Tuesday, 2018-03-27

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lbragstad#startmeeting keystone16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 27 16:00:17 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lbragstad. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'keystone'16:00
cmurphyo/16:00
lbragstado/16:00
lbragstad#link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/keystone-weekly-meeting16:00
gagehugoo/16:00
lbragstadagenda ^16:00
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jgrHello16:00
wxy|o/16:00
lbragstadayoung, breton, cmurphy, dstanek, gagehugo, henrynash, hrybacki, knikolla, lamt, lbragstad, lwanderley, kmalloc, rderose, rodrigods, samueldmq, spilla, aselius, dpar, jdennis, ruan_he, wxy16:00
hrybackio/16:01
knikollao/16:01
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kmalloco/ also zzzzzzzzzz16:02
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lbragstad#topic Rolling upgrade bug16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Rolling upgrade bug (Meeting topic: keystone)"16:03
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lbragstadsomeone dropped by the keystone channel this morning with another rolling upgrade bug that we suspected to be related to one that has been reported before16:03
lbragstad#link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/175590616:03
openstackLaunchpad bug 1755906 in OpenStack Identity (keystone) "Occasional deadlock during db_sync --contract during Newton to Pike live upgrade" [High,Confirmed]16:03
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lbragstadi threw it on the agenda before we reached a resolution16:04
lbragstadturned out to be a different problem16:04
lbragstadi'm goingt o try and dig into this relatively soon, pending spec reviews,16:04
raildoo/16:04
lbragstadif anyone else is interested in tag-teaming this, let me know16:04
lbragstadwe've had several people hit it (excluding the false positive this morning)16:05
kmallocI can take a gander this morning.16:05
lbragstadthank kmalloc16:05
kmallocI have a history of being able to dig out weird SQL edge cases.. :(16:05
lbragstadit's a pretty interesting upgrade problem16:05
lbragstadit consists of a surprisingly common edge case16:06
kmallocI'll hit it post meeting.16:06
lbragstadsweet16:06
lbragstad#topic specifications16:06
*** openstack changes topic to "specifications (Meeting topic: keystone)"16:06
lbragstad#info reminder that specification proposal freeze is april 20th16:06
kmallocMFA receipt: ayoung needs to look at it and +2/+A it :P16:06
kmallocUnless someone already +a'd it16:07
lbragstadI +2'd it16:07
kmallocYeah, I think it is ready.16:07
kmallocSaw your score on it.16:07
lbragstadI didn't +A it because we need to fix up the shuffling of specs/trello boards/etc...16:07
lbragstadi can propose a follow on to do that and then +A it16:07
lbragstadotherwise - yeah, exciting to see the needle move there16:08
kmallocAnd, we need to also do the whitelist one.16:08
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lbragstadalso - we need to come to consensus on application credentials16:08
kmallocWhich is very close if not ready as well.16:08
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/396331/16:08
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jgrYeah...16:09
lbragstadi think the details are fine, but we need to make sure we document and reach consensus on a attribute name for it16:09
jgrSo I'm not terrible wedded to the term "whitelist" if we really must change it.16:09
lbragstadi wanted to ping adam this morning, because he needs to be a part of the conversation, but he wasn't online16:10
kmallocAlso, whitelist is fine16:10
kmallocNo reason to block it on that16:10
jgrI still think getting rid of it is over the top, but if the consensus turns out otherwise I'm ok with changing it.16:10
kmallocIt *is* a whitelist16:10
hrybackihe's on on internal this morning either16:10
kmallocSo, let me just take a stand and say we don't need to change the term.16:10
kmallocReally.16:10
lbragstadregardless of the term, we *need* to document the justification for it and provide supporting evidence16:10
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lbragstadin a public forum16:11
cmurphyI think capability list is more descriptive16:11
kmallocExcept it isn't imo16:11
kmallocIt isn't a strictly defined list of capabilities16:11
cmurphyisn't it?16:12
kmallocIt is a fluid list of allowed uris16:12
lbragstaddoes the usage of wildcards make it fluid?16:12
lbragstador ! strict?16:12
kmallocThat doesnt really sound like a capability list to me, it is an opt-in restriction of allowed resource actions16:12
kmallocThat is a whitelist (almost to a tee)16:13
kmallocIf it was "boot vm" and "make volume", etc strictly defined, it would be more capability list16:13
kmallocBut, due to architecture, that isnt really doable.16:13
kmallocIt could still be "white listed actions" or whitelisted capabilities16:14
kmallocThis acts like a whitelist, if it is a duck, call it a duck :)16:14
jgrYeah. Problem is, there's this tweet from this Microsoft guy out there who considers it an unfriendly term :-/16:15
kmallocBut that is just my stance (and I wouldn't change my view of the core of the spec being ready if we change it)16:15
kmallocWe won't make everyone happy.16:15
jgrI'm not terribly happy with changing either, but I can live with it if we really must.16:16
hrybackiI think documenting the reasoning behind choosing (whichever) term is the most important thing. Everything is in the context tbh16:16
kmallocWhy is it "unfriendly" (that is a bad justification for not using the term) without more info.16:16
lbragstadagain - i think we need to involve adam in this part of the discussion16:17
kmallocAnyway, just gave my quick $0.002 that could be used for calling it a whitelist, feel free to steal it/use it/give ot not give credit.16:17
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jgrThis guy pretty much sums up my take on it: https://twitter.com/dtoebe/status/97697795460859494416:18
kmalloclbragstad: we can ping him, but he has to be more available than drive by reviewing if he is going to be a blocker for specs..16:18
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jgrThere are people out there thinking the term is racially charged.16:18
lbragstadjgr: you found some level of documention by a linguist, right?16:19
jgrlbragstad: yes, just a second16:19
jgrhttps://www.quora.com/Is-the-term-blacklist-racist16:19
kmallocjgr:  I am not going to make you change the term for that tweet. This is not worth justifying on our end imo for this reason.16:19
lbragstadand that is included in the review it looks like16:20
kmallocCan we discuss if the term is descriptive and correct, not if it is racially charged..16:21
lbragstadi think that is getting to cmurphy's input16:21
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jgr"descriptive" (and more easily understandable to a non-native English speaker than an awkward circumlocution) is why I'd like to retain it, yes.16:22
hrybackijgr: are you advocating for a term synonymous with 'white list' but could not be considered insensitive?16:22
kmallochrybacki: please drop this line.16:23
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kmallocLet's get away from the insensitive or not part of the convo, it is not relevant to this part of the discussion.16:23
hrybackihe's the spec author. I'm trying to provide a solution that meets your and his desires here16:23
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jgrhrybacki: I'm not advocating for a synonym (or circumlocution). But I'm willing to live with it so as not to hold up the spec (which I'd like to see land) over terminology.16:24
kmalloclets drop the line of questioning/assessment based upon the "unfriendliness"16:25
kmallocrefocus the convo16:25
kmalloccmurphy: do you feel capability list is a better term (for technical/descriptive reasons)16:26
kmallocand enough so to warrant changing away from whitelist.16:26
kmallochrybacki: ^ same to you.16:26
cmurphyi do think it is better for technical reasons16:26
knikollaaccess list?16:26
kmalloccan you expand a little bit. and i'm happy to have the change with that reasoning.16:27
cmurphywhitelist to me doesn't describe what is being listed16:27
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cmurphycapability list to me is all the things this app cred is capable of16:28
kmallocso, as i understand, you're seeing it as whitelist is a modifier, it could be a "capability whitelist" but "whitelist" is insufficient?16:28
kmalloc[the converse of the implementation in the spec would be a capability blacklist]16:28
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cmurphysure16:29
cmurphybut we're never going to have a blacklist so it doesn't even entirely make sense to have whitelist when we're never going to have the converse16:30
kmallocright - i'm just clarifying16:30
lbragstadfwiw - if capability is more descriptive of boot_vm, it's not to say we won't get to that in the future either16:30
kmallocon why we should change, that whitelist is insufficient16:31
lbragstadeven though the system doesn't work that way today16:31
kmallocas a term. not that we would have the inverse supported16:31
kmallocs/insufficient/insufficient in itself/16:31
cmurphysure, but that's another reason why i think whitelist is inappropriate, is because it implies the converse is possible16:31
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lbragstadthat's true...16:35
kmalloccmurphy: that is fair16:35
kmalloci like that it is called a whitelist, because the functionality is that of a whitelist16:35
lbragstadthat's not to say we can't describe it as a whitelist in the documentation16:36
kmallocif the documentation clearly says it acts as a whitelist16:36
lbragstad++16:36
kmalloci'm thinking that is enough for me.16:36
cmurphyi'm fine with that16:36
kmallocjgr: ^ would that be good?16:36
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kmallocjgr: it hits both things, pretty clearly.16:36
lbragstadcmurphy: have you left feedback about capability lists in the review?16:37
cmurphyno, i can16:37
lbragstadjust double checking16:37
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jgrkmalloc: so "capability list" and document "it acts as a whitelist"?16:37
jgrkmalloc: (sorry, the discussion has been going back and forth quite a bit so I want to be sure I got the conclusion right)16:38
cmurphyi think that's the conclusion16:38
lbragstadjgr: ++16:39
jgrSure, that works for me.16:39
lbragstadmainly because the term "capability" is in the name, and it is descriptive, and that it doesn't imply we support the inverse16:39
jgrI think I may actually have called it a "list of capabilities" back when I proposed this spec in Barcelona...16:39
lbragstadcmurphy: kmalloc correct me if i'm wrong16:39
cmurphyi agree with that16:41
lbragstadcool - we have things to do with that then16:41
lbragstadlet's move on16:41
lbragstadthere are two specs proposed for hierarchical limits16:41
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/540803/16:41
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/549766/16:42
lbragstadeyes on both of those would be good16:42
kmalloclbragstad: i also gave adam a direct response saying "don't use twitter as a source of knowledge and be careful of injecting things into the review process"16:42
lbragstadone of them is actually CERN's write-up and encapsulates a lot of what we talked about in Dublin16:42
lbragstadthe other (written by wxy|) does a good job of laying out a bigger picture16:43
wxy|i'll refresh them tomorrow, may merge them into one?16:44
kmallocjgr: please do not encapsulate any of the non-tech bits into the spec or documentation (insensitive/not/whatever) from this convo, it doesn't belong there, we can defend ourselves if needed, but it's not something we want in our docs.16:44
lbragstadwxy|: yeah - that'd be good16:44
kmallocjgr: or in the spec itself, the comments on the review are enough/sufficient.16:44
lbragstadwxy|: some of those action items might be better as bugs, too?16:45
wxy|sure16:45
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wxy|and don't forget Sean's  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/16:45
lbragstadthe specification for JWT needs eyes, specifically around the whole encryption/signing topic16:46
jgrkmalloc: of course. I wasn't planning on doing that...16:46
lbragstad#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/541903/16:46
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kmallocjgr: just wanted to be sure :)16:46
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cmurphyI think we're deferring on Sean's for now since we're focusing on just the CERN model16:46
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lbragstadSean's or johnthetubaguy ?16:47
wxy|cmurphy: could that be a backlog, not for Rocky?16:47
wxy|Since some model seems helpful as well.16:47
cmurphyi'm talking about this one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/441203/ we're not going to accomplish all those models this cycle so yes keep it in the backlog16:48
lbragstad++16:48
kmalloc++16:48
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wxy|cool. that works for me.16:49
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lbragstadalright - bumping the reviews topic since we're running short on time16:50
lbragstad#topic help wanted16:50
*** openstack changes topic to "help wanted (Meeting topic: keystone)"16:50
lbragstadcmurphy: o/16:50
cmurphyoh right16:50
cmurphyso i had this idea16:50
cmurphythe tc has a "help wanted" list to try to constructively drive contributions16:50
cmurphyi thought we could do something similar for keystone16:50
cmurphywe have a lot of driveby contributions for like typo fixes or url fixes or PTI updates16:51
lbragstadlike - not add keystone as an item on the tc's help wanted list?16:51
cmurphywe could steer those toward the little things that we really want help on16:51
cmurphyright, not add keystone to the tc's, just have our own list16:51
lbragstadah16:51
gagehugothat would be nice16:51
lbragstadyeah..16:51
cmurphyso like updating the docs to conform to the doc team's writing guide would be one thing16:52
cmurphyfixing up usage of deprecated things in keystone would be one16:52
cmurphyfixing up usage of deprecated keystone things in devstack and other projects would be one16:52
cmurphyi'm sure we could come up with others16:52
lbragstadi'm in favor of trying it...16:53
lbragstadi also wouldn't be opposed to adding keystone to the tc's help wanted list16:53
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lbragstadi know we've talked about that in the past16:53
hrybackicould we not do both?16:53
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knikolla++16:53
hrybackior use one to drive potential contributors to the other, more formalized list of asks16:53
lbragstadthere isn't anything saying we can't16:53
lbragstadat least not to my knowledge16:54
hrybacki'two nets catch more fish' or something16:54
hrybackinot sure if that would be confusing or step on someone's toes though. cmurphy probably has best insights to that end16:54
lbragstadin the past i was trying to be conscious of adding keystone to the tc list because i didn't want to take the opportunity from another project that needs more help16:55
cmurphymy main concern right now was just with turning drive-by contributions into something constructive16:55
hrybackiack. cmurphy we could spend some time grooming that list today during OO16:55
cmurphyif we added keystone to the tc's help wanted list that would be more focused on larger-scoped needs16:55
cmurphyour specs backlog etc16:56
hrybackiokay, that makes sense16:56
lbragstadthat makes sense16:56
* lbragstad thinks unified limits and policy stuff should go on there16:56
cmurphyexactly16:56
lbragstadwe'll need to make sure we keep the list fresh16:57
lbragstadmaybe review it during retrospectives or something like that16:57
hrybackilbragstad: we can refresh it on a weekly basis as part of a regular meeting16:57
hrybackior that16:57
lbragstadthat too16:57
lbragstadI don't have a preference16:58
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cmurphythe things i have in mind are sort of ongoing tasks, like fixing up deprecated things16:58
hrybackiack. Maintaining a high level list of ongoing areas like ^^ and then creating bugs for specific, actionable items (that would obviously change as we progress) could be nice?16:59
cmurphy++16:59
lbragstadi think so16:59
lbragstadi'm all for it16:59
hrybackiI'm thinking bugs for smaller actionables to help entice folks16:59
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lbragstad< 1 minute left16:59
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lbragstadwe can pick things up in office hours17:00
lbragstadthank all17:00
lbragstad#endmeeting17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 27 17:00:12 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.html17:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.txt17:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2018/keystone.2018-03-27-16.00.log.html17:00
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kmalloclbragstad: the mysql and pgsql errors are different18:00
kmallocwhoopse, wrong channel18:00
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