14:00:28 <mihalis68> #startmeeting Ops Meetup Team
14:00:28 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Mar 20 14:00:28 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mihalis68. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:29 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:00:31 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'ops_meetup_team'
14:00:41 <mihalis68> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ops-meetups-team
14:01:27 <smcginnis> o/
14:01:34 <jamesmcarthur> o/
14:01:44 <mrhillsman> o/
14:02:18 <mihalis68> o/
14:02:26 <mihalis68> hello everyone!
14:02:34 <mihalis68> #topic actions
14:02:50 <shintaro> hi
14:02:51 <mihalis68> I ask people to self-report their actions
14:03:06 <mihalis68> I have a few in my queue
14:03:23 <mihalis68> work on the ops guide wiki  - no progress other than the discussion in tokyo
14:03:29 <shintaro> Done Tokyo!
14:03:38 <mihalis68> and very well done it was too!
14:03:52 <smcginnis> Thanks for the great work shintaro!
14:03:56 <mihalis68> I'm also working on a proposal to host in august, but we don't have anything yet
14:04:02 <shintaro> thank you
14:04:48 <mihalis68> any more actions to report?
14:05:03 <jamesmcarthur> mihalis68: Not sure if this fits in on the actions side or not...
14:05:38 <mihalis68> actually one update on the ops guide wiki from Anne - she looked into setting an approver for that wiki, but couldn't find a setting. It seems (according to her) she was remembering a setting available in the women of openstack wiki (only)
14:05:53 <jamesmcarthur> But I wanted to note that the Foundation staff really wants to help the Ops community have a successful event.
14:06:18 <mihalis68> so we actually don't have much of  a plan for documents that come out of core openstack docs into community-edited wikis
14:06:29 <jamesmcarthur> I've been working on a lengthly email with some thoughts and would like to solicit feedback from this group before sending it to the larger Ops mailing list.
14:06:53 <mihalis68> sure
14:07:12 <jamesmcarthur> Great :) I'll send out after the meeting today.
14:07:36 <mihalis68> #topic tokyo recap
14:08:09 <mihalis68> I emailed the ops meetups team with some thoughts on how tokyo went. Shintaro responded, but we haven't shared that with the wider community just yet
14:08:16 <mihalis68> should I cut and paste here?
14:08:57 <shintaro> or on the etherpad?
14:09:01 <mrhillsman> ^
14:09:18 <mrhillsman> i think i responded - albeit very short response :)
14:10:14 <mihalis68> I just dumped them in todays agenda
14:11:19 <mihalis68> the things we need to do better next time are:
14:11:27 <mihalis68> verify moderators at the beginning of each
14:11:29 <mihalis68> day
14:11:41 <mihalis68> have a master of ceremonies for each room if more than one
14:11:57 <mihalis68> e.g. shintaro was in the telecom track room quite a lot and the main room didn't have anyone in charge
14:12:29 <mihalis68> more consideration of language issues
14:13:00 <shintaro> language issues are more likely in Asian countries
14:13:11 <mihalis68> we ended up having to suggest having translator support for some people who tried to participate in english but struggled. Now of course my japanese is ... none ... so definitely not a criciticism
14:13:44 <mihalis68> anyone else have suggestions for the future based on how it went in Tokyo?
14:14:47 <shintaro> We need more promotion on agenda creation. and if possible, ask the attendees to put in some contents before the meetup.
14:14:50 <mihalis68> I also felt that the "working session" concept met with varying success, let's say
14:15:15 <mihalis68> yes, the agenda and moderators are the heart of the event, and the biggest struggle
14:15:30 <mrhillsman> i think the working session came from new york and milan
14:15:47 <mihalis68> for example : I put ceph on the proposed topics list, it received several +1s, so I volunteered to moderate that session
14:15:54 <mihalis68> however I ended up doing more of a ceph lecture
14:15:57 <mrhillsman> or were more successful there because there were folks from UC working groups / teams in attendance
14:16:15 <mihalis68> it was definitely "working sessions" in my first ops event (Philadelphia/comcast)
14:17:06 <mrhillsman> mexico city was the only one for me that did not have
14:17:17 <mrhillsman> not even on the agenda i mean
14:17:35 <mihalis68> mexico city was working sessions, not sure what you're saying
14:18:22 <mihalis68> for example the first session was documentation. I moderated but it was a roundtable discussion style thing, definitely not a presentation
14:18:28 <shintaro> Good balance of ops and devs/foundation seems to work better
14:19:25 <mihalis68> yeah, for those not there there was a very interesting discussion on the often-discussed idea of somehow merging ops meetups and ptg
14:20:14 <mrhillsman> i think of working sessions as actually working on something vs discussion
14:20:41 <mrhillsman> discussion could be presentation and/or going through an etherpad
14:20:51 <smcginnis> Maybe we need to change it from "moderator" to something else. To me at least, my expectation was moderating would just involve asking leading questions and making sure everyone got a chance to speak. But it sounds like we are actually looking for moderators to be closer to be something more than that.
14:21:15 <mrhillsman> just my perspective/definition difference
14:21:25 <mrhillsman> but i got you
14:21:42 <mihalis68> moderating is meant to be what you say Sean, as I understand it, however when the room is unresponsive you have to adapt or it feels like failing
14:22:08 <mrhillsman> ^
14:22:08 <smcginnis> It seemed like there was an expectation of a lot more background preparation.
14:22:09 <mihalis68> I mean, the tradition handed down by Tom has always been that the moderator is just a faciitator
14:22:38 <mihalis68> for LTS in mexico, for example just a few comments were needed to light the room on fire (metaphorically speaking!)
14:23:02 <mihalis68> we had ops with strong feelings, representatives of distros who want this to happen e.g. maria from redhat
14:23:27 <mihalis68> that conversation was definitely "working together" not a presentation from the front (although there's no code involved)
14:23:39 <jamesmcarthur> Perhaps a light agenda for each working session would help facilitate things?
14:23:58 <jamesmcarthur> I mean, come in with some goals and discussion points for the gropu.
14:23:59 <mrhillsman> ^ we have those
14:24:06 <mihalis68> we did have that for most sessions, but for some of them the room was quite unresponsive
14:24:12 <jamesmcarthur> got it
14:24:14 <jamesmcarthur> that's frustrating
14:24:40 <mihalis68> I suspect culture and language were more of an impediment that I had previously anticipated
14:24:51 <mrhillsman> sounds like it
14:25:20 <jamesmcarthur> One of the ideas we've been discussing with the UC (and I discuss this a bit in my email) is to start putting Ops tracks in OpenStack Days.
14:25:23 <mihalis68> one of the local attendees felt the need to tell his fellow attendees to speak up and not feel intimidated. He mentioned that a -1 on a code review can feel like personal rejection, for example
14:25:51 <mrhillsman> maybe not so much of a problem but rather enlightening factor
14:26:05 <jamesmcarthur> Maybe if we get some feedback from users at the OpenStack Days events, that would provide some more ammo to spark conversation.
14:26:08 <mihalis68> yes, my goal in mentioning is to work out how to do even better in future evnts
14:26:31 <mrhillsman> i think also jamesmcarthur that can help ^
14:26:43 <mrhillsman> to know beforehand culture/language nuances
14:27:18 <mihalis68> One interesting bit of info, PTG may not continue as is. Without getting into too much detail, the next one is the last one guaranteed to happen
14:27:37 <mihalis68> so any plan to merge ops meetups into those is already questionable
14:27:58 <jamesmcarthur> mihalis68: that's not been decided yet
14:28:04 <mrhillsman> ^
14:28:05 <shintaro> I think I need to train local ops on how to do working sessions since they have not attended PTG nor Forum before.
14:28:06 <mihalis68> that's what Ann told me
14:28:07 <smcginnis> We should know after the board of directors meeting right before the Vancouver summit.
14:28:24 <mihalis68> I'm not saying they won't happen after then, only that they are not guaranteed to happen
14:28:38 <jamesmcarthur> Perhaps a miscommunication, but it's definitely still on the table.
14:29:09 <mrhillsman> shintaro i think that is a good comment in general and to jamesmcarthur point may be helped via openstack days, local user groups having some format for facilitating ops meetup like sessions
14:30:01 <mihalis68> I'm not betting the farm on openstack days - openstack days east simply didn't happen last year (the ones for this neck of the woods)
14:31:02 <smcginnis> I wonder though if the ops meetup was linked to it, if that would make it more likely to always happen.
14:31:05 <mrhillsman> that's fine no concern for those that do not happen :)
14:31:19 <mrhillsman> pretty sure there are some user groups that are listed that are not active
14:31:37 <aprice> mihalis68: there are several OpenStack Days around the world that have voiced interest in having this event as the users and operators and interested in that kind of opportunity, particularly in Europe and Asia where the events continue to grow.
14:31:49 <mrhillsman> but for those that are there are probably some things that could be helped using those that are
14:32:20 <mihalis68> Oh definitely. When openstack days happen, I think operators should attend! I was disappointed we didn't get one in NE USA last year
14:32:38 <mihalis68> in the meanwhile, though, there seemed good interest in a traditional Ops Meetup in NYC in August this year
14:33:07 <mihalis68> by the way, the nature of sessions at those events is described fairly clear here:
14:33:07 <mihalis68> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Operations/Meetups
14:33:40 <mihalis68> we had "general sessions" which we hoped would require light moderation, but in the end needed quite strong, active leading by the moderator
14:35:21 <mihalis68> Any more for Tokyo recap?
14:35:26 <mrhillsman> timecheck - 25 minues :)
14:35:43 <mihalis68> #topic august 2018 meetup
14:36:01 <mihalis68> as mentioned, Bloomberg is trying to obtain a venue and make a proposal for an Ops Meetup in NYC, August this year
14:36:23 <shintaro> I will put up some statistics on the etherpad later.
14:36:24 <mihalis68> unfortunately Civic Hall (the venue we provided in august 2016) has ditched that space
14:36:39 <mihalis68> we are talking to another similar organization, but can't show any results yet
14:37:08 <mihalis68> along with Bloomberg, Verizon and Walmart have strong interest in that event, since they have teams in the region
14:37:14 <jamesmcarthur> So, this is also in the email, but we are able to host at the PTG in North America, but we would need to know by April 4.
14:37:35 <mrhillsman> personally, just my .02 of course, i think we should really resolve concerns related to ^
14:37:36 <mihalis68> When I read the definition of PTG, it is not for me.
14:37:45 <mrhillsman> like ^
14:37:48 <jamesmcarthur> If it was hosted there, Ops Meetup would get its own space, branding, etc..
14:37:50 <mihalis68> This was discussed quite a bit in Tokyo
14:38:10 <smcginnis> I think that would be great to make sure there was still separate branding and space.
14:38:16 <jamesmcarthur> mihalis68: up to this point, it's been for Project Teams. However, the event could certainly change to fit the OPs Meetup as well.
14:38:22 <smcginnis> Same event, just happens to be at the same time and place as the PTG.
14:38:25 <jamesmcarthur> We'd even consider renaming it.
14:38:30 <smcginnis> Allowing at least some cross-polination.
14:38:55 <jamesmcarthur> But yeah... it would allow for evening conversations and such, which I think could be fruitful for the whole community.
14:39:02 <mihalis68> yes, I contend it would have to change, and in which case many things become possible
14:39:48 <jamesmcarthur> If you all decided to hold the Ops Meetup there, it has already been agreed that the branding around the event and space would be adapted for your needs.
14:39:51 <mihalis68> here's what it says currently
14:39:51 <mihalis68> "Who Should Not Attend
14:39:51 <mihalis68> The event is not optimized for non-contributors or people who can’t relate to a specific project team. Each team is given a single room and attendees are expected to spend all their time with their project team. Attendees who can’t pick a specific team to work with are encouraged to skip the event in favor of attending the OpenStack Summit, where a broader range of topics is discussed."
14:40:00 <jamesmcarthur> Right. I'm saying that would change.
14:40:03 <mihalis68> ok good
14:40:09 <mrhillsman> like summit and opendev
14:40:10 <jamesmcarthur> Because now it would be both Ops and a Project Teams meeting.
14:40:14 <mrhillsman> two different events same space
14:40:19 <mihalis68> Ann put it very nicely "when two people move in together, it's important that they both make changes, move their stuff, etc"
14:40:46 <smcginnis> :)
14:40:52 <jamesmcarthur> I would think of it more like you rented an apartment next door and get to see each other in the halls ;)
14:40:58 <mrhillsman> ^
14:41:06 <mrhillsman> i was trying to think of something with less holes lol
14:41:25 <smcginnis> Great analogy. :)
14:41:30 <mrhillsman> same complex different apartments
14:41:38 <mihalis68> Sure. Her comment was very apt for some ideas that were proposed previously where the ops event was sort of like crashing the event and trying to snag people in the hallways
14:42:03 <mrhillsman> hrm, never got that from previous ideas
14:42:17 <mrhillsman> that's unfortunate but good to know
14:42:40 <mihalis68> is the next PTG defined anywhere?
14:43:01 <jamesmcarthur> mihalis68: not yet. It would largely be dependent on if the Ops Meetup were co-located there.
14:43:20 <jamesmcarthur> In which case we would update the language and branding to reflect that.
14:43:35 <jamesmcarthur> It's just a web page at the moment and can easily change :)
14:44:17 <jamesmcarthur> We'd be happy to collaborate with you all to make sure the language reflects the event you want to put on,
14:44:29 <mihalis68> do you have rough dates?
14:44:29 <mrhillsman> should this be voted on? feels like we will just continue to discuss/philosophy without
14:44:38 <jamesmcarthur> So that the Dev and Ops communities are comfortable
14:44:45 <mrhillsman> with traditional as fallback
14:44:57 <jamesmcarthur> week of September 10
14:45:02 <jamesmcarthur> in North America
14:45:04 <smcginnis> 15 minutes
14:45:07 <mrhillsman> or just do it :)
14:45:18 <jamesmcarthur> (all these details are in the email I'm sending over too ftr)
14:45:19 <smcginnis> With NY already in the works, that makes it a little trickier.
14:45:31 <mihalis68> right now we look like having a viable event in august with three sponsors and other stated interest. I'm not sure that's a "fallback"
14:45:42 <smcginnis> But I think if we decided to do this, it might make it more likely that the PTG will continue to be around past September.
14:46:10 <jamesmcarthur> smcginnis: I think it would certainly show the board that it's an important event for the whole community
14:46:51 <jamesmcarthur> mihalis68: Would those sponsors consider sponsoring it at a different venue?
14:46:57 <mrhillsman> "around past September" ?
14:47:01 <smcginnis> Or if it's too late to stop the New York train (or undesired at this point) at least declaring the public intention of aligning with the PTG would be good stuff to bring to the BoD in May.
14:47:06 <mrhillsman> or just around Sept
14:47:16 <mrhillsman> asking because Berlin is Nov of course
14:48:03 <VW> hey guys - sorry for being mia for most of this
14:48:04 <jamesmcarthur> To be clear, we already have a venue and space lined up for September.
14:48:09 <mrhillsman> ok
14:48:13 <mrhillsman> hey VW
14:48:19 <mihalis68> where's the venue?
14:48:41 <jamesmcarthur> We're going into contract with them, so we can't disclose until after April 9.
14:48:44 <smcginnis> jamesmcarthur: And would that venue accomodate another 100+ people for a simultaneous event.
14:48:45 <jamesmcarthur> But it's in the US
14:48:59 <jamesmcarthur> And the date is the week of September 10
14:49:05 <jamesmcarthur> smcginnis: yes
14:49:10 <smcginnis> jamesmcarthur: Can you share what general area of the US?
14:49:16 <smcginnis> East, west, central?
14:49:17 <jamesmcarthur> We just have to give them the word that we want the space by April 4
14:49:20 <jamesmcarthur> Central
14:49:34 <smcginnis> jamesmcarthur: There aren't any trains close by? :)
14:49:42 <mrhillsman> hehe
14:50:04 <mrhillsman> get your hook out the water smcginnis
14:50:15 <VW> smcginnis, mihalis68 - I, myself am a convert to this idea of co-location, so I'm happy to discuss with either of you in more detail offline
14:50:28 <smcginnis> mrhillsman: hehe
14:50:31 <mihalis68> sure
14:50:41 <VW> but I think we can structure the sessions to honor the intent of both of the original events
14:50:56 <smcginnis> VW: I was originally against it when we spoke about it in the past, but I think I've come around to the benefits.
14:51:04 <VW> but also reap the bennifit of after hour social interactions, etc
14:51:10 <smcginnis> VW: Totally agree.
14:51:12 <mihalis68> to answer the question of would the sponsors consider sponsoring a different venue, I am not sure they would tbh
14:51:18 <mrhillsman> same here, just quicker to come around i guess :)
14:51:21 <smcginnis> The after hours part I think could be really beneficial for all.
14:51:28 <aprice> ++
14:51:41 <mrhillsman> 9 minutes ;)
14:51:52 <mihalis68> but it depends on the details. the amounts we put into ops meetups are small and bloomberg is very happy with the cost/benefit
14:52:02 <mihalis68> we declined to sponsor ptg, it was a lot more money
14:52:05 <smcginnis> But I feel like there are a few of us now for this that are dominating the discussion. I don't want to railroad the whole group. (pun intended)
14:52:18 <mihalis68> neither do i and sorry if it seems that way
14:52:26 <mrhillsman> lol
14:53:06 <mrhillsman> i was saying earlier to that i think we need to just write down the concerns and address them
14:53:09 <mrhillsman> if we can at all
14:53:19 <mrhillsman> and if it makes sense, move forward
14:53:25 <smcginnis> Maybe a ML thread?
14:53:28 <mrhillsman> if not, move forward :)
14:53:40 <smcginnis> jamesmcarthur: You were going to start one, first to just us, then the whole list, right?
14:53:45 <jamesmcarthur> should I just send my email to the Ops Mailing list and get the discussion started?
14:53:46 <mrhillsman> april 4th is the deadline for foundation
14:53:48 <mihalis68> I can't speak for verizon and walmart, except to say they are very much looking to send operators to a get-together. Could absolutely be appropriate for a redefined event, but not for the traditional PTG as currently defined
14:54:14 <mihalis68> jamesmcarthur I think the ops mailing list would be the right place to start yes
14:54:25 <jamesmcarthur> alrighty... I'll send and duck ;)
14:54:30 <smcginnis> :)
14:54:34 * VW braces for impact
14:54:59 <mihalis68> this team tries to "facilitate" ops meetups, is not "Ops Board of Directors" or any governance type thing!
14:55:06 <smcginnis> And if anyone here is strongly against it - please don't feel like you should stay quiet just because there are some for it.
14:55:11 <mihalis68> mailing list and voting is the true discussion and decision mechanism
14:55:24 <mrhillsman> ^
14:55:58 <mihalis68> #topic any other business
14:56:08 <mihalis68> think we covered a lot today
14:56:26 <smcginnis> Great discussion.
14:56:29 <mihalis68> 10 am EST seems to be vastly more successful time slot than the previous one
14:56:45 <mrhillsman> ++
14:56:47 <mihalis68> apologies to those for whom it moves around due to us lunatics doing DST
14:57:08 <mrhillsman> :)
14:57:12 <shintaro> and now its 1 hour earlier for me, too
14:57:19 <mrhillsman> your summaries help
14:57:20 <mihalis68> that's... good?
14:57:26 <shintaro> which is good
14:57:33 <mihalis68> ah, good! :)
14:58:00 <mihalis68> my favorite memory of tokyo is still how long it took for those at the table to work out payment arrangements at "Prime Meat" that was hilarious
14:58:18 <VW> math is hard
14:58:28 <smcginnis> Especially after a couple beers. :)
14:58:32 <shintaro> we were too drunk to do the calculation :)_
14:58:35 <mihalis68> especially after ... "socialising"
14:59:08 <VW> nice
14:59:30 <mihalis68> i will say if the event is redefined and welcomes operators, I'd be in favor of convergence and try to drag my companies sponsorship to it
14:59:48 <mihalis68> last call for comments!
15:00:02 <mihalis68> #endmeeting