Thursday, 2018-04-19

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evrardjpdims: patches are welcome to make it work with loci images :) There are people working on the docker plugin anyway. But if you don't want docker systemd-nspawn support is there (which supports app and machine containers)06:34
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ttxI'll be busy boarding a plane around TC office hour today, so I'll likely miss (most of) it07:58
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smcginnisI'll be busy riding on a bus full of orchestra and choir students around TC office hour today, and regretting my life decisions, so I'll likely miss all of it.12:18
* cdent blinks12:19
fungii'm offline all day today, so missing the office hour at 1500z12:48
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openstackgerritMatthew Edmonds proposed openstack/governance master: PowerVMStackers following stable policy
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dmsimard|offmnaser: your questions made me think about the olso etcd implementation. Do you know if that ended up landing ?14:19
mnaserdmsimard|off: i dont think so14:20
openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Add os_masakari to OpenStack-Ansible
dhellmanndmsimard|off, mnaser : the tripleo team decided to go a different direction and didn't need the driver. We are still working on enabling drivers in oslo.config so we can hook up castellan for secret storage. I hope we'll have that done this cycle.14:57
dmsimard|offdhellmann: thanks14:58
* ttx waves from cdg, I'll be around for the first 15min14:58
dhellmannttx: o/14:59
dhellmanntc-members: it's that time again15:00
cdentpeople of the world, it is time for office hours with the tc-members15:00
dhellmannwhat's on everyone's mind this week?15:00
cdentI remain a bit disoriented on the current state of kolla-k8s?15:01
ttxI can summarize that15:01
cdentAlso, was hoping to encourage other people to join the thread on board meeting topics15:01
ttxOn kolla-k8s we were basically missing the input from "the kolla-k8s team" itself on the previous thread15:01
ttxTurns out that only Rich Wellum stpped up to answer15:02
ttxHe entered a direct discussion with the Kolla and OpenStack-Helm PTLs to come up with an agreeable solution for all15:02
ttxI was CC-ed on that, they quickly converged to the idea that there was great benefit in having a single solution for "Kolla containers on Kubernetes"15:03
ttxso Rich proposed merging the two efforts15:03
ttxunder the OpenStack-Helm umbrella15:03
ttxthat was +1ed by the other two, but Jeffrey (Kolla PTL) preferd to have a formal vote of Kolla contributors on it15:04
ttxwhich is why we don't have a proposal to vote on yet15:04
ttxPersonally I think converging to a single solution makes upstream and downstream sense15:04
dhellmannwhat would happen if the rest of the kolla team votes no?15:04
ttxUpstream because they will have a stronger voice with requirements to the Kolla team itself15:05
dhellmannwould the outcome be effectively different?15:05
ttxDownsteam because it's much simpler to present a single solution that two very close alternatives15:05
ttxI  told Jeffrey that the only thing that mattered from a governance perspective was his opinion as PTL15:05
ttxAnd that we could bypass and decide anyway15:06
ttxbut would prefer a solution that is agreeable to everyone15:06
ttxdhellmann: so to answer your question, if the kolla team disagrees (which they don't seem to) we could still force the issue in the direction we consider the best15:06
dhellmannif all of the people contributing to kolla-k8s move to openstack-helm and just abandon kolla-k8s we'd have the same outcome, right?15:07
ttxbasically yes :)15:07
jrollfwiw, kolla has established some sort of governance where they must agree on these things with a formal vote, don't remember if it's majority or unanimous15:07
ttxmore of a cargo-culted tradition,ŭt yes15:07
ttxbut yes15:07
dhellmannyeah, I don't have a problem with communicating about it, I just don't want anyone to think that if kolla votes no the kolla-k8s folks have to keep doing what they're doing now15:08
jrollttx: I think it's actually a written rule in kolla15:08
dhellmannit's up to them to decide where the contribute15:08
ttxyes I've tried to impress that on the parties involved15:08
dhellmannwhere *they contribute15:08
ttxjroll: sure, my point is that the TC does not have to abide by it. That's why all projects must have a PTL, so that we don't care about specifics15:09
jrollttx: yes, agree, just pointing it out15:09
ttxand talking about it with team members is probably a good idea15:09
ttxdhellmann: yes15:10
dhellmannand my point is that even *we* don't need to vote on this, because it's up to the contributors to kolla-k8s15:10
ttxdhellmann: we'd still approve the removal of kolla-k8s from kolla, but that's more rubberstamping15:10
dhellmannwe'll need to vote on the patch to either deprecate or change the owner of the repo, but the people can do whatever they want15:10
ttxOK, 5 more minutes, in case there are other questions I can help answering15:11
dhellmannwhile ttx has time to download it to his kindle, I'll mention that I've been finding this book very interesting:
dhellmannnothing earthshattering, but a good presentation of the issues15:12
dhellmanndisclaimer that I haven't finished it yet15:12
dhellmannit should make good flight reading for any of the rest of you traveling soon15:13
dhellmanncdent : were you looking for more suggestions for topics, or validation of the topics you proposed? I think they're good ideas, fwiw (and should reply to say that on the ML)15:14
cdentdhellmann: two things: definitely more topics as I'd like to think lots of people care about this stuff (but fear they either do not, or feel there is not point); but also not so much validation of what I said as topics, but the requested refinement to get them somewhere discussable15:15
* dhellmann nods15:16
dhellmannok, I'll give that some thought before I reply15:16
dhellmannlast night I had the chance to talk to a software engineering class about "open source development processes"15:16
dhellmannthey're learning about agile and formal methods, and the prof wanted someone to help them understand how oss is different15:17
* ttx disappears15:17
mugsieI have a topic, but it kind of fits between these two, so I will try and write it up and see if we should merge it15:17
dhellmannit was an interesting experience. They seemed a bit baffled at the idea that there wasn't anyone in charge.15:17
cdentin the "how does anything happen" sense?15:18
dhellmannthey had been learning about requirements validation and user acceptance, and wanted to know how that worked with oss15:18
EmilienMhow experimented were they? (how old?)15:18
EmilienM(which grade I guess?)15:18
dhellmannI explained the idea that open source is about collaboration, so we expect lots of input up front and then iteration15:19
dhellmannEmilienM : this class was part of a masters program and they were about to graduate. It was a remote thing, in the evenings, so some of them were already working but some were not yet15:19
EmilienMthat's cool15:20
dhellmannanyway, it was an interesting experience to see open source development from the perspective of a developer who has not done it before -- I've been doing it so long it feels normal15:21
EmilienMI wish someone explained me all of that 5 years ago :D15:21
EmilienMdhellmann: did you use OpenStack as "examples" ?15:22
EmilienMwere they asking about governance things?15:22
dhellmannyes, I talked about some of the things I've done over the past couple of years15:22
dhellmannwe did talk a little about governance, but it was mostly "process"15:22
dhellmannlike I said, trying to relate it to "agile" or other more formal processes that they had already discussed in class15:23
pabelangeryah, when I talk with family and friends about opensource, and explain all my work is public, they don't really understand the concept.  Or I always get, if nobody is in charge, how do they know you are actually working.15:23
dimsevrardjp : +1 to patches from me :)15:23
dhellmannyeah, I've had the same experience talking to folks outside of the tech industry15:23
cdentthe issue that comes up most for me in conversation (and for which there's never been an easy answer) is what do you do when there is a bad actor15:24
evrardjpdims: woot15:24
cdentIf you work with someone in the same company, you can complain to your shared boss15:24
EmilienMin oss: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻15:25
evrardjpfork fork fork15:25
dhellmannyeah, I've seen other projects ban someone from the mailing list (temporarily or permanently)15:25
dhellmannit took a long time to get to that point, though, that wasn't the first response15:26
cdentI think the difference here is that the bar for "bad" can be very different in the different workstyles15:26
dhellmannthat's a good point15:26
cmurphythat's what CoCs are for15:27
cdentIn part because the available reactions are not very granular. The primary being ejection15:27
dhellmannthe case I'm thinking of someone being persistently disruptive, but not necessarily hostile or anything like that15:27
* cdent nods15:27
dhellmannyeah, the PSF just sent out a notice a few days ago that they're going to overhaul their CoC. It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes they make.15:28
cdentdhellmann: did the concept of forking come up at all in your discussions with the students?15:34
dhellmannno, we didn't talk about that. they were mostly interested (or the prof was) in how "requirements" are discussed, approved, etc.15:35
dhellmannthey did want to hear about tools, too15:36
dhellmannand we talked about sustainability for a while, too15:37
cdentsustainability in the sense of producing new contributors?15:37
dhellmannyeah, as part of my bio I mentioned that one of my focus areas was sustainability, so we talked about things like removing friction for contributors, finding ways to pass the baton, that sort of thing15:38
cdentsomeone pointed me at today, which is vaguely related15:39
dhellmanninteresting; I'll put that in my reading queue15:40
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zanebdoes anybody here want to start the ball rolling with some questions for the TC candidates on the ML?15:54
cdentI wondered about that too15:55
cdentI was trying to wait for someone not-a-candidate to get started, and then if that didn't happen, start things up. Not sure how long to wait.15:56
zanebcdent: voting opens on Monday, so I'd recommend not waiting15:56
cdentoh weird, I had assumed the campaign ended 1 week after nominations closed, but that's clearly not the case15:57
* cdent adjusts 15:57
mugsieit would be good to get some current members (who are not up for relection) to kick it off15:58
cdentgood idea15:58
zaneb"Polling will start 2018-04-23T23:45."15:58
zanebso I guess Tuesday for all intents and purposes15:59
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cdentchoo choo17:15
pabelangerchoo choo17:24
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mnaser"All aboard! Next stop Denver!" excellent17:49
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