Thursday, 2017-06-29

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ttxjohnthetubaguy: Colette posted an email on the SWG, you might want to follow-up with your reviving plans. If you're not around I can post a quick something about it07:22
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fungilooks like it's that (tc office hours) time again folks!15:00
fungithe last one (01:00 wednesday) was a bit of a bust. ended up talking to myself again15:01
dtroyerI totally missed it…and fingured out why my calendar sync wasn't working, so there is that15:02
ttxoooh, office hours15:02
fungiand looked like the 09:00 tuesday this week wasn't a whole lot better15:02
ttxhappy to discuss the "how to deal with confusion" thread directly here15:02
ttxmordred: that could save us a few return trips15:03
fungii'll be honest, i'm still catching up on mailing list posts this morning15:03
fungithough i think i'm caught up on that thread now15:03
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ttxfungi: thanks for reiterating why maintaining two orgs is painful15:08
fungii probably missed some points, and it's not free from editorializing on my part, but hopefully it's close enough to an faq answer that people won't keep asking the question over and over15:09
ttxif it wasn't painful we just wouldn't be having this discussion at all :)15:10
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fungiright, we're at the point where any "easy" solutions have already been tried years ago15:12
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fungithough sdague's done some awesome work in the past ~12 hours starting to curate the openstack org page on gh15:14
ttxThat's great, even if I don't think anyone looks at that page to find openstack projects, given the sheer size of it. At least those who do will be pointed to "good" repos15:16
ttxThe issue I'm trying to fix is the one I mentioned on that email:15:17
ttx"It's about someone googling for15:17
ttxmachine learning on openstack, finding Cognitive on git.openstack.org15:17
ttxand, assuming it's an official openstack project15:18
ttxbased on those domain names, trying to check it out, realizing it's only15:18
ttx4 commits and dead for two years, and assuming OpenStack has pretty low15:18
ttxstandards and is a bunch of dead crap.15:18
dtroyerI think we do need to had a very thin layer to the non-official project space that lets us clean out repos/projects that clearly are not making any progress and are not 'done' (as in completed work)15:18
ttxdtroyer: it's actually more difficult than you'd think. There is a reason why the stackforge repos are still around15:19
ttxdtroyer: what would be the rule ? No commit for 2 years, you're out ?15:20
ttxOr would you go and curate by hand those hundreds of projects ?15:20
dtroyermaybe it can be that sinple, for some period of time15:20
ttxBeen startinog doing that on and it's not exactly nice work15:20
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dtroyerof course when you set a minimum bar (ours is currently at 'it exists') there will be those that will meet that bar then stop15:22
fungiwell, at least when we did the mass namespace move, any then-dead projects in stackforge got retired so their master branches now just contain a readme like
dtroyerttx: so much of the work we have is not nice work, it is part of the cost of maintaining a big system, especially one that wants to be many things to many people.  The number of combinations of stuff we try to think about is absurd15:23
fungii suppose we could do a mass ping of the maintainers of presumed dead repos and get either explicit or tacit approval to "retire" them15:23
fungidoing that is not free though, needs someone with bandwidth to periodically do that15:24
dtroyerit would simplify the task for that subset that will answer 'go ahead', which I suspect is small but non-zero15:24
ttxJust approved Fuel demotion, fwiw15:25
fungidtroyer: which is why i also mentioned _tacit_ approval15:25
dtroyerso are we solving for less confusion for those outside openstack or for less work for those inside?15:25
ttxI'd like to solve for less confusion for those outside openstack while minimizing the work inside15:26
ttxwhich is why I put a few new options on the table15:26
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dtroyerI've had the stance with OSC that developers need to go the extra mile in order to provide the best user experience, that may have cost us some progress but I felt was worth it in that case.  I don't get that feeling here15:27
fungiright, it was a bit of a blind spot in the original set of options where we assumed we couldn't solve for reducing outside confustion _and inside labor cost by sacrificing something else15:27
fungii also don't think that kicking unofficial repos out of our infrastructure is a great solution, but we're basically weighing a lot of terrible choices at this point in an attempt to figure out which might be the least terrible15:29
ttxAt the very least, if the consensus is that we should continue to support extra projects, acknowledge the fact that it's more costly (in terms of confusion and active work to limit it) than we first thought15:29
ttxThe trick being, that never gave us extra resources15:30
fungiit's still possible that the least terrible solution is to let the current external confusion continue because the costs of making a significant dent in that are higher than the alternatives, but we still need to give them all consideration at least15:30
dtroyerI do think we should continue to host non-official projects (optionally adding that they can make even the slightest connection to the openstack mission).  The cost of maintaining a clean ecosystem goes up marginally then, we're falling short in that regard either way.15:31
dtroyerI've been doing a bunch of random openstack + <common term> searches, the top results are almost always into the * domain space15:31
ttxThe main reason for the confusion is that the solution is currently decided by people who do not suffer from it15:33
* mordred waves to ttx15:34
ttxbetween spending a lot of effort on policing it/implementing workarounds, dropping our free hosting and maintaining confusion, we choose to maintain confusion15:34
* mordred reads scrollback15:34
dtroyerbut are the people who must implement the solution, as poopsed to those who are confused being able to decide on a solution that they bear no cost of implementation15:34
ttxBut as I spend more time talking to random people outside of our bubble, I can see that people just don't get it15:34
mordredI do not believe there is a technical solution to this15:34
mordredthis problem pre-dates the big tent15:34
mordredit predates the integraed release15:34
ttxoh, it has nothing to do with the big tent15:35
mordredit's the problem we have never solved15:35
dtroyerttx: I'm reading 'it' as what OpenStack even is - that is is trying to be too many things?15:35
mordredyah - so kicking out a few deadbeat project is going to have zero impact - I don't even care about the cost of doing it - it's going ot have like literally no impact on the actual problem15:35
mordredwhich is that people want us to tell them what openstack is15:35
ttxit's just that since the "big tent" had this connotation of "anything goes in" it just reinforced people to believe that if they find crap with openstack marked on it, it's probably the big tent fault15:35
ttxmordred: I think we are not talking about the same problem15:36
mordredand, as a body, we have categorically decided that we're not in the business of passing value judgements on projects - no amount of git repo reorganzation is going to fix that15:36
ttxLet me read your answer first though15:36
fungii still want to find ways of turning that perception around from "anything goes in" to "anybody goes in"15:36
fungiwe're not governing software, we're governing people15:37
ttxmordred: not true -- as a body, we said that we are uin the business of judging if "you're one of us" and if you are helping with the mission15:37
ttxThe issue is that there are things that do not fit, and that people can mistake for things that fit15:37
mordred <-- this is the set of repos that are unofficial btw15:37
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fungidefining and describing the software is orthogonal to the people and workflows used to produce it, and i think that human governance is the wrong place to be answering existential questions about computer programs15:38
ttxmordred: you're missing a few. Stackforge repos are unofficial too15:38
ttxso are openstack-attic ones15:38
mordredttx: right - I filtered attic and stackforge15:38
mordredsince the discussion was about confusion in the openstack/ namespace15:38
fungieverything in stackforge and openstack-attic namespaces is retured though. no contents except a readme saying explicitly it's dead15:38
ttxThe etherpad is an effort at categorizing it15:38
mordredI just replied to jimmy suggesting that we add a retired flag to projects.yaml and  have cgit not include those projects in the web ui15:39
ttxfungi: you can still find them from the description unfortunately15:39
mordredand similarly delete the remote github mirrors of those projects in jeepyb15:39
fungittx: maybe we need to reset the descriptions on them too in that case?15:39
mordredthe code will still be in the git farm and in gerrit - but it would be less findable - and both should be trivial to implement15:40
ttxmordred: gerrit's projects.yaml ?15:40
ttxmordred: I guess then the question is, who has authority to set it15:40
fungithere's a pretty major tradeoff to consider between preserving history and steering people away from dead ends15:40
fungibut flattening descriptions for retired repos seems like an okay compromise there to me15:41
fungiand relatively easy to do15:41
ttxfungi: yeah, that's yet another workaround we could implement15:41
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mordredfungi: do you have any problems removing mirror publication of retired repos? that seems fairly easy to me as well and could maybe help with google searches15:42
dhellmannttx: let's just get the TC to set a time-based rule. We have the authority.15:42
* mordred has no problem cleaning up abandoned projects15:42
mordreddhellmann: ++15:42
fungimordred: that's a hard one to engineer, i thought. gerrit will queue up replication trying to put them back unless we switch to explicit whitelisting in the replication config15:43
dhellmannif a project goes dormant for a year and we retire it, then they come back, they can restore the repo15:43
mordredfungi: I'm just talking about the cgit config15:44
mordredfungi: the git repo would still be on the git farm15:44
fungimordred: but still leave them on github?15:44
dhellmannis there no flag to control whether a repo is mirrored or not?15:44
mordredfungi: won't gerrit only try to put it back on github when a new commit is landed?15:44
mordredfungi: if we set it as deleted after we land the retired commit, then the removal of the github mirror should have no impact - or, we can probably test that assertion pretty easily15:45
fungii mean, there's a lot we _can_ do on the cgit side of things to stop publishing retired repos there, or stop listing them in the index, or even replace the index with something based on classifications and tag groupings built out of governance metadata15:45
ttxmordred: leaving aside the "dead" for a moment. What about a not-so-hypothetic open core project. People find openstack/opencore by googling something, assumes it's official, and therefore thinks open core is OK "in" openstack15:45
fungimordred: i believe gerrit also tries to refresh remote repos any time it is restarted or a blanked replicate api command it issued, but it's worth a small-scale test to confirm, sure15:46
mordredttx: can you make that less hypothetical if it's not hypothetical?15:46
ttxWe have made the choice of not curating based on liveness, but we made the choice of curating based on principles15:46
fungidhellmann: the configuration for whether to mirror a repo isn't kept with the repo configuration, you configure gerrit to replicate and can optionally tell it not to replicate everything by providing a list of repos or regular expressions15:47
mordredttx: and I wouldalso have no problem in removing things from our unofficial host that violate the 4 open15:47
mordred gah15:47
dhellmannfungi : ah15:47
mordredor being more clear that it's not free hsting for ANYTHING15:47
dhellmannthat would be a big regex15:47
ttxmordred: then why have unofficial space, at that point ? Why not make everything official ?15:47
fungi1049 repos we need to whitelist at present unless we decide not all official projects get replicate to gh15:47
ttxif you put governance on the unofficial space anyway15:47
ttxCurrently there is ungoverned space and governed space15:48
ttxunder the same branding15:48
ttxwhich dilutes the value of governance15:48
ttxand makes people just say "why suffer the TC" ?15:48
ttx(see the questions on the original thread)15:48
mordredttx: I think there is a diffrence between hosting ungoverned and hosting closed-source15:49
ttxopen core is not closed source :)15:49
mordredyes it is15:49
ttxit's just partial hosting15:49
mordredI have no problem making the distinction15:49
ttxWhat about level-playing-field then ? OpenStack is about open collaboration, we have plenty of projects in unofficial space taht give unfair advantage to one vendor. OK, not ok ?15:50
dhellmanndo we really have "plenty"?15:50
ttxIn the end, it boils down to this:15:51
ttxWe said "openstack is this community with this set of principles"15:51
mordredyah. we don't have THAT many unofficial projects15:51
mordredthat's my main point15:51
mordredthe actual number of 'problem' chiildren is tiny15:51
mordredand it feels like we're trying to solve what is actually a very small problem by completely reworking how we structure ourselves15:51
ttxand then we allow things that do not follow those principles (and therefore are not official) to appear to be openstack15:51
mordredthe bigger problem that is bother folks is that there are 1000 REAL projects in openstack/15:51
ttxThere are less unofficial repos than there are official repos, for sure, but it's the same order of magnitude15:52
mordredthose of us who understand what's going on are not bothered. the only people who are bothered are people who do not understand. those people are going to be just as bothered when they learn that the official set of projects in openstack/ is over 100015:52
ttxAlso there are more unofficial PROJECTS than there are official ones15:52
ttxi.e. teams15:52
ttxso it's significant15:53
mordredbut that doesnt' bother anyone15:53
mordredthe only people who cares about that part is us15:53
mordredif you get far enoughto KNOW about project teams, you're engaging with the governance structure15:53
ttxmordred: I don't think anyone is bothered by the fact that we have 1000 git repos15:53
ttxthat's not where the confusion comes from15:53
mordredI categorically disagree15:54
dtroyerwhen we talk about the confusion in making sense of the openstack/ repo namespace, we're talking about repos not teams15:54
mordredyah. ANY discussion about things being in openstack/ is based on people finding the number of thigns there confusing15:54
ttxThe confusion is that people see a talk about Blazar at a summit and can't find it in the openstack releases page15:54
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mordredthat will not be solved by reorganizging git repos15:54
dtroyerthat particular one is a summit talk acceptance problem?15:55
dhellmannttx: why are unofficial projects presenting at the summit?15:55
ttxwhile everything they can find about Blazar on the Internet screams it's an official project15:55
dtroyerthere is a HUGE carrot in becoming official, only offical proejcts are on the program15:55
ttxopenstack/blazar on GitHub or cgit, Blazar wiki page on our wiki etc15:55
fungithe confusion i keep hearing described is that people who aren't sure where to figure out what openstack is or does are getting bad information from unreliable sources and aren't given the means to ascertain the reliability of the information they're presented with15:55
ttxdhellmann: because we are inclusive of our ecosystem15:55
mordredbut why was it on a sumit schedule and using the word openstack15:55
dtroyerso if namespacing is going to help, let's start by namespacing stuff in the wiki, that'll make it clear, right?15:56
ttxmordred: why is it on our cgit using the word OpenStack ?15:56
fungisimilarly, everything on dockerhub is officially part of docker15:56
ttxThe only places it doesn't appear are governance.o.o and releases.o.o15:56
mordredbecause there is an explicit trademark carve out for that15:56
mordredfungi: ++15:56
mordredttx: we have an explicit carve-out around git repos and development - precisely because we need to be able to work on stuff before it's ready to be official15:57
ttxmordred: I would argue the community usage of the trademark doesn't extend to unofficial projects15:57
mordredwell - then let's go to fungi's suggestionand get rid of the git namespace altogether15:57
mordredit holds no meaning for us15:57
ttxack, that would help15:58
mordredand let's just stop mirroring to github, which also holds no meaning - and is literally the only reason we have the prefix15:58
fungigetting rid of the domain is probably a more effective solution. similar to how the new pypi is not, so that people stop assuming everything on pypi is an official part of python15:58
ttxThat is exactly what I mean by addressing the issue from the outside15:58
mordredwhat we CAN'T do is mirror some things to github in opentsack/ and some things in not-opentsack/15:58
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ttxmordred: it won't remove the "openstack" from
mordredttx: right. so we make an "" and do our dev there15:59
mordredremove all openstack mentions from any git repo name16:00
mordredand have the only place a thing gets to add the word openstack into its git repo name is via governance16:00
fungiwe actually _can_ selectively mirror to gh, for increasingly interesting definitions of "we" if it can be determined that gh social media isn't something the infra team needs to take care of. it's possible for someone in the community with the blessing of the foundation to run a read-only pull+push mirror from our official upstream repos with whatever filtering they want to impose, and ideally also take16:00
fungiover the pull request closer at the same time16:00
ttxwe'd have to also do, but yeah, that would address it16:01
mordredfungi: that's a good point16:01
mordredfungi: oh - you know what - that's a GREAT point16:01
* mordred hands fungi a cookie16:01
fungitreat it the same way we treat the openstack twitter and openstack org on ohloh16:01
mordredttx: I would like to write up a suggestion based on the above - that will not result in github mirrors going away16:02
fungii honestly don't see why the upstream infra team even needs to dirty its hands with gh integration at all16:02
mordredbut that I think will make more sense in a longer-form than IRC - AND I think is potentially actionable16:02
ttxI fear that would create a confusion of its own, though16:02
fungiit's moby time ;)16:02
dtroyerit exists?16:02
mordredwell - let's talk about that too - but let's put together all the pieces in one place16:02
ttxMoby wazsn't exactly a smooth ride for Docker16:03
mordredso we can read them - and then we can find what's wrong with it all16:03
ttxbut yes the options actually are...16:04
mordredfungi: basically - if we stop having gerrit replicate to github at all and move to a push/pull bot someone runs - that bot can TOTALLY read goverannce/projects.yaml for the list of things it should mirror into the github openstack/ namespace16:04
jeblairlet's not moby ourselves if we can avoid it.16:04
ttx1/ Keep governed and ungoverned in the same space, and try to damagecontrol on the edges16:04
mordredthat can be step one and can be done regardless of any of this - and gets infra out of the github game16:04
ttx2/ Move ungoverned out16:04
ttx3/ Move everything to something else, and then apply the trademark more selectively on governed stuff only16:05
ttx(3) sounds like it's more disruptive and confusing than the other two, but it's also on the table16:05
mordredyah. I like 3 because it allows us to be inclusive as a community - but restrictive for messaging/branding/trademark purposes16:05
mordredbecause inclusive development is very important16:05
mordredbut so is keeping branding clear16:06
mordredttx: I will write up a detailed thing on 3 so we can all react to it16:06
ttxmordred: that is actually what I was hinting towards when i said 'we should brand the infra team' and proposed Opium in the first thread16:07
ttxIf our infrastructure had a name, official and unofficial could share that same space16:07
mordredand then publication of things (git, artifacts, docs, whatever) can be segregated/namespaced16:08
ttxStill means a bit of enforcement on edges, like policing wiki.o.o or openstack-dev16:08
mordredwe've had the inverse issue with docs for forever - we don't let projects publish docs to because it's docs.openstack.org16:08
mordredttx: we could always kill the wiki ;)16:08
ttxoooo great idea! wait16:08
ttxmordred: one issue with the Mobyification option is taht it's likely to be a lot harder to get infra resources from openstack sponsors if it's seen to support a lot more16:10
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jeblairwe've always killed the wiki.  we will always kill the wiki.16:10
ttx(key word being "seen")16:10
fungikilling the wiki would knock a huuuuge entry off my to do list that i keep not getting around to picking back up16:10
mordredttx: indeed. I think we need to be clear/careful on that topic16:10
ttxmordred: or the name of the software forge could be close enough so that it's still *seen* as mainly supporting openstack development16:11
fungiopendev! ;)16:11
* ttx slaps fungi16:11
mugsieis the docs team not moving the Ops guide to the wiki ?16:11
mordredgod are they?16:12
mugsieI am pretty sure they are16:12
* ttx slaps himself16:12
* ttx sobs16:12
fungii heard the _ops_ team was going to try moving the ops guide to the wiki16:12
fungithe _docs_ team doesn't have the bandwidth for that16:12
fungiso they left it up to the ops team to do whatever they feel is best with it16:13
mugsieOh, OK - i saw an email from alex saying they were moving, so i asusmed it was the docs team16:13
ttxI still hope I could find a wiki that actually enforces page ownership so that you just couldn't create things outside of owned hierarchies16:13
ttxand migrate us to that16:13
mordredttx: it's closed source16:13
mugsieconfluence does actually do that ... but ...16:13
mordredttx: the wiki that does that16:13
ttxI don't mind the docs team using a wiki for publishing stuff. I mind random pages being created at top level16:14
ttxand then be nobody's job to update16:14
mordredI do not understand using a wiki when git exists - but clearly I'm not the relevant audience here16:14
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ttxmordred: yes you are not16:14
fungiwe still use a wiki for the infra team weekly meeting agenda16:14
mordredttx: we could just move the entire ops guide to the openstack wikipedia article ;)16:15
fungibut i think that's my only real interaction with wiki.o.o these days other than helping maintain it16:15
ttxI'm maintaining the TC status page on it16:16
ttxthat is all I do on the wiki16:16
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sdaguelate to the party, but a couple of things that I've been thinking about in the conversation thus far16:32
sdague1) this is what an ecosystem looks like. Some beautiful tomato and pepper plants, a few flowers, a lot of dirt, worms, weeds, insects, and cow poop to keep it going16:33
sdagueyou just can't have an ecosystem that's only beautiful things, that's called astro turf16:34
mugsielooks good from a far, but feels wrong, and hurts when you fall? - yeah, thats a pretty good analogy16:34
sdague2) confusion comes when depending on where you get information you get different or oddly incomplete answers. And the first answer people get will stick in their head and shape/pollute the rest of their understanding.16:35
sdaguewhich is one of the reasons I think cleaning up descriptions and putting some organization into github is useful16:35
sdague3) when you communicate in a forum, you need to use the conventions of that forum to get maximal buy in. The conventions themselves prevent you from having to explain certain things.16:36
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sdaguewhich relates to the github info16:37
sdaguebut also any other place we engaged16:38
sdaguebecause when you don't, you come across as "I'm too cool to follow your conventions". Which puts a social barrier to interacting with other communities.16:39
sdagueanyway, just some thoughts. I don't pretend that they build a complete picture.16:39
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sdague4) oh, and, a lot of these problems are information development ones. A good wiki needs librarians. Good coherent documentation and story telling needs information developers/tech writers.16:43
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sdaguethe bulk of those folks we had in the community got laid off recently, and we've got a huge void there16:43
mordredsdague: ++ to all of the above16:55
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fungithe infra spec i just proposed may be of general tc interest as it impacts the technical election process20:43
fungirendered version is
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