14:01:41 #startmeeting DocTeamMeeting 14:01:42 Meeting started Wed Jan 15 14:01:41 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:01:43 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:01:46 The meeting name has been set to 'docteammeeting' 14:01:50 boy I haven't done these in a while 14:01:59 Ok, action items from last meeting 14:02:07 #topic Action items from last meeting 14:02:07 good morning :) 14:02:27 I have one where slong was going to add WIP info to the HowTo page 14:03:29 Just did a search for "work in progress" and wip on that page but dont' see it 14:03:56 But also chandankumar has it as an action item from the previous meeting 14:04:27 I'd just do it but I'm not sure what people are seeking 14:04:33 Leaving it as a continuing action item 14:04:41 #action slong or chandankumar add WIP info to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#Reviewing_Documentation 14:05:06 #topic Report from Doc Bug Day Dec 20 14:05:08 yeah, i'm not sure what that's about 14:05:17 We definitely closed at least 80 bugs, that is FAN TAS TIC. 14:05:31 it was euphoric :) 14:05:46 hee 14:05:55 I also had the API site repo added to http://status.openstack.org/bugday/ 14:06:49 api site doesn't look so good! 14:06:51 ha 14:07:19 heh, well that shows 24 hours 14:07:25 so it only looked good the day of :) 14:07:31 i see 14:07:43 Hi, sorry being late ;( 14:08:07 hi andreas 14:08:26 morning! 14:08:28 AJaeger: dont worry, you got all the action items we already covered :) 14:08:40 Yeah! 14:08:41 there was a nice graph in activity.openstack.org I was going to post but I can't seem to find it, sigh 14:08:47 * AJaeger plans to ignore them ;) 14:09:02 it was a great effort 14:09:52 it was indeed! 14:10:06 the graph is like this one http://activity.openstack.org/data/display/OPNSTK2/All+Projects+Activity+Dashboard+-+Last+30+Days?src=contextnavchildmode but individual repos could be tracked. anywho. 14:10:18 #topic Schedule January Monthly Google Hangout 14:10:40 Looking at next Monday evening my time, 1/20 14:10:41 annegentle, http://activity.openstack.org/data/plugins/zfacts/renderpage.action?template=Project%20Activity&title=openstack-manuals%20-%20Activity%20Dashboard&repositoryID=SCM%2Crepository55dc94de-6597-4420-8e0b-09963819aade ? 14:10:57 AJaeger: YES! Thank you! 14:11:14 #link http://bit.ly/1b32JM0 14:11:35 Look at that spike! Woo. 14:11:42 annegentle: that time works for me. who all can join this? 14:12:00 Sam-I-Am: anyone can join, first 10 get mics 14:12:16 will it go on youtube? 14:12:19 I don't think there's another way with Google Hangouts, 10's the limit 14:12:28 yeah we will do "On Air" again which will go on youtube 14:12:35 I'm 6 (or 7) hours ahead of you - what time do you plan for the meeting? 14:12:42 There's also going to be a webinar the first week of Feb with QA, Docs, and Infra 14:13:08 AJaeger: I'm thinking of evening but you had to miss the last one because of that, right? We can try another time 14:13:22 Whatever works for most... 14:13:24 Let's play with http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html 14:13:39 AJaeger: I wouldn't mind playing with times a bit 14:13:44 what is the purpose of the google hangout? 14:13:46 sorry i'm late 14:14:01 hi nermina 14:14:07 hi sam-i-am 14:14:16 Hey, sorry I'm late, I was in the wrong room. :) 14:14:18 morning Sam-I-Am 14:14:19 dianefleming: Lana likes them for getting to know each other and real-time chat 14:14:26 heh sorry NickChase we lost that one 14:14:38 though no one's in there, oh well 14:14:45 that's life 14:14:50 all, do you think there's still value in the video chat? 14:14:51 as long as we know where to go. :) 14:15:17 okay - sounds good - 14:15:17 I'm torn; it's nice to see face to face, but it's nice to have everything recorded, too. 14:15:48 You know, looking at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20140115&p1=24&p2=37&p3=57 it seems like your 9:00PM might work AJaeger 14:15:50 or do you mean the sunday night thing in addition to this meeting? 14:16:09 annashen, my 9pm works for sure 14:16:24 carlp: hi 14:16:29 NickChase: two meetings: google hangout and a webinar 14:16:42 right, sorry,it's early. :) 14:16:42 i did my first hangout with tom the other day and it was really cool to see face to face 14:16:46 NickChase: no worries :) 14:16:47 so i think there's value in it 14:16:52 Sam-I-Am: yeah I like it too 14:16:56 plus it is recorded... 14:16:58 Yeah, there's value to it 14:17:06 ok cool 14:17:14 I do think it's good to see face to face, but let's keep it out of the weekends. :) 14:17:18 I'll set it up, this time more geared towards EU 14:17:26 NickChase: sure makes sense :) 14:17:34 For next week, look for an invite like last time 14:17:36 #topic Webinar in February (date tbd) to update Icehouse doc/qa/infra plans 14:17:53 Just letting you all know I'm prepping a 10-slide deck to share with anyone who comes to the webinar 14:17:57 I don't mind working at 9 or 10 pm, but weekends are off limits unless I want a divorce. 14:18:00 these are the same format as for all the PTLs 14:18:07 NickChase: heh, no one wants that! 14:18:13 which webinar? 14:18:21 not exactly true (divorce) 14:18:25 NickChase: a to be scheduled one similar to the ones the other PTLs have done 14:18:31 ah! 14:18:32 great! 14:18:39 this summit, HK, they stopped having the PTLs give an update for plans during the Summit itself 14:18:48 so, they're doing webinars after 14:18:52 this is docs turn 14:18:56 should be first week of Feb. 14:19:05 #topic Done with backports to stable/havana 14:19:09 ding, dong, done! 14:19:13 annegentle, is there anything you need help with for the webinar? 14:19:14 * Sam-I-Am faints 14:19:16 AJaeger: any comments there, are there more lurking? 14:19:37 Really the cutoff was going to be last week but without a meeting we didn't finalize 14:19:43 I always thing we're done - and in comes another one... 14:19:45 ;( 14:19:52 annegentle: i think we can kill major updates... but there might be serious things that come up 14:20:00 AJaeger: If you could put your wanted bullets into an email for the slides that would be awesome, how much focus on tools, also? 14:20:14 hey here i came, i just woke up! 14:20:22 chandankumar: welcome! 14:20:31 Yeah, there might be serious ones, let's backport those - but not anything minor or cosmetic 14:20:35 good morning, chandankumar. :) 14:20:47 annegentle, ok, can provide a slide or two for the tools as input 14:20:48 chandankumar: say, can you update the https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo page with WIP info? We weren't sure what needs to be added and it was an action item for you 14:20:54 AJaeger: perfect, thanks 14:21:06 AJaeger: any generic slide template (open office is fine too) would do 14:21:09 * Sam-I-Am needed to WIP something the other day :/ 14:21:16 NickChase, good morning 14:21:31 annegentle, doing that right now ! 14:21:33 annegentle, ok 14:21:40 Sam-I-Am: you can tell we are pretty easy to negotiate with 14:21:51 but what I want to communicate is that we're done backporting 14:21:57 yup 14:22:07 cool 14:22:08 the good news is we're leaving the havana install docs in a pretty good state 14:22:30 Sam-I-Am: they are really well off, and commenters are helping each other every day, which is so awesome 14:22:38 So let's get to it, 14:22:47 #topic Discuss any installation guide changes for Icehouse 14:23:07 At the Summit, we said we would continue in Icehouse with the manual install. That seems to be all fine and good. 14:23:08 Networking guide? 14:23:08 Just one wish: Rewrite Networking chapter ;) 14:23:16 AJaeger: yeah, about that... 14:23:18 :) 14:23:18 but first 14:23:28 One thing we are waiting for is a decision at i2 about whether we continue to doc nova-network with neutron 14:23:35 i'm installing icehouse now using trunk and so far so good 14:23:37 +1 on continuing manual install 14:23:50 +1 14:23:54 +1 14:24:01 annegentle, nova-network will be in Icehouse AFAIU the discussion 14:24:09 AJaeger: tha'ts my sense of it too 14:24:28 From the development discussions around nova-network and making changes to it it looks like it will still be there 14:24:30 http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-January/024175.html 14:24:36 NickChase: agreed 14:24:37 they are talking about using nova-conductor, etc. 14:24:42 so I think it needs to stay 14:24:54 yeah i dont think nova-net is going anywhere just yetr 14:24:58 So, I like that we get to maintain the current guide as-is 14:25:01 neutron still lacks a few important features 14:25:10 I know Sam-I-Am has good ideas for neutron too 14:25:16 and we'll ahve to add ml2 plugin explanations 14:25:23 annegentle: well, sort of. i'm wondering about putting all the networking stuff together 14:25:23 Sam-I-Am: This is true, but the goal is to have all those features in place for Icehouse 14:25:37 Sam-I-Am: tell me more, separate guide kinda stuff? 14:25:57 ML2 instead of current OVS I guess 14:25:57 it seems to me that the installation guide is where a lot of people end up first 14:25:58 I still like the choose your own adventure 14:25:59 The goal is to officially deprecate nova-network in Icehouse if possible 14:26:21 choose-your-own-adventure is of course best -- for some things. 14:26:24 And change the neutron chapter so that there is no jumping around - and the Use-cases section follows the rest 14:26:31 carlp: yes, and the sprint is still going on I think, so hence my lack of a final statement :) 14:26:32 so i'm thinking about offering configurations for a couple of common configurations... one or two with neutron, and of course nova if it still exists 14:27:00 Sam-I-Am: ok, that sounds ok (common configs for neutron) 14:27:02 for more advanced stuff, maybe consult the book on networking? 14:27:30 just dont want to overload people 14:27:50 Let's talk about "the book on networking". Right now there's a book for the networking API, and a monster chapter on networking in the Cloud Admin Guide. 14:27:57 Sam-I-Am: yeah that's what I'm thinking too, but we didn't really plan for a networking guide in icehouse and haven't found a real owner. Doesn't mean it's unpossible but we've got cleanup of cloud admin guide so I'm hesitant 14:28:16 Even so, it doesn't provide a lot of the context and concepts it needs. 14:28:16 NickChase: yeah talk more to it. 14:28:26 I would very much like to see us do the following: 14:28:58 1) Take the networking chapter and break it out into a stand-alone book that is ALSO included (via includes) in the Cloud Admin Guide. 14:29:24 2) Add contextual/introductory material that gives people the background that they need on important concepts. 14:29:43 3) Reorganize if necessary. (Not sure how much re-org will be necessary. Maybe not that much.) 14:29:55 I went through the structure in prep for this meeting 14:29:56 NickChase: do you have a writer in mind for 2)? 14:29:59 so... remove the networking chapter from the install guide? 14:30:01 is networking a post-installation (configuration) task? is that why you want it in the cloud admin guide? 14:30:10 NickChase: yeah I think that's fine maybe woudl question the duplication though 14:30:34 dianefleming: networking decisions do have to be made upfront, but people are not making good ones due to not having the background in networking 14:30:38 anngentle: I think that me and nermina can handle #2. 14:30:48 unless someone else wants it 14:30:56 Lorin will probably also be willing to assist in some way 14:31:11 he definitely was offering 14:31:13 NickChase: Yeah I don't think there's infighting for it :) Lorin started a new job and won't be working on OpenStack but might be swayed to help 14:31:27 re: the duplication, I'm not sure that there IS duplication. we're just making it possible to get networking on its own if you want it 14:31:31 Sam-I-Am: how interested are you in the networking guide? esp. the educational portions 14:31:34 we can make that clear right in the book 14:31:40 I would dis-agree that networking is a post installation task. Choosing neutron vs nova-networking is definitely an installation task. Having a very basic neutron config also makes sense as an install task, and then go into more advanced stuff later 14:31:44 NickChase: i was also hoping we would offer 2 arch options in the install guide... one for nova-net, one for neutron... then make sure we create detailed diagrams and background into for them... and follow the theme throughout the guide 14:32:06 carlp: particularly because your arch changes (e.g, addition of network node) 14:32:08 Thing is, I would prefer we point to other places to learn the complexities of networking rather than write our own... is there a way to keep the context in OpenStack or is the topic not like that? 14:32:10 carlp: I agree with you. But you can't put all of that in the install guide. :) 14:32:25 Sam-I-Am: now you're talkin' == sold! 14:32:32 i bet you that training guides have a lot of conceptual stuff 14:32:35 Sam-I-Am: Agreed, though I wouldn't kill ourselves on nova-net 14:32:38 NickChase: it seems to me that most people using the install guide just want it Just Work when they're done... THEN go figure out why it works :) 14:32:57 carlp: yeah the install guide needs to do one happy path then get people to really think about their deployment 14:33:33 annegentle: I agree to a certain extent, but it's difficult to find resources that really provide the context that we need. I'm all for linking out for topics where it exists, though. 14:33:34 annegentle: agreed, when I said "more advanced stuff later" that doesn't need to be in the install guide 14:33:35 thats why i was thinking about covering a couple of options well... provide a little background, but make them work. then provide the details and advanced config in a book somewhere... or some existing place 14:33:58 annegentle: yeah i can help with any networking stuff we put elsewhere 14:34:09 sam-i-am, have you seen the cloud admin guide's networking chapter? 14:34:14 Sam-I-Am: I agree that they want to just make it work. But usually, it won't, and there's no simple answer as to why. 14:34:17 nermina: briefly 14:34:28 NickChase: +1 14:34:42 i just recently moved quite a few config scenarios to it 14:34:45 The reality is that networking in OpenStack is just really, really complicated, and there's no getting around it. 14:34:59 NickChase: i think if we document the prereqs first, its not bad. i'm seeing plenty of people have success with neutron using the guide now. 14:35:19 Sam-I-Am: that's great, and I agree. 14:35:26 NickChase: using the ML2 driver with OVS and GRE "just works" in most cases these days. It's much simpler to debug over the older OVS code and is the forward path for the Neutron team anyway 14:35:31 NickChase: Sam-I-Am: can you also engage the neutron team after this week? They have a doc lead, Edgar Magana 14:35:43 annegentle: sure 14:35:43 I mentioned it at their team meeting week before last and they are interested 14:35:55 carlp: that's great. I'd love your feedback on this. 14:35:56 carlp: that is GREAT to hear 14:36:05 annegentle, while writing networking book, these two videos might be helpful http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afImoFeuDnY and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEa_8ESxPAY 14:36:07 carlp: makes the doc job that much easier 14:36:17 that's fantastic, Anne. I'd LOVE to get with Edgar. 14:36:21 Contact info? 14:36:23 one thing i think we can all agree on... lets break up the huge xml file covering neutron into per-node files like we do everywhere else :) 14:36:26 carlp: how much interest do you have in the networking vs install guide? 14:36:36 carlp: cuz you can probably tell we want to write this with a few people 14:36:36 Sam-I-Am: +` 14:36:41 that thing is a pain in the butt to edit 14:36:42 +1, even .:) 14:36:46 Sam-I-Am: oh good thinking 14:36:48 more like +100000 :) 14:36:54 very much so. 14:36:59 Sam-I-Am: make it so! 14:37:17 then we need to figure out if we keep the format supporting multiple plug-ins 14:37:19 I really appreciate how much thought people are putting into thise 14:37:22 these 14:37:32 or just go with ML2 and make the guide less jumpy 14:37:42 Sam-I-Am: Maybe we can get together later to discuss details? 14:37:44 Sam-I-Am: yeah, might play with it some and see what reviewers say, but I think ML2's the way 14:37:51 NickChase: yes! ... and carlp 14:38:09 annegentle: I have a lot of interest in making the documentation for networking better everywhere. Most of the customers I deal with are using blogs because the docs are not up-to-date enough or simply don't cover enough and it gets complicated because the blogs people find are not clear on what versions of OpenStack or the code, etc 14:38:10 annegentle: i might need some help breaking the big file up 14:38:24 i can help, sam-i-am 14:38:25 Sam-I-Am: I will help you with that 14:38:28 :) 14:38:34 high five 14:38:37 Opening a side channel to set a time... 14:38:42 carlp: we do see a lot of third-party guides... and i think those will go away if we make this guide work 14:38:51 Sam-I-Am: agreed 14:39:09 nermina/nick thanks... i'm not a docbook guru yet 14:39:29 you'll be one by the time you're done with this guide, sam-i-am :) 14:39:32 ha 14:39:32 Sam-I-Am: you're certainly doing a great job 14:39:33 Sam-I-Am: at least for the OpenSource stuff (OVS, LinuxBridge, etc). There will always be third-party guides for the proprietary plug-ins but that's unavoidable 14:39:45 carlp: are there already? 14:39:51 oh, sure... 14:40:19 annegentle: yes. Most of the third-party plugins from commercial vendors ship their own documentation to customers (nicira, etc) 14:40:38 carlp: ah ok, that's not stuff we see. Wonder if we can just make a list to links to their sites then? 14:40:48 carlp: that'd be a huge debt load off docs 14:40:54 +1 14:41:00 so far, i havent seen many people using the install guide with special plug-ins 14:41:07 its always been a very basic architecture 14:41:09 At the very least, WE can go there to get information. :) 14:41:14 funny thing is, block storage tends to write theirs upstream 14:41:17 annegentle: Maybe. Not all of them are publicly available. It's a mixed bag. 14:41:26 carlp: got it. good to know 14:42:12 woo mixed bag. not :) 14:42:28 ok, I'm definitely going to talk about install guide for that webinar 14:42:35 note to self 14:42:42 cool 14:42:45 anything else on install guide? networking guide? 14:42:55 nope. 14:43:03 i think we have a plan 14:43:07 I'm going to put up some actions then. cool. 14:43:08 except carlp, let me know when you can meet 14:43:22 #action NickChase and carlp and Sam-I-Am to meet 14:43:23 i'm installing icehouse where i can... should know soon how that's turning out 14:43:42 NickChase: can you share on the Mailing list about the networking guide pull out 14:43:47 NickChase: I'm flexible :) 14:43:48 NickChase: and contact Edgar? 14:43:57 Need his info. 14:43:59 annegentle, what is still left to do on the install guide? 14:44:01 and yes, I will. 14:44:07 #action NickChase to contact Edgar Magana on the neutron team to let him know the networking guide plan 14:44:19 #action annegentle to email Nick and Edgar 14:44:30 nermina: there's plenty of phrasing/formatting cleanup 14:44:32 #action NickChase to email openstack-docs mailing list with plan for networking guide 14:44:41 anything I missed? 14:44:49 nermina: lots of inconsistency between sections 14:44:56 #topic Doc tools update 14:45:12 sam-i-am, could you send me a msg with details? 14:45:20 The openstack-doc-tools release 0.3 went out Monday and release notes are now available 14:45:41 #link https://github.com/openstack/openstack-doc-tools 14:46:05 AJaeger: great story, I had an email from a cloud architect at Rackspace who found that missing div and your patch was already in the review queue! Winning. 14:46:27 ;) 14:46:36 nermina: e-mail? 14:47:02 There were many bugs in the api project sites where some never build - e.g. database-api was unbuildable 14:47:03 nmiller@mirantis.com 14:47:08 nermina: k 14:47:13 thanks, sam-i-am 14:47:31 AJaeger: wow that's blarg. Makes me want to go yell at people. Sigh. 14:47:39 AJaeger: good work here. 14:48:17 annegentle, there's wasn't a patch for 6 months at least for the repo - and the bug was using clouddocs-plugin 1.7-SNAPSHOT... 14:48:31 We really need those gates everywhere - I'm working on that 14:48:38 And dianefleming helped a lot debugging 14:48:46 AJaeger: yeah I know the peeps working on it (or not working currently) and it's a problem, thanks for the help 14:49:01 AJaeger: and, getting Japanese translation automated will be very exciting 14:49:27 YEah - but something I cannot handle right now - others have to help on that... 14:49:45 AJaeger: yeah I dont' think that's yours at all other than having the tool on pypi 14:50:03 i could help with database-api - let me know 14:50:11 or any other api that's not building 14:50:17 Let's see, nothing on the horizon for clouddocs maven plugin, though if you haven't pulled up api.openstack.org/api-ref.html you should! 14:50:20 #link api.openstack.org/api-ref.html 14:50:28 full refresh so that it works on mobile 14:50:44 A guy on me and Diane's team did it in like 4 hours on a Friday afternoon. He's that good. 14:51:07 annegentle: that's great! 14:51:09 dianefleming: cool thanks 14:51:22 #info openstack-doc-tools 0.3 released this week 14:51:43 #info clouddocs-maven-plugin released 1.12.2 refreshing http://api.openstack.org/api-ref.html 14:51:49 Anything else on tools? 14:51:54 # Open discussion 14:52:00 #topic Open discussion 14:52:16 sorry didn't mean to rush anyone but we've got 9 mins left 14:53:16 annegentle, nothing else on tools - hope to have the gates working quickly - but waiting for infra 14:53:38 AJaeger: fine work you're doing 14:53:40 What about glossary: Did you read my email? Is that something we should try for one guide - like Install Guide 14:53:49 AJaeger: I seriously was so happy about that caught div :) 14:54:04 AJaeger: oh yeah! GLossary 14:54:16 so during the book sprint the Ops guide peeps said the large glossary was tooooo big 14:54:32 dianefleming: didn't you try to do conditional output for it or some such? What was the story there? My memory fails me 14:54:59 You can either add the whole glossary - or just the entries used in the guide. I would go for the later for now.... 14:56:05 The security guide already has that glossary with just the entries used in it - have a look at my email for the link 14:56:08 AJaeger: dianefleming: okay maybe that's what I was thinking of,that there's an automated way to have a smaller glossary? 14:56:18 AJaeger: and the security guide does this already somehow? 14:56:34 http://docs.openstack.org/security-guide/content/go01.html 14:56:48 AJaeger: also is Tom accurate in his assessment that the glossary is not specially treated in translation? Not even sure how to research taht myself. 14:56:57 Yeah, it does it - really short one 14:57:23 The translators can just remove the few lines to include the glossary ;) 14:57:42 AJaeger: there's a bug already, it says See access control list. but access control list isn't an entry 14:57:44 It's easy to add the glossary in a way similar to the install guide. 14:57:50 AJaeger: ok 14:58:29 colinmcnamara: or sean roberts, any report for training? I saw your notes from the last meeting 14:58:31 annegentle, yeah - that one needs extra handling 14:59:01 AJaeger: ok, I'll file a doc bug 14:59:16 annegentle, assign it to me, I'll take care of it 14:59:37 AJaeger: thanks! 14:59:47 the hard part is adding all the entries to the guide.... 14:59:53 but not much... 15:00:26 AJaeger: yeah I see it as better than index entries but still work like that 15:01:26 Ok, outta time, not sure who has this room next. 15:01:31 Thanks everyone!! Great work, I mean that. 15:01:33 good meeting 15:01:34 #endmeeting