21:00:41 #startmeeting 21:00:42 Meeting started Thu Aug 9 21:00:41 2012 UTC. The chair is vishy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 21:00:43 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 21:01:19 yo! 21:01:23 hi. 21:01:31 #link Agenda: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/Nova 21:01:34 Oh hai 21:02:00 * markmc clicks 'Subscribe' on that page, keep forgetting about it 21:02:50 hi 21:03:09 #topic XML Support in Nova 21:03:26 so lzyeval was looking into the current support for xml 21:03:34 * vishy digs up the email 21:04:01 #link http://etherpad.openstack.org/NovaAPIXMLSupport 21:04:31 so a whole bunch of the extensions don't support XML serialization right now 21:04:47 * deserialization 21:05:07 and because we have no end-to-end xml tests it is likely that the ones that do are broken 21:05:39 he also mentioned that some have deserializers but no serializers, so if any post requests take nested data they are likely broken as well 21:05:57 so the question is: what do we do about it. 21:06:26 option 1) announce in the release notes that xml is not going to be maintained 21:06:50 option 2) is file bugs against all the serializers and get those fixed and put together some end-to-end xml testing 21:07:09 option 3) ???? 21:07:11 any ideas? 21:07:21 well, (2) requires a volunteer 21:07:28 even to just file the bugs etc. 21:07:47 is there another option that I'm not considering? 21:08:00 so, put out a call for volunteers to do 2, and in the absence of that getting done, 1? 21:08:05 i guess there is a middle ground of checking the most important extensions 21:08:19 i guess that's some variation of 2 ... 21:08:27 (3) mark it as "experimental" somehow, maybe require a flag to be set for it to be enabled 21:08:36 and making sure that basic funcionality works. Saying hey, the cloudpipe controller is json only etc. 21:09:08 here is the real question: there are a lot of bugs that can be worked on 21:09:20 how do we prioritize xml vs the other set of bugs? 21:09:34 and do we lose community support if we say we don't care about xml 21:10:30 doesn't sound like we have the answer to that here 21:10:32 the main thing is to make the current state clear to everyone 21:10:38 you can't force folks to fix it 21:10:49 and you're right, it's not like nova-core should drop everything and just fix it 21:10:59 and it's not a great option to just remove it either 21:11:04 #action vishy to email the list about current state of xml and ask for bug reports and volunteers to fix it. 21:11:05 have many or even any bugs been filed against the current incomplete XML support? 21:11:10 <_0x44> Especially when you consider that the one person who ostensibly cares the most about xml has publicly asked us to kill it. 21:11:24 eglynn: the only person i know who filed bugs against it was justinsb 21:11:32 (an indication of whether the community really cares about XML support) 21:11:37 _0x44, that's obtuse for any of us who don't know the history 21:11:46 * markmc thinks xml is a nice feature, if it worked 21:12:08 yep agreed, but incomplete/broken is worse in a way ... 21:12:11 justinsb was a big java advocate, likes xml, but specifically stated he prefers a working json implementation to a buggy xml implementation 21:12:21 heh, ok 21:12:24 that is the history :) 21:12:33 <_0x44> markmc: Sorry, justinsb was writing a client for Java and wanted to use the XML apis but couldn't because they're shit. 21:12:47 _0x44, cool, thanks 21:12:47 ok next topic, we will see if we get any help from the ml. 21:13:04 #topic Blueprint / Review Updates 21:13:23 mikal: need anything for Config Drive / Metadata? 21:13:28 seems to be going well 21:13:33 I'm replying to people's reviews now 21:13:42 #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/general-host-aggregates 21:13:46 I think the only hard bit left is nailing down the format for file inject 21:14:01 I don't much care what we do 21:14:06 I just want the adults to stop fighting 21:14:32 mikal: yes any format seems fine 21:14:39 mikal: we need a format for network data as well 21:14:47 Padraig pointed out a vulnerability in the way its done now 21:14:56 So that will need to be tweaked a little at the least 21:15:09 At the moment you just get the network data in the format that the inject code gets it 21:15:12 mikal: I would say lets just use a simple json/yaml representation 21:15:16 (Which I think is what original inject did too) 21:15:36 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10934/ 21:15:38 Yeah, it would be nice if we could also iterate -- get this code in todayish, and then do another review with tweaks 21:15:40 mikal: yeah i suppose that is fine for now, if someone wants to convert it to some standard format for the next version that is fine 21:16:08 I'll change to a json flavoured inject this morning, cause it fixes Padraig's concerns too 21:16:19 * vishy put the blueprints out of order on the agenda 21:16:29 let me go back to the right order 21:16:32 mikal: sounds good 21:16:44 back to general host aggregates 21:17:08 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10256/ 21:17:08 does someone else want to review part 2? 21:17:26 #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/general-host-aggregates 21:17:55 i can review it tomorrow 21:17:59 #info we are probably fine pushing this one to grizzly: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10826/ 21:18:07 but we definitely need part 2 in 21:18:16 * comstud is here 21:18:31 the above one would be cool, but i won't cry too loudly if it misses 21:18:43 still great to review it if someone wants to. Just me so far 21:19:03 ok if we get reviews that one is fine 21:19:22 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/11009/ 21:19:30 needs review 21:19:33 mtaylor: ^^ 21:19:40 status on that fix? 21:20:15 #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/integrate-python-glanceclient 21:20:49 lzyeval: hi 21:20:59 lzyeval: we can discuss xml again in a minute 21:21:07 vishy: sure 21:21:17 so reviews on glanceclient are important as well 21:21:56 looks like yun mao isn't here 21:22:03 i was going to ask if there is more to be done for: 21:22:04 vishy: I can look at glanceclient... 21:22:12 #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/task-management 21:22:16 dprince: awesome thanks 21:22:40 the server extension blueprint is well underway. The reviews should be easy 21:22:55 vishy: I know of at least one review that seems to be stalled on the state management stuff 21:23:05 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/disable-server-extensions,n,z 21:23:13 dansmith, yeah, this I presume - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10774/ 21:23:14 dansmith: that last delete in any state review? 21:23:21 it's his set-task-state-to-none-after-any-failure one, which is similar to what I almost got done earlier 21:23:30 dansmith, haven't gotten around to compare that with your @revert_state patch 21:23:33 markmc: yep 21:23:50 yes yun seems to be away for the bast few days 21:23:50 dansmith, I was pretty happy with yours fwiw 21:23:53 markmc: well, I asked if I should resurrect mine in the face of Johannes' concerns 21:24:14 markmc: if you think I should just do it, then I will. it's gonna be fairly small now 21:24:24 dansmith: might as well reprop it 21:24:29 yeah, agree 21:24:29 t'was trying to be polite when I asked, which is so unlike me :) 21:24:40 vishy: a'ight 21:24:49 #action dansmith to repropose is revert_state decorator 21:25:11 so delete in any state is going well 21:25:15 but it will need some approvals 21:25:28 there are 4 or 5 more patches to go in but they should all be really simple like the last few 21:25:41 sdague: are you still doing the two you have assigned 21:25:48 nati_uen_: ditto 21:25:58 jk0: are you still planning on helping? 21:26:05 yessir 21:26:20 vishy: Not started yet. But I'll finish this in this week 21:26:24 i did a bunch, so there are only a few left, but helping with reviews would also be awesome 21:26:27 vishy: yes, I'll redo the one that I've got already after the rebase confusion tonight, and get to the other one in the morning 21:26:46 vishy: had some things come up this week so I wasn't able to help as much as I would have liked 21:27:03 jk0: the last few should be pretty easy 21:27:06 vishy: but toss reviews my way and I will make time for them 21:27:11 ok 21:27:16 if you guys don't take them I will probably just bang them out :) 21:27:29 it would be nice if https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10816/ landed, because I'd do some refactoring on the tests after that 21:27:30 jk0: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/disable-server-extensions,n,z 21:28:07 so nova core reviews on that patch by vishy are appreciated 21:28:09 sdague: don't know if you saw, but I put three more reviews into the series 21:28:22 vishy: I guess I didn't notice that yet, I'll go look 21:28:56 still not sure about the plugin framework 21:29:27 comstud: can you have someone review this? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/9879/ 21:29:36 i think it is good to go, but you guys are the xen users 21:29:45 <_0x44> sdague: I just reviewed it 21:30:01 looks like it needs a rebase though 21:30:02 sure 21:30:04 i will ping renuka 21:30:29 but review for content would be good 21:30:38 and we can slam it in after rebase 21:30:52 git slam 21:30:53 git: 'slam' is not a git command. See 'git --help'. 21:30:54 hmm 21:31:16 hehe 21:31:26 so last few 21:31:29 bare metal 21:31:44 they are splitting it into five patches to make reviewing easier 21:31:51 but eyes on those reviews would be awesome 21:31:52 oh, awesome 21:32:03 they have the first couple up 21:32:07 1 for db 1 for docs 21:32:42 The db one is still quite big 21:32:58 #action nova-core to help review bare-metal patches 21:33:14 vishy: once we get to the end of blueprint round up, I had some questions about additional driver reviews (powervm and storwize) 21:33:15 my initial thought is to delay both the ServiceGroup patch and the Cells stuff to post Folsom 21:33:21 #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/general-bare-metal-provisioning-framework 21:33:21 thoughts? 21:33:37 #link https://review.openstack.org/10903 21:33:56 vishy: it might be wishful thinking, but I wanted to use that to supplement the matchmaker. 21:33:59 think delaying cells makes sense 21:34:05 when is the deadline ? 21:34:06 (re: ServiceGroup) 21:34:14 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10707/ 21:34:15 did my best to dig into it, but it's slow going - gnarly (but awesome) stuff 21:34:18 Tuesday 21:34:21 ya 21:34:50 grizzly isn't far away :) 21:35:04 i don't have a strong opinion 21:35:12 and it's always cool to have some nice big features lined up ready to merge when a new cycle opens 21:35:21 i'm not upset if it won't merge for folsom 21:35:22 ewindisch: i think the service_group stuff is correct 21:35:34 i'm just worried about potentially breaking things 21:35:46 last I checked no-db-compute was still listed for folsom.. assume that should be changed now? 21:35:57 it doesn't really give us any value until the other backends are done, so putting it in right now seems a little risky 21:36:07 dansmith: i untargetted it for f-3 21:36:09 dansmith: correct 21:36:17 but grizzly hadn't been created yet so i didn't move it to grizzly 21:36:18 ton more work to do, unfortunately 21:36:27 #link: https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/folsom-3 21:36:31 that is the current stuff 21:36:33 out of curiosity, when will the grizzly tree open up? 21:36:38 vishy: The plan is to hopefully move service group into common, by the way. 21:36:40 vishy: ah, okay, I see. still says accepted for folsom, but not targetted.. gotcha 21:37:04 dansmith: i think once we cut RCs for folsom ... 21:37:19 russellb: cool 21:37:22 it might be a good candidate for grizzly -- besides the matchmaker requirements, I think everything else that NEEDS this can/will/should wait for Grizzly. 21:37:49 ewindisch: yes that is my thought 21:38:11 sdague: I'm not sure last time we opened it after the first rc 21:38:22 but it made backporting extremely painful 21:38:30 so we might delay it a bit longer 21:38:44 vishy: by the way, what is the policy on merging from common after Tuesday? 21:38:46 ok, no worries. Is there already a grizzly-1 tag in launchpad, so we can target cells and service groups for that? 21:39:07 should be no different than any other nova patches ... bug fixes should be fine, features require an exception, right? 21:39:07 ewindisch: for bug fixes its fine 21:39:18 ewindisch, I'll be locking down common for folsom too 21:39:25 markmc: good call 21:39:35 russellb, why thank you :) 21:39:41 that's actually a very interesting question, should there be an attempt to do a broad common -> nova sync before then. I think a number of things are out of sync atm. 21:39:49 i know you just desperately wanted my validation 21:39:52 sdague, yep, we should 21:40:02 sdague, I'll make sure that happens 21:40:30 cool 21:40:33 russellb, validate my sad and lonely patch too, then : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10598/ :) 21:40:50 ha, k 21:40:51 ok any other reviews that i missed? 21:41:02 yes, approx 50 others :) 21:41:07 we're up around 60 now 21:41:08 heh 21:41:13 we had it down to 40 last week 21:41:38 :( 21:41:40 and we can't even blame it on a slew of no-db-messaging patches 21:41:48 :-p 21:41:51 lots of +2's so assuming those are looking good it should go down quick. 21:42:04 but we can still blame it on russellb without any justification, right? 21:42:04 ok well maybe we need to discuss that in the next topic 21:42:12 sure 21:42:14 lol 21:42:22 #topic Core Work Planning 21:42:36 review days have fallen off the map along with soren 21:42:48 are they valuable, should we restart them? 21:43:02 not IMO ... i think everyone should be trying to do it along the way 21:43:09 i usually cannot follow the review days 21:43:15 I don't know about others, but having a day assigned to me is awkward because I have to work it around work commitments 21:43:21 it used to kick me into action, but I'm trying to keep more regular about it now 21:43:22 I'd like to not continue them 21:43:22 so I review randomly 21:43:36 #link http://173.203.107.207/~soren/stats/nova-30days.json 21:43:44 mikal: has been reviewing like a beast 21:43:47 review days almost always conflict with schedules... I like the continual model. 21:43:52 russellb and markmc as well 21:43:53 reason being, I feel like everyone on the core team is responsible enough to do the job w/o being told 21:44:00 \o/ 21:44:04 smokestack is kicking ass! 21:44:10 russellb: hi five! 21:44:14 I've never been a fan of review days myself 21:44:15 jenkins has been doing its share of reviewing, too 21:44:16 i've actually been more slack than usually lately because of no-db-messaging, should be able to pick it back up soon 21:44:18 that's good to see 21:44:22 but every day is a review day for me 21:44:28 one prob with the review day concept is that the original reviewer may not follow up on revised patch sets that aren't proposed til the next day 21:44:51 so we just all have to buckle down and review as much as possible by tuesday 21:45:02 eglynn, point 21:45:02 yeah, we should just try to get 1 or more done per day minimal, and we'll be in good shape 21:45:03 after that it is bugfix reviews which will hopefully be easier 21:45:16 so what about bug triaging? 21:45:26 markmc: good point or bad point? you just acknowledged that it was a point. 21:45:28 one more thing on reviews 21:45:32 maybe we just apply the same principle to bugs as soon as f-3 is done? 21:45:37 we should try and share tips for keeping on top of reviews 21:45:38 e.g. 21:45:56 1) try using 'git review list' rather than the web UI, also 'git review open' and 'git review download' 21:46:16 2) set up a mail filter to put mail notifications for reviews your subscribed to in a special folder, so you follow up 21:46:19 etc. 21:46:22 markmc: that sounds like it would be an excellent blog post :) 21:46:27 I've been using this: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+-reviewer:mikalstill+-owner:mikalstill,n,z 21:46:31 sdague, hmm, point 21:47:01 mikal, that's a "nova stuff I haven't looked at" query? 21:47:14 Yeah, "review targets" is what its called in the bookmark 21:47:25 For stuff I've looked at, that's in my personal dashboard already 21:47:42 markmc: nice pointers. I still use http://reviewday.ohthree.com/ to try and go after *the important stuff* first. 21:47:56 dprince, indeed, reviewday is another one 21:48:12 Is there a way to have reviewday show me _only_ nova reviews? 21:48:17 sounds like I need to rename now that 'review days' are out of style though :( 21:48:26 * markmc ponders having 'git review list' sort by reviewday score 21:48:31 and include test results 21:48:38 mikal: I could add tabs for that. 21:48:39 mikal: scroll down? 21:48:46 mikal: low tech solution :) 21:48:58 Yeah, I've been practising my scrolling skills 21:49:08 oh, another tip 21:49:17 learn gerrit's shortcut keys 21:49:20 handy 21:49:38 just hit '?' in a review 21:49:39 my secret sauce is maintaining inbox 0, so I immediately see and handle new mail 21:50:14 i maintain inbox 0 using mail filters. works great. 21:50:21 * jk0 uses no filters 21:50:29 just command + a, delete! 21:50:32 jk :) 21:50:41 do we have a place for handy review tips? 21:50:46 in the wiki 21:50:49 to the wiki! 21:50:50 * markmc has subscribed to all nova reviews, filters them into a separate folder from "my reviews" 21:51:08 #action nova-core to do lots of reviews by Tuesday 21:51:17 heh, nice 21:51:24 honestly, a blog post on the planet would probably get more attention than the wiki 21:51:46 #action nova-core to switch to bug-fixing after F-3 21:51:59 vishy, sorry, you moved onto bug triage 21:52:02 sdague: But everyone should first tip in the wiki 21:52:06 sdague: agreed, although I was thinking put stuff in the wiki and email about it 21:52:14 sdague: and then post it on planet 21:52:17 #topic XML redux 21:52:19 sure, fair 21:52:26 lzyeval: so I shared the etherpad earlier 21:52:31 do you have any new information? 21:52:39 #action markmc start a ReviewerTips wiki page 21:53:07 vishy: Well that etherpad is about how many handlers each controllers have xml support 21:53:10 we decided to send out an email asking for some help bug reporting and fixing if people care about xml support 21:53:55 vishy: yeah and so I tried to find a method to do end to end tests 21:54:14 and it seems only writing unittest would be the answer 21:54:17 like 21:54:28 nova/tests/api/openstack/compute/test_images.py 21:54:37 lzyeval: my thinking was hack novaclient to do xml in addition to json and run exercises.sh 21:54:42 :) 21:55:32 vishy: then do we write the request format manually? 21:55:50 vishy: I've seen api.openstack.org for the request and responses for XML 21:56:07 well yes we would have to serialize into xml as well as json 21:56:12 vishy: but suspicious of it being out of date 21:56:24 kind of annoying but it would at least give us basic functionality 21:56:43 vishy: So it would be a form of a smoketest? 21:57:23 lzyeval: There are some with xml tests included like: nova/tests/api/openstack/compute/contrib/test_extended_status.py 21:57:48 so that helps a bit, but without a little bit of devstack/exercises.sh testing i really have no confidence 21:59:11 vishy: one last thing is "is it worth the effort"? 21:59:28 I think we are all thinking of dropping xml 21:59:42 quantum team also. 22:00:17 lzyeval: yes that was the conclusion we came to but I don't think we can just arbitrarily drop it in the current version of the api 22:00:30 lzyeval: we just need to give people reasonable expectations about what works 22:01:04 i will go to the mailing list with a request for help. If we get none, then we will just have to assume that it doesn't matter and we will tell people not to use it. 22:01:08 Ok then, but I'll need some help. I'll devise a plan and start post on ML 22:01:20 vishy: ok 22:01:40 vishy: before we wrap up (give time), I'd like to ask about driver reviews. There is a powervm (nova.virt) and storwize (nova.volume) driver out for review, and it would be nice to get some non-ibm eyes on them. 22:02:02 sdague: ok 22:02:22 the storwize one is in cinder, but it's a cross port to nova-volume in case nova-volume is only deprecated for folsom (not removed) 22:02:36 I'm really hoping that we can start keeping those out of tree 22:02:48 sdague: if it is in cinder already then we can merge it 22:03:01 #link: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/10535/ 22:03:03 I'd prefer to keep them aligned as possible before the s3 release 22:03:31 another thing worth mentioning is the thread about the default for rpc_backend 22:03:37 more nova-core opinions needed 22:03:39 #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2012-August/000445.html 22:03:40 vishy: yes, the storwize team is cross syncing 22:03:54 sdague: the powervm one i will try to look at tomorrow 22:04:01 vishy: so is the intent to start removing virt drivers entirely? 22:04:18 just trying to understand the comment about out of tree 22:04:26 separate packages for drivers seems like a really good way to do it 22:04:51 though that's certainly not happening for folsom at this point ... 22:05:03 sdague: I don't know why nova-core needs to review a bugfix to the storwise driver for example 22:05:04 ok, fair, as long as it's consistent. just don't want to make 2 classes of drivers, in and out of tree. 22:05:13 russellb: clearly, but we should revisit at the summit 22:05:17 fair enough 22:05:19 vishy: right, definitely fair 22:05:22 for grizzly I'd like to have drivers be packages 22:05:39 packages == separate trees, or ? 22:05:55 dansmith: separate trees would probably be easier 22:05:56 vishy: that means making a much stronger driver api contract 22:05:56 heh, talk about a can of worms for the end of the meeting :) 22:05:58 because they can all be in nova.git and pacakged separately by distros, right? 22:06:07 sdague, right 22:06:10 dansmith: that might be step one 22:06:42 dansmith: if we could get a way to give +2 rights to subtrees that would be amazing 22:06:58 so a person could own an approval if it only touched files under a certain tree. 22:06:59 so, action: vishy to review new driver for folsom consideration? 22:07:00 I suppose there'd also need to be some CI work done so that all the drivers are checked, even those outside nova.git 22:07:00 yeh, ok, so we'll take that one to summit then. I think this gets into the extension points ideas as well 22:07:09 russellb: sure 22:07:10 before we get too far into the weeds when we're already past the hour :) 22:07:16 vishy, yeah, something like that makes good sense 22:07:18 vishy: yeah, that's a good goal, but definitely takes some orchestration to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand 22:07:29 #action vishy to review power_vm driver 22:07:32 if it's self contained enough, seems like a good candidate for a FFE after the freeze 22:07:44 #link: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/9666/ 22:07:45 if it doesn't happen in the next few days 22:07:47 anything else? 22:08:27 you guys all rock. <3 nova. that is all. 22:08:30 we appear to have a lot of things going on 22:08:39 russellb: +! 22:08:42 russellb: +1 22:09:42 ok 22:09:48 letus continue with reviews then 22:09:54 #endmeeting