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| openstackgerrit | Colleen Murphy proposed openstack/governance master: Add RBAC investment opportunity for 2019 https://review.opendev.org/682380 | 04:32 |
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| njohnston | o/ | 12:35 |
| evrardjp | hello njohnston! | 12:36 |
| njohnston | hello evrardjp! | 12:36 |
| evrardjp | how are things? | 12:36 |
| njohnston | Things are wonderful! And for you? | 12:37 |
| asettle | o/ | 12:39 |
| evrardjp | close to holidays :) | 12:39 |
| evrardjp | hey asettle! | 12:39 |
| njohnston | Do you have any special plans for the holidays evrardjp? | 12:40 |
| njohnston | Hello asettle! | 12:40 |
| evrardjp | njohnston: a little bit of tc stuff, a little bit of learning, a whole lot of chil out. | 12:41 |
| evrardjp | if that's the proper term | 12:41 |
| njohnston | evrardjp: Spot on | 12:42 |
| asettle | HI ALL :D | 12:44 |
| evrardjp | what's up asettle? | 12:44 |
| asettle | Not a huge amount. It's cold. | 12:46 |
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| jungleboyj | evrardjp: are we having a meeting today? | 13:07 |
| jroll | yes | 13:07 |
| jroll | in... 52 minutes | 13:07 |
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| jungleboyj | Ok. May be a little late. Getting kids to school. | 13:09 |
| evrardjp | ok | 13:09 |
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| ricolin | o/ | 13:42 |
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| evrardjp | we have quite a large series of topics | 13:57 |
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| evrardjp | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 5 14:00:07 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is evrardjp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | #topic roll call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| ricolin | o/ | 14:00 |
| njohnston | o/ | 14:00 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/2YtTdoSEl4m4/giphy.gif | 14:00 |
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| ttx | o/ | 14:01 |
| diablo_rojo | o/ | 14:01 |
| zaneb | oh hey, this is happening :) | 14:01 |
| ttx | exciting | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | yes indeed | 14:01 |
| jungleboyj | O/ | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | one missing for quorum | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | woot | 14:01 |
| evrardjp | we have quorum! | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | just in case: tc-members the meeting has started! | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | let's first start with the follow up action items from previous meeting | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7b2z8NcgvyIthGU/giphy.gif | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | :) | 14:02 |
| evrardjp | #topic follow up previous action item (ricolin): SIG guideliness | 14:03 |
| jroll | \o | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "follow up previous action item (ricolin): SIG guideliness (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:03 | |
| evrardjp | I meant guidelines ofc | 14:03 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, we already got a patch up for that and looks might get landed anytime soon | 14:03 |
| ricolin | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/695366 | 14:03 |
| evrardjp | nothing else to do than reviewing? | 14:03 |
| ricolin | I assume only needs final approve. And will try to provide it to new SIG and see if that guideline helps | 14:04 |
| ricolin | that all | 14:04 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 14:04 | |
| evrardjp | ok. Do you want to report here if that helped, at the next meeting? | 14:04 |
| evrardjp | or do you want to give a little more time? | 14:05 |
| ricolin | report what? | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | In the latter, I will scratch that action item, and I will have that as a "longer term" action item | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | report on whether it helps or not :) | 14:05 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, yes | 14:05 |
| ricolin | sure | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | let's move on then | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | #topic follow up previous action item (ttx): large scale sig | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "follow up previous action item (ttx): large scale sig (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:06 | |
| ttx | The group was created and had its first meeting | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | that's good news! | 14:06 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Large_Scale_SIG | 14:06 |
| evrardjp | is the initial attendance as expected? | 14:07 |
| ttx | Two short-term objectives have been defined | 14:07 |
| ttx | - Scaling within one cluster, and instrumentation of the bottlenecks there | 14:07 |
| ttx | - Document large scale configuration and tips &tricks | 14:07 |
| ttx | yes, pretty good turnout, essentially APAC and Europe for now | 14:07 |
| ttx | Now we'll see if the excitement holds | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | sounds good | 14:08 |
| ttx | I'll help drive it until it can fly by itself | 14:08 |
| ttx | Next meeting in two weeks | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | maybe jroll could help on the America's side? | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:08 |
| evrardjp | do you want to do a status report in a few months? | 14:08 |
| cloudnull | o/ | 14:08 |
| * ricolin expect Line team will shows up in Large scale SIG:) | 14:09 | |
| ttx | Well for now it is a bit convenient not to have anyone from teh US from a meeting org perspective, so I'm not exactly chasing more down | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | I see | 14:09 |
| ttx | LINE, YAhoo!Japan, CERN, China Mobile... | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | :) | 14:09 |
| ttx | StackHPC | 14:09 |
| ttx | OVH | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | yeah definitely europe/apac | 14:09 |
| evrardjp | report next month to see how this flies? | 14:10 |
| ttx | I like that those were not necessarily very invested upstream before | 14:10 |
| ttx | So we'll see | 14:10 |
| ttx | sure | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | that's good news indeed :) | 14:10 |
| evrardjp | I will keep the topic for next month if you don't mind | 14:10 |
| ttx | wfm | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | that looks important to keep an heartbeat on | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | ok next | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | is gmann there? | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | or mnaser? | 14:11 |
| evrardjp | I will skip the two topics of them for now, moving to ricolin again then :) | 14:12 |
| evrardjp | #topic ricolin report on multi-arch sig and other sigs | 14:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ricolin report on multi-arch sig and other sigs (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:12 | |
| ricolin | For multi-arch we got a great number of people shows their interest on, which means there's definitely value to form it asap | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | nice to hear | 14:13 |
| evrardjp | would that be joined by the power folks, combined by the people you know focusing on ARM? | 14:13 |
| ricolin | rigth now we have Linaro to provide around 10 server, which might get online early next year | 14:14 |
| jungleboyj | Nice. | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | nice indeed | 14:14 |
| ricolin | still looking for more:) | 14:14 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, that's good idea, I should ask them | 14:14 |
| evrardjp | did you ping tonyb for his opinion on this? He might be able to provide you contacts | 14:14 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, yes, he also replied the ML too | 14:15 |
| ricolin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-November/010970.html | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | awesome! | 14:15 |
| ricolin | he's onboard! | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | I missed this, sorry | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | amazing | 14:15 |
| ricolin | NP | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | oh yeah I remember now | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | ok cool | 14:15 |
| evrardjp | is there anything else that we should be aware or that we can help, regarding SIGs? | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | (not necesarily the multi-arch one) | 14:16 |
| ricolin | I will take action to contact to Infra team to see if we got more ARM server in our Nodepool | 14:16 |
| ricolin | We got two thing going on in SIGs | 14:16 |
| evrardjp | that might be good to discuss with mnaser about that too, as he is already very involved in infra | 14:16 |
| mnaser | eh, timezones are confusing. hi, i'm here. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | (he is kinda our liaison to deal with the static hosting story that I wanted to chat here) | 14:17 |
| ricolin | One is we're tagging SIGs to match their current state https://review.opendev.org/#/c/695625/ | 14:17 |
| ricolin | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/695625/ | 14:17 |
| ricolin | another is the combine of self-healing SIG and auto-scaling SIG discussion | 14:17 |
| ricolin | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-November/010989.html | 14:17 |
| mnaser | turns out most of static hosting was actually done by andreas, i'm working on figuring out the next steps. | 14:17 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: yeah we'll come to that soon, we're finishing the report on what's going on in sigs | 14:18 |
| evrardjp | (if there is more to say) | 14:18 |
| ricolin | nope | 14:18 |
| ricolin | that's all | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | haha ok | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | thanks for the work there ricolin | 14:19 |
| ricolin | also ttx been promote to meta-sig core | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | oh great! | 14:19 |
| evrardjp | do we need to track the merger of those sigs (self healing and auto scaling) ? | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | I suppose you could do a little summary at next meeting? | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | (you = ricolin or ttx) | 14:20 |
| ricolin | I will do it since I'm driving that atcion too | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | ok perfect | 14:20 |
| evrardjp | nice to see progress there! | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | ok let's go to one of the many topics for mnaser then | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | #topic mnaser report on the infra liaison | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mnaser report on the infra liaison (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:21 | |
| evrardjp | what's happening with the static hosting? | 14:21 |
| evrardjp | is there more to say than what you said above? | 14:22 |
| mnaser | there's not much to report, turns out andreas has done a lot of the work and we were blocked for a while with the afs volume being pending creation and some infra patches pending to merge | 14:22 |
| mnaser | so there's not much progress but we've also been blocked for waiting for a bit too | 14:22 |
| evrardjp | can anyone around here help on that, or is there tribal knowledge that will be prevent people from this team to step up? | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | or any other blocker | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | I am just curious on how to help this forward | 14:23 |
| mnaser | it was blocked on the infra team because of afs things and job creation (i.e. openstack/project-config patches) | 14:23 |
| mnaser | they didn't have the infrastructure ready for us (yet) | 14:23 |
| evrardjp | oh I see | 14:24 |
| evrardjp | I will keep this in the topics for next meeting, so we track if it's still blocked on infra side, ok for you? | 14:24 |
| mnaser | sure | 14:24 |
| evrardjp | in the meantime, I suppose you're pinging on this to track the status update? | 14:25 |
| mnaser | i'm sorry, i don't follow | 14:25 |
| evrardjp | (just to know that both teams aren't waiting for each other at some point) | 14:25 |
| mnaser | no, i'm not pinging the infra team, afaik they just finished their work a day or two ago | 14:25 |
| evrardjp | "oh but we did that, you can go ahead now" | 14:25 |
| evrardjp | I see | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | so this work can be unblocked soon then? | 14:26 |
| mnaser | hopefully | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | (sorry if I ask stupid questions, it's because I am not sure to have full context) | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | cool | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | let's talk about that next meeting | 14:26 |
| mnaser | it's being taken care of :) | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | yeah, sorry for checking! :p | 14:26 |
| evrardjp | ok next | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | #topic mnaser report on sync with swift team | 14:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mnaser report on sync with swift team (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:27 | |
| evrardjp | I had this topic pending | 14:27 |
| mnaser | i think that should have been removed a while back | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | it was on py3, I think we can remove | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | sounds good | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | next | 14:27 |
| evrardjp | #topic ttx report on Technical vision reflection update | 14:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ttx report on Technical vision reflection update (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:28 | |
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| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/Y4tXwMTNHStfxDxduD/giphy.gif | 14:28 |
| ttx | I have not started that yet. I hope to get it going early January | 14:28 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:28 |
| ttx | so that I can report about it at next meeting | 14:28 |
| ttx | I might start it end of December tho | 14:28 |
| evrardjp | that would be good, if you want to discuss about it in January | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | holidays and stuff :) | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | next | 14:29 |
| evrardjp | #topic mnaser summary of the maintain issue with Telemetry | 14:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mnaser summary of the maintain issue with Telemetry (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:30 | |
| mnaser | it seems like catalyst picked up ceilometer work and ran away with it | 14:30 |
| evrardjp | I still have that in the topics, it was discussed in the PTG, continued over ML | 14:30 |
| mnaser | like, literally, ran away with it | 14:30 |
| mnaser | other projects suggested working together to leverage their backends | 14:30 |
| mnaser | and the current roadmap for ceilometer is "add the api again, add mongodb support again, go back in time" | 14:30 |
| jroll | :/ | 14:31 |
| evrardjp | I remember a tweet pointing to that ML thread indede | 14:31 |
| evrardjp | yes. | 14:31 |
| mnaser | https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2006893 | 14:31 |
| mnaser | https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2006894v | 14:31 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: did we start a conversation with them, to engage into not running back in time? :p | 14:32 |
| mnaser | i tried to politely steer the convo in the ML | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2006894 | 14:32 |
| evrardjp | #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2006893 | 14:32 |
| jroll | fwiw, I know we discussed putting metrics directly in prometheus at some point, I did some poking at that, and the python client is... not awesome. gets weird with multithread/process wsgi runners, and doesn't do any sort of quantile metrics (I was surprised this is up to the client, not the server) | 14:32 |
| mnaser | and i think i got a "this is what the ceilometer team is doing." | 14:32 |
| jroll | but just a data point, we'd need to do some work there first | 14:33 |
| mnaser | and then there was a few other proposals from other teams like monasca to integrate | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | jroll: this was the next topic as a smooth transition :) | 14:33 |
| mnaser | that were ignored, i asked for an update on what was the final decision, no answer, yoctozepto did as well (2 days ago) -- nothing. http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-December/011337.html | 14:33 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: :/ | 14:33 |
| jroll | aha, I shall wait | 14:33 |
| mnaser | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-November/011236.html | 14:34 |
| mnaser | asked on nov 28 | 14:34 |
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| evrardjp | I see it didn't really result in new stance | 14:35 |
| mnaser | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-November/010972.html | 14:35 |
| mnaser | that is where it starts to feel concerning tbh | 14:35 |
| mnaser | "we're going to maintain and support our use case" | 14:35 |
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| jroll | I wonder if they're unwilling to support monasca/etc, or just saying it works well | 14:36 |
| mnaser | yes i get it, this is open source, no one is entitled, but we also ask people to do whats best for openstack, not whats best to maintain your legacy piece of code | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | isn't that fair though? Are they refusing code from others? | 14:36 |
| jroll | wonder if lxkong is around | 14:36 |
| mnaser | its probably late there | 14:36 |
| jroll | yeah | 14:36 |
| zaneb | 3.30am | 14:36 |
| evrardjp | jroll: agreed, that's basically my question | 14:36 |
| mnaser | anyways, i don't want to sit and send emails to the entire ML every other day if there's no reasonable outcome that that the tc has any influence obn | 14:36 |
| ricolin | I don't think that means they will refusing others | 14:37 |
| mnaser | if you're going to invest all that time | 14:37 |
| zaneb | on one hand, it's fair to say that if nobody else is contributing, they'll contribute what they want to contribute | 14:37 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: not being an official project is the only thing we can do, but this is not something I want to arrive to right now | 14:37 |
| evrardjp | and that's only if it's not open to contributions | 14:37 |
| mnaser | might as well as invest it in the right way | 14:37 |
| ricolin | zaneb, true | 14:37 |
| mnaser | zaneb: yeah personally im torn on that | 14:37 |
| zaneb | on the other hand, who is going to show up and contribute when they're making it clear that they're only interested in maintaining their legacy stuff from 5 years ago? | 14:37 |
| mnaser | "do the right thing if you're gonna do the work anyways" vs "anything better than nothing" | 14:38 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: yes indeed | 14:38 |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 14:38 | |
| evrardjp | also if it works for them, could that work for others? just curious | 14:38 |
| zaneb | I think we should discuss with them whether they could continue to meet their goals as an unofficial project | 14:39 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: it will not be the only project to be single vendor in openstack :p | 14:39 |
| mnaser | adding the api back is a serious change in direction | 14:39 |
| zaneb | because I don't see that they're getting great benefit from it being in OpenStack, and for other people it's only creating confusion | 14:40 |
| ttx | evrardjp: we could also force a PTL change, but that's also nuclear and it's not as if we had likely candidates | 14:40 |
| evrardjp | I agree, but as TC we probably shouldn't intervene on the project, but helping on the ecosystem, and I haven't seen evidence it's not helping the ecosystem as a whole right now | 14:40 |
| zaneb | if they're ok with it leaving OpenStack officially, then our job is relatively easy | 14:40 |
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| jungleboyj | Yeah. | 14:40 |
| zaneb | if not then we have some hard discussions to have | 14:41 |
| jungleboyj | Is there a precedent for forcing at PTL change? | 14:41 |
| evrardjp | I don't want to go there though -- I know it's a radical change for users, but is it for a bad thing for the ecosystem? | 14:41 |
| ricolin | I been promised by telemetry PTL of a status report, we should ask some questions to them to clarify the current status | 14:41 |
| mnaser | lets not go down the forced PTL change route discussion | 14:41 |
| zaneb | yes, let's not | 14:41 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: ++ | 14:41 |
| gmann | o/, sorry i missed the time change thing. | 14:41 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: good idea, and if it still benefits everyone in the community would be a nice question | 14:41 |
| njohnston | mnaser++ | 14:41 |
| jungleboyj | Ok, wanted to make sure that others felt that way. | 14:41 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: agreed | 14:42 |
| mnaser | we're discussing the issue much more than trying to gather an update | 14:42 |
| mnaser | does anyone wanna come up with some next steps | 14:42 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: just did | 14:42 |
| evrardjp | well | 14:42 |
| mnaser | ok, so ricolin has an action item of getting a status update, id hope before the next meeting cause that would mean a month of work (in maybe) not the ideal direction. | 14:42 |
| evrardjp | between the lines :) | 14:42 |
| evrardjp | ok you want a status update before next meeting | 14:43 |
| evrardjp | that sounds good, can we discuss this at next week's office hours? | 14:43 |
| mnaser | i dont want one, i think it would be beneficial, because a month is a long time | 14:43 |
| evrardjp | that's fair | 14:43 |
| ricolin | Wondering if there's any other resources/info. we need from them? | 14:44 |
| ricolin | besides status update | 14:44 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: I guess what would matter for mnaser would be having a good chat of what's going on, why the decision -- while people seem so eager to not do that | 14:44 |
| evrardjp | wow my english is terrible | 14:45 |
| evrardjp | I think users need answers on the direction taken, to know how they can contribute or not. And if it's not the direction that some people want to take, ensuring that the voices are heard | 14:46 |
| ricolin | evrardjp, it's better than your chinese:) | 14:46 |
| mnaser | given my constant complaints about magnum (which ended up cleaning up a lot of it's stuff), i did really end up feeling pretty awful in the whole thing because it pushes people | 14:46 |
| mnaser | and the employer of this PTL is the same as the magnum one at the time, so id rather sit and talk from the sidelines | 14:46 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:46 |
| ttx | I wonder if someone should not raise the situation again (not mnaser) to show that the concern is a TC concern | 14:46 |
| mnaser | i assume that s/not/now/ | 14:47 |
| ttx | now raise, not mnaser yes | 14:47 |
| ricolin | I will take that action tomorrow and asking for the status report too from PTL:) | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | ricolin: I can do that with you, as my chinese is awful :p | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | let's sync on that | 14:48 |
| ricolin | yes, definitely | 14:48 |
| ttx | it can only help if the person is close to teh APAC tz, so +1 | 14:48 |
| ricolin | ttx evrardjp sweet! | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | #action ricolin evrardjp talk with PTLs about the direction of telemetry (see meeting log for detailed AP) | 14:48 |
| evrardjp | #topic mnaser report on oslo metrics project | 14:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mnaser report on oslo metrics project (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:49 | |
| evrardjp | jroll: you also wanted to say a few words about this? | 14:49 |
| jroll | I'll let mnaser speak first, I just have some recent experience with prometheus here | 14:49 |
| mnaser | i didn't progress on this, i think bnemec is not as involved in openstack-y things and he spoke with the LINE team, maybe ttx can help with the intro/sharing of the code :< | 14:49 |
| jroll | was LINE using prom, IIRC? | 14:50 |
| mnaser | yeah | 14:50 |
| mnaser | i think? | 14:50 |
| jroll | cool, I'd love to see the code | 14:50 |
| bnemec | Yeah, we talked in Shanghai. We're waiting on them to propose the new library and make the code available. | 14:50 |
| evrardjp | ok | 14:50 |
| * ttx checks notes | 14:50 | |
| jroll | as I mentioned before, the official python client for prom has some problems that make it not ideal for usage in openstack | 14:50 |
| jroll | but they seem relatively solvable | 14:50 |
| ricolin | they got a presentation for their structure, back in summit | 14:50 |
| evrardjp | jroll: can you push from your side to see the code, so I can ask you in a month how is this going? | 14:51 |
| evrardjp | that would be amazing | 14:51 |
| ricolin | bnemec, is there any update from them now? | 14:51 |
| ttx | yes, os.metrics instrumenting oslo.messaging to send to Prometheus | 14:51 |
| * ricolin knows it still early to ask | 14:51 | |
| jroll | evrardjp: I have no contacts there, all I could do is ask on the ML, not sure if that's helpful | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | argh | 14:52 |
| bnemec | I don't think they're using prometheus from the OpenStack side, they're just exporting metrics in a way it can consume. | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | jroll: maybe bnemec has :p | 14:52 |
| evrardjp | and he seems just here | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | :D | 14:53 |
| bnemec | They did a presentation during the forum. Can probably contact those folks. | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | awesome! | 14:53 |
| evrardjp | I think if you can contact them, and introduce to jroll that would be the first step | 14:53 |
| gmann | jroll: you can reach out to dinesh (he used to be on irc, i can check his irc name) | 14:54 |
| jroll | I don't want intros, only code | 14:54 |
| jroll | heh | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | fair | 14:54 |
| jroll | I am happy to reply in an email chain about how excited I am to see the code, if that will motivate them | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | but those ppl can give you links | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | ok let's settle for that then | 14:54 |
| evrardjp | #action jroll to use his email client to see code | 14:55 |
| evrardjp | ahem ahem | 14:55 |
| jroll | -.- | 14:55 |
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| evrardjp | oh come on, that was hilarious. | 14:55 |
| ttx | "." | 14:56 |
| fungi | tough crowd | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | ok we have so many things | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | let's continue | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | #topic gmann report on community goals for U/V/py2 drop/rolling to py3/goal select process schedule | 14:56 |
| ttx | good thing we have an office hour to go deeper | 14:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "gmann report on community goals for U/V/py2 drop/rolling to py3/goal select process schedule (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:56 | |
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| jungleboyj | *sad_trombone.wav* | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: :) | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | I will give you gifs | 14:56 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEhn3lV6Yk1Ku6WRi/giphy.gif | 14:57 |
| gmann | Ussuri goal update: 1. py2 drop - this is going on, many services has merged the patches and other are in progress. This is in good progress. 2. PTl and Contributor guide- goal is not yet merged - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/691737/ | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | oh wait, a better python drop | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | #link https://media.giphy.com/media/zzkFADpR7k2NG/giphy.gif | 14:57 |
| gmann | I have only one concern left there is to have template for PTL guide so that projects can maintain the conssitency | 14:57 |
| gmann | consistency | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: ^ | 14:57 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 14:58 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I think that there were concerns that having as its own separate document might be too time consuming for a small amount of people | 14:58 |
| gmann | because not all read the expectation till we have the defined template . for example projects does not read the py drop schedule and start dropping the py2 from python client lib also and i have to -1 them every time | 14:58 |
| diablo_rojo | I also think that there may not be that much different than needs to be mentioned? | 14:58 |
| diablo_rojo | Also that its fine living in CONTRIBUTING.rst because being a PTL is form of contribution | 14:59 |
| evrardjp | gmann: arrgh | 14:59 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: i think common PTL guide we have currently does not reflect all PTL works. | 14:59 |
| diablo_rojo | (I think I also wrote all/most of this in the review of the template yesterday) | 14:59 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, no? Well that should probably get updated with all the common work that PTLs do them | 14:59 |
| diablo_rojo | Only the project specific stuff should live in the template | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | ok let's talk one topic at a time, now talking about the U - PTL goal part | 15:00 |
| gmann | ok, we can discuss that in office hour. | 15:00 |
| evrardjp | we are in the office hour basically :) | 15:00 |
| diablo_rojo | Lol sorry | 15:00 |
| gmann | :) | 15:00 |
| gmann | V goal- zuulv3 goal is under review which we decided to have as pre-selected as V cycle | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | ok that's good | 15:01 |
| gmann | goal schedule - I am going to propose the schedule up by today. | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | thanks | 15:01 |
| gmann | that's all from my side | 15:01 |
| evrardjp | for all those points (before we circle back to the problems), do you need any help? | 15:01 |
| gmann | we are good on these. | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:02 |
| gmann | we will discuss more on PTL goal next in office hour | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | you mean next week? | 15:02 |
| evrardjp | or is my agenda broken? | 15:02 |
| gmann | today | 15:03 |
| *** rpittau is now known as rpittau|afk | 15:03 | |
| evrardjp | or after the meeting | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | got it | 15:03 |
| gmann | yeah after meeting | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | sounds good, I need to accelerate then | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | #action gmann discuss about the issues in the U goals at the next office hours | 15:03 |
| evrardjp | #topic jungleboyj update on the blog post about the analysis of the Foundation user survey | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "jungleboyj update on the blog post about the analysis of the Foundation user survey (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:03 | |
| jungleboyj | :-) I have this in my sprint plan for the week. | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: are you there? Do you have an eta? :p | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | woot | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | awesome | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | So, should have something for this next week. | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | I am writing that down for next meeting | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: Sounds good. | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: are you there? | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | it's for the next topic which also takes time | 15:04 |
| evrardjp | #topic mugsie update on release naming progress | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mugsie update on release naming progress (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:04 | |
| evrardjp | I want to put this to bed | 15:05 |
| evrardjp | it's been far too long | 15:05 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 15:05 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 15:05 |
| evrardjp | I thought we reached consensus during PTG, but I was wrong | 15:05 |
| ttx | What's the standing objection at this point ? Not enough votes? | 15:06 |
| evrardjp | gmann: thinks it's not respecting opinions of the people, if I am not mistaken | 15:06 |
| evrardjp | which leads to me to think it's possible to invert the things: tc proposes names and community votes | 15:06 |
| evrardjp | instead of the opposite: community propose names and tc votes | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | though it will still make the life of the voting complex | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | I liked the community proposed named better. | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | *names | 15:07 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: Agreed. | 15:07 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: +9million | 15:07 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: that would be a ton more work for the TC | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | me too, as it was also transparent for which tc member has voted, so it was still transparent for members | 15:07 |
| jungleboyj | I thought that that is the important thing. | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:08 |
| evrardjp | so we are all in agreement again | 15:08 |
| evrardjp | I am glad. Let's vote in majority for this and make it | 15:08 |
| gmann | only issue I have is let community decide the final name and anything else is all fine to me(who choose the name etc) | 15:08 |
| zaneb | speaking with my community member hat on, the fun part is looking for names | 15:08 |
| ttx | zaneb: yes | 15:08 |
| mnaser | wait what are we voting in majority for? | 15:08 |
| jungleboyj | zaneb: ++ | 15:08 |
| zaneb | voting is boring and the outcome is usually terrible no matter who chooses it | 15:08 |
| fungi | also conducting a vote of the entire community has a lot of rough edges | 15:09 |
| jungleboyj | We may get some heat for the votes, but that is part of the work of leadership. | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: ++ | 15:09 |
| ttx | mnaser: community propose names and tc votes | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | Could care less about voting on it. | 15:09 |
| ttx | mnaser: I know you disagree :) | 15:09 |
| mnaser | ill make my own little twitter poll | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | Community elects TC, TC picks the name. | 15:09 |
| mnaser | and then the community can have my vote if im on tc | 15:09 |
| ttx | mnaser: sure, that works too | 15:09 |
| mnaser | :P | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | And the community can lobby for their preferences. | 15:09 |
| gmann | that is what current proposal in review is so what is difference | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | yeah people circled to the current proposition | 15:10 |
| ttx | We should definitely try to pick the community's consensus rather than our personal preference | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | because they like it | 15:10 |
| ttx | if they differ | 15:10 |
| jungleboyj | Makes sense. | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | I think we'll never get a full "I agree on this proposal" and this sounds the best we ever had on the topic | 15:11 |
| evrardjp | I propose we continue with the current proposal | 15:11 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 15:11 |
| ttx | I want it changed before we get to W | 15:11 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:11 |
| ttx | and this one fills the bill. Not my preferred option, but I can live with it | 15:11 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah. We need to move foward. | 15:11 |
| evrardjp | I am sorry if it doesn't please some people here, but it's the one that gets the most ppl "ok" | 15:12 |
| evrardjp | it's the "compromis a la belge" | 15:12 |
| evrardjp | noone is really happy with it, but it works on average | 15:12 |
| jungleboyj | I beg your pardon? ;-) | 15:12 |
| evrardjp | ok let's move on | 15:12 |
| gmann | ttx: if i understand your comment. you mean to get vote from community on that review ? | 15:12 |
| gmann | or get their opinion via ML | 15:13 |
| ttx | gmann: try to pick a name that seems to be supported by the community, rather than your own unique preference | 15:13 |
| ttx | i.e. not a time to be original, more a time to try to sense what would please / represents the community | 15:14 |
| gmann | ohk | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | it involves tc members talking to the community | 15:14 |
| ttx | Which is somethign we did every time we bent the rules in the old system | 15:14 |
| ttx | like to propose "Train" | 15:14 |
| mnaser | i hate to be that guy, but (to my disagreement) we mentioned those meetings are status updates, not full on discussions on what we want to do. i'm not opposed to changing the theme but just want to be aware of time | 15:14 |
| gmann | which is very difficult :) this is kind of getting their vote in different way | 15:14 |
| * mnaser doesnt want to walk out but also has $things | 15:14 | |
| evrardjp | fair | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | you're right mnaser | 15:14 |
| jroll | mnaser: ++ | 15:14 |
| ttx | ok, moving on let's close tat meeting | 15:14 |
| evrardjp | let's move on | 15:14 |
| mnaser | this is healthy office hours discuss imho | 15:15 |
| mnaser | s/discuss/discussion/ | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | #topic ttx update on a possible merge tc/uc | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ttx update on a possible merge tc/uc (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:15 | |
| ttx | Not started yet, expecting to start the discussion in January after the ops meetup. Will report next meeting. | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: agreed | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | #topic evrardjp report on the concepts repo | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "evrardjp report on the concepts repo (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:15 | |
| evrardjp | crazy ideas* | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | not done, I will work on it during my holidays next week | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | #topic extra topics | 15:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "extra topics (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:16 | |
| evrardjp | #info evrardjp patches pending | 15:16 |
| evrardjp | we have plenty of patches pending, please vote | 15:16 |
| evrardjp | like plenty plenty | 15:16 |
| evrardjp | #info mnaser summary on the stable branch policy discussion since summit | 15:16 |
| evrardjp | (this is the last item for the report, we can close the meeting afterwards -- I have at least two topics to talk in office hours -- the tc election dates, and a reflection) | 15:17 |
| mnaser | we seem to have come to some sorts of consensus, i am finding time to draft up a change to openstack/governance soon, the consensus seems to be "stable teams are kept as is, stable cores can add other stable cores" | 15:17 |
| evrardjp | ok | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | sounds good | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | no report next month, as I suppose you'll draft up the change, ok? | 15:18 |
| jungleboyj | Sounds good to me. | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | thanks everyone! | 15:18 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 15:18 |
| zaneb | can we have one volunteer to retroactively vote for https://review.opendev.org/681266 for compliance? | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | #endmeeting | 15:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 15:18 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 5 15:18:44 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:18 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-12-05-14.00.html | 15:18 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-12-05-14.00.txt | 15:18 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-12-05-14.00.log.html | 15:18 |
| ttx | Thanks evrardjp ! | 15:19 |
| diablo_rojo | thanks evrardjp! | 15:19 |
| ricolin | thx evrardjp :) | 15:19 |
| evrardjp | I will do better time management next time. I thought we had progress, so didn't want to interrupt | 15:20 |
| * jroll sees jungleboyj and diablo_rojo as good candidates to vote on 681266 | 15:20 | |
| evrardjp | zaneb: not sure what's missing though | 15:20 |
| gmann | evrardjp: thanks | 15:20 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: I replied on the list | 15:20 |
| jroll | evrardjp: we need 2/3 majority to change the charter, which is 9 members, only 8 voted | 15:20 |
| * jungleboyj goes to look. | 15:20 | |
| zaneb | one of gmann, mugsie, jungleboyj, diablo_rojo, mnaser | 15:21 |
| evrardjp | I thought this was formal vote. you're right. | 15:21 |
| zaneb | yeah, it had the wrong tag | 15:21 |
| evrardjp | it was a honest mistake, my bad | 15:21 |
| * diablo_rojo opens tab | 15:21 | |
| zaneb | I don't think we document that tag in the house rules | 15:21 |
| zaneb | so the rules are spread between the charter and the house rules doc | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | nope but it's documented I think | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | yeah that kinda is bad | 15:22 |
| zaneb | it is, in the charter itself | 15:22 |
| jungleboyj | I was in support of it. | 15:22 |
| zaneb | I can propose a patch to reference that | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | I guess it wouldn't hurt | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | can you tackle that zaneb? | 15:22 |
| diablo_rojo | Oh yeah, I agreed with this change. Somehow missed the review. | 15:22 |
| diablo_rojo | You want me to +2 now? | 15:22 |
| jungleboyj | I think it is better to keep an odd number and slowly reduce. | 15:23 |
| jungleboyj | It is merged. :-) | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: yes | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | in the comments | 15:23 |
| zaneb | jungleboyj, diablo_rojo: if you can just leave a comment approving, then we can call it closed | 15:23 |
| gmann | vote now on merged one ? I too agree on that but missed the vote | 15:23 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, I know is ;) But I think they need to meet the threshold now for formalities sake | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | you can still comment | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | not technically vote I think | 15:23 |
| evrardjp | but that's good enough for us | 15:23 |
| jungleboyj | Ah. Ok. Done. | 15:24 |
| evrardjp | thanks | 15:24 |
| zaneb | thanks, that's that sorted | 15:24 |
| jungleboyj | Just wanted to make sure I was looking at the right vote. :-) | 15:24 |
| evrardjp | thanks zaneb for noticing too | 15:24 |
| diablo_rojo | Also done. | 15:24 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: ++ | 15:24 |
| jungleboyj | The rules are no longer broken. | 15:24 |
| gmann | done | 15:24 |
| zaneb | \o/ | 15:24 |
| diablo_rojo | #nailedit | 15:25 |
| evrardjp | editing nails? | 15:25 |
| zaneb | jungleboyj, diablo_rojo, gmann: thanks! | 15:25 |
| gmann | I want to discuss the Contributor & PTL guide goal to close it asap. if all ok ? | 15:25 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 15:25 |
| evrardjp | yeah it's office hours | 15:25 |
| evrardjp | I think during office hours we probably need to chat about election dates though, so let's keep that in mind | 15:26 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: i replied on the PTL guide requirement on template patch. if i understand clearly- you mean we do not need separate guide for PTL ? | 15:26 |
| gmann | evrardjp: sure. | 15:26 |
| gmann | my impression from goal was two separate guide. | 15:26 |
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| diablo_rojo | gmann, correct. I think initially I thought they should be separate, but after putting together the template, I think it can be all one doc | 15:29 |
| diablo_rojo | Happy to update whatever goal phrasing. | 15:29 |
| evrardjp | assuming goal phrasing is updated, would that remove the concern of yours gmann? | 15:30 |
| diablo_rojo | I don't want to put too much load on PTLs/ex PTLs since there aren't many of them to help out with this part of the goal | 15:30 |
| evrardjp | I am not sure I understood the fundamental issue there | 15:30 |
| jungleboyj | That template looks pretty good. | 15:30 |
| *** jcapitao is now known as jcapitao|afk | 15:30 | |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, basically the original thought was that the two documents would be separate | 15:30 |
| diablo_rojo | I have combined them to simplify the goal/make it easier on PTLs/ex PTLs | 15:31 |
| gmann | but having PTL specific tasks/best practice in Contributor guide is not right place i think as per the audience of both the guide | 15:31 |
| diablo_rojo | but that might not be clear enough in the current phrasing of the goal | 15:31 |
| evrardjp | yeah but that's details, not a fundamental issue? | 15:31 |
| evrardjp | oh now I see gmann's concern | 15:31 |
| jungleboyj | I assume if the team already has a separate set of documents linking to them from there isn't an issue? | 15:31 |
| evrardjp | can this be done at the same time in two files? | 15:31 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann I can see the argument for having it separate, but I also think being a PTL is another form of contribution | 15:31 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: ++ | 15:32 |
| diablo_rojo | while it might not be the focus of a new contributor, it could be a goal long term | 15:32 |
| gmann | for exmple for nova case- https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/contributor/ptl-guide.html | 15:32 |
| diablo_rojo | (hence why it is at the bottom of the template) | 15:32 |
| evrardjp | so the document would be from new contributor to core to ptl? | 15:32 |
| gmann | i am ok if project does not have project specific PTL guide but if they have it might be too much text in same guide | 15:33 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: Right, and for the teams that are like that just put an intro and a link in that section. | 15:33 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 15:33 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, okay so the concern is that its too much in one doc? | 15:33 |
| evrardjp | that sounds a reasonable approach as the structure would stay consistent, but the details can be cross linked if too heavy | 15:34 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I would hope there isnt **that** much different between roles, but I guess thats something to learn with this goal :) | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | that's fine for me | 15:34 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 15:34 |
| fungi | seems like if the contributing.rst mentions a separate ptl-notes.rst or whatever that ought to be sufficient for people to find it without making it mandatory that everyone keep theirs in a separate file | 15:34 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, yeah I have the common ptl guide linked in the template already | 15:34 |
| jungleboyj | I don't think it is really worth arguing over. | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: ++ | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | it seems like people are in agreement over the goal, but not over the details | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | so that's already a good thing | 15:35 |
| gmann | but where project specific PTL tips goes ? | 15:35 |
| fungi | gmann: what if a team doesn't have ptl tips unique to their team? | 15:35 |
| gmann | evrardjp: yes, it is all on implementation details, goal is all agreed | 15:35 |
| fungi | that seems like it could be a majority of teams | 15:35 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, in the contributing.rst further down in the ptl section | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | gmann: If I understood correctly, that's inside the same document, however, that can be cross linked (the full text doesn't need to be copied twice) | 15:35 |
| gmann | fungi: yeah they can have common guide link and keep the guide open for future notes | 15:35 |
| diablo_rojo | I mention the common guide we have and then I encourage people to add specifics to their project after | 15:35 |
| diablo_rojo | https://review.opendev.org/#/c/696001/2/CONTRIBUTING.rst | 15:36 |
| diablo_rojo | 59 | 15:36 |
| diablo_rojo | I can change the template to actually mention the link instead of having it in a note | 15:36 |
| diablo_rojo | That's easy. | 15:36 |
| diablo_rojo | (gotta clean up whitespace anyway apparently) | 15:36 |
| fungi | seems like just asking teams to update their contributing.rst to have some consistent sections is already a lot and asking them to also maintain a new document with ptl notes they may not even need is going to reduce the chances that teams bother to get it done | 15:36 |
| gmann | yeah if we cross link it is fine but I mean we should provide a guide to each project saying that this is PTL guide and mention the best practice or notes you want to transfer as KT to new PTL | 15:37 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, +2 | 15:37 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 15:37 | |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, okay so I just need to update the template to make the link not a note anymore and actual text? | 15:37 |
| jungleboyj | So, just word it as having the separate document is optional. | 15:37 |
| diablo_rojo | Easy. Will do that today. | 15:37 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, can add that too | 15:38 |
| diablo_rojo | since Nova and maybe others potentally already have that. | 15:38 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: ++ | 15:38 |
| diablo_rojo | I figured that was obvious, but I can make it explicit :) | 15:38 |
| gmann | they can have common guide link as default or any project specific guide + common guide etc | 15:38 |
| fungi | also remember that every repository has a contributing.rst file, there's already going to be a lot of duplication... making a team with 20 or 50 repos keep a synchronized copy of a ptl notes doc in all of those is questionable | 15:38 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: I agree but I think that addresses the concerns here. :-) | 15:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Brian Haley proposed openstack/governance master: Add ovn-octavia-provider project https://review.opendev.org/697095 | 15:39 |
| fungi | contributing.rst should tell people where to find information on how to contribute to that repository | 15:39 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, +2 | 15:39 |
| gmann | fungi: that is why i was thinking a separate guide and have them in single place | 15:39 |
| *** jcapitao|afk is now known as jcapitao | 15:40 | |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, +2, while a lot of the template might be the same across all repos for a single project, I think there are things that will be different too. | 15:40 |
| fungi | gmann: that only makes sense for teams which need it though, and so isn't really goal material on its own? | 15:40 |
| gmann | like PTL-guide and that exist in spec repo or wiki or any common place not per repo under project | 15:40 |
| gmann | sure, i thought we discussed that we want every project to do PTL KT transfer guide for new PTL but I am ok to drop that as part of goal and let project do if they need | 15:41 |
| fungi | sure, having the contributing.rst template include a default reference to the openstack ptl guide seems reasonable, and teams can adjust that if they have a team-specific ptl guide somewhere they want referenced | 15:41 |
| gmann | agree. | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | woot | 15:42 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 15:42 | |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I still think it should be mentioned as part of the goal, but the pressure to write out an entire separate doc is a little much. It would be great, but filling out a section of the contrib.rst is enough for me. | 15:42 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, +2 | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | it seems you are reaching consensus | 15:42 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, don't jinx it! | 15:42 |
| fungi | asking teams to document any team-specific things ptls need to know seems fine. asking teams to make up their own processes so they have something to document outside the openstack ptl guide is not something which makes sense on the other hand ;) | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: hahaha | 15:43 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, lol agreed | 15:43 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: yeah, we can mention that in template (you already mentioned) and in goal detail also that project need their PTL tips/work can still link to Contributors.rst section | 15:43 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, can do | 15:44 |
| diablo_rojo | I'll get those changes up today. | 15:44 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: thanks. | 15:44 |
| fungi | i do also think that generally the contributing.rst template should be kept as brief as possible. it'll be best as durable links to things contributors need to be aware of so that the documentation being linked to can be updated more centrally without needing to push regular updates to every repo | 15:44 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, +2 | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | I tried to keep my text that I did add terse. | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: you wanted to chat over election dates | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, I did.. | 15:45 |
| fungi | like "here's the bug tracker for this repo, here's where you can find instructions for proposing changes, here's where you can view our team's policies..." | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | tc-members ^ | 15:45 |
| diablo_rojo | Has everyone seen the email I sent yesterday about the primary three options? | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | sorry I meant: tc-members, we should talk about election dates | 15:46 |
| jungleboyj | Yep. | 15:46 |
| njohnston | yes | 15:46 |
| gmann | fungi: yeah, that is main objective. links not changeable text | 15:46 |
| jroll | yeah, I read that | 15:46 |
| gmann | evrardjp: yeah | 15:46 |
| diablo_rojo | Cool. So. Thoughts? | 15:46 |
| diablo_rojo | Glad so many people read my email lol | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | I have seen the options, but there isn't a fourth one, based on fungi's answer? | 15:46 |
| * diablo_rojo didn't see replies with opinions | 15:46 | |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:47 |
| * gmann have not read the email or coffee yet :( | 15:47 | |
| jungleboyj | Everyone is opinionated. | 15:47 |
| zaneb | was going to reply to the thread, but I think clearly our old formula is no longer fit for purpose with the new events plan | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | I don't have enough information to have an opinion | 15:47 |
| fungi | yeah, my term duration subthread was more to ask whether i'm misinterpreting or too strictly interpreting the bylaws and charter | 15:47 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, I think its a shifting of all dates forward to match the charter requirement? | 15:47 |
| jungleboyj | zaneb: ++ | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: agreed | 15:47 |
| njohnston | zaneb: ++ | 15:47 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I sent the email so I don't need to read it again, but I also have not caffeinated yet | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | yes, because we can't update the charter for the current elected members | 15:48 |
| * diablo_rojo is horizontal on her couch wrapped up in blankets with her laptop | 15:48 | |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: speaking of which, could you update your vote on https://review.opendev.org/695071 after caffeine? ;) | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | terrible position, you're gonna get problems when you're gonna get older | 15:48 |
| gmann | diablo_rojo: :) read it quickly | 15:48 |
| fungi | right now i feel like the combination of what the osf bylaws require of the tc and what the tc charter says result in painting us (tc members and election officials) into a bit of a corner shcheduling-wise | 15:49 |
| * diablo_rojo swaps tc hat for election official hat | 15:49 | |
| evrardjp | terrible position to type* | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | That was how I got a bulging disk. | 15:49 |
| diablo_rojo | I really just want a decision on the dates for today if we can, and then we can figure out what else needs to change as a result later? | 15:49 |
| diablo_rojo | if that's feasible? | 15:49 |
| * jungleboyj realizes how old that sounds now | 15:49 | |
| evrardjp | jungleboyj: :) | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | mmm | 15:50 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, lol, will do | 15:50 |
| zaneb | evrardjp, jungleboyj: I thought this was TC office hours not geriatrics office hours | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: you're still welcome | 15:50 |
| *** jeremyfreudberg has quit IRC | 15:50 | |
| * jungleboyj laughs | 15:50 | |
| zaneb | lol | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | :p | 15:50 |
| fungi | it's all goiters and bunions up in here | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: doesn't have an answer with that | 15:50 |
| jungleboyj | ewwww | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | diablo_rojo: do our opinion matter? | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | (assuming we respect the charter) | 15:51 |
| jroll | do we think the combined election would be difficult for the electorate? if not, and it's easier for officials, I'd prefer that | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | I trust the elections wg | 15:51 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, yeah they do, I dont think the election offcials have the authority to decide on their own? | 15:51 |
| diablo_rojo | Unless you just want to delegate to us? | 15:51 |
| fungi | jroll: we did a combined election last time, and it went well enough | 15:51 |
| jroll | ah, ok | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | difference between authority and trust :) | 15:52 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 15:52 |
| jroll | combined is my vote then :) | 15:52 |
| jungleboyj | That is true. | 15:52 |
| gmann | yeah, i think combined election was easy for electorate too | 15:52 |
| fungi | granted, we had no polls to run last time because there were no contested ptl seats and exactly the required number of tc candidates to fill the open seats there | 15:52 |
| njohnston | I trust the elections officers... and chances are that, like the last election, we will have a very small number of contested PTL slots (if any) so there is little work to do there | 15:52 |
| jroll | yeah, I don't imagine this election would be very contentious either | 15:52 |
| diablo_rojo | njohnston, this is true | 15:52 |
| gmann | fungi: which i assume going to be the same this time | 15:52 |
| evrardjp | does that work with current charter? | 15:52 |
| diablo_rojo | I expect reducing the seats will encourage polling for the TC election though | 15:52 |
| jungleboyj | True ... | 15:52 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: ++ | 15:52 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, uhhhh, I will defer to fungi on that one | 15:53 |
| njohnston | diablo_rojo++ | 15:53 |
| gmann | i mean for PTL | 15:53 |
| diablo_rojo | I think no? | 15:53 |
| fungi | the scheduling challenge with combining the elections, as i see it, is that the bylaws require that the terms for tc seats are set before anyone is elected to fill them, so we can't say now that folks elected months ago are going to serve for 13 months instead of the default 12 | 15:53 |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: you'd hope so, but... | 15:53 |
| diablo_rojo | Unless we shift up all the elections to conclude early | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | exactly | 15:53 |
| fungi | so that means that we're stuck holding the tc election at the start of march | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | ok so | 15:53 |
| fungi | one year from when those seats were previously elected | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | why not doing PTL at the same time? | 15:53 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, I like to be blissfully unaware of the inner workings of the charter, but I probably should come to terms with needing to know it at some point | 15:54 |
| jungleboyj | :-( | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | fungi: not sure when we say "term expires" in March 2020, does that mean beginning of end of march | 15:54 |
| fungi | if we elect "v" cycle ptls at the start of march, that's before ussuri milestone 3 so they sit around for a while before their terms start | 15:54 |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: sorry, that was reference to the previous comment about reducing the seats encouraging polling | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | memory is fading (another topic for geriatric office hours) | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | fungi: "sitting around" sounds unlikely | 15:55 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: Does that really matter? | 15:55 |
| fungi | evrardjp: the bylaws say "12 months" so it's ostensibly open for interretation | 15:55 |
| evrardjp | better transition :) | 15:55 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: it's a year after the last election imho | 15:55 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, ah, yeah thats true I suppose lol | 15:55 |
| gmann | yeah it will be too early for PTL election ussuri is planned to release on May | 15:55 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: indeed, which is why my memory is fading | 15:55 |
| fungi | jungleboyj: in the past we've had ptl candidates say that the further out their terms end from the time they self-nominate, the harder it is for them to be sure they can commit to serving the full term | 15:55 |
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| fungi | i don't know whether that's still the case | 15:56 |
| jungleboyj | Hmmm, interesting. | 15:56 |
| diablo_rojo | So we can stick to option 1 then? | 15:56 |
| zaneb | "Voting ends Mar 05, 2019 23:45 UTC." | 15:56 |
| evrardjp | we are not saying that | 15:56 |
| evrardjp | thanks zaneb! | 15:56 |
| diablo_rojo | That does the TC election in March waits a week and then does the PTL election? | 15:56 |
| evrardjp | would it be possible to have everything ending on March 5th? | 15:57 |
| evrardjp | or around that date | 15:57 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, we could but that would be suuuuuper early for PTL elections I think | 15:57 |
| gmann | i vote for the combined election every time and change the charter or bylaw for TC term things | 15:57 |
| diablo_rojo | with the concern that too early makes it hard for people to commit | 15:57 |
| gmann | that can solve the problem which can occur everytime | 15:58 |
| evrardjp | gmann: yes we agree on changing the charter for the future, we are just concerned about this one | 15:58 |
| diablo_rojo | I personally (as an election official) like the combined election approach | 15:58 |
| fungi | that would mean the election concluding on r10 in the ussuri release schedule: https://releases.openstack.org/ussuri/schedule.html | 15:58 |
| gmann | cannot we do for this time also? i mean change before the election dates finalized | 15:58 |
| evrardjp | no because it wouldn't apply to current terms | 15:58 |
| fungi | 7 weeks before r3 when rc1 is targeted | 15:58 |
| jungleboyj | If we are not likely to have a lot of PTL changes then maybe it doesn't matter that it is early? | 15:58 |
| evrardjp | we need to do it before voting for the next terms though | 15:59 |
| evrardjp | but that's another convo | 15:59 |
| evrardjp | here we are just voting about the dates | 15:59 |
| gmann | evrardjp: ah for previous elected one. right. | 15:59 |
| evrardjp | proposition 3 is still over in March | 15:59 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, I dont think thats a correct statement? I think there could still be turnover (there usually is and not always with polling), but that doing it too early makes it hard for people to commit. | 16:00 |
| evrardjp | and it's the simplest for the election team | 16:00 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, if that makes sense :) | 16:00 |
| evrardjp | and it's indeed a problem for charter, but that sounds like a reasonable problem. | 16:00 |
| fungi | yeah, per my suggestion on the ml, i think the tc could amend its charter to declare seats filled for something like "14 months or until the second election from when they were elected" but that would only be for terms starting after the charter was amended | 16:00 |
| diablo_rojo | The turnover and the polling are not related. | 16:00 |
| * jroll has to go but trusts the decision will be emailed | 16:00 | |
| evrardjp | fungi: yes we agree for that, let's just focus on the dates right now :) | 16:00 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: Gotcha. | 16:01 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, +2 for that change for hopefully avoiding future complications | 16:01 |
| fungi | evrardjp: yep, i was clarifying why it's not relevant to the scheduling discussion | 16:01 |
| zaneb | the previous year's election concluded on 30 April 2018, so last year's was fully 2 months early. that's how we got into this predicament | 16:01 |
| evrardjp | oh ok | 16:01 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, cool, I'm glad that makes sense. Its early and I didn't sleep much lol. | 16:01 |
| evrardjp | I think it's fine if we run with a small tc for a month | 16:02 |
| evrardjp | one time, and we won't have the problem later | 16:02 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, yeah that coupled with how we calculate when to do tc elections, the event not being till june, etc etc. | 16:02 |
| evrardjp | (well I guess technically two times) | 16:02 |
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| fungi | so to restate my original question, does the tc stick to an election precisely 12 months from when those seats were previously elected this time, or run an election later and consider itself at half-capacity for a few weeks after those terms expired, or just pretend it's "close enough"? | 16:03 |
| * jungleboyj doesn't have a strong opinion. | 16:03 | |
| fungi | makes sense to at least separate that question from when to schedule ptl elections | 16:04 |
| evrardjp | I don't think people will have a strong opinion for a shorter tc during 2 to 4 weeks | 16:04 |
| zaneb | the half-capacity thing seems ok | 16:04 |
| * diablo_rojo puts tc hat on over the top of election official hat | 16:04 | |
| evrardjp | it sems okay for me | 16:04 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 16:04 |
| diablo_rojo | I like the close enough option, but I am biased lol | 16:04 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: I am kind of there too but don't want to look like I am just ignoring rules. | 16:04 |
| evrardjp | so basically we are heading to 3rd option, and half a tc for a series of weeks | 16:05 |
| gmann | one question on half-capacity- does that effect the TC changes voting system? like 2/3 vote required mean 2/3 of current TC not the total supposed TC | 16:05 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: for formal purposes, anyway | 16:05 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm not a lawyer and so not really sure if the tc can declare it close enough to "12 months" to continue operating normally. governance/law isn't quite so stringent as programming specifications | 16:05 |
| evrardjp | half a tc because we expect ppl won't be signing off to PTL because the end goal might be too far.... yeah that sounds fine for me. We want to empower people being ptls :) | 16:06 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, I am guessing it would | 16:06 |
| evrardjp | We don't need to be too formal | 16:06 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, +2 for empowering people to be PTLs | 16:06 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 16:06 |
| evrardjp | We do need to be formal | 16:06 |
| jungleboyj | That is the more important. | 16:06 |
| evrardjp | ok | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | so we have the results! | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | thanks everyone | 16:07 |
| diablo_rojo | Uhh so which option are we going with? | 16:07 |
| jungleboyj | He he. | 16:07 |
| diablo_rojo | 3? | 16:07 |
| jungleboyj | Yes? | 16:07 |
| diablo_rojo | + charter change? | 16:07 |
| evrardjp | yes | 16:08 |
| evrardjp | + half tc | 16:08 |
| diablo_rojo | (also we will likely need to push the extra atc deadline) | 16:08 |
| diablo_rojo | Lord, this got complicate.d | 16:08 |
| evrardjp | isn't that what you wanted? | 16:08 |
| gmann | half-tc need changes but it depends on how we read that - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/charter.html#motions | 16:08 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: See what happens when people read your e-mails? | 16:08 |
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| evrardjp | jungleboyj: hahaha | 16:08 |
| gmann | any motion need 'a minimum of positive votes of at least one third of the total number of TC' | 16:08 |
| gmann | total number we will consider as half-tc for those week? or what | 16:09 |
| * diablo_rojo offers jungleboyj an election official hat | 16:09 | |
| evrardjp | gmann: correct | 16:09 |
| fungi | gmann: my reading of the charter is yes | 16:09 |
| * jungleboyj tries it on and is not sure about the fit | 16:09 | |
| evrardjp | but the chair can decide to not merge it temporarily | 16:09 |
| * diablo_rojo hands jungleboyj a different election official hat | 16:09 | |
| evrardjp | to wait for a larger tc | 16:09 |
| fungi | basically 7 seats expire at the start of march, leaving 6 tc members active at that time | 16:09 |
| fungi | so calculations about majority are based on a tc of 6 members | 16:10 |
| evrardjp | because it's holding off for about 2 to 4 weeks | 16:10 |
| asettle | Shitttt sorry I'm here | 16:10 |
| asettle | o/ | 16:10 |
| diablo_rojo | asettle, lol | 16:10 |
| evrardjp | the meeting was 2 hours ago | 16:10 |
| evrardjp | haha | 16:10 |
| diablo_rojo | you missed so many fun conversations | 16:10 |
| fungi | because the charter says if people leave the tc within 4 weeks of a scheduled election then those seats will remain vacant and get filled at the next election | 16:10 |
| diablo_rojo | and have A LOT of scrollback to catch up on | 16:10 |
| asettle | evrardjp, I know how the hell did I miss that | 16:10 |
| gmann | evrardjp: fungi but it does not say active TC it say total TC. or its me over reading it. I am ok with active TC but we should agree on that so that no issue on merging the patches during those weeks | 16:11 |
| fungi | that's an excellent point | 16:11 |
| fungi | it could be interpreted as the tc no longer has quorum at that point (or maybe it still does because it's calculated against a smaller total number of seats with the recent change which merged) | 16:12 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Link to Charter Amendment section from House Rules https://review.opendev.org/697511 | 16:12 |
| evrardjp | my point is that we are discussing for two to 4 weeks | 16:12 |
| jungleboyj | Seems it would need to be against a smaller total number. | 16:12 |
| gmann | asettle: not just you, i joined late too in impression of 9 AM for me(i still cannot used to daylight saving things ) | 16:12 |
| evrardjp | UTC doesn't have daylight saving :) | 16:13 |
| evrardjp | let's use UTC everywhere! :) | 16:13 |
| zaneb | fungi: it says 'members' not 'seats'. not sure what we can read into that | 16:13 |
| gmann | yeah that is what i need to do, UTC | 16:13 |
| fungi | yeah, if you're calculating it against a tc of 11 seats and have only 6 members, then you could get by for a few weeks requiring unanimity to pass formal resolutions and lacking quorum for any changes to the charter | 16:13 |
| asettle | I'm glad gmann :D | 16:13 |
| zaneb | fungi: and honestly that wouldn't be a bad thing | 16:14 |
| gmann | zaneb: but later it will be same situation like on TC seat patch. i see only 3 vote positive and it was merged and do body knews TC were half that time | 16:14 |
| fungi | if you're calculating it against the number of tc members on the other hand, then yeah you'd need 3 (4?) for formal votes and 4 (5?) for charter changes | 16:14 |
| gmann | yeah | 16:15 |
| evrardjp | fungi: which sounds far -- no change to the charter should be done during that time | 16:17 |
| fungi | yep, i think it's reasonable | 16:17 |
| fungi | though i'm not on the tc, so want to be sure the tc thinks it's reasonable | 16:18 |
| evrardjp | I am not the only voice of the tc, but I personally think it's fine | 16:18 |
| evrardjp | s/but/ | 16:18 |
| evrardjp | s/but// * | 16:18 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: ++ | 16:18 |
| gmann | fair enough and TC chair can make sure that. I think this is way to proceed further. | 16:19 |
| fungi | right, hashing some of this out in office hour was mostly intended to help speed up the ml discussion we need to have about it | 16:19 |
| evrardjp | yes indeed | 16:19 |
| gmann | +1 | 16:19 |
| fungi | that and the resulting change in gerrit to set the election schedule are where the real discussion should take place anyway | 16:20 |
| evrardjp | if truly necessary we can rediscuss this in the next week's office hours, or bring ppl to vote on reviews. | 16:20 |
| fungi | and gerrit gives us a means of getting a more official blessing from the tc members | 16:20 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 16:21 |
| jungleboyj | Are we getting diablo_rojo the answer she needs though? | 16:21 |
| fungi | hopefully one or more tc members will reply to the ml thread with the answer as to what ought to get formally proposed in gerrit, and then we can collect some tc member votes there | 16:22 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, lol I don't think so | 16:22 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: That was what I feared. | 16:22 |
| diablo_rojo | jungleboyj, its alright, I can wait for answers on the thread...assumping people share opinions there | 16:23 |
| jungleboyj | Ok. Sounds like that is the best way to go forward then. | 16:23 |
| jungleboyj | And now the TC is aware of the issue and where to work it. :-) | 16:24 |
| diablo_rojo | Inded. | 16:25 |
| diablo_rojo | *Indeed | 16:25 |
| fungi | thanks! | 16:26 |
| jungleboyj | So we are settled on working this through the Mailing List? | 16:27 |
| jungleboyj | Seems like everyone has burned out. | 16:28 |
| fungi | i take full responsibility for burning people out ;) | 16:28 |
| fungi | it's a skill | 16:28 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: As you should with your rules and understanding details. | 16:28 |
| fungi | i'm occasionally tempted to enroll in night classes for a law degree, and then i suddenly feel an overwhelming desire for a shower | 16:29 |
| * jungleboyj laughs | 16:29 | |
| evrardjp | I thought this was clear | 16:30 |
| gmann | fungi: diablo_rojo thanks again for continuing great job on election. | 16:30 |
| evrardjp | yes indeed! | 16:30 |
| jungleboyj | No thank you. No law degree for me. | 16:30 |
| jungleboyj | ++ | 16:30 |
| gmann | yeah, may we can summarize the discussions here then other TC can reply | 16:30 |
| diablo_rojo | gmann, thanks | 16:30 |
| jungleboyj | Ok. Sounds good. | 16:31 |
| jungleboyj | Sorry, I got pulled into a call so I missed the finality of that decision. :-) | 16:31 |
| diablo_rojo | So.. I think we are in favor of the charter change that will make terms 14 months or until two elections after being elected | 16:31 |
| diablo_rojo | ? | 16:31 |
| diablo_rojo | And the combined election at its current suggested dates | 16:31 |
| diablo_rojo | which leaves us with 6 tc members for a few weeks | 16:32 |
| diablo_rojo | ? | 16:32 |
| gmann | I think yes. + TC will get/notify all TC member about no charter change during that half-tc week. | 16:33 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: That was the summary that I was expecting. Then we went down the legal rabbit hole. | 16:33 |
| jungleboyj | gmann: ++ | 16:33 |
| diablo_rojo | Okay. I will try to capture all that on the thread. | 16:34 |
| gmann | thanks diablo_rojo . | 16:35 |
| jungleboyj | diablo_rojo: Thanks for your work on that. | 16:35 |
| evrardjp | I will summarize | 16:36 |
| evrardjp | oh ok you summarize | 16:36 |
| evrardjp | perfect | 16:36 |
| fungi | and also, from the other subthread, the fact that the tc has already merged a change to shrink its size, so we'll be electing 5 seats rather than 7 this time around | 16:36 |
| gmann | correct. | 16:37 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 16:37 |
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| diablo_rojo | LOL | 16:38 |
| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, if you want to do it.. I will totally let you :) | 16:38 |
| evrardjp | go ahead | 16:39 |
| evrardjp | I will confirm :p | 16:39 |
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| diablo_rojo | evrardjp, kk | 16:41 |
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