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| matt-borland | o/ | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| piet | Morning | 15:00 |
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| hurgleburgler | (◠‿◠✿)ノ | 15:01 |
| piet | Hi Diana! | 15:01 |
| ducttape_ | 0/ | 15:01 |
| matt-borland | olo | 15:01 |
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| piet | #startmeeting openstack_ux | 15:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Feb 12 15:03:16 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is piet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_ux' | 15:03 |
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| piet | Huh...I managed to break the UX Meetings wiki | 15:05 |
| robcresswell | uh oh | 15:05 |
| piet | Let me wing it | 15:05 |
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| piet | #topic London/Ironic | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "London/Ironic (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:06 | |
| * ducttape_ suggest some ux work on the wiki edit ui | 15:06 | |
| piet | Oddly, I made a slight change... | 15:06 |
| piet | So I had to change the London mid-cycle slightly which will impact robcresswell | 15:07 |
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| robcresswell | :o | 15:07 |
| piet | The last day (Friday) will be focused exclusively on completing the Ironic standalone | 15:08 |
| piet | Rather, the design proposals for the Ironic standalone. Unfortunately, it has fallen way behind and we need to deliver something soon. | 15:09 |
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| piet | The plan is to try to review progress with operators remotely for an hour halfway through the day | 15:09 |
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| piet | The deliverably at the end of the day will be agreement on the design direction including panels and workflows | 15:10 |
| piet | And have the design uploaded to Invision by Tuesday | 15:10 |
| piet | Hell or high water | 15:10 |
| piet | robresswell - need your help reviewing work, proposing designs and keeping the team moving forward | 15:11 |
| piet | robcresswell | 15:11 |
| robcresswell | Cool. You want me to attend the Friday too then? | 15:11 |
| robcresswell | Or would I be in the way | 15:11 |
| piet | Yes, please | 15:12 |
| robcresswell | Cool, thats fine by me | 15:12 |
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| piet | betherly will also be there and has expereince with Ironic | 15:12 |
| piet | Unfortunately, OpenStack UX didn't deliver and we need to get back into good standing | 15:13 |
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| robcresswell | Gotcha | 15:13 |
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| robcresswell | Y'know, a couple of my colleagues are working on ironic in the UK. Should I asked them along? | 15:13 |
| piet | It may be a bit uncomfortable | 15:13 |
| piet | Are we good? | 15:14 |
| robcresswell | Yeah sure | 15:14 |
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| piet | ducttape_ Depending on time difference I may try to pull you in for an hour review. However, it also feels like you've had to do too much of the review work.... | 15:16 |
| piet | ducttape_ totally OK if you don't have time | 15:16 |
| piet | #topic End user dashboard interviews | 15:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "End user dashboard interviews (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:17 | |
| ducttape_ | ok, for ironic ? | 15:17 |
| piet | ducttape_ Ironic standalone | 15:17 |
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| ducttape_ | ok, I'm less useful there, but I'll try | 15:17 |
| piet | k - I can also pull in a few others | 15:18 |
| piet | Has anyone attended any of the end user interviews? | 15:18 |
| hurgleburgler | A few of us have | 15:19 |
| matt-borland | not in the last week | 15:19 |
| matt-borland | but yeah, I was in a few | 15:19 |
| robcresswell | I did pre-skiing, but been away and now kinda swamped with Horizon M-3 work | 15:19 |
| piet | I think robcresswell , mattborland and hurgleburgler were there | 15:19 |
| piet | What did you think? | 15:19 |
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| robcresswell | I think the idea is great. I view UX as research primarily and forming opinions from that. | 15:20 |
| robcresswell | From the early interviews, ithink they need to be shorter to get more attention | 15:20 |
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| piet | Yeah, maybe down to 45 minutes | 15:20 |
| piet | Any take-aways at this point? | 15:21 |
| robcresswell | I'd honestly drop it even lower, and go for very direct questions, but thats just me. | 15:21 |
| piet | Thirty minutes? | 15:21 |
| robcresswell | Yeah I'd go for 20 - 30. | 15:21 |
| piet | 20 may be a bit short because it keeps you from going off on tangeants | 15:22 |
| hurgleburgler | +1 robcresswell | 15:22 |
| hurgleburgler | I like that idea | 15:22 |
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| piet | I'm kind of thinking that Overview panel does not equal Dahboard | 15:22 |
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| piet | Not sure that end users are in Horizon enough to effectively use it as a dashboard | 15:23 |
| piet | Discuss among yourselves ;^) | 15:23 |
| robcresswell | So, from what I get from general feedback is: | 15:24 |
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| robcresswell | Project overview should be something like quick tasks for the average pleb who wants to grab a couple of instances for his dev team etc | 15:24 |
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| robcresswell | Admin overview should be like... your control panel. Whats the status of my cloud, is anything on fire | 15:24 |
| ducttape_ | robcresswell - admin overview is not that, right now | 15:25 |
| robcresswell | At the moment Horizon is a collection of tabled resources | 15:25 |
| piet | ducttape_ shoudl it be? | 15:25 |
| ducttape_ | it is a way to have a page fall over and not tell you very many useful things | 15:25 |
| robcresswell | And really lacks a overall view | 15:25 |
| robcresswell | ducttape_: Yeah atm its a dead page. | 15:26 |
| ducttape_ | I think it's fine to just remove overview, and not try to consolidate one central overview page at this time | 15:26 |
| piet | ducttape_ Do you use a different dashboard ? | 15:26 |
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| ducttape_ | icinga is general health for operators, monasca we use too. there are multiple dashboards we have on monitors | 15:27 |
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| piet | ducttape_ so dashboard is used elsewhere? | 15:27 |
| piet | ducttape_ Do you ever look at the overview panel? | 15:28 |
| ducttape_ | the admin overview is used (nearly) never in our setup. it always fails | 15:28 |
| piet | k | 15:28 |
| ducttape_ | and an admin needs undercloud health, like status of machines, rabbit health, db health, etc | 15:28 |
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| piet | It was kind of stunning how many end users were made aware of an issue AFTER a customer complains | 15:29 |
| ducttape_ | horizon is not interested in doing that undercloud stuff, b/c it will vary from deployment to deployment so much | 15:29 |
| hurgleburgler | is that just from large deployments to small deployments? | 15:29 |
| hurgleburgler | or is it even more granular than that? | 15:29 |
| ducttape_ | piet you should try to write a health monitor for every single place that can fail. it's never ending the amount of fail that happens | 15:30 |
| piet | ducttape_ Right after I walk Waterbug | 15:30 |
| ducttape_ | I think it varies, but most every operator will get notified of an issue by a customer. hopefully this is the exception to the rule - but this will almost always happen | 15:31 |
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| piet | hurgleburgler what was your take-away? | 15:32 |
| hurgleburgler | Its difficult to make horizon a proper dashboard | 15:32 |
| hurgleburgler | but, we already knew that was a problem | 15:33 |
| ducttape_ | I would assume that operators are going to get notified of an issue through some monitoring system. at the point they might log into horizon, they have an idea that a problem is in area X or Y | 15:33 |
| ducttape_ | what should be the focus is getting into the admin dashboard to resolve well known problems | 15:33 |
| piet | hurglerburgler Because of technical challenges or confusion around the use case? | 15:33 |
| ducttape_ | like a compute host dies | 15:33 |
| hurgleburgler | mostly technical challenges | 15:34 |
| ducttape_ | when a compute host dies, you need the people and projects impacted, move the vms to new hosts, etc. doing this within horizon is several pages | 15:34 |
| piet | Feel like we're talking across both overview panels | 15:34 |
| robcresswell | ducttape_: Yesss, this is what I'd like to see | 15:34 |
| robcresswell | Overviews should have the ability to catch 3/4 of users immediately | 15:35 |
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| piet | ducttape_ should the operator overview panel be a priority for UX? | 15:35 |
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| ducttape_ | I don't think so, not compared to other issues | 15:35 |
| piet | k | 15:35 |
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| ducttape_ | an effective operator panel would be great, but there are other issues that horizon does not really handle well at this point - which are bigger pains | 15:36 |
| piet | ducttape_ +1 | 15:36 |
| ducttape_ | operator "overview" | 15:36 |
| ducttape_ | missed that word | 15:36 |
| piet | Kind of stitching together panels in the operator overview | 15:37 |
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| piet | matt-borland what did you take-away from the interviews? | 15:38 |
| matt-borland | my main takeaway | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | frankly was that there are many workflows that are too slow for people to use | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | which I kinda knew | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | but now I have evidence | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | :) | 15:39 |
| piet | how do you mean? | 15:39 |
| ducttape_ | like a workflow to do end user or operator tasks ? | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | yes. | 15:39 |
| matt-borland | there are many activities that don't scale | 15:40 |
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| matt-borland | doesn't matter what domain or what user | 15:40 |
| matt-borland | "domain" as in "subject" | 15:40 |
| piet | matt-borland There is a need combine workflows into a single use case? | 15:40 |
| matt-borland | it's scale problems | 15:41 |
| matt-borland | more than other things. | 15:41 |
| piet | Ahhh...back end issue? | 15:41 |
| matt-borland | yep | 15:41 |
| piet | Gotcha | 15:41 |
| matt-borland | but also it doesn't hurt to make workflows more accessible :) | 15:41 |
| robcresswell | Horizon and scale are not two words that go well together, its something we've been stalling on for too long. | 15:41 |
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| piet | Yeah, combining workflows into a single panel may have wheels | 15:42 |
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| matt-borland | yep | 15:42 |
| robcresswell | It gets difficult when you have a lot of other resources to pull in. | 15:43 |
| robcresswell | Look at the instances code, makes requests all over the place | 15:43 |
| ducttape_ | I'm not sure having lots of big workflows is what I would shoot for, this seems like a complex solution where we might have simpler options | 15:43 |
| robcresswell | when you;'re an admin, it just falls over. | 15:43 |
| matt-borland | yeah, hence my interest in getting Searchlight really going | 15:43 |
| ducttape_ | if all admin pages would not try to list everything, that is a simple change, does not require a workflow, and makes things better in those cases | 15:44 |
| robcresswell | Searchlight has a long way to go before it becomes Horizons panacea though. | 15:44 |
| robcresswell | ducttape_: this guy, he knows :) | 15:44 |
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| robcresswell | Requiring a filter parameter before listing anything would be a relatively straightforward change | 15:44 |
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| robcresswell | Would probably make the panels much more usable? | 15:45 |
| ducttape_ | well, taking advice from someone named ducttape_ will produce simplest solutions possible | 15:45 |
| matt-borland | robcresswell, short answer is probably "YES" for many operators | 15:45 |
| matt-borland | but it will also frustrate others | 15:45 |
| hurgleburgler | yeah | 15:46 |
| matt-borland | so, settings :) | 15:46 |
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| ducttape_ | there could be an option where you visit the page and say, to hell with this, go ahead and show me everything and bring the pain | 15:46 |
| matt-borland | yep | 15:46 |
| matt-borland | "I'm feeling lucky" | 15:46 |
| robcresswell | Yeah | 15:46 |
| robcresswell | and just have that default to on/off in settings | 15:46 |
| robcresswell | little show all checkbox or similar. | 15:47 |
| ducttape_ | if you are an admin and in horizon, you no longer "feel lucky" ;) | 15:47 |
| piet | ducttape_ Can I quote you "bring the pain!!!!" ;^) | 15:47 |
| ducttape_ | yes, a "bring the pain" button should happen | 15:47 |
| piet | What does it do? | 15:47 |
| TravT | it opens horizon | 15:48 |
| ducttape_ | it reverts an admin table listing to go ahead and work in the current mode, where we try to show everything and stuff is slow | 15:48 |
| piet | Hi travist ! | 15:48 |
| ducttape_ | touche TravT - well played | 15:48 |
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| piet | TravT | 15:48 |
| hurgleburgler | lol | 15:48 |
| TravT | hi, for some reason i still have your old meeting invite in my calendar piet | 15:48 |
| TravT | just killed it though | 15:48 |
| robcresswell | Yeah, my calendar also said meeting is in 10 mins time | 15:49 |
| robcresswell | luckily I saw piets mention in horizon chat | 15:49 |
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| piet | Better to download the invitation from the OpenStack wiki | 15:50 |
| piet | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ | 15:51 |
| ducttape_ | so, we have some consensus, matches horizon plans too..... for admin stuff it would be good to make the listing pages not list all the things, and instead prompt for a query filter | 15:51 |
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| ducttape_ | and the admin overview page perhaps should be configurable for off / on | 15:51 |
| ducttape_ | as it will likely need to go away / be re-written | 15:52 |
| piet | #startvote | 15:52 |
| openstack | Unable to parse vote topic and options. | 15:52 |
| piet | Let's do a quick vote | 15:52 |
| TravT | syntax: #startvote (question) ? choice1, choice2 | 15:52 |
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| piet | Yeah...maybe not this morning... | 15:53 |
| robcresswell | TravT: You're more useful than the meetbot | 15:53 |
| piet | Pasting to my IRC notes | 15:53 |
| hurgleburgler | :-D | 15:53 |
| ducttape_ | I don't think the discussion above differs from horizon plans already discussed / in place | 15:54 |
| piet | ducttape_ k | 15:54 |
| TravT | so, it seems that eavesdrop doesn't have any meetings logs since 2015 | 15:54 |
| robcresswell | Yeah, its an existing Horizon plan really | 15:54 |
| TravT | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ux/ | 15:54 |
| TravT | is that the right one? | 15:54 |
| robcresswell | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/ | 15:54 |
| TravT | ok, link from main page is wrong then | 15:55 |
| piet | I go to http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/ , search for UX and download the invitation | 15:55 |
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| piet | #topic Nominees for OpenStack UX | 15:56 |
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| piet | I'm putting forward Dan Kingshott to be added as a core | 15:56 |
| robcresswell | Mailer it | 15:57 |
| robcresswell | So its more open :) | 15:57 |
| piet | We need more operators and he has been the most vocal | 15:57 |
| piet | Sure, just putting it out there | 15:57 |
| robcresswell | Cool sounds good | 15:57 |
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| piet | robcresswell Which email list? | 15:58 |
| robcresswell | the openstack-dev mailer | 15:58 |
| piet | Deep knowledge as an operator and very opinionated | 15:58 |
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| robcresswell | http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev | 15:59 |
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| piet | robcresswell Thanks! | 15:59 |
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| TravT | the traditional process is to send out a message to mailer and give a 5 day period for naysayers | 15:59 |
| robcresswell | Yup :) | 15:59 |
| piet | Kk | 15:59 |
| matt-borland | gotta run...thanks! | 16:00 |
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| piet | Alright - thanks for you continued participation! A little worried about the OPenStack UX project these days.... | 16:00 |
| robcresswell | Nah, keep it up Piet | 16:00 |
| piet | Losing a bit of wind... | 16:00 |
| piet | Looking forward to London | 16:00 |
| piet | #endmeeting openstack_ux | 16:00 |
| robcresswell | \o/ | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Feb 12 16:00:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-02-12-15.03.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-02-12-15.03.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-02-12-15.03.log.html | 16:01 |
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| robcresswell | I hope your wallet is prepared for London too. | 16:01 |
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| piet | yeah, need to think about creative expensing | 16:01 |
| robcresswell | Btw, can you put the location in the etherpad? Atm it just says Intel offices, which isnt that handy for non-intel folk :) | 16:02 |
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| piet | Sure | 16:02 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: The infrastructure team is taking gerrit offline for maintenance this afternoon, beginning at 22:00 utc. We should have it back online around 23:00 utc. http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-February/086195.html | 21:46 | |
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