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| cdent | thanks for the pointer to the pypi article dhellmann | 14:37 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : np | 14:55 |
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| fungi | tc-members: it's that time again | 15:00 |
| cdent | good afternoon | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| fungi | welcome one and all to tc office hour #3 of this week | 15:00 |
| EmilienM | hello | 15:00 |
| ttx | hello | 15:00 |
| fungi | i accidentally skipped #2 this week | 15:00 |
| ttx | So I'll submit TC topics from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-forum-TC-sessions early tomorrow | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | yello | 15:01 |
| ttx | Just added one suggestion titled "One Community" | 15:01 |
| ttx | If there is anything you think we should NOT submit, let me know | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | They all look worthwhile to me. | 15:02 |
| EmilienM | "TC Retrospective" I remember the last time, the organizer asked me to run it (looking at you ttx :-) . This time it's dhellmann, are you doing this, right? Otherwise I can help | 15:02 |
| ttx | We need a volunteer moderator for the S goals one | 15:02 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 15:03 |
| ttx | and teh Adjutant discussion | 15:03 |
| ttx | I already have 4 on my plate so won't take more | 15:03 |
| smcginnis | I can take the goals. | 15:03 |
| EmilienM | dhellmann: just in case you need help, I see you're already moderating another one, I can do the retro in case | 15:03 |
| ttx | Also if someone wants one of mine, please feel free | 15:04 |
| ttx | The Summit is shaping up to be superbusy for me with OpenDev and other commitments | 15:04 |
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| cdent | ttx if you want to give away the "where is the boundary" I'd be happy to pick that one up | 15:04 |
| ttx | cdent: deal | 15:05 |
| smcginnis | ttx: I can be a backup for the One Community one if you end up being overloaded there since I've been involved in some of that. | 15:05 |
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| ttx | Anyone interested in moderating the Adjutant discussion ? I was thinking maybe cmurphy ? | 15:06 |
| ttx | or dtroyer | 15:06 |
| ttx | since it touches so much on interop | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | do we have someone who hasn't yet established a strong opinion on that one? | 15:07 |
| dtroyer_zz | I'm not certain having the opinion I do would be perceived as helpful there. | 15:07 |
| ttx | ah hm | 15:07 |
| ttx | maybe fungi | 15:08 |
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| dhellmann | I don't know where cmurphy stands, but I know dtroyer_zz voted and I would volunteer but I'm leaning -1 as well right now | 15:08 |
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| ttx | maybe we could convince one of our future new members | 15:09 |
| fungi | i'll check scrollback in a sec. unfortunately the security sig meeting was rescheduled on top of this as of a couple months back | 15:09 |
| ttx | which brings me to my second topic | 15:09 |
| ttx | Encouraging people to run! | 15:09 |
| pabelanger | I was maybe interested in adding a topic at form for Working with Adjacent Communities per the recent TC vision | 15:09 |
| pabelanger | but only if others are interested :) | 15:09 |
| ttx | I've been (ab)using my platform email to try to convince people to run | 15:10 |
| mugsie | sorry - I restarted my bouncer and missed what you are looking for people to voulenteer for? | 15:10 |
| ttx | pabelanger: anything specific you want to tackle? "Working: is pretty vague | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : to moderate the discussion about adjutant | 15:10 |
| ttx | mugsie: someone to moderate teh Adjutant discussion | 15:10 |
| ttx | see https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-forum-TC-sessions | 15:10 |
| mugsie | ah - OK. | 15:11 |
| ttx | pabelanger: I feel like this area of the vision is actually one of the most successful ones | 15:11 |
| ttx | pabelanger: more of a status update ? | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | we could fold a status update into the "retrospective" session, unless you think that would take too long | 15:12 |
| pabelanger | ttx: I know dims and mrhillsman have been doing a lot of work recently with k8s community, maybe more of updates see what help (if any) there needs to be. See how we can move that success to other communities. With recent focus of opendevconf and CI, etc. But also possible it may just fall into the sessions going on with opendevconf that week too | 15:12 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 15:12 |
| ttx | pabelanger: let's fold it into retrospective, I fear we already are submitting a lot | 15:13 |
| pabelanger | ttx: sure, wfm | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | are sessions 50 minutes? | 15:13 |
| ttx | If we realize we miss some, we can split it out | 15:13 |
| ttx | 40 | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | maybe give that topic 5-8? | 15:13 |
| mugsie | it would have been great for the presentation dims and mrhillsman gave in the BoD meeting in dublin to be to a wider group | 15:13 |
| ttx | (10-min break) | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | ok, so 5ish | 15:13 |
| ttx | dhellmann, cdent, smcginnis: want me to file them all or would you rather do it and have your name on yours ? | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | it's fine with me if you want to file them all | 15:16 |
| ttx | I don't WANT to | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, either way is fine with me. | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | or we could have someone not up for election do it | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | Haha, OK. I will file the goal one. | 15:16 |
| ttx | I WILL do it if you won't, though | 15:16 |
| fungi | ttx: if the question was whether i can help lead the one community forum session, i'm happy to volunteer for that | 15:16 |
| cdent | ttx if you're in the zone, go for it, but if you want help, I'm happy to ... yeah I'll do it :) | 15:16 |
| ttx | fungi: yes it was | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Want me to pick up the One Community one too? | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | I haven't been paying close attention to the instructions. Was there an email or something? | 15:17 |
| * dhellmann has been distracted with personal stuff for the past week | 15:17 | |
| ttx | smcginnis: no I'll file it | 15:17 |
| * fungi is still pretty far back in office hours scrollback at this point, so apologies if anyone else subsequently volunteered | 15:17 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: just use http://forumtopics.openstack.org/ | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | fungi : it was for the adjutant discussion | 15:17 |
| ttx | ah ops | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ah | 15:18 |
| ttx | fungi: not one community, adjutant session | 15:18 |
| ttx | smcginnis, dhellmann, cdent: please file yours at http://forumtopics.openstack.org/ | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | ack | 15:18 |
| cdent | ✔ | 15:19 |
| ttx | Please feel free to expand description :_ | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | Done | 15:19 |
| ttx | will file mines tomorrow morning | 15:19 |
| ttx | or maybe later today | 15:20 |
| fungi | dhellmann: ttx: thanks, i could take adjutant in that case, sure | 15:20 |
| mugsie | if fungi does not want to do the adjunct discussion, I can take that | 15:21 |
| * dims peeks | 15:21 | |
| fungi | mugsie: i'm also perfectly happy to split it with you | 15:21 |
| ttx | hmm, coin toss? | 15:21 |
| ttx | someone has to file it though :) | 15:21 |
| mugsie | fungi: sure, that works | 15:21 |
| fungi | ahh, the question is about getting people to volunteer to file these? i missed that | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | we need volunteers for both | 15:21 |
| * dhellmann is glad he's not the only one on bad wifi today | 15:22 | |
| ttx | yes, moderate and file | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | or rather, not glad | 15:22 |
| mugsie | I can file adjunct tomorrow | 15:22 |
| ttx | In other news, the Kolla-K8s discussion has died down a bit, with an unclear conclusion | 15:22 |
| mugsie | It needs a bit of expansion I think | 15:22 |
| fungi | dhellmann: afraid i can't blame the wifi... just trying to follow several discussions simultaneously | 15:22 |
| dhellmann | fungi : np | 15:22 |
| * ttx refreshes status on Kolla-k8s | 15:23 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: last week we said we should probably abandon https://review.openstack.org/#/c/557501/ in favor of a goal -- can you mark it as abandoned then ? | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | ah, yeah, I'll do that | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | oh, I can't abandon it, I didn't propose it | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | I'll talk to prometheanfire about it | 15:25 |
| ttx | dhellmann: can you ask for it to be abandoned ? Then I will abuse my powers | 15:25 |
| ttx | and force-abandon it | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | ah | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | sure | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | done | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | ttx, you will want to abandon https://review.openstack.org/#/c/557785/1 too | 15:26 |
| cdent | ttx: do you think the lack of conclusion will mean nothing will change for now, or that people will just go off and do whatever? | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | for the kolla thing, I think we need to drive that to a conclusion and not let it linger | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | perhaps that means a forum session | 15:27 |
| ttx | yes | 15:27 |
| ttx | so... | 15:27 |
| ttx | The propsoal is to split kolla-k8s off and basically let it die alone | 15:27 |
| ttx | The main issue with that proposal is that it does not address what some see as the underlying cause | 15:27 |
| ttx | which is the grouping of multiple subteams under a single team | 15:28 |
| ttx | So we can totally punt on fixing that one | 15:29 |
| dims | ttx : its more like those other subteams are not helping us as well... | 15:29 |
| ttx | Basically the question of further splitting Kolla does not prevent us from splitting kolla-k8s out | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | ttx: "can" or "cannot"? | 15:29 |
| fungi | is the thought that if kolla-kubernetes had been a separate project from the start it would have fared better, but by being part of the kolla team it was starved for attention? | 15:29 |
| dims | did not hear anything saying that specifically | 15:30 |
| ttx | fungi: "attention" would not be the way I'd put it, but yes... Having a team with disjoint membership under a single governance umbrella, not able to make its own calls, is a bit broken | 15:30 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : originally we suggested the kolla team split to have a separate team focused on reusable container images, so that the technical approach taken for those images wouldn't be tightly coupled to the use of those images by the deployment tool being built by the same time | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | they didn't want to do that, and now it seems that issue has born the result we anticipated | 15:31 |
| ttx | At the same time, a team under separate governance was formed to work around the issue (OpenStack-Helm) | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | ttx: was it the kolla-k8s folks who wanted to split? or the kolla folks who wanted to dump it? | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | I think the proposal came from the kolla PTL, right? | 15:32 |
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| ttx | it's coming from Kolla PTL yes | 15:32 |
| fungi | that i get . they basically claim to have a two-part mission right now (create containers, maintain deployment automation) but the accusations make it sound like the deployment automation part is what's prioritized and teh containers are merely an implementation detail | 15:32 |
| ttx | Since he sees it as broken as much as we do | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yes, that's my impression, too | 15:33 |
| ttx | Kolla PTL realizes that the team is so disjoint he can't do a great job at leading it | 15:33 |
| ttx | (the kolla-k8s team) | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | we could review the existing kolla team's scope/mission with the PTL | 15:33 |
| ttx | which is exactly what we arned against initially | 15:33 |
| ttx | +w | 15:34 |
| fungi | which was why i (at risk of angering members of the kolla team apparently) suggested that their mission might be better adjusted to reflect the imbalance in focus between those two parts | 15:34 |
| ttx | SO basically we need (1) to align the structure with the reality (splitting kolla-k8s out) and maybe (2) go further in "fixing" the governance there | 15:34 |
| ttx | Proposal on the table table is to do (1) | 15:34 |
| ttx | on the table today I mean | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think it's time to discuss (2) again | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | but we can start with (1) | 15:35 |
| dims | ++ | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure of the technical details of implementing more of a split -- how tightly the repos are coupled, if the code is living in sane places, etc. | 15:36 |
| ttx | Objections to (1) are coming from the Kolla-k8s remaining team members seeing it as teh final nail in the coffin | 15:36 |
| fungi | the recent split between the infr ateam and zuul team is a nice analogy. we recognized (rightly so, i think) that it's hard to properly support other use cases when you share governance structure with a "primary" use case | 15:36 |
| ttx | and also raising fears about further Kubernetes deployment if we keep the current structure | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | it may well be true that the project would die from this, but if it's already in such a state that they're not working well with the rest of the kolla team I don't think keeping the "team" together will help either | 15:37 |
| ttx | So maybe we could clearly split the issue in two | 15:37 |
| fungi | having the infra team and the zuul team governed separately (even if populated mostly by the same people) makes it clearer that we can support non openstack-infra use of zuul | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | fungi : ++ | 15:38 |
| ttx | Separate kolla-k8s and see if it can still fly | 15:38 |
| ttx | BUT also promise a larger discussion on Kolla and its downstream support | 15:38 |
| * smcginnis wonders if we will get accused of "sticking our nose in things" again | 15:38 | |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : this is governance. it's where our noses belong. | 15:38 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I'm still a bit salty about that comment. | 15:38 |
| ttx | Fixing broken governance in projects is precisely our role | 15:39 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I'm not sure we've had an issue come up recently that was more clearly our responsibility | 15:39 |
| * cdent nods | 15:39 | |
| ttx | I much much prefer people interested in both sides of the equation to join two teams, rather than form frankengroups | 15:39 |
| ttx | The only objection I heard to that is "but that means twice as many meetings!" which is pretty silly | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | no team is required to have any meetings at all | 15:40 |
| ttx | You don't do meetings for meetings | 15:40 |
| ttx | Yo do meetings because you have things to coordinate and discuss | 15:40 |
| fungi | also there's nothing to say the two teams couldn't share a meeting | 15:40 |
| fungi | or even share a ptl for that matter | 15:41 |
| ttx | you don;t get twice as many things to coordinate and discuss if you split governance under two groups instead of one | 15:41 |
| fungi | we've had people be simultaneous ptl of multiple teams in the past | 15:41 |
| ttx | fungi: ++ | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | although I think I would discourage that in this case | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | sharing a PTL is part of the issue right now | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | having separate PTLs would encourage the teams to form their own identities | 15:41 |
| ttx | So yeah, beyond "my project is bigger than yours" I see no benefit in artificially grouping things that are really separate groups | 15:42 |
| ttx | and we've seen by now that it can have negative effect | 15:42 |
| fungi | fair. i agree they shouldn't _try_ to have one ptl for both teams (the cases hwere we've had a multi-duty ptl in the past mainly boiled down to lack of nominees) | 15:42 |
| ttx | OK, I'll post a new patchset fixing the repo rename issue and add a comment | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | yes, I think this is something we need to watch for in the future and be more cautious about just allowing teams to expand scope | 15:43 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I came up with two golden rules of governance | 15:43 |
| cdent | What about the concerns of kolla-k8s dying on the vine if extracted? I think allowing things to expire is okay, but is it okay in this case? | 15:44 |
| ttx | Add governance structures only at levels where final decisions are needed | 15:44 |
| ttx | Add enough structures to strongly align with constituency | 15:44 |
| ttx | a.k.a. "just enough governance" | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | cdent : do you think leaving them in place would help? | 15:46 |
| ttx | cdent: i think its chances are slightly higher if separate | 15:46 |
| ttx | not much higher, but at least their leader will care about them | 15:46 |
| cdent | ttx: those rules are something worth some lengthy discussion at some point, because while they are enough for "good enough" they may not be enough for "great" | 15:47 |
| cdent | yeah, my question there was not a suggestion, it really was a quesiton. I don't think them remaining where they are will help. | 15:47 |
| ttx | cdent: happy to refine them with you over beers! | 15:47 |
| fungi | opensteins | 15:47 |
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| dhellmann | should we add kolla to the forum topics? | 15:50 |
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| dhellmann | if someone wants to volunteer to lead such a session, please take it. I think spending some time on it would be useful, but maybe a forum session is the wrong venue. | 15:52 |
| cdent | That's still more than a month away. I think we need to make more substantive headway before then? | 15:53 |
| ttx | yes | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | fair | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | I had it in my head the event was closer. Maybe I'm just excited to be going back to YVR. :-) | 15:53 |
| fungi | splitting kolla-kubernetes out to be its own team, if that's what the kolla ptl prefers, isn't something i'm inclined to block | 15:54 |
| dhellmann | we should work with the team to understand the implications, including the fact that we're going to be talking about splitting it up further, but yes | 15:55 |
| fungi | right, i feel like discussions with them about the potential to further decompose their team and mission(s) can happen subsequent to splitting out kolla-kubernetes | 15:56 |
| fungi | or perhaps in parallel but not as a blocker | 15:56 |
| cdent | we should make sure we engage with the relevant parties about all this before making too much of a decision | 15:57 |
| cdent | talking in here without other people is a bit before the horse | 15:58 |
| fungi | i'd rather not set a precedent of second-guessing when teams want to disclaim responsibility for some piece of software. we can't easily _force_ them to support it | 15:58 |
| fungi | similar to discussions we've had around out-of-tree driver repositories | 15:58 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I don't think we're suggesting that we would do that | 15:59 |
| dhellmann | the difference I see with the driver discussions is that I don't believe we would object to making the kolla-k8s project official after the split | 15:59 |
| dhellmann | and we did with drivers that were vendor-specific | 15:59 |
| fungi | excellent point | 15:59 |
| dhellmann | and that effectively disenfranchised a bunch of our community members | 15:59 |
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| fungi | 552531 does in fact propose moving kolla-kubernetes to a new official team | 16:01 |
| fungi | not just dropping it | 16:01 |
| dhellmann | right | 16:01 |
| fungi | granted it (at least to start) keeps the same ptl | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | maybe we should encourage them to have an election | 16:02 |
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| dhellmann | or pick their initial PTL some other way -- we don't require elections for new teams until after they're official I think? | 16:02 |
| fungi | we do generally encourage them to have an election anyway, though i don't recall if we set a deadline other than the next ptl meeting | 16:03 |
| fungi | er, next synchronous ptl election | 16:03 |
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| fungi | rereading the requirements now | 16:03 |
| dhellmann | maybe we just don't require them to use the election repo? | 16:03 |
| fungi | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/new-projects-requirements.html has as its first bullet under open community: "The leadership is chosen by the contributors to the project" | 16:05 |
| fungi | and then the final paragraph says "Official project teams are expected to participate in all elections held after the team is accepted as official, regardless of how recently the team leadership may have been established." | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's what I thought | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | so for now they could just informally agree and then they go through the election process at the start of the next cycle | 16:06 |
| fungi | so yes, i would want to see that some effort was put into making sure the initial ptl is chosen by the contributors to kolla-kubernetes | 16:06 |
| fungi | whether that's via an unofficial civs poll or what | 16:06 |
| fungi | right, even a show of hands in an irc meeting or something | 16:06 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 16:06 |
| dhellmann | it's lunch time, so I'm going to go find some food | 16:07 |
| fungi | but we do make it fairly trivial for ad hoc teams to reuse our election tooling and process to generate voter rolls and initiate a civs poll | 16:07 |
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| ttx | I'll post new patchset + a comment on that Kolla-k8s split now | 16:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Move kolla-kubernetes deliverable under governance of openstack tc https://review.openstack.org/552531 | 16:12 |
| fungi | ttx: was that just a rebase? i guess you had to deal with some merge conflict(s) given that gerrit didn't persist any code review votes on it | 16:18 |
| fungi | the diff between patchsets 3 and 4 is fairly large but so far looks like it's all from earlier commits | 16:19 |
| ttx | fungi: I did remove the repo rename from the equation | 16:19 |
| ttx | (AJeager's -1) | 16:19 |
| fungi | oh, i see your subsequent review comment now | 16:20 |
| fungi | thanks! | 16:20 |
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| dhellmann | ttx, fungi, mugsie, smcginnis : I went ahead and filed the forum topic suggestions I said I would moderate and then copied the links to all of the existing ones into the etherpad so we can keep track of whether we've done them all. | 18:06 |
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| smcginnis | dhellmann: Oh, good idea. I'll add mine. | 18:24 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : I think I got yours, but please double check my work | 18:24 |
| smcginnis | Checking now... | 18:24 |
| smcginnis | Yep, looks good. Thanks for doing that. | 18:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: add "dependency management" section to the guide https://review.openstack.org/561055 | 21:38 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: add info about lower-constraints.txt https://review.openstack.org/561058 | 21:44 |
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| cdent | Does all this noise about summit hotel deals indicate that summit attendance is not (so far) being as high as hoped? | 22:11 |
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| smcginnis | I was wondering if it was that, or if there was enough additional demand that more hotel rooms were secured and now we have too many. | 22:18 |
| smcginnis | I was also wondering what cdent is doing online so late. | 22:18 |
| cdent | says the man who shows up to meetings at 4am or something | 22:18 |
| dmsimard | cdent: I was thinking the same thing :/ | 22:18 |
| smcginnis | Heh, I have no problem going to bed early. It's staying asleep that's the issue. ;) | 22:19 |
| smcginnis | On that note, time to step away for a bit. | 22:20 |
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| cdent | For me it's not being able to stand laying in bed doing nothing | 22:21 |
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| fungi | cdent: smcginnis: dmsimard: from what i gather, it's that not enough people are booking into the conference hotel block | 22:25 |
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| cdent | oh, so choosing other hotels or airbnb, that sort of thing? | 22:26 |
| mtreinish | fungi: well that could be because even with the discount the block rooms are still quite expensive | 22:26 |
| dmsimard | Ultimately, yeah, and the foundation is on the hook for filling in the blocks I suppose | 22:26 |
| fungi | the foundation basically gambles on how many people will book at the discounted room rate they negotiate, and eats some of the underrun if they guess too high | 22:26 |
| mtreinish | I'm probably self funding for the summit and the options weren't great | 22:27 |
| cdent | oh hey mtreinish: very nice blog post on stestr | 22:27 |
| mtreinish | cdent: thanks | 22:27 |
| dmsimard | mtreinish: Vancouver is pretty expensive period :| | 22:27 |
| clarkb | ya was going to ask, are there cheap options in vancouver? was recently in LA for a conference and pretty much found out no cheap options there | 22:27 |
| fungi | that, and hotels adjacent/connected to conference centers are generally expensive | 22:28 |
| fungi | also airbnb sounds like it might be dicey given the city ordinances going into effect | 22:29 |
| clarkb | looks like surrounding area can be quite cheap. THough still not sure if google is smart enough to show me usd or canadian dollars | 22:37 |
| clarkb | but center city isn't which is pretty typical | 22:37 |
| mtreinish | clarkb: heh, well if it's cad and cheap, then it'll be even cheaper :p | 22:39 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: The Etherpad service at https://etherpad.openstack.org/ is being restarted to pick up the latest release version; browsers should see only a brief ~1min blip before reconnecting automatically to active pads | 23:40 | |
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| dmsimard | Vancouver is like the SFO of Canada in terms of real estate :D | 23:56 |
| dmsimard | But yeah, 1$CAD = 0.79$USD right now.. | 23:56 |
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