15:01:31 <Piet> #startmeeting openstack_ux
15:01:31 <openstack> Meeting started Fri Nov 20 15:01:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Piet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:33 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:01:35 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_ux'
15:01:44 <matt-borland> hello
15:01:46 <Piet> Good morning
15:02:07 <Piet> Let's wait four minutes for folks to wonder in
15:02:18 <matt-borland> sounds good
15:05:09 <Piet> Hi Rob, we're waiting for a few minutes for people to wander in
15:06:24 <robcresswell> Sure thing. I'm packing to go away for the weekend, so apologies in advance if my replies are a little slow.
15:06:33 <Piet> np
15:06:40 <Piet> Ok, lets take role
15:06:57 <Piet> show of hands
15:06:58 <julim> hiya
15:07:01 <ducttape_> 0/
15:07:24 <matt-borland> o/
15:07:26 <matt-borland> |
15:07:28 <matt-borland> |
15:07:31 <matt-borland> \
15:07:59 <Piet> So, we need to make sure the new designers are attending this meeting
15:08:35 <Piet> If you don't mind, I'm going to use the time to provide status and let you ask questions
15:08:53 <Piet> #topic personas
15:09:25 <Piet> Stan has added the personas to a wiki for the team.  Note that this is a work-in-progress
15:09:35 <Piet> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_Personas_2015
15:09:56 <julim> it looks good
15:10:17 <Piet> Yep - stan did an awesome job
15:10:58 <Piet> We are planning a survey in two weeks to validate the work and produce additional content
15:11:31 <Piet> tempplate for validation survey can be found at https://docs.google.com/document/d/10r40CkCVXcjiQ7YQMES06wvHDe8JmN2Zur5C0uDytdg/edit?usp=sharing
15:11:42 <Piet> Pls feel free to leave comments
15:13:53 <Piet> Ju, are you able to create definitions for the they different areas of focus?  Hardware, Infrastructure, etc?
15:14:00 <Piet> "the"
15:14:51 <julim> yes
15:15:04 <julim> thanks for reminder
15:15:10 <julim> in survey or epad?
15:15:18 <Piet> Cool - we could also reach-out to Shamial to see if he has time
15:15:38 <Piet> Here - https://docs.google.com/document/d/10r40CkCVXcjiQ7YQMES06wvHDe8JmN2Zur5C0uDytdg/edit?usp=sharing
15:17:01 <Piet> We're hoping to collaborate with the user committee on the survey, but need to understand whether they are able to respond to requests quickly enough
15:17:26 <Piet> julim and I met with them earlier this week
15:17:38 <Piet> Any questions on the personas
15:17:40 <Piet> ?
15:17:55 <Piet> 5
15:17:56 <Piet> 4
15:17:58 <Piet> 3
15:18:01 <Piet> 2
15:18:03 <Piet> 1
15:18:27 <Piet> #topic Move to a UX repository (Gerrit)
15:18:48 <Piet> hurgleburgler are you around?
15:19:40 <Piet> So, we had some issues because the openstack-ux launchpad was taken by someone else
15:20:23 <Piet> I believe it was created a few years ago when a UX project was first being proposed
15:21:23 <Piet> So, we're trying to sort this all out.  hurgleburgler is helping with this effort
15:22:06 <Piet> The intent is to have the approval process happen in gerrit with reviews in Invision (until we move to pholio)
15:22:35 <Piet> Any questions?
15:22:41 <robcresswell> Yeah
15:22:49 <robcresswell> Have we decided on how that actually works yet?
15:23:01 <Piet> Reviews in Gerritt?
15:23:04 <robcresswell> As in, what are we actually approving... a link?
15:23:08 <ducttape_> the review should have attached a pdf / jpg / png I think
15:23:19 <ducttape_> possibly a link to invision too, in the comments
15:23:30 <Piet> ducttape_ yep
15:23:44 <ducttape_> but we try to do the preliminary work in invision, to flush out 90% of the questions / issues
15:23:48 <hurgleburgler> (◠‿◠✿)ノ
15:24:15 <Piet> The issue with Invision is that PDFs that include comments can be 75+ pages, so you need to create a PDF with just the images and link to Invision for comments
15:24:22 <ducttape_> does that seem ok robcresswell?   you'd have a version of some pdf or images then residing in the repo?
15:24:35 <Piet> ducctape_ yep
15:24:57 <robcresswell> Hmm, I suppose
15:25:08 <robcresswell> Interesting anyway, I'll have a think on it :)
15:25:14 <ducttape_> the first review will be a learning experience.  it will be weird initially
15:25:30 <robcresswell> I like that we're moving openstack tooling though
15:25:40 <hurgleburgler> me too
15:25:54 <Piet> I believe one of the responsibility of the cores is to confirm that they actually answered any questions in Invision
15:25:59 <ducttape_> we might see if openstack infra can setup gerrit to better show images / other file types
15:26:07 <robcresswell> Also may need a UXImpact for cross-project bugs etc.
15:26:14 <Piet> painful, but think its the right thing to do
15:26:15 <robcresswell> Worth chatting to the docs folks about how to tackle that
15:27:03 <Piet> yep -  I'm actually speaking with a few of the docs folks that are interested in providing content for the UIs
15:27:10 <hurgleburgler> Did Jaromir changed ownership of the ux-core group yet?
15:27:54 <Piet> hurgleburgler I believe he changed ownership to infra
15:28:44 <hurgleburgler> https://launchpad.net/openstack-ux is infra now
15:28:53 <Piet> I need to chat with the infra group to see happens next
15:28:55 <hurgleburgler> but https://launchpad.net/~openstack-ux-core is still owned by Jaromir
15:29:05 <Piet> Ahhhh....
15:29:08 <hurgleburgler> He only changed the project
15:29:09 <hurgleburgler> not the group
15:29:18 <Piet> I hope to have more time to focus on this next week
15:29:46 <hurgleburgler> once the group is changed, we should be able to change the project
15:30:11 <Piet> hurgleburgler Kk
15:30:29 <Piet> I may even have some time today
15:30:42 <robcresswell> Just send another email, last time the response was fast
15:31:05 <Piet> robcresswell to the infra team?
15:31:11 <robcresswell> jaromir
15:31:30 <Piet> Cool
15:31:44 <Piet> Anything else?
15:31:59 <robcresswell> Thats all from me boss :)
15:32:06 <Piet> Heh
15:32:25 <Piet> It will be good to formalize the UX cores within OpenStack
15:32:37 <hurgleburgler> \o/
15:32:41 <Piet> 5
15:32:43 <Piet> 4
15:32:44 <Piet> 3
15:32:46 <Piet> 2
15:32:53 <Piet> 1
15:33:07 <Piet> #topic LBaaS
15:33:41 <Piet> Design on LBaaS is done with the exception of modals for in-row actions
15:34:53 <Piet> Very good meeting this week to come to a consensus.  Thanks to ducttape_ for helping to drive changes
15:35:13 <ducttape_> yep, thanks to all who contributed :D
15:35:32 <Piet> It does represent a slight change in how we think about Horizon, IMHO
15:36:16 <ducttape_> I think some of what we explored with lbaas, could come back around to improve the neutron / network setup experience within horizon too
15:36:29 <Piet> "Small wins" - it feels like workflows will allow users to create objects quickly with minimum choices
15:36:34 <ducttape_> which has been a pain point for some time now, my $.02
15:36:43 <Piet> ducttape_ yep
15:37:48 <Piet> A big part of the change is that users should be dumped into the details panel after creating an object (most of the time..there will be exceptions)
15:38:23 <Piet> The idea is that dropping them into the details panel allows users to make further, more sophisticated changes if they chose
15:38:44 <Piet> Does that kind of make sense to the rest of the group?
15:39:13 <robcresswell> What was the thinking behind that?
15:39:51 <robcresswell> It depends if users spend more time adding/ editing a single resource, or if they spend more time creating multiple objects in a row.
15:39:54 <Piet> Huge workflows tend to scare users because they look long (# of steps) and complicated
15:40:32 <Piet> ducttape_  agreed?
15:41:06 <hurgleburgler> i agree with that statement
15:41:06 <Piet> robcresswell Interesting point because we may want to include a Save and add another button
15:41:07 <ducttape_> not sure I agree that large workflows always scare users
15:41:20 <ducttape_> I'd word it like this....
15:41:47 <ducttape_> "If you have to complete 4 steps to have something useful - then the initial create workflow should have all 4 steps included in there"
15:41:53 <Piet> Thinking I need to punch ducttape_ in the arm
15:42:15 <ducttape_> yes, I mean a workflow with 20 steps is horrid, that much is true
15:42:24 <Piet> ducttape_ sure, makes sense
15:42:24 <robcresswell> Piet: I don't have any numbers either way, but that seems like it would be the important metric. You don't want people being dumped on to the details page if 90% of the time they hit back and create another item.
15:42:50 <ducttape_> robcresswell - do you use neutron?
15:42:58 <Piet> robresswell we should allow them to chose
15:43:05 <hurgleburgler> I still think all complicated workflows should have an advanced user view that can be toggled to
15:43:06 <robcresswell> ducttape_: Yeah
15:43:12 <ducttape_> and how is your experience setting up a usable network in there?   that is the case and point
15:43:32 <robcresswell> Ha, sure
15:43:34 <ducttape_> you have to jump through network / router / subnet etc to get something working
15:43:57 <robcresswell> Right, but thats my point; if they're going to be customising that one resource then that change makes sense
15:44:03 <ducttape_> the same is true for lbaas, albeit the steps are different
15:44:10 <robcresswell> Sure
15:44:11 <robcresswell> Well
15:44:14 <robcresswell> Thats good then :D
15:44:48 <ducttape_> so the analogy is that we are creating a single workflow to setup network / router / subnet
15:45:03 <ducttape_> but you are not required to complete all steps
15:45:15 <ducttape_> but ideally, you will want to
15:45:32 <Piet> robresswell There's also the issue of objects with objects embedded in other objects embedded in other objects.  Suddenly you run the risk of modals on modals
15:47:10 <robcresswell> Makes sense
15:47:39 <Piet> Anything else?  This conversation will inevitably need to continue
15:47:44 <Piet> Ready to close?
15:47:58 <Piet> 5
15:47:59 <Piet> 4
15:48:01 <Piet> 3
15:48:02 <Piet> 2
15:48:04 <Piet> 1
15:48:04 <matt-borland> 2.5
15:48:10 <Piet> Heh
15:48:22 <TravT> guess i'll catch the logs
15:48:26 <Piet> engineer humor
15:48:34 <Piet> #topic
15:48:46 <Piet> #topic Mock-up Review Guidelines
15:49:02 <Piet> Intel is working on mock review guidelines for the team
15:49:21 <hurgleburgler> like, wireframe guidelines?
15:49:25 <Piet> Sort of a checkbox for conducting reviews
15:49:36 <Piet> Yep, aka heurisitic
15:50:10 <Piet> They will need some help because they don't have a lot of context around Horizon
15:50:18 <TravT> wiki?
15:50:39 <Piet> Currently in Google docs
15:51:01 <Piet> Need to find the link
15:51:38 <Piet> I think it could also incorporate some higher level ways we think about GUIs such as the "small victories" pjilosophy
15:51:53 <Piet> "philosophy"
15:52:43 <Piet> But think it's sooper important if we want to be consistent
15:53:09 <TravT> have you thought more about having a simple git repo for submitting / tracking design reviews and their voting?
15:53:12 <hurgleburgler> consistency is the hob...
15:53:16 <hurgleburgler> oh, nm :-D
15:53:25 <robcresswell> TravT: logs :p
15:53:30 <TravT> ok
15:53:40 * TravT had to run kids to school this morning.
15:53:51 <hurgleburgler> TravT quick answer: we are working on that
15:53:53 <Piet> Any other questions about a hueristic?
15:54:46 <Piet> Here's a link to the Nielsen Norman hueristic for UI design http://www.nngroup.com/articles/ten-usability-heuristics/
15:55:09 <Piet> any other questions?
15:55:16 <Piet> 5
15:55:18 <Piet> 4
15:55:24 <Piet> 3
15:55:25 <Piet> 2.5
15:55:26 <Piet> 2
15:55:28 <Piet> 1
15:55:40 <Piet> #topic content
15:56:29 <Piet> Finding a link for reference
15:56:32 <Piet> One sec
15:57:10 <Piet> We are working with Docs to add a GUI content section to http://docs.openstack.org/contributor-guide/index.html
15:57:28 <Piet> That standardizes on terms, labels, etc
15:58:02 <ducttape_> I wonder if cli tools should have a UX aspect to them.   like using consistent arguments / variable names etc
15:58:03 <Piet> Also, stuff like where section descriptions should start with a noun or verb
15:58:32 <Piet> ducttape_ we're actually running a usability on the new Unified CLI
15:58:57 <Piet> Intersted to see how folks respond to the different commands that are used
15:59:16 <Piet> ok - one minute
15:59:32 <Piet> #topic open floor
15:59:39 <Piet> anything else?
15:59:51 <TravT> We have somebody adding CLI to searchlight.
16:00:00 <TravT> wouldn't be bad to get some ux input on it
16:00:06 <Piet> Unified CLI?
16:00:19 <TravT> it is a plugin to openstack unified CLI
16:00:21 <TravT> - yes
16:00:37 <ducttape_> that helps TravT, good starting point
16:00:54 <Piet> yep - probably be worth participating in the usability study planning
16:00:59 * ducttape_ has gotta jet
16:01:01 <TravT> ok
16:01:15 <Piet> Have a good weekend!
16:01:24 <Piet> #endmeeting openstack_ux