Thursday, 2018-04-12

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zhongjun_hi15:00
tbarron#startmeeting manila15:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Apr 12 15:01:00 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)"15:01
amitohello o/15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'manila'15:01
marksturhi15:01
bswartz.o/15:01
gansohello15:01
dustinshey hey \o15:01
tbarronmanila courtesy ping:  gouthamr zhongjun xyang markstur vponomaryov cknight toabctl bswartz ganso15:01
zhongjun_hi15:01
tbarronbswartz: :)15:01
tbarronHi all15:01
tbarron#topic announcements15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: manila)"15:01
toabctlhi15:02
tbarrontoabctl: hi15:02
tbarronSunday is the deadline for Forum submissions, so pls. update15:02
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tbarron#link  https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-manila-brainstorming15:02
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tbarronUnless there are updates to that etherpad I'll go with what's there.15:03
tbarronSpec freeze is 19 April, one week from today.15:03
tbarronWe'll talk about specs in more detail in a moment.15:03
tbarronAny other announcements?15:03
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gouthamro/15:04
tbarrongouthamr: hi15:04
* tbarron passes gouthamr a cup of coffee15:04
vkmco/15:05
gouthamrthank you tbarron :P15:05
* tbarron passes vkmc aspirin (for manila-ui)15:05
vkmcoh so much needed15:05
vkmc\o/15:05
tbarron#agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/Meetings#Next_meeting15:06
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tbarron#topic spec reviews15:06
*** openstack changes topic to "spec reviews (Meeting topic: manila)"15:06
tbarron#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-rocky-specs15:06
tbarronhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/553662/15:07
tbarronThis one has some momentum15:07
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tbarronIf anyone has concerns about backwards compatability for APIs returning the wrong codes speak fast15:07
bswartzI already reviewed this -- for some reason I didn't press the +2 button15:07
tbarronnot fast, I mean raise your concerns or forever hold your peace :)15:08
tbarronbswartz: cool15:08
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tbarronWe'll skip the next one (access rule) since it has its own topic.15:08
tbarron#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/54630115:08
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tbarrondustins: can you work with the author to resolve your -1 ?15:09
gouthamrI agree with dustins that the diff is hard to read15:09
tbarrondustins: I think you don't object to the actual correction, right?15:09
dustinstbarron: Indeed15:10
tbarrongouthamr: dustins: so please reach out and get that procedural issue resolved15:10
dustinsAnd yes, I can do so, thanks for the reminder15:10
tbarrondustins: thanks much15:10
tbarronAnyone have material objections to this one?15:10
tbarronIt's pretty minimal.15:10
tbarron#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/551106/15:11
tbarronmetadata for access rule resource15:11
gouthamrhaven't reviewed past zhongjun's latest changes..15:11
tbarronlooks like it has review attention15:11
gouthamrbut important point to note here is the list API is going to change15:11
tbarrongouthamr: ack, so please keep the review going15:11
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zhongjun_yes, I fixed bunch of comments15:12
tbarrongouthamr: do you have any fundamental objections at this point, or just fixups?15:12
gouthamrzhongjun_: please correct me if that's incorrect, you do plan on adding a new API to list access rules and that API will allow filtering on metadata?15:12
zhongjun_gouthamr: yes15:13
gouthamri.e, the existing API will be unchanged, and will continue to work as is, you won't be able to use it to filter by metadata15:13
zhongjun_gouthamr:  the existing list API already use POST action15:13
gouthamrzhongjun_: yes.. i guess we should add these points to the spec15:14
zhongjun_tbarron: I thought it just fixups,   gouthamr: right?15:15
gouthamrzhongjun_: yes, mostly15:15
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tbarrongouthamr: zhongjun_ is this one close enough that the remaining changes can be made by next week at this time?15:15
gouthamrtbarron: please see the bit about the API change, that's the only controversial part15:16
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gouthamrthe current API is POST /shares/{share-id}/action to get a list of access rules15:16
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gouthamra new API which will support filtering by access rule metadata will be GET /share-access?share_id={share-id}&key=value&key2=value215:17
zhongjun_tbarron: It's about how to design API for list access rule15:17
tbarrongouthamr: zhongjun_ right, we're stuck with the old POST but does it make sense to use a GET for the new api to, umm, get ?15:18
gansoso with the microversion bump the POST /shares/{share-id}/action will start rejecting calls for that access-list action and only the new one will work, right?15:18
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gansoIIRC correctly share list API is a GET, so why shouldn't this be?15:19
tbarronzhongjun_: do you disagree?15:19
gouthamryeah, all of the list APIs are GETs15:19
gansos/'correctly'/''15:19
zhongjun_tbarron:  I am not disagree, but it is a little big change15:20
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zhongjun_so I think we should put it on the meeting15:21
tbarronzhongjun_: This is the meeting :)15:21
gouthamr:) +115:21
zhongjun_If there isn't any to against it, then we could go on15:22
tbarronzhongjun_: are you saying that you are willing to revise the new spec such that the new API will be a GET rather than a POST ?15:23
tbarrons/the new spec/the spec/15:23
zhongjun_yes15:25
tbarronzhongjun_: thanks15:25
gouthamrganso: yes, we'll be setting a maximum microversion on the old API15:25
tbarron#topic New Drivers15:25
*** openstack changes topic to "New Drivers (Meeting topic: manila)"15:25
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tbarron#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-rocky-drivers15:25
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tbarronWe have two new driver submissions, both of which are passing CI now.15:26
tbarronSo it's time to sign up for reviews.15:26
zhongjun_cool15:26
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gouthamrare passing the gate checks but not their own third-party CI15:27
bswartzgouthamr: you must love reviewing drivers15:27
gouthamrbswartz: i must love reviewing15:27
tbarrongouthamr: yeah, put a -1 in there and say that15:27
tbarronthey've asked for reviews15:27
tbarronI'll encourage people who have recently added drivers15:28
tbarronhint hint15:28
tbarronto review15:28
amitowho're you hinting to? ;)15:28
tbarronamito: oh, not you :)15:28
amitooh, good then :P15:28
tbarronYou'll be able to help and also be able to note where common problems could be solved by common code :)15:29
tbarronAnd stuff like that.15:29
tbarronLet's get these reviews going early enough so that there are no surprises.15:29
tbarronAnything else on this topic?15:29
tbarron#topic priority for access rules spec15:30
*** openstack changes topic to "priority for access rules spec (Meeting topic: manila)"15:30
tbarron#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55293515:30
tbarronzhongjun_: this one is yours, right?15:30
zhongjun_yes15:30
zhongjun_Do we require a limitation for value of the access rule priority (1~100)15:31
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tbarronI forget the reasoning you and bswartz gave for having a limited range15:32
zhongjun_I remember we discussed in PTG, we agreed that the value of priority is "1-100", bswartz: right? if my member is right15:32
tbarronIt wasn't that there aren't enough integers15:32
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bswartzWe never need more priorities than there are bits in a netmask for ip-based rules15:32
bswartz100 is a good round number that fits into human brains15:33
tbarrongouthamr: does that address your concern?15:33
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zhongjun_gouthamr's question is if we have more access rules,  more than 100, is it work?15:33
bswartzFor user-based rules, you'd never need more priorities than there are groups that contain the same user15:33
bswartzThere's no problem with using the same priority for multiple rules, as long as the rules don't overlap15:34
gansothe range is not for different access rules, just for overlapping ones15:34
gouthamrtbarron: no15:34
gouthamrthere's no such limitation on adding access rules, so why bother adding a limit?15:34
bswartzPutting a limit on the priority number is a subtle indication to users about how the feature should be used15:35
bswartzIn reality there is no need to limit it15:35
bswartzBut I think 1-100 will result in better usuability15:35
gouthamrganso: agreed that this feature is for overlapping rules, but having an API check around something that isn't really limited is kinda weird15:35
gouthamrbswartz: maybe we should add a hint in the UI?15:35
bswartzLimits make users happier15:36
* gouthamr thinks of ONTAP's limits... smiles15:36
amitogouthamr: which hint? the order in which the rules are shown?15:36
bswartzIf we leave it unbound people will wonder about negative numbers higher than 4.2 billion15:36
bswartzIf we leave it unbound people will wonder about negative numbers and numbers higher than 4.2 billion15:36
gansoif 100 isn't big enough we can make it bigger15:37
tbarronAnd they might wonder a couple of times too15:37
bswartzWhen people see there's a small range, they get the message that they don't need that many different priorities15:37
tbarron:)15:37
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gouthamrbswartz: a valid value is any positive integer15:37
bswartzIncuding numbers higher than 64 bits?15:37
bswartzThat might break mariadb15:38
zhongjun_or make it could be configed ?15:38
gouthamrbswartz: you could theoretically have >100 rules and assume you can only do so many15:38
gouthamrs/and/but15:38
bswartzgouthamr: Yes but that's around the point that you're doing something wrong even ignoring priorities15:40
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gouthamrbswartz: i agree validation is important, but the limit may seem confusing to the end user15:40
bswartzWe can support over 100 rules, but there's probably not a good use case for it15:40
bswartzI don't feel strongly on this15:40
tbarronbswartz: gouthamr why don't you two take this one offline15:41
amitoHow do you handle two rules with the same priority? (and how does it show in the ui?) does the spec address that? I don't remember15:41
tbarronbswartz: gouthamr specc should indicate the reasoninig for the choice15:41
tbarronbswartz: gouthamr and talk about ipv6 explicitly15:41
bswartzamito: same priority means the order between them is arbitrary (how it is today for all rules)15:41
tbarronwhy 64 max with 128 bit addresses15:41
tbarronbswartz: so that is my real concern15:41
gouthamrtbarron: agreed, i was asking zhongjun_ for the reason from the PTG because i wasn't around and the spec didn't mention what it was15:41
zhongjun_amito: I added the example in the spec15:41
bswartztbarron: that's easy, it's in the RFC15:42
amitobswartz: then there should be some precedence based on other attributes (access type / address range / etc.)15:42
tbarronI'm not sure that the spec solves the problem it's intended to address15:42
tbarronbswartz: I just said put it in the spec :) pointing to rfc is fine15:42
tbarronback to the problem, ambiguity in our access rules15:42
tbarronwhat will this one mean?15:43
bswartz#link https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc742115:43
tbarronA 192.168.1.0/24 RO 515:43
tbarronA 192.168.1.10 RW 115:43
tbarron5 is higher15:43
tbarronorder is irrelevant15:44
bswartz1 is higher than 515:44
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tbarronI don't care which is higher, but I thought the spec said 5 is higher.15:44
bswartzPriorities always sort backwards15:44
gansotbarron: the spec states the lowest number is higher priority15:44
tbarronRead the example such aht the more general rule is higher priority.15:45
tbarronganso: kk15:45
tbarronwhat does that mean?15:45
gouthamr"The lower number have the higher priority"15:45
tbarrongouthamr: right, so let me re-do the example15:45
tbarronA 192.168.1.0/24 RO 115:45
zhongjun_ganso: yes, because we could have multiple overlap access rule than 5 ?15:45
tbarronA 192.168.1.10 RW 515:45
bswartz^ In this example the second rule is effectively ignored15:46
gansoin that example the RW ones is pointless15:46
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bswartzHowever, we keep it in the database because if the other rule is deleted (denied) then it suddenly has meaning15:46
gouthamrbswartz: it doesn't though15:46
gouthamrbswartz: oh, you mean the subnet rule15:47
gansogouthamr: the RW one15:47
gouthamrganso: if the access for 192.168.1.0/24 is denied, the RW one actually works15:47
gansogouthamr: yes15:47
tbarronI am not sure this is implementable naturally on all backends15:47
tbarrona backend that matches most specific over more general for example15:48
gansotbarron: the ordering that could cause a rule to be ignored does not prevent them from being sent to the backend15:48
bswartzAll we need to do is implement the sorting in the share manager and document what the ordering of the rules now has meaning15:48
tbarronor we could document that more specific over general has meaning15:49
gouthamrbswartz: +1, that's where i'm caught up with this feature15:49
tbarronwhich would avoid nonsense entries like the one I gave15:49
bswartzIf the backend can interpret the meaning correctly, then they should all be sent to to the backend -- otherwise the driver may want to perform some preprocessing15:49
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tbarronand backends that process first match priority would just sort more specific first15:49
tbarronThat would be unambiguous semantics.15:49
tbarronWith less chance of user error.15:49
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tbarronClear rules.15:50
tbarronNo need for assigning priorities.15:50
bswartzThe priorities are about the API not the driver15:51
tbarronAPI has clear rules with more specific wins.15:51
bswartzRight now if I have 2 overlapping rules defined, and they're in the wrong order, I have no choice but to delete them and add them back in the right order15:51
bswartzAdding priorities allows me to reorder them without deleting anything15:51
tbarronIt allows a lot of confusion15:51
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tbarronAnd therefore support cases.15:52
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bswartzThe current situation leads to incorrect behavior and tough-to-solve problems15:52
tbarronProving to customers that they shot themselves in the foot and deserve to hurt.15:52
bswartzI'm not sure which is worse15:52
gansotbarron: o_O15:52
tbarronI'm not for the current situation, to be clear.15:52
gansotbarron: oh15:52
tbarronI think this spec poses the problem well.15:52
tbarronCurrenlty we have ambiguity.15:53
gansotbarron: so we should document it correctly15:53
tbarronI'm just not sure at this point that user assigned priorities are the best solution.15:53
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tbarron"more specific wins" is a familiar semantic from routing15:53
gansotbarron: implementation-wise it doesn't seem there much to improve on usability15:53
zhongjun_we should document it in the spec or a special doc?15:53
bswartzDidn't someone point out that a real cloud provider today implements this with priority numbers?15:54
bswartz(One that's not using openstack)15:54
tbarronbswartz: mebbe, AWS?15:54
gouthamrAWS doesn't have access rule priority last i checked15:54
tbarronLet's take some time to think about this one a bit more even if it means extending the spec deadline for it.15:55
zhongjun_bswartz: aliyun implement this with priority numbers today15:55
gouthamrsee https://docs.aws.amazon.com/efs/latest/ug/gs-step-two-create-efs-resources.html15:55
tbarronI'm convinced that there's a real problem.15:55
tbarronBut let's get a solution that we'll be happy with down the road.15:55
bswartzI think priorities are pretty straightforward15:56
tbarron#topic New Bugs15:56
*** openstack changes topic to "New Bugs (Meeting topic: manila)"15:56
gouthamrzhongjun_: do you have a link to their documentation15:56
bswartzThink of how a UI could be built for this feature15:56
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bswartzIt would just be a listbox with ^ and v buttons15:56
tbarron#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-bug-triage-pad15:57
tbarrondustins: you're up15:57
zhongjun_gouthamr: I am finding15:57
tbarronbswartz: we'll talk some more ....15:57
amitoI think you skipped the second bullet, but we're out of time in 3 min anyway15:57
tbarronamito: oh sorry15:57
amitoIt's ok, maybe we should move this off-meeting15:58
gouthamrzhongjun_: found it15:58
gouthamr#link https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/doc-detail/27534.htm?spm=a3c0i.o27533en.b99.23.77643ad5TzJF1D15:58
tbarronamito: ok15:58
zhongjun_Do we have  conclution15:58
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gouthamr1-100 :D15:58
tbarronzhongjun_: no15:58
dustinsamito: Feel free to continue, my bugs will take more time than is remaining15:58
tbarronzhongjun_: but we'll give more time if we need to15:58
tbarronzhongjun_: for the spec15:58
gouthamr"When the same authorization object matches multiple rules, the rule with the highest priority overwrites the remaining rules."15:58
zhongjun_tbarron: thanks15:58
bswartzgouthamr: +115:59
gouthamroops, i'm messing up the meeting log, sorry tbarron15:59
tbarrongouthamr: that's ok15:59
bswartzWe can always #undo the topic change15:59
tbarron#undo15:59
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #link https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/doc-detail/27534.htm?spm=a3c0i.o27533en.b99.23.77643ad5TzJF1D15:59
bswartzDoh that undid the #link15:59
amitoI might've missed if you discussed it above since I was afk for awhile now, but how do we handle overlapping allow-deny rules? gouthamr and bswartz stated that priority is irrelevant for deny rules, but I don't think that's the case.16:00
gansolol16:00
gouthamrhahaa16:00
tbarron#undo16:00
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-bug-triage-pad16:00
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tbarron#undo16:00
openstackRemoving item from minutes: #topic New Bugs16:00
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gouthamrrollback :P16:00
gansotime check16:00
tbarron#link https://www.alibabacloud.com/help/doc-detail/27534.htm?spm=a3c0i.o27533en.b99.23.77643ad5TzJF1D16:00
tbarronThanks everyone!!16:00
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gouthamramito: #openstack-manila?16:01
amitogouthamr: kk16:01
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tbarronlet's continue in #openstack-manila16:01
tbarron#endmeeting16:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/"16:01
openstackMeeting ended Thu Apr 12 16:01:15 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-04-12-15.01.html16:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-04-12-15.01.txt16:01
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-04-12-15.01.log.html16:01
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