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| TheJulia | ttx: that clearly takes priority | 02:29 |
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| evrardjp | o/ | 08:04 |
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| evrardjp | let us know how it goes ttx :) | 09:01 |
| * cdent waves | 09:02 | |
| gmann | o/ | 09:09 |
| gmann | office hour ? | 09:09 |
| evrardjp | it is | 09:09 |
| cdent | this is the right time for it but this one has been pretty slow of late | 09:09 |
| gmann | k | 09:10 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 09:10 |
| evrardjp | I am surprised, the complaint's office should be busy during french business hours #funny_unoffending_joke_for_belgians | 09:11 |
| gmann | i was reading log in morning specially upgrade checker goal | 09:12 |
| evrardjp | gmann: and? | 09:12 |
| gmann | lbragstad: cdent evrardjp seems like we need more help on scaffolding CLI itself for upgrade check and we do not prefer to script that right ? | 09:12 |
| gmann | i am thinking to call the volunteer team to help matt on this and that team or project team can work to fill the actual upgrade checks | 09:13 |
| gmann | i have 2 member from my employer who can help this (one is congress developer and one started in cinder recently ) | 09:14 |
| gmann | and like that if we collect more name then, it is possible to have the things up by Nov first week. | 09:14 |
| cdent | I was out last week so am not up to date on the issues. What the summary of the problem? | 09:15 |
| evrardjp | I am not sure all companies will have the same agility to "assign" people on community goals in a short timeframe. But that's another conversation. | 09:16 |
| gmann | it is question more than problem - how fast we would be able to finish this goal. and how many projects started this (i saw only 4-5) | 09:16 |
| gmann | evrardjp: they will from existing contributors only, like "hey, i have few bandwidth in this cycle and i can help on this goal under goal champion plan " | 09:17 |
| gmann | it just need we open up the formal volunteers need over ML etc | 09:18 |
| evrardjp | gmann: I believe it's better to promote the community goals as something to assign people to, at least in my company, instead of relying on extra time from individuals. But that's a personal opinion/experience, and I am working towards that. | 09:19 |
| gmann | true, we have assignee for goal, and extra time from others (with dedicated volunteer team) hell it to finish fast | 09:20 |
| gmann | s/hell/help | 09:21 |
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| gmann | another things i wanted to ask about start of health tracker - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker | 09:27 |
| gmann | are we going to start the tracking projects once we have all team filled with TC liaison ? and go ahead from mnaser dhellmann ? | 09:28 |
| gmann | or we can start anytime for projects already assigned | 09:28 |
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| cdent | It shoul be fine to start whenever you feel like it. As long as you date the information you put in the wiki. | 09:29 |
| gmann | ok | 09:30 |
| cdent | The process is supposed to be more of an ongoing conversation of "how's it going" rather than formal checkins | 09:44 |
| gmann | yeah. | 09:45 |
| evrardjp | cdent: I thought we were planning to discuss what to track together. | 09:51 |
| evrardjp | I thought that was the outcome of the PTG -- we needed a more exhaustive and shared list, but I might have misunderstood | 09:52 |
| gmann | you mean to reiterate this - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker#Health_check_list | 09:52 |
| evrardjp | I meant having a list of questions for element 4 | 09:53 |
| cdent | evrardjp: I'm not saying we don't want that, but that we don't want a strict time structure of engagement with each project. The stuff we watch out for should be similar and known up front, but how we gather the info is dependent on how each project operates | 09:53 |
| evrardjp | not how, what :) | 09:54 |
| evrardjp | my point in an email long ago was that some of the what, if we all agree with those items, can be automated, and therefore we can focus on the less automation-more human part | 09:55 |
| cdent | I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. My comment to gmann was simply "don't worry about time" | 09:55 |
| evrardjp | cdent: can't tell either :) | 09:55 |
| cdent | :) | 09:55 |
| evrardjp | let's say we agree then | 09:56 |
| lbragstad | i have a basic set of questions - but this is also my first rodeo | 09:57 |
| evrardjp | lbragstad: could you share those? Right now I was taking the output of current status update and a few of my ideas to draft an email, but I guess I'd love working with you on said questions | 09:59 |
| evrardjp | I don't want to have a similar thing as "marketing" fatigue on people -- too many questions and a few will get ignored. | 09:59 |
| lbragstad | how would you rate $PROJECT's health? are there things you're concerned about within $PROJECT? are there things you're concerned about within OpenStack? Is there anything the TC can help you with? | 10:00 |
| lbragstad | ^ those are basically what i have, but i'm also massaging them to be specific to certain projects | 10:01 |
| cdent | I think I approach these things differently. I think the things we need to be discovering are the stuff that the members of the project are not aware of themselves and may be missing as a result of being within the project and not having an external project. I think it is critical to speak not just with the PTL and core or common members of the teams, but the irregular contributors. | 10:01 |
| persia | I suggest that the goal should be to build a useful relationship between the project and the person doing the checkin, rather than to answer N questions, or similar. To my mind, part of the measure of a project's health is "does this project feel that they have good connection to TC?". | 10:01 |
| lbragstad | those are both good points | 10:02 |
| gmann | cdent: +1 to check not just PTL but core and other contributor too. this help to understand the complete situation | 10:02 |
| cdent | the agenda there is to make sure that people who don't already have a strong voice are heard well | 10:03 |
| evrardjp | persia: that's why I think have the right questions are hard -- establishing a relationship vs inquiry | 10:03 |
| persia | evrardjp: Makes sense. I guess I think "having the right questions" is an impossible task, so going with "some questions that might be useful" becomes a useful target. | 10:05 |
| gmann | and even i would like to ask them -do they know about TC heath tracker & its objective and how TC can/will help them. to give them confidence that this exercise is not just formalities but we really want to help in any ways. | 10:06 |
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| dims | gmann : +1 | 12:23 |
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| TheJulia | Good morning | 13:00 |
| smcginnis | Morning TheJulia | 13:02 |
| * TheJulia sips coffee | 13:02 | |
| smcginnis | So tosky and I were just chatting about the py37 situation, and I'm not sure I have the latest consensus on that. Should we be replacing 35 with 37, or is the question still up in the air? | 13:04 |
| TheJulia | lbragstad: I last time we did healthchecks, I went with "how do you perceive your project's health?" Not asking for them to rate, but it kind of got them into a situation where they were writing about their perceptions instead of saying bad/good/great (for the most part) | 13:04 |
| lbragstad | that makes sense | 13:04 |
| lbragstad | i've adjusted my wording a little bit | 13:04 |
| lbragstad | hopefully away from implying a rating | 13:05 |
| TheJulia | I didn't go and poll some cores as well, but I did look through meeting logs to see if there was visible contention, looked at statistics, etc. | 13:05 |
| smcginnis | tosky: I think we are going to be switching everyone to Bionic, so in that case based on fungi's comments, those patches do make sense. | 13:06 |
| tosky | so both py37++ and py35-- | 13:07 |
| fungi | the addition of py37 jobs is unrelated to the removal of py35 jobs (except insofar as the platform to which we're moving will enable testing with py37 easily in addition to py36) | 13:08 |
| cdent | From a capacity standpoint, I would think that adding any jobs has to be related to removing some? | 13:08 |
| smcginnis | fungi: I think the reason they are tied together in a lot of conversations right now is there is the set of patches proposed out there that does both. | 13:08 |
| fungi | we need to remove py35 jobs unless we want to continue testing stein (and beyond?) on ubuntu 16.04 lts | 13:09 |
| smcginnis | And cdent ++ | 13:09 |
| fungi | cdent: adding py36 jobs is related to removing py35 jobs, yes | 13:09 |
| fungi | adding py37 jobs is net new | 13:09 |
| smcginnis | fungi: This is what is being broadly proposed out there - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/610751/1/.zuul.yaml | 13:10 |
| fungi | yeah, i can see how that would be confusing | 13:10 |
| tosky | or better: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:py37-job | 13:10 |
| fungi | basically there are three things in play at the same time. the python3-first goal, following ubuntu lts releases upgrading our testing from xenial to bionic, and the availability of an optional python3.7 package on bionic we can use to get additional coverage on newer-than-default python3 if we want | 13:11 |
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| smcginnis | So I think we need to be able to give projects some specific guideance on the whole thing. | 13:14 |
| fungi | i agree | 13:14 |
| smcginnis | I _think_ we want to end up with just 36 and 37, but I also think there are some differing opinions on that. | 13:14 |
| fungi | i think dropping python3.5 in stein is appropriate. we dropped 3.4 when we transitioned from trusty to xenial | 13:14 |
| smcginnis | In the meantime, folks like tosky are left wondering what they are supposed to do, which isn't good IMO. | 13:14 |
| fungi | i also think it's perfectly fine to push back on the 3.7 additions as they're less urgent | 13:15 |
| fungi | priority should be on switching from 3.5 (default and only python3 packaged in xenial) to 3.6 (default and lowest python3 packaged in bionic) | 13:16 |
| tosky | I think that py36 jobs were fully added in the previous set of (official) patches | 13:16 |
| tosky | more or less when job definitions were moved in-tree | 13:16 |
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| tosky | so should I push back the changes, asking the author to just remove py35, or could this be done in a more centralized way? | 13:17 |
| smcginnis | Yep, we should be good with py36 with Doug's set of patches. | 13:17 |
| fungi | yes, part of the plan, i thought, was to first add the 3.6 jobs and then remove the 3.5 jobs to give projects a (brief) window to make sure 3.6 was working for them | 13:17 |
| tosky | I suspect that some of those patches have been merged already | 13:17 |
| smcginnis | tosky: I think you are right. | 13:17 |
| tosky | uh, someone must be reading, as the author just added -W to the patches | 13:18 |
| tosky | at least the sahara ones | 13:18 |
| fungi | and once projects which had been running py35 jobs had their py36 jobs voting we'd drop the py35 jobs and switch the default node type from ubuntu-xenial to ubuntu-bionic | 13:18 |
| tosky | more, to all of them | 13:19 |
| smcginnis | There's the ML thread on this, but I think someone (us or infra or ?) needs to declare a position here so we stop this confusion. | 13:19 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: what about just in the middle and we ask fungi :p | 13:19 |
| smcginnis | evrardjp: He does meet multiple criteria. ;) | 13:20 |
| evrardjp | sorry to put you on the spot! :p | 13:20 |
| evrardjp | and knows so many things | 13:20 |
| smcginnis | But in general, we've had the vague-ish statements about LTS versions and Python support, but I think a more clear declaration should be made by us. Or at least some public show of a concensus on the matter. | 13:21 |
| fungi | lbragstad: persia: the idea was to flesh out https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-health-checklist as a set of conversation starters for the health updates | 13:22 |
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| evrardjp | fungi: I'd like to understand L23 there: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-health-checklist -- as anyone can get involved to producing help on community goals, you mean just the reviewing part/update of status, right? Or do you mean someone taking an active part? It can be read in two ways, and one is more forward thinking than the other. | 13:27 |
| evrardjp | fungi: do you mind me adding elements to said etherpad? | 13:28 |
| fungi | evrardjp: of the community goals which affect that team's deliverables, have they completed ones for last cycle? are they working on the ones for this cycle? | 13:29 |
| evrardjp | I am thinking about the rate of changes in core contributors (losing cores or gaining them), also asking if they have a process of onboarding too | 13:29 |
| fungi | evrardjp: adding stuff is great, thanks! | 13:29 |
| evrardjp | fungi: so two elements there: For new projects, if they met the requirement of reaching the previous goals into the one year timeframe, and for non-new projects, if they are keeing up. | 13:30 |
| fungi | i don't understand. can you rephrase? what's the one-year timeframe for? | 13:32 |
| evrardjp | I thought this was a mandatory requirement | 13:33 |
| evrardjp | just a second | 13:33 |
| evrardjp | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html | 13:33 |
| evrardjp | "Any existing goals that are not met should be prioritized and completed within the first year of a team joining." | 13:33 |
| fungi | ahh, i'd forgotten about that. thanks! | 13:33 |
| evrardjp | I will write this in the etherpad for ppl to remember | 13:34 |
| fungi | so yes, for projects less than a year old i think the questions are still relevant (at least for the current cycle), but maybe just insofar as making sure they're aware of the goals process and what the current cycle goals are and how they might apply | 13:34 |
| gmann | mriedem: in case you have not read the log. i talked to 2 of my colleague (upstream developers) and they would like to help you on upgrade checker goal. | 13:37 |
| gmann | mriedem: i am thinking on side of making a volunteer team who cal closly work with goal champion t finish the code soon. | 13:38 |
| gmann | mriedem: along with those 2 i would like to ask more volunteer on ML to join if that approach looks ok to you? | 13:39 |
| mriedem | sure. what do you expect these volunteers to be doing? | 13:39 |
| gmann | start working on pending projects work or project not yet started | 13:40 |
| mriedem | ok yeah that's something we need | 13:40 |
| mriedem | some projects don't even have release notes, like zun, | 13:41 |
| mriedem | so their upgrade check is probably just going to be a placeholder/noop | 13:41 |
| mriedem | and cyborg | 13:41 |
| gmann | yeah. | 13:41 |
| mriedem | cyborg is too new to really have any upgrade impacts | 13:41 |
| gmann | even i saw few of project have no upgrade notes in current release like congress so it will be same for them | 13:42 |
| gmann | at least yet | 13:42 |
| mriedem | that or teams just aren't good about documenting their upgrade impacts | 13:43 |
| gmann | for project having upgrade content, would you like to implement the specific upgrade check also along with CLI placeholder right ? | 13:43 |
| mriedem | we don't need a placeholder if the project has a real upgrade check | 13:43 |
| mriedem | like the one i've identified for glance | 13:43 |
| gmann | i mean actual checks for upgraded items | 13:44 |
| mriedem | what i've seen a few projects doing, like keystone and cinder, is starting with a base patch that adds the framework, docs, entry point, etc, and then subsequent changes replace the placeholder/noop check with real checks | 13:44 |
| mriedem | so that pattern is probably fine for the volunteers | 13:45 |
| mriedem | other projects like designate just start with a real check | 13:45 |
| gmann | yea, that sounds good | 13:45 |
| gmann | and further you can schedule (if you feel needed) hangout or office hour with volunteer to move things fast/particular direction etc | 13:46 |
| mriedem | it's been a long time since i've had minions, i might become drunk with power | 13:48 |
| cdent | what have you been drunk with all the rest of this time? | 13:50 |
| mriedem | toilet wine | 13:50 |
| cdent | woot! | 13:50 |
| gmann | :) | 13:52 |
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| evrardjp | oh god I thought this term was only a joke but there _is_ something called toilet wine. I am learning everyday. | 14:01 |
| smcginnis | evrardjp: Important lesson - never, ever google something odd that mriedem says. It never goes well. | 14:03 |
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| evrardjp | I think I did fine. I landed on urban dictionary what can go wrong? | 14:04 |
| scas | 'toilet wine' is also a phrase i use outside the urban dictionary definition for when my cats decide to have a tasting party of some vintage toilet water | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | hahaha | 14:06 |
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| clarkb | smcginnis: fwiw the TC has made what I thought were clear determinations in the past that should still apply today. The one that pplies here is OpenStack the software supports latest Ubuntu LTS and CentOS/RHEL. WIth that declaration openstack should continue to support python 2.7 and add python 3.6. Python3.5 is not on either of those two platforms and can be dropped | 14:55 |
| clarkb | Adding python 3.7 is completely orthogonal to that and the idea there is to catch the python 3.7 problems early before our statement of support requires we run on 3.7 and its a lot of effort to update | 14:56 |
| smcginnis | OK, I thought some were asserting that 3.7 was something that would be standard during this cycle. | 14:59 |
| smcginnis | If that's the case, I think we should clearly declare 2.7 and 3.6 as the must support versions and anything else is optional. | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Which means the proposed update to the goal should not say either/or but just add something saying if teams would like to add 3.7 they are free to do so but it is out of scope for stien. | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | *stein | 15:00 |
| fungi | agreed | 15:11 |
| dims | sounds fair smcginnis | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | It would probably also be good to recommend them as experimental jobs so we are not using extra gate resources for something that isn't required yet. | 15:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Make Python 3 testing requirement less specific https://review.openstack.org/611010 | 15:23 |
| fungi | there's a stab at reducing the confusion | 15:23 |
| smcginnis | I was thinking of proposing a standard item to each cycle goal that explicitly states what our targeted runtimes are. Would that make sense? If so, then I think the pti should point to that. | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | Explicit over implicit. | 15:25 |
| fungi | sure, though i don't want to be updating the (python) pti itself every time our primary platforms release new versions. if we want to put that in its own document that may be an okay middle-ground | 15:26 |
| fungi | just be aware we're not testing, e.g., "python 3.6" but rather "the python 3 provided with ubuntu 18.04 lts which they call 3.6.something but also has some custom patches" | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Yeah, I was thinking the PTI could then just point to the governance cycle documentation and stay out of saying any versions there. | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Are we testing any other platforms as official in gate, or are things like RHEL left up to Red Hat's own testing? | 15:28 |
| fungi | we're testing latest centos on the assumption that it's close to the same as latest rhel | 15:28 |
| fungi | though we run fewer jobs on it than ubuntu lts, i'm not sure what the exact breakdown is | 15:29 |
| clarkb | fungi: actually | 15:29 |
| fungi | we could consider switching our python2.7 jobs to centos | 15:30 |
| clarkb | if you consider tripleo to be centos testing its really close to even right now I think | 15:30 |
| fungi | fair, tripleo does consume more nodes than any other project | 15:30 |
| fungi | and is exclusively on centos | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | I want to make sure I'm clear on wording if I document this. Should it state the current Ubuntu LTS and RHEL? Or is there such thing as a CentOS LTS release? | 15:30 |
| clarkb | http://grafana.openstack.org/d/rZtIH5Imz/nodepool?orgId=1 the in use nodes graph | 15:30 |
| fungi | smcginnis: see the note in the linux distros section of the pti | 15:30 |
| fungi | which states the relative choice of centos as a stand-in for rhel | 15:31 |
| clarkb | its like sin and cos graphed for ubuntu vs centos. We do a bunch of one then a bunch of the other (has to do with how zuul schedules work It hink) | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | OK, so Ubuntu latest LTS and CentOS latest stable. | 15:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Explicitly declare Stein supported runtimes https://review.openstack.org/611080 | 16:36 |
| smcginnis | An attempt at clarity. ^ | 16:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Fix format errors in PTI docs https://review.openstack.org/611098 | 17:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Update sphinx extension logging https://review.openstack.org/611132 | 19:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Fix format errors in PTI docs https://review.openstack.org/611098 | 21:35 |
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| openstackgerrit | Gage Hugo proposed openstack/governance master: Retire project Anchor - Step 5 https://review.openstack.org/611187 | 22:08 |
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