| devananda | #startmeeting db | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Nov 2 00:00:06 2012 UTC. The chair is devananda. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 00:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 00:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'db' | 00:00 |
| dragondm | Hello! | 00:00 |
| devananda | hi all! | 00:00 |
| dripton | hi | 00:00 |
| devananda | so who all is here? | 00:00 |
| jog0 | o/ | 00:00 |
| * dragondm waves | 00:00 | |
| * devananda hopes others trickle in | 00:01 | |
| * dragondm thinks likewise | 00:01 | |
| devananda | there are 4 big topics from the summit, and jog0 added 2 items to the agenda | 00:01 |
| devananda | lets see how quickly we can go :) | 00:02 |
| devananda | #topic db-common / oslo | 00:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "db-common / oslo" | 00:02 | |
| devananda | anyone here to update on db-common? | 00:02 |
| devananda | :( | 00:03 |
| devananda | let's try this another way since it's just 3 of us for now | 00:03 |
| devananda | #topic open discussion | 00:03 |
| sdague | <= just got here | 00:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion" | 00:03 | |
| jog0 | lets start with an easy one | 00:04 |
| jog0 | nova/db/api allows for more then one nova-compute managing a single host | 00:05 |
| jog0 | do we still need that? https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/db/sqlalchemy/api.py#L380 | 00:05 |
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| dripton | Looks like nobody is sure. | 00:06 |
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| dragondm | *blink* I can't think of a good use case... | 00:06 |
| sdague | I'd guess no, where's it actually used? | 00:06 |
| devananda | i can't think of any reason for it either | 00:06 |
| dripton | Is there significant benefit to removing it? | 00:06 |
| sdague | that's got to have feedback from some of the nova core folks though. I'd say suggest a remove patch and see what people say :) | 00:06 |
| jog0 | dripton: lets confusing code | 00:07 |
| jog0 | sdague: I agree | 00:07 |
| dripton | agreed, but it's a compatibility change so you might get pushback. Worth a try. | 00:07 |
| devananda | ack-grep for it... lots of hits outside of db/api | 00:07 |
| dragondm | It's used in a few places, but many parts of the code just do [0] on the return | 00:07 |
| dragondm | i.e. nova/compute/api.py | 00:07 |
| devananda | scheduler/manage and scheduler/driver as well | 00:08 |
| jog0 | right | 00:08 |
| devananda | i'm not sure if it's in their plans, but i wonder if it would have any use to baremetal driver | 00:08 |
| jog0 | I can propose a patch and see how it goes | 00:08 |
| jog0 | AFAIK bare metal goes the other way | 00:08 |
| dragondm | Plus I can think of things that would produce odd results architecturally if there was more than 1 compute on the host. | 00:08 |
| jog0 | instead of multiple services controlling a single node, its a one service controlling multiple nodes | 00:09 |
| dragondm | Yah, I can see multiple hosts on a compute, but not the reverse. | 00:09 |
| devananda | jog0: yes, they do that currently | 00:09 |
| devananda | and had to add an extra "node" field to accomodate that | 00:09 |
| devananda | however i can see a need for the opposite at some point | 00:09 |
| sdague | I guess that was actually a use case that came up, instead of doing the bare metal the way it's done, just run a bunch of computes on one host, each talking to a physical node | 00:09 |
| devananda | ie, >1 compute node sharing control over the same group of hw resources | 00:10 |
| devananda | otherwise 1 n-cpu instance is a SPoF for a whole _lot_ of hw | 00:10 |
| devananda | afaik NTT isn't doing that yet, but i don't see another solution, and I know they eventually want HA | 00:10 |
| devananda | sdague: yea, that came up but is terrible :) | 00:11 |
| jog0 | devananda: true, but although the DB supports this model the code doesn't at all | 00:11 |
| devananda | try scaling that to 1000's of hw nodes | 00:11 |
| dragondm | don't want to do that. | 00:11 |
| sdague | devananda: hey, just saying :) | 00:11 |
| dragondm | (That's the architecture of the pre-Nova rackspace code. It dosen't scale) | 00:11 |
| devananda | fair 'nuf :) | 00:12 |
| devananda | moving on? | 00:12 |
| jog0 | devananda: wouldn't it make more sense to do the bare metal provisioning nodes as a RR queue? like the scheduler or network? | 00:12 |
| dragondm | +1 | 00:12 |
| devananda | jog0: afaik different groups want to do schedulng in different ways for baremetal... | 00:12 |
| * devananda is easily distracted... | 00:13 | |
| jog0 | +1 moving on | 00:13 |
| * dragondm nods | 00:13 | |
| dripton | next topic? | 00:13 |
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| devananda | db-archiving and db-cleanup are the most interesting to me right now :) | 00:13 |
| devananda | #topic db-cleanup | 00:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "db-cleanup" | 00:13 | |
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| devananda | i've posted a doc with some guidelines on using session and transactions | 00:14 |
| devananda | and starting to work through db/sqlalchemy/api.py bringing things into line with that | 00:14 |
| dripton | do you have a link to the doc? | 00:14 |
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| devananda | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/14966/ | 00:14 |
| dragondm | It would be *very* nice to not create a new session for each db call. | 00:15 |
| devananda | where to put the doc was briefly discussed in nova meeting earlier today | 00:15 |
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| devananda | my feeling is it should become part of db-common | 00:15 |
| devananda | so for now, living in session.py makes sense to me | 00:15 |
| devananda | as that will, aiui, get absorbed by db-common | 00:16 |
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| sdague | devananda: so most of that low level mapping is to mysql, any idea on how some of those things map in the pgsql case? | 00:16 |
| devananda | sdague: not really, no | 00:16 |
| devananda | i'd love input from someone who does | 00:16 |
| devananda | dragondm: yes. and to avoid creating transactions just for a single write :) | 00:17 |
| sdague | honestly, I don't know either. But as we try to make pgsql a first class citizen I'm a little concerned about overoptimizing the way sqlalchemy works to get mysql behavior right | 00:17 |
| dragondm | Plus the whole detatched object issue... | 00:17 |
| devananda | any pgsql guys are welcome to chime in // help with that optimization | 00:18 |
| devananda | i'm just doing what i know, which is mysql ;) | 00:18 |
| sdague | fair :) | 00:18 |
| dragondm | I am familliar w/ both | 00:18 |
| devananda | dragondm: sounds like you just volunteered :) | 00:18 |
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| dragondm | I can look it over. | 00:18 |
| devananda | #action dragondm to make sure session optimizations wont kill pgsql | 00:19 |
| sdague | hopefully that gets easier soon, as there is devstack patch I need to review that will let it install pgsql | 00:19 |
| dripton | sdague: excellent idea | 00:19 |
| devananda | sdague: ++ | 00:19 |
| devananda | anything else on db-cleanup? | 00:20 |
| jog0 | yes | 00:20 |
| sdague | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/15224/ if anyone is interested in helping validate it | 00:20 |
| jog0 | two things | 00:20 |
| jog0 | the db api has been added piecemeal over time | 00:21 |
| dragondm | It's a junk drawer | 00:21 |
| jog0 | and can use a good makeover | 00:21 |
| jog0 | such as remove duplicate DB APIs | 00:21 |
| dragondm | +1000 | 00:22 |
| jog0 | or ones that have overlapping functionality etc | 00:22 |
| dripton | Can we do it safely without breaking out-of-tree users of the API? | 00:22 |
| dripton | Or do we need a deprecation period? | 00:22 |
| jog0 | dripton: nova/db/api is not a stable public API | 00:22 |
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| jog0 | so AFAIK we can do whatever we want | 00:22 |
| dripton | ok | 00:22 |
| dragondm | also +1000 | 00:22 |
| jog0 | so to start with perhaps we can break down the API to categories and review the code and make a list of what can be removed | 00:23 |
| jog0 | the calls are broken down into categories with '#####' between them | 00:24 |
| devananda | db/sqlalchemy/api is already fairly well organized | 00:24 |
| dragondm | eventually to be moved to their own modules? | 00:24 |
| sdague | jog0: is there a blueprint in for it? Agree it would be good to get technical debt out of there | 00:24 |
| jog0 | I count 43 dividers in the code | 00:24 |
| jog0 | sdague: for now its in db-cleanup | 00:24 |
| jog0 | unless we want to break it out | 00:24 |
| sdague | it probably makes sense to break up db-cleanup into more discrete tasks | 00:25 |
| devananda | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/db-cleanup | 00:25 |
| jog0 | sdague: I agree, db-cleanup is a catch all until we are able to break down everything | 00:25 |
| devananda | sdague: ++. so far i see 2 sub-tasks | 00:26 |
| devananda | sessions/transactions and api cruft | 00:26 |
| jog0 | ++ | 00:26 |
| sdague | blueprints can have deps, so you could make other blueprints that are the prereqs for cleanup | 00:26 |
| dripton | I'll volunteer to look for any unused functions in api.py and make a patch to remove them. | 00:26 |
| sdague | so you still get them collected together, but they are small enough that you could say one was done at grizzly-2, for instance | 00:26 |
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| jog0 | dripton: I don't think too many are unused -- I did that test a while back, but some may be able to be consolidated | 00:27 |
| devananda | #action dripton hunt for unused api calls | 00:27 |
| devananda | dripton: thanks :) | 00:27 |
| dripton | jog0: if I don't find any then that's okay -- it won't take too long | 00:27 |
| jog0 | devananda: another action item for what sdague said | 00:27 |
| jog0 | dripton: agreed | 00:27 |
| devananda | another aspect of api cleanup jog0 brought up earlier is objects leaking out | 00:28 |
| devananda | #action create add'l bps and link them under db-cleanup | 00:28 |
| jog0 | the plan there was to add a debug version of nova/db/api that would introspect all return values and hunt for sqlalchemy objects | 00:28 |
| jog0 | unless someone has a better idea ... | 00:29 |
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| jog0 | I can write the patch and get a list of all the abstraction violations for next week | 00:30 |
| devananda | ++ | 00:30 |
| devananda | #action jog0 find db/api abstraction violations | 00:30 |
| devananda | moving on, since cleanup is an unfortunately huge topic ... | 00:31 |
| devananda | #topic db-archiving | 00:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "db-archiving" | 00:31 | |
| devananda | archiving was a pretty lively session at the summit :) | 00:31 |
| devananda | i think at least 3 different solutions were proposed | 00:31 |
| jog0 | if you thought db cleanup was big… archiving is even bigger | 00:31 |
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| devananda | in my eyes, archiving is a part of cleanup ;) | 00:32 |
| devananda | there's code cruft, and there's data cruft ... | 00:32 |
| devananda | deleted=1 needs to go | 00:32 |
| dripton | Is there anyone who actually likes soft deletes? | 00:32 |
| dragondm | +1 | 00:32 |
| dragondm | And real constraints would be nice. | 00:32 |
| dripton | Someone put them in, so someone must like them? | 00:32 |
| devananda | yes!! +++ | 00:32 |
| devananda | i believe Paul Carlton was presenting their way of using an EVENT that copies deleted=1 records to a shadow table | 00:33 |
| dripton | and then deletes the rows after they're archived? | 00:33 |
| devananda | no | 00:33 |
| devananda | turns out some large companies believe they can't ever throw away records | 00:34 |
| dragondm | And there are some places where old data can just be deleted. | 00:34 |
| sdague | dripton: I think it's part of the eventual consistency strategy. There are plenty of times where things communicate through the database, and if the row just isn't there, it would go weird | 00:34 |
| dkehn | seems like a way to offer auditing, but over time emcumbers the db | 00:34 |
| dragondm | Nova is not a historical record. | 00:34 |
| * dripton nods | 00:34 | |
| dkehn | and definately will slow down the db if you don't move them to backup tables | 00:34 |
| dkehn | true | 00:35 |
| devananda | sdague: so that is an interesting point | 00:35 |
| devananda | sdague: do you know what parts of nova actually need to read deleted=1 records? | 00:35 |
| devananda | as in, what would actually break if things were deleted? | 00:35 |
| sdague | devananda: I know at one point there was a reference to flavors that broke because of that | 00:35 |
| jog0 | devananda: I think that was one of our action items from the summit | 00:36 |
| sdague | I don't know of an active one at the moment, but I'm guessing they are hiding in there | 00:36 |
| sdague | no-db-compute makes it better | 00:36 |
| dragondm | Perhaps that info should simply be copied to the instance on create? | 00:36 |
| jog0 | one is simplue usage report | 00:36 |
| jog0 | simple * | 00:36 |
| dripton | So do we wait until after no-db-compute is done, then try to change soft deletes to real deletes? | 00:37 |
| sdague | but there at least needs to be some audit to figure out how busted things would get | 00:37 |
| devananda | dripton: i'm not sure how no-db-compute helps. that is only abstracting the db access away from n-cpu to some middle tier | 00:37 |
| devananda | the same db access is needed, aiui | 00:37 |
| jog0 | sdague: sounds like you volunteered | 00:37 |
| sdague | jog0: sadly, too many tasks on my plate right now :P | 00:38 |
| sdague | once I'm not behind the 8 ball on v3 api, I'll consider :) | 00:38 |
| devananda | ok, seems like no action on that for now, moving on? | 00:39 |
| jog0 | git grep "read_deleted='yes'" | wc -l = 21 | 00:40 |
| devananda | jog0: look for "true" as well | 00:40 |
| jog0 | git grep "read_deleted=\"yes\"" | wc -l = 33 | 00:40 |
| devananda | now you're just making me sad :( | 00:40 |
| jog0 | lets move on for now, lets talk shadow table trigger | 00:41 |
| jog0 | I think we can punt on some of the read_deleted cases for now | 00:41 |
| jog0 | and hit the low hanging fruit first | 00:41 |
| devananda | jog0: you have a good idea what said low-hanging fruit is? | 00:42 |
| jog0 | devananda: sadly no, will have to go through the tables and correlate the read_deleted | 00:43 |
| devananda | jog0: think it would be worth just spec'ing it and letting it sit for someone to pick up? | 00:44 |
| jog0 | dripton: perhaps you can look for those while hunting for unused API calls | 00:44 |
| dripton | Most of the read_deleted are in api.py | 00:44 |
| dripton | I'll take a look while in there. | 00:45 |
| jog0 | sweet | 00:45 |
| devananda | great | 00:45 |
| devananda | moving on | 00:45 |
| devananda | #topic db-common | 00:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "db-common" | 00:46 | |
| devananda | i haven't been invovled much in ^ so i'll just open the floor :) | 00:46 |
| jog0 | devananda: action item for dripton ^ | 00:46 |
| devananda | jog0: ah, thx | 00:46 |
| devananda | #action dripton look for read_deleted low-hanging-fruit while reviewing db/api.py | 00:46 |
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| devananda | anything on db-common? if not, i'll move on to no-db-compute | 00:47 |
| devananda | #topic no-db-compute | 00:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "no-db-compute" | 00:48 | |
| devananda | again, open floor | 00:48 |
| devananda | since i haven't done anything with no-db-compute yet | 00:48 |
| dripton | I know rbryant is working on it, but he's not here. | 00:49 |
| jog0 | devananda: can you propse a draft of the shadow table trigger? for db-archiving? | 00:49 |
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| devananda | jog0: that'll be a pretty big migration, creating N tables and N triggers | 00:50 |
| jog0 | how about just for one table | 00:50 |
| devananda | that i can do :) | 00:50 |
| jog0 | just a WIP version to get some feedback on | 00:50 |
| jog0 | see if people like it etc. | 00:50 |
| dkehn | devananda, and getting triggers to be compatible across differenets DBs (i.e. psql) careful | 00:51 |
| dripton | I don't currently see any triggers in the migrations directory. | 00:51 |
| devananda | #action devananda make draft review of on-delete trigger for just one table | 00:51 |
| devananda | dkehn: how familiar are you with pgsql? want to help? :) | 00:51 |
| dragondm | (we barely have indexes :( ) | 00:51 |
| devananda | #topic db-archiving | 00:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "db-archiving" | 00:51 | |
| devananda | dragondm: as of folsom, there should be a _lot_ more indexes | 00:51 |
| dragondm | True. We probably need more, ho. | 00:52 |
| dkehn | devananda, I have build migrations tools between the two in the paste , yes I can help, but I wouldn't say I'm and expert | 00:52 |
| dkehn | s/paste/past | 00:52 |
| devananda | dragondm: about mid-folsom, i reviewed all the queries in db/api and proposed indexes for all of them that were missing | 00:52 |
| devananda | dragondm: so unless a lot of new db access patters were added, we /should/ be pretty good right now | 00:53 |
| devananda | *patterns | 00:53 |
| dragondm | Ah | 00:53 |
| devananda | #action dkehn assist making on-delete trigger compatible with pgsql | 00:53 |
| devananda | #topic open discussion | 00:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion" | 00:54 | |
| dragondm | devananda: right, sorry, long day :P | 00:54 |
| jog0 | what about a different meeting time? | 00:54 |
| devananda | ++ | 00:54 |
| dkehn | ++ | 00:55 |
| dripton | + | 00:55 |
| devananda | jog0: what do you have in mind? | 00:55 |
| jog0 | how about one hour earlier? | 00:55 |
| devananda | (answering myself) 2hr earlier looks clear on the OS iCal | 00:55 |
| jog0 | or 2 | 00:55 |
| dripton | Does the nova meeting often run long? | 00:55 |
| clarkb | for those in the US the time change this weekend will move it an hour | 00:55 |
| dripton | They are 3 hours before us. | 00:56 |
| clarkb | (US less Arizona and Hawaii) | 00:56 |
| devananda | dripton: they ran a few minutes long today, but that's just one data point. | 00:56 |
| jog0 | devananda: usually they run very short | 00:57 |
| clarkb | I think it moves back an hour so you get at least one hour for free | 00:57 |
| dripton | Then 2 hours earlier should be safe. | 00:57 |
| jog0 | well all meetings are scheduled on UTC | 00:57 |
| jog0 | so the time between meetings is always absolute | 00:57 |
| clarkb | ya so the shift is relative to you not UTC | 00:57 |
| devananda | #action devananda move meeting up two hours, update wiki and iCal, notify -dev list | 00:57 |
| dragondm | +1 | 00:58 |
| jog0 | +1 | 00:58 |
| dripton | + | 00:58 |
| dkehn | + | 00:58 |
| sdague | +1 | 00:58 |
| devananda | ok, thanks all | 01:00 |
| devananda | #endmeeting | 01:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 01:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Nov 2 01:01:47 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 01:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db/2012/db.2012-11-02-00.00.html | 01:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db/2012/db.2012-11-02-00.00.txt | 01:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db/2012/db.2012-11-02-00.00.log.html | 01:01 |
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| jog0 | o/ | 01:02 |
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