20:00:24 <ildikov> #startmeeting openstack-upstream-institute
20:00:25 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Mar 20 20:00:24 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ildikov. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:26 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
20:00:28 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_upstream_institute'
20:00:29 <jungleboyj> o/
20:01:01 <ildikov> bauzas: ping :)
20:01:05 <marst> o/
20:01:12 <bauzas> \o
20:01:15 <ildikov> who's around for a good training meeting? :)
20:01:25 <bauzas> ildikov: thanks :)
20:01:58 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Me of course.
20:02:04 <jungleboyj> How about a great meeting even!?!
20:02:07 <ildikov> jungleboyj: :)
20:02:13 <ildikov> works for me :)
20:02:38 <ildikov> alright, let's wait two more minutes
20:02:51 <ildikov> I might send out a quick reminder mail :)
20:03:50 <jungleboyj> It was short notice.  By no fault of your own.
20:04:16 <ildikov> I know, I wanted to kick this off quickly
20:04:21 <ildikov> so a few items
20:04:24 <mlavalle> o/
20:04:30 <ildikov> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-upstream-institute-meetings
20:04:39 <ildikov> the meeting agenda is posted on this etherpad ^^
20:04:59 <tobberydberg> o/
20:05:03 <ildikov> if you have anything for today just drop it there, you can also add your IRC nick if you would like to get pinged when the meeting starts
20:05:23 <PagliaccisCloud> :D
20:05:45 <ildikov> mlavalle: tobberydberg: PagliaccisCloud: thanks for joining :)
20:05:56 <ildikov> we also have a team wiki page:
20:06:10 <ildikov> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_Upstream_Institute
20:06:50 <ildikov> please check whether you find yourself there and please add yourself there or fill out the missing info
20:07:48 <ildikov> the training website is the following, I started to clean it up a bit already
20:08:07 <ildikov> #link https://docs.openstack.org/upstream-training/
20:08:57 <ildikov> and finally the github repo for the source:
20:09:00 <ildikov> #link https://github.com/openstack/training-guides
20:09:30 <ildikov> these are the administrative items, where you can find all the info we have so far
20:10:16 <ildikov> our next upcoming training will be in Boston, May 6-7 as you can see on the training website as well
20:10:25 <ildikov> as it's getting pretty close we need to start to prepare
20:10:34 <ildikov> the training RSVP form is already out
20:10:57 <ildikov> if any of you know already that you can join us there on site, please add it to the wiki!
20:11:14 <bauzas> ildikov: https://www.openstack.org/summit/boston-2017/ doesn't mention the training, just  the "academy"
20:11:25 <bauzas> ildikov: possibly confusing FWIW
20:11:28 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Which wiki do you want that in?
20:12:00 <ildikov> bauzas: It's there as OpenStack Upstream Institute
20:12:10 <marst> jungleboyj: I guess this one: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_Upstream_Institute
20:12:22 <ildikov> marst: tnx :)
20:12:50 <jungleboyj> Ha, some amazing person already put me there.
20:12:53 <bauzas> ildikov: I meant https://www.openstack.org/assets/boston-summit/images/boston-schedule-final.png
20:13:03 <ildikov> bauzas: the training belongs under the umbrella of the "Academy"
20:13:22 <ildikov> bauzas: oh, sorry, good point
20:13:29 <ildikov> bauzas: I will get that fixed!
20:13:29 <bauzas> ildikov: yup, but the above schedule mentions Sunday as a starting day
20:13:35 <bauzas> ildikov: np, just for you
20:13:48 <ildikov> bauzas: nah it's good, it really is confusing
20:14:16 <ildikov> jungleboyj: I copied the names from the etherpad we had before :)
20:14:43 <bauzas> one last point, the wiki asks whether I'm "available" at Boston
20:14:44 <jungleboyj> Thank you.
20:15:10 <bauzas> does it mean I would be "available" for the institute, or just for the Forum ?
20:15:16 <ildikov> bauzas: I meant that as people are available for the training itself
20:15:24 <bauzas> ack, then no
20:15:42 <ildikov> but I will clarify it
20:15:50 <bauzas> it's a budget concern given my company doesn't support me for 2 extra nights
20:16:03 <bauzas> which is understandable hopefully
20:16:11 <ildikov> bauzas: no problem, I know it's not easy
20:16:44 <ildikov> bauzas: so it's fully understandable
20:17:24 <ildikov> bauzas: and I'm sorry you cannot make it there for the training this time :(
20:17:52 <spotz> Hey guys sorry I'm late multi-meeting
20:18:08 <ildikov> spotz: np, thanks for joining!
20:20:41 <ildikov> so the objectives of the training are to give people the entry points to the community, show the first steps and make them confident about taking the next steps by themselves
20:21:30 <ildikov> we would like to encourage them to find information and build the willingness and ability to ask for help and guidance if they need it by showing them how we are communicating with each other
20:21:56 <ildikov> we would like to have as many exercises as possible to keep the audience focused and involved the whole time
20:22:10 <bauzas> ildikov: are you planning some sort of follow-up with the Forum ?
20:22:11 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  ++
20:22:22 <bauzas> I saw some sessions targeted for newcomers
20:22:24 <ildikov> we have the experience that longer lectures get people destructed pretty quickly
20:22:55 <ildikov> bauzas: I was considering to point people to the project on-boarding rooms and presentations for new comers
20:22:58 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Agreed.  Think we should have gotten into the focused group sessions quicker too.
20:23:12 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  ++
20:23:28 <spotz> The on-boarding rooms I think will be a nice follow-up
20:23:32 <ildikov> bauzas: we were also thinking about what more we could do during the Forum as follow-up, we might be smarter on that after seeing how the first Forum worked out though
20:23:32 <jungleboyj> Should make sure we communicate what the newcomers have been taught for those groups that are not actively involved.
20:24:06 <ildikov> jungleboyj: I'm hoping building a team with liaisons from the projects will make that easier
20:24:16 <jungleboyj> :-)  It seems like some of the discomfort about 'The Forum' is waning though.  Excited to see how it goes.
20:24:20 <ildikov> spotz: agreed
20:24:22 <bauzas> ildikov: so the training is still targeted to be more focused on processes rather than projects, so people would go to on-boarding rooms for the latter ?
20:24:34 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  ++  How are we doing getting representation from all the teams?
20:25:16 <ildikov> bauzas: we are planning deep-dive sessions, where people could talk to people from projects in their area of interest while they are exploring the tools in practice and learning testing or docs build, etc.
20:25:32 <ildikov> bauzas: in smaller groups people can ask more specific questions about projects
20:25:40 <jungleboyj> I am getting more tied in with Manila.  So I could field questions there too.  Could maybe pull in jrichli in to cover Swift.
20:25:46 <ildikov> bauzas: we can then point them to the on-boarding rooms to take further steps
20:25:59 <ildikov> jungleboyj: sounds great, thanks!
20:26:19 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Of course.
20:26:28 <ildikov> jungleboyj: we can create an additional column on the wiki for liaisons with additional projects they are involved in
20:26:43 <jungleboyj> bauzas: That was one of the best parts of the academy in BCN.
20:26:54 <ildikov> jungleboyj: as we don't have that currently, but if you could add that would be great :)
20:27:16 <jungleboyj> ildikov: Ok.  Will do.  (Nice delegation)
20:27:24 <ildikov> jungleboyj: :)
20:27:36 <mlavalle> ildikov: who will run the on-boarding rooms?
20:28:02 <ildikov> mlavalle: I think we provide the space and it's on the project teams to organize it
20:28:17 <bauzas> ildikov: mmm, okay, so that requires people from projects during the training indeed
20:28:21 <spotz> Ok WoO meeting over I'm all yours:)
20:28:32 <ildikov> mlavalle: but I need to double check that with diablo_rojo, she's more involved with the organisation part
20:28:48 <ildikov> spotz: great to have you! :)
20:29:12 <jungleboyj> Where is your partner in crime?
20:29:34 <mlavalle> ildikov: let me take one step back. what is the expectation of people like me, who is liaison for Neutron?
20:29:39 <ildikov> bauzas: yep, it does, we are having a short survey as part of the RSVP form
20:29:57 <tobberydberg> I just chime in here real quick. Mostly listening in here during the meeting - hope that is ok. I would like to see more people from the public cloud sector to join the community and contribute, think we lack good representation there...
20:30:45 <tobberydberg> So, listening in to bring knowledge to the Public Cloud WG and see if we can push this as well!
20:31:07 <spotz> tobberydberg: I think everyone would like to see more people from every sector:)
20:31:31 <tobberydberg> I'm sure they will! =)
20:31:42 <bauzas> ildikov: well, part of my previous experience told me that lots of people say they're interested in nova and/or neutron, but miss other projects
20:32:05 <marst> ildikov: Apologies for the derail, but speaking of training content: would it be ok to add some generic tips? How to handle openstack-dev mailing list (enable filtering or use gmail/fastmail, avoid top-posting), the importance of being on IRC, couple of sentences about IRC bouncers (ZNC vs irccloud) etc?
20:32:13 <ildikov> sorry, IRCCloud died on me... :(
20:32:13 <bauzas> I could be concerned that nova wouldn't have all the resources to help those contributors during the training
20:32:28 <ildikov> so based on the survey we should have a pretty good idea about which projects we need to cover
20:32:48 <bauzas> ildikov: yup, we had a netsplit a second ago
20:32:50 <spotz> marst - I think that would be great. In Barcelona we ran a COmmunication Tools lunch and learn to address some of those things but not repeating in Boston
20:32:53 <ildikov> tobberydberg: we have a short intro about WGs on the training
20:33:15 <ildikov> tobberydberg: we are trying to figure out how to get people more involved in WGs
20:33:30 <tobberydberg> That is very good as well!
20:33:46 <ildikov> tobberydberg: and we can also look into how you could get more involved in the training so we can figure out how to get people into the community from different sectors
20:34:18 <ildikov> marst: so the training itself is for beginners
20:34:42 <tobberydberg> Sounds good ildikov !
20:34:43 <ildikov> marst: and sometimes we have people who are not that familiar with IRC, etc. so we try not to overload people with information
20:35:08 <marst> ildikov: ah, ok. got it. makes sense.
20:35:21 <ildikov> marst: but we can have different level of exercises and we can work with the groups and share more info with those who're more experienced
20:36:03 <ildikov> bauzas: we will have representatives there from several projects, we cannot cover the whole Big Tent, but I hope we will be able to cover bigger areas
20:36:38 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Even an opportunity for the people who have more experience help out a bit and grow in that way.  Build their own confidence which isn't all bad.
20:36:57 <jungleboyj> Couldn't believe how much more confident I felt after the last training.
20:37:14 <ildikov> spotz: marst: maybe on future Forums we can also look into have one or two follow up sessions on advanced tooling and best practices
20:37:46 <ildikov> spotz: marst for those who're interested and are ready to take things to the next level, I'm sure I could learn much on these too :)
20:37:59 <ildikov> jungleboyj: +1
20:38:36 <spotz> ildikov: We can definitely revamp it and do it again if we can find a free lunch slot, though I don't think there are going to be any in Boston except THursday
20:38:38 <ildikov> the main objective here is also to make people feel that they can find the info, figure things out by themselves and if they cannot we are all here to help
20:38:41 <jungleboyj> We just need to become experts in everything.
20:38:54 <spotz> ha jungleboyj we already are:)
20:39:03 <ildikov> spotz: yeah, maybe we should not try to "overload" Boston
20:39:19 <jungleboyj> spotz: :-)  I don't think I am.
20:39:37 <ildikov> spotz: but let's keep these in mind and see what we can do
20:39:43 <spotz> ildikov: If there's interest I'll get it going for Sydney with the git and gerrit
20:40:00 <ildikov> spotz: I think that would be great!
20:40:03 <jungleboyj> +1 We learned from BCN, we will learn more in Boston.  Just keep leveraging up.
20:40:27 <marst> ildikov: thanks! you're probably right, too much information might scare people away
20:41:04 <marst> ildikov: sorry for derail.
20:41:36 <ildikov> marst: it usually does, people come with less experience and overly high expectations and then we overload them with info and they don't know what's the next step
20:41:57 <ildikov> marst: nah, they're all valid points
20:42:10 <ildikov> marst: so thanks for bringing them up
20:42:21 <ildikov> so what we need to do currently is work more on the training format and agenda
20:42:47 <spotz> ildikov: Is there anyway to break out into 2 groups maybe? A beginning track and a more advanced track?
20:43:11 <jungleboyj> spotz: One step at a time man.
20:43:15 <ildikov> the idea is to keep the training modular and start with common items like community info like projects and governance, communication and tools and then go into the deep dive parts
20:43:15 <jungleboyj> ;-)
20:43:32 <ildikov> spotz: we plan to group them by the area of interest this time
20:43:39 <spotz> cool
20:43:57 <jungleboyj> ildikov: How long are we planning to make that first part this time?  Not a full day, right?
20:43:59 <ildikov> spotz: I personally hope that we will have mixed groups on the level of experience and people can help each other
20:44:16 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  ++
20:44:20 <ildikov> spotz: I think it's a great way to get people confident if they can help others within the group
20:44:39 <ildikov> spotz: also could be a good way of building a good culture from day 0
20:44:48 <PagliaccisCloud> ^
20:44:50 <spotz> ildikov: definitely and hopefully one person gets help on one thing and gives help on another:)
20:45:02 <ildikov> spotz: I think for now that's the best we can do
20:45:14 <ildikov> spotz: +1, exactly :)
20:45:34 <tobberydberg> +1 for Beginners track vs More advanced track - even if not possible for Boston, good for Sydney
20:45:59 <bauzas> we tried that in the past
20:46:20 <ildikov> tobberydberg: it can be tricky to decide who belongs there and it also needs more people to help out on site, but can look into options
20:46:29 <bauzas> with 3 different groups
20:46:38 <bauzas> but yeah, what ildikov said
20:47:03 <ildikov> bauzas: thanks for confirming
20:47:03 <bauzas> it's rather better to ask for prereqs
20:47:20 <tobberydberg> Agree on that...to separate agendas of course and set "requirements" - dont know what they should be yet though
20:47:25 <bauzas> people should at least know how git is working...
20:47:27 <spotz> It would need to be a natural divide once there, everyone always thinks they know nothing or everything
20:47:38 <bauzas> which wasn't the case when I teached one of those groups :)
20:47:44 <spotz> bauzas: if not we have it covered Wednesday during lunch:)
20:47:52 <ildikov> :)
20:48:12 <ildikov> so in my thinking we should encourage people to look things up during the training
20:48:20 <bauzas> I was full of sandwitch so I missed the lunch f2f :p
20:49:07 <jungleboyj> ildikov:  Column added to the Wiki.  Let me know if you want something different.
20:49:08 <ildikov> that's what we all do or at least me if I don't know something and getting to know the tools is one of these things
20:49:52 <ildikov> we only need to make people want to put some effort into contributing and if they are motivated it doesn't matter how much they know git at the time of the training
20:49:59 <ildikov> jungleboyj: tnx, will check
20:50:08 <ildikov> so we have 10 minutes left
20:50:39 <ildikov> I started an etherpad with listing the current training exercises that needs to be revisited and evolved further
20:50:43 <ildikov> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/upstream-training-exercises
20:51:05 <ildikov> we also have duplications in the training content beyond the 'too much info' problem
20:51:36 <ildikov> it would be great if you could take a look at the exercises and the current material to see where we could do a better job
20:51:59 <ildikov> also those of you who are able to come to the training in Boston please make yourself familiar with the material and the exercises
20:52:50 <ildikov> you can reach out to me or diablo_rojo if you have any questions on the new channel or on the mailing list, etc.
20:53:22 <jungleboyj> Looks like good info.
20:53:37 <ildikov> during the week I will look deeper into what tasks we could identify for ourselves to work on
20:53:47 <ildikov> and iteratively get done as much as we can until the training
20:54:46 <bauzas> I'll try to review the etherpad even if I can't attend the training itself
20:55:04 <ildikov> teaching and coaching is challenging just by themselves, but I think if we can show that this is a friendly community with lots of interesting things to work on we won!
20:55:05 <bauzas> do you still have the training materials somewhere in a git repo ?
20:55:22 <ildikov> bauzas: that would be great, thanks!
20:55:40 <ildikov> bauzas: https://github.com/openstack/training-guides
20:55:57 <ildikov> under upstream-training
20:56:01 <bauzas> yeah so that's the ones I was thinking about
20:56:09 <ildikov> both the slides and the web site source files are there
20:56:18 <jungleboyj> It was very important to be open and friendly to the participants.  I had a number of people approach me in BCN just because they recognized me and appreciated having someone they knew there from the training.
20:56:26 <ildikov> I would guess it hasn't really changed
20:56:43 <ildikov> jungleboyj: +1
20:56:48 <ildikov> we have four minutes left
20:56:52 <spotz> +1 jungleboyj
20:56:58 <ildikov> does anyone have any questions?
20:57:51 <ildikov> either on the objectives or what to do until the next meeting or anything training/on-boarding related? :)
20:58:34 <ildikov> I take that as a no :)
20:58:42 <ildikov> I think we had a great meeting today
20:58:46 <jungleboyj> No, good first meeting.  Thanks ildikov !
20:58:55 <ildikov> thank you all for the questions and ideas, they were all great!
20:59:12 <jungleboyj> :-)
20:59:34 <ildikov> please take a look at the materials and add your ideas to the exercises etherpad
20:59:41 <ildikov> or upload a patch for review :)
21:00:01 <marst> ildikov: thank you!
21:00:11 <ildikov> see you all next week! :)
21:00:16 <ildikov> #endmeeting