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| * annegentle_ waves | 14:04 | |
| Sam-I-Am | hi anne | 14:04 |
| annegentle_ | sorry jus tlooked at the time! | 14:05 |
| annegentle_ | let's get going | 14:05 |
| phil_h | Great | 14:05 |
| annegentle_ | #startmeeting docteam | 14:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 14:05:14 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is annegentle_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteam' | 14:05 |
| annegentle_ | Agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 14:05 |
| annegentle_ | Let's see, action items | 14:06 |
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| annegentle_ | #Action items from last meeting | 14:06 |
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| annegentle_ | none! | 14:06 |
| annegentle_ | score | 14:06 |
| annegentle_ | Let's report from the summit | 14:06 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think we had a few meetings last week :) | 14:06 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Summit reports | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit reports (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:06 | |
| annegentle_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Juno/Etherpads#Documentation | 14:07 |
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| annegentle_ | as you all know, the etherpads are the record from the Summit. I did add based on my memory at the end of the week and then used the etherpads to make the roadmaps I proposed yesterday | 14:07 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Summary of cross project documentation discussions | 14:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summary of cross project documentation discussions (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:07 | |
| annegentle_ | I sensed that devs are very happy to hand over doc tasks to real writers | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | we got some good input there | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | for the requirements, much of the sentiment was "don't fix what isn't broken" | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | I'll keep poking on that a bit but we didn't come up with sweeping changes | 14:08 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, the content of the roadmaps is great, thanks! | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | just some lateral movement as we see fit | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | You can follow one of the ideas there with the user guide/orchestration inclusion thread on the mailing list | 14:08 |
| annegentle_ | One task we need to assign/capture is the creation of a template for the commit messages, it can just go on the wiki I believe. | 14:09 |
| annegentle_ | that was a great suggestion from a dev in the "making docs easier for devs" session -- she hadn't heard of DocImpact | 14:09 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Install Guide decisions | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Install Guide decisions (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:09 | |
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| Sam-I-Am | yay install guide | 14:10 |
| annegentle_ | those are captured in the etherpad, in the wiki spec linked from the blueprint, and somewhat in the road map | 14:10 |
| loquacities | lol | 14:10 |
| annegentle_ | the blueprint is the place to review all that | 14:10 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Doc process - review guide, docs guide | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc process - review guide, docs guide (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:10 | |
| annegentle_ | My sense of the decisions from that are that the review guide will start on the wiki with Sam-I-Am filling in the outline started there | 14:11 |
| annegentle_ | but we need to talk about the docs guide | 14:11 |
| annegentle_ | I'd prefer it be not-built, what are your thoughts AJaeger? | 14:11 |
| Sam-I-Am | there's a separate wiki for the review guide... i'll probably copy it over to the doc guide wiki as a section | 14:11 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle_, I'd like something that I can easily refer with links to from a review comment - and that works best from a built manual | 14:12 |
| Sam-I-Am | unless you want me to keep it separate and reference itr | 14:12 |
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| loquacities | what's the argument for having it in a book, rather than just on the wiki? | 14:12 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: keep the review guide in the wiki for this release | 14:12 |
| loquacities | wiki satisfies both requirements (not built, and able to be linked) | 14:12 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: partially the length of the wiki page was intimidating to devs | 14:13 |
| AJaeger | loquacities, we need to rework the complete content, it's not good structured anymore. | 14:13 |
| loquacities | heh, muphry | 14:13 |
| AJaeger | loquacities, yes, we can keep it in the wiki and rework everything as well. | 14:13 |
| loquacities | ok, i think proposing an overhaul is probably a better course of action, then | 14:13 |
| AJaeger | Another good thing was the review of having it in guide - allows proper signup of changes | 14:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | wikis just arent laid out well for long documents | 14:14 |
| annegentle_ | really I just suggested a move into the repo since it's quite long and complex | 14:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | hard to find stuff | 14:14 |
| annegentle_ | and the repo may be where people start rather than the wiki | 14:14 |
| annegentle_ | we also have the guide Diane wrote | 14:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | plus it'll take on a format similar to the other books | 14:14 |
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| AJaeger | I would merge Diane's guide and what we discussed... | 14:14 |
| annegentle_ | I'm just thinking it's "conventions.rst" for style/conventions | 14:14 |
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| Sam-I-Am | rather than docbook? | 14:15 |
| AJaeger | RST is difficult to include graphics in it - and a nice graph might do wonder | 14:15 |
| loquacities | it's a guide, though, it shouldn't be laid out like a lengthy book | 14:15 |
| AJaeger | so, docbook would work for me. | 14:15 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: where's that review? I can't find the link tho | 14:15 |
| loquacities | if it's hard to navigate, we need to rethink the way the content is presented | 14:15 |
| Sam-I-Am | loquacities: i like the navigation bar on the left for the books | 14:16 |
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| AJaeger | https://review.openstack.org/93963 | 14:16 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: for example, we publish http://docs.rackspace.com/writers-guide/content/ch_wadl.html | 14:16 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: it has lots of indepth training for new writers | 14:16 |
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| loquacities | i didn't even know it existed until this afternoon, quite honestly | 14:16 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/docs-guide | 14:16 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/DocumentationGuide | 14:16 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: right you and everyone else in the universe :) | 14:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | less chance of duplicating content = good | 14:17 |
| loquacities | it does make me wonder how valuable the content is | 14:17 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93963/ | 14:17 |
| loquacities | we're all here and contributing, and no one seems to know about it ;) | 14:17 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: it also wasn't publishing correctly and 404 often until yesterday | 14:17 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: so I don't think there's a value judgement yet | 14:17 |
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| loquacities | fair enough | 14:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: maybe not pictures so much as the opportunity to do <computeroutput> for examples and stuff | 14:18 |
| loquacities | i'm just not sure i support content for content's sake | 14:18 |
| annegentle_ | are we onboarding enough new people to justify the maintenance? | 14:18 |
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| annegentle_ | we need to -- so there's that | 14:18 |
| annegentle_ | we need to onboard more | 14:18 |
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| AJaeger | IMO we need to onboard more - and to lower the bar, we need to reorganize the documentation we have | 14:18 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: which documentaiton | 14:19 |
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| loquacities | community-created docs will always have architecture problems | 14:19 |
| loquacities | the question is how best to deal with that on an on-going basis | 14:19 |
| loquacities | the content delivery model won't change that | 14:19 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: true dat | 14:20 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, Conventions, Howto - and an intro what lives where | 14:20 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: so "the documentation we have" is the onboarding info, got it | 14:20 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, sorry, in telco - need to multitask... | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | and the scope/target audience for each doc | 14:21 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: so we're still back to wiki reorg or go full-blown docbook booK? | 14:21 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle_, yes, these are the options I see. | 14:21 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: aw thanks for multitasking still! | 14:21 |
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| annegentle_ | dianefleming: what are your thoughts? Is the docbook worthwhile? (Seems not) | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | i wish wiki was a little more flexible | 14:22 |
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| dianefleming | hey - maybe for the actual writing process stuff | 14:22 |
| dianefleming | but not for how to contribute/review in github | 14:22 |
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| Sam-I-Am | its just hard to organize larger docs with it | 14:22 |
| dianefleming | is that what you're talking about? I'm late to this mtg | 14:22 |
| annegentle_ | dianefleming: ok that's a good distinction. Perhaps we need all three -- wiki pages, contributing.rst, long writers guide | 14:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | dianefleming: do we use docbook or wiki for the 'documentation guide' | 14:22 |
| annegentle_ | but that's a lot of work | 14:22 |
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| Sam-I-Am | which is how-to for newcomers, conventions, review stuff, etc. | 14:23 |
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| AJaeger | wiki page and contributing.rst could just be a pointer to the docbook... | 14:23 |
| dianefleming | currently it's on wiki - but also in docbook in "Writers Guide" (written at Rackspace, but we can use that content) | 14:23 |
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| annegentle_ | so we're seeing the limits of wiki | 14:23 |
| dianefleming | i think we should start with one thing - let's move the github content into contributing.rst files | 14:23 |
| AJaeger | limits of wiki - and a document that has grown over time... | 14:24 |
| dianefleming | and then see what we have left | 14:24 |
| annegentle_ | and the long book helps with that but I'm afraid we'll just scare off people again | 14:24 |
| annegentle_ | "you need a whole nother book to do this stuff?" /ragequit | 14:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | lol | 14:24 |
| loquacities | annegentle_: +1 | 14:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: but the longer book will have better organization? | 14:24 |
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| loquacities | organisation doesn't matter if no one is reading it | 14:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | the super long one-page wiki is scary for some, i think. | 14:24 |
| AJaeger | what "github content", dianefleming ? | 14:24 |
| dianefleming | I am not opposed to longer book - the issues are: it gets out of date immediately, people won't read a long book, | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | are there just three pages we're talking about? -- Contributing, Conventions, WhatGoesWhere | 14:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | can we break the wiki into multiple pages, linked from a central page? | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | any other topics for newcomers? | 14:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | that might be the answere | 14:25 |
| dianefleming | @AJaeger how to contribute to the github repos, how to review | 14:25 |
| AJaeger | Howto as well? | 14:25 |
| loquacities | you know what? i think we should be asking new contributors | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: that's what I'm leaning towards | 14:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: yay! | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ah yes | 14:25 |
| loquacities | what pages/links/info did they use to get up and running? | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: but contributing is howto | 14:25 |
| loquacities | what was the most important to them then, and now? | 14:25 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions | 14:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: my coffee just kicked in | 14:26 |
| loquacities | seriously, we have way too much content here, we don't need it all | 14:26 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo | 14:26 |
| AJaeger | we can split up the wiki and have a nice link at the top like Conventions has today | 14:26 |
| dianefleming | @loquacities too much content on the wiki? | 14:26 |
| loquacities | everywhere | 14:26 |
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| loquacities | there's so many pages of new starter content, and it's spread everywhere | 14:26 |
| annegentle_ | for all the projects, yes | 14:26 |
| loquacities | we have a pages of links on our own wiki to try and organise it | 14:26 |
| loquacities | s/a// | 14:27 |
| annegentle_ | I'd like to fix it for everyone, but for now we fix for our contributors | 14:27 |
| loquacities | talking about docs specifically, here | 14:27 |
| annegentle_ | yep | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | can we put a list of all the new starter content together? | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | see where the duplication lies | 14:27 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: we have that with the header on all the Docs wiki pages | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | also, can we get web stats on the wiki?> | 14:28 |
| loquacities | there are one or two main pages of content that are really useful for new starters, that they refer to again and again | 14:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | i still refer to the n00b guide :P | 14:28 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: hm let me look | 14:28 |
| loquacities | let's get those boiled down to a single useful page, then link off to all the extra info if people want to keep reading | 14:28 |
| annegentle_ | one thing we don't document is rebasing for example | 14:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: thats because it scares people away :P | 14:28 |
| annegentle_ | right | 14:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | we should reference some git "tips" page | 14:29 |
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| Sam-I-Am | whether its ours or elsewhere | 14:29 |
| loquacities | Sam-I-Am: i have content that can be used for that | 14:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | i'd rather not duplicate effort there if it exists elsewhere | 14:29 |
| annegentle_ | The Documentation/HowTo page has been reorged several times. so either it's time to really simplify it or move it out of the wiki? Or is that oversimplifying? | 14:29 |
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| loquacities | i think it needs a massive simplification | 14:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: i think some of the confusion is the howto vs. howto for noobs | 14:29 |
| AJaeger | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Category:Documentation - check this for all our Documentation pages that I found ;) | 14:29 |
| phil_h | We really need the git tips stuff | 14:30 |
| loquacities | creating and reviewing patches is not that difficult on a day-to-day basis | 14:30 |
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| Sam-I-Am | perhaps there should be a "quick start" version ... then a page with the gory details | 14:30 |
| loquacities | Sam-I-Am: +1 | 14:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | people see the nice, short quick start version first | 14:30 |
| annegentle_ | I'd like contributing.rst in the openstack-manuals repo to point to these types of resources | 14:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | it goes through setting up your docs dev environment, submitting a patch, local build, and review | 14:30 |
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| Sam-I-Am | and maybe link to a vagrant VM that includes everything | 14:31 |
| AJaeger | Documentation and Documentation/Builds have some overlap, I would clean them up | 14:31 |
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| Sam-I-Am | screen shots of what to expect from gerrit/jenkins might help too | 14:31 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am, so a short page and then links? Works for me... | 14:31 |
| Sam-I-Am | kind of like we're doing with the install guide... "you should see this" | 14:32 |
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| Sam-I-Am | (and of course the screen shot would include a -1 from dianefleming lol) | 14:32 |
| loquacities | lol | 14:32 |
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| dianefleming | @Sam-I-Am A plus 1 from me is invaluable :) | 14:33 |
| dianefleming | ha ha | 14:33 |
| annegentle_ | hee | 14:33 |
| loquacities | :P | 14:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | dianefleming: lol i'm just giving you crap :P | 14:33 |
| annegentle_ | By far page views for Documentation/HowTo are the most read, followed by just /Documentation | 14:33 |
| annegentle_ | everything else falls off drastically | 14:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: thats good to know | 14:33 |
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| loquacities | indeed | 14:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | except for the conventions :/ | 14:33 |
| annegentle_ | So we should focus on streamlining Documentation/HowTo I think | 14:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | +1 | 14:34 |
| loquacities | +1 | 14:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | we need more warm bodies here | 14:34 |
| annegentle_ | Ok so what do we do with the writer's guide? Ditch it? | 14:34 |
| annegentle_ | well, I mean, not take it on into our repo | 14:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: we still need conventions and a review guide | 14:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think we can make conventions easier to understand/search | 14:34 |
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| Sam-I-Am | right now its a bit overwhelming to find stuff | 14:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | i still have trouble finding things | 14:35 |
| loquacities | ctrl-f ;) | 14:35 |
| dianefleming | @annegentle here's an idea - can we solicit some of Kelly Holcomb's time and have her edit those editing wiki pages - or suggest a new organization? | 14:35 |
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| annegentle_ | dianefleming: we could, I'd rather use her time for openstack docs than metadoc docs | 14:35 |
| Sam-I-Am | in the howto, i would mention conventions and the review stuff | 14:35 |
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| annegentle_ | dianefleming: I think AJaeger can do it | 14:35 |
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| AJaeger | me? What? ;) | 14:35 |
| annegentle_ | Ok, so abandon the writer's guide patch? | 14:35 |
| annegentle_ | streamline the HowTo | 14:35 |
| Sam-I-Am | coming up with the new organization is important | 14:35 |
| annegentle_ | Let's still do nothing with Conventions... | 14:36 |
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| dianefleming | @annegentle ok - i can help with organization, or a review of whatever org someone comes up with | 14:36 |
| annegentle_ | the decision was to ship the IBM style guide | 14:36 |
| annegentle_ | dianefleming: thanks | 14:36 |
| annegentle_ | ok | 14:36 |
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| loquacities | i can probably offer some warm bodies from my team to help out | 14:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: i need some phone books to hold my patio furniture down | 14:36 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: you ok with streamlining HowTo? (Sorry to ask all these things while you're not infront of a computer) | 14:36 |
| AJaeger | I can work on the build related stuff - in Documentation, Build and Howto as a first step | 14:36 |
| loquacities | we're having style discussions within our org right now, too, so it fits well with what we're doing | 14:36 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: sounds good, though again, there are other doc tasks that are higher value | 14:37 |
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| AJaeger | I'm infront of the computer - with my whole team here ;) | 14:37 |
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| loquacities | understood | 14:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | how do we distribute the work on a wiki? | 14:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | it doesnt really lock pages | 14:37 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: ok the decision was to ship Ibm Style guide rather than having RedHat or Rackspace open-source their style guides | 14:37 |
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| Sam-I-Am | maybe put a note on it that you're working on it? | 14:37 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ah ha ha | 14:37 |
| loquacities | annegentle_: ok, interesting decision | 14:37 |
| loquacities | is there more background there? | 14:37 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: so are you ok with not bringing in the writer's guide? | 14:37 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: it was an unexpected outcome :) | 14:38 |
| loquacities | indeed | 14:38 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, yes, I am. | 14:38 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ok | 14:38 |
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| annegentle_ | So whose task is it to streamline HowTo? | 14:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think andreas raised his hand :P | 14:38 |
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| loquacities | i think andreas got voluntold :P | 14:38 |
| annegentle_ | heh | 14:39 |
| * AJaeger hides | 14:39 | |
| annegentle_ | Ok sorry for taking up so much time there | 14:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | nice thing if we separate into multiple wiki pages is multiple people can edit them | 14:39 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, give me the action ;) | 14:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: i'll probably take the review guide | 14:39 |
| annegentle_ | #action AJaeger to streamline Documentation/HowTo | 14:39 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, that includes changes to Documentation/Build and Documentation | 14:39 |
| annegentle_ | #action AJaeger to abandon writer's guide patch and blueprint | 14:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: should we keep it at the current wiki page? | 14:39 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: absolutely | 14:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | cool | 14:39 |
| loquacities | don't break links | 14:39 |
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| annegentle_ | right | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | Ok | 14:40 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am, there are links to it. | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Continuous publishing/automation decisions | 14:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Continuous publishing/automation decisions (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:40 | |
| annegentle_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/summit-b301-ci-doc-automation | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | great discussion | 14:40 |
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| Sam-I-Am | we've made more decisions in this meeting than all the neutron sessions last week :P | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | we want to hire a designer to work on the output | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | I have 2 leads there | 14:40 |
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| annegentle_ | meeting with one next week | 14:40 |
| annegentle_ | will set up meeting with other as well | 14:41 |
| annegentle_ | Gauvain will enhance the flagmappings to show new, renamed, deprecated config settings | 14:41 |
| annegentle_ | Adding the OpenStack Security Notes as an appendix to the Security Guide | 14:41 |
| AJaeger | and dcramer has a first patch for single-html page for each book | 14:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | did we also submit a patch for highlighting within output? | 14:41 |
| annegentle_ | he did | 14:41 |
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| Sam-I-Am | yay | 14:41 |
| annegentle_ | we'll also work on moving away from Cloud Sites with the infra team | 14:42 |
| AJaeger | https://review.openstack.org/94497 Sam-I-Am | 14:42 |
| annegentle_ | but first move to rsync | 14:42 |
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| annegentle_ | sound like a good summary? | 14:42 |
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| annegentle_ | #topic Integrated projects | 14:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Integrated projects (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:42 | |
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| annegentle_ | We had a nice session mostly on ceilometer | 14:42 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, not sure about the "first move" - might be that we move directly away... | 14:42 |
| annegentle_ | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/beefing-up-user-and-operations-guides | 14:42 |
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| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ah maybe not rsync first, that's wha tyou mean? | 14:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: thx | 14:43 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, yeah, we might do rsync only as part of moving away from Cloud Sites | 14:43 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: got it | 14:43 |
| annegentle_ | So, one pull quote from the integrated session is something I want to make sure we all know about "Need to ensure that all new integrated projects are capable of meeting the TC-mandated doc requirements." | 14:44 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle_, jeblair told me to give him at least a month to brainstorm and design something... | 14:44 |
| AJaeger | (for moving away) | 14:44 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ok good to know... | 14:44 |
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| annegentle_ | Since our mission is "core" but we need to accomodate needs for integrating projects this continues to be thorny with our current resourcing | 14:45 |
| annegentle_ | I do plan to write a set of guidlines for integrating | 14:45 |
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| annegentle_ | but we have to hold a hard line in order to not be overwhelmed | 14:45 |
| annegentle_ | an example is the request for the Orchestration chapter in the user guide -- that's my request, their counter is a separate guide | 14:46 |
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| annegentle_ | I'm willing to negotiate but have real concerns that aren't all figured out yet | 14:46 |
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| annegentle_ | please be aware for now, and offer suggestions on the mailing list about how to help raise the bar for incubating and integrated projects | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah... i dont buy a separate guide for that | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | seems like a user thing | 14:47 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: right | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | its great that we classify docs by the target audience | 14:47 |
| annegentle_ | So I also wanted to talk about roadmaps for process possibly | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | there's some crossover, but not much | 14:47 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Roadmap tasks | 14:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roadmap tasks (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:47 | |
| annegentle_ | I want to experiment with roadmaps for docs | 14:47 |
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| * AJaeger liked what annegentle_ wrote up | 14:48 | |
| annegentle_ | however I am finding it's difficult to ensure assignment is well-known | 14:48 |
| annegentle_ | what do you all think? | 14:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | what do you mean? | 14:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | like... who's doing what? | 14:48 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: it's kludgy to know who's going to work on a roadmap task, do they update the roadmap.rst and put their name on the line they want to work on? | 14:49 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am, avoiding duplication of effort. Saying "I will do x" | 14:49 |
| annegentle_ | that's how I have it written now | 14:49 |
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| annegentle_ | but I think it's clumsy | 14:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | ok, thats what i thought | 14:49 |
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| annegentle_ | most other projects are going from blueprints to program-specs | 14:49 |
| annegentle_ | we could do that too | 14:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | i was wondering about that | 14:49 |
| sld | please no! | 14:50 |
| annegentle_ | but I really liked the roadmap idea for docs | 14:50 |
| Sam-I-Am | tom sent an email about it | 14:50 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, putting it on the line works - we approve them without review IMO | 14:50 |
| sld | no specs repo, PLEASE | 14:50 |
| loquacities | sld: why? | 14:50 |
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| annegentle_ | AJaeger: I think it's worth a try | 14:50 |
| Sam-I-Am | the roadmap idea is great... its just managing who is doing what. the name thing isn't too bad, its just how it flows through the review system | 14:50 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: to where? | 14:50 |
| sld | it adds another layer of complexity, it adds more time delays, it adds a lot more into what doesn't need to be. | 14:50 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: (tom's email) | 14:50 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: undisclosed recipients it looks | 14:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | it didnt go to a list | 14:51 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, agreed. I'm sure we iterate a bit... | 14:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | want me to forward? | 14:51 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: sure | 14:51 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: ok, let's merge in those roadmaps then (have to see if any more -1s) this week | 14:51 |
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| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: sent | 14:52 |
| AJaeger | annegentle_, you'll get my +2s later ;) | 14:52 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: sounds good | 14:52 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Doc tools news | 14:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools news (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:52 | |
| annegentle_ | Released 0.14 of openstack-doc-tools this week | 14:52 |
| * AJaeger thanks annegentle_ ! | 14:52 | |
| annegentle_ | and there are patches from david cramer with our requests from last week, woo | 14:52 |
| annegentle_ | AJaeger: thank you! That fixed the really weird oddity with the API Reference | 14:53 |
| annegentle_ | Ok, let's go with open discussion | 14:53 |
| annegentle_ | #topic Open discussion | 14:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: docteam)" | 14:53 | |
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| Sam-I-Am | my head is spinning... | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | it was great to meet everyone last week | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think we made some good progress | 14:54 |
| loquacities | yeah, i'm sorry i couldn't make it :( | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | :/ | 14:54 |
| annegentle_ | It was a really productive week -- sometimes they aren't, honestly, but this one was very decisive and productive | 14:54 |
| AJaeger | It was really great to see so many friendly faces for the first time! | 14:54 |
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| annegentle_ | Thanks all of you for your leadership in sessions. | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | i wish i could help neutron :/ | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | poor neutron... | 14:55 |
| loquacities | heh | 14:55 |
| Sam-I-Am | things to do... upgrade guide for icehouse, install guide updates, review guide. | 14:55 |
| annegentle_ | My to-do list is a mile long but I'm working through i | 14:55 |
| annegentle_ | it | 14:55 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: me too | 14:55 |
| Sam-I-Am | but i have all this free time now :P | 14:55 |
| annegentle_ | :P will try to fix that! | 14:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | its just about fixed | 14:56 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am, really? Excellent! | 14:56 |
| phil_h | yes, good news!!! | 14:56 |
| annegentle_ | yesterday in the project meeting, the PTLs decided to rename their project-specs repos to program-specs | 14:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | been a wee bit preoccupied of late... | 14:56 |
| annegentle_ | so nova-specs will become compute-specs | 14:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | minor life issues... | 14:56 |
| sld | you sure? | 14:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | sld: hi there, btw. | 14:57 |
| sld | when i made a nova bp this morning, when i was being reminded to use the nova-specs repo, no one said anything about it being renamed. lol | 14:57 |
| sld | lol | 14:57 |
| annegentle_ | glad I finally figured out this is the third Wed. of May :) | 14:57 |
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| annegentle_ | sld: yeah just happened yesterday | 14:57 |
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| AJaeger | sld, it will be renamed once the infra team has time for it... | 14:57 |
| annegentle_ | sld: so I'm sure most people don't know | 14:57 |
| annegentle_ | poor infra | 14:57 |
| annegentle_ | renames are the worst | 14:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | i wonder what the motivation was | 14:57 |
| AJaeger | sld, renames don't happen suddenly, they need to be planned... | 14:58 |
| sld | yeah | 14:58 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: you can review the logs | 14:58 |
| loquacities | so my team have some spare time coming up for focusing on openstack, what should they be looking at? | 14:58 |
| annegentle_ | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-05-20-21.03.log.html | 14:58 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: roadmap tasks | 14:58 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: per book | 14:58 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: please :) | 14:58 |
| loquacities | no problem at all | 14:59 |
| AJaeger | loquacities, great! | 14:59 |
| loquacities | thanks :) | 14:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | roadmap sure makes it easy | 14:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | that and bugs, of course | 14:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | plenty of those roaming around | 14:59 |
| loquacities | as always ;) | 14:59 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: yes bug triaging and fixing | 14:59 |
| annegentle_ | Sam-I-Am: should they pick up some install guide tasks? | 15:00 |
| loquacities | yeah, i was leaning towards install guide | 15:00 |
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| Sam-I-Am | annegentle_: sure. i think we need to get one chapter completely done and use it as a reference | 15:00 |
| Sam-I-Am | right now theres a few chapters that are close | 15:00 |
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| Sam-I-Am | if you're interested in content, the "overview" sections of each chapter could use some love | 15:01 |
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| Sam-I-Am | vs. plain old restructuring | 15:01 |
| loquacities | that's probably a nice project for my newbies | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: ok thanks! | 15:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah, it is | 15:01 |
| loquacities | i'll sic them on to that | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | Better give up the meeting room | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:01 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 15:01:31 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-05-21-14.05.html | 15:01 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-05-21-14.05.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2014/docteam.2014-05-21-14.05.log.html | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | thanks everone | 15:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | just put your name next to the item in the wiki | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | everyone! | 15:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | yep! | 15:01 |
| loquacities | yeah, some of us have personal training in ... five hours ... | 15:01 |
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| loquacities | :/ | 15:01 |
| annegentle_ | loquacities: yawn! | 15:02 |
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| annegentle_ | loquacities: mine's in less than an hour | 15:02 |
| annegentle_ | :) | 15:02 |
| loquacities | yeah, but you've been to bed already ;) | 15:02 |
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| aviau | Is the ceilometer meeting starting soon? | 15:03 |
| aviau | OH wait | 15:03 |
| aviau | we are wednesday. | 15:03 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #startmeeting XenAPI | 15:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 15:04:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 15:04 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Hi, so anyone around for this weeks meeting? | 15:04 |
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| leifz | I'm here. | 15:04 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyone got anything to raise today? | 15:06 |
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| johnthetubaguy | OK, so there will be more to discuss next week | 15:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | once everyone has recovered from the summit | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | #endmeeting | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:08 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 15:08:02 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:08 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-05-21-15.04.html | 15:08 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-05-21-15.04.txt | 15:08 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2014/xenapi.2014-05-21-15.04.log.html | 15:08 |
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| jgriffith | cinder meeting? | 16:00 |
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| asselin | hi | 16:00 |
| jgriffith | #startmeeting cinder | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 16:00:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:00 | |
| avishay | hello | 16:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:00 |
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| jgriffith | Hi asselin | 16:00 |
| jgriffith | Hey everyone | 16:00 |
| jungleboyj | hello! | 16:01 |
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| eharney | hi | 16:01 |
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| xyang1 | hi | 16:01 |
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| asselin | hi | 16:01 |
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| jgriffith | Still missing a few folks | 16:01 |
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| jgriffith | give them a moment.... | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | then we'll get started | 16:02 |
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| navneet | hi jgriffith, guys | 16:02 |
| mberlin | Hi guys. | 16:02 |
| jungleboyj | asselin: Thanks for adding notes to the 3rd party testing etherpad. That looked helpful. | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | Well, we've got everyobdy that has an agenda item at least ;) | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | let's roll with what we've got | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | #topic Consistency Groups | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Consistency Groups (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:03 | |
| asselin | jungleboyj, you're welcome | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: you're up | 16:03 |
| xyang1 | sure, thanks | 16:03 |
| xyang1 | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cinder-cinder-consistency-groups | 16:03 |
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| xyang1 | so some people have concerns about the restriction of having only one volume type per CG | 16:03 |
| xyang1 | Avishay's comments on etherpad: Why only one type in a CG? This limitation seems very restrictive. For example, I can have a database volume and a separate volume for the log, which are related but may have different QoS settings. I understand where this limitation is coming from (scheduling issues), but maybe we can get around it? For example, when creating the CG, the user specifies which volume types they want to allow | 16:03 |
| asselin | jungleboyj, hopefully we can get it working without the manual workaround... | 16:03 |
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| xyang1 | when creating the CG, the user specifies which volume types they want to allow within the CG. Then the scheduler tries to find a backend that can handle those types. If such a backend exists, the CG creation succeeds, and all volumes placed in that CG are placed on that backend. If the requested volume types are incompatible, the CG creation fails. | 16:04 |
| xyang1 | I think this is a good suggestion | 16:05 |
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| xyang1 | what do you think? we need to make some changes in the scheduler for this to happen | 16:05 |
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| avishay | i think it's a terrible idea ;) | 16:05 |
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| xyang1 | :) | 16:06 |
| eharney | Since we ruled out modifying CG membership in Juno, would that mean you can't modify the list of volume types allowed as well? | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: it's a good idea but I think it would be simpler and more robust if the admin just set this up | 16:06 |
| avishay | eharney: what does that mean that you can't modify CG membership? | 16:06 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: +1 Thank we need to start simple as discussed in the session. | 16:06 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: what do you mean? only allow one volume type per CG? | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: In other words, the type encompasses the consistency group and you're done | 16:06 |
| eharney | avishay: Adding/subtracting volumes from a CG | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: most likely | 16:07 |
| xyang1 | adding/removing volumes from CG is not in the first pass | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: as long as we have volume-types representing backends this seems like it adds a lot of room for error | 16:07 |
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| avishay | i don't understand how that's possible | 16:07 |
| jgriffith | avishay: which? | 16:07 |
| avishay | oh..."create a CG with volumes 1, 2, and 3?" | 16:08 |
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| xyang1 | jgriffith: still one CG can be on one backend, just one backend can support more than 1 type | 16:08 |
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| avishay | xyang1: that's right | 16:08 |
| bswartz | I'm here (sorry I'm late) | 16:08 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: Did we talk about that. | 16:08 |
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| thingee | hey all, got lost in the lvm stuff discussion | 16:08 |
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| jgriffith | xyang1: sure, but how do you enforce that? What I'm saying is we need another construct for that to work efficiently | 16:09 |
| xyang1 | jungleboyj: the decision at the summit is to have only one type per CG | 16:09 |
| xyang1 | so that seems too restrictive | 16:09 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: If you have a backend that can do thick and thin provisioned volumes then you would have two types with two different CGs. | 16:09 |
| thingee | xyang1: yes one type per CG | 16:09 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: Right. | 16:09 |
| avishay | one type per CG doesn't help ensure that all volumes are on the same backend | 16:09 |
| bswartz | avishay: +1 | 16:10 |
| avishay | the restriction doesn't solve anything | 16:10 |
| xyang1 | but one backend may support more than 1 volume types | 16:10 |
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| bswartz | I think CGs need to be associated with a backend/driver, not with a type | 16:10 |
| jungleboyj | avishay: Yes, but isn't up to the administrator to set the system up to avoid that? | 16:10 |
| avishay | bswartz: -1, don't want to expose that | 16:10 |
| bswartz | NetApp knows of many use cases for a CG spanning multiple types of storage | 16:10 |
| avishay | jungleboyj: no, quite the opposite - the whole point of cinder is "i want a volume like this, put it somewhere" | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: but why in the context of consistency groups would you want "different" volume types? | 16:11 |
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| xyang1 | so volumes in a CG can belong to one application, but the application need volumes of different service level | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | So this is kind of way I'm not a fan of things like replication and CG's | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | it just turns in to a debate about "this is how I do it" and it creates a complex and brittle model | 16:12 |
| avishay | i think the restriction should be that you have to specify the types allowed in the CG ahead of time, and only allow new volumes to be added to the CG, so we can ensure they're on the same backend | 16:12 |
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| bswartz | avishay: I agree | 16:12 |
| jgriffith | avishay: I think that's fine and achieves the same end result I was looking for | 16:12 |
| jungleboyj | avishay: I think we agree on the only new volumes part. | 16:13 |
| bswartz | let the CG have more than 1 type, let the schduler enforce that the CG is tied to a single backend/driver | 16:13 |
| avishay | exactly | 16:13 |
| jungleboyj | How does having multiple types ensure that it goes to the same backend? | 16:13 |
| jungleboyj | avishay: ^ | 16:13 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: avishay that's fine, but it's kind of a train wreck to implement/enforce in what we have today | 16:13 |
| xyang1 | jungleboyj: we need to make some changes in scheduler to achieve that | 16:13 |
| avishay | jungleboyj: it doesn't - declaring the CG first and only allowing new volumes does that | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: avishay I still think we need some higher level grouping construct | 16:14 |
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| jungleboyj | xyang1: avishay Ok. | 16:14 |
| xyang1 | avishay: we have agreed to create a CG and create volumes as part of it, but not update the CG in the first phase | 16:14 |
| avishay | jgriffith: what kind of grouping construct? | 16:14 |
| bswartz | There needs to be a different grouping construct for the purposes of DR/replication -- but that has totally different needs than CGs, so I'd rather discuss that separately | 16:14 |
| xyang1 | avishay: no allowing add/remove volume from CG after it is created | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | avishay: something like a parent grouping which may be just contain backend members | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | avishay: you can implement that laterally as well | 16:15 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: but my thought was something like a parent-group that provdes info on all types that have "soem thing" in common | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | that might be backend, or even something else if there's a use case | 16:16 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: that is putting cinder host in a group? | 16:16 |
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| jgriffith | xyang1: yes, but it's another free-form type of thing so you can use it for things besides hosts | 16:16 |
| avishay | jgriffith: so make "pools", which in general are limited to one backend? | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | avishay: yes, it could be used for that | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | avishay: that is the most prevelant use case | 16:17 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: I haven't really come up with another meaningful use | 16:17 |
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| avishay | jgriffith: it breaks the placement model of "put this volume wherever you think", but we may not have a choice | 16:18 |
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| jgriffith | so then instead of duplicating all sorts of extra-specs entries across multiple types you can just inherit from teh parent grouping | 16:18 |
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| avishay | jgriffith: the fact is that because cinder is only on the control path, it relies on the underlying storage, which forces some grouping | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | avishay: well, in this case we want to break that IMO | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | avishay: what do you mean "only" the control path? | 16:19 |
| avishay | jgriffith: i mean not data path | 16:19 |
| jgriffith | avishay: well, I figured but I'm not sure what you're getting at? | 16:19 |
| avishay | jgriffith: it was a bit broken before, like where a volume clone could only inherit the source's type (and maybe retype after without migrating, maybe) | 16:19 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: ahh... ok, I kinda see where you're going | 16:19 |
| guitarzan | ooh, calling that part broken is a good sign | 16:20 |
| avishay | jgriffith: i'm getting at that maybe we do need to bend the rules a bit, or live with the restrictions | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: don't get excited :) | 16:20 |
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| bswartz | lol | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | avishay: I say bend the rules and go with my grouping proposal :) | 16:20 |
| avishay | i don't have a good suggestion, just saying what's going through my head at the moment :) | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | but I'm completely unbiased here ;) | 16:20 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: I think this parent group thing is different from having one backend support multiple volume types | 16:20 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: if it gets me snapshot to different type you have my vote :P | 16:20 |
| avishay | jgriffith: your proposal could be great, just don't quite fully get it :) | 16:20 |
| avishay | guitarzan: :) | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: how so? | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: just run Havan and you can do that ;) | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | havana | 16:21 |
| avishay | haha | 16:21 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: grouping cinder hosts is like groups multiple backends together? | 16:21 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: no, havana is what broke it | 16:21 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: is that what you mean? | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: no, doesn't have to be | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: my use case was actually just grouping types to the same backend | 16:21 |
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| jgriffith | xyang1: the opposite of what you just said | 16:22 |
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| xyang1 | jgriffith: okay, that makes sense. | 16:22 |
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| xyang1 | jgriffith: group multiple volume types together, but they have to be on the same backend | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: yeah | 16:22 |
| avishay | i think a group/pool would have some properties (i.e., supported volume types), and have the added property that all operations must work within it (i.e., clone a volume between any two supported types, make a CG, etc) | 16:22 |
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| jgriffith | xyang1: so when you say you want a CG using volume-types x,y,z it just makes sure it can do that and have them all in the same grouping | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | avishay: exactly | 16:23 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: the point is to make it invisible to the end user | 16:23 |
| avishay | jgriffith: i'm ok with that | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | avishay: puts a bit more burden on the cloud admin, but not much | 16:24 |
| avishay | jgriffith: and then the CG would be tied to a pool | 16:24 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: ok. but you are saying this grouping is not CG, but a different group construct? | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | avishay: yes | 16:24 |
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| jgriffith | xyang1: yes, I think it has a number of uses besides CG | 16:24 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: that means we need to introduce another table in db? | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: but CG becomes *easier* to manage and setup this way | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: yup | 16:24 |
| avishay | xyang1: the grouping puts a restriction on placement, the CG is a subset of the group | 16:24 |
| avishay | DuncanT: thingee: thoughts? | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: actually this could probably be done outside of the db if it's a big deal | 16:25 |
| xyang1 | avishay: ok, I'll need to think about it | 16:25 |
| avishay | i think the idea must be flawed because i'm agreeing with jgriffith too quickly ;) | 16:25 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: LOL | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | avishay: not really... I proposed this in HongKong :) | 16:26 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith, avishay: so the idea is this group construct can be used in other places other than CG? | 16:26 |
| thingee | avishay: I missed the part of how you figure two backends are compatible to be in the same CG | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | avishay: so 6 months+ is about right :) | 16:26 |
| bswartz | it's only flawwed if duncan agrees too | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: if DuncanT agrees the world is likely to end | 16:26 |
| avishay | jgriffith: i must have spaced out | 16:26 |
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| bswartz | I would like to see the idea written down concisely though -- I'm not 100% sure I'm on the same page with yall | 16:26 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: I think a heated debate about somethign started at the same time | 16:26 |
| avishay | jgriffith: sounds about right | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: geesh... you are sure a picky sort | 16:27 |
| jungleboyj | thingee: I don't think that is possible. | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: it's possible | 16:27 |
| thingee | jungleboyj: ok, well I thought that it was suggested multiple types could be in same CG. I'm not sure I follow then. | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: just probably not really smart | 16:27 |
| xyang1 | thingee, jungleboyj: we are still talking about volumes in one CG on the same backend | 16:27 |
| bswartz | hey I just want to know what I'm agreeing/disagreeing with | 16:27 |
| avishay | thingee: i think the admin would need to figure it out? good point, probably tricky | 16:28 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: That was what I thought. | 16:28 |
| avishay | bswartz: :) | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: just vote in favor of my proposals and everything will be alright | 16:28 |
| thingee | avishay, jgriffith: this is why we originally said one type per CG | 16:28 |
| xyang1 | thingee, jungleboyj: it is just multiple volume types per backend | 16:28 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: okie dokie | 16:28 |
| guitarzan | it's specifying backends for volume types | 16:28 |
| guitarzan | or vice versa | 16:28 |
| thingee | I guess as avishay said, one type could be multiple backends | 16:28 |
| avishay | thingee: it needs to be one backend for CG though, not type | 16:28 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: +1 | 16:28 |
| thingee | doesn't help anything | 16:28 |
| thingee | avishay: +1 | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: wow! I should've tried that years ago :) | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I'll write up a doc and share it with everyone | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | thingee: what do you mean? | 16:29 |
| jungleboyj | avishay: +1 | 16:29 |
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| bswartz | jgriffith: you going to share it thru the ML or LP or something else? | 16:29 |
| thingee | jgriffith: originally we said at the summit one type per CG. avishay brought up the point that a type could mean two backends | 16:29 |
| avishay | jgriffith: thingee's point is a good one - the admin would need to set up the pools correctly (with knowlege of who can cooperate with who) | 16:29 |
| guitarzan | thingee: its scheduler hacks to enforce that | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: LP | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | or specs repo if it ever merges | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: thingee that's what we've been talking about here | 16:30 |
| thingee | jgriffith: I'm just worried about relying on the admin to set that up correctly. | 16:30 |
| avishay | i think to be safe, we could have a hierarchy: backend > pool > volume, and only expose pools and volumes to users (admins see backends obviously) | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | avishay: thingee the whole point of this is to create a grouping of types that are on the same backend | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | that's the whole point | 16:30 |
| thingee | jgriffith: yeah sorry, I thought people were agreeing this was the approach and I missed the solution of how all this works :) | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | avishay: yeah, I think that seems like a good approach, although | 16:31 |
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| jgriffith | not sure about the term "pool" and what it means in an end use context etc | 16:31 |
| bswartz | thingee: people get nervous if there's too much agreement -- that's why we're disagreeing | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I disagree | 16:31 |
| guitarzan | we're disagreeing on principle | 16:31 |
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| bswartz | seriously though I think there's a lot of agreement on the individual points and we just need to see a complete proposal | 16:32 |
| avishay | guitarzan: i disagree | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | Ok | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | I think we should at least move forward with it | 16:32 |
| avishay | guitarzan: :) | 16:32 |
| guitarzan | I think the "it's impossible for operators to configure" needs to either be addressed or ignored | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | I'll work on writing up the grouping proposal | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: I'll get that to you to use for the CG work | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | sound like a plan? | 16:32 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: sure | 16:33 |
| bswartz | #action jgriffith propose a workable CG grouping construct in a launchpad BP | 16:33 |
| thingee | I agree move forward, but I'm still curious how we figure how all the types in the pool are compatible. Is this just doing a comparison on extra_specs? | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | thingee: nope | 16:33 |
| avishay | jgriffith: so when using CGs: backend > pool/group > CG > volume, yes? | 16:33 |
| guitarzan | the admin sets it up | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | thingee: the flow is like this: | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | admin creates a Group | 16:33 |
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| jgriffith | admin creates a volume-type and assigns it to that group (or doesn't) | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | types asigned to a group inherit properties from the group | 16:34 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: so my CG proposal will have a dependency on the grouping construct that you are going to propose? | 16:34 |
| navneet | what are the properties like? | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | so extra-specs keys like "backend-name" is the first candidate for inheritance | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: yes | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | navneet: to start the big one is just backend-name, but you use meta like we do everywhere else to make it flexible | 16:35 |
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| jgriffith | navneet: I suspect there are other use cases for this | 16:35 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: I'm wondering if that will affect multiple pools per backend as well? | 16:35 |
| navneet | and it would be inherited as an extra-spec? | 16:35 |
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| jgriffith | navneet: it may mean something completely different for guitarzan for example | 16:36 |
| avishay | jgriffith: ohh... i was thinking something a bit different | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | avishay: do tell | 16:36 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: pools aren't very meaningful on mass quantities of small nodes I think | 16:36 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: er, groups | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: probably true | 16:36 |
| navneet | xyang1: multiple pools not limited by types | 16:36 |
| avishay | actually i thought that probably backend == pool, and the scheduler could figure out what types each backend supported and report that | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: but at least I don't have to duplicate extra-specs entries for every type | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: in other words say I only have one backend | 16:37 |
| xyang1 | navneet: ok | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: but I have 10 different types serviced by that backend | 16:37 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: yeah | 16:37 |
| navneet | avishay: pools will translate to separte schedulable entities | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: k... I'll stop :) | 16:37 |
| avishay | on in the case of a driver like netapp which i believe manages multiple pools, the backend would have multiple pool constructs | 16:37 |
| xyang1 | avishay: we can have multiple pools on the same backend though | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | avishay: xyang1 I haven't gotten to the whole pools thing | 16:38 |
| avishay | navneet: yes i think i like that idea | 16:38 |
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| jgriffith | avishay: xyang1 I'm still unsure of that whole thing and what it means to an end user | 16:38 |
| avishay | jgriffith: as am i :) | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | we're supposed to make this easy for the end-user :) | 16:38 |
| avishay | jgriffith: pffft | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | avishay: :) | 16:39 |
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| guitarzan | usefulness trumps usability | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | Still confused people? | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: +1 | 16:39 |
| bswartz | the out of box experience should be easy but setting up complicated features can be hard | 16:39 |
| bswartz | make easy things easy and hard things possible | 16:39 |
| guitarzan | someone setting up 14 backends and 47 types is going to have to suffer through some pain | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: good statement | 16:40 |
| avishay | i think navneet's idea of having pool == schedulable entity sounds right, and bswartz's idea of having the scheduler aware of internal pools goes well with that | 16:40 |
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| xyang1 | jgriffith: so one group construct can have multiple CGs in it? | 16:40 |
| bswartz | I think Larry Wall gets credit for that quote | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: sure | 16:40 |
| guitarzan | so navneet are you arguing against your pool implementation? :D | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: he also coined "there's more than one way to do it" which isn't so hot :) | 16:41 |
| bswartz | lol I know | 16:41 |
| navneet | guitarzan: no...I think its agreement everywhr :) | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | Ok, so there's details, we an adjust but let's get started down this path | 16:42 |
| avishay | he also coined "int F=00,OO=00;main(){F_OO();printf("%1.3f\n",4.*-F/OO/OO);}F_OO()" | 16:42 |
| guitarzan | navneet: I just mean this "scheduleable pool" idea seems contrary to your pool per service implementation :) | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | else we discuss for another 6 months :) | 16:42 |
| guitarzan | needs more regex | 16:42 |
| avishay | guitarzan: haha | 16:42 |
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| jgriffith | I'd like to have the pools discussion as a seperate topic if we could | 16:42 |
| navneet | guitarzan: no its not...each service is actually schedulable | 16:42 |
| hemna | jgriffith, +1 | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | Shall we move on to the next topic? | 16:43 |
| navneet | guitarzan: thhats the whole point of having pools as service | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | arguments/objections? | 16:43 |
| avishay | i think we need to solve pools before CGs...once we have pools the restrictions on CGs change | 16:43 |
| guitarzan | navneet: yes, I follow | 16:43 |
| bswartz | avishay: that means navneet needs to hurry up and finish the unit tests so we can turn the WIP into a mergable submission | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | avishay: sighh... | 16:44 |
| hemna | I don't see why we need a separate driver instance for each pool. Specify the pool in volume types and use 1 driver instance. report the pool stats up to the scheduler. | 16:44 |
| navneet | bswartz: working on it :) | 16:44 |
| xyang1 | avishay: I think CG should be tied to volume types, not pools. whether it is restricted by pools depends on driver implemenation | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | hemna: navneet said it doesn't work while we were in ATL :) | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: I agree | 16:45 |
| hemna | xyang1, +1 | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: particularly since many of us don't have that silly concept :) | 16:45 |
| navneet | jgriffith: I said it worked 2 days back...I need to check again | 16:45 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: :) | 16:45 |
| hemna | I'm not sure how that doesn't work. It works for us perfectly today. :) | 16:45 |
| avishay | i think what i proposed for CGs will work... we can think about pools in parallel, i don't think i care much | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | navneet: no I mean the grouping of types you said didn't work for some reason | 16:45 |
| hemna | we just don't have support for reporting the pool stats into the scheduler | 16:45 |
| navneet | hemna:+1 | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | navneet: which I'm still a bit unclear as to why | 16:46 |
| guitarzan | I don't think it was "doesn't work" I think it was "lots harder" | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: ahh... good point | 16:46 |
| guitarzan | or "lots more change" | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | mor intrusive | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | more even | 16:46 |
| navneet | jgriffith: latest WIP ll work for all | 16:46 |
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| jgriffith | honestly there will probably be some overlap then in what I proposed | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | meaning things may change | 16:47 |
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| navneet | jgriffith: idea does not change... | 16:48 |
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| jgriffith | Ok... 48 minutes in | 16:48 |
| avishay | wow we have 2 more topics and 10 minutes | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | we still have a couple topics | 16:48 |
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| jgriffith | #topic external ci testing | 16:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "external ci testing (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:48 | |
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| jgriffith | I just wanted to get a quick pules of where people are at in terms of briging this online | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | anybody working on it? Supporting all of your drivers? | 16:49 |
| jungleboyj | Done. ;-) | 16:49 |
| hemna | we are working on it...have been for about a month | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | problems/concerns etc etc | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: really? | 16:49 |
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| xyang1 | we'll start soon | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: I don't see it reporting in to Gerrit | 16:49 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: No, I wish. | 16:49 |
| bswartz | akerr: ping | 16:49 |
| hemna | we had problems getting a 2nd NIC recognized by the vm to support our iSCSI network | 16:49 |
| bruff | working on it (Oracle ZFSSA) | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | hemna: ahhh yes, had the same problem | 16:49 |
| bswartz | bah he's not here | 16:49 |
| hemna | and libvirt doesn't support FC vHBA passthrough | 16:49 |
| jungleboyj | We met about it yesterday and have started working with the driver owners to get the systems set up. | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | hemna: so I cheated and added a bridge across my iscsi net | 16:50 |
| xyang1 | Is there a place where people can share tips? Does etherpad work? | 16:50 |
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| hemna | I think asselin finally found a workaround for the 2nd iSCSI nic issue, we haven't tried PCI passthrough through | 16:50 |
| hemna | for FC | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: there's a weekly meeting | 16:50 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith: time? | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | hemna: share the 2nd nic solution if you have it | 16:51 |
| hemna | ok, I'll have asselin post up something | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | hemna: I made it work with Neutron but that's another battle in itself | 16:51 |
| hemna | masochist! | 16:51 |
| asselin | hi, i posted my manual workaround for 2nd eth in the same etherpad for summit discussion | 16:52 |
| hemna | do we know anyone that actually works on libvirt itself? | 16:52 |
| xyang1 | asselin: thanks! | 16:52 |
| jungleboyj | xyang1: I think asselin Already put notes in the etherpad. Seems a good place to put stuff. | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | xyang1: xyang1 https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings#Third_Party_Meeting | 16:52 |
| bswartz | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cinder-3rd-party-cert-and-verification | 16:52 |
| xyang1 | jgriffith, bswartz: thanks! | 16:53 |
| asselin | also jaypipes posted the links there too to setup the ci system. I haven't tried it yet | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | hemna: there's a number of folks on the Nova team, but libvirt is open source | 16:53 |
| asselin | https://github.com/jaypipes/os-ext-testing | 16:53 |
| eharney | hemna: i can probably help find people that do | 16:53 |
| avishay | damn i missed the first two parties *waka waka* | 16:53 |
| asselin | https://github.com/jaypipes/os-ext-testing-data | 16:53 |
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| hemna | thanks. I want to pick their brains and see if there is a way to get vHBA passthrough working. That's the best long term FC solution. | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | asselin: actually you should point folks to his blog | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | http://www.joinfu.com/ | 16:54 |
| asselin | jgriffith, yes, his blog posts are there too | 16:54 |
| jgriffith | Oh.. he links them off the github readme... cool | 16:54 |
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| jgriffith | ok, we all have a lot of work to do here | 16:54 |
| hemna | multi-attach ? | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | don't be surprised when someobdy says "why aren't you testing" | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | I think everybody is clear | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | hemna: nope | 16:55 |
| hemna | k | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | #topic GlusterFS | 16:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "GlusterFS (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:55 | |
| jgriffith | mberlin: You're up | 16:55 |
| mberlin | My turn ;) | 16:55 |
| mberlin | My name is Michael Berlin and I work for the storage startup Quobyte which has its office in Berlin, Germany. | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | hemna: sorry, it was on the agenda | 16:55 |
| hemna | np | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | multi-attach was not | 16:55 |
| hemna | yah no worries. | 16:55 |
| mberlin | Our storage interface for VMs is file based and therefore our Cinder driver is very similar to the NFS and GlusterFS one. | 16:55 |
| asselin | from previous topic: etherpad link with links referenced above: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cinder-3rd-party-cert-and-verification | 16:55 |
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| mberlin | In fact, I reused the GlusterFS snapshot code for our Cinder driver. I've submitted our driver for review earlier this week. | 16:56 |
| mberlin | Avishay (for good reasons) complained about the code duplication. | 16:56 |
| mberlin | As a solution, I volunteer to move out the GlusterFS snapshot code into the general RemoteFS class in the NFS driver. | 16:56 |
| mberlin | Eric planned to do this for Juno anyway and agrees with that. | 16:56 |
| mberlin | The code duplication would be reduced and the NFS driver profits from the snapshot functionality. | 16:56 |
| mberlin | Any concerns about this? | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | sounds fine to me | 16:56 |
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| bswartz | +1 | 16:57 |
| eharney | i think this is a good plan and i don't forsee any issues with it -- goal is to just get all the *FS drivers that need snapshot functionality working the same way | 16:57 |
| avishay | jgriffith: stop agreeing with me | 16:57 |
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| navneet | mberlin: we need to evaluate it on netapp nfs drivers | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | eharney: +1 | 16:57 |
| bswartz | I have one issue/requirement | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | avishay: NO | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:57 |
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| avishay | :) | 16:57 |
| navneet | mberlin: hopefully should be fine but ll let you know | 16:57 |
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| eharney | navneet: i don't think this is relevant for NFS drivers... | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: ? | 16:57 |
| eharney | navneet: Netapp NFS i mean | 16:57 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: issue/requirement? | 16:58 |
| bswartz | whatever is pulled into the RemoteFS driver needs to be overridable in the child drivers (i.e. don't create any objects in the constructor) | 16:58 |
| navneet | eharney: ok...not sure | 16:58 |
| eharney | correct | 16:58 |
| navneet | RemoteFs is something netapp also inherits | 16:58 |
| avishay | bswartz: fo sho | 16:58 |
| bswartz | just makes sure that setup work is done in methods that can be overridden | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: sure, that would kinda defeat the purpose | 16:58 |
| navneet | unless things have chnaged | 16:58 |
| eharney | navneet: the NetApp driver provides all its own create/delete snapshot methods though. so as long as we don't do something silly it'll be fine | 16:58 |
| avishay | mberlin: sounds good? | 16:59 |
| bswartz | last time I checked the glusterFS driver did some stuff in the constructor which would make the driver very hard to subclass correctly | 16:59 |
| mberlin | Sounds good to me. | 16:59 |
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| eharney | bswartz: it might, i know i caused some issues there at one point. i think i cleaned it up a bit but will need to look around for issues like that again | 16:59 |
| mberlin | I'll make sure that overriding is no problem. | 16:59 |
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| bswartz | mberlin: ty | 16:59 |
| avishay | so the verdict is: move the code to remotefs, but do it cleanly so that it can be overridden | 16:59 |
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| bswartz | yes | 16:59 |
| avishay | awesome | 16:59 |
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| avishay | right on time :) | 17:00 |
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| mberlin | Yeah :-) | 17:00 |
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| jungleboyj | :-) | 17:00 |
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| jgriffith | Okiedokie | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | thanks everyone | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 17:01:02 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
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| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-05-21-16.00.html | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-05-21-16.00.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-05-21-16.00.log.html | 17:01 |
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| avishay | thank you, our glorious leader | 17:01 |
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| tjones | #startmeeting vmwareapi | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 17:01:23 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tjones. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi' | 17:01 |
| tjones | hi folks - who's here today? | 17:01 |
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| tjones | *listens to crickets* | 17:03 |
| tjones | no one here?? | 17:04 |
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| browne | hi | 17:05 |
| tjones | hey browne | 17:05 |
| browne | sorry, i was here, but distracted | 17:05 |
| tjones | no one else is here | 17:05 |
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| tjones | i was hoping vincent would be here | 17:06 |
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| tjones | gary can't make it | 17:06 |
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| browne | sabari should be here in a second | 17:07 |
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| sabari | Hey All | 17:07 |
| tjones | yeah but if it is just us three we might as well meet in person :-D | 17:07 |
| browne | ha, true | 17:07 |
| sabari | :) | 17:07 |
| sabari | I guess it's time to re-send meeting invites :) | 17:07 |
| tjones | lets wait a few more minutes for dims, or vincent, or kiran | 17:08 |
| browne | but then there would be not log of the conversation | 17:08 |
| sabari | for some reason it stopped showing up on my calendare. | 17:08 |
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| tjones | true but they have BP i wanted to discuss | 17:08 |
| tjones | lets just start with bugs then | 17:08 |
| tjones | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=vmware | 17:08 |
| tjones | i've been asked by mikal to drive a list of top ten bugs during the weekly nova meeting. Are there any issues here that we need to have that kind of visibitly? | 17:09 |
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| tjones | in general nova has had a bunch of resize bugs opened. we have at least one of them | 17:10 |
| browne | there are quite a few of High in our list | 17:10 |
| sabari | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1321381 | 17:10 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1321381 in nova "VMware: Ports are not cleaned up after reschedule" [Undecided,New] | 17:10 |
| sabari | this is affecting minesweeper | 17:10 |
| tjones | ok that is a good one | 17:10 |
| tjones | i will add it | 17:10 |
| sabari | We need to figure out what's happening here. | 17:10 |
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| tjones | gary is looking into it | 17:11 |
| sabari | But looks like there was an update late yest, sayinfg this is only on Havana. | 17:11 |
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| sabari | Still may be worth taking a look. | 17:11 |
| tjones | is minesweeper on havana? yes it is | 17:11 |
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| tjones | i would think it would prob also be on juno | 17:12 |
| sabari | Yeah, this bug was happening during testbed deployment for CI, which is on Havana. | 17:12 |
| tjones | what about this one - https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1269418 | 17:12 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1269418 in openstack-vmwareapi-team "nova rescue doesn't put VM into RESCUE status on vmware (CVE-2014-2573)" [High,In progress] | 17:12 |
| tjones | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1269418 | 17:12 |
| tjones | oops | 17:12 |
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| tjones | no - don't need to raise it up | 17:13 |
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| tjones | aaron says it is only havana oddly enoguht | 17:14 |
| tjones | ok anyone else joined while we looked at bugs?? | 17:15 |
| browne | what about 1316433? its High and has no owner | 17:15 |
| tjones | browne: want to take a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1317393 | 17:15 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1317393 in nova "VMware: operating system not found after upgrade to 5.5" [Undecided,New] | 17:15 |
| tjones | ha ha | 17:16 |
| tjones | good timing | 17:16 |
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| browne | sure i'll take a look | 17:16 |
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| browne | what about - https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1316433 | 17:17 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1316433 in nova "vmware: nova compute memory grows continuously with creation and deletions on VMs" [High,New] | 17:17 |
| tjones | it is already owned by aaron | 17:18 |
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| tjones | moving on to BP | 17:18 |
| browne | it is? i see it as unassigned | 17:18 |
| tjones | #topic BP under review | 17:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "BP under review (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)" | 17:18 | |
| tjones | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova-specs+message:vmware,n,z | 17:18 |
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| tjones | anyone have one they want to discuss? | 17:20 |
| tjones | there are a couple new ones | 17:20 |
| tjones | ok they are not here | 17:21 |
| tjones | #topic approved BP | 17:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "approved BP (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)" | 17:21 | |
| tjones | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack?searchtext=vmware | 17:21 |
| tjones | refactor is down to 2 patches. i have a comment from matt i need to address. | 17:21 |
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| tjones | then it's off to vui for phase 2, 3, and oslo | 17:22 |
| tjones | anyone have anything they want to discuss on other BP? | 17:22 |
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| tjones | #topic open discussion | 17:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: vmwareapi)" | 17:24 | |
| tjones | anything else to discuss? | 17:24 |
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| tjones | ok short meeting | 17:24 |
| tjones | thanks guys | 17:24 |
| tjones | #endmeeting | 17:24 |
| browne | thanks! | 17:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:24 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 17:24:46 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:24 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-05-21-17.01.html | 17:24 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-05-21-17.01.txt | 17:24 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2014/vmwareapi.2014-05-21-17.01.log.html | 17:24 |
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| notmyname | swift meetingtime | 19:00 |
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| creiht | howdy | 19:00 |
| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 19:00:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| otoolee | Hello. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:00 |
| notmyname | who's here? | 19:00 |
| portante | o/ | 19:00 |
| elambert | me | 19:00 |
| cschwede_ | \o/ | 19:00 |
| otoolee | Me. | 19:00 |
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| creiht | |-o-| | 19:01 |
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| acoles | i am | 19:01 |
| * portante goes and gets his x-wing fighter! | 19:01 | |
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| notmyname | :-) | 19:01 |
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| creiht | :>o<: | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | I think most (all?) of you were at the summit last week | 19:02 |
| notmyname | mostly I want to cover that. but a couple of other things too | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 19:02 |
| notmyname | #topic summit follow-up | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit follow-up (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:02 | |
| notmyname | what worked at the summit? what didn't? what do you want to change for next time? | 19:02 |
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| notmyname | was the swift project pod useful? | 19:03 |
| portante | yes | 19:03 |
| cschwede_ | yes! | 19:03 |
| creiht | yes | 19:03 |
| acoles | notmyname: yes, i think so | 19:03 |
| notmyname | great! | 19:03 |
| creiht | that was one of the greatest improvements | 19:03 |
| acoles | i thought the formal sessions went well | 19:03 |
| portante | more ops feedback, like to see an ops summit like we have the design summit | 19:03 |
| notmyname | creiht: cool | 19:03 |
| notmyname | portante: more than just the ops session we had? what about the 2 days of ops track they had? | 19:04 |
| notmyname | portante: that is, tell me more about your idea | 19:04 |
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| portante | make it more comfortable for the ops folks to give feedback | 19:04 |
| portante | it seemed like they felt they were doing things wrong at times | 19:04 |
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| portante | at least in a few of the sessions | 19:04 |
| notmyname | hmm | 19:04 |
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| portante | and instead would like to see them voice more | 19:05 |
| notmyname | I think the room layout could have been better for that | 19:05 |
| portante | yes, true, it was pretty bad for those kind of sessions | 19:05 |
| notmyname | bring more people up front. rather than a big lecture hall format | 19:05 |
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| portante | yes, like concentric circles from center out | 19:06 |
| cschwede_ | maybe a quick and easy survey before the next summit for topics ops are interested in? | 19:06 |
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| cschwede_ | so we can ensure we talk about them? | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | cschwede_: portante: you're thinking about swift-specific stuff? 'cause I know tom is working on that for openstack-wide things | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | portante: cschwede_: part of that has to do with the openstack user survey. which I'll try to get more input on next time | 19:07 |
| portante | openstack wide, but I only attended one ops session for openstack wide and one for just swift | 19:07 |
| cschwede_ | notmyname: yes, for swift-related stuff. i think it’s a little bit different thant for example nova-related ops | 19:07 |
| notmyname | ah ok | 19:07 |
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| notmyname | I liked the ops session we had, and I got some good feedback from the ops-meetup track that was openstack-wide | 19:08 |
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| notmyname | things that I got from our ops session are: | 19:08 |
| notmyname | ring validator (in swift-recon): eg test that something is running on the ports in the ring | 19:08 |
| notmyname | deep health check to test all the way to drives (? or at least storage servers) | 19:08 |
| notmyname | better ring deployment inside of swift itself | 19:08 |
| notmyname | need internal net sec enforcement | 19:08 |
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| cschwede_ | +2 for better/easier ring deployment! | 19:09 |
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| notmyname | These are things we should put into LP (or the new specs repo) to track and try to get done. or decide we won't do | 19:10 |
| notmyname | any other ops-related comments/feedback from the summit? | 19:10 |
| cschwede_ | benchmarking? | 19:10 |
| cschwede_ | i mean how to benchmark and some example benchmarks? -> docs | 19:10 |
| notmyname | cschwede_: always a popular topic. we need to move from "here's a new benchmark tool" to "here's the patch that speeds stuff up" :-) | 19:11 |
| cschwede_ | that said, using tools like getput.py and collectl | 19:11 |
| cschwede_ | agreed, no new tool, but (better) docs and examples what to benchmark and things to watch for | 19:11 |
| notmyname | ya | 19:12 |
| notmyname | speaking of... | 19:12 |
| notmyname | I think the docs session went ok | 19:12 |
| acoles | cschwede_: i think mseger is putting a link to getput into the docs | 19:12 |
| notmyname | (creiht) | 19:12 |
| notmyname | acoles: already done | 19:12 |
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| acoles | notmyname: great | 19:12 |
| creiht | notmyname: yeah I have a lot on my todo list :) | 19:12 |
| notmyname | creiht: my list: | 19:13 |
| notmyname | refactor swift.openstack.org | 19:13 |
| notmyname | use 3 sections: app devs, deployers/ops, dev contributors | 19:13 |
| notmyname | make version docs apply to clear | 19:13 |
| notmyname | multinode install: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93788/ | 19:13 |
| notmyname | SAIO: add link to vagrant SAIO, different instructions for different distress | 19:13 |
| notmyname | undocumented areas: debugging tools, operating tools collection | 19:13 |
| notmyname | look in to oslosphinx | 19:13 |
| notmyname | idea: use the "file a bug for the docs on this page" js that the docs team has | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | there was a lot that came up asking for more and better docs I think | 19:13 |
| creiht | yeah | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | in general, there is a big need for education at a higher level too about what object storage is, where it's used, and why you should care | 19:14 |
| portante | yes | 19:14 |
| portante | and what it's benefits are | 19:14 |
| cschwede_ | yes, and especially benefits of swift | 19:15 |
| notmyname | and I've had a few conversations with different companies about that. so I hope we'll, as a community, make good progress there in the next few months | 19:15 |
| notmyname | cschwede_: naturally :-) | 19:15 |
| cschwede_ | it’s not just another object storage | 19:15 |
| notmyname | cschwede_: /topic set in -swift ;-) | 19:15 |
| portante | nice! | 19:16 |
| creiht | we should have called swift "store all the things" | 19:16 |
| portante | so be careful of what you say in this channel! | 19:16 |
| cschwede_ | notmyname: hehe, cool! | 19:16 |
| creiht | heh | 19:16 |
| notmyname | lol | 19:16 |
| notmyname | so far this week we've made progress on getting a -specs repo set up | 19:16 |
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| notmyname | I'll check on what needs to happen to get that finished | 19:17 |
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| notmyname | other follow-ups include what we decided for py3 | 19:17 |
| notmyname | chmouel will be working on getting a py3pep8 jobs set up as non-voting | 19:17 |
| notmyname | for swift | 19:17 |
| notmyname | once that passes, we'll fold it in to the existing linter job so it's gating and we don't revert syntax issues | 19:18 |
| notmyname | and then we just hold our breath for eventlet | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | ok, helping new contributors | 19:19 |
| notmyname | creiht you said you'd be able to tackle an improved doc for new contributors | 19:19 |
| notmyname | still up for that? | 19:19 |
| creiht | yeah | 19:19 |
| notmyname | great | 19:19 |
| elambert | as a new contributor (or potential new contributor) i'd like to help with that too | 19:19 |
| creiht | cool | 19:20 |
| notmyname | elambert: great! thanks | 19:20 |
| notmyname | one other thing we talked about is to (in an informal way) is to make use of a "nit" tag to be clear where a comment is "this would be nice but doesn't matter too much" | 19:20 |
| notmyname | so that our comments are clearer to people who haven't been contributing long | 19:20 |
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| portante | did we settle on mentors or sponsors or something? | 19:21 |
| notmyname | and also one other thing there... | 19:21 |
| notmyname | core sponsors | 19:21 |
| notmyname | portante: ya, that | 19:21 |
| notmyname | :-) | 19:21 |
| creiht | yeah I was thinking maybe it would make sense to integrate that into the specs stuff | 19:21 |
| notmyname | I think we were all interested in the idea | 19:21 |
| notmyname | creiht: sponsors? | 19:21 |
| creiht | so each spec would have a sponsor which would have related reviews | 19:21 |
| creiht | yeah | 19:21 |
| creiht | might be easier to track that way instead of gerrit | 19:22 |
| notmyname | I think that's a great idea to try | 19:22 |
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| creiht | but that leaves out the usual bug fixes | 19:22 |
| notmyname | I talked to the -infra team about it too | 19:22 |
| acoles | the specs themselves have to be +2'd, right? | 19:22 |
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| notmyname | acoles: ya. well, the specs have the same swift-core group as the code | 19:22 |
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| creiht | but maybe those don't need a sponsor? | 19:22 |
| notmyname | so gerrit can add a tag that shows up for a "core sponsor" thing. it's not great (and hard to describe via text). but it's something to consider | 19:23 |
| creiht | k | 19:23 |
| notmyname | my first idea was to keep a wiki page and start assigning open reviews to different cores | 19:23 |
| creiht | and I don't think all reviews need sponsors | 19:23 |
| notmyname | creiht: most likely not. I definitely thing all reviews do not need a spec | 19:24 |
| notmyname | *think | 19:24 |
| creiht | right | 19:24 |
| acoles | i was wondering whether +2'ing a spec implies (moral) obligation to review subsequent code? | 19:24 |
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| portante | sponsors are helpful for keeping complex things on track | 19:24 |
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| notmyname | but we should encourage people to use specs as much as possible | 19:24 |
| notmyname | acoles: I don't know yet. we haven't tried it yet :-) | 19:25 |
| notmyname | acoles: I think that's a reasonable start, actually | 19:25 |
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| acoles | notmyname: might slow down approval rate of specs :) | 19:25 |
| creiht | haha | 19:25 |
| notmyname | acoles: heh. good point | 19:25 |
| notmyname | never mind. that's a horrible idea! | 19:26 |
| notmyname | :-) | 19:26 |
| creiht | yeah I don't think every spec requires a sponsor either | 19:26 |
| notmyname | so the takeaway here, I think, is that I'll set up the wiki and start dividing up existing open patches among existing cores | 19:26 |
| notmyname | and that's something we can track in the weekly meetings | 19:26 |
| notmyname | sound ok? | 19:26 |
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| portante | yes | 19:27 |
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| acoles | notmyname: lets try it and see | 19:27 |
| notmyname | ok. I'll do that (number 3-ish on my list, after -specs and storage policies merge start) | 19:28 |
| creiht | notmyname: might want to try voluntary first | 19:28 |
| notmyname | creiht: no! you get zaitcev's PBE patch! ;-) | 19:28 |
| creiht | and figure out how to make it easier for someone to request a sponsor to help | 19:29 |
| notmyname | creiht: ya, voluntary start is good and then divide up what's left | 19:29 |
| notmyname | ok, that sounds like a good plan | 19:29 |
| notmyname | anything more on summit follow-up before we move to the storage policy merge plan? | 19:30 |
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| notmyname | hey! it's dfg! | 19:30 |
| dfg | hey! | 19:31 |
| notmyname | #topic storage policies merge plan | 19:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "storage policies merge plan (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:31 | |
| notmyname | it's actually just about almost finally here! | 19:31 |
| notmyname | we talked last week about how we are going to get storage policies on to master | 19:31 |
| notmyname | here's the rough draft: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/notmyname/7521817bd1027adc35a7/raw/609164665ec6c9ccdb0ee90a69f045df4081ca0a/gistfile1.txt | 19:31 |
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| notmyname | the important point is that by the end of this week, clayg should be able to propose the patch chain to master, feature/ec will not accept new stuff, and master will be in a freeze | 19:32 |
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| notmyname | then we all focus on reviewing the storage policy patches, and set them up to merge quickly one after the other | 19:33 |
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| cschwede_ | notmyname: are you going to send this to openstack-dev? | 19:33 |
| notmyname | cschwede_: yes, and -operators | 19:33 |
| cschwede_ | ok, thanks | 19:33 |
| notmyname | that's my rough draft. probably add a little to it | 19:33 |
| notmyname | are we still all in agreement about this plan? | 19:33 |
| cschwede_ | sounds good to me | 19:34 |
| notmyname | (If you don't say anything, I'm assuming you agree) | 19:34 |
| portante | I agree with that plan | 19:35 |
| notmyname | I think there are a couple of patches on feature/ec (like the docs one) that need to be reviewed and merged to feature/ec | 19:35 |
| notmyname | today or tomorrow | 19:36 |
| portante | yes | 19:36 |
| notmyname | now's the time to do that | 19:36 |
| notmyname | any other questions about what's happening around storage policies and how it's landing on master? | 19:36 |
| notmyname | naturally, I'd expect a formal Swift release after it lands | 19:36 |
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| elambert | whats the procedure for testing the merge? | 19:37 |
| notmyname | ok, let | 19:37 |
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| notmyname | elambert: same as normal testing of patches. pull it in to your dev or lab and run tests on it :-) | 19:38 |
| elambert | :-) | 19:38 |
| notmyname | elambert: we've got a lot of built-in tests. and there are others that some deployers have too | 19:38 |
| notmyname | and I hope they'll run those too | 19:38 |
| elambert | ok, so it will be run in anger before merge? | 19:38 |
| notmyname | I like that :-) | 19:39 |
| creiht | hah | 19:39 |
| notmyname | ok, let's move on. if there are other questions, feel free to ask me | 19:39 |
| * elambert nods | 19:39 | |
| notmyname | I have "Parallel object auditor patch: what else needs to be done?" on the agenda, but I don't know why I added that.... | 19:40 |
| notmyname | #topic Parallel object auditor patch: what else needs to be done? | 19:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Parallel object auditor patch: what else needs to be done? (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:40 | |
| notmyname | anyone? | 19:40 |
| otoolee | I added that :) | 19:40 |
| otoolee | The patch has been around for a while. | 19:40 |
| notmyname | otoolee: ah! what's up? what needs to be done | 19:40 |
| notmyname | otoolee: what's the link to the patch? | 19:40 |
| otoolee | I just wanted to know if anyone needs anything else done to or with it? | 19:40 |
| notmyname | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59778/ | 19:41 |
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| otoolee | Yes. | 19:41 |
| otoolee | Sorry, I was logging in and you beat me to it. | 19:42 |
| notmyname | creiht: you had some comments a while back on this. would you be able to take another look? | 19:42 |
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| creiht | well I'm still not fond of the idea :) | 19:42 |
| notmyname | heh | 19:42 |
| creiht | but as I told otoolee I'm just one dev | 19:42 |
| creiht | if others like the idea, by all means :) | 19:42 |
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| otoolee | Thanks creiht :) | 19:42 |
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| notmyname | otoolee: so, realistically, unless it gets some attention later this week, nothing will happen to it until after storage policies are merged | 19:43 |
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| otoolee | That's cool. | 19:43 |
| notmyname | looks like torgomatic was commenting on it too | 19:43 |
| otoolee | I just wanted to bring it to people's attention. | 19:43 |
| notmyname | otoolee: thanks | 19:43 |
| notmyname | if only there were a core sponsor for it.... ;-) | 19:44 |
| otoolee | I think that torgomatic was fine with it .... | 19:44 |
| otoolee | :) | 19:44 |
| creiht | sounds like notmyname is volunteering :) | 19:44 |
| notmyname | creiht: you only volunteer when you say something is easy :-) | 19:44 |
| creiht | lol | 19:44 |
| notmyname | so actually that reminds me of one other thing related to patches | 19:45 |
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| notmyname | creiht said that the priority reviews page has been helpful in the past | 19:45 |
| notmyname | I'll get back to updating that | 19:45 |
| notmyname | the summit etc kinda got me derailed there :-) | 19:45 |
| notmyname | #topic open discussion | 19:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:46 | |
| notmyname | anything else on your mind? | 19:46 |
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| notmyname | note the keystone token size mailing list thread | 19:47 |
| notmyname | interesting discussion there to track | 19:47 |
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| notmyname | last call... | 19:48 |
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| notmyname | thanks for coming! | 19:48 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 19:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:49 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 19:49:00 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-05-21-19.00.html | 19:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-05-21-19.00.txt | 19:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2014/swift.2014-05-21-19.00.log.html | 19:49 |
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| zaneb | #startmeeting heat | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 21 20:00:22 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is zaneb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 20:00 |
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| zaneb | #topic Raise your hand if you're not here | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Raise your hand if you're not here (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| radix | good afternoon | 20:00 |
| randallburt | o/ | 20:01 |
| pas-ha | o/ | 20:01 |
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| radix | ,o | 20:01 |
| jasond | o/ | 20:01 |
| lsmola2 | hello | 20:01 |
| shardy | o/ | 20:01 |
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| skraynev | hello all | 20:01 |
| spzala | Hi | 20:01 |
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| tango|2 | o/ | 20:01 |
| therve | Hey there | 20:01 |
| erecio | Hi | 20:01 |
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| iqster | Hello all - nice meeting a big part of the heat dev community at the summit last week. | 20:01 |
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| radix | yep, it was awesome :) | 20:02 |
| kebray | o/ I'm here. | 20:02 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: about? | 20:02 |
| tspatzier | hi all | 20:02 |
| bgorski | o/ | 20:02 |
| jpeeler | hey | 20:02 |
| zaneb | hey jpeeler, welcome back | 20:02 |
| stevebaker | o/ | 20:02 |
| jpeeler | thanks | 20:02 |
| zaneb | #topic Adding items to the agenda | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:02 | |
| zaneb | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda | 20:03 |
| zaneb | big turnout and a full agenda today :) | 20:03 |
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| zaneb | anybody got anything else? | 20:03 |
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| zaneb | #topic Alternate meeting time | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Alternate meeting time (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:04 | |
| wirehead_ | Oooh! Just in time to troll! :) | 20:04 |
| zaneb | I sent a mail out to the list about this | 20:04 |
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| zaneb | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-May/035480.html | 20:04 |
| zaneb | I want to try having the alternate meeting at 1200 UTC, starting next week | 20:05 |
| therve | +1 obviously :) | 20:05 |
| zaneb | if anybody wishes to enter into correspondence, let them do so now | 20:05 |
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| zaneb | #topic Rackspace 3rd-party CI job | 20:06 |
| pas-ha | +1 for 1200 UTC | 20:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rackspace 3rd-party CI job (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:06 | |
| stevebaker | I shall abstain, this meeting isn't for me | 20:06 |
| erecio | +1 | 20:06 |
| skraynev | + | 20:06 |
| SpamapS | o/ just running out the door, but wanted to let everybody know that there's a spec in-progress for Convergence here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/convergence and https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/Blueprints/Convergence . | 20:06 |
| shardy | +1 | 20:06 |
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| iqster | +1 | 20:06 |
| * SpamapS disappears | 20:06 | |
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| radix | SpamapS: hooray | 20:06 |
| zaneb | thanks SpamapS | 20:06 |
| andrew_plunk | hey | 20:06 |
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| zaneb | andrew_plunk: ah, perfect timing :) | 20:07 |
| andrew_plunk | ;) | 20:07 |
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| zaneb | so, I am strongly biased toward +1 for the Rackspace Jenkins to post 3rd party CI stuff to Gerrit | 20:08 |
| zaneb | only one question really | 20:08 |
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| wirehead_ | See, if it was an hour later, I'd totally join in during my morning tea, but I'm mostly here to troll. :) | 20:08 |
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| andrew_plunk | zaneb, there may be false negatives if downstream services are having problems | 20:08 |
| andrew_plunk | is the community ok with that? | 20:08 |
| zaneb | what percentage of failures are likely to be upstream problems vs. config problems | 20:08 |
| shardy | andrew_plunk: I assume it will be non-voting, at least initially? | 20:08 |
| stevebaker | andrew_plunk, that may well be the norm for 3rd-party CI | 20:08 |
| randallburt | shardy: I would hope so | 20:09 |
| zaneb | +1 for non-voting | 20:09 |
| * stevebaker shakes fist at XenServer CI | 20:09 | |
| andrew_plunk | sounds good to me shardy | 20:09 |
| zaneb | otherwise it can block upstream | 20:09 |
| shardy | randallburt: then I'm +1 on getting it going and seeing how it works out | 20:09 |
| randallburt | failures will most likely be downstream failures, but we could build some padding for that in the tests themselves | 20:09 |
| stevebaker | well, it can post a -1 on failure, voting isn't really a thing for 3rd party | 20:10 |
| jasond | yeah, it'd be under the Code-Review column | 20:10 |
| wirehead_ | Yeah, I have the shudder of experience at flaky downstreams causing test failures. It's a shudder unique to the layer at which we work. | 20:10 |
| shardy | stevebaker: Ok, so we can overrule it with +2/+A | 20:10 |
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| shardy | if it's obviously wrong that is ;) | 20:10 |
| randallburt | IIRC its mostly to make sure the v2 shim works, yes? | 20:11 |
| stevebaker | shardy, yeah, and some form of recheck triggering would be needed eventually | 20:11 |
| randallburt | or are we testing more than that? | 20:11 |
| stevebaker | randallburt, what cloud does it test against? a devstack? | 20:11 |
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| randallburt | Rackspace public cloud currently | 20:11 |
| stevebaker | randallburt, in standalone mode? | 20:11 |
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| randallburt | I don't think so. andrew_plunk? | 20:12 |
| andrew_plunk | in normal mode with an admin user stevebaker | 20:12 |
| pas-ha | you named your admin user stevebaker? :) | 20:12 |
| randallburt | lol | 20:12 |
| andrew_plunk | haha | 20:12 |
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| randallburt | no, just steve. | 20:12 |
| stevebaker | why not? | 20:12 |
| therve | Are the tests publicly available? | 20:12 |
| randallburt | therve: not currently. | 20:13 |
| randallburt | I think one of our QE folks is working on that, though | 20:13 |
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| therve | Okay. Ultimately it'd be cool to know what's going on if it fails | 20:13 |
| randallburt | therve: agreed | 20:13 |
| zaneb | andrew_plunk: I think you mentioned we need an official vote for the infra people to enable this? | 20:13 |
| andrew_plunk | to enable voting zaneb | 20:13 |
| stevebaker | +1 | 20:14 |
| andrew_plunk | If our jenkins is going to just comment then I don't think it matters | 20:14 |
| andrew_plunk | I will take an action item to get it set up today zaneb | 20:14 |
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| zaneb | #action andrew_plunk to set up a non-voting Rackspace CI Jenkins job against Heat | 20:15 |
| zaneb | capital | 20:15 |
| zaneb | thanks andrew_plunk | 20:15 |
| andrew_plunk | anytime :) | 20:15 |
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| radix | indeed, chap | 20:15 |
| zaneb | #topic Blueprint process | 20:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprint process (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:15 | |
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| zaneb | most projects seem to be switching away from the wiki and toward a blueprint repo | 20:16 |
| zaneb | do we want to follow? | 20:16 |
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| therve | +0. We do have some horrible outdated stuff in the wiki | 20:16 |
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| zaneb | launchpad is still peripherally involved btw | 20:16 |
| stevebaker | it seems like a good way of collaborating on the specifics of a spec | 20:16 |
| radix | it seems that would at least get more scrutiny on the blueprints | 20:16 |
| zaneb | but Gerrit is a pretty good tool for collaboration | 20:17 |
| therve | *cough* | 20:17 |
| zaneb | therve: not *great* | 20:17 |
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| therve | It make sense to align on the global process, and it seems to have some benefits | 20:17 |
| zaneb | but, you know, decent | 20:18 |
| shardy | The downside is more reviews though, right? | 20:18 |
| stevebaker | better than wiki/etherpad/mailinglist for certain things | 20:18 |
| * shardy looks at the review queue | 20:18 | |
| therve | I don't think we were specifically broken on that front, that's all | 20:18 |
| stevebaker | shardy, more reviews upfront, which means less reviews when the features land ;) | 20:18 |
| therve | shardy, Possibly better future review on features discussed though | 20:18 |
| randallburt | therve: agreed. The bp allows for a spec from the wiki and that's collaboratively edited. | 20:18 |
| shardy | I think it definitely makes sense for stuff like API specs and other interfaces | 20:18 |
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| randallburt | and aren't there comments/discussions on the wiki? | 20:19 |
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| zaneb | I don't want this to turn into a more formal process like some other projects have | 20:19 |
| randallburt | zaneb: +1 | 20:19 |
| stevebaker | I don't feel like I'm collaborating when I edit someone elses wiki | 20:19 |
| zaneb | but I do think gerrit is a good tool | 20:19 |
| erecio | zaneb, +1 | 20:19 |
| zaneb | I never use the wiki | 20:19 |
| jasond | zaneb: +1 i think people are good about asking for feedback on a spec when it's needed and just showing up with code when it's not | 20:20 |
| therve | The sad state of our wiki should be handled separately too | 20:20 |
| wirehead_ | The wiki makes me sad. | 20:20 |
| zaneb | jasond: ++ | 20:20 |
| shardy | sounds like we're mostly +1 on it then | 20:21 |
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| wirehead_ | I am actually a zillion times more fond of wikis than our present blueprint process. Although I understand that certain aspects — the semantically enabled chain of blueprint relationships, for example — are really awesom | 20:21 |
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| zaneb | I once saw someone on ask.openstack citing a 2-year-old wiki page as an answer | 20:21 |
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| therve | We should organize a wiki cleaning day or something | 20:22 |
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| stevebaker | wirehead_, our present blueprint process is wikis | 20:22 |
| stevebaker | wirehead_, and launchpad | 20:22 |
| zaneb | wirehead_: launchpad doesn't go away, but basically only I have to deal with it ;) | 20:22 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: there are a lot of bp's without wiki specs, though | 20:22 |
| wirehead_ | I think the launchpad is the part I like less. :) It seems to be a home of crushed dreams. | 20:22 |
| zaneb | lol | 20:23 |
| pas-ha | wirehead_: +1 | 20:23 |
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| therve | Hopefully that'll change soon | 20:23 |
| pas-ha | therve: storyboard? | 20:23 |
| randallburt | so ML/Wiki and then make zaneb deal with LP if we think its a thing to do? | 20:23 |
| stevebaker | zaneb, speaking of which, there are a lot of blueprints which are yet to experience the benign gaze of the PTL | 20:23 |
| therve | pas-ha, Yeah | 20:23 |
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| zaneb | stevebaker: Thierry isn't giving me grief about them until we have resolved this question ;) | 20:24 |
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| stevebaker | lol, ok | 20:24 |
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| stevebaker | so who wants to set up the specs repo? | 20:24 |
| zaneb | what I'd like to propose is that we move to a specs repo, but keep it extremely lightweight | 20:25 |
| stevebaker | zaneb, +1 | 20:25 |
| wirehead_ | Aren't we founded on rough consensus? | 20:25 |
| zaneb | ttx is talking about a script to push them into lp | 20:25 |
| pas-ha | zaneb: +1 | 20:25 |
| wirehead_ | +1 | 20:25 |
| radix | that would be handy | 20:25 |
| stevebaker | we can crank up the process when we have 400+ developers like nova | 20:25 |
| jasond | zaneb: +1 | 20:25 |
| erecio | zaneb, +1 | 20:25 |
| zaneb | randallburt: ^ how say you? | 20:25 |
| skraynev | zaneb: +1 | 20:25 |
| randallburt | one sec | 20:26 |
| randallburt | oh, ok. +1 | 20:26 |
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| bgorski | z+1 | 20:26 |
| shardy | +1 | 20:26 |
| tspatzier | +1 | 20:26 |
| wirehead_ | I think we might have a complete circle of love. Wow. | 20:26 |
| zaneb | #agreed Heat will move to a lightweight blueprint process using a specs repo | 20:27 |
| zaneb | ok, and now... | 20:27 |
| zaneb | who want to volunteer to set it up? ;) | 20:27 |
| therve | ... crickets ... | 20:27 |
| stevebaker | tumbleweeds | 20:27 |
| zaneb | #info repo name should be orch-specs or orchestration-specs, per decision of the cross-project meeting yesterday | 20:28 |
| cyli | what's involved in setting it up? | 20:28 |
| therve | cyli, Talking to our lovely infra people I think | 20:28 |
| zaneb | cyli: find another project's one, clone it, request that the infra team add it to openstack/ | 20:28 |
| stevebaker | cyli, probably just a infra config gerrit change | 20:28 |
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| wirehead_ | cyli: I can add a task to our sprint. :) | 20:29 |
| zaneb | we also need to decide on what will be validated, I think | 20:29 |
| stevebaker | or start with an empty repo and we can all add the initial files | 20:29 |
| zaneb | i.e. as little as possible ;) | 20:29 |
| cyli | I'll do it, so long as no one minds me asking stupid questions about how to do so here | 20:29 |
| zaneb | #action cyli to investigate setting up a specs repo | 20:29 |
| stevebaker | cyli, thanks. ask in #heat and #openstack-infra | 20:29 |
| zaneb | many thanks cyli | 20:29 |
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| cyli | :) | 20:30 |
| zaneb | #topic Feature proposal freeze | 20:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Feature proposal freeze (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:30 | |
| wirehead_ | I just patted cyli on the back. | 20:30 |
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| zaneb | do we want to do a Feature proposal freeze again? | 20:30 |
| zaneb | (IMO we do) | 20:30 |
| cyli | stevebaker: will do, thanks | 20:30 |
| kebray | hey, I'm late to the party.. .if launchpad stops getting used, how do non technical folks submit feature requests/suggestions? | 20:30 |
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| radix | kebray: launchpad will still be used with a spec repo | 20:31 |
| therve | zaneb, Definitely. | 20:31 |
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| kebray | radix ok.. thx. | 20:31 |
| zaneb | radix: well, there's a danger that no-one will look at it though | 20:31 |
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| therve | It went well last time AFAICT | 20:31 |
| zaneb | agreed | 20:31 |
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| randallburt | that danger is very high and very real | 20:31 |
| radix | zaneb: well, surely the PTL will continue? ;) | 20:31 |
| stevebaker | kebray, launchpad will be used until storyboard is ready. the specs repo is just to collaborate and store the text of the spec | 20:31 |
| zaneb | it sets the right expectations | 20:31 |
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| zaneb | radix: maybe not if a script manages it all ;) | 20:32 |
| radix | auto-PTL | 20:32 |
| radix | .sh | 20:32 |
| iqster | Is it the case that blueprints currently in the New state still have a shot of getting in? Or they need to be in the Approved state? | 20:32 |
| zaneb | kebray: blueprints are about implementation, so we'd expect implementers to be able to use Gerrit | 20:33 |
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| therve | iqster, You mean in for Juno? | 20:33 |
| stevebaker | cyli, a single change to http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/config/ should be all that is required | 20:33 |
| zaneb | iqster: everything has a shot of getting in if you can write it ;) | 20:34 |
| cyli | stevebaker: thanks | 20:34 |
| zaneb | maybe not a good shot... | 20:34 |
| iqster | neat :) ty | 20:34 |
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| zaneb | iqster: but if it's a significant change, you should be looking for early feedback | 20:34 |
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| stevebaker | zaneb, +1 for continuing the FPF, but it only slightly mitigates the problem of many features landing at once | 20:35 |
| zaneb | iqster: i.e. don't do more work than you're prepared to throw away until you think there's consensus | 20:35 |
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| zaneb | stevebaker: agreed, but I think it does a good job of communicating expectations | 20:36 |
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| zaneb | is anyone against the FPF? | 20:36 |
| stevebaker | yep | 20:36 |
| iqster | cool ... we have a patch/blueprint/spec for stack lifecycle plugpoints .. we wanted to get it in today but BillArnold was having some issues with git review | 20:37 |
| therve | Your agreement was badly timed I think :) | 20:37 |
| radix | heh heh | 20:37 |
| shardy | zaneb: I think it's a good idea, we have to draw a line somewhere, although I actually think it makes the late-cycle feature rush worse if anything | 20:37 |
| therve | shardy, Worse a bit sooner | 20:37 |
| therve | I think it'd be the same without freeze except before the actual release | 20:37 |
| shardy | therve: ha, true ;) | 20:37 |
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| radix | we're discussing a freeze for *proposals* to be accepted, right, not *implementations*? | 20:37 |
| tspatzier | iqster: what kind of issues was he having? | 20:38 |
| radix | (or proposals to be proposed, perhaps) | 20:38 |
| shardy | radix: yes, typically a few weeks before the freeze for implementation to be merged | 20:38 |
| stevebaker | we're stuck with something like this until all of openstack moves to a CD | 20:38 |
| shardy | so we can review the glut of patches ;) | 20:38 |
| stevebaker | based model | 20:38 |
| zaneb | radix: proposals means patches proposed to Gerrit | 20:38 |
| radix | oh | 20:38 |
| zaneb | radix: i.e. implementations, but not necessarily merged yet | 20:38 |
| radix | ok, I completely misinterpreted "proposal" to mean something like "blueprint" | 20:39 |
| zaneb | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 20:39 |
| zaneb | so that ^ is the release schedule | 20:39 |
| stevebaker | the aim of the FPF is to ease the load on the core reviewers at feature freeze time, because some of the reviewing will be done already | 20:39 |
| shardy | radix: The blueprints should be proposed much earlier for major stuff, but sometimes minor stuff can be added near FPF if there is code ready | 20:39 |
| zaneb | FPF is the week of August 21st | 20:39 |
| zaneb | #info FPF is the week of August 21st | 20:39 |
| radix | sounds reasonable | 20:40 |
| radix | I don't see why FPF would make a rush worse | 20:40 |
| erecio | whats FPF? | 20:40 |
| radix | erecio: Feature Proposal Freeze | 20:40 |
| zaneb | erecio: see #topic | 20:40 |
| stevebaker | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/FeatureProposalFreeze | 20:40 |
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| zaneb | I think we have a lazy consensus | 20:41 |
| zaneb | #agreed Heat will observe the project-wide Feature Proposal Freeze date again in Juno | 20:41 |
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| wirehead_ | Heh. | 20:41 |
| zaneb | #topic Autoscaling roadmap | 20:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Autoscaling roadmap (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:41 | |
| zaneb | is shadower here? | 20:42 |
| zaneb | no | 20:42 |
| erecio | thanks. | 20:42 |
| shardy | radix: any deadline creates a mad rush when folks realize they've not finished their feature and it's targeted at the next release, which results in attention from release managers and PTLs | 20:42 |
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| radix | shardy: but wouldn't there be a rush at the actual feature freeze then? | 20:42 |
| radix | zaneb: is there a particular question behind this agenda item? | 20:42 |
| stevebaker | and god, and ttx | 20:42 |
| radix | I have been curious about other use cases for autoscaling | 20:42 |
| zaneb | ok, I'd like to set up a discussion between radix, shadower, shardy and anyone else interested | 20:42 |
| radix | who's shadower? | 20:43 |
| zaneb | to discuss what our plans are for autoscaling in Juno | 20:43 |
| stevebaker | Thomas Sedovic | 20:43 |
| radix | ah ok | 20:43 |
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| zaneb | radix: Tomas Sedovic. ex-Heat and now Tuskaer developer | 20:43 |
| zaneb | Tuskar* | 20:43 |
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| zaneb | moving on... | 20:43 |
| radix | *my* plans right now is to just do some refactoring of Heat autoscaling (along with cyli) and also help out with the convergence effort | 20:44 |
| radix | which I think plays into practical use of autoscaling | 20:44 |
| zaneb | radix: ok | 20:44 |
| stevebaker | is a separate API still a thing we're doing? | 20:44 |
| zaneb | Tuskar also has some immediate issues with quiescing and victim-selection | 20:44 |
| zaneb | on scale-down | 20:44 |
| radix | ok, that sounds like some good stuff | 20:44 |
| iqster | one shortcoming we have observed in heat autoscaling is that if vms die, the auto-scaling doesn't react to it | 20:44 |
| shardy | I discussed with wirehead_ and radix about Tuskar (and other's) requirement for evacuation on scaledown and parameters to choose victims | 20:45 |
| radix | iqster: yep, that's what I mean about convergence being necessary for practical autoscaling | 20:45 |
| iqster | i presume this is a known defect? | 20:45 |
| shardy | I may look at those unless anyone gets to them first | 20:45 |
| zaneb | iqster: convergence is the long-term plan to fix that | 20:45 |
| radix | iqster: also for practical heat usage in general ;-) | 20:45 |
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| * shardy not planning to get to them anytime soon | 20:45 | |
| radix | stevebaker: I think... there is less urgency behind that idea | 20:46 |
| zaneb | radix: I am also keen to see refactoring continue to happen | 20:46 |
| radix | stevebaker: and more behind getting heat to be more usable :) | 20:46 |
| zaneb | we can't wait for convergence to come to us | 20:46 |
| iqster | at the summit, i didn't get a sense that convergence was defn in Juno | 20:46 |
| radix | zaneb: agreed, yeah | 20:46 |
| zaneb | we have to start pushing towards it now | 20:46 |
| radix | zaneb: cyli and I have a sprint task to work fix up the factoring of AutoScalingResourceGroup | 20:46 |
| stevebaker | I'm off to do the school run \o | 20:46 |
| zaneb | iqster: convergence will certainly not be complete in Juno | 20:46 |
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| radix | iqster: but autoscaling isn't going to be able to react to servers randomly dying until convergence happens | 20:47 |
| therve | Have some faith! | 20:47 |
| iqster | doh! | 20:47 |
| zaneb | iqster: maybe in L | 20:47 |
| iqster | so ... no reactive autoscaling in Juno it seems :( | 20:47 |
| shardy | iqster: It's a huge amount of work, we'll have to take it in several steps and it depends on who shows up to help | 20:47 |
| therve | iqster, Please help by reviewing and fixing bugs! | 20:47 |
| iqster | That i don't doubt | 20:47 |
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| zaneb | but things will continue to get better | 20:48 |
| zaneb | we're making continuous progress | 20:48 |
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| iqster | will do ... we'd like to help... speaking for BillArnold and myslef here :) | 20:48 |
| radix | zaneb, stevebaker: anyway I don't think there are other big pushers for the autoscaling API other than the rackspace-autoscale team, if there *are* I would love to know about them | 20:48 |
| zaneb | radix: I think the API is the icing on the cake | 20:49 |
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| radix | yep | 20:49 |
| stevebaker | radix, ok, lets park it until someone cares enough to do it then | 20:49 |
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| zaneb | radix: all of the preceding steps are the important ones | 20:49 |
| shardy | radix: most folks I've spoken to care primarily about the features, not the API per-se | 20:49 |
| zaneb | at that point the API is easy | 20:49 |
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| radix | right | 20:49 |
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| zaneb | (also more people would probably be interested if they knew about it) | 20:49 |
| radix | I was just confirming that :) it's something we want so we can basically stop maintaining our own service | 20:49 |
| zaneb | I'd like to see it happen because autoscaling is useful independently of Heat, just like other OpenStack services | 20:50 |
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| zaneb | #topic Critical issues sync | 20:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Critical issues sync (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:51 | |
| zaneb | lifeless: o/ | 20:51 |
| zaneb | shardy suggested we add this as a recurring agenda item | 20:51 |
| * stevebaker *really* goes now. just when its getting interesting | 20:51 | |
| stevebaker | can it be at the start of the agenda? | 20:51 |
| shardy | So I found this yesterday | 20:51 |
| zaneb | so that we can all get in sync on critical bugs | 20:51 |
| shardy | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/heat/+bug/1321303 | 20:51 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1321303 in heat "engine broken with multiple workers w/qpid" [High,In progress] | 20:52 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: will there be time for anything else if we do that? | 20:52 |
| radix | yeah... I gotta run too, sorry ;- ) | 20:52 |
| shardy | multiple workers are broken with qpid | 20:52 |
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| zaneb | (this is particularly for the benefit of TripleO) | 20:52 |
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| randallburt | shardy: is this just when we fork multiple processes on a box or does it affect multi-engine in general? | 20:52 |
| shardy | I *think* I have a fix, but will need review feedback, particularly from jasond as it changes how the EnginListener works | 20:52 |
| shardy | randallburt: only forked workers, multi-engine works OK | 20:53 |
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| stevebaker | zaneb, the meeting nazi can time-limit it | 20:53 |
| randallburt | shardy: k, thanks | 20:53 |
| BillArnold | shardy, why heat engine workers and not other workers e.g. nova conductor? | 20:53 |
| * zaneb looks around for the meeting nazi | 20:53 | |
| shardy | although see my comment about the watch threads, which I am also looking at fixing | 20:53 |
| jasond | shardy: no problem, will keep an eye out for your fix | 20:54 |
| shardy | BillArnold: because we wrote it wrong, AFAICT, but I'm still digging into why | 20:54 |
| shardy | anyway, any other issues we need to know about, e.g for TripleO or anything else? | 20:54 |
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| erecio | sdf | 20:55 |
| therve | shardy, I wonder how that forking thing will change with oslo.messaging | 20:55 |
| therve | We'll see how it goes I guess | 20:55 |
| shardy | therve: yeah I was wondering the same thing, not had time to properly look at sdake's patch yet | 20:56 |
| zaneb | <lifeless> zaneb: we're still trying to get the bottom of this 2 minute delay between deployments being created | 20:56 |
| zaneb | that ^ was posted in #heat | 20:56 |
| shardy | therve: my plan it to fix the immediate problem, then potentially look at a bigger refactor | 20:56 |
| therve | shardy, The patch has been reverted fwiw | 20:56 |
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| shardy | therve: I mean the problem that you can't specify multiple workers with qpid | 20:57 |
| shardy | zaneb: do we have a bug reference? | 20:57 |
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| zaneb | not that I know of | 20:57 |
| zaneb | but stevebaker might know more | 20:57 |
| zaneb | something about large numbers of calls to Nova for get_attr | 20:58 |
| zaneb | 2 minutes | 20:58 |
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| BillArnold | zaneb, is this extra keystone work? using the fake hypervisor driver i'm seeing like a factor of 5 slowdown before the heat engine returns from a create call relative to havana | 20:59 |
| BillArnold | and keystone is being hammered | 21:00 |
| zaneb | BillArnold: interesting | 21:00 |
| shardy | BillArnold: bug with details please :) | 21:00 |
| BillArnold | zaneb same problem maybe? | 21:00 |
| zaneb | can't be helping | 21:00 |
| zaneb | please do raise a bug for that | 21:00 |
| BillArnold | k | 21:00 |
| zaneb | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 21 21:01:09 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-05-21-20.00.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-05-21-20.00.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2014/heat.2014-05-21-20.00.log.html | 21:01 |
| zaneb | everyone back to #heat | 21:01 |
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| zaneb | thanks y'all | 21:01 |
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| mike-grima | Hello. Is the OpenStack Neutron meeting today? | 22:31 |
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