13:01:44 <Daisy> #startmeeting OpenStack I18n Meeting
13:01:45 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Jun 18 13:01:44 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Daisy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:01:46 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
13:01:48 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_meeting'
13:01:52 <Fdot> Hello Daisy :)
13:01:58 <Daisy> Hello, Fdot
13:01:58 <Fdot> Hello everybody
13:02:11 <Daisy> It looks like there are some new IDs
13:02:12 <jftalta> Hi all
13:02:24 <ianychoi> Hello all :)
13:02:48 <Daisy> Where do you from, Adri2000 , janonymous ?
13:03:06 <katomo> ianychoi: Hello, I'm KATO Tomoyuki from Japan.
13:03:23 <jftalta> thanks for the glossary Daisy :)
13:03:33 <ianychoi> katomo, I'm Ian from Korea. Nice to meet you :)
13:03:33 <Daisy> You are welcome, jftalta
13:03:59 <ianychoi> Daisy, I have just seen the glossary google sheet. Can I or ujuc add Korean part?
13:04:14 <Adri2000> Daisy: hi, I'm French (know jftalta and Fdot), I haven't been active with translations recently, but I added an item to the agenda
13:04:27 <Daisy> Let's talk about that later, ianychoi
13:04:38 <Daisy> Thank you, Adri2000
13:04:43 <ianychoi> Okay :)
13:04:51 <Daisy> I hope the meeting time is fine with you, Adri2000
13:05:05 <Daisy> #topic Review translation terminologies
13:05:38 <Daisy> I have distributed the link to terminologies before the meeting.
13:05:44 <Daisy> There are some feedbacks.
13:06:00 <Daisy> Let's discuss about several issues together.
13:06:06 <jftalta> Now we have to increase its size  by adding new terms
13:06:32 <Daisy> jftalta: Yes. It should be maintained continusly
13:06:39 <Daisy> 1. singular or plural
13:07:19 <Daisy> Look at row 74 and 75
13:07:35 <Daisy> There are quota and quotas
13:07:44 <Daisy> Should we keep only singular ?
13:07:55 <katomo> yes, just a moment.
13:08:06 <Fdot> Daisy: yes
13:08:19 <Daisy> OK. Then delete "quotas"
13:08:33 <katomo> ok
13:08:37 <ianychoi> ok
13:08:39 <jftalta> I agree with fdot
13:08:48 <Daisy> 2. I suggest every term starts with a capital letter.
13:08:51 <Daisy> Agree ?
13:09:01 <Fdot> \o_ +1
13:09:22 <jftalta> every term, everywhere ?
13:09:33 <Daisy> good question, jftalta
13:09:53 <Fdot> It is only a terminology guide not sure if capital letter is important or not
13:10:00 <Daisy> I don't know, jftalta . Like "availability zone"
13:10:35 <amotoki_> i don't think we need to start a capital letter too.
13:10:37 <katomo> -1 I don't think need capital.
13:10:41 <jftalta> Agree with fdot.
13:10:53 <ianychoi> How about all letters non-capital except abbreviations (e.g., IP, CIDR)?
13:11:28 <Fdot> let's use not capital letter except for abbreviations
13:11:30 <amotoki_> If a term is a proper noun, it sounds reasonable to start with a capital letter.
13:11:35 <Fdot> +1 for ianychoi
13:11:40 <katomo> +1 ianychoi
13:11:45 <amotoki_> abbrev term should be upper.
13:11:46 <Daisy> I agree with ianychoi too.
13:11:53 <amotoki_> ianychoi: +1
13:11:59 <katomo> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions
13:12:08 <Daisy> Nice. Then all letters non-capital except abbreviations
13:12:08 <jftalta> +1 ianychoi
13:12:18 <Daisy> 3. version control
13:12:46 <katomo> we remember to need to follow the Documentaion conventions.
13:13:30 <Daisy> katomo: which part of the conventions are important to us, katomo ?
13:14:00 <katomo> Daisy: Service and project names
13:14:01 <amotoki_> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/Conventions#Terms_and_usage is a useful guideline for "term"
13:14:30 <katomo> yeah
13:16:08 <Daisy> Good suggestions, katomo and amotoki
13:16:08 <Daisy> We should follow these in our term list
13:16:08 <Daisy> Then version control
13:16:08 <Daisy> Do we need version control of terminology ?
13:16:08 <Daisy> It may be a pot and a serials of po files in a git repository.
13:16:08 <Daisy> And we upload to Transifex too, for translation.
13:16:36 <Daisy> We use auto synchronization job , just like the other sync jobs between pot in doc repository and transifex
13:17:31 <Daisy> Hello ? Am I disconnected ?
13:17:39 <doug-fish> you aren't Daisy
13:17:57 <doug-fish> it's just a quiet meeting I think
13:18:09 <Daisy> oh. What happen ?
13:18:26 <Fdot> For versionning I don't know
13:18:28 <ianychoi> My Internet is slow... k
13:18:39 <Fdot> it depends of the tools we are going to use
13:18:59 <Fdot> if we use Transifex / Zanata we don't really need versionning
13:19:10 <Daisy> Fdot: I like the version idea. We could have a openstack-i18n repo, and we maintain the terminologies pot/po files there.
13:19:36 <Fdot> Daisy: why ? :)
13:20:19 <Daisy> Fdot: just follow the style of other projects. Using git repo to maintain pot, using Jenkins job to syncronize, using Transifex/Zanata to translate.
13:20:23 <ianychoi> I agree with version control concept, but just google doc revision history and wiki history would be sufficient, in my opinion.
13:20:25 <amotoki_> but it is also important to make it easy to update by a lang team.
13:20:43 <ianychoi> Git is also good.
13:20:49 <Fdot> Daisy: works for me :)
13:20:50 <amotoki_> I think the usual openstack review system does not work for us.
13:21:03 <jftalta> I Like the idea of a git repo to
13:21:05 <Daisy> I think there is only 1 terminology list, amotoki.
13:21:33 <Daisy> Do you want lang team to update terminology easily ?
13:21:35 <amotoki_> Daisy: the terminology list in source lang?
13:21:50 <amotoki_> i.e. English version
13:22:10 <Fdot> Daisy amotoki_ each lang team need to easily update the list
13:22:19 <Daisy> Yes, in English, and only 1. The whole i18n team maintain only 1 term list. If a lang team update it, all lang teams use the updated version.
13:22:21 <amotoki_> i haven't followed fully the situation.
13:22:51 <Daisy> I think we should use unique terminologies list in our team.
13:23:03 <amotoki_> it sounds reasonable to use vcs to maintain the master term list in English.
13:23:04 <Fdot> Agree with Daisy :)
13:23:16 <Daisy> Of course, the translations should be updated easily.
13:23:45 <Daisy> I mean, only 1 English version, but multiple translated version. Do I make sense ?
13:23:55 <amotoki_> yes
13:24:00 <ianychoi> yes
13:24:03 <Daisy> Thank you, amotoki
13:25:02 <Daisy> Then as to repo, let's try repo. Keep in a repo and in Transifex/Zanata at the same time. Agree ?
13:25:21 <katomo> +1
13:25:23 <Fdot> Daisy: let's try like this
13:25:27 <Fdot> +1
13:25:29 <Daisy> Thanks, Fdot
13:25:32 <jftalta> +1
13:25:42 <Daisy> Thank you, all. Next one.
13:25:47 <ianychoi> +1
13:25:54 <Daisy> 4. string freeze
13:25:57 <amotoki_> one question
13:26:13 <Daisy> amotoki: please what's the question ?
13:26:31 <amotoki_> my question is about the usage of translated term list.
13:26:40 <amotoki_> is it just a reference for trans memory?
13:27:06 <amotoki_> or is it used in the translated document? (i.e. visible to endusers)?
13:27:25 <Fdot> amotoki_: it will be invisible to the endusers
13:27:33 <Daisy> terminologies are used by our translators.
13:27:43 <Fdot> amotoki_: it is a tool for the lang team
13:27:45 <Daisy> It is known as "Glossary" in Transifex
13:27:53 <amotoki_> thanks for clarification! sounds reasonable.
13:28:07 <Daisy> 4. string freeze
13:28:28 <Daisy> Do we need string freeze for the terminologies ?
13:28:59 <Fdot> Daisy: i don't think so
13:29:07 <Fdot> it has to live its own life :)
13:29:08 <Daisy> string freeze has two means: one is source strings are freeze, the second is translated strings are freeze.
13:29:10 <katomo> I don't need
13:29:26 <amotoki_> i don't think so.
13:29:33 <Daisy> I agree with Fdot and katomo
13:29:38 <jftalta> What do you mean Daisy ?
13:29:57 <amotoki_> it is just a reference to share our knowledge among translators.
13:30:07 <ujuc> hi, i late..;
13:30:13 <Fdot> hello ujuc :)
13:30:31 <amotoki_> ujuc: i hope the new meeting is comfortable to you :-)
13:30:40 <amotoki_> meeting time
13:30:42 <ujuc> :)
13:30:57 <ianychoi> :) I told ujuc to come here :)
13:31:13 <Daisy> I mean, "string freeze" has two meanings in my mind. One is "the English source strings" or "the term list" is not changed. The other is "the translated strings, e.g. French translated terms" is not changed.
13:31:29 <katomo> ujuc: hello
13:31:44 <ujuc> :)
13:31:51 <jftalta> Not sure that freezing the glossary is a good idea...
13:31:54 <Daisy> I don't think terminology string freeze is useful in my translation experience.
13:32:33 <Fdot> so we are all agree : no string freeze :)
13:32:43 <Daisy> jftalta: I don't know. I think we could try "no string freeze" for a while. If the terms change a lot and it affect our translation work, we discuss about string freeze.
13:32:58 <Fdot> +1 Daisy \o_
13:33:08 <ianychoi> okay
13:33:21 <amotoki_> +1 we can improve in the agile style.
13:33:29 <Daisy> OK. Next one
13:33:31 <jftalta> Ok
13:33:36 <katomo> +1
13:34:14 <Daisy> 5. maintain of terminology
13:34:14 <Daisy> This one is hard.
13:34:28 <Daisy> Let's separate it into two small items.
13:34:41 <Daisy> 5.1 maintain of the list
13:34:52 <Daisy> means adding or removing terms from the list
13:35:34 * fifieldt_ wanders in
13:35:38 <Daisy> ianychoi: you can talk about your question now. You want to add terms used by Korean team ?
13:35:43 <amotoki_> what is the second one? am not sure what the first one covers.
13:35:55 <ianychoi> Yes :)
13:37:16 <Daisy> 5.1 maintain of the terminology list. It means adding new terms or removing existing one. 5.2 maintain of the translations. I think 5.2 is easy because each translation may have their experiences in maintain the term translation.
13:37:43 <ianychoi> What I understand from 5.1 ->who can add/remove terms list?
13:37:47 <amotoki_> Daisy: thanks
13:37:48 <ianychoi> Am I understanding right?
13:37:58 <Fdot> Daisy: agree with 5.2
13:38:13 <Daisy> Yes, ianychoi. Or how can add/remove terms from the list .
13:38:21 <Fdot> For 5.1 we can centralize the update
13:38:36 <Fdot> gerrit is overkill for this I think
13:38:37 <amotoki_> how does the docs team maintain the glossary?
13:38:52 <amotoki_> we can learn their workflow.
13:39:12 <Daisy> katomo: do you know how doc team maintain the glossary ?
13:39:28 <katomo> not certain.
13:39:35 <Daisy> ianychoi: can you share us the link to Korean terms ?
13:39:42 <katomo> I don't know.
13:40:03 <Fdot> Small proposal : Someone centralize all the request for adding or removing terms in the list. And then we discuss about the request during the next meetings
13:40:10 <fifieldt> docs team maintains glossary using git
13:40:15 <fifieldt> in one repository
13:40:22 <fifieldt> then it is copied by a script to other repositories
13:40:29 <ianychoi> Daisy, I remember that ujuc created a wiki site. I will update to that page and tell you.
13:40:33 <katomo> I usually maintain glossary by hand.
13:40:46 <ianychoi> or i18n mailing list.
13:40:48 <Daisy> fifieldt: I like the idea to maintain by git.
13:40:51 <fifieldt> ( https://github.com/openstack/openstack-manuals/tree/master/doc/glossary )
13:40:53 <Daisy> I have an idea.
13:41:14 <katomo> yes! fifieldt
13:41:20 <jftalta> ?
13:41:43 <Daisy> We use git to store our term (we had the agreement just now). If somebody wants to add new terms or remove terms, submit a patch.
13:41:54 <Daisy> I think it's a wonderful idea. :))
13:42:06 <ujuc> +1
13:42:07 <ujuc> :)
13:42:24 <ianychoi> +1
13:42:25 <amotoki_> now I return to the initial quesiton. why do we need to maintain a separate version of glossary?
13:42:28 <Fdot> +1
13:42:34 <katomo> +1
13:42:46 <jftalta> And
13:42:53 <jftalta> Sorry
13:43:04 <amotoki_> sorry for returning the initial quesiton in the summit. i wan't there.
13:43:17 <jftalta> and who will review the patch ?
13:43:39 <katomo> jftalta: docs team
13:43:40 <amotoki_> it seems we are trying to do a duplicated work.
13:43:50 <katomo> For example, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190208/
13:44:02 <Daisy> amotoki: as to your question, we discussed this one in the summit. Doc has a long list of glossary, more than 600. Translators only want to maintain a small list. Doc glossaries are specific words in Openstack area. Translators may want small and frequently used terms. They are different kind.
13:44:36 <Daisy> katomo: No, our I18n teams
13:44:40 <amotoki_> can't we just translate or use a part of the list which they are interested in?
13:45:00 <Daisy> Sorry. Our I18n team maintain our own repo, and we review our own patches.
13:45:04 <katomo> sorry... i missed question.
13:45:32 <katomo> agree with Daisy
13:45:35 <Daisy> jftalta asked "who will review the patch ?" My answer: it's our repo, the reviewers should be I18n team members.
13:45:43 <fifieldt> example - "Allocate IP 	IPの確保 (※Associate ととの調整必要あり)"
13:45:49 <fifieldt> probably won't be found in docs glossary
13:46:05 <fifieldt> authorize 	許可(ただし文脈による)
13:46:07 <fifieldt> might be another one
13:46:15 <amotoki_> fifieldt: I think it is a discussion inside each lang team.
13:46:21 <katomo> Daisy, jftalta: ok +1
13:46:39 <fifieldt> thanks amotoki_, I'm just talking from docs team perspective
13:46:56 <fifieldt> if someone proposed "authorise" to the glossary in https://github.com/openstack/openstack-manuals/tree/master/doc/glossary
13:47:00 <fifieldt> it will likely be rejected
13:47:03 <amotoki_> fifieldt: got your point.
13:47:05 <fifieldt> thanks
13:47:09 <fifieldt> sorry, please go on
13:47:35 <amotoki_> translation of the glossary in documentations are visible to endusers. that is a big difference.
13:47:41 <Daisy> amotoki: the purpose to use teams in translation is to keep the consistency and quality.
13:48:27 <amotoki_> Daisy: we are discussing now how to maintain the master list of the glossary.
13:48:48 <Daisy> ok.
13:49:01 <jftalta> Only 10' to go
13:49:13 <amotoki_> I understand the value that we have separate translation place from the translator perspecitve,
13:49:33 <Daisy> Can we move to "5.2 maintain of the translations" now ?
13:49:58 <amotoki_> but it does not convince me why we need to maintain the separate master repo. it is just my feeling, so you can go to the road.
13:50:06 <amotoki_> please go ahead.
13:50:12 <Fdot> Daisy: I am not sur that once the list is going to be translated it is going to move too much ;)
13:50:39 <Daisy> Terms are stored in git repo, and translated by the web UI of Zanata, or Transifex.
13:51:03 <Fdot> Maintain the translation and the list is going to be simple
13:51:36 <fifieldt> amotoki_: there are some scripts from docs glossary that might be helpful/extendible to ensure alignment between whatever glossaries exist, but of course it depends on the model :)
13:52:32 <amotoki_> what i concern is just "hey let's add it to the i18n term list. It was recently added to the docs glossary".
13:52:34 <amotoki_> that's all.
13:54:12 <fifieldt> right
13:54:16 <Fdot> amotoki_: it is more going to be "in lang team there is a lot of question about how to translate this term can we add it to the list ?"
13:54:20 <fifieldt> the term list should be based on need
13:54:34 <Fdot> fifieldt: +1 \o_
13:54:45 <adiantum> fifieldt: +1
13:54:51 <Fdot> fifieldt: that was my point :)
13:54:59 <amotoki_> fifieldt: agree
13:55:05 <Adri2000> there are quite a few items left in the agenda for today... https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/I18nTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting - can some discussion move to the mailing-list?
13:55:23 <jftalta> Agree with fifieldt
13:55:47 <fifieldt> lol, did not mean to steal other people's point!
13:56:06 <Fdot> fifieldt :)
13:57:36 <Adri2000> Daisy timed out
13:57:49 <Adri2000> I don't know what's next :)
13:58:01 <jftalta> Meeting is over ?
13:59:15 <ianychoi> Hello :)
13:59:20 <jftalta> See you i18n team
13:59:25 <Adri2000> I'm afraid time is out :(
13:59:34 <Daisy> :) I just disconnected.
13:59:36 <Daisy> Sorry
13:59:37 <Adri2000> what are we doing with the rest of the agenda?
13:59:57 <katomo> :)
14:00:09 <Daisy> I will read the meeting minutes to catch up my lost part.
14:00:23 <fifieldt> unfortunately, the ops-tags team has this room booked from now
14:00:31 <Daisy> Time is up.
14:00:31 <Daisy> We have to close the meeting now.
14:00:38 <maishsk_afk> fifieldt: you are prompt… :)
14:00:45 <Daisy> #endmeeting