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| smcginnis | #startmeeting releaseteam | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Mar 23 15:00:01 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is smcginnis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'releaseteam' | 15:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Ping list: dhellmann, dims, fungi, tonyb, lbragstad, ttx, armstrong | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| armstrong | Hello | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/rocky-relmgt-tracking Agenda - R-23 | 15:00 |
| ttx | annabelleB: ping too | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Made it back safe from Dublin armstrong? :) | 15:01 |
| annabelleB | o/ | 15:01 |
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| smcginnis | annabelleB: Want to add your nick to... nevermind. :) | 15:01 |
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| armstrong | @smcginnis: Yes back in Montreal | 15:01 |
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| smcginnis | OK, looks like the gangs all here. | 15:02 |
| * lbragstad lingers | 15:02 | |
| smcginnis | #topic Next steps for on-boarding | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps for on-boarding (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 15:02 | |
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| smcginnis | Morning lbragstad | 15:02 |
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| smcginnis | ttx: Do you want to take this? | 15:02 |
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| ttx | OK, so I posted a basic CONTRIBUTING.rst with stages of involvement | 15:03 |
| ttx | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/releases/tree/CONTRIBUTING.rst | 15:03 |
| smcginnis | armstrong: You may be interested in taking a look at that if you haven't seen it yet. ^ | 15:03 |
| smcginnis | annabelleB: And you too of course. | 15:03 |
| ttx | By default all newcomers are in stage 0, they can do code reviews on openstack/releases | 15:03 |
| armstrong | @smcginnis: ok I will | 15:03 |
| ttx | Once familiar with the review rules there, you can move to stage 1 | 15:04 |
| ttx | which is about approving release requests | 15:04 |
| ttx | to achieve that, you must be successful in stage 0 and learn a few more tricks | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | annabelleB and I walked through a review together wednesday. I can turn the notes from that into more detailed review guidelines. | 15:04 |
| ttx | I've been trying to document those 1st two stages but it's probably still incomplete | 15:04 |
| ttx | right | 15:05 |
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| ttx | Best way to try that ladder while doc is still incomplete is to walk through it with a reviewbuddy | 15:05 |
| smcginnis | And make notes and propose updates to help flesh out that guide better. | 15:06 |
| ttx | Stage 1 is more about understanding what happens when you press the button, and learn when not to press the button | 15:06 |
| smcginnis | When not to press is usually the trickier one. | 15:07 |
| armstrong | Sounds good to me | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | do we want those details in the contributing doc? or a separate review-guidelines file? | 15:07 |
| ttx | So for the moment feel free to do some release reviews or ask questions on how to do them | 15:07 |
| annabelleB | read through the release management docs and README last night—did find it helpful to read them side by side, but didn’t end up with a ton of “this needs to be clarified” questions | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | I was thinking this doc could link to more deep-dive material. | 15:07 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: yeah, I would rather keep the CONTRIBUTING file simple | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | makes sense | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | annabelleB: Awesome! | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I'll start a new file | 15:08 |
| smcginnis | I think (hope) this is something we can continually evolve. | 15:08 |
| ttx | for example I think we should not go beyond the primer when it comes to explaining the release infra | 15:08 |
| ttx | but I think understanding that it is two separate steps is important | 15:09 |
| ttx | since that's not very intuitive | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | ttx, are you worried about writing up details that are likely to change? or making it seem too complicated? | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | ttx: I do like how this ended up. Nice work. | 15:09 |
| ttx | dhellmann: too complicated I guess... | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | ok | 15:10 |
| ttx | dhellmann: although a separate file with review guidelines might end up being overall more complex than inline | 15:10 |
| ttx | the line is really between tutorial and reference | 15:10 |
| fungi | but also, duplicating documentation inevitably leads to confusing divergence | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | let's see what I actually come up with and we can talk about it in the review | 15:10 |
| smcginnis | I do like being able to quickly see the big picture, then being able to get into specific details. | 15:11 |
| fungi | so linking to somewhere else things are explained in detail reduces the chances of that | 15:11 |
| ttx | The CONTRIBUTING file is a tutorial with steps, pointing to reference material | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | I think we have some guidelines in the readme already, so I'll move those and add to it and then refer to the new file from both places | 15:11 |
| fungi | seems like a fine scope for that document | 15:11 |
| ttx | Like we would point to PROCESS rather than duplicating info | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | sure | 15:11 |
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| ttx | review guidelines are a bit in the grey area | 15:11 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: Or refer to the CONTRIBUTING doc if it makes sense based on context. | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | ok | 15:12 |
| ttx | They could fit in the document, I just fear it will end up making a discouraging read | 15:12 |
| ttx | so it depends how wordy you expect the result to be | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I have an hour's worth of irc logs to condense so let me see how that turns out | 15:13 |
| ttx | that is all | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | #topic Next steps on simplifying branch ACL process | 15:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next steps on simplifying branch ACL process (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 15:14 | |
| ttx | ohai! | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | I think Tony's patch still needs to merge, right? | 15:14 |
| ttx | Sure but we have the general idea | 15:14 |
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| smcginnis | So we've passed governance allowing it, but stable has not technically changed yet. | 15:15 |
| ttx | (the EM definition is merged) | 15:15 |
| ttx | Issue is... | 15:15 |
| ttx | quoting the plan we came up with in Dublin... | 15:15 |
| ttx | "makes a lot of sense if we're going to have per-series LTS ownership groups anyway" | 15:15 |
| smcginnis | And now we are not. | 15:15 |
| ttx | We already know that EM as defined is not really encouraging separate groups | 15:15 |
| ttx | Furthermore... Patching ACLs every cycle to add a per-project per-branch group might be overkill | 15:16 |
| ttx | So I'm wondering if we are not prematurely optimizing | 15:16 |
| ttx | We could just give $PROJECT-stable-maint control over stable/* once and for all, include Release Managers there, and let projects get more specific if they really want to | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | How is that different than our process so far? More power to the teams rather that the "stable" team for controlling those rights? | 15:17 |
| ttx | So, currently... | 15:17 |
| ttx | Every cycle we create a specific ACL for the stable/$under-development to-be-created branch | 15:18 |
| ttx | That ACL points to a magic group | 15:18 |
| ttx | which initially contains release managers | 15:18 |
| ttx | then when we release, we change the content of the magic group to point to $project-stable-maint | 15:19 |
| ttx | and then we remove the specific ACL | 15:19 |
| ttx | The difference is that stable-maint doesn't have control on the pre-release branch | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | So you're proposing we skip the magic ACL step? | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | And just go to the final stable state. | 15:19 |
| ttx | I'm proposing to skip all steps | 15:19 |
| fungi | the reduction in acl churn would be marvellous | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | That makes sense to me and I like how it would simlify things. | 15:20 |
| ttx | Have stable/* pointing to $project-stable-maint and never change that | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | And even simplify them. | 15:20 |
| smcginnis | Anyone have concerns with that approach? | 15:20 |
| ttx | Basically we are trusting $project-stable-maint to not do anythign crazy with pre-release branch, and they are trusting us to not do anythign crazy with post-release stable branches | 15:21 |
| ttx | This complex process was designed for a time when we expected very different people | 15:22 |
| ttx | to handle pre-release and post-release | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, I don't think that is the reality today. | 15:22 |
| ttx | In reality, those are the same people 99% of the time | 15:22 |
| ttx | So it's a pretty costly process to handle those rare cases | 15:22 |
| fungi | i thnik trusting people for a couple weeks is better than complex process to work around a lack of trust | 15:22 |
| ttx | furthermore we are not preventing those rare cases to be specified | 15:22 |
| ttx | IF you really want to have complex ACLs you still can | 15:22 |
| ttx | But that's a project choice, and not part of release process | 15:23 |
| smcginnis | fungi: ++ | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | I like a process change that means we just stop doing things. | 15:23 |
| * fungi would love to stop doing lots more things! ;) | 15:23 | |
| smcginnis | Hah, yep. That's a nice direction. | 15:23 |
| ttx | I think we already have the required rights, too. Like release managers is in stable-maint-core which is in every stable-maint team | 15:24 |
| ttx | so the "they are trusting us to not do anythign crazy with post-release stable branches" part is probably already a reality | 15:24 |
| * ttx checks | 15:24 | |
| fungi | those acl changes have also been a time-sensitive step in the past, and the people who are expected to review them are basically looking at thousands of lines of almost identical machine-generated changes | 15:24 |
| smcginnis | So it seems we are all in agreement. Just update the PROCESS doc? Or should we start a ML thread first and see if there are any concerns. | 15:25 |
| fungi | which has not been a great use of their time | 15:25 |
| ttx | yes, we are trusted already | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | so we need to communicate the change to the other folks and then update our process document | 15:25 |
| ttx | OK, I can handle that | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Thanks | 15:26 |
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| smcginnis | #action ttx to write an email about dropping red tape | 15:26 |
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| smcginnis | #info Plan is to not have interim pre-release ACLs and go right to stable ACL | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | Anything else on this topic? | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | And any other topics? Nothing more on the agenda. | 15:27 |
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| ttx | Also 'm looking forward not having to explain that ACL dance ever again | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | indeed | 15:28 |
| smcginnis | #topic Open discussion | 15:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 15:28 | |
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| dhellmann | I've been making some progress on the change to stop syncing requirements | 15:29 |
| ttx | smcginnis, dhellmann: so are you coming to Copenhagen ? annabelleB and I will be there | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | reviews appreciated | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:requirements-stop-syncing+(status:open+OR+status:merged) | 15:29 |
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| smcginnis | ttx: Yes, I did get final approval. | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | I need to book that trip, but I have approval | 15:29 |
| ttx | wow, release team almost complete | 15:29 |
| smcginnis | All booked other than actual conference registration. | 15:29 |
| ttx | oh, I should probably book that conference ticket | 15:30 |
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| armstrong | @ttx which conference? | 15:31 |
| * ttx wonders if he qualifies for Individual ticket, since he works for non-rofit | 15:31 | |
| ttx | +p | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: I'm hoping to review some more of those later today. | 15:31 |
| ttx | armstrong: KubeCon EU | 15:31 |
| armstrong | Oh ok | 15:31 |
| armstrong | Is the release team also involved with that? | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | armstrong : we work closely with the requirements team, so not directly but sort of | 15:32 |
| smcginnis | Just from a cross open source collaboration perspective. | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | oh, or do you mean kubecon? | 15:33 |
| armstrong | Ok! got It | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | I think I mixed up 2 conversations there | 15:33 |
| ttx | it happens that release management and community outreach people are a close match | 15:33 |
| smcginnis | https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2018/ | 15:33 |
| armstrong | Yes, I was asking about the kubecon | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | Nothing really to do with OpenStack other than being able to talk about sharing lessons learned and building good community connections. | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | OK, anything else for today? Or should we call it a wrap? | 15:36 |
| armstrong | @smcginnis: sounds good | 15:36 |
| smcginnis | armstrong: If you're interested in that kind of thing but can't attend, I think ttx wrote up some nice summaries of discussions from the last time. | 15:37 |
| armstrong | Sure Am | 15:38 |
| armstrong | sure I am interested | 15:38 |
| smcginnis | OK, everyone else has gotten quiet, so I'll take that as a sign. :) | 15:39 |
| smcginnis | Thanks everyone! | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:39 |
| ttx | thx smcginnis | 15:39 |
| annabelleB | thank you!! | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | thx | 15:39 |
| smcginnis | #endmeeting | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:39 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Mar 23 15:39:37 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:39 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2018/releaseteam.2018-03-23-15.00.html | 15:39 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2018/releaseteam.2018-03-23-15.00.txt | 15:39 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2018/releaseteam.2018-03-23-15.00.log.html | 15:39 |
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