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| TheJulia | So, I was pondering/wondering | 13:34 |
|---|---|---|
| TheJulia | Since we're no longer trying to move at warp speed, perhaps it is time to reconsider the coordinated release model and encourage a model where projects release at their own cadence but maybe still do a yearly alignment for a formal named release? | 13:35 |
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| evrardjp | TheJulia: +1 | 13:41 |
| evrardjp | There were multiple ideas in the past to promote this! | 13:41 |
| evrardjp | Putting projects in charge of the release isn't a bad idea, certainly for the most mature ones. | 13:42 |
| evrardjp | Of course, the release team should voice here, and maybe it shouldn't be an all or nothing (could be an opt-in) | 13:43 |
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| fungi | so switch from two coordinated releases a year to one, basically (with more intermediate releases) | 13:57 |
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| TheJulia | Yeah, basically | 14:39 |
| fungi | in the past it was asserted that ~nobody consumes/redistributes the intermediate releases, so that would effectively mean new features don't make it into the hands of users for a year instead of half a year, but that may not still be the case today | 14:44 |
| TheJulia | I guess, in part, I'm worried about burning folks out and setting appropriate cadence. | 14:46 |
| fungi | yep, a valid concern, for sure | 14:46 |
| TheJulia | I know some *now* do consume some intermediates, like ironic intermediates get consumed and shipped, so that enables new features to get consumed/used. At the same time, are people really shipping a full coordinated release every six months | 14:47 |
| TheJulia | because that is also a super heavy lift for any involved party as well | 14:47 |
| TheJulia | Consuming an intermediate where appropriate may be a lot easier and would help with things like upgrade stories in the grand scheme of things | 14:48 |
| TheJulia | deprecation and backporting rules would likely need to be revisited, but nothing particularly insane. Just thinking more from a human sanity/end user benefit standpoint. | 14:53 |
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| fungi | yeah, i really have no idea. like, what is rdo's release model? or ubuntu cloud's? | 14:55 |
| fungi | i know debian tries to update packages after the coordinated release and then apply stable point releases thereafter, but i don't really know much about any other distributors' models | 14:56 |
| fungi | part of it is also about things like how many versions of oslo.config are you going to package... do ironic's intermediate releases use the oslo libs from the previous coordinated release, or from the upcoming coordinated release? | 14:58 |
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| spotz | RDO is a trailing release model | 15:43 |
| spotz | fungi:^ | 15:47 |
| fungi | spotz: but does rdo also ship intermediate releases, like the ones ironic produces during the cycle leading up to the coordinated release? | 15:47 |
| spotz | fungi: I'd call it more like dailies then a set release | 15:53 |
| spotz | I can grab someone and pull them in here if you need all the specifics | 15:54 |
| fungi | got it, so snapshots of everything, but not the intermediate releases themselves | 15:54 |
| spotz | Not from what I've seen no | 15:54 |
| spotz | If we need them we can probably discuss it with the team | 15:55 |
| fungi | spotz: yeah, the bigger question is what it would mean for, say, rdo if we started focusing more on intermediate releases which happen at random times for different projects throughout the year | 15:55 |
| spotz | TRying to see who from the team isn't already marked as away for the weekend | 15:57 |
| spotz | Might need to be a Monday question | 15:58 |
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| fungi | i doubt it's urgent | 15:59 |
| spotz | Ok ykarel is here to ask fungi | 15:59 |
| ykarel | fungi, spotz, what's the question | 15:59 |
| fungi | ykarel: proposal from TheJulia starts here: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2021-03-19.log.html#t2021-03-19T13:34:45 | 16:00 |
| ykarel | reading | 16:01 |
| fungi | i'm mainly curious what that would mean for major distributors of openstack currently, rdo as an example | 16:01 |
| spotz | Which is where I started paying attention:) | 16:01 |
| fungi | data points like that would probably weigh into any such changes to openstack's overall release model | 16:02 |
| ykarel | fungi, as part of RDO release, we follow upstream releases, like for wallaby, clients and non-clients already released, RDO too built those tagged versions | 16:04 |
| ykarel | if a new release for a library get's released during release or post release we will get that build too | 16:04 |
| ykarel | we follow upper-constraints for this | 16:04 |
| ykarel | and for project which are not in u-c and follow rc model we pick latest releases | 16:05 |
| fungi | ykarel: got it, so for example ironic 16.2.0 as an intermediate release is shipped as part of a "wallaby preview" then? not as part of victoria because that's already branched and gets its own separate stable backports | 16:07 |
| ykarel | and the projects which are independent or not in u-c are picked latest and then updated only when maintainer requests | 16:07 |
| fungi | basically ironic has multiple releases in master in a given cycle, the last of which is included in the coordinated openstack release. just curious what the distribution of the earlier releases of ironic during the cycle is like in rdo | 16:08 |
| fungi | do end users of rdo ever see them, or do they only wind up with the coordinated release of ironic? | 16:08 |
| ykarel | fungi, for RDO release we will pick latest whenever we build it for wallay release | 16:08 |
| ykarel | we will do it during RC phase | 16:09 |
| spotz | ykarel: So those wouldn't be included in the 'daily' builds? | 16:10 |
| fungi | so if we went to yearly coordinated releases with a lot more projects doing intermediate releases from master at random times during the year prior to the coordinated release, rdo would probably still only ship the last of each of them which appear in the coordinated release? | 16:10 |
| spotz | I'm glad I invited you over! | 16:10 |
| ykarel | but NOTE ^ we are talking about CentOS CloudSIG release where we follow tag releases, there is RDO trunk where we follow commits from branch and releases don't matter in those case | 16:10 |
| spotz | fungi: I think that would be a team/project discussion that we'd need to have if upstream release cycles changed | 16:11 |
| ykarel | https://trunk.rdoproject.org/centos8-master/ vs http://mirror.centos.org/centos/8-stream/cloud/x86_64/ | 16:11 |
| ykarel | spotz, in daily builds we don't consider tag releases for projects not in upper-constraints | 16:11 |
| fungi | spotz: yep, totally. mostly trying to figure out if users of major distributions are seeing the intermediate releases today, or only the final releases, and what that might mean if we extended the cycle and focused more on non-coordinated intermediate releases over the course of the year | 16:12 |
| ykarel | fungi, yes right before final releases we will not pick intermediate release as we start building for Centos only after upstream start library releases | 16:12 |
| ykarel | and if the releases happen after final releases, those will also be picked up | 16:13 |
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| spotz | You typed last ykarel:) | 16:18 |
| fungi | yeah, we waited ;) | 16:18 |
| ykarel | ok good :) | 16:18 |
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| spotz | And if you need to go we can take it up on Monday or another day. But at least you can have talks with folks based on this | 16:18 |
| fungi | ykarel: and the collection containing those intermediate releases is treated as a sort of preview of the upcoming coordinated release? | 16:18 |
| fungi | but yeah, this is not urgent, i'm just trying to get a feel for where users end up encountering intermediate releases from master today | 16:19 |
| ykarel | fungi, you mean for the trunk builds which are based on commits? | 16:20 |
| ykarel | sorry didn't got last question | 16:20 |
| fungi | ykarel: ironic 16.2.0 as an example | 16:21 |
| ykarel | fungi, so suppose during RC phase, if ironic-16.2.0 is the latest release, we will get that build | 16:22 |
| fungi | or 16.1.0 before it | 16:22 |
| ykarel | and when next release i.e 16.3.0 happens it will be auto build if it's before wallaby GA or after wallaby GA | 16:22 |
| ykarel | 16.1.0 will not get build, | 16:23 |
| fungi | right, i get that you'll ship the last one as part of wallaby, but will any of your users see the other intermediate releases? sounds like no in the case of rdo | 16:23 |
| ykarel | only releases post 16.2.0 will be picked | 16:23 |
| ykarel | yes it will not be seen | 16:23 |
| fungi | so under your current release model for rdo, if we had coordinated releases less often and made a lot more intermediate releases, the net result for rdo consumers would be that there are fewer releases (yearly instead of twice a year) | 16:24 |
| fungi | they won't see the intermediate releases made in the interim period | 16:25 |
| ykarel | yes right | 16:25 |
| fungi | thanks ykarel! that's what i was trying to figure out | 16:26 |
| fungi | obviously rdo might decide to change their release model to compensate if we shift the focus of our releases, but at least knowing that helps inform discussion about those sorts of decisions | 16:26 |
| ykarel | fungi, yes we may need changes based on upstream, we closely follow it, so keep us informed whenvever there are such changes | 16:27 |
| spotz | And if there are any meetings let me know and I'll make sure someone can attend who can answer questions, and I'll try to attend as well | 16:28 |
| spotz | The more we understand the better decisions can be made within RDO | 16:28 |
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| ykarel|away | Thanks spotz fungi | 16:29 |
| fungi | thanks to you! have a great weekend | 16:29 |
| spotz | Thank you! Enjoy your weekend! | 16:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Clarify optional lower bounds testing https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/781900 | 19:53 |
| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Clarify optional lower bounds testing https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/781900 | 19:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Clarify optional lower bounds testing https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/781900 | 20:08 |
| gmann | tc-members, fungi updated ^^ | 20:08 |
| gmann | also sent updates on ML, http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2021-March/021204.html | 20:09 |
| gmann | pinged Keystone team for leaderless things | 20:12 |
| gmann | got response form Mistral team on trying DPL model and we should see patch soon | 20:13 |
| gmann | that complete my AI from yesterday meeting. | 20:13 |
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