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| dougwig | o/ | 13:58 |
|---|---|---|
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| vivek-ebay | o/ | 13:58 |
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| samuelbercovici | hello! | 13:58 |
| rm_work | hi | 13:59 |
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| blogan | hello | 13:59 |
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| jorgem | o/ | 13:59 |
| dougwig | #startmeeting neutron lbaas | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 11 14:00:04 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dougwig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_lbaas' | 14:00 |
| dougwig | agenda: | 14:00 |
| dougwig | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/LBaaS#Meeting_11.09.2014 | 14:00 |
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| balles | morning | 14:00 |
| dougwig | #topic Announcements | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:00 | |
| xgerman | morning | 14:00 |
| jorgem | morning | 14:00 |
| rm_work | o/ | 14:00 |
| vivek-ebay | \o/ | 14:00 |
| sbalukoff | Morning! | 14:00 |
| dougwig | i think we're in the middle of rc1. i don't think that has any lbaas stuff | 14:00 |
| johnsom | morning team | 14:00 |
| dougwig | #link #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/juno-rc1 | 14:00 |
| dougwig | link link | 14:00 |
| dougwig | #link https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/juno-rc1 | 14:00 |
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| dougwig | kilo specs are around the corner. | 14:01 |
| dougwig | any other announcements? | 14:01 |
| dougwig | moving | 14:01 |
| dougwig | on | 14:01 |
| dougwig | #topic Barbican integration -- Keystone Trusts, comments and concerns (rm_work) | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barbican integration -- Keystone Trusts, comments and concerns (rm_work) (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:01 | |
| dougwig | rm_work? | 14:01 |
| rm_work | yeah | 14:02 |
| dougwig | the floor is yours | 14:02 |
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| rm_work | so, this was my action item from last week (actually to send this to the mailing list) but there were some … complications | 14:02 |
| rm_work | so, this is the workflow I had hoped we could use: http://i.imgur.com/74BUbMf.png | 14:02 |
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| xgerman | I object to the word "hijacks" | 14:03 |
| sbalukoff | Heh! | 14:03 |
| rm_work | yes | 14:03 |
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| rm_work | well | 14:03 |
| rm_work | i'm getting to WHY i use that term specifically | 14:03 |
| rm_work | so, more granularly, it looks like this: http://goo.gl/X3kKIX | 14:03 |
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| jorgem | http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw?lz=dGl0bGUgTEJhYVMtS2V5c3RvbmUtQmFyYmljYW4gSW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gKGFzc3VtaW5nIGFuIEFzeW5jIEFwcGxpYW5jZSkKClVzZXItPgA7CDogR2V0IGEgVXNlciBUb2tlbgpub3RlIGxlZnQgb2YAEwU6IHVzaW5nAB8FbmFtZS9QYXNzd29yZAoAgQAJPgAiBlJldHVybgBBDgBqBgCBIgg6IENyZWF0ZSBhIFNlY3JldCAiQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUiAF8eAIEaBwCBbggAZw8ASgZJRDEAUSJQcml2YXRlIEtleQAuRTIAgUwaQ29udGFpbmVyICJNeSAAgSRIAE0JSUQAg0oHAIQVBQCCUwtUTFMgVGVybWluYXRlZCB | 14:04 |
| sbalukoff | That'll take a minute to digest. | 14:04 |
| jorgem | that doesn't have ad stuff | 14:04 |
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| rm_work | jorgem: the full link is unworkable for IRC <_< | 14:04 |
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| blogan | i think my day has been settled | 14:04 |
| rm_work | you actually only posted like 1/2 of it :P | 14:05 |
| blogan | wtg jorgem | 14:05 |
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| xgerman | somehow jorgem's link worked for me | 14:05 |
| rm_work | err maybe 1/4 of it | 14:05 |
| jorgem | i see the whole link…oh well | 14:05 |
| rm_work | look at the diagram | 14:05 |
| rm_work | it goes down to like | 14:05 |
| dougwig | #link http://i.imgur.com/74BUbMf.png | 14:05 |
| rm_work | 1/8 of the length of the full one | 14:05 |
| rm_work | anyway | 14:05 |
| dougwig | #link http://goo.gl/X3kKIX | 14:05 |
| dougwig | #link | 14:06 |
| dougwig | http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw?lz=dGl0bGUgTEJhYVMtS2V5c3RvbmUtQmFyYmljYW4gSW50ZXJhY3Rpb24gKGFzc3VtaW5nIGFuIEFzeW5jIEFwcGxpYW5jZSkKClVzZXItPgA7CDogR2V0IGEgVXNlciBUb2tlbgpub3RlIGxlZnQgb2YAEwU6IHVzaW5nAB8FbmFtZS9QYXNzd29yZAoAgQAJPgAiBlJldHVybgBBDgBqBgCBIgg6IENyZWF0ZSBhIFNlY3JldCAiQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUiAF8eAIEaBwCBbggAZw8ASgZJRDEAUSJQcml2YXRlIEtleQAu | 14:06 |
| dougwig | RTIAgUwaQ29udGFpbmVyICJNeSAAgSRIAE0JSUQAg0oHAIQVBQCCUwtUTFMgVGVybWluYXRlZCB | 14:06 |
| rm_work | yeah is it ok if I give people a minute to digest that before I move on? | 14:06 |
| dougwig | heh | 14:06 |
| rm_work | yeah seriously | 14:06 |
| rm_work | the link doesn't work in IRC :P | 14:06 |
| blogan | i object to the word "appliance" | 14:06 |
| xgerman | heh | 14:06 |
| balles | I did a copy link and was able to get that link up in my browser | 14:06 |
| rm_work | blogan: I object to your face, but that's equally irrelevant | 14:06 |
| rm_work | balles: it's not the WHOLE diagram | 14:06 |
| rm_work | it cuts off | 14:07 |
| rm_work | trust me :P | 14:07 |
| sbalukoff | Haha | 14:07 |
| balles | oh I see | 14:07 |
| balles | lol | 14:07 |
| blogan | i blame jorgem for this | 14:07 |
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| rm_work | #link the last link is not useful | 14:07 |
| rm_work | anyway | 14:07 |
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| rm_work | maybe people have managed to kind of look through that | 14:08 |
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| rm_work | so, the issue is with the kind of Keystone Tokens that will be coming in | 14:08 |
| sbalukoff | I don't see anything wrong with this sequence at first glance. Note that it is early, and I'm not sure my usual snarkiness is awake. | 14:08 |
| xgerman | you say that likes a bad thing | 14:09 |
| rm_work | So, this is great from a usability standpoint, because it is completely transparent to the user | 14:09 |
| xgerman | yep, I oike that | 14:09 |
| rm_work | but (and this is the reason I used "hijack" in the first chart, on purpose) it really is a bit scary from a security perspective | 14:09 |
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| rm_work | and besides that, apparently Trusts cannot be created using a Token that is already a Trust Token | 14:10 |
| rm_work | which is what HEAT and possibly Horizon will be using | 14:10 |
| samuelbercovici | so in this case instead of having the "user cred" we store the "Trust ID"? | 14:10 |
| rm_work | or a Token which the user has specifically made lower privilege, which apparently is a thing people do? | 14:10 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: yes | 14:10 |
| rm_work | which then allows us to "Execute the Trust" with Keystone, which is very similar to getting a token to begin with | 14:11 |
| vivek-ebay | is storing "Trust ID" equally dangerous as storing password ? | 14:11 |
| balles | rm_work, I know Trove is doing something similar | 14:11 |
| rm_work | we use our own token to talk to keystone and pass the trust ID, and we get a Trust Token back | 14:11 |
| samuelbercovici | can "Trust ID" be hijacked? in other words if someone elase has the "trus id" can he then read the secured information? | 14:11 |
| rm_work | vivek-ebay: well, the trust is only useful for our account, so they'd need the TrustID *and* a valid token for our service account | 14:12 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: ^^ | 14:12 |
| rm_work | the TrustID is linked specifically between two accounts | 14:12 |
| sbalukoff | So it's slightly less dangerous than storing the user's password. But only slightly. | 14:12 |
| rm_work | but Keystone *does* consider them "sensitive data" | 14:12 |
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| xgerman | well, what's the alternative? Storing the certs in our DB? | 14:12 |
| sbalukoff | Is there any way around that? | 14:12 |
| sbalukoff | jinx! | 14:13 |
| samuelbercovici | ic. so the hijacker needs to impersonat the LBaaS service user whic is supposed to be non-interactive? | 14:13 |
| rm_work | if someone were to compromise our API box, yeah, they could get the password to our service account from config, and also access to our DB and then to the TrustIDs | 14:13 |
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| dougwig | is this the new way of doing cross-service stuff? i note that for using nova, there is just a user/pass in the clear in neutron.conf | 14:13 |
| vivek-ebay | I assume this is not specific to LBaaS and should be a common problem. What does Barbican guys suggest ? | 14:13 |
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| rm_work | well, I have seem some stuff about Postern | 14:13 |
| dougwig | ahh, you answered my question one line before i asked it. | 14:13 |
| rm_work | but it's kind of a chicken/egg problem | 14:13 |
| xgerman | well, we can use encrypted config files | 14:14 |
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| xgerman | we can force users to enter pwd at startup... | 14:14 |
| xgerman | that's am old /solved problem in CS | 14:14 |
| sbalukoff | Eew and eew. | 14:14 |
| sbalukoff | ;) | 14:14 |
| rm_work | #link https://github.com/cloudkeep/postern | 14:14 |
| rm_work | I think that's the right repo | 14:14 |
| rm_work | but obviously… not ready | 14:15 |
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| rm_work | so anyway, we've got two real issues here | 14:15 |
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| rm_work | 1) This whole thing is a security issue (almost just kicking the rock down the road) | 14:16 |
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| rm_work | 2) We may not actually be able to do Trust creation on our side -- it may be NECESSARY to have the user do it themselves (though we can provide them a template) | 14:16 |
| * TrevorV late but present :( | 14:16 | |
| xgerman | 2) Worries me more than 1) | 14:16 |
| blogan | 2 is a terrible user experience | 14:17 |
| rm_work | I don't know if #1 is solvable at the moment, and this is still better than just plaintext certs in the DB | 14:17 |
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| xgerman | rm_work +1 | 14:17 |
| rm_work | so yes, #2 here is my real discussion topic | 14:17 |
| xgerman | can horizon do #2? | 14:17 |
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| samuelbercovici | so in other words, the user authorizes lbaas to be allowed access to his secrets, right? | 14:17 |
| rm_work | Well, I need to get in touch with someone from Horizon -- I asked in their IRC channel yesterday but never got a response | 14:18 |
| balles | It looks like the use has to do something with rehards to trusts. The doc says: In both cases, the users authorizes it at setup time to perform this action any time in the future, long after the token is expired. | 14:18 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: yes | 14:18 |
| balles | rm_work, ^^^ but I am sure you know that already | 14:18 |
| rm_work | balles: right, it allows us to essentially get a new token | 14:18 |
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| rm_work | on our own | 14:18 |
| rm_work | but the issue is that Creating Trusts requires a "full privilege" user token | 14:18 |
| rm_work | and many of the use-cases will have some other service already using a lower privilege Trust Token | 14:19 |
| xgerman | so let's split that problem | 14:19 |
| rm_work | so we'll be given a token that doesn't have the ability to create a Trust | 14:19 |
| blogan | even if horizon exposes it, if horizon uses a trust then horizon would not be able to create another trust for lbaas | 14:19 |
| rm_work | blogan: yeah, and i am not 100% clear on that | 14:20 |
| xgerman | I am ok with the command line being cumbersome | 14:20 |
| rm_work | but i don't know how else horizon would work? | 14:20 |
| rm_work | if we think 99% of our users will come from the API, then … whatever? we just ignore the issue and tell them to use a real token | 14:20 |
| xgerman | but Horizon should be more like press an Accept button | 14:20 |
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| rm_work | if we think a ton of people will come in through Horizon (which is my theory) then this may still be a problem | 14:20 |
| dougwig | is this a case of openstack deciding that something "should" be a certain way, telling people to do it that way, even though it's really used everywhere in an entirely different fashion, and is nowhere near ready for the "new and correct" way? | 14:20 |
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| samuelbercovici | rm_work: is there a way that the uses will just authorize lbaas service user access to the private info? | 14:21 |
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| balles | rm_work, ok make sense. | 14:21 |
| rm_work | dougwig: I thought so at first | 14:21 |
| rm_work | dougwig: but the Keystone guys actually showed me that in a lot of cases my plan will actually fail | 14:21 |
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| samuelbercovici | actualy since lbaas runs inside neutron, it may be the neutron service user | 14:21 |
| rm_work | dougwig: HEAT was the certain example | 14:21 |
| samuelbercovici | ? | 14:21 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: correct | 14:21 |
| rm_work | for now it is the Neutron service user | 14:21 |
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| rm_work | samuelbercovici: so, the way to just "authorize our user" on their side is for them to hit Keystone and create the Trust themselves (using a template we provide) which is the officially recommended approach | 14:22 |
| rm_work | but is what everyone is saying is an unacceptable user experience | 14:22 |
| rm_work | (I don't disagree that it is quite cumbersome for the user) | 14:22 |
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| dougwig | so this sounds like it'll be something that we need horizon solve (and which a lot of projects will need). | 14:22 |
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| xgerman | I am ok for it to becumbersome when using the CLI | 14:22 |
| rm_work | yes | 14:22 |
| blogan | say horizon uses a full privelaged token, and it makes setting up trusts simple for a user, wouldn't horizon need some way to know which service account to set a trust up with? | 14:23 |
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| rm_work | So, I don't know that this is something we have the knowledge to really answer right now, but I want people to be aware of what's going on | 14:23 |
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| rm_work | blogan: also yes, but we could code that in as part of our plugin maybe? | 14:23 |
| samuelbercovici | ok. so the user creates the cer, key and container and afther that, runs the "template...." whicg grants access to neutron services. did you talk with VPNaaS guys on this? | 14:23 |
| blogan | rm_work: actually sounds like an admin api type of operation | 14:23 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: not yet, I only got this far in the process of understanding this yesterday afternoon | 14:24 |
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| rm_work | blogan: erg. yeah | 14:24 |
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| rm_work | so, the *original* original plan was to just straight up have the Neutron service account be a "god account" | 14:24 |
| rm_work | and we could just read data willy-nilly | 14:25 |
| rm_work | but that's actually scary enough that i'd never want to see it in production | 14:25 |
| xgerman | and why did that fail? | 14:25 |
| blogan | rm_work: this is probably a bad idea, but what is stopping us from just reusing the token the user passes to lbaas and talking to barbican with that? other than the token expiring and we have no way to talk to barbican later | 14:25 |
| samuelbercovici | theoreticaly speaking, the LBaaS horizon module, may have a section used to upload certificates as part of the lb creation, in this case, it may be easier to implement this "authorization" part in there.... | 14:25 |
| rm_work | blogan: um… the thing you just said is the problem | 14:25 |
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| balles | rm_work, how is it today? Is neutron admin only admin for Neutron? | 14:25 |
| rm_work | balles: yes, I believe so | 14:25 |
| blogan | okay so thats the only problem | 14:25 |
| rm_work | and possibly on specific other services | 14:25 |
| rm_work | blogan: yes. | 14:26 |
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| rm_work | so the OTHER option is to go all the way back to one of the original alternatives, which is: hijack user token, read data from barbican, store data on the neutron-service-account | 14:26 |
| rm_work | (back in Barbican) | 14:27 |
| rm_work | the shadow-copy thing | 14:27 |
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| dougwig | that's a lot to digest at 8am. :) i assume you will be following up with the horizon guys and coming up with a plan? | 14:27 |
| rm_work | that would stop us from needed to ever retain access to the user's data | 14:27 |
| rm_work | dougwig: that's the idea | 14:27 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: this is worse. | 14:27 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: i agree | 14:27 |
| samuelbercovici | if we wanted to store such data in neutron, we would not be jumping through such hoops | 14:27 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: i mean, we'd be storing it in Barbican again | 14:28 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: just, using our service account | 14:28 |
| rm_work | but yeah, it's not ideal either | 14:28 |
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| xgerman | Having a PKI is exactly the reason we don't ewant copies | 14:28 |
| johnsom | I don't like the idea of duplicating the certs | 14:28 |
| xgerman | +1 | 14:28 |
| rm_work | I hope people realize I'm still not advocating this | 14:28 |
| rm_work | :P | 14:28 |
| rm_work | anyway | 14:28 |
| samuelbercovici | yep, i do not like this | 14:28 |
| blogan | quit advocating it | 14:29 |
| rm_work | I just wanted to get people on the same page | 14:29 |
| dougwig | ok, let's circle back to this next week (or the ML) when you get more info on the user experience | 14:29 |
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| rm_work | I don't think we can solve this with discussion right now | 14:29 |
| xgerman | nope | 14:29 |
| rm_work | but if anyone thinks of anything… let me know :) | 14:29 |
| rm_work | keep this tumbling in your subconscious :) | 14:30 |
| samuelbercovici | and to me it has the same problem as geting authorized to acces the data. if the attack vectos is by jeoperdizing the neutron service account, than both solution will have similar cosequences | 14:30 |
| balles | rm_work, I appreciate you bringing this up for discussions. Has this been on the ML already? I am behind on my emails | 14:30 |
| rm_work | balles: no, I did't get it "finished" so I never sent it out | 14:30 |
| rm_work | I may send our a brief summary of this | 14:30 |
| rm_work | today | 14:30 |
| rm_work | even though it's still not a finished proposal | 14:30 |
| vivek-ebay | >> I assume this is not specific to LBaaS and should be a common problem. What does Barbican guys suggest ? | 14:31 |
| balles | Ok I am going to ask Guang from our keystone teamto chime in on this thread. He had some ideas around Truts | 14:31 |
| rm_work | vivek-ebay: the only idea they had so far was mentioning the Postern project | 14:31 |
| rm_work | balles: ok, thanks | 14:31 |
| dougwig | let's move on, and continue this next week or on the ML. good stuff, rm_work | 14:31 |
| balles | vivek-ebay, I agree with you especially the other advanced services | 14:31 |
| rm_work | dougwig: yeah, didn't mean to take *half the meeting* :P | 14:31 |
| samuelbercovici | does babican has similar notion of also including the node from which the information is requested (same as ssh)? in this case, you can only get the information using neutron user but also only if it is from the neutron(s) api nodes | 14:31 |
| dougwig | rm_work: it's good, there wasn't anything else of substance on the agenda. :) | 14:32 |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: it might be possible to do this from their RBAC policy? MAYBE? But it is not a native concept | 14:32 |
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| dougwig | ok, and now for a less contentious topic... | 14:32 |
| dougwig | #topic Incubator update | 14:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubator update (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:32 | |
| rm_work | samuelbercovici: there is something coming down the pipe for more granularly scoped keystone trusts, but it isn't here yet | 14:33 |
| dougwig | mestery, anything new to report? | 14:33 |
| balles | samuelbercovici, In our deployment we have certs all over the place. I believe a lot of our security is added when we deploy the services as part of our cloud | 14:33 |
| balles | the same with username/password It is all encrypted | 14:33 |
| mestery | dougwig: Only that markmcclain and I hope to get it rolling this week again. We were focusing on FFE BPs, but the gate queue is now at 30+ hours so ... :( | 14:33 |
| balles | dougwig, I had the same question :-) I am assuming you mean around the incubator thingy | 14:34 |
| rm_work | mestery: do you guys operate on Valve Time? :P | 14:34 |
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| mestery | rm_work: Something like that I think ;) | 14:34 |
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| rm_work | (for reference: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time ) | 14:34 |
| rm_work | mestery: :P | 14:34 |
| blogan | its a combination of valve and blizzard time | 14:34 |
| TrevorV | lols at rm_work | 14:34 |
| samuelbercovici | i guess it was "Destiny" ;-) | 14:34 |
| rm_work | heh | 14:35 |
| mestery | Honestly, I apologize for how long this has all taken, we're doing our best here. | 14:35 |
| rm_work | mestery: yeah, all in good humor :) | 14:35 |
| balles | mestery, What's FFE? | 14:35 |
| mestery | Yesterday we spent a few hours looking at a huge spike in neutron full job failures | 14:35 |
| mestery | Which ended up being a nova patch | 14:35 |
| mestery | But the finger was pointed at neutron first :) | 14:35 |
| mestery | FFE == Feature Freeze Exception | 14:35 |
| rm_work | that's always fun <_< | 14:35 |
| mestery | BPs which got on are due by tomorrow | 14:35 |
| mestery | rm_work: ++ | 14:35 |
| dougwig | look at the link that opened the meeting for a list of rc1/ffe blueprints that need reviewer eyeballs. | 14:36 |
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| mestery | dougwig: ++ and thanks! | 14:36 |
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| dougwig | #topic Open Discussion | 14:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: neutron lbaas)" | 14:37 | |
| balles | mestery, it is clear to me that you guys need to delegate "dev-core" power to the incubated Neutron projects | 14:37 |
| balles | otherwise you will continue to be bottlenecks | 14:37 |
| dougwig | anything else to discuss today? | 14:37 |
| mestery | balles: :) | 14:37 |
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| jorgem | I think he agreed with you ;) | 14:38 |
| dougwig | there's been a long discussion from the nova team on the ML about that, and kyle has made a few appearances. it's worth reading. | 14:38 |
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| blogan | yep | 14:39 |
| balles | dougwig, thanks for the pointer. I will read it after the IRC is done | 14:39 |
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| dougwig | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/044872.html | 14:39 |
| samuelbercovici | on another matter: summit Paris talks. Are all the people patricipating in LBaaS v2 talk planning to attend? | 14:40 |
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| vivek-ebay | are voting results out ? | 14:40 |
| samuelbercovici | yes | 14:40 |
| blogan | samuelbercovici: as of now, yes, but could be subject to change | 14:40 |
| dougwig | samuelbercovici: yes | 14:40 |
| dougwig | vivek-ebay: emails were sent out with results | 14:40 |
| blogan | and its totally out of my control if it does cahnge | 14:40 |
| vivek-ebay | can we please summarize lbaas selections ? | 14:41 |
| dougwig | blogan: if you're not there, we will blame all warts on you and rackspace. | 14:41 |
| vivek-ebay | which topics got selected | 14:41 |
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| sbalukoff | samuelbercovici: I'll definitely be there. | 14:41 |
| balles | blogan, This is great news! you guys will be at the summit | 14:41 |
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| rm_work | balles: hopefully, yes, but we will see what the next month or so brings | 14:41 |
| samuelbercovici | #link https://openstacksummitnovember2014paris.sched.org/ | 14:41 |
| balles | The Octavia talk didn't get selected :-( | 14:41 |
| vivek-ebay | We at ebay missed submitting topics for talks due to internal firefight. We had some great stuff to showcase. | 14:42 |
| blogan | balles: not all of us but some of us, though some things have come up that lead me to believe all or most that were going may not be now, but I won't know until tomorrow probably | 14:42 |
| rm_work | vivek-ebay: :( | 14:42 |
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| balles | blogan, Crossing my fingers for you guys | 14:42 |
| rm_work | blogan: you think tomorrow? :P | 14:42 |
| blogan | balles: i would hav ebeen surprised if it did, no one knows what it is | 14:42 |
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| vivek-ebay | we got miss by few days. Requested exceptions from core...didn't got :( | 14:43 |
| blogan | rm_work: yes, through the grapevine | 14:43 |
| balles | blogan, :) The HP reviewers commented that ti was more a design session topic | 14:43 |
| rm_work | blogan / balles: yeah, it's sad no one knows what it is so it doesn't get voted on, so no talk, so no one knows what it is :P | 14:43 |
| sbalukoff | vivek-ebay: That's too bad, eh. | 14:43 |
| blogan | time to put that HP marketing power behind Octavia, super bowl commercials | 14:43 |
| samuelbercovici | vivek-ebay: is there still the notion of "flash talks"? | 14:44 |
| balles | Did we get more than one talk? Sam & co. 's LBaaS V2. Anything else | 14:44 |
| vivek-ebay | yes, 10 mins | 14:44 |
| rm_work | HP Hellion: now with the power of Octavia! *queue roman gods B footage* | 14:44 |
| vivek-ebay | not enough... | 14:44 |
| blogan | balles: i dont believe so | 14:44 |
| samuelbercovici | I also do: https://openstacksummitnovember2014paris.sched.org/event/2b85b682ccaf3a5961e463b61e2403f8#.VBG1TvmSzY8 | 14:44 |
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| blogan | ah interesting, ill attend that one if I do go | 14:45 |
| rm_work | If I go, I'll be doing a lightning talk on Barbican service integration… assuming it eventually works out :P | 14:46 |
| johnsom | rm_work That is funny | 14:46 |
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| blogan | rm_work: I have a feeling that talk would need more than 10 mins | 14:46 |
| samuelbercovici | rm_work: eventualy might weight a kilo | 14:46 |
| dougwig | anything else anyone wants to discuss? | 14:46 |
| rm_work | lol | 14:46 |
| xgerman | we need Octavia stickers and T-Shirts :-) | 14:47 |
| rm_work | xgerman: ah, yes | 14:47 |
| blogan | i would like to discuss...bears | 14:47 |
| rm_work | we can have a little Amphora as part of our logo | 14:47 |
| dougwig | blogan: black or grizzly? | 14:47 |
| * blogan vomits into an amphora | 14:47 | |
| VijayB_ | samuelbercovici: lol | 14:47 |
| rm_work | maybe an Amphora on a scale? :P | 14:47 |
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| xgerman | with bears to make blogan happy | 14:47 |
| blogan | if bears came along and smashed a room full of amphorae, that'd be great | 14:48 |
| rm_work | alright, discussion has sufficiently devolved ^_^ | 14:48 |
| blogan | a great marketing ploy as well | 14:48 |
| dougwig | i'm sensing an imminent endmeeting.... :) | 14:48 |
| sbalukoff | xgerman: Totally! | 14:48 |
| blogan | this is highly relevant | 14:48 |
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| * rm_work gets out his Photoshop hat | 14:48 | |
| blogan | end it dougwig | 14:48 |
| dougwig | #endmeeting | 14:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:48 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 11 14:48:55 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:48 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-09-11-14.00.html | 14:48 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-09-11-14.00.txt | 14:48 |
| sbalukoff | Heh! | 14:49 |
| dougwig | bye folks | 14:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_lbaas/2014/neutron_lbaas.2014-09-11-14.00.log.html | 14:49 |
| rm_work | lol yes, make the pain stop | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | Thanks, y'all! | 14:49 |
| blogan | dance puppet dance! | 14:49 |
| vivek-ebay | bye all | 14:49 |
| sbalukoff | (Yay, back to bed for me!) | 14:49 |
| xgerman | bye | 14:49 |
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| rm_work | sbalukoff: tempted :P but i am sufficiently awake now from so much typing T_T | 14:49 |
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| samuelbercovici | bye | 14:51 |
| sballe_ | bye | 14:51 |
| rm_work | o/ | 14:51 |
| TrevorV | o/\ | 14:51 |
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| eglynn | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 11 15:00:50 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglynn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:00 |
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| eglynn | hey folks, who is around for the ceilo weekly? | 15:01 |
| nealph | o/ | 15:01 |
| nsaje | o/ | 15:01 |
| llu-laptop | o/ | 15:01 |
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| eglynn | #topic Juno-3 status and FFEs | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno-3 status and FFEs (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:01 | |
| cdent | o/ | 15:01 |
| nsaje | people taking a rest after j-3 :) | 15:01 |
| eglynn | so we've made some progress on the FFEs :) | 15:01 |
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| sileht | o/ | 15:02 |
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| eglynn | nealph has for his pass-event-format landed with a bunch of +1s from the PaaS side of the house, nice work! :) | 15:02 |
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| nealph | eglynn: thx! | 15:02 |
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| idegtiarov | o/ | 15:03 |
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| eglynn | the main resource renormalization patch for bigger-data-sql is safely landed | 15:03 |
| eglynn | so the outstanding one there is the sql-a ORM->core switch | 15:03 |
| cdent | +1 | 15:04 |
| gordc | o/ | 15:04 |
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| nsaje | that's great news | 15:04 |
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| eglynn | cdent has been doing some detailed measurements of the performance benefits of the ORM switchout using rally | 15:04 |
| gordc | thanks to all those who've helped test out the performance patches. | 15:04 |
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| eglynn | gordc: agreed :) | 15:05 |
| cdent | the stack of variables involved in any performance test makes it hard to be absolutely sure about the details of the improvement, but its definitely an improvement | 15:05 |
| gordc | cdent: good to hear. | 15:06 |
| eglynn | cdent, gordc: I'm thinking we should declare victory on it sooner rather than later as the window of opportunity to land this may start closing soon | 15:06 |
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| cdent | I think that's fair and safe. | 15:06 |
| DinaBelova | o/ | 15:06 |
| gordc | eglynn: you mean the sqla-core patch or the tc gap requirement? | 15:07 |
| eglynn | ... so I think I'll go ahead and approve, and we can close out quantifying the performance gain in parallel | 15:07 |
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| gordc | eglynn: gotcha... i think that's safe. | 15:07 |
| eglynn | gordc: mainly the sqla-core patch in the short term | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | gordc: ... but in the longer term also the overall aggregated benefit of all the sql-a improvements made during Juno | 15:08 |
| gordc | eglynn: makes sense to me. | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | (as we're likely to have to make an end-of-cycle progress report to the TC) | 15:08 |
| eglynn | cool | 15:08 |
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| eglynn | the last outstanding FFE is ipmi-support | 15:09 |
| llu-laptop | sorry to shout out here, the ipmi patches https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/ceilometer+topic:bp/ipmi-support,n,z will appreciate more reviews | 15:09 |
| eglynn | still under active review | 15:09 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: yep, it feels like it getting close, gordc has added a bunch of feedback on the latter patch | 15:09 |
| gordc | llu-laptop: i gave it a quick look... i'm not really familiar enough to approve it. | 15:10 |
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| nsaje | llu: I'll get to it after the meeting as well | 15:10 |
| eglynn | cool, thanks folks | 15:10 |
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| llu-laptop | eglynn, gordc: thx. Sorry gzhai isn't around here now, will notify him tomorrow morning | 15:10 |
| llu-laptop | nsaje: thanks for the review | 15:10 |
| eglynn | llu-laptop: thank you! | 15:11 |
| eglynn | so other than those 3 FFEs, we've also got a bunch of bugs still targetted at RC1 | 15:11 |
| eglynn | https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/juno-rc1 | 15:11 |
| eglynn | I'm going to start bumping the non-critical ones that look like they won't make it | 15:12 |
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| llu-laptop | what's the status of bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1337761? | 15:12 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1337761 in ceilometer "significant performance degradation when ceilometer middleware for swift proxy uses" [High,In progress] | 15:12 |
| llu-laptop | it seems no patch for that? | 15:12 |
| eglynn | so if you've any further fixes up your sleeves, please get them proposed soon :) | 15:12 |
| eglynn | cdent: can you speak to that one? ^^^ | 15:12 |
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| gordc | i just got a patch in... 30hr merge time | 15:13 |
| eglynn | ouch! | 15:13 |
| cdent | there was a patch in progress on that and it stalled out. nsaje and DinaBelova gave lots of good feedback that the author didn't appear to respond to | 15:13 |
| gordc | i'm just happy i didn't need to recheck | 15:14 |
| eglynn | cdent: ok, it doesn't look like its likely to get traction by RC1 | 15:14 |
| cdent | no | 15:14 |
| eglynn | sounds like a candidate for bumping, sadly | 15:14 |
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| eglynn | just to clarify the endgame for RC1 ... | 15:14 |
| eglynn | I think I mis-spoke at this meeting last week | 15:14 |
| cdent | I think one of the reasons it stalled is because several people said "we should totally change that and not even have it in the ceilometer package" | 15:15 |
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| eglynn | until RC1, everything just needs to be landed on master, no need for backporting | 15:15 |
| eglynn | then the propose/juno branch will be cut, based off the juno-rc1 tag | 15:15 |
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| eglynn | from RC1 on, any patches for RCn (n>1) will need to be landed on master first then backported to proposed/juno | 15:16 |
| eglynn | meanwhile master is opened for kilo development | 15:16 |
| nsaje | good approach! | 15:16 |
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| llu-laptop | so no close window on master branch? | 15:16 |
| eglynn | so expect a lot of scrutiny from the rel mgr for any post-RC1 patches, definitely in our interest to get as much as possible landed for RC1 | 15:17 |
| cdent | is there a date for RC1 to be cut or is that at the whim of ttx | 15:17 |
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| nsaje | 25th of Sep if I'm not mistaken | 15:17 |
| nsaje | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 15:18 |
| cdent | thanks | 15:18 |
| ttx | cdent: no, it's when the RC1 buglist is empty | 15:18 |
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| eglynn | cdent: not a set date, it's decided by agreement with PTLs, likely to be EoW next week | 15:18 |
| cdent | thanks ttx :) | 15:18 |
| ttx | ideally in the second half of September, yes | 15:18 |
| nsaje | likely not if there's a 30hr merge time :) | 15:19 |
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| eglynn | is it my imagination, or has that merge time been slowing reducing since the juno-3 gate rush? | 15:20 |
| eglynn | ... me wonders if 30hrs was an outlier | 15:20 |
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| gordc | eglynn: you don't want to look at zuul | 15:20 |
| eglynn | gordc: ... it generally makes my eyes bleed :( | 15:20 |
| * cdent loves to look at zuul | 15:21 | |
| * eglynn hates the feeling of deflation when a nearly-complete verify is cancelled and all jobs for that patch are reset to "queued" | 15:22 | |
| eglynn | ... so close, and yet so far | 15:22 |
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| eglynn | OK, to sum up ... overall I think we're in relatively good shape on the FFE BPs, so we need to switch focus a bit to bugs over the coming week | 15:23 |
| eglynn | shall we move on? | 15:23 |
| eglynn | #topic TSDaaS/gnocchi status | 15:23 |
| cdent | so to clarify: master is not kilo until rc>=2? | 15:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TSDaaS/gnocchi status (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:23 | |
| eglynn | is the pasta-chef around, I wonder? | 15:24 |
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| eglynn | cdent: no, master == kilo from RC1 onwards | 15:25 |
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| cdent | thanks eglynn | 15:25 |
| sileht | I will start the work around the ceilometer dispatcher | 15:25 |
| gordc | eglynn: we have an internal meeting | 15:25 |
| eglynn | cdent: there way not even be an RC2 if we don't need it (RCn with n>=2 is on-demand) | 15:25 |
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| eglynn | gordc: cool enough, let's punt gnocchi so | 15:25 |
| eglynn | #topic Tempest status | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tempest status (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:26 | |
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| eglynn | this one may be short also, as DinaBelova is officially on vacation IIUC | 15:26 |
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| gordc | i think we're going to need to start reenabling tests post juno given state of gate. | 15:26 |
| eglynn | gordc: do you mean the nova notification test that was skipped? | 15:27 |
| eglynn | #link https://review.openstack.org/115212 | 15:27 |
| gordc | eglynn: yeah. seems like there's bigger issues... i'm not sure there's anything specifically wrong with our notification test though | 15:27 |
| gordc | doesn't seem like it based on memory/cpu usage of ceilometer services | 15:28 |
| eglynn | gordc: ... yeah, /me notes Dina's comment "all the gate slaves eating kind of 30-40% of RAM on them (unfortunately, ZooKeeper among them :))" | 15:28 |
| gordc | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045394.html | 15:28 |
| gordc | ^^ memory usage issues | 15:29 |
| eglynn | ... that ZK usage mentioned is orthogonal to our central agent scale out, right? | 15:29 |
| cdent | the devstack stuff I'm working on right now is related to "larger issues" of process not existing for random reasons, e.g. the notification agent being unavailable | 15:30 |
| cdent | not sure if that is related here | 15:30 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, there is the issue in the fact that on all the slaves ZK is installed and doing just noothing eating the RAM - in production it's ok, in the gate - not so much | 15:30 |
| cdent | but there's a huge slew of changes related to memory and cpu usage in devstack queued up | 15:30 |
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| DinaBelova | that's not the central agent HA issue or any thing like that - that's infra issue | 15:31 |
| gordc | i'm not sure how decisions are made to pull in dependencies... technically the central agent scale out isn't being enabled in gates | 15:31 |
| cdent | the zk is apparently leakage from other images and is supposed to be fixed soonish | 15:31 |
| DinaBelova | and ZK is not the only service there | 15:31 |
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| cdent | (according to discussion tuesday night) | 15:31 |
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| DinaBelova | gordc, ++ | 15:31 |
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| * DinaBelova found the laptop :) | 15:31 | |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: a-ha, so that ZK installation in the jenkins slaves would have pre-dated the ceilometer central agent's usage of ZK via tooz, right? | 15:32 |
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| eglynn | gordc: yeah that was my working assumption also | 15:32 |
| nsaje | eglynn: central agent tests don't really use neither tooz, nor ZK | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, for the gate we can even use memcached | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | not so reosurce eating thing in the gate | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | nsaje ++ | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | we're using tooz | 15:32 |
| DinaBelova | not the ZK directly | 15:32 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova, nsaje: cool, got it | 15:33 |
| nsaje | DinaBelova: I'm guessing coordination_url is empty in devstack (as it's the default), no? | 15:33 |
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| DinaBelova | nsaje, I'm 100% sure yes | 15:33 |
| jd__ | o/ | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | no coordination url set there for sure | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | jd__ ++ | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | oops | 15:33 |
| eglynn | nsaje: I guess the longer term goal would be to enable central agent scale out in the gate also? | 15:33 |
| DinaBelova | I meant hello :) | 15:33 |
| nsaje | eglynn: definitely | 15:34 |
| eglynn | nsaje: cool | 15:34 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, of course - but with memcached for the first time I guess | 15:34 |
| nsaje | eglynn: but we could easily use memcached | 15:34 |
| gordc | eglynn: +1, be good to have it enabled and verified. | 15:34 |
| eglynn | yeap, aggreed | 15:34 |
| gordc | nsaje: yeah memcached might be better... it works fine locally for me too. | 15:34 |
| nsaje | as we won't be doing functional testing with simulating agent crashes etc. in the gate | 15:34 |
| nsaje | so no worry about backend performance | 15:34 |
| DinaBelova | gordc, ZK works good as well :) it's just not the gating thing :) | 15:35 |
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| eglynn | nsaje: still if we're recommending tooz/zk in production, that's what we should have running in the gate also, right? | 15:35 |
| gordc | DinaBelova: agreed | 15:35 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, I propose in this case periodical jobs probably | 15:35 |
| eglynn | (even if we don't explicitly test the scale in/out) | 15:35 |
| jd__ | shouldn't be a problem to have ZK in the gate, it's already installed at least | 15:35 |
| nsaje | eglynn: ok, good point | 15:35 |
| jd__ | we use it for tooz testing | 15:35 |
| DinaBelova | jd__, well... that's actually the problem | 15:36 |
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| DinaBelova | jd__ - did you see RAM overusage thread? | 15:36 |
| jd__ | I saw it but didn't read it through | 15:36 |
| eglynn | jd__: see Dina's comment on https://review.openstack.org/115212 ... "on all the gate slaves eating kind of 30-40% of RAM on them (unfortunately, ZooKeeper among them :))" | 15:36 |
| DinaBelova | jd__, it turned out that ZK is one of the things installed to all the gate slaves that eat too much RAM | 15:36 |
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| jd__ | too bad | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | it was a big noise around it previous week | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | jd__ - well, this overusage is not only becasue of ZK | 15:37 |
| DinaBelova | but it's among of the 'bad' services | 15:37 |
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| eglynn | ok, so it sounds like the ZK issue is something we'll need to solve in order for the ceilo central agent to be run "realistically" in the gate | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | the problem is that currently it's installed to all the slaves no matter if we need it for the testing or not | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yes, indees | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | indeed* | 15:38 |
| DinaBelova | jd__, to learn more about that RAM overusage research you may ping infra folks | 15:38 |
| cdent | there's some work in progress to narrow the number of workers that a lot of services are using which will make room for things like zk | 15:38 |
| llu-laptop | DinaBelova: which openstack service is actually use ZK currently in gate? | 15:38 |
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| DinaBelova | llu-laptop, it is installed to test tooz | 15:39 |
| jd__ | nova might be | 15:39 |
| eglynn | service groups? | 15:39 |
| DinaBelova | cdent, yes, I hope so as well | 15:39 |
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| jd__ | eglynn: yes | 15:40 |
| gordc | cdent: just fyi, i enabled multi workers for the collector to verify multi-worker functionality works... but kept it at half # of core | 15:41 |
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| eglynn | ok, so we're not going to solve the problem here & now ... but was there a sense on that discussion that ZK is gonna ne removed from the mix by the infra folks? | 15:41 |
| * cdent nods at gordc | 15:42 | |
| eglynn | is gonna *be | 15:42 |
| cdent | eglynn: somebody was looking into it to "fix the leakage" | 15:42 |
| cdent | so that it was only there where it was needed | 15:42 |
| eglynn | ... i.e. if it's considered one of the 'bad' services | 15:42 |
| eglynn | cdent: a-ha, ok | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, it was the beginning of this discussion when I saw it... | 15:42 |
| DinaBelova | so I'm not sure about the result | 15:42 |
| eglynn | right-o, all good info ... seems like the discussion/investigation is still active | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | I guess cdent is closer to the truth here than I | 15:43 |
| cdent | I'm just reporting what I heard in os-qa, but there wasn't any timetable | 15:43 |
| DinaBelova | eglynn, yeah... because nobody wants to remove innocent package there :) | 15:43 |
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| eglynn | DinaBelova: yeah, that would be unjust :) | 15:44 |
| DinaBelova | cdent, I was lurking the infra channel (my irc client was ringing about words like ZK, etc.) but it was ~1am in my time zone that time so I just left it | 15:44 |
| cdent | Yeah, seems like all the action for those guys in the late or early hours | 15:45 |
| eglynn | yeap, unfortunate timing from the European perspective | 15:45 |
| cdent | since jd__ is back can we get a gnocchi update before we run out? | 15:45 |
| eglynn | jd__: BTW we punted on the gnocchi topic earlier, do you want to circle back to that? | 15:46 |
| eglynn | cdent: snap! :) | 15:46 |
| cdent | jinx | 15:46 |
| jd__ | sure I don't have much to say though | 15:46 |
| jd__ | I've resumed my work on the archive policy today | 15:46 |
| jd__ | and I'm planning to continue and get this merged ASAP | 15:46 |
| jd__ | eglynn: I'll need you to review on that | 15:46 |
| jd__ | I need to also continue to discuss with you about InfluxDB | 15:46 |
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| eglynn | jd__: I'll take another look at those patches before EoD today | 15:46 |
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| jd__ | the collector dispatcher job should be handled by sileht, finger crossed :) | 15:47 |
| jd__ | we also need to check some things about the result fetch part | 15:47 |
| jd__ | I think there's some thing wrong with how we merge data from different timeseries | 15:47 |
| jd__ | (we already discussed that but didn't make any change) | 15:47 |
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| jd__ | and once that's done we should be pretty good towards having a Juno release | 15:48 |
| jd__ | (all what I just said I mean :) | 15:48 |
| eglynn | sileht: can you sync up with ildikov on that dispatcher work | 15:48 |
| eglynn | ? | 15:48 |
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| eglynn | jd__: "the result fetch part" is on the measurements get from multiple entities or? | 15:49 |
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| jd__ | nop, it's about that which I'd call aggregation | 15:50 |
| jd__ | it's about if we have results spanned over multiple archives for an entity (with different granularity) the current code merges them | 15:50 |
| jd__ | and the result are kinda "weird" in the end | 15:50 |
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| eglynn | jd__: a-ha, got it, thanks | 15:50 |
| jd__ | there's no technical challenge, just a correct design to pick | 15:50 |
| jd__ | and change the code to reflect what we think is right | 15:51 |
| jd__ | I'll probably run a mail thread for that when I get to it | 15:51 |
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| DinaBelova | sileht, also idegtiarov wanted to work on the dispatcher - he said about that ~2week ago on the meeting - he was on the vacation last week, so the talk was about to start work on it this one or the next | 15:51 |
| jd__ | (when I don't know I ask :-) | 15:51 |
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| eglynn | jd__: yeah, a thread on that would be good, thanks! | 15:51 |
| eglynn | DinaBelova: yep, so sileht, idegtiarov & ildikov will need to coordinate their efforts on that to avoid any duplication of effort | 15:53 |
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| DinaBelova | eglynn, yeah, +1 | 15:53 |
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| eglynn | #topic open discussion | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:54 | |
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| eglynn | jd__ has nominated two new ceilometer cores in the past couple days :) | 15:55 |
| eglynn | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045537.html | 15:55 |
| eglynn | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045734.html | 15:55 |
| vrovachev | applause :) | 15:55 |
| eglynn | vrovachev: indeed :) | 15:56 |
| cdent | yeah, +1 on both of those | 15:56 |
| nsaje | thanks for the nomination jd__ ! | 15:56 |
| cdent | do I get a vote or am I only able to unofficially say "woot!"? | 15:56 |
| eglynn | if you haven't done so yet, please consider chiming in on the ML by Monday next | 15:56 |
| eglynn | cdent: all w00ts will be appreciated I'm sure :) | 15:57 |
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| cdent | excellent | 15:57 |
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| eglynn | anyone go anything else they'd like to chat about? | 15:58 |
| cdent | nope | 15:58 |
| eglynn | right-o, let's call this a wrap so | 15:58 |
| eglynn | ... thanks all for a productive meeting! :) | 15:59 |
| eglynn | #endmeeting ceilometer | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:59 | |
| nsaje | see you guys! | 15:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 11 15:59:10 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-09-11-15.00.html | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-09-11-15.00.txt | 15:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2014/ceilometer.2014-09-11-15.00.log.html | 15:59 |
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| sileht | eglynn, sure | 16:11 |
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| mtreinish | #startmeeting qa | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 11 17:00:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mtreinish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 17:00 |
| mtreinish | hi, who's here today? | 17:01 |
| mkoderer | \o/ | 17:01 |
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| mlavalle | hi | 17:01 |
| coolsvap | hello | 17:01 |
| jlanoux | hi | 17:01 |
| mtreinish | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/QATeamMeeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_September_11th_2014_.281700_UTC.29 | 17:01 |
| dmorita | o/ | 17:01 |
| mtreinish | ^^^ Today's agenda | 17:01 |
| andreaf | o/ | 17:01 |
| mtreinish | ok, let's get started I'm sure more people will trickle in later | 17:02 |
| mtreinish | #topic Summit topic brainstorming (mtreinish) | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit topic brainstorming (mtreinish) (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:02 | |
| mtreinish | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-qa-summit-topics | 17:02 |
| mtreinish | I just wanted to put up another reminder about this etherpad in case someone missed it | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | if anyone has a topic they'd like to discuss at summit please add it there | 17:02 |
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| mtreinish | when we get closer to summit I expect we'll have a good portion of a meeting or 2 dedicated to sorting through and prioritizing what's listed there | 17:03 |
| mkoderer | do we already know how many slot we have? | 17:03 |
| mtreinish | mkoderer: not yet | 17:03 |
| mkoderer | k | 17:03 |
| mtreinish | also the format will probably be different with the last day being kinda of like a midcycle | 17:04 |
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| dkranz | o/ | 17:04 |
| mtreinish | so even if a topic doesn't get a slot we can discuss it during the free form part | 17:04 |
| mtreinish | which is why I wanted to give everyone more time so we've got a nice long list :) | 17:04 |
| andreaf | I've seen the new topic from dmorita - I hope the work I did on auth framework in tempest will help, but it would be great to discuss it and collect more input | 17:04 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: yeah that might fall into the tempest-lib discussion too | 17:05 |
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| mtreinish | because it's really about stabilizing the auth interface | 17:05 |
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| mtreinish | anyway does anyone have anything else to bring up about this topic? | 17:06 |
| mtreinish | otherwise let's move on | 17:06 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Specs Review | 17:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Specs Review (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:06 | |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Results of bug day? | 17:07 |
| mtreinish | does anyone have any open specs reviews that they'd like to get eyes on | 17:07 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: heh, that's a spec? | 17:07 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: No, it was before on the agenda. But we can wait. | 17:07 |
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| mtreinish | dkranz: oops, forgot to refresh before the meeting | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | stale page | 17:08 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: np :) | 17:08 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: we'll do that topic next | 17:08 |
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| mtreinish | if no one has an open spec to bring up (which isn't surprising given our place in the cycle) let's move on | 17:09 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: so the only spec I have is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/118352/ I just uploaded a new patchset | 17:09 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Don't seem to be other active specs now | 17:09 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: yeah, I haven't looked at the lastest rev, but it can probable be fast pathed in today or tomorrow | 17:09 |
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| mtreinish | oh I guess the only other thing is to review dhellmann's rss patches | 17:09 |
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| mtreinish | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/qa-specs+branch:master+topic:rss-feed,n,z | 17:10 |
| mtreinish | should be simple enough to review | 17:10 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Results of Bug Day | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Results of Bug Day (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:10 | |
| mtreinish | dkranz: ok you're up | 17:10 |
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| dkranz | There was not that much participation in bug day | 17:11 |
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| dkranz | We still have 75 New | 17:11 |
| dkranz | There were a lot of triage issues with logs no longer being available | 17:11 |
| dkranz | I think we need to triage in real time and proposed a weekly rotation | 17:12 |
| jlanoux | is there any requirements to triage? | 17:12 |
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| dkranz | jlanoux: not really | 17:12 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: well that happens if the logs are old enough. I don't think we can even keep 6 months anymore | 17:12 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: right | 17:12 |
| jlanoux | dkranz: ok, so non-core can do it? | 17:12 |
| mtreinish | jlanoux: I think there is a tempest bug group in lp, but joining it should be open | 17:12 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: and we only keep logstash for 9 days | 17:13 |
| jlanoux | mtreinish: ok | 17:13 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: one thing I've been thinking about doing is having someone who watches the bug list and keeps on top of triage | 17:13 |
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| mtreinish | some of the other teams have been doing this and it's working well | 17:14 |
| mkoderer | should we have a weekly rotation.. so every week somebody that is responsible for bugs comming in? | 17:14 |
| dkranz | mkoderer: that is what I proposed | 17:14 |
| mkoderer | dkranz: ok... fine for me | 17:14 |
| jlanoux | dkranz: mkoderer +1 | 17:15 |
| dkranz | I'm not sure we will find a volunteer to do it always | 17:15 |
| coolsvap | mtreinish, drankis mkoderer I am in for a week in a month +1 | 17:15 |
| mtreinish | I asked gmann ealier and he said he'd be willing to do it | 17:15 |
| mtreinish | but sure we can give a weekly rotation a try | 17:15 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: great. even better. | 17:15 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: It could work either way as long as there is a volunteer. | 17:16 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: The question is whether we consider it to be a Core reviewer task or not | 17:16 |
| coolsvap | mtreinish, i think we can have a group of 3-4 people and a volunteer who can always delegate to someone if he's busy/unavailable at certain periond | 17:16 |
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| dkranz | Yes, a volunteer is a degenerate case of rotation | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: I think doing at least some bug triage is a responsibility for a core reviewer | 17:17 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: that is why I suggested rotation | 17:17 |
| mtreinish | yeah I'm thinking if gmann is willing to watch the list and track things we do that | 17:18 |
| mtreinish | and still have a weekly rotation of people doing triage | 17:18 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: because I doubt any core reviewer wil volunteer full-time | 17:18 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: ok, that is fine. I will post an etherpad with weeks/dates and send something out to the list | 17:18 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: ok cool, and talk to gmann about it too | 17:19 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: so what exactly will gmann do that you discussed? | 17:19 |
| dkranz | as a volunteer? | 17:19 |
| mtreinish | #action dkranz to work on setting up a weekly bug triage rotation | 17:19 |
| mtreinish | mostly keep on top of tracking bug stats, and bringing bugs to attention of people if they need it | 17:20 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: ok, so not really triage | 17:20 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: that's fine | 17:20 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: he can poke people who signed up for a week but are not active enough :) | 17:20 |
| mtreinish | well triage would be part of it, but it was more of an administrative thing | 17:21 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: yep :) | 17:21 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: ok | 17:21 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: I think that's it for that topic | 17:21 |
| mtreinish | ok then let's move on | 17:21 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: before you go to bp | 17:21 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, forgot to mention https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94741/ | 17:21 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, ssh auth spec | 17:21 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: heh, well that falls to me :) | 17:22 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, it would be good to either get more feedback on it or approve it | 17:22 |
| mtreinish | I'll take a look at it after the other one | 17:22 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, thanks | 17:22 |
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| mtreinish | I am thinking we might need to revise the spec process a bit in kilo, but I'll save that discussion for later | 17:22 |
| mtreinish | ok let's move on | 17:22 |
| mtreinish | #topic Blueprints | 17:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:22 | |
| mkoderer | I'd like to give an update regarding negative testing | 17:23 |
| mtreinish | mkoderer: ok | 17:23 |
| dkranz | dpaterson could not be here but said he is going to push another patch for the resource cleanup | 17:23 |
| mkoderer | mtreinish: we can close the schema unification bp | 17:23 |
| dkranz | today | 17:23 |
| mtreinish | mkoderer: ok cool, I'll do that now | 17:23 |
| mkoderer | but we have some issues with the exiting schemas | 17:24 |
| mkoderer | we never acutually verfied that there are working | 17:24 |
| mkoderer | so 2 of 4 are broken :( | 17:24 |
| mtreinish | nice... | 17:24 |
| mkoderer | I tried to fix it with auto validation | 17:25 |
| mkoderer | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120033/ | 17:25 |
| mkoderer | and I will fix the broken ones | 17:25 |
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| mtreinish | mkoderer: ok cool. is the validation going to run as a unit test? | 17:26 |
| mkoderer | mtreinish: no because it has to send a request to a real server | 17:26 |
| mtreinish | ah, ok | 17:26 |
| mtreinish | yeah I see that now | 17:26 |
| mkoderer | mtreinish: so it's a gate test | 17:26 |
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| mkoderer | ah and I have to update the documentation again :) | 17:27 |
| mkoderer | k that's it from the negative testing front | 17:27 |
| mtreinish | ok thanks | 17:27 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, updates from my side | 17:27 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: ok | 17:27 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, the multi-auth one, I'm waiting on scenario migration and test accounts to be through as they'll make my life easier then I'll resume work there | 17:28 |
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| mtreinish | ok that makes sense | 17:28 |
| mtreinish | I'll defer that to kilo then, because it probably can't be done until then | 17:29 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: yes | 17:29 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish, test-accounts is progressing well there is a failure on the large opts test which I need to debug else it's almost done | 17:29 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish: and we support the current configuration as well for backward compatibility so the periodic job will keep running | 17:30 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: is that job also in the experimental pipeline? | 17:30 |
| mtreinish | because I think it'll be good to test it before we land that change | 17:30 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, uhm I have to check | 17:31 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: no big deal if it's not, it's easy enough to add | 17:31 |
| mtreinish | I'd just like to avoid a big surprise there when we land it | 17:31 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, ok I'll check and add it in case it's not there | 17:32 |
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| mtreinish | andreaf: ok is there anything else? | 17:33 |
| andreaf | mtreinish: on the scenario migration, as masayukig is not here, we also have good progress (MERGED:9, APPROVED:3, SUBMITTED:4, NOT YET:2) | 17:33 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, plus the final cleanup of things | 17:34 |
| mtreinish | cool, yeah that's moving a long | 17:34 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish, there's a problem with this kind of migration and copy of code in that if the original code is updated in the meantime the change could be lost if we don't recheck on cleanup | 17:34 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, so I think we'll need careful review on cleanup again | 17:35 |
| mtreinish | yeah, that's a good point | 17:35 |
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| andreaf | mtreinish, all from me | 17:35 |
| mtreinish | ok | 17:35 |
| mtreinish | does anyone else have an update on an open bp | 17:36 |
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| mtreinish | ok then I'll bring up tempest-lib now | 17:37 |
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| mtreinish | #topic tempest-lib first release | 17:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "tempest-lib first release (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:37 | |
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| mtreinish | last week we created the openstack/tempest-lib repo | 17:37 |
| mtreinish | the first release was going to be just the cli testing framework | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | I've got 3 patches up for review at: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/tempest-lib,n,z | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | which clean a few things up | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | and after that I think we're ready for the first push to pypi | 17:38 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: cool. I have a question about the next step. | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | that will allow us to switch tempest over to use the lib for cli tests | 17:38 |
| mtreinish | and then start the migration of those tests into the clients | 17:39 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: sure | 17:39 |
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| mtreinish | I wanted to make sure everyone was comfortable with the interface after those 3 patches | 17:39 |
| dkranz | The real bang-for-the buck here will be moving the tempest service base classes and rest clients so can be used by project func tests | 17:39 |
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| dkranz | We already identified the "_, body = ..." issue with a proposed solution | 17:40 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: well the rest client is next on the list for migration | 17:40 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: IMO, we should fix the _, body issue first | 17:40 |
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| mtreinish | dkranz: would we handle that in the rest client or the service clients though? | 17:40 |
| dkranz | It is now an ugly scar | 17:40 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: Sorry, I thought you were including the service clients | 17:41 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: This is definitely handled in the service clients | 17:41 |
| mtreinish | maybe, but the first step is the rest client and the required auth and cred stuff | 17:41 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: right | 17:41 |
| mtreinish | because that's an easy win | 17:41 |
| dkranz | sure | 17:41 |
| mtreinish | we can sit on the service clients for a bit longer and fix the warts first | 17:42 |
| andreaf | dkranz, mtreinish that brings up a general question I have about how we proceed for the migration - we stop accepting patches as soon as a piece of code is proposed for migration to tempest-lib? | 17:42 |
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| dkranz | mtreinish: agreed, | 17:42 |
| andreaf | andreaf, what about all the in-flight patches that affect rest-client? they will need to be split | 17:42 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: yeah, once something is migrated we should ideally tell them to move over to the lib | 17:42 |
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| dkranz | I think we need to specify a cut-off date | 17:43 |
| dkranz | ANd make sure we review patches in flight before then | 17:43 |
| mtreinish | andreaf: just rebase them on the lib, the only thing that should be different is the path | 17:43 |
| andreaf | mtreinish, perhaps we should keep an etherpard to track migration so people now what to expect / and how to review | 17:43 |
| dkranz | and reject them after | 17:43 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: yeah that's a good idea | 17:43 |
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| mtreinish | anyway, we've got a bunch of topics left still | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | so we can discuss this in -qa after the meeting | 17:44 |
| andreaf | ok | 17:44 |
| mtreinish | so let's move on | 17:44 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Devstack | 17:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Devstack (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:44 | |
| mtreinish | dtroyer: around? | 17:44 |
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| mtreinish | well if dtroyer shows up we can come back to devstack | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | unless anyone else has something to discuss about devstack | 17:46 |
| mtreinish | ok, then let's move on | 17:46 |
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| mtreinish | #topic Grenade | 17:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Grenade (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:47 | |
| mtreinish | jogo, sdague: any updates on grenade this week? | 17:47 |
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| mtreinish | ok, does anyone else have anything to discuss about grenade then? | 17:48 |
| * mtreinish wonders if there is a correlation between projects in bash and meeting topics... | 17:48 | |
| jogo | mtreinish: no updates on my end | 17:49 |
| mtreinish | jogo: ok | 17:49 |
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| mtreinish | ok let's move on | 17:49 |
| mtreinish | #topic Critical Reviews | 17:49 |
| jogo | mtreinish: oh we did land the ironic sidways upgrade stuff | 17:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:49 | |
| mtreinish | #undo | 17:49 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x3114110> | 17:49 |
| mtreinish | jogo: ok, cool | 17:49 |
| mtreinish | that's the bit adam_g was working on to do a juno bm -> juno ironic migration | 17:50 |
| mtreinish | jogo: will that logic also work for a n-net -> neutron migration when the time comes? | 17:50 |
| jogo | mtreinish: yup we expect to have to do a similar thing for nova-network -> neutron | 17:50 |
| mtreinish | cool | 17:50 |
| mtreinish | markmcclain: ^^^ just a heads up | 17:50 |
| mtreinish | ok if there's nothing else on grenade we can move on | 17:51 |
| mtreinish | #topic Critical Reviews | 17:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical Reviews (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:51 | |
| mtreinish | ok, does anyone have a review they'd like to get eyes on | 17:51 |
| dmorita | I have one. | 17:52 |
| dmorita | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117193/ | 17:52 |
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| dmorita | As i wrote in agenda, I am working on moving checker of response code to service clients | 17:52 |
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| dmorita | for Swift | 17:52 |
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| mtreinish | dmorita: ok, yeah I see the notes from the agenda | 17:53 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: This is the same old issue | 17:53 |
| mtreinish | that discussion came up before, the decision we reached is that swift is the exception to that stability rule | 17:53 |
| dmorita | The problem is which idea to choose | 17:53 |
| mtreinish | because it predates it | 17:53 |
| dkranz | right | 17:53 |
| notmyname | hi | 17:53 |
| dmorita | hi, notmyname | 17:53 |
| notmyname | no, I don't agree that we are changing any stability rules | 17:54 |
| notmyname | we aren't changing any response codes with this patch | 17:54 |
| mtreinish | it's why we define the valid success_codes in rest client | 17:54 |
| dkranz | notmyname: no one said we were | 17:54 |
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| mtreinish | notmyname, dmorita: I'll chime in on that review later today, assuming the code is good I'll give it a +A | 17:55 |
| notmyname | ok, so what's the status on it? what's the path forward | 17:55 |
| dkranz | notmyname: I gave my +2 and I hope it will be approved as is. | 17:55 |
| notmyname | also note https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120622/ | 17:55 |
| mtreinish | notmyname: it was just oomichi forgot the discussion from last year on this topic | 17:56 |
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| dkranz | right | 17:56 |
| notmyname | oh, I didn't know it was a previous conversation | 17:56 |
| dkranz | notmyname: yes, you and I had it :) | 17:56 |
| notmyname | heh, ok | 17:56 |
| dkranz | among others | 17:56 |
| notmyname | anyway, I wanted to be clear that we're not looking for API instability or changing things out from under clients | 17:56 |
| notmyname | I think I can say with integrity that swift is pretty good at api stability | 17:57 |
| dkranz | notmyname: I know, it is just that swift's definition is different the others but we are accepting that | 17:57 |
| notmyname | but at the same time, it is very much our intention that swift clients should be looking at response code classes | 17:57 |
| dmorita | Yes. i think so too. but double check is necessary IMHO | 17:57 |
| dkranz | of course | 17:57 |
| mtreinish | ok, with ~2min left, does anyone else have any other reviews to bring up that could use extra eyes | 17:58 |
| coolsvap | mtreinish, I would like to highlight the fact that XenServer CI -1 might be affecting code reviews | 17:58 |
| mtreinish | coolsvap: as in we're breaking xenserver ci | 17:58 |
| mtreinish | or that people aren't looking at reviews because of a -1 from xenserver ci? | 17:58 |
| coolsvap | mtreinish, i think that way | 17:59 |
| mtreinish | coolsvap: which way? | 17:59 |
| coolsvap | since the Verified column is -1 even though jenkins is +1 | 17:59 |
| mtreinish | oh, ok | 17:59 |
| dkranz | Yes, I had trouble with this as well | 17:59 |
| mtreinish | yeah that's something to just keep an eye out for | 17:59 |
| mtreinish | xenserver ci might have a false negative just like jenkins | 18:00 |
| dkranz | mtreinish: IMO, it is a bug that the high-level view shows -1 if jenkins says +1 | 18:00 |
| clarkb | note you can server with label:verified>=1,jenkins | 18:00 |
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| clarkb | and get what jenkins +'d | 18:00 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: well unless we broke something for the non-jenkins env | 18:00 |
| mtreinish | like a hardcoded libvirt assumption in a test | 18:00 |
| dkranz | clarkb: I think the issue is with the review dashboard that sdague provided | 18:00 |
| mtreinish | clarkb: cool thanks | 18:00 |
| dkranz | of course we should not ignore the -1 | 18:01 |
| mtreinish | dkranz: you can update that, it's just a repo | 18:01 |
| mtreinish | anyway we're at time | 18:01 |
| mtreinish | thanks everyone | 18:01 |
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| mtreinish | #endmeeting | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 11 18:01:32 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-09-11-17.00.html | 18:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-09-11-17.00.txt | 18:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2014/qa.2014-09-11-17.00.log.html | 18:01 |
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| coolsvap | clarkb, I saw your discussion with yfried just wanted to update here so that people should not just look at -1 and use query :) | 18:01 |
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| mikal | le ping: mikal tjones cburgess jgrimm adrian_otto mzoeller funzo mjturek jcook ekhugen | 21:00 |
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| jogo | o/ | 21:00 |
| tjones | hi | 21:00 |
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| mikal | Looking at the agenda this might be a short one | 21:00 |
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| tjones | :-D | 21:00 |
| beagles | `o | 21:01 |
| sdague | o/ | 21:01 |
| alex_xu | o/ | 21:01 |
| n0ano | o/ | 21:01 |
| mikal | #startmeeting nova | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Sep 11 21:01:47 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mikal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova' | 21:01 |
| melwitt | o/ | 21:01 |
| mikal | Well hello | 21:02 |
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| dansmith | quick would be awesome | 21:02 |
| mikal | The agenda as always is at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 21:02 |
| * mriedem1 sneaks in late | 21:02 | |
| alaski | o/ | 21:02 |
| mikal | #topic Feature freeze exceptions | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Feature freeze exceptions (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:02 | |
| mikal | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-nova-approved-ffes | 21:02 |
| mikal | We still have a few inflight | 21:02 |
| mikal | The deadline for them to _enter_ the gate being midnight Friday this week | 21:02 |
| dansmith | so | 21:02 |
| dansmith | we just had a thing | 21:02 |
| dansmith | that kicked out at least one | 21:03 |
| mikal | Looking at the list, I think server group quotas is the most off the rails of the four left | 21:03 |
| mikal | dansmith: as in verification failed? | 21:03 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: no gate reset | 21:03 |
| dansmith | mikal: as in, 100% of unit tests were failing | 21:03 |
| PhilD | Codes's there - but it needs a tempest chaneg which is in the gate. Going to just be a race against the gate at ths point | 21:03 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: bad sqla-migrate release broke unit tests, had to be promoted to top | 21:04 |
| mriedem1 | which reset the gate | 21:04 |
| mikal | mriedem1: ahhh ok | 21:04 |
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| dansmith | well, and SRIOV got kicked because it "failed" | 21:04 |
| mikal | I wouldn't panic yet | 21:04 |
| dansmith | because of unit tests | 21:04 |
| mikal | If things are approved and we're just fighting the gate then we can work through that | 21:04 |
| mikal | Let's go through these four real quick | 21:04 |
| mikal | vmware refactor | 21:04 |
| mikal | There are two minor patches left? | 21:05 |
| mriedem1 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100927 | 21:05 |
| mikal | One approved and one not | 21:05 |
| PhilD | The tempest change needed for sg quotas has been in the gate for 21hrs. Once that merges I'm expecting the nova changes to verify - | 21:05 |
| mriedem1 | that's the last one it looks like | 21:05 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/119696/ is approved but not merged as well | 21:05 |
| mriedem1 | the latter sounds like cleanup, not functional | 21:05 |
| mikal | But yeah, I think vmware refactor is basically done except for that one | 21:05 |
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| mriedem1 | yup | 21:05 |
| tjones | hurrah! | 21:06 |
| mriedem1 | it's not tied to the bp either | 21:06 |
| mriedem1 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100927 that is | 21:06 |
| mikal | mriedem1: oh, as in we might just do that last one during stablisation anyways? | 21:06 |
| mikal | Ahhh, well spotted | 21:06 |
| mikal | I had trusted the etherpad list | 21:06 |
| mikal | Ok | 21:06 |
| mikal | So, vmware refactor is safe I'd say | 21:06 |
| mikal | virt-numa-driver-placement then | 21:07 |
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| mikal | Two there need approval | 21:07 |
| dansmith | mikal: fully in the gate, I think | 21:07 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115381/ | 21:07 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115007/ | 21:07 |
| dansmith | oh, thought jaypipes had done that one already | 21:08 |
| mikal | So, it would be cool if someone could be the second +2 on those todayish | 21:08 |
| jaypipes | I will. | 21:08 |
| dansmith | jaypipes: was going to I think he prolly just got distracted | 21:08 |
| dansmith | yeah | 21:08 |
| jaypipes | I thought I already had... | 21:08 |
| mikal | I will take a look at them after the meeting unless someone beats me to it | 21:08 |
| mikal | Cool, so virt-numa is safe then too | 21:08 |
| jaypipes | mikal: nah, I'm on it. | 21:08 |
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| mikal | jaypipes: ta | 21:09 |
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| mikal | server group quotas | 21:09 |
| mikal | PhilD: its your time to shine | 21:09 |
| mikal | We're waiting on the tempest change? | 21:09 |
| PhilD | First patch is in the gate | 21:09 |
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| PhilD | second part is +2'd but needs the tempest change | 21:09 |
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| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116079/ needs rescue though? | 21:10 |
| PhilD | third part has been reviewd OK but was missign v2.1 work. That's there now - waitign for Chris and Ken'ichi to come on lien and do a final pass | 21:10 |
| mikal | Ahhh, ok | 21:10 |
| mikal | So you think you're covered once those guys wake up? | 21:10 |
| PhilD | Needs Chris and Ken'icih to re-review it yes, btu the changs is jist to 2,1 | 21:10 |
| mikal | Or do you want to ask if anyone else can review as well? | 21:10 |
| PhilD | Yep, I think so | 21:10 |
| mikal | Cool | 21:10 |
| PhilD | More eyes are always welcome | 21:10 |
| mikal | So, server groups is mostly safe then | 21:10 |
| mikal | SRIOV is the last one | 21:11 |
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| dansmith | SRIOV was fully in the gate earlier | 21:11 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/pci-passthrough-sriov,n,z is the correc tlist for this one, right? | 21:11 |
| dansmith | after a check run of the base one, it should all pop back in | 21:11 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120675/ needs re-approval? | 21:11 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120423/ depends on an outdated dependancy? | 21:12 |
| dansmith | mikal: that one is not part of the original thing | 21:12 |
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| mikal | Ahhh, ok | 21:12 |
| dansmith | mikal: something baoli and I are adding on top for more testing | 21:12 |
| mikal | Its in the gerrit list is all | 21:12 |
| dansmith | yep | 21:12 |
| mikal | Ok, cool | 21:12 |
| mikal | Can you turn the etherpad list into the canonical list of reviews you need to merge for the bp to be marked completed? | 21:12 |
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| mikal | That will help me know when to mark it done | 21:12 |
| dansmith | okay | 21:13 |
| sdague | so, how possibly destabalizing do we think any of these ffes could be? | 21:13 |
| mikal | Well, we approved them all | 21:13 |
| mikal | So in theory they shouldn't be too bad | 21:13 |
| sdague | because back of the envelope... these are probably not really landing until middle of next week if "in gate by friday" is the critera | 21:13 |
| PhilD | The quota change is pretty well contained, so its scope for mayhem is limited | 21:13 |
| mikal | Our gate load should be pretty light, I guess that depends on how wild other teams are going | 21:14 |
| sdague | yeh, vmware and quotas feel pretty off in their corner | 21:14 |
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| mikal | SRIOV sounds well tested | 21:14 |
| mikal | i.e. someone has actually deployed it to test, right Dan? | 21:14 |
| PhilD | Numa and SRIOV look like they have a much bigger surface | 21:14 |
| sdague | yeh, my bigger concern is the fact that we went from 1 in 10 tests failing to 1 in 2 | 21:14 |
| sdague | during FFE | 21:14 |
| sdague | for all of openstack | 21:14 |
| mikal | Herm | 21:14 |
| dansmith | mikal: yeah, it *actually* works :) | 21:14 |
| mikal | That's not good | 21:14 |
| sdague | that's why there is a 30 hr backup | 21:14 |
| sdague | which was a 26 hr backup this morning | 21:15 |
| baoli | mikal, it's been tested on cisco's vmfex and mlnx's | 21:15 |
| mikal | sdague: do we know what bit is less stable now? | 21:15 |
| sdague | mikal: no... | 21:15 |
| jogo | another way to look at this is: on our record for merges to openstack/openstack in a single day is something like 140 | 21:15 |
| jogo | yesterday we merged 38 | 21:15 |
| sdague | yeh, right now we should be merging 120 - 150 a day | 21:15 |
| sdague | given the in flow | 21:15 |
| sdague | so I get everyone wants their feature in | 21:15 |
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| jogo | mikal: everything is pretty bad right now | 21:16 |
| mikal | Looking at the calendar, we cut rc1 on 25 September (ish) | 21:16 |
| PhilD | If someone coudl keep an eye on the tempest change https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120395/ and re-vreify the other two Nova changes if/when it lands overnight (my time) that would help me | 21:16 |
| sdague | but ... the trade off with this much energy still on features at this point in the game, seems odd | 21:16 |
| mikal | Which is 14 days away | 21:16 |
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| jogo | horizon, neutron, nova, mordred, glance | 21:17 |
| mikal | mordred is unreliable? | 21:17 |
| mikal | sdague: I agree we need to move past this to really getting stabilization happening | 21:17 |
| sdague | he did push sqlalchemy-migrate package which broke all our unit tests | 21:17 |
| jogo | mikal: yup https://review.openstack.org/gitweb?p=openstack/nova.git;a=commitdiff;h=9c2d6f21854bc79f03095163b8133a9fec68f9f2 | 21:17 |
| mikal | Oh, nice | 21:17 |
| sdague | well, the point is, we're not going to be able to start what we'd normally consider stabalization until the gate is under control | 21:18 |
| sdague | and that's probably 10 - 14 days solid effort | 21:18 |
| jogo | what about a hard deadline for things by your Monday mikal | 21:18 |
| sdague | anyway, something to consider | 21:18 |
| mikal | jogo: as in "if it hasn't merged by then you're out?" | 21:18 |
| jogo | mikal: yup | 21:19 |
| mikal | I think that's fair... Its two days past the original deadline in the UK timezone. | 21:19 |
| mikal | It only works for us if the rest of the ecosystem is also dropping things out of the gate too though, right? | 21:19 |
| mikal | We need other projects to also be working on stabilization | 21:20 |
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| jogo | mikal: yeah that would help | 21:20 |
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| dansmith | so, without a doubt, that deadline is going to leave some of these features half-merged | 21:20 |
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| mikal | dansmith: that's hard to tell... It depends how broken the gate is | 21:21 |
| jogo | mikal: I can send an email out later today about gate issues | 21:21 |
| mikal | jogo: that would be good | 21:21 |
| dansmith | Based on how it has been going this week, I think it's probably how it will go | 21:21 |
| mikal | Oh, I agree | 21:21 |
| PhilD | Do they all leave things a sane state if they part merge ? | 21:21 |
| dansmith | so would we (a) revert the pieces, (b) leave them, or (c) push the rest to keep the feature whole? | 21:21 |
| mikal | I guess my point is do we think its going to be like that for the next two weeks? | 21:21 |
| mikal | Are we just going to reverify over and over for a couple of weeks? | 21:22 |
| sdague | well, all patches are supposed to be safe for the b camp, right? | 21:22 |
| dansmith | I'm not arguing against the deadline, by the way :) | 21:22 |
| dansmith | sdague: technically, sure | 21:22 |
| sdague | that's our design point, we work at every patch level | 21:22 |
| mikal | b camp? | 21:22 |
| jogo | dansmith: we can evaulate case by case how to deal with things that won't make it | 21:22 |
| dansmith | I'm just curious how we're going to handle it | 21:22 |
| sdague | i.e. don't revert work that lands, just move on | 21:22 |
| dansmith | jogo: okie | 21:22 |
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| dansmith | these are some of the larger FFEs we've ever had, I think | 21:23 |
| mikal | I think there's always an implied "we will do the least worst thing when the time comes" | 21:23 |
| mikal | But encouraging people to be watching their patches over the weekend is a good idea | 21:23 |
| dansmith | so I just want to make sure we think about what we're going to do | 21:23 |
| dansmith | "nothing" is fine with me :) | 21:23 |
| sdague | yeh, nova had a ton of large FFE | 21:23 |
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| sdague | normally FFE for nova is closed out by the tuesday after | 21:23 |
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| mikal | This is true, although I think we also worked through most of them better than ususal as well | 21:24 |
| mikal | Gate tech debt is what is hurting us here | 21:24 |
| mikal | (Noting that is our fault as well, just a different thing) | 21:24 |
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| mikal | I want to move onto bugs if I may | 21:24 |
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| mikal | Because I think that's where the gate discussion goes | 21:24 |
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| mikal | #topic Bugs | 21:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:25 | |
| mikal | So... | 21:25 |
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| mikal | sdague / mriedem1 / jogo: if you could cherry pick stablization bugs for people to work on, what would they be? | 21:25 |
| mikal | Do you have a wish list? | 21:25 |
| jogo | mikal: go to http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/ | 21:25 |
| mikal | Would putting a list of important bugs in an etherpad or something help? | 21:25 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: there was some discussion in nova today already, lots | 21:25 |
| jogo | and look for the word nova (or neutron) | 21:25 |
| tjones | should we mark those critical for tracking purposes? | 21:26 |
| sdague | honestly, I've not been working on gate issues, I've been trigaging the nova bug queue | 21:26 |
| mriedem1 | yeah i'd go through e-r and look for things that are targeted to nova and aren't completely ambiguous, like 'think timed out waiting for status x' | 21:26 |
| tjones | there is just 1 critical affecting gate https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1367941 but i think there are more... | 21:26 |
| mikal | I think its a bending of our triage rules, but if something is breaking the gate its a big deal | 21:26 |
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| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1367941 in oslo-incubator "Able to aquire the semaphore used in lockutils.synchronized_with_prefix twice at the same time" [Critical,Confirmed] | 21:26 |
| sdague | tjones: yeh, I think marking gate bugs critical is good | 21:26 |
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| mriedem1 | tjones: i thought we had a lockutils sync? | 21:26 |
| jogo | tjones: yes that would be great, I don't think we can realistically mark all as critical. so say anything with 5 or more hits in 1 day | 21:26 |
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| mriedem1 | oh nvm | 21:26 |
| mriedem1 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120897/ | 21:26 |
| sdague | mriedem1: this is after the sync | 21:26 |
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| tjones | jogo: good idea | 21:27 |
| jogo | mriedem1: mriedem1 lockutils was a red herring | 21:27 |
| mikal | jogo: the elastic_recheck page is sorted by fail rate, yes? | 21:27 |
| sdague | mikal: yes | 21:27 |
| jogo | tjones: also some are marked as invlalid | 21:27 |
| jogo | mikal: fail rate in last 24 hours | 21:27 |
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| jogo | so just go to the top of the page | 21:27 |
| sdague | jogo: did you get any further on - 1367941 ? | 21:28 |
| sdague | because I can imagine that might be a culprit in lots of issues | 21:28 |
| jogo | sdague: yeah it was a red herring | 21:28 |
| jogo | sdague: just misleading logs | 21:28 |
| sdague | ok | 21:28 |
| jogo | sdague: which is too bad | 21:28 |
| sdague | so why is it still confirmed? | 21:28 |
| jogo | sdague: because there was a bug, but it was in the logging | 21:29 |
| sdague | can you update the log message and make it not critical :P | 21:29 |
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| jogo | sdague: that is the workigng theory at least and everything backs that up | 21:29 |
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| jogo | sdague: re-triaged out of critical | 21:30 |
| sdague | jogo: thanks | 21:30 |
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| jogo | sdague: you looked into bug 1357476 right? | 21:31 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1357476 in neutron "Timeout waiting for vif plugging callback for instance" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1357476 | 21:31 |
| sdague | on the up side, only 32 bugs in the new state for nova | 21:31 |
| sdague | I was debugging with dansmith | 21:31 |
| mriedem1 | jogo: dansmith has a logging patch up for that | 21:31 |
| sdague | yeh, we need the logging patch | 21:31 |
| mriedem1 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120842/ | 21:31 |
| mikal | I guess I'm hoping for a FFE like workflow for bugs at this point | 21:31 |
| sdague | something's not right | 21:31 |
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| mikal | If we could decide as a group a small number to focus on | 21:31 |
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| mikal | We might make more progress than we do usually | 21:31 |
| mikal | I guess "Critical" is one way of defining that group | 21:32 |
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| tjones | either that or use a tag | 21:32 |
| jogo | lets do critical | 21:32 |
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| mikal | Well, we should also be emailing that list to -dev a bunch | 21:33 |
| mikal | Let's make it hard for people to not know what to look at | 21:33 |
| tjones | that will do it! | 21:33 |
| mikal | If people were checking the bug tracker, we wouldn't have 1,000 bugs | 21:33 |
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| tjones | 935 (without incomplete) | 21:34 |
| mriedem1 | moving on... | 21:34 |
| mriedem1 | novaclient release? | 21:34 |
| mikal | Yeah | 21:34 |
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| mikal | But if someone could come up witha wishlist email that would be good | 21:34 |
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| mikal | mriedem1: sure, if you want one | 21:34 |
| mikal | mriedem1: what prompts it? | 21:34 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: 9/18 is the deadline for final client releases before rc1 | 21:35 |
| mikal | And would it destabilize the gate? | 21:35 |
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| mriedem1 | the gate already uses trunk novaclient | 21:35 |
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| mikal | Wow, there's a lot of "undecided" in the client fix committed list | 21:35 |
| mriedem1 | this would be for getting it into global-reqs i think as a min version? | 21:35 |
| mriedem1 | there is a ML thread | 21:35 |
| mikal | Nothing above medium for those thigns which are triaged | 21:35 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-September/045487.html | 21:36 |
| * mikal looks | 21:36 | |
| mikal | Oh that one | 21:36 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: basically any FFEs that touch the clients should have a release before rc1 | 21:36 |
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| mikal | Ok, so how about I try and triage those bugs so they're less confusing over the weekend | 21:36 |
| mikal | And do a release on my Monday? | 21:36 |
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| mriedem1 | sure, well i think you have a week | 21:37 |
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| mikal | I don't recall seeing any client changes in the FFE review list | 21:37 |
| mikal | But I might have missed them | 21:37 |
| mikal | I wasn't really looking for them | 21:37 |
| mriedem1 | they'd be tied to the bp's | 21:37 |
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| mikal | Ok, I will make a note to do a client release | 21:37 |
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| mikal | oMoving on? | 21:37 |
| mriedem1 | mikal: https://github.com/openstack/python-novaclient/commit/c59a0c8748ccc5f6a0cf80910c09b9328b4253ac | 21:38 |
| mriedem1 | that's an example of server bp that is in the client | 21:38 |
| mriedem1 | but not in a released client version | 21:38 |
| mriedem1 | for vishy | 21:38 |
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| mikal | So noted | 21:38 |
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| PhilD | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108942/ is the client change for server group quotas | 21:39 |
| mikal | Ugh | 21:39 |
| mriedem1 | PhilD: he needs to tie it to the bp | 21:39 |
| mikal | Getting that through the gate before 18 September will be hard | 21:39 |
| mikal | Given we need to get three of its friends through first | 21:39 |
| sdague | yeh, honestly, just wait on the client bit there and bring it in once we open the tree back up | 21:40 |
| sdague | and cut another release of the nova client after the release | 21:40 |
| PhilD | Ok - makes sense | 21:40 |
| mikal | Yeah, client releases aren't too scary | 21:40 |
| jaypipes | mikal: both remaining NUMA patches now reviewed. | 21:40 |
| mikal | But I agree that change needs to be tied to the BP | 21:40 |
| mikal | Moving on... | 21:40 |
| PhilD | Its only the shell change - the client bindign itself will work wth the new quotas anyway | 21:40 |
| mikal | I think we've covered gate already | 21:40 |
| mikal | #topic Ironic API proxy | 21:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ironic API proxy (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:41 | |
| mikal | The code is out for review for this one right? | 21:41 |
| mikal | It seems the concensus on the thread is we should land it? | 21:41 |
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| mikal | Its not even very big | 21:42 |
| mikal | So... Who is going to review it? | 21:42 |
| dansmith | I will | 21:43 |
| sdague | I will | 21:43 |
| dansmith | because I have time for that | 21:43 |
| dansmith | (not) | 21:43 |
| mikal | I will too, cause I feel left out | 21:43 |
| mriedem1 | link? | 21:43 |
| mikal | Ok, let's just do it then | 21:43 |
| sdague | I did the first round, mostly wanted a fix on imports, didn't see if we had a second | 21:43 |
| mikal | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/120433/ | 21:43 |
| mikal | We're at patch set 7 | 21:43 |
| mikal | This is the last thing blocking ironic graduation as best as I can tell | 21:44 |
| sdague | unit test fails are probably migrate's fault | 21:44 |
| mriedem1 | i'll add to the queue | 21:44 |
| sdague | rechecking | 21:44 |
| mikal | sdague: It already had a recheck? | 21:44 |
| sdague | it just failed out recently I thought | 21:45 |
| mikal | It failed at 7:29AM | 21:45 |
| mikal | And got rechecked at 7:39AM | 21:45 |
| mikal | (My time) | 21:45 |
| sdague | in crazy future world | 21:45 |
| sdague | ok, my bad :) | 21:45 |
| mikal | LOL | 21:45 |
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| mikal | Ok, I'm done with ironic proxies | 21:45 |
| mikal | #topic Open Discussion | 21:46 |
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| bknudson | I've got a bug fix up for review -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/119646/ -- for some reason it's -V. | 21:46 |
| bknudson | although it's actually passed all the CI | 21:46 |
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| jogo | bknudson: citrix doesn't like it | 21:47 |
| jogo | click toggle CI | 21:47 |
| mriedem1 | citrix doesn't like much today | 21:47 |
| mikal | Sigh | 21:47 |
| jogo | although citrix says it passed but -1ed anywy | 21:47 |
| bknudson | for some reason the latest citrix CI comment says it passed. | 21:47 |
| bknudson | maybe just rebase it and run again? | 21:48 |
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| mikal | Has anyone pinged Bob about the citrix CI being unreliable? | 21:48 |
| mriedem1 | just did | 21:48 |
| mriedem1 | consider him punged | 21:48 |
| mikal | Ta | 21:48 |
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| sdague | the reason citrix CI is unreliable is the memory bloat | 21:48 |
| jogo | sdague: ? | 21:48 |
| sdague | they are basically always running out of memory on their systems during test | 21:48 |
| clarkb | right they have the xenserver overhead on top of everything else | 21:48 |
| clarkb | which is non trivial iirc | 21:49 |
| * dansmith shudders | 21:49 | |
| jogo | haha | 21:49 |
| sdague | BobBall was actually originally the one pushing the reduction of workers in devstack because of *this* | 21:49 |
| sdague | so there is a patch, that ianw disagrees with me on, that gives us a global flag to tune this. I suppose I should just override him and land it so we can move forward. | 21:49 |
| bknudson | devstack change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/117517/ | 21:50 |
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| mikal | So, I think we're done here? | 21:51 |
| mikal | Nothing else? | 21:51 |
| jogo | fix bugs please! | 21:51 |
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| mikal | I live to obey | 21:51 |
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| jogo | I marked gate bugs as critical | 21:51 |
| mikal | Thanks | 21:51 |
| sdague | mikal: definition for release critical bugs? | 21:51 |
| mriedem1 | why does novaclient have a config generator file? | 21:51 |
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| mikal | sdague: hmmm, not sure. I haven't given much thought to that yet. Do we have a written definition we've used in the past? | 21:52 |
| sdague | don't know, it would just probably be good for guidance on triage | 21:53 |
| mikal | Yep | 21:53 |
| mikal | This sounds like the sort of thing ttx will have advice on | 21:53 |
| mikal | I shall ping him and ask | 21:53 |
| mikal | I feel like I don't need to reinvent the wheel here, just work out what we said in the past | 21:53 |
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| mikal | Sounds like we're done | 21:54 |
| mikal | Have a 6 minute break | 21:54 |
| mikal | Then go fix bugs | 21:54 |
| mikal | #endmeeting | 21:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Sep 11 21:54:53 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:54 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-09-11-21.01.html | 21:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-09-11-21.01.txt | 21:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2014/nova.2014-09-11-21.01.log.html | 21:54 |
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| rezaxxxc | hi whts tis open stak | 21:57 |
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