16:58:28 <lblanchard> #startmeeting UX
16:58:29 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Aug  4 16:58:28 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is lblanchard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:58:30 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
16:58:32 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'ux'
16:58:46 <lblanchard> welcome, Chris! Thanks for attending :)
16:59:13 <lblanchard> jcoufal is away today so I will be chairing…
16:59:13 <Chris_Richardson> Sure thing.  I'm pretty darn new to this whole thing, so i'll do my best :)
16:59:26 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: you'll do just fine :)
17:00:00 <Chris_Richardson> Have you had an opportunity to look through that Pattern Guide on Google yet?
17:00:22 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: I have…and it's on the agenda to talk about today in this meeting
17:00:41 <Chris_Richardson> sweet.
17:00:47 <lblanchard> the full agenda can be found here for all #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/UX
17:01:47 <lblanchard> well…let's see if we can get started. We might not have enough attendance to cover the first few topics, but we can try
17:01:59 <lblanchard> #topic Wireframes review tool
17:02:31 <lblanchard> some work has been done on reviewing some tools here #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/uxtools
17:03:10 <lblanchard> is anyone attending today who can give an update? I don't see Adi in the meeting…
17:03:31 <david-lyle> o/
17:03:39 <lblanchard> hi david-lyle
17:03:46 <david-lyle> not on the update though, bad timing :)
17:03:49 <lblanchard> small crew today…I think just you, me and Chris_Richardson :)
17:03:53 <lblanchard> haha, no worries
17:03:56 <david-lyle> hmm
17:04:20 <lblanchard> well…one topic that I know krotscheck would like to cover we can talk through now…
17:04:25 <lblanchard> #topic UX Project name on StoryBoard
17:04:25 <krotscheck> Ayup
17:04:27 <david-lyle> I think the time confusion the past few weeks likely has effected attendance
17:04:30 <krotscheck> Yes!
17:04:42 <lblanchard> #link 	•	https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96549/
17:05:03 <lblanchard> david-lyle: agreed…hopefully getting on a bi-weekly Monday schedule will start to iron out confusion
17:05:17 <krotscheck> So, I’ve managed to land a change to jeepyb that allows us to create a project without a git repository, paving the way for UX to have a place in infra.
17:05:29 <lblanchard> krotscheck: awesome!
17:05:32 <krotscheck> The only remaining piece is: What do we name it?
17:05:58 <krotscheck> There’s rules and bylaws and conventions and things.
17:06:02 <lblanchard> krotscheck: right…I saw one of the recent comments is that openstack/ux would not be acceptable since we aren't an official program?
17:06:16 <krotscheck> Right, the same with openstack-ux/ux or anything similar.
17:06:33 <krotscheck> Now, there’s no problem _renaming_ a project in the future.
17:06:43 <lblanchard> krotscheck: so…basically it just can't have 'openstack' in the name?
17:06:48 <krotscheck> For now, correct.
17:06:53 <lblanchard> okay...
17:07:02 <krotscheck> Well, unless y’all want to talk to the TC and convince them to allow it.
17:07:17 <lblanchard> right
17:07:20 <krotscheck> But they will be way more easily convinced if they see some activity.
17:07:35 <lblanchard> yes agreed…it's a chicken and egg thing probably haha
17:07:41 <krotscheck> So getting y’all into infra is a means to an end :)
17:07:42 <lblanchard> so you think it will be a huge pain to change the name later?
17:08:04 <david-lyle> most projects change name at some point
17:08:12 <krotscheck> No, it’s a request to infra-core, and renames usually happen on fridays.
17:08:17 <david-lyle> not that it won't be a pain
17:08:17 <lblanchard> okay
17:08:21 <lblanchard> that's good
17:08:27 <krotscheck> Case and point, Sahara is now something else?
17:08:32 * krotscheck didn’t keep track of that one.
17:08:48 <lblanchard> sounds like we should pick something that works well based on the rules and conventions they have…I don't think we need to make an exception for us
17:08:56 <lblanchard> how about just ux?
17:09:05 <lblanchard> we've been using that as a tag on the ML
17:09:12 <lblanchard> and it's our meeting name
17:09:24 <krotscheck> Well, _I_ think they should make an exception, but it’s hard to make a case.
17:09:33 <lblanchard> ah, understood
17:09:47 <lblanchard> haha well I do too…but we have biased opinions probably :)
17:09:56 <krotscheck> Clearly :)
17:10:06 <lblanchard> I think if we show all of the work we can do it will make a better case for us becoming an official program
17:10:08 <david-lyle> +1 on just 'ux'
17:10:25 <lblanchard> and I'd like to follow the rules on the way to do that…rather than always get exceptions
17:10:32 <david-lyle> especially if we don't need a repo
17:10:55 <lblanchard> krotscheck: thoughts on just 'ux'?
17:11:05 <lblanchard> I can run it by jcoufal quickly when he is back too
17:11:19 <krotscheck> I’m not a member of the TC. is jeblair available to comment on an appropriate name for the UX team?
17:11:54 <krotscheck> I look at things like this and think that the easiest path to adoption is going to be pretending we’re a software project. http://ci.openstack.org/stackforge.html
17:12:13 <krotscheck> “…and in some cases to ease a project’s path to incubation and official integration.”
17:12:32 <krotscheck> But then there’s a distinction between “project” and “program".
17:12:35 <lblanchard> krotscheck: yeah…I have no idea how that would work for UX considering we don't have code
17:13:12 <david-lyle> what we'd want in source control is final design docs which are blobs and aren't great for git
17:13:22 <lblanchard> david-lyle: right
17:13:46 <lblanchard> well, for this topic why don't I take the action to follow up with jeblair and jcoufal
17:13:55 <krotscheck> There appears to be an official “how to” on becoming a program here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewPrograms
17:13:57 <lblanchard> we can decide on if 'ux' works for a name
17:14:09 <lblanchard> and keep you, krotscheck, in the loop along the way?
17:14:13 <krotscheck> And use ‘stackforge/ux’ as a fallback?
17:14:16 <david-lyle> how about a picasa account? or the like?
17:14:37 <krotscheck> david-lyle: I’ve already gotten a handslap for trying to include invision in my workflow.
17:14:41 <lblanchard> david-lyle: well…I think it would be nice to be able to store raw design files too
17:14:46 <krotscheck> non-opensource-services are a no-no
17:15:08 <lblanchard> david-lyle, krotscheck: right…we talked a little bit about potentially using swift
17:15:17 <lblanchard> but I have no idea how that could/might work...
17:15:21 <lblanchard> research needed I guess
17:15:25 <david-lyle> ok, so gimp and the image storage backend that OpenStack provides?
17:15:50 <lblanchard> david-lyle: perhaps?
17:15:51 <david-lyle> which installation of swift?
17:15:53 <krotscheck> This is more of a third-party-tooling discussion, rather than a namign thing, yes?
17:15:59 <david-lyle> yes
17:16:01 <lblanchard> haha yes
17:16:16 <david-lyle> detour off the repo discussion
17:16:28 <lblanchard> #action lblanchard to follow up with jeblair and jcoufal on 'ux' naming for repository, keep krotscheck in the loop
17:16:39 <krotscheck> Ok, y’all can talk about that, I’m going to bounce into infra and see if I can get an opinion.
17:16:46 <lblanchard> krotscheck: thanks
17:16:49 <david-lyle> thanks
17:17:17 <lblanchard> david-lyle: I will add the topic of storing design files/images to our next meeting…I don't think we have enough people to really get anywhere today
17:17:26 <lblanchard> david-lyle: I think some research is needed too
17:17:29 <david-lyle> lblanchard: sure
17:17:34 <lblanchard> david-lyle: thanks
17:17:38 <david-lyle> sounds like a good plan
17:18:02 <lblanchard> so the last topic I'd like to cover today before open discussion…
17:18:05 <lblanchard> #topic Horizon Pattern Library
17:18:21 <lblanchard> #link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OKy_oXZQSg8Feo0p6Es7giR6a-w_CK8H03D2R2yAUjs/edit
17:18:38 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson has put together a nice first version of a Horizon Pattern Doc...
17:18:56 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: would you like to give an intro to this and talk through what you are looking for with respect to feedback?
17:19:21 <Chris_Richardson> yep, that's where I come in.  Please feel free to provide any feedback on that document.
17:19:52 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: so the intended audience is developers and designers?
17:19:54 <Chris_Richardson> I know Piet is aiming to wrap up this document in the next few days so we can begin porting it into an RST format
17:20:21 <david-lyle> it's been a little while since I looked at it, but things like widths and heights are a little problematic
17:20:21 <Chris_Richardson> Yes, but mostly developers since we will be moving it into the RST format
17:20:43 <david-lyle> I'm think particularly around the login form
17:21:00 <david-lyle> that form changes dimensions :)
17:21:16 <Chris_Richardson> Cool. So using widths & heights should be deleted since they aren't always concrete?
17:21:21 <lblanchard> sneaky :)
17:21:28 <david-lyle> I think so
17:21:39 <Chris_Richardson> no problem.  Done.
17:21:43 <lblanchard> I guess even just noting that would be good
17:22:16 <lblanchard> I think one big concern would just be keeping up with any changes being made…
17:22:19 <david-lyle> Chris_Richardson: thanks for your work
17:22:45 <lblanchard> Will this be updated with each patch? Or I guess more likely with each release of OpenStack?
17:22:49 <david-lyle> maybe we date the docs and redate them when updated
17:23:05 <lblanchard> david-lyle: yeah great idea to date them
17:23:20 <lblanchard> maybe have a "What's changed?" section
17:23:39 <Chris_Richardson> Ahh, thats an interesting idea.
17:23:41 <david-lyle> yes
17:24:09 <david-lyle> at least give a heads up on areas that have changed but have not been updated in the doc yet
17:24:38 <Chris_Richardson> Is there an area or website i can visit to see what is currently being updated?
17:25:11 <david-lyle> only the reviews in progress on review.openstack.org
17:25:30 <david-lyle> that may be hard to rationalize
17:25:46 <lblanchard> right…and the ones specific to Horizon...
17:25:53 <david-lyle> I think the idea is as part of these changes, the authors add a comment in the what's changed section
17:26:04 <lblanchard> but yes, all are not fundamental UI design changes…
17:26:14 <david-lyle> lblanchard: right
17:26:38 <Chris_Richardson> So would we want to release staged, periodic releases of this document... like, 4 times per year?
17:26:59 <david-lyle> Chris_Richardson: I would be happy to get 2x per year
17:27:04 <david-lyle> but more is better
17:27:17 <david-lyle> OpenStack has 2 releases per year
17:27:22 <Chris_Richardson> ha. 2 works for me
17:27:37 <lblanchard> yeah I'd agree…we should do at least with each openstack release which is 2x per year
17:28:17 <Chris_Richardson> Then, if necessary, i'm sure we can have a page in the document that directs people to a specific website that shows current/new progress
17:28:17 <lblanchard> one other big thought…is there a plan on how to actually make sure developers follow these guidelines?
17:28:47 <david-lyle> show be added to the review criteria for Horizon and referenced in reviews where it differs
17:29:05 <david-lyle> s/show/should
17:29:29 <lblanchard> maybe? I wouldn't want UX to become any sort of bottle neck
17:29:46 <lblanchard> although anyone could comment on whether something is following the guidelines or not :)
17:30:01 <david-lyle> UX should be a bottleneck
17:30:09 <lblanchard> there is so much gray area around some of this stuff…for example...wizards
17:30:13 <david-lyle> we need to get consistent
17:30:21 <lblanchard> should all "create X" flows follow the wizard design?
17:30:26 <lblanchard> I think most should...
17:30:28 <david-lyle> lblanchard: that's true, those are a moving target
17:30:33 <lblanchard> right
17:30:43 <lblanchard> this is an awesome first step to getting to consistency though
17:30:52 <david-lyle> we could add a comment to that in Chris's documentation
17:30:54 <lblanchard> so to repeat what david-lyle said, awesome stuff Chris_Richardson
17:31:29 <lblanchard> david-lyle: maybe it's another exercise to pinpoint the areas of Horizon that aren't complying with the patterns?
17:31:38 <david-lyle> yes
17:31:48 <Chris_Richardson> Thank you.  Well, i'll be avail for any and all updates
17:31:49 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: any plans on your end to do something like this?
17:31:51 <david-lyle> separate from Chris's work
17:31:56 <lblanchard> david-lyle: yes for sure
17:32:35 <Chris_Richardson> I haven't discussed this with Piet yet.  So I don't really have an answer at this point.
17:33:00 <Chris_Richardson> Basically, it sounds like we need some sort of "quality assurance" ?
17:33:01 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: okay, no worries at all. It's not something I'm expecting you to take on, just something we should do as a team…both UX and Horizon
17:33:14 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: right…with a little bit of help from UX I think
17:33:26 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: since it's not always cut and dry when to use which patterns
17:34:03 <Chris_Richardson> Gotcha.
17:34:07 <lblanchard> well…for today I'm going to add an action for everyone to at least give feedback on the doc
17:34:40 <lblanchard> #action All - Give feedback by the next meeting (2 weeks from today) on Chris's patterns doc https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OKy_oXZQSg8Feo0p6Es7giR6a-w_CK8H03D2R2yAUjs/edit#slide=id.g368f5f66d_167
17:34:43 <Chris_Richardson> Yeah, that would be great.  Then i can consolidate a list of items to tackle to create the next round
17:34:55 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: perfect, thanks again for this
17:35:06 <Chris_Richardson> no problem.  glad i can help
17:35:18 <lblanchard> Chris_Richardson: it will definitely evolve, but this is the heavy lifting to start it!
17:36:01 <lblanchard> alright, with such a small crew I don't think we will really have much to talk about with respect to faceted search…so…
17:36:05 <lblanchard> #topic Open Discussion
17:36:11 <krotscheck> Just got an answer from infra
17:36:12 <lblanchard> anything else you guys want to bring up?
17:36:22 <lblanchard> krotscheck: oh good!
17:36:25 <lblanchard> what did they say?
17:36:31 <krotscheck> Long story short: “ux” is a top level namespace, and is likely to only be granted once UX is an official program.
17:36:54 <krotscheck> The goal is to get you guys onto storyboard as quickly as possible so we can use activity to show that the team is doing thigns.
17:36:55 <lblanchard> krotscheck: did they have any suggestions?
17:37:08 <krotscheck> So the suggestion was to use the stackforge prefix for now.
17:37:16 <krotscheck> i.e.: “stackforge/ux"
17:37:25 <lblanchard> krotscheck: okay…that sounds like it would be find to me
17:37:29 <lblanchard> david-lyle: any thoughts on that?
17:37:58 <david-lyle> sounds good to me
17:38:12 <lblanchard> awesome, thanks
17:38:20 <lblanchard> and thanks krotscheck for continually pushing this uphill
17:38:37 <lblanchard> I will send a quick e-mail to jcoufal and you just to confirm he's okay with this
17:38:42 <krotscheck> Patch update
17:38:45 <krotscheck> Patch updated
17:38:49 <lblanchard> okay great
17:39:04 <lblanchard> he can comment on the patch if he's not okay…I'm sure he will be on board with moving it forward :)
17:39:33 <lblanchard> any other topics for today?
17:40:02 <lblanchard> Our next meeting with be 8/18 (2 weeks from today) at 17:00 UTC…
17:40:30 <Chris_Richardson> Sounds good.  Thank you for the feedback.
17:40:44 <lblanchard> any time…hopefully there will be more to come on the doc :)
17:40:51 <lblanchard> #endmeeting