23:10:11 #startmeeting OpenStack Community 23:10:12 Meeting started Wed Jun 26 23:10:11 2013 UTC. The chair is fifieldt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 23:10:13 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 23:10:15 The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_community' 23:10:16 * sarob_ waving yes 23:10:28 no reed? 23:10:33 he's well asleep 23:10:37 currently in italy 23:10:45 tough break 23:10:50 indeed :) 23:10:57 yeah night time for him 23:11:07 Just to quickly run through the action items from the past meeting 23:11:13 * fifieldt evgeny_ to work on bug 1172076 (reed, 23:24:56) 23:11:19 Ongoing - still shows: 23:11:20 $ openssl s_client -showcerts -connect ask.openstack.org:443 23:11:20 Verify return code: 21 (unable to verify the first certificate) 23:11:28 * fifieldt reed to send a request to Chinese User Groups to help translate askbot GUI (reed, 23:35:01) <-- done 23:11:45 * fifieldt fifieldt to summarise conversation with Everett about helping developers consuming OpenStack (reed, 00:18:59) <-- ongoing, has branched out into many discussions 23:12:10 any queries about those annegentle, sarob_? 23:12:41 nope 23:12:47 cool 23:12:55 doh lost sarob looks like 23:13:00 dammnn 23:13:10 And another californian! 23:13:18 ah california :) 23:13:18 hmm 23:13:31 any queries about those action items sarob? 23:13:42 tx at heart 23:14:05 no questions 23:14:16 #topic evaluate pending issues from the bug tracker 23:14:20 #info https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-community 23:14:49 normally at this point we'd ask evgeny, our tame askbot developer, to give an update on the bugs assigned to that team 23:15:17 but it doesn't look like any have been completed since last tgime 23:15:35 also: annegentle, sarob - feel free to spam bugs to that tracker regarding the community tools 23:15:47 sans openstack.org website 23:15:47 fifieldt: yeah looking/browsing now 23:16:06 yeah, like https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-community/+bug/1099887 23:16:16 fifieldt: I don't know if you've seen it, but https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org has openstack.org website issues 23:16:30 yup, I'm an active contributor there now I have write access to the CMS :) 23:16:50 indeed, sarob 23:16:59 so the plan is to create a 'user portal' 23:17:04 its not really a bug, rather blueprint 23:17:06 right 23:17:12 which will have many features 23:17:31 righto 23:17:31 and reed has been scoping the funding and methods to do that out with mark recently 23:17:41 but it's slow going 23:17:50 I lost my write access to silverstripe, reed was looking into it 23:17:53 bugs tracking as features, or just side effect 23:18:16 yeah, since this is just a small team at the moment it doesn't use blueprints 23:18:18 maybe it should? 23:18:33 would you like more visibility of what's going on future roadmap wise? 23:18:38 blueprints work for that well, yes... 23:19:04 reed created one for the portal 23:19:09 #info https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-community/+spec/community-portal 23:19:20 right 23:19:31 ok, let me do this: 23:19:43 i created two new ones based on reed conversation last week 23:19:53 linking into the portal 23:19:53 #action fifieldt to talk to reed about use of blueprints, and making 'large' community plans roadmap more visible 23:19:58 cool 23:20:03 okay 23:20:21 anything else on the launchpad time, while we're at it? 23:20:44 ok then 23:20:49 #topic how to help developers consuming API 23:21:12 so I had a chat with everett, dianne via email, reed, and annegentle about this 23:21:18 and also other people in the foundation 23:21:41 analysed the current poor (say, nonexistent) treatment of SDKs on openstack.org 23:21:56 and started writing up some stuff to replace the current "getting started" page 23:22:40 the foundation team is meeting at OSCON for a workshop, and one idea we had was to look at the getting started page and smash out some content so that it's accessible for all types of people in the community 23:23:21 of course, annegentle, we'll also need to look at http://docs.openstack.org/ and make sure it's pristine as it can be for developers 23:23:31 * annegentle nods 23:23:33 I'm thinking we need pretty icons, thoughts? :) 23:23:51 * annegentle just found bootstrap's icons yesterday 23:23:57 :D 23:24:16 would like be like clearer steps for learning openstack 23:24:26 indeed 23:24:35 and/or provide more options 23:24:49 could you redesign api.openstack.org? 23:25:21 it's a nice domain name :) I think we have two types of developer 23:25:40 one type uses the API directly, - our own coders, people writing SDKs, other hardcore people 23:25:46 the other type relies on libraries and SDKs 23:25:52 and that's actually a greater number of people 23:26:06 so we need to make sure we deal with both very well 23:26:27 me thinks as instruction gets 23:26:27 agreed on all 23:26:50 deeper then expose more details 23:26:58 beyond just using api 23:27:16 n00bs get confused 23:27:27 so, providing actual examples, sarob? 23:27:32 with a tangible use case to follow 23:27:35 def 23:27:55 sounds good to me 23:28:01 we need to make tiers of material 23:28:11 I think Diane's user guides are going that direction with your guidance fifieldt 23:28:21 Dashboard > CLI > API > SDK 23:28:28 right 23:28:33 indeed, I need to get back to her on those - sobusybusy 23:28:52 so how can the efforts around training 23:29:05 be spun into 23:29:25 cause nobody wants stale, dub material 23:29:30 hehe, indeed 23:29:32 dup that is 23:29:46 dubstep is awesome tho 23:30:56 so i created this bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/training-manuals 23:31:18 its meant to create those tiers 23:31:26 tie into the docs 23:31:38 and the getting started stuff 23:31:52 I agree with creating training content, but my understanding is that this is a contentious board-level issue right now :| 23:31:54 sfbay user group is working on it 23:31:57 * annegentle reads 23:32:13 well, we are not talking about certs 23:32:26 just creating material 23:32:46 sarob: what's the tie in to refstack exactly? 23:32:47 foundation board will debate certs, def, etc 23:33:20 the idea being that to provide examples and scenarios 23:33:25 Of course it's always fine to create, but I think it's naive to assume people wouldn't get up in arms, so I'm just going to take a light touch :) 23:33:38 we need an archetype 23:34:09 thats me light touch 23:34:29 cool 23:34:35 so what's our action item here? 23:34:39 share more widely 23:34:41 ask for people? 23:34:53 read & feedback? 23:34:56 well started with api 23:35:55 sarob: reading more to try to figure out refstack tie-in 23:36:04 roger that 23:37:13 refstack would be reference stack, debate about whats in, what to call it, etc 23:37:33 sarob: my understanding of refstack is a test suite 23:37:35 more or less 23:38:00 in this case: a way to have a defined openstack install, without using vendor Product X? 23:38:02 * sarob putting my user commuity hat on 23:38:08 sarob: but I do like the idea of real trainees getting real cloud experiences, but they're going to want it for free? 23:38:25 thats def part of it 23:38:30 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/RefStackBlueprint 23:38:32 crowdsourced training 23:38:33 that was the link 23:38:45 right 23:38:57 * fifieldt supports the free part and thinks usergroups around the world can deliver training material should it be available 23:39:28 testing based on refstack, the ins and outs 23:39:37 sarob: so the training is for cloud users 23:39:39 continue to be debated 23:39:53 sarob: the Dash > CLI > API > SDK range of users 23:40:03 very similar 23:40:05 I mean that as a question, is that the range of abilities? 23:40:15 start easy 23:40:26 going to an architect/devops 23:40:30 sarob: sure if that's what you're seeing as demand 23:40:50 demand is all over the place 23:41:04 but they need to start somewhere 23:41:20 sarob: sure 23:41:30 sarob: just have to prioritize somewhat :) 23:41:47 if it is selfpaced then np 23:41:48 sarob: to me, refstack is more about API > SDK 23:42:21 true, i was just stating that the training is intended to teach the core of openstack 23:42:28 not get into the weeds 23:43:15 refstack will evenually explain / def the core of openstack 23:43:29 through the tests 23:43:30 sarob: ok got it 23:43:38 sarob: that helped, thanks 23:43:50 ;) 23:44:00 indeed 23:44:03 so api teach 23:44:40 can we mold this topic into the broader training materials plus docs? 23:44:51 as part of community 23:45:00 #topic training material, documentation 23:45:01 or massive super overload 23:45:12 :) 23:45:18 ;) 23:45:40 you won't get argument from annegentle or I regarding words on paper, I think :) 23:45:44 right! 23:45:59 words are our friends 23:46:23 One idea I see coming out of these etherpads is an appendix on certain manuals that offers training materials - objectives, labs? 23:46:40 thats the idea 23:47:05 was thinking that could keep the docs as 23:47:14 sarob: what's unfortunate is that our restructure may gut the compute admin manual and the blueprint fifieldt wrote up for restructuring the doc gets rid of the admin manuals... we're still doing content analysis on it 23:47:38 indeed 23:47:39 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-restructure-documentation 23:47:39 yeah 23:48:09 well, actually, the Compute Admin manual gets rolled into an OpenStack Admin manual -- so it would still work 23:48:29 fifieldt: Diane and Nick Chase and I just talked about it this week and Nick's going to write an outline 23:48:31 yeah, i think its not the end of the world 23:48:38 sarob: so it still works for training needs 23:48:39 sweet 23:48:58 but yeah, sarob, if there's some content you like in there 23:48:59 sarob: have you seen the Couch to OpenStack webinar series? Can't help but think there's something to that organizational approach 23:49:06 earmark it soon and communicate it 23:49:12 because the scope is being reduced :) 23:49:21 we could just thinking about how to break down the training structure to follow the docs structure 23:49:22 #link http://openstack.prov12n.com/vbrownbag-podcast-couch-to-openstack/ 23:49:35 fifieldt: for which? 23:49:46 I'd say for the compute admin manual especially 23:49:47 hmm, nope. i chk it out 23:49:57 fifieldt: the way I explained it to Nick this week is we're tacking towards a point like a sailboat :) 23:49:57 not couch to 5k 23:50:16 fifieldt: correcting direction as we discover 23:50:17 sure, annegentle :) 23:50:22 indeed 23:50:36 but I think practically, this means some of the content from compute admin will disappear 23:50:38 hmm, interesting idea 23:50:56 hence the note to earmark things that might be working in case we miss them off the side of the boat in a tack :) 23:51:10 so getting back to content 23:51:10 fifieldt: yeah I think the scoping is for "what goes with a release as official docs" 23:51:42 sarob: and I don't think that training materials can be scoped in "released" docs (which is also a starting discussion with the programs discussion) 23:51:47 ah too many tie ins today sorry 23:52:07 sure i get that 23:52:18 perhaps, unless someone else writes them, and it brings billions of contributors annegentle ? :) 23:52:26 * sarob looking forward 23:52:42 * sarob on the bow 23:52:47 hehehe 23:52:50 metaphor win! 23:53:03 sarob: land ho! 23:53:18 * sarob falls overboard and gets prowed 23:53:20 fifieldt: just drawing imaginary lines 23:53:33 esp. since there's a mention of refstack in the room :) 23:53:40 aye! 23:53:49 or is that aye aye 23:53:50 :) 23:53:56 or arrrr matey 23:53:57 what homework 23:54:18 sfbay hackathon is tomorrow night 23:54:19 sarob: you have done a good job getting up to speed on doc processes/tools 23:54:26 :) 23:54:43 +1 23:54:45 sarob: so that's excellent. I would like to know if people generally have an idea of how training material is usually written with objectives and such 23:54:46 i gots to teach me peoples 23:54:48 is that what they want? 23:55:23 now that we getting more of a crowd 23:55:29 and yurs input 23:55:50 im going to get some of my university friends 23:55:52 I guess I'd like more definition from your group too -- what's the audience, be specific. Do you need slide decks? questions? if there's stuff not covered in the manuals, will they add it as manuals or as a training add on 23:56:00 and other user groups to chime in 23:56:13 roger that 23:56:19 sarob: yes, I like that. Trainers are a really unique bunch. 23:56:34 sarob: and how much lab equip would be assumed/acquired? 23:56:41 sarob: audience, tasks, equipment. 23:56:46 universities are already creating their own materials 23:56:53 details 23:56:55 right 23:57:25 i going tap in to that gusher 23:57:37 fifieldt: do you have a sense of the audience yourself? students? new to cloud? IT warriors? 23:58:24 indeed 23:58:39 up until recently I was also creating an OpenStack course for a university 23:58:43 i will start surveys through meetup for the user groups 23:58:49 and I have many thoughts on training 23:58:55 * fifieldt is a trainer 23:59:13 those involved peoples are the ones to tap first, 23:59:20 "target population" 23:59:26 * sarob you think so? 23:59:47 * sarob too 23:59:55 then "task analysis" and "course objectives" 00:00:01 anyway... those are the details 00:00:05 to fill in 00:00:14 sean like 00:00:54 you will get a few more doc contributors 00:01:14 cool 00:01:18 cause that is the first thing im teaching the user group working on the training 00:01:25 :) 00:01:27 yeah you guys are doing great 00:01:35 really, really good stuff here! 00:02:00 +2 00:02:15 so can you noodle on how to keep us from dupin stuff 00:02:28 as the docs get mashed 00:03:12 sarob: yeah been doin that, if you'll forgive another cheesey metaphor, we've got the patient on the operating table with the guts hanging out while we reorg 00:03:34 * sarob arrgghhh 00:03:44 right 00:04:09 and we're fitting a permanent pacemaker, and replacing the lungs with machines 00:04:24 im meaning from the creating training materials based on the docs 00:04:57 the docs won't be stable for a few months, is my guess 00:05:00 if the operations training needs materials from multi locations 00:05:29 best way to stitch together 00:05:31 sarob: I think we're just saying, the admin manual may be a different beast, divided in to an admin user guide and config ref 00:05:40 roger that 00:05:56 sarob: and it won't be titled "Compute" only 00:06:24 the training will be more like assoc, ops, dev, devops 00:06:44 with subsection specialities 00:07:11 sarob: yeah taht's why the audience, task, and objectives will help with matching 00:07:23 3rd dimension 00:07:45 i will add those attrib in 00:08:00 sarob: awesome 00:08:07 we're overtime for the meeting - any objections if I end the recording now? 00:08:27 nope, thanks for your time 00:08:31 #endmeeting