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| openstackgerrit | Tony Breeds proposed openstack/governance master: Change PTL for the Release Team https://review.opendev.org/675246 | 04:11 |
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| evrardjp | o/ | 08:13 |
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| ricolin | o/ | 08:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Add Swift mission into governance https://review.opendev.org/675307 | 11:56 |
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| jroll | ^ would be good to have a timburke ack on this :) | 12:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add URL to rpm-packaging https://review.opendev.org/673837 | 13:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Make mission required in projects.yaml https://review.opendev.org/675335 | 13:20 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Resolution: Mandatory Repository Retirement https://review.opendev.org/670741 | 13:28 |
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| mnaser | tc-members: our monthly meeting is starting in 15 minutes | 13:46 |
| gmann | o/ | 13:46 |
| jroll | I will be multitasking meetings today :( | 13:46 |
| *** ricolin_ is now known as ricolin | 13:55 | |
| ricolin | o/ | 13:55 |
| mugsie | I will be on mobile for the first bit - I hit the update button my laptop 25 mins ago, and it still isn't done -_- | 13:57 |
| ttx | mugsie: I hope it will not affect your gif game | 13:58 |
| ttx | mugsie: 25min... update... are you working at Microsoft or what | 13:58 |
| mnaser | =P | 13:58 |
| mugsie | Ironically, it is my MacBook that is updating | 13:59 |
| ttx | It's patch Tuesday, only it's Thursday now | 13:59 |
| ricolin | mugsie, when is the last time you update it?! | 13:59 |
| ttx | mugsie: oh well, at least at the end it will still be working | 14:00 |
| mnaser | #startmeeting tc | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Aug 8 14:00:12 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mnaser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 14:00 |
| mnaser | #topic roll call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:00 | |
| ricolin | o/ | 14:00 |
| ttx | ohai | 14:00 |
| mnaser | o/ | 14:00 |
| mnaser | welcome tc-members :) | 14:01 |
| gmann | o/ | 14:01 |
| fungi | welcome to you as well | 14:01 |
| zaneb | ahoy | 14:01 |
| jroll | \o | 14:02 |
| mugsie | o/ | 14:02 |
| mnaser | ok so i count atleast 7 of us if my math is right | 14:02 |
| *** cdent has joined #openstack-tc | 14:02 | |
| ttx | that is 7 | 14:02 |
| mnaser | and i think my math tells me that we're good | 14:02 |
| ttx | evrardjp was here earlier | 14:03 |
| zaneb | I count 8 | 14:03 |
| fungi | i have not had enough caffeine to math yet | 14:03 |
| mnaser | heh, well lets get started. | 14:03 |
| mnaser | #topic Follow up on past action items | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:03 | |
| mnaser | #info fungi to add himself as TC liaison for Image Encryption popup team | 14:03 |
| mnaser | i believe this was already done and addressed | 14:03 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 14:03 |
| fungi | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/popup-teams.html#image-encryption | 14:04 |
| fungi | like ragu, it's in there | 14:04 |
| * dhellmann slides in the back late | 14:04 | |
| mnaser | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/670370/ | 14:04 |
| mnaser | cool | 14:04 |
| mnaser | #info fungi to draft a resolution on proper retirement procedures | 14:04 |
| mnaser | this merged not long ago | 14:05 |
| mnaser | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/670741/ | 14:05 |
| mnaser | and on our website | 14:05 |
| mnaser | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/20190711-mandatory-repository-retirement.html | 14:05 |
| fungi | cool, i missed it getting approved | 14:05 |
| mnaser | happened before your coffee :) | 14:05 |
| mnaser | #topic Active initiatives | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Active initiatives (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:06 | |
| mnaser | #info Python 3: mnaser to sync up with swift team on python3 migration | 14:06 |
| mnaser | i believe that this is probably wrapped up, most of the patches are in and i think that swift is ok for py3? gmann mentioned something about this too | 14:06 |
| gmann | yeah py3 integration job is running fine on swift. | 14:06 |
| gmann | timburke also removed swift from disable-py3-repo list on devstack side. | 14:07 |
| mugsie | http://replygif.net/i/417.gif | 14:07 |
| mnaser | looks like its also moving well -- https://review.opendev.org/#/q/topic:py3-func-tests+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 14:07 |
| mnaser | so thats awesome | 14:07 |
| mnaser | #info mugsie to sync with dhellmann or release-team to find the code for the proposal bot | 14:07 |
| mnaser | sorry this one wasnt written out nicely | 14:07 |
| mugsie | I found it | 14:07 |
| mugsie | and am working on it at the moment | 14:07 |
| mnaser | ok cool, for context -- this is making sure that when we cut a branch, proposal bot automatically pushes up a patch to add the 'jobs' for that series | 14:08 |
| mugsie | there was some work done in the goal tools repo already, so trying to not re-write the world | 14:08 |
| mnaser | ..right? | 14:08 |
| mugsie | yes | 14:08 |
| mugsie | speaking of, we should add the task of defining versions to our TODO list | 14:09 |
| zaneb | mugsie: some of the stuff from https://review.opendev.org/#/c/666934/ might help | 14:09 |
| gmann | 'jobs' ? for new python version right ?or stable ? | 14:09 |
| mnaser | gmann: i think the 'series' specific job templates | 14:09 |
| mnaser | like openstack-python-train-jobs or whatever it's called now | 14:09 |
| mugsie | for the openstack-python3-train-job templates | 14:09 |
| gmann | ok | 14:09 |
| mnaser | ok, well that's progressing so we'll follow up on that.. we still have sometime before the next release but it'd be nice to have it ready a little bit before | 14:10 |
| gmann | one difficulties in that might be few projects might need old py version testing like charm-* | 14:10 |
| mugsie | gmann: they can add custom ones as needed, these are just for a standard set | 14:10 |
| gmann | mugsie: yeah. adding new should be ok as long as we do not remove their old supported one | 14:11 |
| mugsie | charm-* *should* be good, as we based the py3 version off the LTS py3 version for each distro | 14:11 |
| mnaser | ok, we can discuss more of the impl. details in office hours :> | 14:11 |
| gmann | for exmaple, they need to test and support py35 | 14:11 |
| gmann | yeah. we can discuss later | 14:12 |
| mugsie | =1 | 14:12 |
| mugsie | +1* | 14:12 |
| mnaser | #info Forum follow-up: ttx to organise Milestone 2 forum meeting with tc-members (done) | 14:12 |
| ttx | yeah so we raised it and etherpads were created | 14:12 |
| ttx | let me dig links | 14:13 |
| ttx | We only have one volunteer (jroll) for the programming committee | 14:13 |
| ttx | anyone else interested in the short list not going for reelection? | 14:13 |
| mnaser | the proposed list was: asettle mugsie jroll mnaser ricolin, ttx and zaneb. (those that qualify) | 14:14 |
| mnaser | any volunteers? :> | 14:15 |
| ttx | mnaser: is there a specific document for Forum topics ideas ? | 14:15 |
| ttx | I can only find a PTG one | 14:15 |
| mnaser | ttx: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-brainstorming ? | 14:15 |
| ttx | ok | 14:15 |
| mugsie | I would like to do it, but not sure on time commitments - what was the requirements ? | 14:15 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-brainstorming | 14:15 |
| ttx | mugsie: Beyond encouraging people to submit proposals, the bulk of the selection committee work happens after the submission deadline (planned for Sept 16th) and the Forum program final selection (planned for Oct 7th). | 14:15 |
| ttx | you help select, refine, merge. But there aren't taht many proposals so it's less work imho that a conference track chair | 14:16 |
| cdent | i did it last time, we accepted everything | 14:16 |
| mugsie | OK, I don't have travel planned right now, so I should be OK for that | 14:16 |
| cdent | because there wasn't enough | 14:16 |
| ttx | yes, usually it's more about merging duplicates | 14:16 |
| cdent | i assume the situation will be similar this time | 14:16 |
| ttx | and deciding what is worth doublesessions | 14:17 |
| fungi | i heard rumors we may not be able to accept every forum proposal this time around, but i don't really know what the capacity for it is | 14:17 |
| ttx | basically aligning the number of slots available with the proposals received | 14:17 |
| fungi | also it probably depends a bunch on how many sessions get proposed in the first place | 14:18 |
| mnaser | fair enough, ok, so mugsie is a "maybe" and we can discuss that a 'tad bit more in office hours or over the ml | 14:18 |
| mnaser | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008188.html | 14:18 |
| ttx | ++ | 14:18 |
| mnaser | #topic Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667932/) | 14:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667932/) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:18 | |
| ttx | I expect jimmy and Kendall to reach out soon for names | 14:18 |
| mnaser | #undo | 14:18 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: #topic Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667932/) | 14:18 |
| mnaser | #info Make goal selection a two-step process (needs reviews at https://review.opendev.org/#/c/667932/) | 14:18 |
| ricolin | ttx count me in for volunteer | 14:18 |
| ttx | Yeah this is still missing reviews, no standing -1 | 14:19 |
| ttx | so please review so we can cross it out | 14:19 |
| mnaser | its been sitting around for a while so yeah | 14:19 |
| gmann | i will do that tomorrow | 14:20 |
| ricolin | I really think we need to done this long before summit so we actually got time to sort/get more the proposal lists | 14:20 |
| mnaser | good idea, well please lets go through it when you can then (but after we're done :)) | 14:21 |
| mnaser | #topic Attendance for leadership meeting during Shanghai Summit on 3 November | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Attendance for leadership meeting during Shanghai Summit on 3 November (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:21 | |
| mnaser | alan reached out to me about this | 14:21 |
| mnaser | wondering who from the tc might be able to make it then (and i assume this is somewhat related to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-PTG) | 14:21 |
| ttx | I should be there unless my visa applciation goes wrong | 14:22 |
| mnaser | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PVG-TC-PTG | 14:22 |
| mugsie | I should be there | 14:22 |
| zaneb | I expect to be there | 14:22 |
| * ricolin will definitely be there | 14:22 | |
| mnaser | is it safe to assume that anyone going to ptg will likely be at that leadership meeting? | 14:22 |
| ttx | probably | 14:22 |
| zaneb | of people already on the TC, I'd say yes | 14:22 |
| mnaser | ok, we have 5 names down | 14:22 |
| gmann | i will be there but did not add my name till election... | 14:23 |
| mnaser | oh yes, that's happening | 14:23 |
| mnaser | anyone know off the top of their head | 14:23 |
| mnaser | when the election starts/ends | 14:23 |
| TheJulia | I was just going to mention that would be a thing... | 14:23 |
| TheJulia | I think nominations opens end of August timeframe | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | nominations start on 27th | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | https://governance.openstack.org/election/ | 14:23 |
| ttx | TC Nominations | 14:23 |
| ttx | 14:23 | |
| ttx | Aug 27, 2019 23:45 UTC | 14:24 |
| ttx | 14:24 | |
| ttx | Sep 03, 2019 23:45 UTC | 14:24 |
| ttx | 14:24 | |
| mnaser | ouch so only by Sep 17, 2019 23:45 UTC can we really have a final tc list | 14:24 |
| ttx | Sep 17, 2019 23:45 UTC | 14:24 |
| ttx | Election end ^ | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 14:24 |
| mnaser | that might be hard for those who are on the "i can go if i hold a role" thing | 14:24 |
| ttx | probably too late for people to join the leadership thing if they did not plan to | 14:24 |
| mnaser | we should probably address that timeframe issue for the future | 14:25 |
| fungi | i expect to be i shanghai at the board/leadership meeting, but as my term is up i will refrain from listing myself as an attendee unless reelected | 14:25 |
| mnaser | fair enough | 14:25 |
| ttx | To be fair, the leadership thing does not require everyone imho | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | mnaser : the usual approach has been to recommend that candidates be prepared to attend, but travel budgets aren't what they used to be | 14:26 |
| ttx | I've been advocating for the people who are there to represent the others | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | ttx makes a good point | 14:26 |
| mnaser | yeah and also 1 month before the actual summit itself is hard for people in general | 14:26 |
| ttx | PTG is a much more important moment imho | 14:26 |
| mnaser | esp. if theres a process like a visa or something | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | especially with the change in the nature of that meeting | 14:26 |
| fungi | if reelected, i'll do my best to represent the positions of other tc members who cannot attend | 14:26 |
| ttx | i.e everyone should participate in drafting the message/position, and whoever can make it can represent | 14:27 |
| mnaser | so i think at the end of the day, our message to alan will be: yes, the tc will have a presence at the leadership meeting | 14:27 |
| ttx | some presence | 14:27 |
| fungi | sounds right | 14:27 |
| mnaser | #action mnaser to contact alan to mention that tc will have some presence at shanghai leadership meeting | 14:27 |
| fungi | we can have more precise numbers at the end of next month | 14:27 |
| mnaser | cool, that sounds good to me | 14:28 |
| mnaser | anyone has anything before moving on the next topic? | 14:28 |
| mnaser | ETIMEOUT | 14:29 |
| mnaser | #topic Reviving Performance WG / Large deployment team into a Large scale SIG (ttx) | 14:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reviving Performance WG / Large deployment team into a Large scale SIG (ttx) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:29 | |
| ttx | Yeah, so a couple of weeks ago I was in Japan visiting some large OpenStack users | 14:29 |
| ttx | Yahoo! Japan for example, which runs 160+ clusters totalling 80k hypervisors and 60Pb storage | 14:29 |
| ttx | Or LINE, which *tripled* its OpenStack footprint over the last year alone, reaching 35k VMs (CERN's level) | 14:30 |
| mnaser | wow, that's awesome | 14:30 |
| ttx | In those discussions there was a common thread, which is the need to improve scalability | 14:30 |
| ttx | What's even more awesome is taht they run those with pretty little teams | 14:30 |
| ttx | It's currently hard to go beyond a certain size (500-1000 hypervisors / cluster), and those users would love to | 14:30 |
| ttx | They cited RabbitMQ starting to fall apart, API responses to things like listing VMs getting too slow | 14:31 |
| zaneb | ttx: was that a typo? reasonably confident CERN has more than 35k VMs :) | 14:31 |
| ttx | Obviously I tried to push them to invest upstream in that specific area | 14:31 |
| cdent | ++ | 14:31 |
| ttx | zaneb: I'm pretty sure they are not. 36k VMs was last count | 14:31 |
| gmann | +1 | 14:31 |
| mnaser | ttx: mriedem actaully raised this email to the mailing list a few days ago | 14:31 |
| zaneb | oh, ok | 14:31 |
| *** cdent has quit IRC | 14:31 | |
| mnaser | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008204.html | 14:31 |
| ttx | but they also run Magnum clusters which might not be included | 14:32 |
| ttx | anyway -- I realized I had nowhere to really point them to | 14:32 |
| ttx | We used to have a bunch of groups tackling that "large scale" angle | 14:32 |
| ttx | We had the "Performance" team which was formed around Rally and osprofiler, but died in The Big Mirantis Shakedown | 14:32 |
| ttx | We have the "Large Deployments" team on the UC side, but afaict it is inactive since 2015 | 14:32 |
| ttx | It feels like we need a place to point people interested in openly collaborating to tackle that specific "large scale" angle | 14:32 |
| ttx | Do you think a "Large scale" SIG could make sense ? | 14:32 |
| ttx | (assuming we clean up the remnants of the former teams) | 14:33 |
| mugsie | I think it does, as long as people actually show up for it | 14:33 |
| * mnaser looks at current list of sigs | 14:33 | |
| jroll | it seems like it makes sense, but are there people to join the sig and do the work? | 14:33 |
| ttx | I feel like it's easier to point people to a thing that is forming (Large scale SIG), than to a thing that is dead (Large deployemnt team) | 14:33 |
| TheJulia | I suspect it could because the larger operators I think of are the scientific operators, and commercial operators may not realize the scale the scientific folks tend to operate at | 14:33 |
| gmann | yeah that is important point to get the volunteer first | 14:34 |
| ricolin | ttx any chances you mention this SIG idea to LINE or Yahoo JP? Just wondering what they think about this | 14:34 |
| mugsie | yeah. sigs are cheap anyway, so if it fails to get traction we can spin it back down | 14:34 |
| ttx | or even to ask them as their first contribution to set up a SIG | 14:34 |
| mriedem | tbc, my email started from a conversation in -nova with eandersson (blizzard) | 14:34 |
| mriedem | who is last i checked not a scientist | 14:34 |
| ttx | ricolin: yes -- I just wanted to check the idea with y'all before pushing | 14:34 |
| ttx | Yahoo and LINE are not scientists | 14:34 |
| fungi | we're all scientists here ;) | 14:34 |
| ttx | YahooJapan should I say, different from YahooInc | 14:35 |
| mnaser | ok so it makes sense to have something seperate for it | 14:35 |
| ttx | I just wanted to gut-check that it was not a stupid idea | 14:35 |
| * mnaser would be +2 on a change that is proposed to create a sig from their part | 14:35 | |
| ricolin | ttx it's a great idea IMO:) | 14:35 |
| * jroll would also +2 that | 14:35 | |
| ttx | Like YahooJapan was talking of running new benchmarks on oslo.mesaging backends | 14:35 |
| jroll | worst case nobody joins and we're in the same spot | 14:35 |
| ttx | I'd love if they did it as part of that new group | 14:36 |
| gmann | +1 having something and in active state can be very useful for other org also. | 14:36 |
| ttx | I'll try to compile a list of orgs that may be interested in participating | 14:36 |
| mnaser | ttx: should i make that an action to you to reach out to them and contact them? | 14:36 |
| ttx | Let's see if we can get some momentum around that. If not, taht;s not a big cost | 14:36 |
| fungi | i guess one other example is the (presumably definct) lcoo "large contributing openstack operator" working group | 14:37 |
| ttx | mnaser: yes sure! Anyone else interested in helping? | 14:37 |
| ttx | fungi: yeah I tried not to mention that one | 14:37 |
| fungi | heh, fair | 14:37 |
| fungi | seemed more like an excuse to create a bureaucracy | 14:37 |
| gmann | ttx: your plan is to make it immediately ? or propose the idea in shanghai forum and see the response and volunteer ? | 14:37 |
| ricolin | ttx I will go update some SIG guideline docs so this process might be easier for new SIG like this | 14:37 |
| mnaser | you can tag me on, i can help being there and sharing operator knowledge but i dont know if i have a ton of bandwidth to do 'run' the sig itself | 14:37 |
| ttx | gmann: in time to get people together in Shanghai, for sure | 14:37 |
| ricolin | if we early start this SIG, like right this/next week, it can propose it's own PTG schedule | 14:38 |
| mnaser | #action ricolin update sig guidelines to simplify process for new sigs | 14:38 |
| ttx | The whole story is also a useful reminder that we have lots of users out there, mostly invisible... and really need to bridge that gap and get them involved | 14:38 |
| jroll | I'll try to recruit some folks from verizon media to work with the sig as well, we're getting to a point where we might have some people-time to contribute | 14:39 |
| ttx | I see this SIG as a way to make it win-win | 14:39 |
| mnaser | #action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large operators' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media) | 14:39 |
| mnaser | i think the hardest part is getting someone to take care of the logistics | 14:39 |
| ttx | mnaser: I said "Large scale", not "Large operators" because I feel like it's a slightly different concern | 14:39 |
| mnaser | people will show up and talk but the whole note keeping / scheduling / running things is where people might disappear and not do | 14:39 |
| mnaser | #undo | 14:39 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: #action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large operators' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media) | 14:39 |
| fungi | scalability sig ;) | 14:39 |
| mnaser | #action ttx contact interested parties in a new 'large scale' sig (help with mnaser, jroll reaching out to verizon media) | 14:40 |
| ttx | You can be happily operating smaller clusters | 14:40 |
| ttx | this is about scaling cluster size | 14:40 |
| ttx | and pushing things like cells in other projects | 14:40 |
| ttx | pushing the limits basically | 14:40 |
| ttx | I agree the overlap with large operators is probably very significant | 14:41 |
| * mnaser plays 'push it to the limit' | 14:41 | |
| mnaser | but yeah, i agree, i think that's very useful | 14:41 |
| ttx | It's a bit more.. targeted than just shring operations woes between large operators | 14:41 |
| ttx | anyway, thanks for helping me gut-check if that was a good idea | 14:42 |
| ricolin | it's also a good place to target with Ironic power sync issue with large scale or co-work that issue with baremetal SIG:) | 14:42 |
| mnaser | cool, with that we've gone through most of our topics. | 14:42 |
| mnaser | #topic other discussions | 14:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "other discussions (Meeting topic: tc)" | 14:42 | |
| mnaser | anyone (tc or not) have any things that was not on our agenda that's not office-hours-y ? | 14:42 |
| ttx | ICYMI, Cinder is about to remove half of their drivers because they did not update to Py3 | 14:42 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008275.html | 14:43 |
| ttx | OSF is looking at pulling a few more strings to see if that triggers any last-minute save, but I'm not very optimistic | 14:43 |
| mnaser | wow, that much? | 14:43 |
| mnaser | i diidn't click but didnt know there was that much | 14:43 |
| ttx | mnaser: that is how I interpret that etherpad | 14:43 |
| gmann | yeah, I am trying to contact NEC driver team to migrate to py3 | 14:43 |
| mnaser | this isnt something the community can help with right? | 14:44 |
| mnaser | because the CI inherently is just running py2 | 14:44 |
| ttx | mnaser: not really | 14:44 |
| gmann | main thing is CI access | 14:44 |
| gmann | even as NEC contributor I do not have their CI access so cannot help on that | 14:44 |
| ttx | there might be some ex tra review work on Cinder if driver teams suddenly wake up | 14:44 |
| ttx | but otherwise it's mostly about kncking at every door we know of | 14:45 |
| TheJulia | With ironic, I had to explicitly go to each 3rd party CI and ask for them to plan and account for switching approximately half their jobs to py3. It took some leg work, but most everyone was responsive.... | 14:45 |
| fungi | sounds like a bunch of the cinder driver maintainers/ci operators are just not responsive at all | 14:46 |
| TheJulia | Essentially it was "knocking on every door" | 14:46 |
| ttx | TheJulia: yeah, maybe that approach was not doable with Cinder | 14:46 |
| mnaser | lets remember openstack-discuss is huge traffic, it might just not be visible | 14:46 |
| mnaser | does the user survey capture cinder drivers used? | 14:46 |
| jroll | I suspect people will show up and complain when the patch goes up to remove it | 14:46 |
| fungi | well, jay reached out to them all individually, he said | 14:46 |
| ttx | Jay did send emails to the contact emails he had | 14:47 |
| fungi | and something like half never replied at all | 14:47 |
| smcginnis | jungleboyj has tried emailing all the contact info listed in the third party CI wiki, but apparently the info there is very out of date or black hole addresses. | 14:47 |
| ttx | which may point to outdated contact info, but in the end same result | 14:47 |
| fungi | we do also have a third-party ci announcements ml we recommend they all subscribe to | 14:47 |
| TheJulia | What about last people to edit the files? | 14:47 |
| ttx | That's why we are pulling contact strings we have for OSF member companies | 14:47 |
| ttx | those are likely still active and may trigger a response | 14:48 |
| mnaser | i think that's probably the best way to move forward | 14:48 |
| mugsie | +1 | 14:48 |
| smcginnis | My take is that the removal of some of these might be a good thing. And for the others, maybe a good wake up call to get them to know that they can't just put out driver code and assume they are done if they want to stay up to date. | 14:48 |
| fungi | it's a bit of a dead-man switch, yes | 14:49 |
| ricolin | smcginnis, agree | 14:49 |
| fungi | periodic overhauls have a tendency to shake out what's not actually being maintained | 14:49 |
| mnaser | if it does get pulled and some vendor realizes this once the release is out | 14:49 |
| mnaser | is it possible that cinder uses an 'out of tree' driver? | 14:50 |
| mnaser | as a stop gap till it makes it again in the upcoming release? | 14:50 |
| fungi | there are scads of oot drivers for cinder, if memory serves | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | mnaser: Customers are always able to use out of tree drivers and we do have some vendors that prefer that route versus being upstream. | 14:50 |
| zaneb | the part where we find out which drivers aren't maintained is good. the part where there are a lot of drivers not really being maintained is not good | 14:50 |
| mnaser | i am just trying to think of the operators/users that can at least work on a temporarily route till they add support again or what | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | Yep, that would be a valid option for them. | 14:51 |
| gmann | marking unsupported and warning on multiple platform ML, newsletter etc can be good before removing. | 14:52 |
| mnaser | ok so as long as its workaround-able for our users, im happy with removing them | 14:52 |
| gmann | ttx: should we add it in newsletter if not so late ? | 14:52 |
| fungi | also the point at which vendors stop caring about particular hardware or platforms is the point at which those that are still popular may see new grassroots support teams form around them from their users | 14:52 |
| mnaser | i dunno if we wanna use our newsletter to 'shame' those who arent maintaining things :p | 14:52 |
| ttx | gmann: it's really too targeted of a message for the newsletter imho | 14:52 |
| smcginnis | fungi: ++ | 14:52 |
| mnaser | (or might just not know that they're out of date because someone forgot to update a contact email) | 14:52 |
| mnaser | anyways | 14:53 |
| fungi | numerous drivers in the linux kernel are not maintained by vendors or commercial integrators, but by users who want their hardware to keep working | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | I think it's healthy for us to be encouraging out of tree drivers | 14:53 |
| TheJulia | At some point, you just have to remove them though. You can warn and try to raise red flags again, but if people are not maintaining it is better to remove them... no matter how painful it feels for the project leaders. | 14:53 |
| jroll | TheJulia: ++ | 14:53 |
| mnaser | wanted to leave a bit more time for any other topics if any other community or tc members had that weren't office hour-y ? | 14:53 |
| ttx | agreed, just want to do a bit more due diligence with people we have contacts with | 14:53 |
| ttx | try to catch the 5% who accidentally overlooked it | 14:54 |
| fungi | in other topics, new openstack security advisory this week | 14:54 |
| fungi | #link https://security.openstack.org/ossa/OSSA-2019-003.html | 14:54 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 14:54 |
| ttx | not the 95% who did not pay attention since rocky | 14:54 |
| fungi | ttx: not sure if you've checked the announce ml moderation queue, it may be hung up in there for the past couple days | 14:54 |
| ttx | checkimg | 14:55 |
| fungi | ossa-2019-003 is also an interesting test case for our extended maintenance model | 14:55 |
| fungi | mriedem made patches all the way back to stable/ocata | 14:55 |
| ttx | I don;t get notified so | 14:55 |
| ttx | fungi: done | 14:55 |
| fungi | thanks ttx! | 14:56 |
| ttx | fungi: you might want to add yourself to that one and be able to clear OSSAs | 14:56 |
| jroll | aren't we still supposed to merge things to extended maintenance branches? | 14:56 |
| fungi | ttx: happy to, thanks for the invitation | 14:56 |
| * jroll notes that ocata isn't merged | 14:56 | |
| fungi | i'm personally curious to see how long it takes to get changes merged to some of the older stable branches, particularly how viable the ci jobs still are | 14:56 |
| mnaser | i think the topics are slowly moving towards office hour-y things so ill close us up :) | 14:56 |
| mnaser | we can carry this conversation onto office hours | 14:57 |
| fungi | thanks mnaser! | 14:57 |
| mnaser | thanks everyone! | 14:57 |
| mnaser | #endmeeting | 14:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 14:57 | |
| ricolin | mnaser, thx | 14:57 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Aug 8 14:57:11 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:57 |
| ttx | thanks mnaser | 14:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-08-08-14.00.html | 14:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-08-08-14.00.txt | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | jroll: define "best effort " ? :) | 14:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2019/tc.2019-08-08-14.00.log.html | 14:57 |
| gmann | thanks mnaser | 14:57 |
| evrardjp | thanks mnaser | 14:57 |
| fungi | jroll: if you look at https://review.opendev.org/#/q/I5e0a43ec59341c9ac62f89105ddf82c4a014df81 you'll see that only train, stein and rocky have merged so far | 14:58 |
| mnaser | fungi: has time to grab a coffee before office hours (and the usual security conflict :P) | 14:58 |
| fungi | yup | 14:58 |
| mnaser | its probably just a matter of pinging nova-cores | 14:58 |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 14:58 | |
| mriedem | nova-core != nova-stable-maint | 14:58 |
| mnaser | o | 14:58 |
| fungi | nah, they've been working their way through them | 14:58 |
| mriedem | jroll: people don't have to merge changes to pike and ocata | 14:58 |
| ricolin | I would like to propose a quick U release naming poll inner TCs in this office hour to finalize the list, what you guys think? | 14:59 |
| mriedem | but the branches are stable, and i've been proposing changes | 14:59 |
| jroll | fungi: gotcha | 14:59 |
| fungi | the only one outstanding which is technically under stable maintenance at this point is queens | 14:59 |
| jroll | mriedem: yeah, I know we don't have to, I just assumed that was the goal, but maybe I should be patient | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | ricolin : I think it would be good to get some sign off, since I know zaneb had objections to raise with some of the items on the list | 14:59 |
| fungi | once the stable/queens fix merges the vmt will consider the ossa bugtask resolved | 14:59 |
| zaneb | ricolin: +1 | 15:00 |
| fungi | since, as mentioned, pike and ocata are "best effort" | 15:00 |
| ricolin | dhellmann, so how this usually done? singing name after another or we need to use tools? | 15:00 |
| mnaser | maybe we can use openstack bot to do a poll | 15:00 |
| mnaser | ive never used it for that though. | 15:00 |
| gmann | yeah that's better | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | I don't think we need to be very formal about it. Maybe make sure https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/u-name-poll-email is up to date and then ask people to sign off? | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | or use the bot, that would work, too | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | assuming folks are still around -- I'm about to go offline for ~1 hr | 15:01 |
| fungi | i am half around | 15:01 |
| fungi | (and half in the security sig meeting) | 15:01 |
| ricolin | I think we can do it on etherpad so other TCs will have time to go through | 15:01 |
| ricolin | sounds good to all? | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | wfm | 15:02 |
| fungi | so based on earlier discussion in here, was "university" getting re-added, or still intentionally omitted? | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | I intentionally dropped it but will not argue if others want to add it back | 15:02 |
| ricolin | fungi, good question | 15:02 |
| dhellmann | as zaneb points out, I expect the fewer english words we include the more of a chance we have of ensuring one of the chinese locations is selected | 15:03 |
| mriedem | jroll: things aren't going to merge in ocata until pike is merged, and pike won't merge until queens, etc | 15:03 |
| mugsie | personally, I would drop university. I know it has a meaning, but it is a little too generic, and has previous uses in the communiy | 15:03 |
| ricolin | the trademark thing is tricky... | 15:03 |
| gmann | i agree on zaneb point. | 15:03 |
| fungi | i think the idea was to celebrate the diversity of universities in shanghai, so at least it's more shanghai-oriented than names of rivers in mongolia | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | that's fair | 15:04 |
| zaneb | I would drop university mainly because I think the foundation marketing folks will veto it anyway | 15:04 |
| * dhellmann wanders off | 15:04 | |
| jroll | mriedem: yep, I understand, I didn't dig enough before firing that comment | 15:04 |
| jroll | sorry about that | 15:05 |
| fungi | note that the poll is a ranked list, so if university wins and still gets stricken from the usable names, it doesn't impact the consensus on the next items in the poll after it | 15:05 |
| ricolin | since there are argument, I will not put it in etherpad for inner TC voting | 15:05 |
| mnaser | is there any reason we're narrowing down the list specifically ? | 15:05 |
| mriedem | jroll: heh not a problem, i know you love the ocata | 15:06 |
| fungi | if we're striking it because we think osf marketing will strike it, then that would only be to save them the trouble (and i don't know that it's a massive burden for them) | 15:06 |
| ricolin | fungi, so when will the marketing guys join to see if that list is valid? | 15:07 |
| zaneb | ricolin: after voting | 15:07 |
| mnaser | i belive this happens post voting | 15:07 |
| mnaser | so if option #1 is unacceptable, we pick option #2 | 15:07 |
| mnaser | as fungi explained, the voting gives us ordered results | 15:07 |
| ricolin | zaneb, mnaser got it, not like a idea model, but I respect that | 15:08 |
| zaneb | so I think Urban and University have some support. do any of the other non-conforming options have any support? | 15:08 |
| mnaser | so because of that, i dont know if i personally want to veto things off before they're voted on, i'm just not personally comfortable with that anyways | 15:09 |
| mnaser | but i won't stop anyone else who want sto | 15:09 |
| ttx | Unicorn is a good testament to how painful this name selection was... but people may then vote for it for the wrong reasons | 15:10 |
| ttx | We already have better exceptions anyway | 15:11 |
| ricolin | IMO any option with at least a TC's support will be good to be in the list if no other strong against anyway | 15:11 |
| ricolin | but that just me | 15:12 |
| ttx | The real risk with ANY englisg word addition is that our overwhelming majority of English-speaking voters will make it win | 15:12 |
| evrardjp | ttx: not sure about that | 15:13 |
| mnaser | which is why i want to abstain from this and keep it to 'places in china' *shrug* | 15:13 |
| ttx | Not sure how much of a slap in the face that would be for the Chinese community | 15:13 |
| fungi | ocata made the cut | 15:13 |
| fungi | as did mitaka | 15:13 |
| zaneb | ricolin: it sounds like we should conduct informal polls of TC members on support for Urban and University and ditch the reset of the english words | 15:13 |
| evrardjp | but unicorn though | 15:13 |
| evrardjp | who doesn't love unicorns | 15:13 |
| evrardjp | that's a risk | 15:13 |
| ttx | fungi: Was there english options on those votes ? | 15:13 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: agreed with you | 15:13 |
| fungi | ttx: yeah, that's the bit i don't recall | 15:13 |
| ttx | Not for O | 15:14 |
| ttx | (like we did not include Ocean | 15:14 |
| ttx | ) | 15:14 |
| ttx | and not for M either | 15:14 |
| ttx | (we did not include Machine) | 15:15 |
| fungi | just keep in mind that the non-english names we're talking about on that list are also not what most chinese folks would probably consider chinese words either | 15:15 |
| ttx | (nor Metropolis) | 15:15 |
| fungi | so we're not talking about omitting non-chinese words, we're talking about specifically omitting english words | 15:15 |
| zaneb | or MURICA which was apparently one proposal(!) https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Release_Naming/M_Proposals#Misc | 15:15 |
| ttx | fungi: yes and that is the only reason why I would not object | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | Sorry to be a buzkill (if that's the proper term), but do we really need to discuss this? Did I really misunderstood and those proposed names are not right? | 15:15 |
| ttx | "set the patriotism dial to 11" | 15:15 |
| evrardjp | ttx: :) | 15:16 |
| zaneb | well if we don't discuss it then none of those names should be on the list because they don't meet the criteria | 15:16 |
| ricolin | I guess we can just do in this way, TCs go +/-1on options in the list, which ever overcome the vote, wins? | 15:16 |
| zaneb | we can choose to add some names that don't otherwise meet the criteria if we agree they should be on the list anyway | 15:17 |
| ttx | Adding symbolic names should stay an exception rather than a rule | 15:17 |
| ttx | otherwise let's just say we pick any word | 15:17 |
| zaneb | ttx++ | 15:18 |
| ttx | I'm not sure Urban or University are ... compelling enough to justify the exception | 15:18 |
| ricolin | ttx indeed | 15:18 |
| * zaneb is -1 on Urban, -0 on University | 15:18 | |
| ttx | especially in a case where the exception is very likely to win the election as the only english name on the menu | 15:19 |
| ricolin | this run back to the very first question, should we even allow exception for U at all? | 15:19 |
| ttx | My preference would be for no exception. If we do make an exception, then add Urban AND University | 15:20 |
| ricolin | I think Tim from ML also propose no exception too this time | 15:20 |
| evrardjp | ttx: agreed | 15:20 |
| ttx | I'm happy to yield to majority, I feel like we've spent enough energy on this | 15:21 |
| gmann | so what all names are gone in case of no exception ? Urban and University only | 15:21 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm good with only place names | 15:21 |
| ricolin | I will too vote for no exception | 15:21 |
| ttx | Maybe set up a Condorcet TC vote between none, Urban, University, Urban+University | 15:21 |
| ttx | I can do tat very quickly | 15:21 |
| zaneb | a little weird but that works | 15:22 |
| gmann | or just say 'no exception' or 'exception' | 15:22 |
| fungi | there was sort of a case made that university describes a place as there is a "university of shanghai for science and technology" but as zaneb points out, university is a general class of place so would be akin to words like "street" or "plaza" | 15:23 |
| ricolin | ttx +1 | 15:23 |
| zaneb | gmann: that doesn't help us choose which exceptions if 'exception' wins | 15:23 |
| gmann | :) it would not i think | 15:23 |
| ttx | almost there | 15:23 |
| smcginnis | Non-TC voice, but I would say we have enough good "native" names that we should just go with those and not have the exceptions. I do like Urban and University, but it seems better to me to try to go with the actual place names. | 15:23 |
| fungi | granted, those place names are all very far from shanghai | 15:25 |
| ttx | alright ready to fire | 15:26 |
| fungi | it's like if we had the summit in new york and named the release for a place in california | 15:26 |
| ttx | y'all have email | 15:26 |
| ricolin | ttx thx | 15:27 |
| * mugsie goes to google translate :P | 15:27 | |
| ttx | haha | 15:27 |
| ttx | ah yes, I forgot to set my LANG=C | 15:27 |
| ttx | sorry about that | 15:27 |
| mugsie | my less than high school french is coming in handy | 15:27 |
| ricolin | lol | 15:28 |
| fungi | i can still find the url in it. good enough for me even if high school was decades ago | 15:28 |
| ttx | yes click on the vote.pl URL | 15:28 |
| ttx | Perl is alive | 15:28 |
| ricolin | I'm done:) | 15:29 |
| ttx | mnaser: let me know when you think it's appropriate to close the vote | 15:29 |
| fungi | i have voted | 15:29 |
| * zaneb too | 15:29 | |
| mnaser | ttx: i dunno how condorcet works -- do you see the results? | 15:29 |
| fungi | when the poll is closed there will be a public url for the results | 15:30 |
| ttx | mnaser: I close it, and then you have the results accessible at that results.pl url | 15:30 |
| mnaser | how much are we in a rush to get this answer? | 15:30 |
| mnaser | i guess from now till tomorrow should be enough (granted we have enough people vote that it gives us an answer) | 15:30 |
| ttx | mnaser: it's blocking the actual poll | 15:30 |
| mnaser | but the actual pol is not scheduled till the 12 | 15:30 |
| mnaser | hm | 15:30 |
| mnaser | i think it was the 12 anyways | 15:30 |
| ttx | yes, let's have it run for the day | 15:31 |
| ricolin | once this is done, the list will be out | 15:31 |
| mnaser | tc-members: you should have an email from ttx in french for a vote regarding ^ | 15:31 |
| zaneb | lol | 15:31 |
| gmann | i did not get yet | 15:31 |
| ttx | sent to the address in https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | 15:31 |
| mnaser | from:civs@cs.cornell.edu is what i got | 15:31 |
| ricolin | search mail 'Poll: U naming exceptions | 15:32 |
| ricolin | ' | 15:32 |
| fungi | it might be greylisted for some senders, so i would give at least 15-30 minutes for it to arrive | 15:32 |
| ttx | 6 votes in | 15:32 |
| zaneb | gmann: maybe your spam filter is deleting messages in French ;) | 15:32 |
| fungi | er, for some recipients i mean | 15:32 |
| mnaser | ttx: maybe see what it looks like for you tomorrow in your AM | 15:33 |
| gmann | no :) at least it should in spam but no | 15:33 |
| mnaser | id say if we're at 8-10 then thats good enough | 15:33 |
| ttx | yes let's see how it looks like tomorrow when you get up | 15:33 |
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| ricolin | just strike out the rest names which not meet criteria from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/u-name-poll-email | 15:36 |
| ricolin | will see if urban and University make it or not | 15:37 |
| jroll | oh no I have to make decisions D: | 15:41 |
| fungi | you don't *have* to make any decision at all | 15:41 |
| jroll | I would feel bad not making one, heh | 15:42 |
| fungi | you can rank them all the same, or just not cast your ballot (which is roughly equivalent) | 15:42 |
| fungi | see, you've already decided not to feel bad | 15:42 |
| gmann | got now, done | 15:42 |
| fungi | yeah, it was probably greylisted as i suspected | 15:43 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:43 |
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| ttx | 9 answers to the poll so far | 19:00 |
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