| tonyb | dhellmann: Yup we've gone a back-and-forth on that a little, the only real down side to havign the campaigning period overlap with nominatiosn is during that phase it's unclear who the candidates are and havign new candidates go back and answer the questions wasn't well recieved when we did that and thus we created the explict window | 00:02 |
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| ttx | Re: having those discussions all year round rather than every 6 month -- We could institute a "topic of the week" type of tradition. I don't think we'd have enough time and topics to discuss at the rate we are discussing in campaign period. A lot of people are ignoring those threads due to how long it takes to pproperly read / participate in them | 07:38 |
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| cmurphy | hello tc-members | 09:00 |
| cdent | the time is now | 09:01 |
| cdent | morning cmurphy | 09:01 |
| cmurphy | morning cdent | 09:02 |
| ttx | o/ | 09:02 |
| cmurphy | morning ttx | 09:02 |
| * ttx reads the campaign threads | 09:02 | |
| * cmurphy did lots of reading this morning | 09:03 | |
| cdent | lots of good stuff in there | 09:03 |
| cdent | everyone should answer | 09:03 |
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| eumel8 | morning | 09:08 |
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| cmurphy | morning eumel8 | 09:10 |
| cdent | not a lot of action in office hours lately | 09:27 |
| ttx | Would be great if voters came and asked us live questions ! | 09:28 |
| eumel8 | only lurking ;) | 09:28 |
| ttx | cdent: you say that the TC approving new projects leads to our action being more visible to new people than existing people | 09:33 |
| ttx | I guess the counterexample is the Goal stuff, which is also proactive action targeted to existing people | 09:33 |
| ttx | is that the type of thing you'd like to see more of ? | 09:34 |
| cdent | ttx did I say that? What thing did you interpret as that? | 09:40 |
| ttx | err... let me see | 09:41 |
| mugsie | cdent: the office hours do seem to be in a cycle of boom and bust | 09:42 |
| mugsie | there will be a week or two where the office hours nearly merge together, followed by stillness | 09:42 |
| cdent | yes | 09:42 |
| ttx | cdent: when you say "This is an important question because project applications are one | 09:44 |
| ttx | of the few ways in which the TC exercises any direct influence over | 09:45 |
| ttx | the shape and direction of OpenStack. Much of the rest of the time | 09:45 |
| ttx | the TC's influence is either indirect or limited. That's something I | 09:45 |
| ttx | think we should change, in part because I feel the role of the TC | 09:45 |
| ttx | should be at least as, if not more, focused on the day-to-day | 09:45 |
| ttx | experiences and capabilities of existing contributors as it is on | 09:45 |
| ttx | new ones. | 09:45 |
| ttx | " | 09:45 |
| ttx | I interpreted that as "we should have more of proactive decisions that are focused on existing contributors" | 09:46 |
| cdent | Ah, yeah, that. That's not about visibility to new or existing people. It's about us exercising power. In my experience we've chosen (as the TC) to not exercise power, to even claim that we don't have it, except with regard to accepting (or denying) new projects. I think that lets down the democratic promise made by us being elected by existing contributors. They hope for something in return. | 09:46 |
| cdent | Yes, that interpretation is correct, but I'm struggling to connect that to your initial statement | 09:47 |
| ttx | ok, "visibility" is the wrong term there | 09:47 |
| ttx | By "being more visible" I was meaning use of power | 09:48 |
| ttx | so we agree | 09:48 |
| ttx | would you consider the Goal stuff something in the right direction, or the bad direction ? | 09:48 |
| cdent | I mentioned elsewhere that I think the goals are a useful thing but miss a critical aspect. Let me find that. | 09:49 |
| * ttx continues to read then | 09:49 | |
| cdent | " OpenStack-wide goals are also helpful, but they tend to be very specific and don't do much to help answer "no" to the question: "is this thing I'm considering aligned with the current themes?"" | 09:50 |
| cdent | A thing I think existing contributors is an easier way to say no to the too many things to do. Ways to choose and feel okay with making those choices | 09:51 |
| cdent | I think there's a stronger than healthy sense of risk that if one does not do everything available to be done, then one is letting down something/someone | 09:52 |
| cdent | s/is an easier/need is an easier/ | 09:53 |
| ttx | There is good stuff in those threads | 10:24 |
| ttx | cdent: Re: "we need maintainers", RockyG did submit an interesting session for the Vancouver Forum on that | 10:26 |
| ttx | http://forumtopics.openstack.org/cfp/details/129 | 10:26 |
| * cdent looks | 10:31 | |
| cdent | +many | 10:32 |
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| smcginnis | Skipping way back, but I like the idea of encouraging these candidate questions before the campaign week. | 13:03 |
| smcginnis | It might also act as a good way to get others aware and interested in running. | 13:03 |
| jroll | ++ | 13:04 |
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| fungi | of 2518 code contributors and extra atcs for the pike and queens development cycle time periods, 2024 currently have matching active foundation individual memberships and so should have received ballots for the tc election | 14:03 |
| fungi | that's 80%, which is higher than i expected | 14:04 |
| dhellmann | what makes a membership inactive? | 14:11 |
| dhellmann | fwiw, https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-office-hour-conversation-starters was meant to be a place to collect these sorts of questions so we *could* have regular conversations | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | maybe picking 1 of those each week would be a good next step | 14:23 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 14:24 |
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| smcginnis | What is the next step for Forum topic selection? | 14:26 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: iirc if you don't vote in the board elections the membership goes inactive. But it's been a while since I looked at it, so I might be misremembering | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish : ah, right. I couldn't remember if we added that rule to help reach quorum or if we got rid of that rule | 14:27 |
| mtreinish | yeah, #3: https://www.openstack.org/legal/individual-member-policy/ | 14:29 |
| clarkb | if you | 15:05 |
| clarkb | er | 15:05 |
| clarkb | if you've gone inactive I think you just click ab utton in your profile to say you are active again too | 15:05 |
| clarkb | so not a permanent state | 15:05 |
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| fungi | though it's also possible to have an active foundation membership not associated with your code contributions if you don't have any of the same e-mail addresses in your member profile or gerrit | 15:37 |
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| fungi | as long as at least one of your gerrit e-mail addresses is included in one of the address fields for your member profile, we can associate them with the foundation member lookup api | 15:38 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: looking over the responses from platinum and gold members in the annual report, it's clear we're going to need to be a little more specific in the way we phrase the question about contribution | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | maybe if we say something like "please highlight any work you have contributed toward the community goals list, help most wanted areas, ..." that would help | 15:44 |
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| dhellmann | there is lots of talk about sponsoring events, which we don't want to discourage, but that's not really the sort of answer we were looking for either | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | although it's interesting to note that the companies do see that as important enough to mention when asked about their contributions | 15:45 |
| cdent | It's what I would describe as an "easy win" | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | I wonder if we have enough information, using the completion artifact links, to assemble the information going the other direction | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | cdent : they also didn't have a lot of space in the report, it seems, so I'm not sure how much detail they would have really gone into | 15:47 |
| dhellmann | it's not a bad start, but it didn't immediately give us the sort of answer we were after | 15:48 |
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| dhellmann | I can never find the UI for searching for community members on the openstack.org site | 15:57 |
| dhellmann | oh, maybe that's only speakers anyway | 15:59 |
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| dhellmann | aha https://www.openstack.org/community/members/ | 15:59 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I frequently lose that too | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | so far the first 2 people I've searched for don't appear in the results | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | I guess I should look at whatever API fungi and the election folks use to get people by email address | 16:02 |
| fungi | dhellmann:https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/election/tree/openstack_election/owners.py#n208 | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ty | 16:06 |
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| cdent | note to self: avoid reading code that is prefixed with "The giant pile of spaghetti..." | 16:06 |
| fungi | dhellmann: it's an anonymous api provided by https://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/openstackid-resources/tree/app/Models/Foundation/Main/Member.php but missing documentation for the moment | 16:06 |
| dhellmann | the function you linked seems easy enough | 16:07 |
| fungi | cdent: i also recommend you avoid reading code which comes in files with a .php extension ;) | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | I'm actually wondering if owners.py could be adapted to look at a specific set of changes | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | then if I had another tool to build that list, I could pass it to the version of owners that produces human and company names as output | 16:08 |
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| fungi | probably wouldn't be too hard, given you can use the -s option owners.py provides to constrain the changes query however you like | 16:10 |
| dhellmann | yeah, there's a loop over a set of changes | 16:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: "strategic contributions that benefit all the community" was the way the question was phrased really. I even went through specific examples. | 16:10 |
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| ttx | The trick is, I think, that their blurb has to go through a lot of martketing and legal hoops before being published | 16:11 |
| fungi | we normally rely on that for limiting the query to stable branch name patterns so we can build the stable maintenance electorate, but it can really be used to filter on any additional query parameters gerrit's search api language supports | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | that makes the responses even more informative in terms of priorities | 16:11 |
| ttx | in the end depending on the company you can end up with a meaningless random string of letters | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yeah, in this case I think the list of patches is likely something we'd have to assemble by hand | 16:11 |
| mugsie | ttx: I don't think we want it as a blurb, we want raw data that we can use for a report | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | people were not consistent with using topic tags, for example | 16:12 |
| ttx | mugsie: like what? number of commits ? Remember Goodhart's law | 16:12 |
| fungi | dhellmann: you can constrain a gerrit search to a list of change ids, so could constrain to those with -s | 16:12 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : that's a good point | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | we could count any contribution toward a goal the same for the first iteration | 16:13 |
| mugsie | ttx: true, but anything is better then where we are now. asking for blurbs is not going to get us the info we need | 16:13 |
| dhellmann | "these companies contributed to the community goal of having policy in code: A, B, C" | 16:13 |
| mugsie | e.g. the company I work for (which is just a corporate sponsor) has more upstream devs than the latest platnium member | 16:13 |
| mugsie | (even using the numbers they said they have upstream) | 16:14 |
| dhellmann | fungi : does any of this code look at reviewers, too? | 16:15 |
| ttx | contributing to goals was IIRC explicitly mentioned as a good example in the request | 16:16 |
| ttx | Personally I think maybe the annual report was not the best place to ask for input | 16:16 |
| ttx | Craetes an incentive to fill the survey, but also makes the final blurb something unusable technically | 16:17 |
| ttx | Maybe we should run it as a survey from the TC and ask engineering managers | 16:17 |
| cdent | I think the raw numbers that mugsie is after may be of more immediate importance | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | surveying engineering managers would be interesting, too | 16:18 |
| cdent | but anecdata from engineering managers would be a useful way to engage and learn from people | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | yeah, just as with the annual report it would tell us how they interpret "important" in their response | 16:19 |
| smcginnis | I thought we tried to get the narrative on their contributions because contributing doesn't necessarily equate to number of people. | 16:20 |
| smcginnis | Having a team of people updating redirected URLs and adding https is different than having a couple folks working on some key functionality. Or even non-code contributions. | 16:21 |
| dhellmann | yes, that's right | 16:21 |
| dhellmann | the answers are *very* vague, though | 16:21 |
| cdent | smcginnis: yes, but we are also seeing platinum members that have no apparent contribution | 16:21 |
| cdent | (in terms of code) | 16:21 |
| smcginnis | I had hoped, maybe too optimistically, that those members would be able to justify that condition by showing what other way they are contributing. Other than paying for sponsor level. | 16:22 |
| mugsie | yes - I dont want this as part of the annual report, I want to push this as a BoD / TC sub group (at least initially) | 16:23 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: 👍 | 16:23 |
| mugsie | we can decide where the data goes (if it is ever actually publiclly released at all) later | 16:23 |
| ttx | mugsie: also I feel like holding vendors and users to the same contribution standards might be misleading... Vendors tend to start with 100 people then drop to 10 or 0. Users tend to start with 0, then 1, then 2... | 16:24 |
| mugsie | but this should be used by both us in the dev community side, and the BoD to look at planning for longevity of the project | 16:24 |
| mugsie | ttx: we are a user not a vendor | 16:24 |
| ttx | Vendors focus on tactical contributions | 16:24 |
| ttx | mugsie: you are exceptional ! | 16:24 |
| ttx | Users are more likely to fix things that affect everyone | 16:24 |
| mugsie | sure - that is a true. But in the latest case I can't see them fixing anything | 16:25 |
| ttx | Also, when Huawei got Platinum they did not have that many people involved, and now they are the second largest org | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | I would prefer to start out celebrating the folks doing what we ask rather than worrying about anyone not contributing | 16:26 |
| ttx | I choose to see the 3 FTEs that they committed to (with names) as an opportunity rather than a problem | 16:26 |
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| mugsie | dhellmann: we should 100% do that. but not in isolation | 16:27 |
| mugsie | ttx: I thought they had a few people involved by then, didnt they? | 16:28 |
| ttx | With a company the size of Tencent (larger than Facebook!) if you can sway 1% that is a large result | 16:28 |
| dhellmann | I think we'll find that at the board level, those financial contributions are valued just as much as the code we're seeking. And we should think about that perspective, too. | 16:28 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I think that's at the center of the concern here | 16:29 |
| dhellmann | for my own part, I see that as a reasonable stance to take | 16:29 |
| jbryce | cdent: which platinum members have no contribution in terms of code? | 16:29 |
| mugsie | jbryce: the latest one | 16:30 |
| mugsie | I can't find any evidence of it anyway | 16:30 |
| dhellmann | I wasn't able to identify any listed in the report who hadn't contributed at all | 16:30 |
| cdent | jbryce: "no" was an exagerration, based on early discussions of not being able to find much about tencent in code contriubtion stats | 16:30 |
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| ttx | We still have a lot more to do to get users more involved in development, but I like to see a user making it to the Board of the Foundation. We should engage with them to make them efficient contributors | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | right | 16:32 |
| ttx | And given the size of that company, the opportunity is huge | 16:32 |
| jbryce | i've heard that accusation get thrown out at various times about various platinum members and in every case where we've looked into it, it's been incorrect | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | the next step is to help them find the opportunities to contribute | 16:33 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 16:33 |
| jbryce | and tencent has already contributed to a number of projects (kolla, loci, openstack-ansible, oslo) | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | which our "top help wanted" list does, and our goals do | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | we need to deal with the stackalytics issue, because I can't find tencent in that data at all | 16:33 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we could prepare a "welcome package" from the TC | 16:33 |
| jbryce | yeah stackalytics is definitely a part of the problem | 16:34 |
| ttx | "We are so happy to have you. Here are some awesone opportunities for you to make a real difference!" | 16:34 |
| dhellmann | ah, removing the rocky filter does show a few hits | 16:34 |
| mugsie | jbryce: which is why I sugested that we actually collate this data and look at it | 16:34 |
| cdent | dhellmann: yeah, remove rocky, and expand out beyond "official" and you'll get some data, but it looks woefully incompletel | 16:34 |
| jbryce | mugsie: i support having better data. it seems that most of our efforts at this have failed | 16:35 |
| ttx | However you slice it, they will never look like Red Hat but I think that's not the point | 16:35 |
| mugsie | no - never, and that is OK | 16:35 |
| jbryce | yeah i agree with that too. but it's also not accurate to position them as having NO contributions | 16:36 |
| ttx | Basically I'm less concerned with contributions from users starting small, that's the way the trends work there | 16:36 |
| dhellmann | it's so much less interesting to me to focus on raw contributions than to understand if companies are helping in areas the community specifically lists as needing help | 16:36 |
| ttx | I'd be concerned if there contribution was going down. | 16:36 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: yes | 16:36 |
| mugsie | but I think we need to collect that data, potentially as a one off | 16:37 |
| dhellmann | maybe we could teach stackalytics to aggregate based on goals as well as projects | 16:37 |
| ttx | One of their guys is a core developer... Freezer iirc | 16:37 |
| dhellmann | of course that brings with it all of the baggage of stackalytics itself | 16:38 |
| ttx | ok, I need to run | 16:38 |
| mugsie | they dont show much (like 4 reviews) in stacklytics for offical projects | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | I've found the book "Nudge" to be very illuminating on these sorts of questions | 16:40 |
| dhellmann | it talks a lot about framing questions/instructions to get the outcome you want as well as designing "choice environments" to encourage an outcome you want | 16:41 |
| mugsie | ttx: I dont see anyone from tencent in freezer core | 16:42 |
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| jbryce | where are you looking? | 16:57 |
| mugsie | gerrit | 16:58 |
| jbryce | do you see yang yapeng in there? | 16:59 |
| mugsie | Unless yapeng Yang is now part of tencent | 16:59 |
| jbryce | he is | 17:00 |
| mugsie | ah - the foundation profile and stackalytics showed them as 99cloud | 17:00 |
| cdent | well that makes rather a difference | 17:05 |
| jbryce | yeah...the data hygiene on this stuff is very difficult. i'll point that out to them to try to get it corrected | 17:05 |
| jbryce | when i talk to these companies, i often just ask them to send me gerrit links for their devs and try to remind them to update their affiliations | 17:06 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: none of that code looks at reviewers, but you could easily tweak the base query to s/owner/reviewer/ and get a similar effect | 17:10 |
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| fungi | dhellmann: i wouldn't trust stackalytics any further than you can kick it | 17:13 |
| fungi | i clearly picked the wrong moment to run lunch errands | 17:14 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: provide more detail about the expectations we place on goal champions https://review.openstack.org/564060 | 20:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | David Ames proposed openstack/governance master: charms: Add Neutron Dynamic Routing charm https://review.openstack.org/564075 | 22:52 |
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