09:00:20 <cdent> #startmeeting tc
09:00:21 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Jun 19 09:00:20 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
09:00:22 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
09:00:25 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'tc'
09:00:29 <cdent> #chair ttx cmurphy
09:00:30 <openstack> Current chairs: cdent cmurphy ttx
09:00:45 <cdent> we talked about maybe not using meetbot, but haven't decided yet, so there it is
09:01:33 <cdent> anyone here?
09:01:57 <ttx> o/
09:02:03 <cdent> mornin'
09:02:24 <ttx> I have a topic!
09:02:55 <cmurphy> ohai
09:03:19 <ttx> OpenStack Days China is this week, and they are as always hungry for directions on where to contribute to make a difference. So we need to make sure our help-most-needed list is up to date
09:03:30 <ttx> Is there anything you'd remove from it ? add to it ?
09:03:39 <ttx> https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/help-most-needed.html
09:04:36 <ttx> StoryBoard is a bit struggling with contributions, at a point where we'd like more of OpenStack to migrate to it
09:04:49 <ttx> not sure it counts as strategic though
09:05:09 <ttx> Barbican might also need some support, as we make it a base service option
09:05:37 <cdent> I think if we ever want storyboard to be a thing it needs more of a sense of team and centrality to the org. The tools we use are as (or more) important than what we are building with them.
09:05:51 <ttx> Should we keep infra/doc/glance/designate on the list ?
09:06:38 <cmurphy> i think we brought up osc as a possible candidate for the list
09:06:43 <ttx> yeah, I'm worried the current team is more of one person doing it on their free time, combined with a number of Foundation staff trying to help keep it afloat
09:06:44 <cdent> I haven't got enough insight into those projects without speaking to the associated folk.
09:06:49 <ttx> (StoryBoard)
09:06:59 <cdent> cmurphy: osc is a good one
09:07:33 <cmurphy> the keystone team also keeps floating the idea of requesting to be on the list, though objectively i think we're in a better situation than osc or glance or designate
09:08:05 <ttx> We won't be able to change the list in time for the event (it's this week), but I can supply a list of "extra candidates"
09:08:15 <ttx> osc is a good one yes
09:08:47 <cdent> Matt R and I sent quite a bit of useful nova- and placement- related stuff to the associated hackathon
09:10:07 <ttx> The "doc owner" entry in the list sounds a bit past, related to the Doc transition that was completed since
09:10:24 <ttx> If we want to keep it there, we should probably refresh the text
09:10:39 * cdent nods
09:10:52 <ttx> Any other hot suggestion ?
09:11:13 <ttx> (I'll ask again later today when Murica is up
09:11:52 <cdent> cmurphy: I'm curious about the keystone situation: is it that there aren't enough people to do what's on the plate, or that there's a desire to have the plate bigger and thus more people are needed?
09:12:21 <cdent> I ask because I would have thought that keystone, being, uh, key, would be less likely to suffer than others
09:14:31 <cmurphy> cdent: right, keystone being so integral to other projects means we're saddled with requests from not just end users but other openstack projects
09:14:46 <ttx> I'm also not totally convinced by the "Goal champions" on that list, as it sounds less directly actionable than other items.
09:14:47 <cmurphy> fixing policy is the main thing
09:15:00 <cmurphy> the quota management is the other big request
09:15:34 <cdent> ah, so it is kind of the standard: hey we need a thing do it! without the accompanying "and here's some people to help"?
09:15:46 <cmurphy> right
09:16:26 <ttx> cdent: I've come to think it's a side-effect of the vertical silos we built. It's seen as "someone else's problem" to make it happen
09:16:28 <cdent> ttx I agree. I don't think that's sufficiently concrete. However the reason I think it is on there, if I remember right, was because we wanted to draw attention to the fact that goal champions are important, valued, required, etc. If we remove it from this list we should make sure it remains highlighted somewhere else.
09:16:41 <cdent> Perhaps by the job reqs that got talked about at the last combined leadership meeting
09:16:44 <ttx> cdent: yeah
09:16:59 <cdent> yes, I agree with that interpretation of the silos
09:17:27 <ttx> One of the multiple reasons why I'd like to reorganize work around objectives rather than code boundaries
09:17:50 <cdent> me too, but that's a _shift_
09:17:59 <ttx> oh yes.
09:18:31 <ttx> I think that's key to the long-term health of the project, but I'm also doubtful we can manage such a transition :)
09:18:53 <cdent> an untrained ear would think you just said, "we're doooooomed"
09:19:38 <ttx> organizing work across code boundaries was great in the "abundance" period. Organizing work around specific objective / functions across code boundaries is a lot better when you have more limited resources
09:21:06 <ttx> cdent: I'll keep on advocating for it. One soft way to drive it is to promote more of the SIG approach
09:21:21 <ttx> But we need to fix the ML situation first
09:22:08 <cdent> I think in the meantime there's a lot more aspirational writing we could be doing (as individuals and as the official tc)
09:22:19 <ttx> Also reminds me of that discussion around having people caring about the compute node, since it runs much more than Nova code those days
09:22:31 * cdent nods
09:23:20 <ttx> The SIG approach is gradual, but tricky as people see it as signing up for more work
09:23:55 <ttx> but we digress
09:24:04 <cdent> were we on a path?
09:24:28 <ttx> help most needed list -- but maybe we are done with suggestions there
09:25:54 <cdent> ah, I felt like we were still on that path, at least tangentially.
09:26:13 <cdent> From my standpoint when it comes to "help" we keep coming back to two things:
09:26:23 <ttx> cdent: I welcome your input on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/project-team-guide-basic-design-tenets-chapter
09:26:31 <ttx> (tangent)
09:26:45 <cdent> key projects struggling to keep up with requests (what cmurphy just said, basically)
09:27:10 <cdent> and, needing people with license to operate in a silo-violating (cross-project) fashion
09:27:45 <cdent> while asking for help on specific instances of those issues moves things along, it's cultural change that will fix them
09:28:04 <cdent> will stick that etherpad in my look-soon list
09:28:54 <ttx> thx!
09:33:33 <ttx> cdent: re: TC get-together, saw my suggestion of Edimburgh above ?
09:35:14 <cdent> ah, no, haven't caught up yet
09:35:27 <cdent> and just discovered I'm late for an appointment I thought was tomorrow :(
09:36:58 <ttx> run rnu
09:45:51 * ttx does some project health review
10:08:16 <cmurphy> #endmeeting