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| dims | o/ | 13:02 |
|---|---|---|
| smcginnis | Morning dims | 13:05 |
| dims | hey smcginnis | 13:05 |
| smcginnis | Anyone know if the Board/TC/UC dinner is officially Saturday evening? I haven't seen anything announced. | 13:09 |
| cdent | I hope not, cuz I won't be there then, and want free dinner :) | 13:10 |
| smcginnis | Me too. | 13:11 |
| smcginnis | :) | 13:11 |
| cdent | if it turns out it is then, we can take each other to dinner later and then it will seem free | 13:13 |
| smcginnis | Deal | 13:13 |
| cdent | \o/ | 13:14 |
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| mugsie | I may be in the city by then but not sure about going from a 9 hr flight straight to dinner :) | 13:20 |
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| * mnaser will be around on saturday as well | 13:42 | |
| zaneb | I'm arriving about 8pm, so would also miss it if it's on Saturday | 13:42 |
| mnaser | dhellmann: small heads up, the dependent change merged -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/565843/ :) | 13:42 |
| * mnaser is arriving bright and early at 9am | 13:43 | |
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| pabelanger | mnaser: which day? | 14:07 |
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| zaneb | pabelanger: I'm inferring he meant Saturday | 14:21 |
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| mnaser | pabelanger, zaneb: correct, im coming in on saturday :) | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | Officing. | 15:00 |
| ttx | Indeed | 15:01 |
| * dhellmann will be late | 15:01 | |
| ttx | tc-members assemble | 15:01 |
| * ttx will leave early | 15:01 | |
| * cdent transforms | 15:01 | |
| zaneb | o/ | 15:01 |
| mnaser | o/ | 15:01 |
| * dims pays attention | 15:01 | |
| * ttx has entered the summit prep vortex and might not be very useful again before it's June | 15:02 | |
| * jroll pokes his head in | 15:02 | |
| fungi | i spent the better part of a day just figuring out what my schedule will look like that week (and i'm not quite done yet either) | 15:02 |
| * mnaser has to get around doing that | 15:03 | |
| * smcginnis does too | 15:03 | |
| mnaser | i'm excited about the discussion about what is an openstack official project. i do feel a bit for adrian | 15:03 |
| mnaser | he has been *very* patient to pursue this for close to 2 months | 15:03 |
| zaneb | during the election campaign a number of TC members not up for re-election said that they would provide answers to dhellmann's mailing list questions after the election | 15:04 |
| zaneb | I still think that would be very interesting, and it is now after the election :) | 15:04 |
| cdent | zaneb++ | 15:04 |
| mnaser | zaneb: perhaps we can reply to that ML post just to put their eyes on it again | 15:04 |
| dtroyer_zz | zaneb: maybe after May 15 I'll have time to do that… or over $COLD_BEVERAGE in YVR | 15:04 |
| ttx | For whoever is interested, I did write up notes from the K8s/OpenStack community discussions in Copenhagen. | 15:05 |
| cdent | mnaser: if you've got thoughts on that that you can get down on the etherpad before the session, that would be awesome | 15:05 |
| ttx | See bottom of https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/CPH-k8s-openstack-story-trading | 15:05 |
| cdent | (where that is official project session) | 15:05 |
| mugsie | o/ | 15:05 |
| mnaser | cdent: i'll collect some, because i think that ties into the whole "getting more new contributions in openstack" theme.. | 15:05 |
| dtroyer_zz | ttx: thanks, I read them and that sort of thing has suddenly become even more interesting to me than a few months ago :) | 15:05 |
| cdent | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-forum-TC-project-boundaries | 15:05 |
| ttx | A few things that were interesting that I may not have mentioned yet: | 15:06 |
| ttx | Their use of "shadow roles" was quite successful in fostering healthy leadership rotation | 15:06 |
| mnaser | making someone go through 2 months just to become an official project is a bit rough, and having very clear rules about it makes it more easy to get a "yes" or "no" right away | 15:07 |
| ttx | They have very similar discussions around stable maint and LTS. They don't have a definitive stance on LTS yet but so far the consensus seems to be that they should have: | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | I also like how some of the teams have very clearly defined roles: https://github.com/kubernetes/sig-release/blob/master/releases/release-1.11/release_team.md | 15:07 |
| ttx | support for n-2 critical bugfixes / security fixes (which means at most 8.9 month support) | 15:07 |
| ttx | and no LTS / extended maint, leave that to distros | 15:07 |
| ttx | They don't have that much of a vocal/engaged DIY op community like we have | 15:08 |
| ttx | also they still have dozens of startups on the business of productizing K8s, so ... | 15:08 |
| mnaser | i think party that's still because there's still 60 ways of deploying k8s | 15:09 |
| zaneb | mnaser: clearly you don't remember the Zaqar debacle ;) | 15:09 |
| mnaser | s/party/partly/ | 15:09 |
| ttx | still their stance is that it's not the open source project's job to do stable maint. | 15:09 |
| ttx | they do minimal security maint | 15:09 |
| mugsie | ttx: I think as more established enterprise vendors get into LTS they will have more push back | 15:10 |
| ttx | when I said that it's sad to duplicate stable maint work across distros... they said that distraos are happy top duplicate if that's the key to their monetization | 15:10 |
| ttx | s/top/to | 15:10 |
| mugsie | I know when I was on a k8s product team, we were just spending sll our time upgrading between versions, and were not as worried about LTS at that point | 15:11 |
| ttx | so... food for thoughts | 15:11 |
| dims | some latest discussion there about releases etc - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/kubernetes-sig-architecture/NLhJ7wAliA0/t7gJ9RvbBgAJ | 15:11 |
| cdent | "still their stance is that it's not the open source project's job to do stable maint." I mostly agree with that | 15:11 |
| mnaser | interesting concept, though as someone who works 100% open source, i appreciate the lack of duplication and the fact that i can deploy stable/queens without worrying about any problems (or i can backport things as i need to) | 15:11 |
| ttx | They are aware of the limitations of a number of things they do (video meetings, GitHub) but it's likely too late to evolve that | 15:11 |
| mugsie | I do like the SIG Co-Lead ideas, I haven't seen much on shadow roles - is that the co-lead idea, or a separate thing? | 15:12 |
| mnaser | last thing i want to do is maintain our own branches with a bunch of our own fixes. i feel that'll increase the barrier to deployment for those who are looking to deploy without relying on $vendor | 15:12 |
| ttx | They said video meetings are a great way to foster trust / good feels, something we use in-person events to foster... so it's all a trade-off | 15:13 |
| cdent | the in-person events are often too far apart for the good feels.... | 15:13 |
| zaneb | ttx: wearing my distro hat, it annoys me that much of the work I do on long-term maintenance doesn't have a venue where I can share it with the rest of the community. ymmv | 15:13 |
| ttx | zaneb: yeah, I'm not sure I agree 100% with their stance on that | 15:14 |
| fungi | as a proponent of non-commercial, volunteer-maintained distros i find the idea of relying on monetization and productization within distros a bit fanciful | 15:14 |
| ttx | Otherwise my general feeling was that OpenStack is no longer the counterexample joke in discussions, but more taken as an example in things they also encounter | 15:16 |
| mugsie | they also have a different usage pattern - a lot of k8s users will use GKE / Azure / Whatever AWS's thing is, which lifts a lot of the LTS burden, as they are kept up to date | 15:16 |
| ttx | sncwould you agree ? | 15:16 |
| ttx | smcginnis: would you agree ? | 15:16 |
| fungi | you could just as well argue that if enough users want to use a stabilized branch/fork of the software then some interested users for those distros may step up to carry and support it... but it certainly reduces the likelihood | 15:16 |
| cdent | For me it is more a matter of being able to pick and choose and focus on what matters in a sane fashion. Being all things to all people is hard for any community that wants to consider itself a _single_ community to do. | 15:16 |
| ttx | Less "OpenStack done right" and more "you've been there before" | 15:17 |
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| zaneb | the shoe is on the other foot now :D | 15:17 |
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| ttx | Also quite a lot of "you did that right in openStack" which is really new :) | 15:18 |
| dims | +1 | 15:18 |
| mugsie | that is a good change - I have seen more positive messages on social media recently indicating a change as well. More "Colaborate" and less "Compete" | 15:19 |
| ttx | Overall a lot less snark as they realize that most of our woes come with the open collaboration territory | 15:19 |
| fungi | looking at the state of the kubernetes-master package in debian, i expect the odds of it even making it into the next stable release in a year-ish are pretty low | 15:19 |
| dims | another interesting read is the new charter for each SIG. each SIG kinda lays down how they will work. here's the one from SIG Node - https://github.com/kubernetes/community/pull/2065/commits/371c36569af2ba29482aa2936d65398bacbead4b | 15:19 |
| mugsie | fungi: there is no way they could add it, unless someone stepped up to own it for X years though, right? | 15:19 |
| fungi | mugsie: well, it's not that formal. but to a great extent that's the expectation anyway | 15:20 |
| mugsie | (I seem to remember having to step up and agree to own designate bugs for x period before) | 15:20 |
| fungi | if you're not an official debian developer then your sponsor may have asked you that... i'd be surprised if the ftpmaster asked a dd that though | 15:21 |
| dims | fungi : they had an interesting answer for lack of new etcd in distros ... just run etcd in containers | 15:21 |
| fungi | er, the ftpmaster team | 15:21 |
| fungi | dims: right. containers don't need an operating system. they're magic! ;) | 15:21 |
| dims | :) | 15:21 |
| mugsie | dims: the default way to deploy kubernetes is all in containers now, isnt it? | 15:22 |
| dims | mugsie : some do, some dont. | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Sorry, had to step away for a minute. Yeah, I thought the feels towards OpenStack were much more positive than they were in Austin. | 15:23 |
| ttx | shameless plug: I posted a piece on what I mean by "open infrastructure" at https://opensource.com/article/18/5/open-infrastructure -- I would very much like to know if that resonates with y'all or if you think completely differently on that topic | 15:24 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Read it - very nicely written. | 15:24 |
| ttx | TL;DR: "voices are being raised against the inevitability of a future in which all of the world's infrastructure needs will be met by "The Big 3."" | 15:24 |
| ttx | since open infra is a bit of a buzzword I thought defining what I personally meant by it could help | 15:25 |
| dims | "inherent mistrust of American suppliers" ... case in point ZTE | 15:25 |
| fungi | if i put my outside skeptic hat on, it seems like an openstack sales pitch a tiny bit... enough that it might turn off some readers, maybe? but if the intended audience isn't technically-inclined skeptics then i think it's spot on | 15:25 |
| ttx | the piece was originally written for a French audience, hence the anti-American subline :) | 15:26 |
| dims | aha :) | 15:26 |
| fungi | like, i can see someone reading into the several mentions/recommendations of openstack along with your bio of being involved in openstack | 15:26 |
| ttx | fungi: I did not translate it myself, and they added a bit of OpenStack promotion bits yes | 15:26 |
| fungi | ahh | 15:26 |
| ttx | saved me time so I did not complain too much | 15:27 |
| fungi | heh, efficient! | 15:27 |
| * dims back in a bit | 15:27 | |
| ttx | Not bad translation too | 15:27 |
| ttx | Like the Summit plug at the end was not in the original column :) | 15:28 |
| mugsie | I think the plugging is fine, it is not unexpected if someone works on a tech in an area, they will promote that tech when writing. | 15:28 |
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| ttx | (original ended with a Gibson quote) | 15:28 |
| fungi | sure, though it does cause it to come across as inherently biased | 15:28 |
| fungi | i'd have probably appreciated the gibson quote more, personally ;) | 15:29 |
| ttx | Well, it's a well-known quote for a US audience, but I figured the French could benefit from it | 15:29 |
| fungi | that said, i don't see promoting openstack as negative, but i'm almost certainly also biased ;) | 15:30 |
| ttx | ok jumping to next call | 15:32 |
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| smcginnis | Oh shoot, forgot to ask about the dinner. :) | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | ttx: If you're still kind of around - did you say Board/TC/UC dinner plans had been made? | 15:34 |
| fungi | last i heard, alan decided against doing anything formal but that doesn't prevent something informally-organized | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | Oh, OK. | 15:35 |
| ttx | I saw Alan saying somewhere that we would join the diversity Happy hour / dinner | 15:35 |
| ttx | on Sunday evening | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | RSVP required for that. So should we all RSVP? | 15:35 |
| ttx | https://www.openstack.org/summit/vancouver-2018/summit-schedule/events/21791/weareopenstack-diversity-happy-hour-rsvp-required | 15:35 |
| ttx | I can ask | 15:35 |
| fungi | that seems a much better way of promoting inclusiveness in the community than having what might be construed as an expensive and exclusive leadership dinner | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | True | 15:36 |
| mugsie | It is no core party though | 15:36 |
| * mugsie ducks | 15:36 | |
| fungi | i rsvp'd for that back when spotz first mentioned it on the ml (i forget which one... might have been foundation@?) | 15:36 |
| smcginnis | Problem is it doesn't seem I can bring my spouse along since you need to register. | 15:37 |
| cdent | smcginnis: yeah, same problem | 15:39 |
| cdent | which is why I'll have to take you to donner | 15:40 |
| cdent | and dinner too | 15:40 |
| fungi | i like donner better | 15:40 |
| smcginnis | And my wife can buy your wife dinner. Still a good plan. ;) | 15:40 |
| fungi | we could throw a donner party | 15:40 |
| smcginnis | Haha, I was trying not to go there. | 15:41 |
| * fungi probably shouldn't have, but couldn't resist the temptation | 15:41 | |
| fungi | i mean, it's roughly the right part of the continent | 15:41 |
| cdent | office hours a bit slow lately | 15:50 |
| cdent | i guess after summit they might kick up again. given the level of "let's be active" in the campaigning I hope that's the case | 15:50 |
| cdent | we should be vociferously arguing all day long or something | 15:51 |
| smcginnis | I can say for my part, I am way too distracted with Summit and Forum prep than I would like to be. | 15:51 |
| * cdent nods | 15:51 | |
| cdent | I will be in that state soon enough | 15:52 |
| smcginnis | I'm travelling next week too, so I need to try to wrap up what I can this week. | 15:52 |
| cdent | you are a busy person | 15:54 |
| fungi | yeah, i predict that probably a week after summit when we've mostly recovered from the frenzy, we'll be back to our chatty selves again | 15:54 |
| ttx | smcginnis: No need to RSVP for dinner, the TC+UC+Staff+Board group is accounted for | 16:19 |
| smcginnis | ttx: OK, thanks! | 16:23 |
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| dhellmann | cdent , smcginnis : maybe contact spotz about bringing +1s? | 18:57 |
| smcginnis | Sure, I can check if that's OK. | 18:58 |
| dhellmann | zaneb , mnaser : please do ping on those threads to get other folks to bring up their answers, although the time between now and summit may not be ideal for deep thoughts | 18:58 |
| dhellmann | as far as the length of time about deciding about adjutant; I'm not sure what to do there. I hadn't even heard about the project before the application, which is just my own ignorance but it's not like I could have formed an opinion more quickly. Maybe one thing we need to be doing is outreach for new projects as they are added to project-config. | 19:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Retire kolla-kubernetes project https://review.openstack.org/565385 | 20:13 |
| cdent | dhellmann: as I may have already told you, much to my disappointment I'm not going to be vancouver until late afternoon on sunday so won't be making the meeting (important wedding event saturday). If you could pass along my apologies and scowl and squint every now and again for me, I'd appreciate it. | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | cdent : you did mention it, but thanks for reminding me | 20:19 |
| cdent | zaneb: fantastic question. I've worded that one in my head as "how do we ensure that the users we are making happy now aren't stopping other users from happening" | 20:41 |
| cdent | (or something like that) | 20:41 |
| cdent | sadly I think we're out of time/space for the board meeting | 20:41 |
| zaneb | cdent: ooh, yeah, I like that | 20:42 |
| * zaneb has been really struggling with the wording of that | 20:42 | |
| * smcginnis finally finds the question | 20:45 | |
| cdent | 42 | 20:49 |
| smcginnis | :) | 20:50 |
| smcginnis | Life, the Universe, and open source community governance | 20:51 |
| smcginnis | That actually sounds like an OK talk title | 20:52 |
| cdent | it does | 20:56 |
| dims | diablo_rojo : so ... that session you pinged about. did anyone else volunteer? | 21:33 |
| diablo_rojo | dims, cdent did but if you wanna stop by we would love to have you :) | 21:37 |
| diablo_rojo | Thanks for following up too :) | 21:37 |
| dims | w00t will try, just making sure you were covered | 21:37 |
| cdent | after I did many others did, so gonna be a party | 21:37 |
| diablo_rojo | dims, much appreciated! | 21:38 |
| diablo_rojo | cdent, I added you to the schedule abstract so now you have to come :) | 21:38 |
| cdent | it's official! | 21:38 |
| cdent | cool with me | 21:38 |
| diablo_rojo | Gonna be a party :) | 21:38 |
| dims | haha | 21:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Stein https://review.openstack.org/567700 | 23:05 |
| openstackgerrit | Kendall Nelson proposed openstack/governance master: Setup Release Goal Folder for Stein https://review.openstack.org/567700 | 23:20 |
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