17:00:42 <sarob> #startmeeting training-manuals
17:00:42 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Jul 28 17:00:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:44 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
17:00:46 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'training_manuals'
17:00:55 <sarob> rollcall
17:01:00 <rluethi> hi everyone
17:01:04 <MeganR> Hello
17:01:12 <dbite> helll
17:01:15 <dbite> *hello
17:01:18 <sarob> morning and evening
17:01:30 <sarob> #topic stable update
17:01:56 <dbite> basic-install-guides for Icehouse are ready
17:02:01 <dbite> infact were ready last week
17:02:03 <sarob> sweet
17:02:09 <dbite> the work for Juno is going on, its not re-using anything yet
17:02:17 <dbite> there are multiple issues with xi:include
17:02:21 <dbite> which we are facing for the first time
17:02:29 <dbite> since we are the first project to propose and do this
17:02:42 <dbite> I'm not sure if we could re-use the install guides
17:02:48 <dbite> we may have to maintain basic-install-guides
17:03:01 <dbite> separately
17:03:10 <sarob> dbite: hmm
17:03:33 <sarob> dbite: so explain for everyone what the xi:include prob is
17:03:56 <dbite> mostly the manuals team is re-using content without using xi:include
17:04:05 <dbite> the most common issue I face is
17:04:12 <dbite> URL's being relative
17:04:34 <dbite> they use other way to include docs which puts the ID of the section
17:04:37 <dbite> rather than the file name
17:04:42 <dbite> which is the biggest hurdle
17:05:57 <sarob> dbite: so if we get manuals team to use fqdn urls xi:include would be stable?
17:06:28 <dbite> yes
17:06:35 <dbite> but the other issue is the difference in content
17:06:57 <dbite> install guides is more generic and caters advanced/experienced operators and sys-admins
17:07:05 <dbite> with about 3-5 years of experience
17:07:16 <dbite> and intermediate to advanced knowledge of linux
17:07:21 <dbite> we cannot expect that for training
17:07:27 <dbite> which makes it difficult to include their content
17:07:34 <sarob> dbite: so i have a solution for that
17:07:43 <dbite> tell me
17:08:10 <sarob> dbite: at oscon i met up with a few groups that are doing open source linux sysadmin training
17:08:36 <dbite> yes, the ones included in the tweets right?
17:08:40 <sarob> dbite: they are interested in partnering
17:08:42 <sarob> dbite: yup
17:08:53 <sarob> dbite: they all want openstack training
17:09:05 <dbite> would be great to have them on-board
17:09:22 <sarob> dbite: we can get some real motivated sysadmins on board
17:09:54 <dbite> sounds good
17:10:02 <sarob> dbite: but also practice usage at two diff universities
17:10:18 <sarob> dbite: OSU and RIT
17:10:42 <sarob> dbite: they both have running open source sysadmin training over the past year
17:10:46 <dbite> sorry, not familiar with their short forms
17:11:24 <sarob> dbite: Oregon State Univ
17:11:30 <rockyg> FYI:  BayLISA is interested in an OpenStack focused meetup:  Senior *nix admin + little to no OpenStack.
17:11:45 <sarob> dbite: Rochester Inst Tech
17:12:05 <dbite> ok, I will take a look, but it is really good news
17:12:14 <sarob> rockyg: meaning what?
17:12:15 <dbite> we get more feedback and have consistent usage
17:12:40 <rockyg> Feedback on that angle of training.  What is needed for just OS
17:12:42 <sarob> dbite: i need to get them to start joining our meetings
17:13:26 <rluethi> sarob: can you explain how that is a solution to the problem with training-guides vs. openstack-manuals install guide?
17:13:36 <sarob> http://teachingopensource.com
17:13:39 <dbite> sarob: yes, it would be really good ... also my time zone is changing soon, it would be easier to attend meetings which are later in the day for west coast
17:13:56 <dbite> rluethi: we get more eyes and hands to create and maintain our content
17:13:58 <rockyg> Could help distill down to what is new/different from standard Sysadmin
17:14:05 <sarob> rockyg: ah, okay. well i have a few options #link http://teachingopensource.com
17:14:06 <dbite> so we can tolerte less re-use
17:14:11 <dbite> *tolerate
17:14:23 <fthamura> rluethi: those are my questions also, training guide vs openstack installation guide :)
17:14:49 <fthamura> sarob: here we also create material for univ , school regarding openstack, love can partnering in this segment.
17:14:50 <rluethi> sarob: so we mostly give up on reuse, correct?
17:15:01 <sarob> it may be that we have to give up content reuse
17:15:09 <rluethi> ack
17:15:51 <sarob> rluethi: i would like to keep it as a goal, but i do not want to hamstring our progress
17:16:00 <dbite> fthamura: we need to keep simpler more focused content for training
17:16:03 <rluethi> I think we should aim at staying in sync, maybe it's mostly about adding some explanations.
17:16:12 <dbite> rluethi: mostly yes, but I will be pushing for re-use
17:16:16 <dbite> lets see how it goes
17:16:27 <rluethi> agreed.
17:16:39 <sarob> other sysadmin group here #link https://github.com/devopsbootcamp
17:16:42 <fthamura> dbite: agree, my experience here, we make step-by-step rather 1000 pages book manual, and an exam in every step, which all of you did, we make java education. www.jeni.or.id -> sorry in indonesia lang
17:17:06 <dbite> fthamura: sure, I hope chromium translates it for us
17:17:21 <sarob> fthamura: training experience is critical to understanding how to teach
17:18:19 <fthamura> sarob: that why we need ToT, a certification for instructor, and this can become revenue model, take a look blender foundation with their training model, but this can conflict with openstack member that do training, like redhat, mirantis, but accidently ubuntu doesnt interest with this
17:18:23 <sarob> dbite: so icehouse support, you have the install guide
17:18:37 <dbite> yes thats the current one upstream
17:18:50 <dbite> the juno one is in progress but its stubbed out
17:18:56 <sarob> dbite: how quickly can we make training icehouse
17:19:02 <sarob> dbite: support
17:19:17 <dbite> I think its nearly ready
17:19:20 <dbite> we are working on labs
17:19:22 <fthamura> sarob: will we make a "video" training guide?
17:19:37 <rockyg> Short youtube videos with very focused topics would be good.  Could have a number that re generic enough to last a number of releases.
17:19:45 <dbite> I will tell you exact time required for finalizing Icehouse during next meeting
17:19:45 <sarob> fthamura: i could use a volunteer
17:20:15 <sarob> dbite: excellent. we have a few different groups that want to help
17:20:44 <sarob> dbite: lets break down the work into spec/bp and tasks so we can put them to work
17:20:55 <dbite> sarob: also we have new contributor
17:20:57 <dbite> sayalilunkad: ping
17:21:05 <sarob> dbite: coolness
17:21:07 <dbite> she was OPW, and is interested in helping us out
17:21:18 <sayalilunkad> hello :)
17:21:20 <annegent_> hey all, caught up
17:21:31 <sarob> sayalilunkad: welcome
17:21:38 <annegent_> so you really really really really want that basic install guide sounds like? :)
17:21:51 <annegent_> yay sayalilunkad!
17:21:55 <sarob> annegent_: ;)
17:22:01 <sayalilunkad> thanks sarob, annegent_ :D
17:22:09 <dbite> annegent_: sorry I did not understand
17:22:33 <sarob> dbite: lets discuss on the docs ML how to break down the icehouse stable work
17:22:45 <sarob> dbite: today if poss
17:23:21 <dbite> sarob: today would not be possible its already 11:00 pm here
17:23:25 <sarob> dbite: this pattern of work will make it easier for new contributors to start working
17:23:32 <dbite> but you can start the discussion
17:23:54 <sarob> dbite: right, i forget sometimes ;(
17:24:27 <dbite> sarob: no, probs ... I'm caught up with some German Bureaucracy otherwise I would not mind changing time zones ;)
17:24:40 <annegent_> dbite: sarob: I'd love to include your latest accomplishments in the "What's Up Doc?"
17:24:53 <annegent_> sounds like we have a basic install guide, is there a link?
17:25:00 <dbite> annegent_: yes, wait a second
17:25:29 <annegent_> sure (and I don't want to interrupt the agenda, sorry sarob_
17:25:34 <dbite> code : http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/training-guides/tree/doc/training-guides/basic-install-guide
17:25:47 <sarob> annegent_: np
17:26:16 <dbite> annegent_: it needs some polishing as of how it is presented
17:26:24 <dbite> http://docs.openstack.org/training-guides/content/operator-controller-node-lab.html#operator-basic-install-guide-controller-lab
17:26:25 <dbite> http://docs.openstack.org/training-guides/content/operator-network-node-lab.html#operator-basic-install-guide-network-lab
17:26:25 <dbite> http://docs.openstack.org/training-guides/content/operator-compute-node-lab.html
17:26:36 <dbite> but the same content can be assembled to provide basic-install-guide
17:26:44 <dbite> as well as cater to training books
17:27:10 <dbite> sarob: I think I am done with stable updates, we may move on
17:27:26 <sarob> #topic infra update
17:27:57 <dbite> Roger, want to provide the updates?
17:28:28 <sarob> rluethi: looks like we have another week or two before the icehouse stable work is laid out
17:28:29 <rluethi> well, labs scripts are moving forward.
17:28:53 <rluethi> we are coordinating over etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/training-guides-developing-topics
17:29:04 <dbite> sarob: we need some time, but its gaining good momentum
17:29:21 <dbite> kudos to rluethi, hes created really awesome environment "OSBASH"
17:30:11 <sarob> rluethi: the two RIT and OSU sysadmin teams have been doing very similar build enviroments
17:30:37 <rluethi> very similar in what respects?
17:30:42 <sarob> rluethi: will prob be helpful to collab
17:30:53 <sarob> rluethi: virtualbox scripts
17:31:02 <sarob> rluethi: vagrant
17:31:11 <rluethi> sarob: anything public?
17:31:24 <sarob> rluethi: building on laptops for quick uptime
17:31:44 <sarob> rluethi: i believe all of it, but i havent dug in that far yet
17:32:08 <rluethi> sarob: can you elaborate on the relation of building on laptops and quick uptime?
17:32:25 <sarob> rluethi: they have some limiting public hosted infra as well
17:32:31 <sarob> limited
17:32:39 <dbite> rluethi: may be we arent the only crazy people in the world ;)
17:33:01 <rluethi> dbite: speak for yourself :)
17:33:10 <sarob> rluethi: meaning getting a working trainer environment up on a student's laptop fast
17:33:46 <dbite> rluethi: s/we/I/ :)
17:34:04 <rluethi> sarob: what OS?
17:34:12 <annegent_> rluethi: have you seen Anvil? The python replacement for devstack? http://anvil.readthedocs.org/en/latest/topics/dev_notes/architecture.html
17:34:27 <sarob> rluethi: they have been focused on what we have been calling the administrative services like kernel, dns, ntp, etc
17:34:35 <rluethi> annegent_: nope. thanks for the link.
17:35:14 <sarob> annegent_: harlowja from yahoo manages that
17:35:21 <annegent_> rluethi: I can add it to the etherpad if you like
17:35:29 <harlowja> sarob where u hiding
17:35:43 <rluethi> annegent_: sure, go ahead, it's a free for all :)
17:35:53 <dbite> anvil sounds good, we were planning to get more of python in our scripts
17:36:01 <sarob> harlowja: off mission by ohlone
17:36:28 <harlowja> sarob sneaky
17:36:44 <rluethi> the part that I considered moving over to Python is host-side, though.
17:36:53 <annegent_> rluethi: ah okay
17:36:53 <harlowja> rluethi feel free to bug me; i can go over what the heck anvil is
17:36:54 <rluethi> devstack is client-side (inside the VMs).
17:37:03 <sarob> rluethi: almost ready to break down into bp?
17:37:13 <dbite> harlowja: I'm interested too
17:37:20 <rluethi> sarob: which part?
17:37:29 <dbite> also we could provide you some really good feedback
17:37:38 <sarob> rluethi: any of the work tbd
17:37:47 <rluethi> harlowja: sounds very interesting. we should probably hammer the scripts into working shape first.
17:38:18 <rluethi> sarob: we can move some of the decided stuff into blueprints.
17:38:27 <sarob> rluethi: harlowja and the new sysadmin peoples can review ideas and work alot easier that way
17:38:35 <sarob> rluethi: coolness
17:38:35 <dbite> rluethi: I think you can take the lead
17:39:02 <rluethi> sarob, dbite: okay, I'll see what I can do.
17:39:24 <sarob> rluethi: so respond to my spec/bp ML thread with your stuff
17:39:24 <dbite> rluethi: thanks :)
17:39:25 <rluethi> ping me if you need any information, please.
17:39:39 <dbite> sarob: initially we want the existing shell scripts based labs to work
17:39:43 <sarob> rluethi: we can think it through for a day and then start the specs
17:40:01 <sarob> dbite: makes sense
17:40:03 <dbite> we will definitely start our work with anvil soon
17:40:32 <sarob> dbite: harlowja can always use a few more eyeballs
17:40:33 <rluethi> sarob: sure. I am working on several issues, so the squeaky wheel often gets the oil :)
17:40:33 <harlowja> dbite there are intereted folks in #openstack-anvil  when u get there
17:40:51 <dbite> sarob, harlowja: we would love to have them on our labs secion
17:40:58 <dbite> also I am interested in Anvil
17:40:59 <sarob> rluethi: oh, im squeaky
17:41:01 <harlowja> cool
17:41:14 <dbite> sure
17:41:27 <sarob> aint collaboration grand
17:41:52 <rluethi> sarob: try to squeak as specifically as possible
17:42:09 <dbite> haha
17:42:11 <sarob> rluethi: working on my tonality
17:42:23 <sarob> #topic testing update
17:42:42 <sarob> matjazp: did you sneak in?
17:43:00 <rluethi> sarob: isn't he on vacation?
17:43:20 <sarob> rluethi: my brain is on vacation
17:43:24 <dbite> sarob: he is on vacation
17:43:33 <dbite> he will join us next week
17:43:34 <sarob> #topic any other business
17:43:36 <rluethi> sarob: there was an email from matjazp
17:44:19 <rluethi> sarob: is stable=docs, and if so, why, and if not, what is it?
17:44:46 <sarob> rluethi: lost me
17:44:49 <annegent_> rluethi: good question. I think of stable as icehouse right now
17:45:32 <sarob> rluethi: meaning if we support icehouse then training=stable?
17:45:36 <rluethi> sarob: during meetings, you ask for stable updates. and I wonder what unstable is.
17:45:56 <rluethi> sarob: what else is there other than stable?
17:46:04 <dbite> rluethi: thats more of a philosophical question
17:46:05 * sarob unstable=sarob?
17:46:13 * dbite unstable
17:46:25 <sarob> rluethi: the stuff under development
17:46:27 <rluethi> sarob: it may confuse newcomers. it sure confused me.
17:46:39 <dbite> sarob: rluethi has a point
17:46:41 <sarob> rluethi: is unstable like the dev and arch training guides
17:47:33 <sarob> rluethi: how else should we call the stuff under heavy construction?
17:48:56 <rluethi> I dunno. How about projects/subjects (docs, scripts, slides) and then qualifiers (stable, trunk) or something?
17:49:15 <dbite> rleuthi: we will put docs after the name
17:49:23 <rluethi> What confused me is that "stable" seemed to refer not to a state, but a subject (docs).
17:49:25 <dbite> so it should be stable docs, unstable docs
17:49:30 <annegent_> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Releases
17:49:42 <annegent_> docs for horses~
17:49:43 <rluethi> dbite: that would make more sense to me, yes.
17:49:59 <sarob> hmm, okey dokey
17:50:14 * sarob you are now stable docs
17:50:15 <dbite> rluethi: so next time you see stable, just add docs by default after it :)
17:50:28 * dbite I concur!
17:50:31 <rluethi> i'll write an IRC bot
17:50:34 <annegent_> I think "stable" should be reserved for release nomenclature.
17:50:47 <sarob> roger that guys
17:50:50 <sarob> and girls
17:50:51 <annegent_> We use "draft" for work-in-progress documents that are targeted to juno
17:51:01 <rockyg> maybe draft?  as for horses ;-)
17:51:09 <sarob> draft sounds better than unstable
17:51:10 <annegent_> See the watermark here: http://docs.openstack.org/trunk/install-guide/install/apt/content/
17:51:14 <dbite> rockyg: lol
17:51:15 <annegent_> DRAFT - Juno - DRAFT - Juno
17:51:30 <dbite> annegent_: I was wondering to put that for training
17:51:34 <dbite> thanks for bringing it up
17:51:35 <dbite> :)
17:51:38 <sarob> #info stable team is now called the stable docs team
17:51:38 <annegent_> dbite: for install sure
17:51:45 <dbite> yeah
17:51:48 <annegent_> sarob: no there is no such thing
17:52:04 <annegent_> sarob: please don't use the term stable that way, it's confusing
17:52:21 <sarob> annegent_: okay, what do you suggest
17:52:27 <annegent_> sarob: draft
17:52:36 <dbite> #info stable team is not called as stable docs team, we need to rename stable
17:52:48 <dbite> sarob: sarob, should we use Docs team as roger suggested?
17:52:57 <dbite> and drafts for the unfinished work?
17:53:17 <sarob> dbite: so stable=training docs
17:53:22 <dbite> yes
17:53:30 <dbite> vote?
17:53:38 <sarob> dbite: and developement=draft docs
17:53:47 <dbite> yeah
17:54:11 <sarob> is there any other ideas or discussion on this?
17:54:15 <dbite> we will also put up the fancy drafts watermark for them
17:54:15 <dbite> ohh yeah, I had one more question
17:54:39 <sarob> dbite: shoot
17:54:39 <dbite> should we publish books as different links under the training-guides on the docs.openstack.org website?
17:55:17 <sarob> dbite: like separate pdfs?
17:55:28 <dbite> yeah, and seperate links under the training guides section
17:55:32 <dbite> like the install
17:55:35 <dbite> and configure sections
17:55:42 <sarob> dbite: could do that
17:55:52 <sarob> dbite: limit trainee confusion?
17:55:56 <dbite> the content is already modular from the XML point of view
17:55:57 <dbite> yes
17:56:00 <dbite> limit confusion
17:56:09 <sarob> im good with that
17:56:15 <dbite> also make it look more shiny, four sections under training
17:56:23 <annegent_> dbite: sarob: I'm not a fan of more books popping up
17:56:42 <annegent_> dbite: sarob: what's your criteria for starting a new book? with the build maintenance and all?
17:56:56 <sarob> annegent_: we already have four books
17:57:01 <annegent_> dbite: sarob: seems like it'd be good to get an overall vision for adding more tho
17:57:14 <dbite> annegent_: I meant sub-sections
17:57:22 <sarob> annegent_: we can discuss on docs ML
17:57:22 <annegent_> dbite: ah ok
17:57:24 <dbite> like the install section has four links
17:57:33 <dbite> annegent_: so it looks like there are more books
17:57:43 <dbite> and keeps it simple for our end users
17:58:14 <sarob> #info discuss how the four training books are visable on docs.openstack.org
17:58:58 <annegent_> dbite: it's always good to revisit the organization
17:58:59 <sarob> #info discuss on docs ML renaming the training stable team to training docs
17:59:18 <sarob> its time to say goodbye for this week
17:59:19 <dbite> annegent_: yes, I need to learn how to do that properly :)
17:59:33 <annegent_> good deal dbite :)
17:59:34 <dbite> bye all
17:59:37 <sarob> thanks all for your contributions!
17:59:42 <annegent_> thanks dbite!
17:59:49 <MeganR> bye
17:59:51 <dbite> annegent_: yeah, welcome ...
18:00:00 <sarob> #endmeeting