Thursday, 2019-08-08

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openstackgerritTony Breeds proposed openstack/governance master: Change PTL for the Release Team
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openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Add Swift mission into governance
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jroll^ would be good to have a timburke ack on this :)12:40
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Add URL to rpm-packaging
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openstackgerritZane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Make mission required in projects.yaml
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Resolution: Mandatory Repository Retirement
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mnasertc-members: our monthly meeting is starting in 15 minutes13:46
jrollI will be multitasking meetings today :(13:46
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mugsieI will be on mobile for the first bit - I hit the update button my laptop 25 mins ago, and it still isn't done -_-13:57
ttxmugsie: I hope it will not affect your gif game13:58
ttxmugsie: 25min... update... are you working at Microsoft or what13:58
mugsieIronically, it is my MacBook that is updating13:59
ttxIt's patch Tuesday, only it's Thursday now13:59
ricolinmugsie, when is the last time you update it?!13:59
ttxmugsie: oh well, at least at the end it will still be working14:00
mnaser#startmeeting tc14:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Aug  8 14:00:12 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mnaser. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)"14:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'14:00
mnaser#topic roll call14:00
*** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: tc)"14:00
mnaserwelcome tc-members :)14:01
fungiwelcome to you as well14:01
mnaserok so i count atleast 7 of us if my math is right14:02
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ttxthat is 714:02
mnaserand i think my math tells me that we're good14:02
ttxevrardjp was here earlier14:03
zanebI count 814:03
fungii have not had enough caffeine to math yet14:03
mnaserheh, well lets get started.14:03
mnaser#topic Follow up on past action items14:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)"14:03
mnaser#info fungi to add himself as TC liaison for Image Encryption popup team14:03
mnaseri believe this was already done and addressed14:03
fungilike ragu, it's in there14:04
* dhellmann slides in the back late14:04
mnaser#info fungi to draft a resolution on proper retirement procedures14:04
mnaserthis merged not long ago14:05
mnaserand on our website14:05
fungicool, i missed it getting approved14:05
mnaserhappened before your coffee :)14:05
mnaser#topic Active initiatives14:06
*** openstack changes topic to "Active initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)"14:06
mnaser#info Python 3: mnaser to sync up with swift team on python3 migration14:06
mnaseri believe that this is probably wrapped up, most of the patches are in and i think that swift is ok for py3?  gmann mentioned something about this too14:06
gmannyeah py3 integration job is running fine on swift.14:06
gmanntimburke also removed swift from disable-py3-repo list on devstack side.14:07
mnaserlooks like its also moving well --
mnaserso thats awesome14:07
mnaser#info mugsie to sync with dhellmann or release-team to find the code for the proposal bot14:07
mnasersorry this one wasnt written out nicely14:07
mugsieI found it14:07
mugsieand am working on it at the moment14:07
mnaserok cool, for context -- this is making sure that when we cut a branch, proposal bot automatically pushes up a patch to add the 'jobs' for that series14:08
mugsiethere was some work done in the goal tools repo already, so trying to not re-write the world14:08
mugsiespeaking of, we should add the task of defining versions to our TODO list14:09
zanebmugsie: some of the stuff from might help14:09
gmann'jobs' ? for new python version right ?or stable ?14:09
mnasergmann: i think the 'series' specific job templates14:09
mnaserlike openstack-python-train-jobs or whatever it's called now14:09
mugsiefor the openstack-python3-train-job templates14:09
mnaserok, well that's progressing so we'll follow up on that.. we still have sometime before the next release but it'd be nice to have it ready a little bit before14:10
gmannone difficulties in that might be few projects might need old py version testing like charm-*14:10
mugsiegmann: they can add custom ones as needed, these are just for a standard set14:10
gmannmugsie: yeah. adding new should be ok as long as we do not remove their old supported one14:11
mugsiecharm-* *should* be good, as we based the py3 version off the LTS py3 version for each distro14:11
mnaserok, we can discuss more of the impl. details in office hours :>14:11
gmannfor exmaple, they need to test and support py3514:11
gmannyeah. we can discuss later14:12
mnaser#info Forum follow-up: ttx to organise Milestone 2 forum meeting with tc-members (done)14:12
ttxyeah so we raised it and etherpads were created14:12
ttxlet me dig links14:13
ttxWe only have one volunteer (jroll) for the programming committee14:13
ttxanyone else interested in the short list not going for reelection?14:13
mnaserthe proposed list was: asettle mugsie jroll mnaser ricolin, ttx and zaneb. (those that qualify)14:14
mnaserany volunteers? :>14:15
ttxmnaser: is there a specific document for Forum topics ideas ?14:15
ttxI can only find a PTG one14:15
mnaserttx: ?14:15
mugsieI would like to do it, but not sure on time commitments - what was the requirements ?14:15
ttxmugsie: Beyond encouraging people to submit proposals, the bulk of the selection committee work happens after the submission deadline (planned for     Sept 16th) and the Forum program final selection (planned for Oct 7th).14:15
ttxyou help select, refine, merge. But there aren't taht many proposals so it's less work imho that a conference track chair14:16
cdenti did it last time, we accepted everything14:16
mugsieOK, I don't have travel planned right now, so I should be OK for that14:16
cdentbecause there wasn't enough14:16
ttxyes, usually it's more about merging duplicates14:16
cdenti assume the situation will be similar this time14:16
ttxand deciding what is worth doublesessions14:17
fungii heard rumors we may not be able to accept every forum proposal this time around, but i don't really know what the capacity for it is14:17
ttxbasically aligning the number of slots available with the proposals received14:17
fungialso it probably depends a bunch on how many sessions get proposed in the first place14:18
mnaserfair enough, ok, so mugsie is a "maybe" and we can discuss that a 'tad bit more in office hours or over the ml14:18
mnaser#topic Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at
*** openstack changes topic to "Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at (Meeting topic: tc)"14:18
ttxI expect jimmy and Kendall to reach out soon for names14:18
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #topic Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at
mnaser#info Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at
ricolinttx count me in for volunteer14:18
ttxYeah this is still missing reviews, no standing -114:19
ttxso please review so we can cross it out14:19
mnaserits been sitting around for a while so yeah14:19
gmanni will do that tomorrow14:20
ricolinI really think we need to done this long before summit so we actually got time to sort/get more the proposal lists14:20
mnasergood idea, well please lets go through it when you can then (but after we're done :))14:21
mnaser#topic Attendance for leadership meeting during Shanghai Summit on 3 November14:21
*** openstack changes topic to "Attendance for leadership meeting during Shanghai Summit on 3 November (Meeting topic: tc)"14:21
mnaseralan reached out to me about this14:21
mnaserwondering who from the tc might be able to make it then (and i assume this is somewhat related to
ttxI should be there unless my visa applciation goes wrong14:22
mugsieI should be there14:22
zanebI expect to be there14:22
* ricolin will definitely be there14:22
mnaseris it safe to assume that anyone going to ptg will likely be at that leadership meeting?14:22
zanebof people already on the TC, I'd say yes14:22
mnaserok, we have 5 names down14:22
gmanni will be there but did not add my name till election...14:23
mnaseroh yes, that's happening14:23
mnaseranyone know off the top of their head14:23
mnaserwhen the election starts/ends14:23
TheJuliaI was just going to mention that would be a thing...14:23
TheJuliaI think nominations opens end of August timeframe14:23
dhellmannnominations start on 27th14:23
ttxTC Nominations14:23
ttxAug 27, 2019 23:45 UTC14:24
ttxSep 03, 2019 23:45 UTC14:24
mnaserouch so only by Sep 17, 2019 23:45 UTC can we really have a final tc list14:24
ttxSep 17, 2019 23:45 UTC14:24
ttxElection end ^14:24
mnaserthat might be hard for those who are on the "i can go if i hold a role" thing14:24
ttxprobably too late for people to join the leadership thing if they did not plan to14:24
mnaserwe should probably address that timeframe issue for the future14:25
fungii expect to be i shanghai at the board/leadership meeting, but as my term is up i will refrain from listing myself as an attendee unless reelected14:25
mnaserfair enough14:25
ttxTo be fair, the leadership thing does not require everyone imho14:26
dhellmannmnaser : the usual approach has been to recommend that candidates be prepared to attend, but travel budgets aren't what they used to be14:26
ttxI've been advocating for the people who are there to represent the others14:26
dhellmannttx makes a good point14:26
mnaseryeah and also 1 month before the actual summit itself is hard for people in general14:26
ttxPTG is a much more important moment imho14:26
mnaseresp. if theres a process like a visa or something14:26
dhellmannespecially with the change in the nature of that meeting14:26
fungiif reelected, i'll do my best to represent the positions of other tc members who cannot attend14:26
ttxi.e everyone should participate in drafting the message/position, and whoever can make it can represent14:27
mnaserso i think at the end of the day, our message to alan will be: yes, the tc will have a presence at the leadership meeting14:27
ttxsome presence14:27
fungisounds right14:27
mnaser#action mnaser to contact alan to mention that tc will have some presence at shanghai leadership meeting14:27
fungiwe can have more precise numbers at the end of next month14:27
mnasercool, that sounds good to me14:28
mnaseranyone has anything before moving on the next topic?14:28
mnaser#topic Reviving Performance WG / Large deployment team into a Large scale SIG (ttx)14:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Reviving Performance WG / Large deployment team into a Large scale SIG (ttx) (Meeting topic: tc)"14:29
ttxYeah, so a couple of weeks ago I was in Japan visiting some large OpenStack users14:29
ttxYahoo! Japan for example, which runs 160+ clusters totalling 80k hypervisors and 60Pb storage14:29
ttxOr LINE, which *tripled* its OpenStack footprint over the last year alone, reaching 35k VMs (CERN's level)14:30
mnaserwow, that's awesome14:30
ttxIn those discussions there was a common thread, which is the need to improve scalability14:30
ttxWhat's even more awesome is taht they run those with pretty little teams14:30
ttxIt's currently hard to go beyond a certain size (500-1000 hypervisors / cluster), and those users would love to14:30
ttxThey cited RabbitMQ starting to fall apart, API responses to things like listing VMs getting too slow14:31
zanebttx: was that a typo? reasonably confident CERN has more than 35k VMs :)14:31
ttxObviously I tried to push them to invest upstream in that specific area14:31
ttxzaneb: I'm pretty sure they are not. 36k VMs was last count14:31
mnaserttx: mriedem actaully raised this email to the mailing list a few days ago14:31
zaneboh, ok14:31
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ttxbut they also run Magnum clusters which might not be included14:32
ttxanyway -- I realized I had nowhere to really point them to14:32
ttxWe used to have a bunch of groups tackling that "large scale" angle14:32
ttxWe had the "Performance" team which was formed around Rally and osprofiler, but died in The Big Mirantis Shakedown14:32
ttxWe have the "Large Deployments" team on the UC side, but afaict it is inactive since 201514:32
ttxIt feels like we need a place to point people interested in openly collaborating to tackle that specific "large scale" angle14:32
ttxDo you think a "Large scale" SIG could make sense ?14:32
ttx(assuming we clean up the remnants of the former teams)14:33
mugsieI think it does, as long as people actually show up for it14:33
* mnaser looks at current list of sigs14:33
jrollit seems like it makes sense, but are there people to join the sig and do the work?14:33
ttxI feel like it's easier to point people to a thing that is forming (Large scale SIG), than to a thing that is dead (Large deployemnt team)14:33
TheJuliaI suspect it could because the larger operators I think of are the scientific operators, and commercial operators may not realize the scale the scientific folks tend to operate at14:33
gmannyeah that is important point to get the volunteer first14:34
ricolinttx any chances you mention this SIG idea to LINE or Yahoo JP? Just wondering what they think about this14:34
mugsieyeah. sigs are cheap anyway, so if it fails to get traction we can spin it back down14:34
ttxor even to ask them as their first contribution to set up a SIG14:34
mriedemtbc, my email started from a conversation in -nova with eandersson (blizzard)14:34
mriedemwho is last i checked not a scientist14:34
ttxricolin: yes -- I just wanted to check the idea with y'all before pushing14:34
ttxYahoo and LINE are not scientists14:34
fungiwe're all scientists here ;)14:34
ttxYahooJapan should I say, different from YahooInc14:35
mnaserok so it makes sense to have something seperate for it14:35
ttxI just wanted to gut-check that it was not a stupid idea14:35
* mnaser would be +2 on a change that is proposed to create a sig from their part14:35
ricolinttx it's a great idea IMO:)14:35
* jroll would also +2 that14:35
ttxLike YahooJapan was talking of running new benchmarks on oslo.mesaging backends14:35
jrollworst case nobody joins and we're in the same spot14:35
ttxI'd love if they did it as part of that new group14:36
gmann+1 having something and in active state can be very useful for other org also.14:36
ttxI'll try to compile a list of orgs that may be interested in participating14:36
mnaserttx: should i make that an action to you to reach out to them and contact them?14:36
ttxLet's see if we can get some momentum around that. If not, taht;s not a big cost14:36
fungii guess one other example is the (presumably definct) lcoo "large contributing openstack operator" working group14:37
ttxmnaser: yes sure! Anyone else interested in helping?14:37
ttxfungi: yeah I tried not to mention that one14:37
fungiheh, fair14:37
fungiseemed more like an excuse to create a bureaucracy14:37
gmannttx:  your plan is to make it immediately ?  or propose the idea in shanghai forum and see the response and volunteer  ?14:37
ricolinttx I will go update some SIG guideline docs so this process might be easier for new SIG like this14:37
mnaseryou can tag me on, i can help being there and sharing operator knowledge but i dont know if i have a ton of bandwidth to do 'run' the sig itself14:37
ttxgmann: in time to get people together in Shanghai, for sure14:37
ricolinif we early start this SIG, like right this/next week, it can propose it's own PTG schedule14:38
mnaser#action ricolin update sig guidelines to simplify process for new sigs14:38
ttxThe whole story is also a useful reminder that we have lots of users out there, mostly invisible... and really need to bridge that gap and get them involved14:38
jrollI'll try to recruit some folks from verizon media to work with the sig as well, we're getting to a point where we might have some people-time to contribute14:39
ttxI see this SIG as a way to make it win-win14:39
mnaser#action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large operators' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media)14:39
mnaseri think the hardest part is getting someone to take care of the logistics14:39
ttxmnaser: I said "Large scale", not "Large operators" because I feel like it's a slightly different concern14:39
mnaserpeople will show up and talk but the whole note keeping / scheduling / running things is where people might disappear and not do14:39
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large operators' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media)14:39
fungiscalability sig ;)14:39
mnaser#action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large scale' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media)14:40
ttxYou can be happily operating smaller clusters14:40
ttxthis is about scaling cluster size14:40
ttxand pushing things like cells in other projects14:40
ttxpushing the limits basically14:40
ttxI agree the overlap with large operators is probably very significant14:41
* mnaser plays 'push it to the limit'14:41
mnaserbut yeah, i agree, i think that's very useful14:41
ttxIt's a bit more.. targeted than just shring operations woes between large operators14:41
ttxanyway, thanks for helping me gut-check if that was a good idea14:42
ricolinit's also a good place to target with Ironic power sync issue with large scale or co-work that issue with baremetal SIG:)14:42
mnasercool, with that we've gone through most of our topics.14:42
mnaser#topic other discussions14:42
*** openstack changes topic to "other discussions (Meeting topic: tc)"14:42
mnaseranyone (tc or not) have any things that was not on our agenda that's not office-hours-y ?14:42
ttxICYMI, Cinder is about to remove half of their drivers because they did not update to Py314:42
ttxOSF is looking at pulling a few more strings to see if that triggers any last-minute save, but I'm not very optimistic14:43
mnaserwow, that much?14:43
mnaseri diidn't click but didnt know there was that much14:43
ttxmnaser: that is how I interpret that etherpad14:43
gmannyeah, I am  trying to contact NEC driver team to migrate to py314:43
mnaserthis isnt something the community can help with right?14:44
mnaserbecause the CI inherently is just running py214:44
ttxmnaser: not really14:44
gmannmain  thing is CI access14:44
gmanneven as NEC contributor I do not have their CI access so cannot help on that14:44
ttxthere might be some ex tra review work on Cinder if driver teams suddenly wake up14:44
ttxbut otherwise it's mostly about kncking at every door we know of14:45
TheJuliaWith ironic, I had to explicitly go to each 3rd party CI and ask for them to plan and account for switching approximately half their jobs to py3. It took some leg work, but most everyone was responsive....14:45
fungisounds like a bunch of the cinder driver maintainers/ci operators are just not responsive at all14:46
TheJuliaEssentially it was "knocking on every door"14:46
ttxTheJulia: yeah, maybe that approach was not doable with Cinder14:46
mnaserlets remember openstack-discuss is huge traffic, it might just not be visible14:46
mnaserdoes the user survey capture cinder drivers used?14:46
jrollI suspect people will show up and complain when the patch goes up to remove it14:46
fungiwell, jay reached out to them all individually, he said14:46
ttxJay did send emails to the contact emails he had14:47
fungiand something like half never replied at all14:47
smcginnisjungleboyj has tried emailing all the contact info listed in the third party CI wiki, but apparently the info there is very out of date or black hole addresses.14:47
ttxwhich may point to outdated contact info, but in the end same result14:47
fungiwe do also have a third-party ci announcements ml we recommend they all subscribe to14:47
TheJuliaWhat about last people to edit the files?14:47
ttxThat's why we are pulling contact strings we have for OSF member companies14:47
ttxthose are likely still active and may trigger a response14:48
mnaseri think that's probably the best way to move forward14:48
smcginnisMy take is that the removal of some of these might be a good thing. And for the others, maybe a good wake up call to get them to know that they can't just put out driver code and assume they are done if they want to stay up to date.14:48
fungiit's a bit of a dead-man switch, yes14:49
ricolinsmcginnis, agree14:49
fungiperiodic overhauls have a tendency to shake out what's not actually being maintained14:49
mnaserif it does get pulled and some vendor realizes this once the release is out14:49
mnaseris it possible that cinder uses an 'out of tree' driver?14:50
mnaseras a stop gap till it makes it again in the upcoming release?14:50
fungithere are scads of oot drivers for cinder, if memory serves14:50
smcginnismnaser: Customers are always able to use out of tree drivers and we do have some vendors that prefer that route versus being upstream.14:50
zanebthe part where we find out which drivers aren't maintained is good. the part where there are a lot of drivers not really being maintained is not good14:50
mnaseri am just trying to think of the operators/users that can at least work on a temporarily route till they add support again or what14:50
smcginnisYep, that would be a valid option for them.14:51
gmannmarking unsupported and warning on multiple platform ML, newsletter etc can be good before removing.14:52
mnaserok so as long as its workaround-able for our users, im happy with removing them14:52
gmannttx: should we add it in newsletter if not so late ?14:52
fungialso the point at which vendors stop caring about particular hardware or platforms is the point at which those that are still popular may see new grassroots support teams form around them from their users14:52
mnaseri dunno if we wanna use our newsletter to 'shame' those who arent maintaining things :p14:52
ttxgmann: it's really too targeted of a message for the newsletter imho14:52
smcginnisfungi: ++14:52
mnaser(or might just not know that they're out of date because someone forgot to update a contact email)14:52
funginumerous drivers in the linux kernel are not maintained by vendors or commercial integrators, but by users who want their hardware to keep working14:53
dhellmannI think it's healthy for us to be encouraging out of tree drivers14:53
TheJuliaAt some point, you just have to remove them though. You can warn and try to raise red flags again, but if people are not maintaining it is better to remove them... no matter how painful it feels for the project leaders.14:53
jrollTheJulia: ++14:53
mnaserwanted to leave a bit more time for any other topics if any other community or tc members had that weren't office hour-y ?14:53
ttxagreed, just want to do a bit more due diligence with people we have contacts with14:53
ttxtry to catch the 5% who accidentally overlooked it14:54
fungiin other topics, new openstack security advisory this week14:54
dhellmannttx: ++14:54
ttxnot the 95% who did not pay attention since rocky14:54
fungittx: not sure if you've checked the announce ml moderation queue, it may be hung up in there for the past couple days14:54
fungiossa-2019-003 is also an interesting test case for our extended maintenance model14:55
fungimriedem made patches all the way back to stable/ocata14:55
ttxI don;t get notified so14:55
ttxfungi:  done14:55
fungithanks ttx!14:56
ttxfungi: you might want to add yourself to that one and be able to clear OSSAs14:56
jrollaren't we still supposed to merge things to extended maintenance branches?14:56
fungittx: happy to, thanks for the invitation14:56
* jroll notes that ocata isn't merged14:56
fungii'm personally curious to see how long it takes to get changes merged to some of the older stable branches, particularly how viable the ci jobs still are14:56
mnaseri think the topics are slowly moving towards office hour-y things so ill close us up :)14:56
mnaserwe can carry this conversation onto office hours14:57
fungithanks mnaser!14:57
mnaserthanks everyone!14:57
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | | channel logs"14:57
ricolinmnaser, thx14:57
openstackMeeting ended Thu Aug  8 14:57:11 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)14:57
ttxthanks mnaser14:57
openstackMinutes (text):
evrardjpjroll: define "best effort " ? :)14:57
gmannthanks mnaser14:57
evrardjpthanks mnaser14:57
fungijroll: if you look at you'll see that only train, stein and rocky have merged so far14:58
mnaserfungi: has time to grab a coffee before office hours (and the usual security conflict :P)14:58
mnaserits probably just a matter of pinging nova-cores14:58
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mriedemnova-core != nova-stable-maint14:58
funginah, they've been working their way through them14:58
mriedemjroll: people don't have to merge changes to pike and ocata14:58
ricolinI would like to propose a quick U release naming poll inner TCs in this office hour to finalize the list, what you guys think?14:59
mriedembut the branches are stable, and i've been proposing changes14:59
jrollfungi: gotcha14:59
fungithe only one outstanding which is technically under stable maintenance at this point is queens14:59
jrollmriedem: yeah, I know we don't have to, I just assumed that was the goal, but maybe I should be patient14:59
dhellmannricolin : I think it would be good to get some sign off, since I know zaneb had objections to raise with some of the items on the list14:59
fungionce the stable/queens fix merges the vmt will consider the ossa bugtask resolved14:59
zanebricolin: +115:00
fungisince, as mentioned, pike and ocata are "best effort"15:00
ricolindhellmann, so how this usually done? singing name after another or we need to use tools?15:00
mnasermaybe we can use openstack bot to do a poll15:00
mnaserive never used it for that though.15:00
gmannyeah that's better15:01
dhellmannI don't think we need to be very formal about it. Maybe make sure is up to date and then ask people to sign off?15:01
dhellmannor use the bot, that would work, too15:01
dhellmannassuming folks are still around -- I'm about to go offline for ~1 hr15:01
fungii am half around15:01
fungi(and half in the security sig meeting)15:01
ricolinI think we can do it on etherpad so other TCs will have time to go through15:01
ricolinsounds good to all?15:02
fungiso based on earlier discussion in here, was "university" getting re-added, or still intentionally omitted?15:02
dhellmannI intentionally dropped it but will not argue if others want to add it back15:02
ricolinfungi, good question15:02
dhellmannas zaneb points out, I expect the fewer english words we include the more of a chance we have of ensuring one of the chinese locations is selected15:03
mriedemjroll: things aren't going to merge in ocata until pike is merged, and pike won't merge until queens, etc15:03
mugsiepersonally, I would drop university. I know it has a meaning, but it is a little too generic, and has previous uses in the communiy15:03
ricolinthe trademark thing is tricky...15:03
gmanni agree on zaneb point.15:03
fungii think the idea was to celebrate the diversity of universities in shanghai, so at least it's more shanghai-oriented than names of rivers in mongolia15:04
dhellmannthat's fair15:04
zanebI would drop university mainly because I think the foundation marketing folks will veto it anyway15:04
* dhellmann wanders off15:04
jrollmriedem: yep, I understand, I didn't dig enough before firing that comment15:04
jrollsorry about that15:05
funginote that the poll is a ranked list, so if university wins and still gets stricken from the usable names, it doesn't impact the consensus on the next items in the poll after it15:05
ricolinsince there are argument, I will not put it in etherpad for inner TC voting15:05
mnaseris there any reason we're narrowing down the list specifically ?15:05
mriedemjroll: heh not a problem, i know you love the ocata15:06
fungiif we're striking it because we think osf marketing will strike it, then that would only be to save them the trouble (and i don't know that it's a massive burden for them)15:06
ricolinfungi, so when will the marketing guys join to see if that list is valid?15:07
zanebricolin: after voting15:07
mnaseri belive this happens post voting15:07
mnaserso if option #1 is unacceptable, we pick option #215:07
mnaseras fungi explained, the voting gives us ordered results15:07
ricolinzaneb, mnaser got it, not like a idea model, but I respect that15:08
zanebso I think Urban and University have some support. do any of the other non-conforming options have any support?15:08
mnaserso because of that, i dont know if i personally want to veto things off before they're voted on, i'm just not personally comfortable with that anyways15:09
mnaserbut i won't stop anyone else who want sto15:09
ttxUnicorn is a good testament to how painful this name selection was... but people may then vote for it for the wrong reasons15:10
ttxWe already have better exceptions anyway15:11
ricolinIMO any option with at least a TC's support will be good to be in the list if no other strong against anyway15:11
ricolinbut that just me15:12
ttxThe real risk with ANY englisg word addition is that our overwhelming majority of English-speaking voters will make it win15:12
evrardjpttx: not sure about that15:13
mnaserwhich is why i want to abstain from this and keep it to 'places in china' *shrug*15:13
ttxNot sure how much of a slap in the face that would be for the Chinese community15:13
fungiocata made the cut15:13
fungias did mitaka15:13
zanebricolin: it sounds like we should conduct informal polls of TC members on support for Urban and University and ditch the reset of the english words15:13
evrardjpbut unicorn though15:13
evrardjpwho doesn't love unicorns15:13
evrardjpthat's a risk15:13
ttxfungi: Was there english options on those votes ?15:13
evrardjpmnaser: agreed with you15:13
fungittx: yeah, that's the bit i don't recall15:13
ttxNot for O15:14
ttx(like we did not include Ocean15:14
ttxand not for M either15:14
ttx(we did not include Machine)15:15
fungijust keep in mind that the non-english names we're talking about on that list are also not what most chinese folks would probably consider chinese words either15:15
ttx(nor Metropolis)15:15
fungiso we're not talking about omitting non-chinese words, we're talking about specifically omitting english words15:15
zanebor MURICA which was apparently one proposal(!)
ttxfungi: yes and that is the only reason why I would not object15:15
evrardjpSorry to be a buzkill (if that's the proper term), but do we really need to discuss this? Did I really misunderstood and those proposed names are not right?15:15
ttx"set the patriotism dial to 11"15:15
evrardjpttx: :)15:16
zanebwell if we don't discuss it then none of those names should be on the list because they don't meet the criteria15:16
ricolinI guess we can just do in this way, TCs go +/-1on options in the list, which ever overcome the vote, wins?15:16
zanebwe can choose to add some names that don't otherwise meet the criteria if we agree they should be on the list anyway15:17
ttxAdding symbolic names should stay an exception rather than a rule15:17
ttxotherwise let's just say we pick any word15:17
ttxI'm not sure Urban or University are ... compelling enough to justify the exception15:18
ricolinttx indeed15:18
* zaneb is -1 on Urban, -0 on University15:18
ttxespecially in a case where the exception is very likely to win the election as the only english name on the menu15:19
ricolinthis run back to the very first question, should we even allow exception for U at all?15:19
ttxMy preference would be for no exception. If we do make an exception, then add Urban AND University15:20
ricolinI think Tim from ML also propose no exception too this time15:20
evrardjpttx: agreed15:20
ttxI'm happy to yield to majority, I feel like we've spent enough energy on this15:21
gmannso what all names are gone in case of no exception ? Urban and University only15:21
fungiyeah, i'm good with only place names15:21
ricolinI will too vote for no exception15:21
ttxMaybe set up a Condorcet TC vote between none, Urban, University, Urban+University15:21
ttxI can do tat very quickly15:21
zaneba little weird but that works15:22
gmannor just say 'no exception' or 'exception'15:22
fungithere was sort of a case made that university describes a place as there is a "university of shanghai for science and technology" but as zaneb points out, university is a general class of place so would be akin to words like "street" or "plaza"15:23
ricolinttx +115:23
zanebgmann: that doesn't help us choose which exceptions if 'exception' wins15:23
gmann:) it would not i think15:23
ttxalmost there15:23
smcginnisNon-TC voice, but I would say we have enough good "native" names that we should just go with those and not have the exceptions. I do like Urban and University, but it seems better to me to try to go with the actual place names.15:23
fungigranted, those place names are all very far from shanghai15:25
ttxalright ready to fire15:26
fungiit's like if we had the summit in new york and named the release for a place in california15:26
ttxy'all have email15:26
ricolinttx thx15:27
* mugsie goes to google translate :P 15:27
ttxah yes, I forgot to set my LANG=C15:27
ttxsorry about that15:27
mugsiemy less than high school french is coming in handy15:27
fungii can still find the url in it. good enough for me even if high school was decades ago15:28
ttxyes click on the URL15:28
ttxPerl is alive15:28
ricolinI'm done:)15:29
ttxmnaser: let me know when you think it's appropriate to close the vote15:29
fungii have voted15:29
* zaneb too15:29
mnaserttx: i dunno how condorcet works -- do you see the results?15:29
fungiwhen the poll is closed there will be a public url for the results15:30
ttxmnaser: I close it, and then you have the results accessible at that url15:30
mnaserhow much are we in a rush to get this answer?15:30
mnaseri guess from now till tomorrow should be enough (granted we have enough people vote that it gives us an answer)15:30
ttxmnaser: it's blocking the actual poll15:30
mnaserbut the actual pol is not scheduled till the 1215:30
mnaseri think it was the 12 anyways15:30
ttxyes, let's have it run for the day15:31
ricolinonce this is done, the list will be out15:31
mnasertc-members: you should have an email from ttx in french for a vote regarding ^15:31
gmanni did not get yet15:31
ttxsent to the address in is what i got15:31
ricolinsearch mail 'Poll: U naming exceptions15:32
fungiit might be greylisted for some senders, so i would give at least 15-30 minutes for it to arrive15:32
ttx6 votes in15:32
zanebgmann: maybe your spam filter is deleting messages in French ;)15:32
fungier, for some recipients i mean15:32
mnaserttx: maybe see what it looks like for you tomorrow in your AM15:33
gmannno :) at least it should in spam but no15:33
mnaserid say if we're at 8-10 then thats good enough15:33
ttxyes let's see how it looks like tomorrow when you get up15:33
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ricolinjust strike out the rest names which not meet criteria from
ricolinwill see if urban and University make it or not15:37
jrolloh no I have to make decisions D:15:41
fungiyou don't *have* to make any decision at all15:41
jrollI would feel bad not making one, heh15:42
fungiyou can rank them all the same, or just not cast your ballot (which is roughly equivalent)15:42
fungisee, you've already decided not to feel bad15:42
gmanngot now, done15:42
fungiyeah, it was probably greylisted as i suspected15:43
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ttx9 answers to the poll so far19:00
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