22:01:24 <gabrielhurley> #startmeeting horizon
22:01:25 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Oct  1 22:01:24 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:01:27 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
22:01:29 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'horizon'
22:01:32 <gabrielhurley> hello folks
22:01:36 <jcoufal> _o/
22:01:37 <lsmola> hello
22:01:37 <david-lyle> Hello
22:01:39 <kspear> hi
22:01:42 <timductive1> o/
22:01:45 <gabrielhurley> #topic overview
22:01:53 <gabrielhurley> https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/havana-rc1
22:01:53 <lblanchard> hi all!
22:01:58 <gabrielhurley> that's pretty much the story, there
22:02:06 <gabrielhurley> last five bugs, all with patches that are merging presently
22:02:23 <gabrielhurley> keep an eye on 'em to make sure they don't get stuck or anything, but that's where we're at
22:02:40 <lcheng> hello
22:02:54 <gabrielhurley> once they're all merged I'll push a version bump, ttx will cut the RC from that commit, and master is open for icehouse work
22:03:16 <gabrielhurley> after the RC is cut, any fixes that need to go into Havana need to be fixed in master first, then backported to the RC branch
22:03:33 <ttx> only if an RC window is reopened
22:03:38 <ttx> (the backport)
22:03:41 <gabrielhurley> indeed
22:03:50 <gabrielhurley> best case is we don't have any need for an RC2
22:03:55 <ttx> i.e. we need to have an annoying bug at least
22:04:18 <gabrielhurley> given how much work we've done to vet RC1 I think it's possible we won't, but better to know what happens if we do have to do an RC2 than not.
22:04:56 <gabrielhurley> generally the bar for respinning the RC for me is either a security problem or a significantly broken user-facing feature.
22:05:44 <gabrielhurley> The one last thing I will do today is to write up the release notes and commit those to the repo, as is my custom. that'll come in right before the version bump commit
22:06:26 <gabrielhurley> Aside from the RC, the only other official business this week is that PTL elections are currently in progress. You should have received an email with a link to vote. If you did not, please let me know.
22:08:06 <gabrielhurley> I don't have any other topics for this meeting. The bugs are in a known place, and it's a little early to start reviewing blueprints for Icehouse. I'm just gonna skip straight to open discussion.
22:08:09 <gabrielhurley> #topic open discussion
22:08:17 <gabrielhurley> free for all!
22:08:45 <david-lyle> The bug mentioned in the last meeting https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1211535 is not really complete
22:08:47 <uvirtbot> Launchpad bug 1211535 in horizon "HorizonMiddleware class causes excessive session creation" [Medium,Fix committed]
22:09:12 <ekarlso> gabrielhurley: question, do you got a clue on the resource introspection stuff and realtime notifications ?
22:09:14 <david-lyle> the fix that went in django_openstack_auth was a minor fix that complemented it
22:09:43 <gabrielhurley> david-lyle: no?
22:09:52 <gabrielhurley> yeah, I thought the other half was also merged
22:10:13 <david-lyle> the patch to Horizon was reverted because the fix in django_openstack_auth was needed, the original patch has not been reposted
22:10:20 <gabrielhurley> ekarlso: introspection is an Icehouse maybe. realtime is an icehouse definite.
22:10:45 <ekarlso> gabrielhurley: isn't introspection already due date ?
22:10:55 <david-lyle> gabrielhurley: we can close Havana without it, but we should reopen it
22:11:03 <ekarlso> i mean, i thought you talked about it for grizzly ?
22:11:05 <gabrielhurley> david-lyle: ah, I missed that it hadn't been re-posted. let's get that up now that django_openstack_auth is published.
22:11:58 <gabrielhurley> ekarlso: that's true, but there's no current resources available to tackle it. it was one of my personal projects, but my budget for coding time on Horizon ain't what it used to be. the realtime stuff has a lot more interest and energy around it right now, and it's one I'm currently more invested in.
22:12:16 <gabrielhurley> It's only about 50% true that what I say "just happens"
22:12:18 <gabrielhurley> ;-)
22:12:35 <ekarlso> gabrielhurley: lots of nebula stuff going on rather then horizon ? ;p
22:12:51 <gabrielhurley> david-lyle: does the patch need any changes or can it just be re-approved as it was with the new openstack_auth?
22:12:53 <david-lyle> gabrielhurley: if we do, we'll have to bump openstack/requirements to 1.1.3 for django_openstack_auth and then horizon as well.  Causes ugly error without django_openstack_auth fix
22:13:28 <gabrielhurley> hmmm... the upper range isn't pinned, so it'd get picked up in new ones, but not in old ones.
22:13:59 <david-lyle> but, Horizon can't pin unless openstack/requirements pins
22:14:16 <gabrielhurley> okay, I re-opened the ticket. I'll tag it as a havana-rc-potential and we can revisit it *if* we need to cut another RC. let's get the work done on it though.
22:14:33 <david-lyle> ok, yeah, I think it's an all or none kind of deal in my mind
22:14:37 <gabrielhurley> if by chance it all lands before everything else in the gate, that simplifies things, I suppose
22:15:05 <david-lyle> gabrielhurley: sounds good
22:15:19 <gabrielhurley> okay. ticket marked as such.
22:15:50 <gabrielhurley> other topics?
22:16:15 <kspear> i think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/42240/ was the repost fwiw
22:17:17 <david-lyle> I'll work with the author to iron this out
22:17:26 <gabrielhurley> thanks
22:19:43 <gabrielhurley> going once....
22:19:46 <lblanchard> I've created some wireframes around some details pages for Tuskar...
22:19:49 <lblanchard> http://people.redhat.com/~lsurette/OpenStack/Tuskar%20Detail%20Pages_1.0.pdf
22:19:55 <lblanchard> if anyone has interest in reviewing them
22:20:03 <lblanchard> there is a thread on the ML
22:20:12 <lsmola> cool
22:20:36 <david-lyle> lblanchard: at first glance, those look really nice, but no tables !!  :)
22:20:36 <lblanchard> even though these are focused on Tuskar, I think there could be a lot of reuse in the visualizations for Horizon proper
22:20:50 <lblanchard> david-lyle: true, no tables :)
22:21:09 <lblanchard> david-lyle: but a user would probably get to these from tables, haha
22:21:18 <david-lyle> gotta have tables
22:21:25 <lblanchard> david-lyle: maybe there is information missing that belongs in tables
22:22:27 <timductive1> those are some nice visualizations lblanchard
22:22:41 <gabrielhurley> very nice. my one piece of practical advice on these (from having gone through this with Nebula's designer working on both OpenStack and Nebula's dashboard) is that the "ideal"/"end goal" wireframes are often so far out that even beginning to implement them can be tough. Data sources for many of those metrics are difficult and deployment-dependent. Beyond that,  I can identify a dozen things in those that don't exist in
22:22:55 <gabrielhurley> I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it might also be helpful to have "transition" wireframes
22:23:17 <lblanchard> timductive1: thanks!
22:23:19 <gabrielhurley> or some plan for how we achieve this end goal, and all the stakeholders involved
22:23:21 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: fair point
22:23:36 <jcoufal> right.. I have actually some wireframes around tuskar as well
22:23:37 <timductive1> also check that d3 can handle all of those visualization types
22:23:39 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: I agree…I'll be working closely with lsmola on this
22:23:46 <jcoufal> mostly around processes, which might help to get the idea better
22:23:51 <jcoufal> let me search for the links :)
22:23:52 <gabrielhurley> jcoufal: I was gonna ask how much you and lblanchard's work overlapped here...
22:24:22 <gabrielhurley> timductive1: it can with a little elbow-grease. You can build whatever you need with it.
22:24:27 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: jcoufal and I have been working closely…making sure we don't step on each others toes, and being consistent with designs
22:24:28 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: lblanchard is focusing more on detail pages and metrics, I am more dealing around concepts and workflows
22:24:40 <gabrielhurley> I've seen many of those things built before, which is why I know the cost in work-hours.
22:24:42 <jcoufal> we are in sync, reviewing and cooperating
22:24:57 <gabrielhurley> lblanchard, jcoufal: great. just making sure.
22:25:19 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: :)
22:25:40 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: I will be sure to help development through transitional wireframes if information isn't available to start...
22:25:49 <jcoufal> here are latest proposals
22:26:01 <jcoufal> #link http://people.redhat.com/~jcoufal/openstack/tuskar/2013-09-30_tuskar_l-group_creation_wireframes.pdf
22:26:05 <gabrielhurley> in general I totally love the wireframes. I just want to make sure we don't kill ourselves trying to get there. :-)
22:26:06 <lsmola> timductive1, there is also rickshaw library for linecharts
22:26:16 <jcoufal> #link http://people.redhat.com/~jcoufal/openstack/tuskar/2013-09-30_tuskar_resource_class_creation_wireframes.pdf
22:26:24 <david-lyle> I'm hoping Tuskar is responsible for most of the data aggregation
22:26:28 <lsmola> gabrielhurley, we will start with little pieces :-)
22:26:56 <jcoufal> and the whole youtube stream explaining them :) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y6uD8yKVQ)
22:27:03 <timductive1> Ismola true
22:27:33 <gabrielhurley> It's also worth noting that, while Tuskar/Triple-O *is* cool and offers awesome possibilities, it's still not gonna even graduate for another 6 months at best and would be in the integrated release two cycles from now. That's a pretty long time.
22:27:36 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: yeah, agreed. Now that I've put together what we would love to have, I will step back and with lsmola figure out what is feasible for a first cut.
22:27:49 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: yes
22:28:14 <lsmola> gabrielhurley, we can use Horizon in tripleo now
22:28:33 <lsmola> gabrielhurley, so we would like to make all chart libraries upstream first
22:29:00 <lblanchard> david-lyle: I believe the plan is that tuskar would do the aggregations…lsmola?
22:29:03 <gabrielhurley> for sure. I'm not here to direct where the energy of the UX group goes. Only making sure they have full information for where prioritizing their time.
22:29:15 <gabrielhurley> ignore my bad grammar
22:29:15 <jcoufal> Another update is on navigation enhancements - will be finishing prototype, sending it out shortly and I hope we send some initial patches soon as well
22:29:34 <gabrielhurley> jcoufal: I look forward to that
22:30:05 <lsmola> david-lyle, lblanchard  yeah in Undercloud Tuskar will make the aggregations
22:30:11 <lblanchard> side note…I'd be happy to hear from anyone if they do have certain UX things they'd like to see happen :)
22:30:45 <lsmola> david-lyle, lblanchard  in over cloud it will be project detail pages, instance detail pages, maybe host aggregates ..
22:31:19 * david-lyle feeling better
22:31:55 <gabrielhurley> my biggest UX wish is that we could roll the network topology stuff and the instance flows into one so that the topology view was the main way you interacted with the system... there's a lot of code peril to work through there, but I think it'd make the experience much more compelling.
22:32:04 <lsmola> david-lyle, overcloud and undercloud have similar aggregates :-)
22:32:27 <gabrielhurley> kinda like the heat topology view + network topology + instances + volumes all in one go.
22:32:37 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: yeah, I am already got in touch with Toshi around network topology
22:32:49 <david-lyle> I'm hoping to get time to work on a similar view for identity
22:32:51 <jcoufal> sorry for grammar
22:32:56 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: great to know! Maybe I can help wireframe there too.
22:33:02 <gabrielhurley> the code side is one thing, but I think having some clear wireframes demenstrating all the flows before we even start on the code would be a good idea.
22:33:10 <david-lyle> make groups/roles/projects/domains understandable
22:33:13 <gabrielhurley> it's also a bit tricky 'cuz you have to account for with *and* without Neutron
22:33:23 <gabrielhurley> david-lyle: ++
22:33:33 <jcoufal> david-lyle: ++
22:33:57 <jcoufal> david-lyle: that's great, we should jump into that as well
22:34:23 <david-lyle> between these topology type views and a real workflow, I think we can make Horizon a lot more accessible for a wider range of users
22:34:41 * david-lyle looking forward to Icehouse
22:34:41 <lblanchard> sounds great to me!!
22:34:51 <lsmola> great
22:34:55 <gabrielhurley> the group/role/project/domain discussion may fit in our IA session at the summit, but we may want to have a little informal hallway session on that topic alone.
22:35:11 <david-lyle> sounds like a good idea
22:35:23 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: me and lblanchard want to send out initial proposal before that
22:35:28 <jcoufal> to kick some discussion around
22:35:42 <jcoufal> and get people to start thinking on that
22:35:42 <gabrielhurley> I've tried various alternate ways of grouping that information and have had mixed success. I seem to always have to gloss over one variable to make it understandable.
22:37:31 <david-lyle> it's difficult and I think limiting the amount of information initially visible will help, because you can make it a real nightmare
22:37:43 <gabrielhurley> yep
22:38:08 <david-lyle> still working through the layout conceptually which is a big reason I haven't started the concrete work yet
22:38:29 <gabrielhurley> I've found the key to be to separate the problem spaces between the day-to-day "I need to operate in this context" and the very infrequent "I need to change something about my contexts"
22:38:48 <lblanchard> yeah, I think writing out the use cases would be really helpful
22:38:58 <lblanchard> and which persona would be performing them...
22:39:01 <gabrielhurley> finding the right UX metaphor for "operating in a context" and "changing contexts" is a fun challenge
22:39:16 <lblanchard> haha
22:39:17 <julim> I'm happy to help with the use cases
22:39:20 <gabrielhurley> s/changing/switching
22:39:32 <julim> just need better to understand what problem we're trying to solve...
22:39:55 <david-lyle> thanks julim
22:40:11 <julim> np david-lyle
22:40:13 <gabrielhurley> it's also interesting to think about how you would do this on a touch device, because those spacial/gestural metaphors are useful in thinking about this problem
22:41:30 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: yeah, we were just talking to other day about mobile support…I responded to a blueprint a few weeks back but haven't seen much action on the Horizon mobile BP
22:42:03 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: but in general it would be great to know what a user would do from a mobile device…research needed!
22:42:14 <david-lyle> did the assignee/proposer make any contact after the summit?
22:43:02 <gabrielhurley> david-lyle: once, early on, but that was about it
22:43:08 <gabrielhurley> they vanished pretty quick
22:43:26 <david-lyle> ahh, that's what I feared, large task
22:43:59 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: touch devices are definitely interesting challenge, on the other hand, I think that more important would be to increase UX of dashboard in general, we can keep touch devices in mind
22:44:00 <gabrielhurley> yep. I'm actually trying to recruit my good friend at Piston to do some work in making Horizon's stylesheets responsive
22:44:35 <jcoufal> but we won't hit that much audience with touch devices as we can touch with classic UI improvements
22:44:51 <david-lyle> +1
22:45:01 <gabrielhurley> jcoufal, lblanchard: my intention there was not to suggest that we should be building *for* touch devices, but to suggest that spatial metaphors are good for representing context switches, and touch devices are an easy touch-point (no pun intended) for that mindset.
22:45:34 <lblanchard> gabrielhurley: understood. Sorry it got me off on a tangent :)
22:45:44 <gabrielhurley> no worries
22:45:55 <gabrielhurley> mobile is also a great UX challenge
22:45:56 <jcoufal> gabrielhurley: right, that's true
22:46:20 <jcoufal> sorry for missunderstanding
22:46:23 <gabrielhurley> all good
22:49:15 <gabrielhurley> okay. anything else?
22:51:25 <gabrielhurley> cool! I'm gonna go write release notes.
22:51:35 <gabrielhurley> When next we talk we'll be looking at Icehouse
22:51:38 <gabrielhurley> have a great week!
22:51:40 <lsmola> cool
22:51:41 <gabrielhurley> #endmeeting