Thursday, 2018-04-12

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cdentthanks for the pointer to the pypi article dhellmann14:37
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dhellmanncdent : np14:55
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fungitc-members: it's that time again15:00
cdentgood afternoon15:00
fungiwelcome one and all to tc office hour #3 of this week15:00
fungii accidentally skipped #2 this week15:00
ttxSo I'll submit TC topics from early tomorrow15:00
ttxJust added one suggestion titled "One Community"15:01
ttxIf there is anything you think we should NOT submit, let me know15:01
smcginnisThey all look worthwhile to me.15:02
EmilienM"TC Retrospective" I remember the last time, the organizer asked me to run it (looking at you ttx :-) . This time it's dhellmann, are you doing this, right? Otherwise I can help15:02
ttxWe need a volunteer moderator for the S goals one15:02
ttxand teh Adjutant discussion15:03
ttxI already have 4 on my plate so won't take more15:03
smcginnisI can take the goals.15:03
EmilienMdhellmann: just in case you need help, I see you're already moderating another one, I can do the retro in case15:03
ttxAlso if someone wants one of mine, please feel free15:04
ttxThe Summit is shaping up to be superbusy for me with OpenDev and other commitments15:04
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cdentttx if you want to give away the "where is the boundary" I'd be happy to pick that one up15:04
ttxcdent: deal15:05
smcginnisttx: I can be a backup for the One Community one if you end up being overloaded there since I've been involved in some of that.15:05
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ttxAnyone interested in moderating the Adjutant discussion ? I was thinking maybe cmurphy ?15:06
ttxor dtroyer15:06
ttxsince it touches so much on interop15:07
dhellmanndo we have someone who hasn't yet established a strong opinion on that one?15:07
dtroyer_zzI'm not certain having the opinion I do would be perceived as helpful there.15:07
ttxah hm15:07
ttxmaybe fungi15:08
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dhellmannI don't know where cmurphy stands, but I know dtroyer_zz voted and I would volunteer but I'm leaning -1 as well right now15:08
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ttxmaybe we could convince one of our future new members15:09
fungii'll check scrollback in a sec. unfortunately the security sig meeting was rescheduled on top of this as of a couple months back15:09
ttxwhich brings me to my second topic15:09
ttxEncouraging people to run!15:09
pabelangerI was maybe interested in adding a topic at form for Working with Adjacent Communities per the recent TC vision15:09
pabelangerbut only if others are interested :)15:09
ttxI've been (ab)using my platform email to try to convince people to run15:10
mugsiesorry - I restarted my bouncer and missed what you are looking for people to voulenteer for?15:10
ttxpabelanger: anything specific you want to tackle? "Working: is pretty vague15:10
dhellmannmugsie : to moderate the discussion about adjutant15:10
ttxmugsie: someone to moderate teh Adjutant discussion15:10
mugsieah - OK.15:11
ttxpabelanger: I feel like this area of the vision is actually one of the most successful ones15:11
ttxpabelanger: more of a status update ?15:11
dhellmannwe could fold a status update into the "retrospective" session, unless you think that would take too long15:12
pabelangerttx: I know dims and mrhillsman have been doing a lot of work recently with k8s community, maybe more of updates see what help (if any) there needs to be. See how we can move that success to other communities. With recent focus of opendevconf and CI, etc. But also possible it may just fall into the sessions going on with opendevconf that week too15:12
ttxdhellmann: ++15:12
ttxpabelanger: let's fold it into retrospective, I fear we already are submitting a lot15:13
pabelangerttx: sure, wfm15:13
dhellmannare sessions 50 minutes?15:13
ttxIf we realize we miss some, we can split it out15:13
dhellmannmaybe give that topic 5-8?15:13
mugsieit would have been great for the presentation dims and mrhillsman gave in the BoD meeting in dublin to be to a wider group15:13
ttx(10-min break)15:13
dhellmannok, so 5ish15:13
ttxdhellmann, cdent, smcginnis: want me to file them all or would you rather do it and have your name on yours ?15:16
dhellmannit's fine with me if you want to file them all15:16
ttxI don't WANT to15:16
smcginnisYeah, either way is fine with me.15:16
dhellmannor we could have someone not up for election do it15:16
smcginnisHaha, OK. I will file the goal one.15:16
ttxI WILL do it if you won't, though15:16
fungittx: if the question was whether i can help lead the one community forum session, i'm happy to volunteer for that15:16
cdentttx if you're in the zone, go for it, but if you want help, I'm happy to ... yeah I'll do it :)15:16
ttxfungi: yes it was15:16
smcginnisttx: Want me to pick up the One Community one too?15:17
dhellmannI haven't been paying close attention to the instructions. Was there an email or something?15:17
* dhellmann has been distracted with personal stuff for the past week15:17
ttxsmcginnis: no I'll file it15:17
* fungi is still pretty far back in office hours scrollback at this point, so apologies if anyone else subsequently volunteered15:17
ttxdhellmann: just use
dhellmannfungi : it was for the adjutant discussion15:17
ttxah ops15:17
dhellmannttx: ah15:18
ttxfungi: not one community, adjutant session15:18
ttxsmcginnis, dhellmann, cdent: please file yours at
ttxPlease feel free to expand description :_15:19
ttxwill file mines tomorrow morning15:19
ttxor maybe later today15:20
fungidhellmann: ttx: thanks, i could take adjutant in that case, sure15:20
mugsieif fungi does not want to do the adjunct discussion, I can take that15:21
* dims peeks15:21
fungimugsie: i'm also perfectly happy to split it with you15:21
ttxhmm, coin toss?15:21
ttxsomeone has to file it though :)15:21
mugsiefungi: sure, that works15:21
fungiahh, the question is about getting people to volunteer to file these? i missed that15:21
dhellmannwe need volunteers for both15:21
* dhellmann is glad he's not the only one on bad wifi today15:22
ttxyes, moderate and file15:22
dhellmannor rather, not glad15:22
mugsieI can file adjunct tomorrow15:22
ttxIn other news, the Kolla-K8s discussion has died down a bit, with an unclear conclusion15:22
mugsieIt needs a bit of expansion I think15:22
fungidhellmann: afraid i can't blame the wifi... just trying to follow several discussions simultaneously15:22
dhellmannfungi : np15:22
* ttx refreshes status on Kolla-k8s15:23
ttxdhellmann: last week we said we should probably abandon in favor of a goal -- can you mark it as abandoned then ?15:24
dhellmannah, yeah, I'll do that15:24
dhellmannoh, I can't abandon it, I didn't propose it15:24
dhellmannI'll talk to prometheanfire about it15:25
ttxdhellmann: can you ask for it to be abandoned ? Then I will abuse my powers15:25
ttxand force-abandon it15:25
dhellmannttx, you will want to abandon too15:26
cdentttx: do you think the lack of conclusion will mean nothing will change for now, or that people will just go off and do whatever?15:26
dhellmannfor the kolla thing, I think we need to drive that to a conclusion and not let it linger15:27
dhellmannperhaps that means a forum session15:27
ttxThe propsoal is to split kolla-k8s off and basically let it die alone15:27
ttxThe main issue with that proposal is that it does not address what some see as the underlying cause15:27
ttxwhich is the grouping of multiple subteams under a single team15:28
ttxSo we can totally punt on fixing that one15:29
dimsttx : its more like those other subteams are not helping us as well...15:29
ttxBasically the question of further splitting Kolla does not prevent us from splitting kolla-k8s out15:29
dhellmannttx: "can" or "cannot"?15:29
fungiis the thought that if kolla-kubernetes had been a separate project from the start it would have fared better, but by being part of the kolla team it was starved for attention?15:29
dimsdid not hear anything saying that specifically15:30
ttxfungi: "attention" would not be the way I'd put it, but yes... Having a team with disjoint membership under a single governance umbrella, not able to make its own calls, is a bit broken15:30
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dhellmannfungi : originally we suggested the kolla team split to have a separate team focused on reusable container images, so that the technical approach taken for those images wouldn't be tightly coupled to the use of those images by the deployment tool being built by the same time15:31
dhellmannthey didn't want to do that, and now it seems that issue has born the result we anticipated15:31
ttxAt the same time, a team under separate governance was formed to work around the issue (OpenStack-Helm)15:32
dhellmannttx: was it the kolla-k8s folks who wanted to split? or the kolla folks who wanted to dump it?15:32
dhellmannI think the proposal came from the kolla PTL, right?15:32
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ttxit's coming from Kolla PTL yes15:32
fungithat i get . they basically claim to have a two-part mission right now (create containers, maintain deployment automation) but the accusations make it sound like the deployment automation part is what's prioritized and teh containers are merely an implementation detail15:32
ttxSince he sees it as broken as much as we do15:33
dhellmannfungi : yes, that's my impression, too15:33
ttxKolla PTL realizes that the team is so disjoint he can't do a great job at leading it15:33
ttx(the kolla-k8s team)15:33
dhellmannwe could review the existing kolla team's scope/mission with the PTL15:33
ttxwhich is exactly what we arned against initially15:33
fungiwhich was why i (at risk of angering members of the kolla team apparently) suggested that their mission might be better adjusted to reflect the imbalance in focus between those two parts15:34
ttxSO basically we need (1) to align the structure with the reality (splitting kolla-k8s out) and maybe (2) go further in "fixing" the governance there15:34
ttxProposal on the table table is to do (1)15:34
ttxon the table today I mean15:35
dhellmannyeah, I think it's time to discuss (2) again15:35
dhellmannbut we can start with (1)15:35
dhellmannI'm not sure of the technical details of implementing more of a split -- how tightly the repos are coupled, if the code is living in sane places, etc.15:36
ttxObjections to (1) are coming from the Kolla-k8s remaining team members seeing it as teh final nail in the coffin15:36
fungithe recent split between the infr ateam and zuul team is a nice analogy. we recognized (rightly so, i think) that it's hard to properly support other use cases when you share governance structure with a "primary" use case15:36
ttxand also raising fears about further Kubernetes deployment if we keep the current structure15:37
dhellmannit may well be true that the project would die from this, but if it's already in such a state that they're not working well with the rest of the kolla team I don't think keeping the "team" together will help either15:37
ttxSo maybe we could clearly split the issue in two15:37
fungihaving the infra team and the zuul team governed separately (even if populated mostly by the same people) makes it clearer that we can support non openstack-infra use of zuul15:37
dhellmannfungi : ++15:38
ttxSeparate kolla-k8s and see if it can still fly15:38
ttxBUT also promise a larger discussion on Kolla and its downstream support15:38
* smcginnis wonders if we will get accused of "sticking our nose in things" again15:38
dhellmannsmcginnis : this is governance. it's where our noses belong.15:38
smcginnisYeah, I'm still a bit salty about that comment.15:38
ttxFixing broken governance in projects is precisely our role15:39
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dhellmannyeah, I'm not sure we've had an issue come up recently that was more clearly our responsibility15:39
* cdent nods15:39
ttxI much much prefer people interested in both sides of the equation to join two teams, rather than form frankengroups15:39
ttxThe only objection I heard to that is "but that means twice as many meetings!" which is pretty silly15:40
dhellmannno team is required to have any meetings at all15:40
ttxYou don't do meetings for meetings15:40
ttxYo do meetings because you have things to coordinate and discuss15:40
fungialso there's nothing to say the two teams couldn't share a meeting15:40
fungior even share a ptl for that matter15:41
ttxyou don;t get twice as many things to coordinate and discuss if you split governance under two groups instead of one15:41
fungiwe've had people be simultaneous ptl of multiple teams in the past15:41
ttxfungi: ++15:41
dhellmannalthough I think I would discourage that in this case15:41
dhellmannsharing a PTL is part of the issue right now15:41
dhellmannhaving separate PTLs would encourage the teams to form their own identities15:41
ttxSo yeah, beyond "my project is bigger than yours" I see no benefit in artificially grouping things that are really separate  groups15:42
ttxand we've seen by now that it can have negative effect15:42
fungifair. i agree they shouldn't _try_ to have one ptl for both teams (the cases hwere we've had a multi-duty ptl in the past mainly boiled down to lack of nominees)15:42
ttxOK, I'll post a new patchset fixing the repo rename issue and add a comment15:43
dhellmannyes, I think this is something we need to watch for in the future and be more cautious about just allowing teams to expand scope15:43
ttxdhellmann: I came up with two golden rules of governance15:43
cdentWhat about the concerns of kolla-k8s dying on the vine if extracted? I think allowing things to expire is okay, but is it okay in this case?15:44
ttxAdd governance structures only at levels where final decisions are needed15:44
ttxAdd enough structures to strongly align with constituency15:44
ttxa.k.a. "just enough governance"15:45
dhellmanncdent : do you think leaving them in place would help?15:46
ttxcdent: i think its chances are slightly higher if separate15:46
ttxnot much higher, but at least their leader will care about them15:46
cdentttx: those rules are something worth some lengthy discussion at some point, because while they are enough for "good enough" they may not be enough for "great"15:47
cdentyeah, my question there was not a suggestion, it really was a quesiton. I don't think them remaining where they are will help.15:47
ttxcdent: happy to refine them with you over beers!15:47
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dhellmannshould we add kolla to the forum topics?15:50
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dhellmannif someone wants to volunteer to lead such a session, please take it. I think spending some time on it would be useful, but maybe a forum session is the wrong venue.15:52
cdentThat's still more than a month away. I think we need to make more substantive headway before then?15:53
dhellmannI had it in my head the event was closer. Maybe I'm just excited to be going back to YVR. :-)15:53
fungisplitting kolla-kubernetes out to be its own team, if that's what the kolla ptl prefers, isn't something i'm inclined to block15:54
dhellmannwe should work with the team to understand the implications, including the fact that we're going to be talking about splitting it up further, but yes15:55
fungiright, i feel like discussions with them about the potential to further decompose their team and mission(s) can happen subsequent to splitting out kolla-kubernetes15:56
fungior perhaps in parallel but not as a blocker15:56
cdentwe should make sure we engage with the relevant parties about all this before making too much of a decision15:57
cdenttalking in here without other people is a bit before the horse15:58
fungii'd rather not set a precedent of second-guessing when teams want to disclaim responsibility for some piece of software. we can't easily _force_ them to support it15:58
fungisimilar to discussions we've had around out-of-tree driver repositories15:58
dhellmannyeah, I don't think we're suggesting that we would do that15:59
dhellmannthe difference I see with the driver discussions is that I don't believe we would object to making the kolla-k8s project official after the split15:59
dhellmannand we did with drivers that were vendor-specific15:59
fungiexcellent point15:59
dhellmannand that effectively disenfranchised a bunch of our community members15:59
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fungi552531 does in fact propose moving kolla-kubernetes to a new official team16:01
funginot just dropping it16:01
fungigranted it (at least to start) keeps the same ptl16:02
dhellmannmaybe we should encourage them to have an election16:02
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dhellmannor pick their initial PTL some other way -- we don't require elections for new teams until after they're official I think?16:02
fungiwe do generally encourage them to have an election anyway, though i don't recall if we set a deadline other than the next ptl meeting16:03
fungier, next synchronous ptl election16:03
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fungirereading the requirements now16:03
dhellmannmaybe we just don't require them to use the election repo?16:03
fungi has as its first bullet under open community: "The leadership is chosen by the contributors to the project"16:05
fungiand then the final paragraph says "Official project teams are expected to participate in all elections held after the team is accepted as official, regardless of how recently the team leadership may have been established."16:05
dhellmannyeah, that's what I thought16:05
dhellmannso for now they could just informally agree and then they go through the election process at the start of the next cycle16:06
fungiso yes, i would want to see that some effort was put into making sure the initial ptl is chosen by the contributors to kolla-kubernetes16:06
fungiwhether that's via an unofficial civs poll or what16:06
fungiright, even a show of hands in an irc meeting or something16:06
dhellmannit's lunch time, so I'm going to go find some food16:07
fungibut we do make it fairly trivial for ad hoc teams to reuse our election tooling and process to generate voter rolls and initiate a civs poll16:07
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ttxI'll post new patchset + a comment on that Kolla-k8s split now16:10
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openstackgerritThierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Move kolla-kubernetes deliverable under governance of openstack tc
fungittx: was that just a rebase? i guess you had to deal with some merge conflict(s) given that gerrit didn't persist any code review votes on it16:18
fungithe diff between patchsets 3 and 4 is fairly large but so far looks like it's all from earlier commits16:19
ttxfungi: I did remove the repo rename from the equation16:19
ttx(AJeager's -1)16:19
fungioh, i see your subsequent review comment now16:20
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dhellmannttx, fungi, mugsie, smcginnis : I went ahead and filed the forum topic suggestions I said I would moderate and then copied the links to all of the existing ones into the etherpad so we can keep track of whether we've done them all.18:06
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smcginnisdhellmann: Oh, good idea. I'll add mine.18:24
dhellmannsmcginnis : I think I got yours, but please double check my work18:24
smcginnisChecking now...18:24
smcginnisYep, looks good. Thanks for doing that.18:25
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: add "dependency management" section to the guide
openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: add info about lower-constraints.txt
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cdentDoes all this noise about summit hotel deals indicate that summit attendance is not (so far) being as high as hoped?22:11
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smcginnisI was wondering if it was that, or if there was enough additional demand that more hotel rooms were secured and now we have too many.22:18
smcginnisI was also wondering what cdent is doing online so late.22:18
cdentsays the man who shows up to meetings at 4am or something22:18
dmsimardcdent: I was thinking the same thing :/22:18
smcginnisHeh, I have no problem going to bed early. It's staying asleep that's the issue. ;)22:19
smcginnisOn that note, time to step away for a bit.22:20
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cdentFor me it's not being able to stand laying in bed doing nothing22:21
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fungicdent: smcginnis: dmsimard: from what i gather, it's that not enough people are booking into the conference hotel block22:25
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cdentoh, so choosing other hotels or airbnb, that sort of thing?22:26
mtreinishfungi: well that could be because even with the discount the block rooms are still quite expensive22:26
dmsimardUltimately, yeah, and the foundation is on the hook for filling in the blocks I suppose22:26
fungithe foundation basically gambles on how many people will book at the discounted room rate they negotiate, and eats some of the underrun if they guess too high22:26
mtreinishI'm probably self funding for the summit and the options weren't great22:27
cdentoh hey mtreinish: very nice blog post on stestr22:27
mtreinishcdent: thanks22:27
dmsimardmtreinish: Vancouver is pretty expensive period :|22:27
clarkbya was going to ask, are there cheap options in vancouver? was recently in LA for a conference and pretty much found out no cheap options there22:27
fungithat, and hotels adjacent/connected to conference centers are generally expensive22:28
fungialso airbnb sounds like it might be dicey given the city ordinances going into effect22:29
clarkblooks like surrounding area can be quite cheap. THough still not sure if google is smart enough to show me usd or canadian dollars22:37
clarkbbut center city isn't which is pretty typical22:37
mtreinishclarkb: heh, well if it's cad and cheap, then it'll be even cheaper :p22:39
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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: The Etherpad service at is being restarted to pick up the latest release version; browsers should see only a brief ~1min blip before reconnecting automatically to active pads23:40
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dmsimardVancouver is like the SFO of Canada in terms of real estate :D23:56
dmsimardBut yeah, 1$CAD = 0.79$USD right now..23:56

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