'openstack_dashboard' as a directory would avoid a lot of renaming in our codebase and for already existing plugins who consume us | 22:34 |
| david-lyle | his suggestion was just django-horizon or something | 22:35 |
| jcoufal | right, but then openstack_dashboard dir doesn't make big sense then | 22:35 |
| jpich | david-lyle: Oh, so keep 'horizon' also in the 'framework-bits' name? | 22:35 |
| jcoufal | yeah, something like django-ui-lib, django-horizon-lib, or similar :) | 22:35 |
| mrunge | my intention was to strip out the outer horizon dir at all | 22:35 |
| david-lyle | but it doesn't really matter either way what the directory is called, it need to be there | 22:35 |
| david-lyle | mrunge, you still likely want the directory | 22:36 |
| mrunge | then we'd have another horizon (the framework) and openstack_dashboard for the UI stuff | 22:36 |
| jpich | These conversations get confusing quickly | 22:36 |
| mrunge | exactly jpich | 22:36 |
| lsmola | yeah | 22:36 |
| bdehamer | yeah, I think I just got lost | 22:37 |
| david-lyle | I think we need to mark it up somewhere rather than in just text | 22:37 |
| jcoufal | diagram would help :) | 22:37 |
| jpich | Pictures :-) Diagrams! | 22:37 |
| julim | +1 | 22:37 |
| mrunge | nooo. if you can't express in just a few words ;-) | 22:37 |
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| david-lyle | two packages horizon and django-horizon | 22:38 |
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| lsmola | yep | 22:38 |
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| david-lyle | horizon is the same as today | 22:38 |
| mrunge | at least I'd call it openstack-horizon | 22:39 |
| david-lyle | except the second horizon directory is stripped out into a new package called say django-horizon | 22:39 |
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| mrunge | but, yes! | 22:39 |
| david-lyle | my concern was the upgrade path for existing installs | 22:39 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, package-wise that shouldnÄt be a problem at all | 22:39 |
| david-lyle | if we change the name and directory structure we push a lot of work outside of just the Horizon team | 22:39 |
| lsmola | true | 22:40 |
| jtomasek | just a point, django-horizon should then undergo some changes eg moving js files and _scripts.html into horizon, there might be more places that will need these decisions | 22:40 |
| david-lyle | where if it were still Horizon (which people associate with the UI anyway) they just upgrade, and pull down a new dependency | 22:40 |
| david-lyle | jtomasek: yes there are some finer details, ack | 22:40 |
| mrunge | as someone to do the work outside: that's just a matter of an hour or so | 22:41 |
| jpich | jtomasek: Definitely some things need to be moved around still | 22:41 |
| mrunge | IMHO more confusing or requiring work would be the static stuff, such as js .less etc.... | 22:41 |
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| david-lyle | yes, that will be trickier, because essentially both assume those files are present | 22:42 |
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| david-lyle | alright, mrunge I believe you own this one anyway, correct? | 22:43 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle, own what? | 22:43 |
| lsmola | the bp? | 22:43 |
| david-lyle | the bp, or did you just propose? | 22:44 |
| mrunge | yupp | 22:44 |
| mrunge | both | 22:44 |
| david-lyle | we can just move forward commenting in the blueprint then | 22:44 |
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| david-lyle | and you can determine what's rational :) | 22:45 |
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| lsmola | cool | 22:45 |
| jpich | ...and add a link to a diagram :-) | 22:45 |
| lsmola | hehe | 22:45 |
| david-lyle | will do | 22:45 |
| jcoufal | colors included please :) | 22:45 |
| * david-lyle needs to remember to generate diagram | 22:46 | |
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| jtomasek | jcoufal can help you, he likes drawing rectangles :) | 22:46 |
| david-lyle | colored rectangles? | 22:46 |
| jcoufal | yeah, but I have problems with circles :-/ | 22:46 |
| jtomasek | sure | 22:46 |
| jtomasek | haha | 22:46 |
| david-lyle | I hear color's important | 22:47 |
| jpich | lol | 22:47 |
| david-lyle | #topic Open Discussion | 22:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:47 | |
| lsmola | i have a quick one | 22:47 |
| lsmola | could you review a https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/horizon-reusable-charts | 22:47 |
| david-lyle | lsmola: sure | 22:47 |
| lsmola | there is a WIP review that shows the chart in action with mock data | 22:48 |
| lsmola | real overview pages will land in I2 | 22:48 |
| david-lyle | oh yeah, reviews. Thanks! | 22:48 |
| david-lyle | since, the list of bp's for i-1 is only items up for review, please try to have a go at them | 22:49 |
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| david-lyle | including reusable-charts | 22:49 |
| lsmola | cool :-) | 22:49 |
| lsmola | thank youuu :-) | 22:49 |
| david-lyle | some of lsmola's follow on work builds on those charts | 22:49 |
| david-lyle | and no I have reviewed them either yet | 22:49 |
| jtomasek | just an update on Bootstrap 3, saschpe told me he's tackling last bugs in Lesscpy, I'll make sure I test it, so we're moving on! | 22:50 |
| david-lyle | but I know how the rest of my week is looking :) | 22:50 |
| david-lyle | jtomasek: great news | 22:50 |
| jpich | jtomasek: Awesome! | 22:50 |
| jcoufal | ! go Botstrap 3 go! | 22:50 |
| openstack | jcoufal: Error: "go" is not a valid command. | 22:50 |
| jcoufal | lol :) | 22:50 |
| jpich | go should totally be a valid command | 22:50 |
| lsmola | :-) | 22:51 |
| david-lyle | the most basic of commands | 22:51 |
| lsmola | jtomasek, cool | 22:51 |
| jcoufal | this is awesome | 22:51 |
| jcoufal | it will generate other BP which are blocked | 22:51 |
| jcoufal | less decomposition, icon-font, etc | 22:52 |
| jomara | horizon + wingdings? | 22:52 |
| jcoufal | s/generate/unleash | 22:52 |
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| david-lyle | +1 wingdings | 22:52 |
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| jcoufal | if I get at least five other +1s, I will take that seriously :) | 22:53 |
| jcoufal | more voters for wingdings? | 22:53 |
| jomara | +1 wingdings | 22:53 |
| mrunge | anything else? | 22:54 |
| lsmola | lol | 22:54 |
| david-lyle | so object browsing, is any one actively using this? | 22:54 |
| david-lyle | any would they be opposed to a wholesale rewrite to make it usable? | 22:54 |
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| jpich | I think kspear is using it, though making it better never sounds bad | 22:55 |
| david-lyle | ok, I will ping him | 22:55 |
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| jcoufal | reminds me - today in ML there started follow up thread on Search project, which is very related to Horizon | 22:56 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, never tried more than 2 objects :-) | 22:56 |
| jcoufal | I recommend everybody to read that, very interesting effort | 22:56 |
| david-lyle | lsmola: try nest objects | 22:56 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, :-O | 22:56 |
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| jcoufal | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-November/019742.html (Search Project) | 22:57 |
| david-lyle | yes the search project could provide a solution to limited filtering in the service APIs | 22:57 |
| jpich | The 2mn video is pretty cool | 22:58 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, jcoufal , cool, looking forward to that | 22:58 |
| david-lyle | I would think especially useful for admins, but also non-admins with larger domains/projects | 22:58 |
| david-lyle | it's pretty young currently, but there is strong potential there | 22:58 |
| julim | It would help not just admins but also navigation issues, filtering, etc. | 22:59 |
| julim | much needed I would say. | 22:59 |
| david-lyle | yes, but at least 2 releases away optimistically | 22:59 |
| lsmola | david-lyle, :-( | 23:00 |
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| mrunge | no honestly, lsmola | 23:00 |
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| jpich | I hope the thread generates some discussion from the other projects as well | 23:00 |
| jpich | Ok, we're overtime | 23:01 |
| david-lyle | Well, our time is almost up. I want to thank everyone for their vote of confidence. I would also like to thank mrunge for allowing us to have an election for PTL. I think that should be the case for all OpenStack projects. And I look forward to all of your help going forward in Icehouse. | 23:01 |
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| david-lyle | #endmeeting | 23:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 23:02:15 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-19-22.01.html | 23:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-19-22.01.txt | 23:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-11-19-22.01.log.html | 23:02 |
| jcoufal | thanks david-lyle and everybody | 23:02 |
| jpich | Sounds good. Thanks david-lyle! | 23:02 |
| lsmola | thanks everybody, good night | 23:02 |
| mrunge | thanks everybody! | 23:02 |
| julim | thanks all | 23:02 |
| jtomasek | thanks and good night! | 23:02 |
| jpich | Good night/day/breakfast everyone | 23:02 |
| devlaps | thanks all! | 23:02 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: is there something I need to do besides :webprefix: /some/uri to get the HTTP GET/POST/etc to show up? | 23:12 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: also, fyi, it looks like i needed to isntall oslo.sphinx ? | 23:15 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: oslo.sphinx is a surprising dependency, that may be unintentional | 23:17 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: are your controllers subclassed from pecan's RestController class? | 23:17 |
| devananda | dhellmann: yes | 23:17 |
| dhellmann | ok, they should just work then | 23:17 |
| dhellmann | it's about dinner time here, but if you put a branch somewhere and email me a link I can look at it in the am for you | 23:18 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ack. will do | 23:18 |
| devananda | thanks | 23:18 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: np | 23:21 |
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