18:01:37 #startmeeting third-party 18:01:37 Meeting started Mon Jun 30 18:01:37 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:01:38 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 18:01:40 The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' 18:01:47 #chair anteaya 18:01:48 Current chairs: anteaya krtaylor 18:02:03 Hi everyone 18:02:06 o/ 18:02:12 Who is here for third-party? 18:02:13 o/ 18:02:15 hello everyone 18:02:18 +1 18:02:57 +1 18:03:06 so let's get started then 18:03:12 here is the agenda: 18:03:30 * mestery pings lukego as well. 18:03:34 hoi 18:03:36 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#Agenda_for_next_meeting 18:03:48 lukego: Nice timing. ;_P 18:04:05 hi all 18:04:10 #topic Welcome & Reminder of OpenStack Mission 18:04:27 #info The OpenStack Open Source Cloud Mission: to produce the ubiquitous Open Source Cloud Computing platform that will meet the needs of public and private clouds regardless of size, by being simple to implement and massively scalable. 18:04:44 hi 18:04:47 #topic Review of previous week's open action items 18:05:23 ilyashakhat__, are you here? 18:05:32 krtaylor: yes 18:05:40 he doen'st have an item from last week 18:05:47 that is from the prior weeks agenda 18:05:58 the open items from last week are the two etherpads 18:06:07 one to discuss log suggestions 18:06:21 one to discuss length of time to report test results 18:06:32 ah, yes, it helps to refresh the page 18:06:36 it does 18:06:55 (sorry a tad late) o/ 18:07:09 glad your here SlickNik 18:07:12 me too, hi 18:07:15 you're 18:07:22 #topic etherpad log suggestions 18:07:30 here is the etherpad 18:08:06 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/LogServerGeneralRecommendations 18:08:15 anteaya, this was the right one? 18:08:21 yes 18:08:29 you're doing great 18:08:46 so I'll jump in here 18:08:57 so right now we have some suggestions for logging 18:09:00 Can we comment on it ? or you prefer the etherpad ? 18:09:03 so, this was the discussion around the doc patch for logs 18:09:14 lyxus: either 18:09:21 krtaylor: was it? 18:09:25 and where they should be kept? 18:09:30 that was a question :) 18:09:33 I felt this was motivated by it 18:09:35 ah 18:09:37 yes 18:09:47 I thought this was our suggestions for others 18:10:01 not requirements, but suggestions to help people, if they want 18:10:25 I think it's a good thing to specify that the logs should be freely availble and not altered in anyways (no dropbox or box, etc..) 18:10:34 so given the current suggestions, I'm wondering if anyone is willing to put together a patch to offer to third_party.rst 18:10:49 but the apache etc... should be a suggestions, some people would use nginx, etc... 18:10:57 lyxus: can you expand what you mean by not alterned 18:11:10 how does dropbox alter them? 18:11:14 * altered 18:11:27 yeah altered 18:12:11 You want an example ? 18:12:15 sure 18:12:25 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11r10ij1gbejw8b/AABSFSAXduSlQUsIktiruNYHa 18:12:43 I want to see what is run, i have to download the file and search in it 18:12:50 ah 18:12:57 you have me at download 18:13:05 files must be browsable 18:13:13 that is in a patch for requirements 18:13:18 another vendor http://119.15.112.63/ci_midokura_logs_2014-06-30-171123/logs/ 18:13:31 we haven't gotten there yet in the agenda 18:13:33 anteaya, do we need a new patch? or add to your existing one? 18:13:40 let's have a new one 18:13:41 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101227/ 18:13:48 mine is a requirement 18:13:59 these are suggestions for how to meet the reuqirement 18:14:21 anteaya, understood, a how-to type discussion, gotcha 18:14:37 lyxus: and thanks for the link on the midokura logs, I will send an email after the meeting 18:14:43 krtaylor: right 18:14:50 ok, since you are out, I'll take that one 18:14:58 krtaylor: awesome thanks 18:15:00 anteaya, there are not the only one. It's just an example 18:15:38 lyxus: any other examples you find where folks are expecting openstack devs to download logs please bring them to the attention of me, krtaylor or anyone in infra 18:15:50 so we can address this and get browsable logs for devs 18:16:00 anteaya, ok will do 18:16:03 shall we move to the next item, krtaylor? 18:16:03 sorry 18:16:09 #action krtaylor to document how-to for hosting requirements in third_party.rst 18:16:13 whatis wrong with midokura logs? 18:16:21 anteaya, typing fast as I can :) 18:16:44 luqas: in firefox you are forced to download them 18:16:51 krtaylor: you are doing great 18:16:53 #topic time to report test results 18:16:58 oh, I see 18:17:15 I didn't know 18:17:16 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ThirdPartyTimeLimits 18:17:25 luqas: hence the need for this meeting :D 18:17:40 what do I need to be browsable in firefox? 18:17:45 ok, new etherpad for time limits discussion, this is a general requirement 18:17:50 anteaya: yep :) 18:17:55 this etherpad was to be sweston's email to the ml about how long it takes for tests to report 18:18:05 sweston is on a plane right now 18:18:16 I have put a comment for that too on the etherpad :) 18:18:29 this is an important point we should discuss, can anyone take this and put together an email for the ml 18:18:46 well we can roll that into a patch discussion for third_party.rst 18:18:52 we need to get some consensus around length of time to wait for results 18:18:54 but it should be discussed on ml 18:19:06 yes let's hash it out on the ml first 18:19:08 we may need by-project times too 18:19:14 too hard 18:19:26 if a ci has mulitple projects it is tracking 18:19:29 because one may need faster results than another 18:19:34 and how to we enforce? 18:19:41 thats the question 18:19:48 same as log retention = 1 month 18:19:52 else, slow = missed 18:19:52 anteaya: i think 12 hours is fair (e.g. we only have 3 nodes that often get backed up during crunch times) 18:19:57 we should aim to find one timeframe 18:20:11 kevinbenton: I look forward to hearing responses to that on the ml 18:20:11 kevinbenton, +1 18:20:21 previous discussions have been 4 hours 18:20:21 kevinbenton: would you be willing to start the ml thread? 18:20:27 in nova at least 18:20:35 kevinbenton: +1 18:20:36 we need both ci admins and devs to weigh in 18:20:44 absolutely 18:20:55 can someone start this discussion on the ml? 18:21:01 anteaya: sure. what tag should i put in the subject? just [openstack-dev]? 18:21:17 if you post to the -dev ml don't use that tag 18:21:21 it is the default 18:21:30 use [3rd party] 18:21:33 kevinbenton, thanks, I'll jump in on that one too 18:21:40 then the post will have both tags 18:21:46 anteaya: ok 18:21:48 thanks 18:22:09 anteaya, if you dont mind, I'd rather keep it consisstent with the meeting 18:22:18 #action kevinbenton to start ml discussion on -dev regard time to post test results 18:22:22 krtaylor: good point 18:22:23 third-party 18:22:27 yes 18:22:35 that is one of my peeves, but it is a nit 18:22:40 can you use tag [third-party] kevinbenton? 18:22:44 it is a good nit 18:22:54 anteaya: sure 18:22:59 great 18:23:33 ok that was the discussion for last weeks items, lets move on 18:23:45 #topic Announcements 18:24:01 I have nothing here 18:24:06 anyone have any ? 18:24:34 I'll take that as a no 18:24:36 next 18:24:45 #topic OpenStack Program Items 18:25:13 So, there are the existing patches for third_party.rst 18:25:26 please do review them 18:25:43 and please use the topic third-party for your patches 18:25:57 so we can all track them easily 18:26:13 ++ 18:26:19 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101013/ 18:26:21 and 18:26:32 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101227/ 18:26:44 oh there are 5 18:26:48 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/config+branch:master+topic:third-party,n,z 18:26:52 is probably easier 18:27:09 yes, good point 18:27:22 any discussion on these for today? 18:27:36 let's move on, we can discuss in review 18:27:55 I'd rather get to new business 18:28:25 yep. next 18:28:30 thanks 18:28:32 #topic Deadlines & Deprecations 18:28:58 anything to communicate here? 18:29:05 any upcoming deadlines? 18:29:08 anyone from cinder here? 18:29:31 I was talking to someone who felt there was no third party requirement from cinder 18:29:46 hi, i'm from cinder 18:29:48 and I believe there is 18:29:56 hi asselin 18:29:56 asselin: hi there 18:30:00 glad you are here 18:30:12 was hoping a cinder core was here 18:30:27 well, there is a requirement, the problem is what and when :) 18:30:28 asselin: what do you understand about third party deadlines for cinder 18:30:36 krtaylor: true 18:30:39 we're supposed to have it setup by J2 18:30:44 okay great 18:30:50 for all icehouse drivers 18:30:56 great 18:31:01 i.e. new drivers are optional 18:31:11 interesting 18:31:33 I will need to follow up with jgriffith and ensure I understand what that means 18:31:37 because I don't right now 18:31:46 but thanks for sharing your understanding asselin 18:31:51 yes, and what will be tested 18:31:59 mestery: what is current for neutron? 18:32:09 that means is that jgriffith did not want to add additional load to new vendors submitting drivers in Juno. 18:32:22 anteaya: The requirement here is that all in-tree drivers need to have functioning CI up and running 2 weeks prior to Juno-2. 18:32:33 * mestery can dig the email up he sent to the list a month ago. 18:32:40 mestery: and how far away is 2 weeks prior to juno 18:32:41 so he's giving them more time to setup 3rd party ci 18:32:48 and think that is next week 18:32:59 anteaya: July 10 I think. 18:33:01 anteaya: Correct. 18:33:04 asselin: okay, would be good to get the timeframes so we can communicate them 18:33:29 mestery: okay and what systems need to show something different than they are doing today by July 10th? 18:33:33 mestery, I didn't know it was 2 weeks before J2. we should have jgriffith clarify 18:33:44 asselin: mestery is neutron 18:33:52 asselin: we haev switched programs 18:34:11 asselin: Yes, we're on neutron now. :) 18:34:18 anteaya, ok, great, so cinder's still J2 :) 18:34:31 anteaya: I am just going back through the emails and looking at data now, I should reply to my thread with the timelines post this meeting. 18:34:38 asselin: I'm not setting policy for cinder, I'm asking what cinder's policy is so I know 18:34:39 I can ping jungleboyj too 18:34:48 mestery: yes please 18:35:02 anteaya: Will do. 18:35:05 mestery: if they only have a week to demonstrate compliance, they should know it 18:35:08 mestery: thanks 18:35:09 I can look it up in the cinder meeting minutes 18:35:17 anteaya: Yes, good point. :) 18:35:23 asselin: let's try for clarity for next week 18:35:28 anyone here from nova? 18:35:41 #action communicate cinder and neutron timeline 18:35:50 thanks krtaylor 18:35:51 I have not heard anything new for nova, there was some discussion about raising the bar at summit 18:35:57 anteaya: Actually, per my original email, I just indicated Juno-2, not 2 weeks prior, so I guess people have 3 weeks left :) 18:36:03 anteaya: I need to stick to what I emailed out. 18:36:09 let's check in with nova and see what current expectations are, krtaylor 18:36:13 anteaya: If people do not comply, we will remove drivers in Juno-3. 18:36:14 but I have not heard anything else about it 18:36:23 mestery: yes, don't change the rules during the game 18:36:27 anteaya: ++ 18:36:40 mestery: let's still give those folks not in compliance that information 18:36:45 mestery: so they know their status 18:36:59 anteaya: Yes, I will reply to the thread and indicate timeframes, etc. 18:37:06 anteaya, I'll make sure we have current state for next week 18:37:06 mestery: great, thank you 18:37:11 anteaya: np 18:37:14 krtaylor: awesome thanks 18:37:23 I've been lax in this topic and that is my fault 18:37:25 anteaya, 16:24:41 navneet1: J2 was our goal. http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2014/cinder.2014-06-25-16.00.log.html 18:37:38 we need to be more assertive here, and get information accurate and spread around 18:37:47 asselin: thanks for finding that 18:38:05 16:24:44 July 27 18:38:29 ok, any other deadlines to talk about? 18:38:58 next item then 18:39:05 #topic Highlighting a Program or Gerrit Account 18:39:51 mestery, lukego - discussion on simple ci setup? 18:39:57 I have found running a 3rd party CI surprisingly hard in practice. This has been due to diverse operational issues, and never actually related to the code under test. I'm going to try setting up a really minimalist CI and see if that works better. The idea and draft code (written over the past hours) is here: https://github.com/SnabbCo/shellci. I plan to use this for a new mech driver that I am offering for Juno. I welcome comment 18:39:57 and ideas :). 18:39:58 The initial inspiration is the script that I got from the OpenDaylight developers which is short and effective. I hope the new script will work for my driver and then be useful at least as a reference to others too. 18:39:59 See also mailing list thread: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-June/038951.html 18:40:38 mestery: your thoughts? 18:40:39 * mestery reads lukego's comments here. 18:41:16 lukego, if that works for you, please share as I'm also interested in looking at it. 18:41:24 lukego, I share your pain, we have looked at ways to simplify too 18:41:29 anteaya: In general, I like this idea. As long as what we're mostly concerned about is the result, this looks slick! 18:41:40 lukego: Do you accept pull requests? ;) 18:41:50 yep. but code budget is strictly 100 lines :) 18:41:50 mestery: are we going to see actual test results this time? 18:42:11 anteaya: I think that's lukego's goal indeed. 18:42:26 I think the actual difficulty of 3rd party actually surprised a lot of people 18:42:27 mestery: you are the ptl and you are the one with untested code in master 18:42:33 mestery: so it is your decision 18:42:42 anteaya: Got it. 18:42:52 krtaylor: yes 18:42:52 anteaya: I'd like to see what comes of this and get some infra input as well. 18:43:04 the goal is definitely to fulfil the 3rd party requirements as written in the wiki 18:43:06 mestery: do add an item to the infra agenda 18:43:13 mestery: so that you don't get lost in the crowd 18:43:42 anteaya: Good idea, will do that once lukego has this fleshed out a bit more. 18:43:45 lukego: does this handle cases where the system stalls during package retrieval or code checkout? 18:43:54 the third party requirements aren't written in the wiki, they are written here: http://ci.openstack.org/third_party.html 18:44:12 and that document has a number of patches to it, as linked above 18:44:18 * krtaylor is lost in reading about shellci and must come back to meeting 18:44:25 kevinbenton: not yet, but yes it’s a requirement to differentiate those “CI is stuck” issues from actual test failures, to a reasonable extent. (don’t vote -1 unless Tempest say something is wrong.) 18:44:27 * mestery was busy posting review comments on those patches during this meeting. 18:44:39 mestery: thank you 18:44:51 anteaya: np 18:45:08 lukego: yes, the other case to watch for that might be caused by the patch is neutron fails to start in devstack 18:46:03 kevinbenton: please post these ideas to the ML thread! I have had about 4 different weird operational issues and I would love to know what else people have seen — as geneal themes for which parts of the script can go wrong and how to avoid misvotings that could screw up workflows 18:46:12 * krtaylor will have to look into log publishing and storage 18:46:51 kevinbenton, I actually did this test too. I fix the package retrieval issue by mirroring locally the server ubuntu/pypi 18:47:01 *fixed 18:47:06 krtaylor: I'd like to ensure we have some time for stackatlytics discussion too today, though it isn't on the agenda 18:47:31 anteaya, agreed, this topic is rather open-ended 18:47:40 anteaya: i'm ready :) 18:47:46 lukego, thanks for sharing this, I will read more about it 18:48:04 ok, lets move on then 18:48:21 #topic Open Discussion 18:48:37 so actually I want to talk about stackalytics 18:48:43 and thanks ilyashakhat__ for being here 18:48:46 anteaya: me too 18:48:50 ilyashakhat__, yes, thanks 18:48:59 anteaya: about http://stackalytics.com/report/ci/neutron/7 18:49:01 I'd like to being by saying thank you for making that change to diverlog 18:49:12 that you agreed to do, I appreciate that 18:49:35 and at some point I would like to get back to discussing driverlog, since I think there are more ways to improve that page 18:49:41 it was easy change 18:49:52 but I think the topic at hand is what Sukhdev has posted 18:50:02 #link http://stackalytics.com/report/ci/neutron/7 18:50:08 so let's start here 18:50:17 ilyashakhat__: it was nice of you to make that change, thank you 18:50:26 yes, Sukhdev already found bug with this report (with missing CI) 18:50:33 good 18:50:51 so my concern with this is the concern I mentioned on the ml 18:51:06 Sukhdev, there was ml discussion on this, on what was being asked, it is slightly different than this 18:51:06 we don't have a way of assessing fitness of a given ci system 18:51:07 yes 18:51:31 100% success to me indicates a broken system 18:51:45 since there are failures which it is missing 18:51:45 it was mentioned that there needs to be a list of who is expected to post and if they actually did 18:51:51 right 18:51:53 100% for merged patches is ok, but for all looks suspicious 18:52:00 and that is a different conversation, krtaylor 18:52:20 krtaylor: that conversation is how devs need to access information to decide patch flow 18:52:23 anteaya, but that is the one Sukhdev posted the link for 18:52:29 krtaylor: not sure which ML discussion you referrering to - I saw ML discussion with ilyashakhat__ and anteaya 18:52:31 ilyashakhat__: how is success determined? 18:52:41 ilyashakhat__: right 18:52:42 right now BSN doesn’t downvote on failure 18:52:54 we don't have a criteria for success 18:53:10 well, that is the question we must document 18:53:14 'success' = ci voted +1 or left comment with positive result 18:53:16 ilyashakhat__: Even Arista does not vote -1 on failures 18:53:30 ilyashakhat__: but that is not success 18:53:40 for that cases it is possible to extract result from comments 18:53:42 a -1 could be a success too 18:53:42 since that gives false results 18:53:53 we need to determine accuracy of a system 18:54:04 and we don't have a way for doing that in the community 18:54:07 krtaylor: what do you mean "-1 is success"? 18:54:22 ilyashakhat__: successfully identified a broken patch 18:54:24 ilyashakhat__, if a patch is bad 18:54:27 and until we do, every time someone makes up a definition, it disrupts our ability to have that conversation 18:54:32 krtaylor: got it :) 18:54:33 ilyashakhat__: can you see that? 18:54:40 means CI which only comment on failure will be counted as a success 18:54:40 then ci did what it was supposed to do 18:55:05 ilyashakhat__: can you see that? 18:55:18 no, we need to separate voting and testing 18:55:25 It’s scary to enable -1 voting because the effect of casting a -1 is a bit unpredictable. (does it cause a hundred people’s work to stall by screwing up a workflow somewhere? etc) 18:55:30 can you see that making up definitions prevents us from arriving at our definition? 18:55:38 krtaylor: I agree 18:55:47 lukego, FULLY agree 18:55:59 fawadkhaliq: not exactly, it is possible to set pattern for positive result and for negative, however the CI must report about success results too 18:56:09 especially when the majority of failures are caused by “other environmental issues” and should not be -1’s 18:56:30 ilyashakhat__: can you see that making up definitions prevents us from arriving at our definition? 18:56:35 hard to keep a CI running reliably even before you worry about false negatives. 18:56:39 lukego, that's why i do manual -1 18:56:43 testing a patchset and publishing a result, without CI system failure is a successful run 18:56:54 regardless of vote 18:57:06 ilyashakhat__: can you anwser my question, please 18:57:17 anteaya: sorry, what was the question? 18:57:21 ilyashakhat__: can you see that making up definitions prevents us from arriving at our definition? 18:57:24 lyxus: How do you get notified that there is a failure to review, and how do you post the -1 ? 18:58:00 ilyashakhat__: let's talk about this offline. I see some CIs failed with comments and they are counted as a success. 18:58:15 fawadkhaliq: let's talk about this ONLINE 18:58:16 anteaya: hmmm, don't quite understand such difficult question 18:58:30 ilyashakhat__: what do you not understand 18:58:41 anteaya: sure, even better :) 18:58:42 what "definition" you mean 18:59:05 ilyashakhat__: I am asking if you are willing to stop making up stackalytic definitions of success 18:59:10 for third party ci systems 18:59:23 and allow the openstack community to arrive at those defintions 18:59:29 lukego, I use Jenkins; I do a test if neutron is up , if it's not I dod a ' exit 1' which make the jenkins build fail. In jenkins, i have post build which is to send me an email when it fails 18:59:29 are you willing to do that 18:59:52 ilyashakhat__: plese respond before we are out of time 18:59:58 anteaya: What if we had a status as - CI operational or not operational 18:59:59 ilyashakhat__: anteaya: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102101/ is an example 19:00:15 1 minute warning :) 19:00:18 ilyashakhat__: please respond before we are out of time 19:00:30 anteaya: please give an example 19:00:40 I've given you many on the ml 19:00:45 and we are out of time 19:00:46 PLUMgrid CI failed and http://stackalytics.com/report/ci/neutron/7 reports 100% success 19:00:47 fine 19:00:54 yes, time to wrap this up 19:00:56 I will continue to chase you down on teh ml 19:01:03 fawadkhaliq: I'll look at it 19:01:10 ilyashakhat__: thanks a lot 19:01:10 thanks everyone 19:01:16 thanks 19:01:20 #endmeeting