Tuesday, 2014-12-02

reedI think I need to just get hieroglyph installed in the venv, no need to change the setup.py arguments00:06
clarkbhttps://review.openstack.org/138209 is a first draft of running jobs withzuul00:07
jeblairreed: oh, then probably we change setup.py to build both html and hieroglyph targets00:07
reedjeblair, that sounds more appropriate ...00:08
jeblairi just added a new large topic for developers.rst to the wiki for working with branches (eg, stable, proposed, feature)00:11
jeblairer, s/wiki/etherpad/00:11
pleia2it's been a long day and I have some home things to do, will be back later tonight or early tomorrow00:12
clarkbhrm the ref:`stuff` linking didn't work`00:12
clarkbgah I fail00:15
pleia2missing : at the beginning of ref00:16
clarkbya00:17
clarkbupdated00:17
clarkbalso its a warning if you don't prefix a header so I moved the target00:17
reedERROR: Unknown directive type "slide". makes me think that hieroglyph is not installed in the venv. Am I right?00:17
anteayaclarkb: thanks for all your help today00:19
jeblairreed: probably so; would need to add the pypi package to requirements.txt00:19
anteayaclarkb: oh sorry that was pleia2, you are the same colour00:19
anteayapleia2: enjoy home things, and thanks for all the help today00:19
clarkbreed: probably. did you put hieroglyph in requirements.txt?00:19
reedjeblair, I did00:19
jeblairreed: looks like it's https://pypi.python.org/pypi/hieroglyph, so just add 'hieroglyph' to that file...00:20
jeblairreed: oh, you may need to do "tox -r" ?00:20
clarkbyou have to tox -re docs to make it rebuild the venv00:20
jeblairthat ^ :)00:20
reedah00:20
jeblairi have to run now; thanks everyone!00:21
* reed does tox -re00:21
reeduhm... same failure00:21
clarkbreed: is there code pushed I can poke at too?00:22
reedI can push a wip00:22
reedgive me a sec00:22
reedhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/138210/ not sure the approach makes sense, don't waste too much time on it00:25
* clarkb tries a thing00:26
clarkbreed: try adding hieroglyph to the list of extensions in doc/source/conf.py00:27
clarkbreed: this seems to make it build00:27
reedah!00:27
reedthanks00:28
clarkbnp00:28
anteayayeah, I'm done00:30
anteayaI will be back tomorrow00:31
anteayathanks everyone I think we made great progress today00:31
anteayayay us \o/00:31
reedclarkb, did you manage to get something in build/slides ?00:33
clarkbreed: no, I only got it to not fail let me dig more00:33
reedk, same here... it's not puking but that's it00:34
clarkbreed: one sec I will push a patch on top of yours with a tox target that works00:36
reedhieroglyph creates a makefile and uses sphinx-build instead00:36
reedso my tests so far have been with that setup... thanks clarkb00:37
swestonI'd be willing to write the section on project gating.  Anybody have some ideas on what that section should include?00:38
clarkbreed: pushed, I think that is as good as it will get in the near future since pbr doesn't support a slides output with its build_sphinx target00:40
clarkbsweston: http://ci.openstack.org/zuul/gating.html probably the relevant bits of that00:41
swestonclarkb: ok, will do.  thanks!00:42
reedthanks clarkb00:52
reedthat looks very different from what I imagined reading the (sparse) doc00:54
reedwhen I try to disable the generation of slides from the whole document, as instructed on http://docs.hieroglyph.io/en/latest/config.html#confval-autoslides, build fails badly01:03
reedi'm tempted to give up01:03
reedit looks complicated to make slides content co-exist with narrative01:03
reedthe text ends up being complicated to read, IMO01:04
reedand the rst file is already very long01:04
jeblairreed: what about doing explicit slides with '..slide::' instead of autoslides?01:06
reedjeblair, tried that but the build fails on core.rst01:07
reedand I'm not sure it makes sense... maybe it's an optimization that is worth considering later on, once we have content more stable01:07
jeblairreed: agreed on that; though i'm curious what a simple 5 slide deck on the basic getting started looks like incorporated into the doc01:08
jeblairat least getting that far would let us see what that would look like01:09
reedjeblair, ok, let me spend more time01:09
jeblairi have to run again, but i might be able to pitch in a bit tomorrow morning;01:10
jeblairreed: worst case for right now you could just remove core.rst from your test patch :)01:10
jeblair(or remove it from the toctree in index.rst)01:10
reedit's strange because it's not only core.rst but others, too... same error: AssertionError: Losing "ids" attribute: ['core-reviewer-s-guide', 'core-manual']01:17
reedhttp://paste.openstack.org/show/143070/01:18
reedand the actual log http://paste.openstack.org/show/143071/01:18
reedand that only appears if autoslides = False01:19
reeduhm...01:20
reedI'm pushing up what I have, it's past my skills :(01:28
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AJaegergood morning!07:04
clarkbmorning07:20
AJaegerclarkb, take some rest!07:23
clarkbabout to07:25
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AJaegerI've updated my patches and reviewed all the great patches you've done. I'll be back later (18:00 UTC or so).13:43
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anteayaI'm around14:19
* anteaya starts to review patches14:24
* anteaya starts with dhellmann's patch :D14:26
anteayareed on dhellmann's patchset 9 you commented: This content is useful. I think it should go somewhere and be considered for a larger effort to create a proper place with meaningful navigation for contributors.14:44
anteayareed: my understanding is that that is what this patch is doing, are you confirming that is patch is useful or are you saying that you feel something additional or different needs to happen14:45
anteayafungi: do we care that puppet module names don't like hyphens?14:51
anteayain that they were advocating for puppet-openstackci_apache at one point14:52
fungianteaya: i expect whether we care about something like that is fairly context-specific14:53
anteayafair enough, I guess we can catch that in review if there is an issue14:55
dhellmannanteaya: I addressed your comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138094/ in a follow-up so I wouldn't lose the +2 I have.15:20
anteayadhellmann: thanks +1 on both15:28
fungidhellmann: anteaya: ahh, there's the context i was missing15:30
dhellmann?15:30
fungihah, nevermind. clearly i need a second cup of coffee15:30
fungii read the diff backwards15:30
fungianteaya: what was your nit on 138163? looks like it didn't save (maybe a comment on an earlier patchset?)15:32
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anteayait didn't save15:34
anteayamy nit is the empty last line at the end of the file15:34
anteayaand I can't find a draft on an earlier patchset either15:34
fungiweird15:34
fungimaybe a gertty bug?15:34
anteayaodd, maybe I didn't save the comment before I navigated away15:34
fungior that15:34
anteayalet's go with my fault this time15:34
anteayaI think it is just morning brain15:35
fungii too suffer from this affliction15:35
anteayaglad I'm not alone15:36
anteayafungi: oh and I wasn't using gertty, just the gerrit ui15:39
* anteaya needs to be using gertty15:39
jeblairyay it's not my fault for once! :)16:01
* nibalizer tries to review16:01
anteayajeblair: yay16:02
anteayanibalizer: thank you16:02
anteayapretty sure it was my fault16:02
clarkbI will get up and review comments on my changes shortly16:03
anteayahey clarkb16:03
clarkbmorning16:03
anteayaokay I now figured out how to link to a random file that isn't a guide in itself: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/51/104951/16/check/gate-infra-manual-docs/5dd41eb/doc/build/html/developers.html#getting-started16:04
anteayaclick Here are some additional details.16:05
anteayait needs some cleanup but I think this will solve the 'provide hand holding details without frustrating experience devs' problem16:05
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anteayaso for my git clone url: http://docs-draft.openstack.org/51/104951/16/check/gate-infra-manual-docs/5dd41eb/doc/build/html/developers.html#learn-the-gerrit-workflow-in-the-sandbox it is rendering with backticks16:23
anteayawhich was not my intention16:23
clarkbfungi can normal gerrit users (with the right acls) not delete branches in the gerrit ui?16:23
anteayaI'll try double quotes16:25
fungiclarkb: after discussing it with ttx it sounds like he has the ability to delete proposed/* branches, so need to figure out what the right acl is to allow branch deletion16:25
fungifrom what we saw in the past, it requires more than branch creation does16:25
clarkboh I remember. it requires ownership16:26
clarkband we don't want to delegate that out everywhere because it comes with other rights16:26
clarkbso ya your suggestion is good16:26
fungido we have owner set on refs/heads/proposed/* which is making this possible for ttx?16:26
clarkbI think that must e it16:26
fungii'm looking to see if i can figure it out16:27
fungiyep, we do16:27
jeblairfungi: yes, release managers owns refs/heads/proposed/*16:27
fungii see that in all-projects16:27
fungiso right, this is not something we're going to be able to extend to stackforge project teams16:28
clarkbmy change is updated16:28
fungiawesome16:28
clarkball three of my changes have been updated at this point16:35
fungiclarkb: sprint-ish, see comments on 13724016:36
clarkbfungi: thank you will address16:38
anteayaI'm feeling like it would make more sense to abandon https://review.openstack.org/#/c/104951/17 and create a new patch since all I am doing is generalizing the URL to use <projectname> rather than nova and add a link to the sandbox file16:57
anteayajeblair: 616:58
anteaya^16:58
clarkbanteaya: might be nice to just do it within the same change so you can see review history of it16:58
pleia2AJaeger: thanks re: cross-project dependencies16:58
anteayaI'm uncertain how to wipe out all my changes and just return to the way it was before I started16:59
clarkbanteaya: git reset --hard sha1 is one way17:00
anteayaI'll try that, thanks17:01
anteayano that takes me back to the last commit in the log and removes my commit message and change id17:05
pleia2I just copy the commit message again from gerrit (incl change id)17:08
anteayathat is another option17:15
anteayajeblair: you don't think we need a new directory to house random files that are not guides? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138195/4//COMMIT_MSG17:51
anteayaI'm picturing quite a few tutorial kind of files that are stand alone linked content17:52
anteayaam I wrong?17:52
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AJaeger_Good morning!17:53
AJaeger_I've updated https://review.openstack.org/138272 with all the review comments. Looking at developers.rst I still notice many places that use patch instead of change. Should we change that as well?17:54
anteayamorning AJaeger_17:54
jeblairanteaya: i'm not seeing the need for a directory now.  but if we did want subdirs, i'd expect that we would either want to split them up based on the 3/4/5 guides.  or perhaps a directory for 'tutorials'.  a directory named content (that's one level down from most of the content) doesn't seem necessary.17:55
anteayaokay I can remove it for now17:59
anteayaI think we could use a directory for tutorials17:59
anteayaAJaeger_: I didn't know we were losing patch :(18:00
AJaeger_anteaya: see the review comments on 13827218:01
AJaeger_The suggestion was to use "change" instead of "patch".18:01
pleia2morning AJaeger_18:01
anteayaAJaeger_: yes I saw18:02
AJaeger_the gerrit documentation uses "change".18:03
pleia2we do use "patchset" a lot elsewhere18:03
AJaeger_yeah, seems a change consists of several patchsets...18:04
AJaeger_let me send a patch and then discuss it there...18:05
anteayayou mean a change18:05
jeblairso if we're being technical...18:05
AJaeger_thanks, anteaya !18:05
jeblairgit works with 'patchsets'18:05
jeblairwhen you push one of those to gerrit, you have a 'change' which is a potential commit (of a patchset) that may be merged to the repo18:06
jeblaira change has a collection of one or more alternate patchsets, only the latest of which might be merged18:06
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AJaeger_jeblair: thanks for the explanation18:07
AJaeger_jeblair: https://review.openstack.org/138467 is the change that changes patch to patchset or change18:10
AJaeger_dhellmann: I used numbered lists to give a procedure like display for your mega change - see https://review.openstack.org/13847018:20
AJaeger_Reviews on 138470 and feedback whether I should continue changing the rest of the file is appreciated.18:22
pleia2AJaeger: what's the difference between #. and using 1, 2, etc?18:26
pleia2I'd imagine you'd always want to use #.18:26
clarkbI have updated my changes that got -1s.18:27
clarkbpleia2: nibalizer jeblair ^18:27
pleia2thanks clarkb18:27
AJaeger_pleia2: #. is autonumbering18:27
AJaeger_pleia2: I could not use #. in the one case, the note breaks the list, so the one after it was a 1 again.18:27
pleia2gotcha :)18:27
pleia2thanks18:27
jeblairreed: i think the slide errors come from files that have no slidse; if you put a slide in them, it works18:27
reedjeblair, that's surprising18:28
jeblairreed: so i think if we want to have files without slides, we may need to figure out a way to tell sphinx-build to run on specific files, not all of them18:28
nibalizerclarkb: thanks18:29
AJaeger_thanks, clarkb. Looks fine!18:29
reedjeblair, do you think it's a bug?18:29
jeblairreed: but if you want to continue playing around, you could just stick an empty slide in each file18:29
reedjeblair, got it... ok, I'll spend some more time on that test this afternoon18:29
reedjeblair, thanks for trying out18:30
clarkbdhellmann: when oslo concurrency is sorted out do you want to update https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138094/14 to address pleia2's concerns or maybe write a second follow up patch?18:30
jeblairreed: i'm not entirely sure if it's a bug; i'm not sure if this is a use-case that they designed for.18:30
nibalizerclarkb: you have my votes, and they are positive18:31
reedautoslides = false looks to me like 'don't build slides unless there is the slide directive'18:31
jeblairreed: yep, though it looks like they were expecting all the files (or at least all the top level sections) to have at least one slide.18:36
jeblairreed: the code goes through and removes sections without slides, but the error it hits is a failsafe where it's refusing to remove a section with a linkable identifier.18:37
clarkbpleia2: would you be ok with a follow up patch to dhellmann's 138094 change?18:38
anteayaI had to fix a heating issue, back now18:38
clarkbpleia2: I kinda want 138094 to get in since its huge then we can refine with those additional improvements18:38
pleia2clarkb: that's fine18:38
AJaeger_clarkb: let's get it 138094 in...18:39
pleia2they weren't major issues, just clarifications18:39
anteayameeting in 21 minutes18:39
clarkbjeblair: anything else you wanted to look at on 138094 before we approve it?18:42
AJaeger_fungi, thanks for fixing my patch!18:44
jeblairclarkb: i'll give it a once over and +218:45
clarkbjeblair: thanks18:45
fungiAJaeger_: i hate leaving a nit-picky -1 for a single character. easier to just fix it myself18:46
fungiif there were more substantial changes needed i'd have let you handle it18:47
jeblairapproved 13809418:48
clarkbjeblair: gerrit says you only +2'd18:49
clarkbgertty bug or maybe you hit 2 instead of 3?18:50
jeblairclarkb: hrm, i thought i hit 2 then 3 after i saw your vote.  i may have missed it.  anyway fixed.18:50
jeblairclarkb: do you want to review 138177; it's ready18:51
clarkbsure18:51
jeblairAJaeger_: did you switch from autonumbering to explicit numbering because of the .. note:: ?18:54
pleia2yeah, he explained that to me earlier18:54
jeblairAJaeger_: if so, maybe the .. note:: could be indented so it's under the list item, and then maybe it would work?18:54
clarkbfungi: in 138177 you describe how gerrit admins can do all the things. for reseting votes is there a better way than using the DB? you seem to imply there is and I am unaware of what the non db option is18:55
jeblairAJaeger_: yeah, that works.  i think that's better too.  will leave comment18:56
fungiclarkb: gerrit admins generally at least have solutions open to them that core reviewers and change owners on the whole may not18:57
fungiclarkb: what do you mean by "resetting votes" in this sense?18:57
clarkbfungi: remove the -218:57
fungiclarkb: as in delete the vote? the little [x] next to it18:57
clarkbwow how have I never known about this? I guess I don't spend much time in super power mode18:58
pleia2hehe18:58
jeblairclarkb: it's there all the time :(18:58
fungiclarkb: yeah, just having your account in the administrators group makes it available18:58
jeblairit's like the one thing that leaks into daily life for admins :/18:58
clarkbwait18:59
clarkbthats what that does18:59
clarkbwow how did I never notice18:59
* fungi literally lol'd18:59
jeblairclarkb: now pretend it's not there :)18:59
AJaeger_jeblair: yeah, will do - thanks!18:59
fungionce you've seen it, you can't un-see it18:59
pleia2glad I'm not the only one learning things from reading these reviews :D19:00
clarkbjeblair: I will do my best19:00
clarkbmeeting time19:00
fungiyup19:00
AJaeger_pleia2: I learn as well ;)19:00
dhellmannclarkb, pleia2: I hadn't seen the comments so sorry for any delay. A couple of follow-up patches would be appropriate. I'm not sure I'll have time to do those today (meetings).19:11
clarkbdhellmann: ya we can handle it19:11
pleia2dhellmann: no worries19:11
dhellmannclarkb, pleia2 : ok, thanks19:12
anteayathanks AJaeger_ for the patch -> change catches, I had thought I got them19:19
anteayaAJaeger_: can we discuss punctuation at the end of a URL if the URL is at the end of the sentence?19:20
anteayapersonally I don't like putting a . at the end of a URL if the URL is at the end of the sentence19:20
AJaeger_anteaya: let me experiment with your patch before discussion...19:20
anteayait gets interpreted as part of the URL rahter thank part of the sentence19:20
anteayasure19:20
pleia2hm, it shouldn't19:21
AJaeger_anteaya: it shouldn't - that's why I want to check it19:21
anteayaokay thanks19:21
AJaeger_if you write the text as "http://URL." the period will be part of the URL, it needs an extra space to work19:25
pleia2so at the end of http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/developers.html#working-on-specifications-and-blueprints the specs url doesn't include the period19:26
AJaeger_anteaya: you could also make "sandbox repository" the name of the link and remove it19:26
pleia2maybe because it ended in /19:26
AJaeger_pleia2, anteaya: The text is currently "http://URL/", if you change it to "http://URL/.", the "." is part of the URL but if you write "http://URL." it's not19:27
anteayaAJaeger_: I can do URL .19:27
AJaeger_pleia2: exactly19:27
pleia2aha :)19:27
anteayaif that is what you want, or I can remove the /19:27
AJaeger_pleia2: good spotting - I verified quickly ;)19:27
anteayaI did want them to see the URL19:27
anteayaI'll remove the /19:27
AJaeger_anteaya: remove the "/"19:27
anteayathanks19:27
AJaeger_thanks, anteaya19:27
anteayathank you19:28
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pleia2ok, I think I'm caught up with reviews20:06
pleia2anteaya: thoughts on when we wrap this up?20:08
pleia2I'm going to grab lunch now, and have some other work I really need to get to this afternoon, and am out the door in 5 hours (5pm my time) for an event this evening20:08
anteayawe said 48 hours from 1500 utc monday20:09
pleia2ok20:09
anteayaso if we have anybody keen to keep going beyond end of day today, that is great20:09
anteayabut I think mostly end of day today20:09
anteayawhat ever that means to each person20:09
pleia2we've made good progress, is there anything specific we want to tackle before the end?20:10
AJaeger_I'll finish at the hour - have no plans to send in another patch but stay up to date with reviews and fixes20:10
AJaeger_pleia2: thanks for the whitespace spotting20:13
anteayapleia2: ah sorry was in meeting20:22
anteayaI think we hit the highlights20:22
anteayanoone picked up snippets but that is okay obviously we didn't need them this time20:22
anteayaand we merged many things20:22
anteayaand addressed some manual wide pain points so that is good20:22
* pleia2 nods20:24
pleia2tomorrow morning I'll grab stats for what we got done and share them20:24
clarkbI am waiting on AJaeger_'s change to pblish drafts to see the number list20:24
clarkbpleia2: do we have a change for your suggestion against dhellmann's change? I can write it if not20:25
pleia2clarkb: I don't20:25
clarkbok let me do that then you can review it20:25
pleia2clarkb: for my first comment, I don't know the answer :)20:25
pleia2thanks20:26
AJaeger_anteaya: we should review the final content and see whether snippets would help. For me it's time to step back and reread everything in context.20:26
AJaeger_I'm impressed by the number and quality of patches I've seen - and great reviews!20:26
clarkbpleia2: I think for the first one its going to be look up email in gerrit/git, email to that address20:26
clarkbits going to be somewhat handwavy20:27
AJaeger_clarkb: which change?20:27
clarkbAJaeger_: 13847020:27
AJaeger_clarkb: that has built already some time ago, hasn't it?20:28
AJaeger_ah, 4 minutes ago...20:28
AJaeger_just when you mentioned it;)20:28
clarkboh let me look20:29
clarkbI just rebase my re-approval change as it conflicted with the WIP change20:29
anteayaAJaeger_: good plan20:30
anteayayes I think all in all the sprint has been a roaring success20:31
anteayaI don't think we could do more than 2 days though20:31
anteayaI see folks being pulled away in different directions20:31
pleia2yeah20:32
clarkbpleia2: rereading I think its saying just get someone with credentials. Which maybe its better to remove that and suggest people create credentials if they are doing this work20:33
clarkbpleia2: because really if you ware managing releases on pypi even via our tooling you should probabl have that20:33
pleia2wfm20:34
pleia2AJaeger_: are we going to merge 138470 as is, or will you do the whole page in that patch?20:36
anteayaI'm going to see if I can get a walk in20:36
anteayaI should be back in an hour20:36
pleia2anteaya: enjoy!20:36
anteayathanks20:36
AJaeger_"project gating" has still a TBD20:37
pleia2it's a little unclear to me what content is wanted there20:37
AJaeger_pleia2: For 138470 I did all the numbers where sections were procedures, so yes, it's done - and merged ;)20:38
AJaeger_pleia2: If you think I missed some, let's do a followup20:38
pleia2AJaeger_: ok, great :)20:38
fungithere are still a few non-wip changes in https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack-infra/infra-manual+status:open,n,z which need a second (not-me) core review/approval20:40
clarkbpleia2: ok uploaded those two changes20:42
pleia2cool, reviewing now20:42
clarkbfungi: I got the one I haven't written :)20:43
fungii'll also upload a polished 138206 and +2 it in a moment20:43
clarkbfungi: maybe you should approve my changes if they appear non controversial? eg have a few +1s too?20:43
fungiwill do in just a sec'20:43
* pleia2 waits for mr jenkins to do his thing20:48
pleia2lunchtime20:55
AJaeger_pleia2: enjoy!20:55
* AJaeger_ waves good bye! Thanks for a fun sprint!20:56
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clarkbjeblair's release management doc says you can push new branches to gerrit20:58
clarkbI thought that required force push which we give to no one20:58
fungioh, i thought it walked through using the webui only20:59
jeblairlet's ask ttx about it, he suggested we add that.  perhaps it may be that if you can create a branch, you can push an initial commit to it in order to create it but otherwise can not push once it exists?20:59
clarkbline 50ish21:00
clarkboh I bet21:00
fungiahh, right, not sure if that requires push --force or not21:00
fungii didn't think it did21:00
clarkbya if you are just attaching a branch to existing sha1 that may not require force21:00
clarkbforce is needed for pushing in code that doesn't exist yet21:00
fungii'm going to approve clarkb's 138204 and 138530 changes unless anyone has any last-minute objections21:34
fungithose are the only open non-wip infra manual changes at this point, and they have no negative votes or inline comments21:35
clarkbI am biased but go for it :)21:35
fungioh, pleia2 had an inline meh on 13853021:35
fungipleia2: worth changing that, or okay as-is?21:36
fungii'm going to assume your +1 means you're fine there21:36
pleia2yeah, it's fine21:43
fungiboth approved21:46
* fungi looks forward to seeing the sprint stats tomorrow21:46
fungii feel like we grew more documentation in the past two days than in the entire juno dev cycle ;)21:46
fungithe infra-manual changes had a follow-on effect in our other projects too, for example dhellmann's change to add published docs for git-review https://review.openstack.org/13816021:48
anteayayay22:11
anteayalet's see if our stats can reflect that too, can we pleia2?22:12
pleia2could probably figure out LoC change across rst files22:32
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anteayathat would be interesting23:15
anteayaI see nothing in my infra-manual review queue, it took me two days to get my one patch beaten mostly into shape for which I am ashamed23:45
anteayaand I have mostly no energy left23:45
anteayawe did merge a lot of code though23:45
anteayayay us23:45
swestonanteaya: that's nothing to be ashamed of, we are all learning ... I just spend the better part of two days learning mock23:50
anteayasweston: great, how is mock treating you?23:51
swestonjust getting started on the gating section now ... this morning at 10 after being up for two days I decided to get a little rest .. anyway, should have an initial draft pushed in an hour or less.23:51
anteayayou have to get regular sleep23:54
anteayanot sleeping doesn't scale23:54
swestonanteaya: any library that does reflection is difficult to work with, but in consideration of other code which attempts to do this, it works rather well23:54
anteayaand you don't do good work with no sleep23:54
anteayagood23:54
swestonanteaya:  so true about the regular rest .. hopefully things will slow down a bit here soon23:59

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