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| renuka | shall we start the volume meeting? | 18:00 |
|---|---|---|
| renuka | do we have the volume folks here? | 18:00 |
| vladimir3p | hi | 18:02 |
| vladimir3p | is there anybody else? | 18:03 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: hi, i am not sure | 18:03 |
| vladimir3p | sorry, I missed couple previous meetings | 18:04 |
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| DuncanT | Hi | 18:04 |
| DuncanT | Sorry, just got here | 18:04 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: that's alright | 18:04 |
| renuka | #startmeeting | 18:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 17 18:04:55 2011 UTC. The chair is renuka. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 18:04 |
| renuka | #topic openstack volume | 18:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "openstack volume" | 18:05 | |
| renuka | vladimir3p: did you have a chance to decide on whether you could implement the scheduler? | 18:05 |
| vladimir3p | yes, I will do it | 18:05 |
| vladimir3p | are there any other volunteers? | 18:05 |
| renuka | did not hear back from anyone | 18:06 |
| vladimir3p | :-) | 18:06 |
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| renuka | do you have an estimate of when you could start, how long it might take, etc? | 18:06 |
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| vladimir3p | we were quite busy with our internal tasks | 18:07 |
| vladimir3p | most likely closer to the end of next week I will have time to start it | 18:07 |
| vladimir3p | ah, it will be a thanksgiving | 18:08 |
| vladimir3p | so, week after that | 18:08 |
| renuka | right :) and how much work do you think it is? | 18:08 |
| vladimir3p | IMHO, max couple of days :-) | 18:08 |
| vladimir3p | I will actually need to extend the new distributed scheduler | 18:09 |
| vladimir3p | to allow operations with volumes as well | 18:09 |
| renuka | right, did you get a chance to look at the meeting minutes/logs for the affinity work? | 18:10 |
| vladimir3p | sorry, had no chance to look at them | 18:10 |
| vladimir3p | can you pls briefly summarize what you've decided? | 18:10 |
| vladimir3p | or I can take a look later | 18:10 |
| renuka | DuncanT: would you like to give a summary/update? | 18:11 |
| renuka | Not sure if he is around, the blueprint is here: http://wiki.openstack.org/VolumeAffinity | 18:12 |
| DuncanT | I've not had chance to start on anything yet, and I've not yet heard back on a definitive answer on generic key/value .v. adding a new named field | 18:12 |
| vladimir3p | I've seen this BP | 18:13 |
| renuka | so i think we agreed that we should have, at create, a field for affinity and anti-affinity | 18:13 |
| DuncanT | The basics of it are in the blueprint though - I was hoping to get vladimir's opinion on whether it is just a special case of general free-form constraints? | 18:13 |
| renuka | which expresses the volumes/instances to which affinity/anti-affinity exists | 18:13 |
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| renuka | for example affinity: vol-0000001, i-000006 | 18:14 |
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| vladimir3p | I agree that it is a special case. The question if we would like to address the afinity/anti-af in "general" way or just allow vendors to implement it by their own | 18:14 |
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| vladimir3p | I can imagine the discussion re: what afinitiy/anti-afinity rules may have higher priorities, etc | 18:15 |
| DuncanT | renuka: That's certainly the the approach I'm assuming, but vish was going to check with the API folks as to whether a generic key-value pair system was appropriate instead since placement rules in general are hard to predict and we don't want to be adding ten million new fields | 18:15 |
| vladimir3p | like if you indicate both affinity to vol and instance - which one is the preferred one | 18:15 |
| DuncanT | vladimir3p: I'd assume it would be vendor specific, at least for a while | 18:15 |
| vladimir3p | yeah. in the past I've suggested to add a special placement/scheduling requirements | 18:16 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: why not order the affinity: <highest priority> <next highest>.... | 18:16 |
| vladimir3p | but it didn't come through I suppose | 18:16 |
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| vladimir3p | renuka: yep, this is definitely an option | 18:16 |
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| vladimir3p | at the same time you may want to have a list of objects with the same priority | 18:17 |
| renuka | DuncanT: for now I suggest we go with the extension that has the basic affinity/anti-affinity keywords | 18:17 |
| vladimir3p | in volume_create request? | 18:17 |
| renuka | this seems fairly well defined a problem, so I do not see the need for a generic field at this point | 18:17 |
| vladimir3p | or in volume_type params? | 18:17 |
| DuncanT | renuka: That's what I play on doing, it won't take long to change it if a different interface is desired | 18:18 |
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| DuncanT | *plan | 18:18 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: It probably doesn't matter if non-conflicting things have the same priority and are expressed one after another | 18:18 |
| renuka | if we do not do this, we will have a lot of complexity in the code to deal with "what happens if the user specifies conflicting goals to be at the same priority" | 18:19 |
| vladimir3p | ok, anyway meanwhile we can plan to put an infrastructure in and allow other vendors to override it | 18:20 |
| DuncanT | vladimir3p: Agreed | 18:21 |
| renuka | #idea In volume create, affinity is expressed as affinity_to: <highest priority> <next highest>... etc | 18:21 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: do you have an ideas about this infrastructure? | 18:22 |
| vladimir3p | renuka: or anti-affinity | 18:22 |
| vladimir3p | I propose to add those fields as "per request" and not in volume types | 18:22 |
| vladimir3p | as we may need to specify for each volume (of the same type) where to put it | 18:23 |
| DuncanT | vladimir3p: They absolutely are 'per-request' | 18:23 |
| renuka | #idea same as above for anti-affinity | 18:23 |
| DuncanT | anti-affinity exactly the same | 18:23 |
| vladimir3p | DuncanT: yep | 18:23 |
| vladimir3p | there were ideas to use special metadata keywords | 18:23 |
| vladimir3p | this is an option as well... | 18:23 |
| DuncanT | As far as whether the scheduler can do anything useful with them, I have no strong view - we have very little requirement from the scheduler | 18:24 |
| vladimir3p | regardless of how we will deliver it - the idea is to be able on scheduler level to acces them | 18:24 |
| DuncanT | meta-data keywords is basically the generic key-value idea | 18:24 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: you mean keywords other than affinity and anti-affinity? | 18:25 |
| vladimir3p | DuncanT: yes. Don't know if we want to reserve some keywords for that | 18:25 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: or were you saying this in general, and not with respect to affinity alone | 18:25 |
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| vladimir3p | renuka: yes. For now we have no other keywords that we need | 18:26 |
| vladimir3p | from our perspective we have following requirements for the scheduler: | 18:26 |
| vladimir3p | 1. to be able to create multiple volumes in one call | 18:26 |
| vladimir3p | 2. to be able on scheduler level to determine host abilities | 18:26 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: I am usually wary of adding generic key value pairs to requests where behavior can be defined... the documentation and behavior becomes hard to keep up with it | 18:27 |
| vladimir3p | 3. to be able to specify that particular volume should not be allocated from hosts where other volumes are allocated (anti-affinity) | 18:27 |
| vladimir3p | renuka; agree | 18:27 |
| DuncanT | renuka: The problem with that is it means all values must be defined, which removes vendor flexibiltiy | 18:27 |
| renuka | DuncanT: at this stage, we are having vendors come up and state their requirements, so we should deal with it individually ... | 18:28 |
| DuncanT | Allowing arbitary keywords, even with the proviso that they are only for advisory data, gives more flexibility | 18:28 |
| renuka | DuncanT: what I mean is, where we need generic key-value pairs like at some point for scheduler rules, we can use them... but we should not use them before that point | 18:29 |
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| renuka | DuncanT: like i said, if these are scheduler rules, then maybe we should have a keyword "scheduler-rules" and add these as arbitrary strings that can be passed | 18:31 |
| renuka | this will ensure that suddenly no one starts using the generic key value input for defining entirely different behavior | 18:31 |
| DuncanT | In our case they aren't really scheduler rules though, they're just extra data to pass to the driver | 18:32 |
| DuncanT | renuka: I'll think about what other examples I can come up with. It isn't something that needs a decision now | 18:32 |
| renuka | agreed | 18:32 |
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| vladimir3p | so, seems like our options are: a. in request structure to have a special field like scheduler/placement requirement. b. put same keyword in meta-data. c. no special keywords - just put to meta-data whatever you want and driver later will look (or not look) at metadata | 18:33 |
| renuka | vladimir3p: would it be alright to add an action for you to start the implementation of the scheduler first week of december? | 18:34 |
| vladimir3p | yep, put it in | 18:34 |
| renuka | #action vladimir3p to start scheduler implementation in the first week of december | 18:34 |
| renuka | the other reason to go with known keywords as far as possible is to be able to provide usage strings and maybe at some point auto completion | 18:36 |
| vladimir3p | ok guys, do we have anything else to discuss? | 18:38 |
| DuncanT | I've nothing this week | 18:38 |
| renuka | me neither | 18:38 |
| renuka | should we call it a day then? | 18:38 |
| vladimir3p | yep. | 18:39 |
| DuncanT | Yup | 18:39 |
| renuka | #endmeeting | 18:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/" | 18:39 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 18:39:13 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:39 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-18.04.html | 18:39 |
| vladimir3p | have a great weekend and we will talk in .. 2 weeks | 18:39 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-18.04.txt | 18:39 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-18.04.log.html | 18:39 |
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| vishy | DuncanT: generic key value | 18:43 |
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| DuncanT | vishy: Thanks, I'll go that way and let people know next week | 18:45 |
| DuncanT | Hopefully I'll have the code by then | 18:45 |
| DuncanT | There really isn't much to it | 18:46 |
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| maoy | hi anybody here? | 20:00 |
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| moneymoney | join http://www.bemabux.com/?ref=p4ncho | 20:02 |
| moneymoney | http://www.bemabux.com/?ref=p4ncho | 20:02 |
| moneymoney | http://www.bemabux.com/?ref=p4nchohttp://www.bemabux.com/?ref=p4ncho | 20:02 |
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| mikeyp | present ! | 20:03 |
| mikeyp | do we have a quorum ? | 20:03 |
| maoy | looks like just you and me mikeyp | 20:03 |
| mikeyp | ok, we can have a short meeting I guess | 20:05 |
| mikeyp | #startmeeting Orchestration | 20:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 17 20:05:29 2011 UTC. The chair is mikeyp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:05 | |
| maoy | #topic workflow engines | 20:05 |
| mikeyp | #topic workflow engines | 20:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "workflow engines (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:06 | |
| maoy | :) | 20:06 |
| maoy | i was wondering about the error handling in the mailing list | 20:07 |
| mikeyp | we dont have an agenda full agenda - I think it's workflow engines, eventlet/zookeeper, and anything else | 20:07 |
| mikeyp | ok | 20:07 |
| maoy | i'm interested more in they handle runtime errors | 20:07 |
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| maoy | and also if it deal with some failure issues, such as a node is crashed | 20:08 |
| mikeyp | main thing I noticed was that exceptions are just raised; there didn't appear to be any concept of exception handling specific to the workflow. | 20:08 |
| maoy | is the exception raised in another node (or another Python interpreter)? | 20:08 |
| mikeyp | it's single threaded, no conecpt of concurrency or parallelism. | 20:09 |
| maoy | got it | 20:09 |
| maoy | but we need something that can handle those | 20:09 |
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| mikeyp | definitely, but I didn't find any cloud-grade (tm) workflows libraries | 20:11 |
| mikeyp | it's raises the larger point of how this will all work together - think we need Sandy for that. | 20:12 |
| maoy | ok. i'll put some thoughts on that too. | 20:12 |
| maoy | i'll try to convert my powerpoint proposal to a wiki page before next meeting. | 20:12 |
| mikeyp | the strawman I have in my head is 'orchestration' is a reliable service, that calls into other openstack services. | 20:12 |
| maoy | now that i've read though the nova code i have a better idea how to fit in the code.. | 20:13 |
| maoy | yes | 20:13 |
| mikeyp | I'm not sure what the granularity would be, either in initial or later releases. | 20:13 |
| maoy | i think combining that, with more orchestration cooperation logic inside the compute/network nodes, we have something there. | 20:14 |
| mikeyp | it seems like TROPIC could support fine grained control. | 20:14 |
| maoy | the "orchestrator" might actually nicely fit with the scheduler | 20:14 |
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| mikeyp | agreed - I see changes there. | 20:15 |
| maoy | mike, can you elaborate in "fine grained control"? | 20:16 |
| mikeyp | just the general level of steps. | 20:16 |
| maoy | ok | 20:16 |
| mikeyp | so today, the operations are pretty high level. Schedule calls create, and a large number of things happen. | 20:17 |
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| mikeyp | should those individual operations be coordinated by orchestration ? | 20:18 |
| maoy | i think if they are non trivial, e.g. takes a while to finish | 20:18 |
| maoy | they should report their status | 20:18 |
| maoy | so that the orchestrator could 1) know what's going on | 20:19 |
| maoy | 2) if it's stuck/dead/crashed | 20:19 |
| maoy | 3) abort, or restart if necessary | 20:19 |
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| mikeyp | #action get sandys input on granularity of orchestration | 20:20 |
| maoy | the state of the workflow progress should be available | 20:21 |
| maoy | it could be either in database, or in zookeeper | 20:21 |
| maoy | right now, the task_state column is kind of like that | 20:21 |
| maoy | but can definitely be improved | 20:22 |
| mikeyp | yes - when I'v done this in the past, workflow runs independently of other operations, and can be interrogated | 20:22 |
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| mikeyp | in your TROPIC work, where there multiple workflow servers ? | 20:24 |
| maoy | i also like to use the analogy of the OS process | 20:24 |
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| maoy | we essentially need to build mechanisms to track the distributed processes as a coherent workflow | 20:24 |
| maoy | restart, or abort it if necessary | 20:24 |
| maoy | if you look at those business workflow management software, they are solving a different problem | 20:26 |
| maoy | yes. in TROPIC we call them controllers | 20:26 |
| maoy | there are multiple of them | 20:27 |
| mikeyp | business workflow tends to focus on process control, rather than process execution. | 20:27 |
| maoy | but only one is elected as leader to make decisions | 20:27 |
| mikeyp | so one is active, the others are 'standby' or failover ? | 20:27 |
| maoy | yes | 20:28 |
| mikeyp | got it - thats what I thoiugh the paper said. | 20:28 |
| maoy | it's hard to make distributed decision. :) | 20:28 |
| maoy | although possible, we run the numbers and seems one active is fast enough | 20:29 |
| maoy | i also looked at the other proposal mentioned in last meeting | 20:29 |
| maoy | from dragon | 20:29 |
| maoy | i felt it's very similar to the ppt file I sent | 20:30 |
| mikeyp | I#topic pacemaker | 20:30 |
| mikeyp | #topic pacemaker | 20:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "pacemaker (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:30 | |
| mikeyp | I haven't really reviewed it, was mostly looking at libraries. | 20:30 |
| mikeyp | what are the main differences ? | 20:31 |
| maoy | between dragon's and mine? | 20:31 |
| mikeyp | yes | 20:31 |
| maoy | mine also proposes to keep logs so that we can automatic rollback | 20:32 |
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| maoy | hold one | 20:33 |
| maoy | i need to refresh my memory. :) | 20:33 |
| maoy | #action maoy gives dragon proposal feedback | 20:34 |
| maoy | i'll do this in an email after the meeting | 20:34 |
| mikeyp | #action maoy gives dragon proposal feedback | 20:34 |
| mikeyp | ok, I will also review it. | 20:35 |
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| maoy | i don't know much about pacemaker | 20:35 |
| mikeyp | #action mikeyp to review dragon's proposal | 20:35 |
| maoy | the picture of pacemaker seems to suggest that corosync is a dependency which i also know nothing about | 20:36 |
| maoy | i got zookeeper working with eventlet | 20:37 |
| maoy | so that's not a concern. | 20:37 |
| mikeyp | #link https://lists.launchpad.net/openstack/msg03767.html dragondm's proposal | 20:37 |
| mikeyp | #topic zookeeper / eventlet | 20:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "zookeeper / eventlet (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:37 | |
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| mikeyp | yes, I saw that, good progress. | 20:38 |
| mikeyp | #topic vm-stat transitions | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "vm-stat transitions (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:38 | |
| mikeyp | The proposed vm state transitions are in review | 20:38 |
| mikeyp | #link https://review.openstack.org/#change,1695 | 20:39 |
| mikeyp | They seem to be held up, but I'm reviewing the changes anyways. | 20:39 |
| mikeyp | I should have said state transition management | 20:40 |
| maoy | somehow i felt that the solution they proposed is a little too complicated | 20:41 |
| maoy | i remember i saw a big state transition table in the summit | 20:41 |
| maoy | hopefully it can be simplified, otherwise it's hard to debug | 20:42 |
| mikeyp | hopefully, orchestration can remove some of the complications. | 20:42 |
| maoy | exactly | 20:43 |
| mikeyp | so, what else do we have ? | 20:43 |
| mikeyp | #topic wrap up | 20:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "wrap up (Meeting topic: Orchestration)" | 20:43 | |
| maoy | not much | 20:43 |
| maoy | next week is thanksgiving | 20:44 |
| mikeyp | OK, then lets wrap up till Sandy can review - I know he was out of pocket travelling today. | 20:44 |
| maoy | cool | 20:45 |
| mikeyp | #action mikeyp to send email re: next week schedule | 20:45 |
| mikeyp | ok, ttyl. | 20:45 |
| mikeyp | #endmeeting | 20:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/" | 20:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 17 20:45:48 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:45 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-20.05.html | 20:45 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-20.05.txt | 20:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-11-17-20.05.log.html | 20:45 |
| maoy | bye | 20:46 |
| mikeyp | bye | 20:46 |
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| zykes- | danwent: around ? :) | 21:01 |
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