18:00:57 #startmeeting Diversity Working Group 18:00:58 Meeting started Fri Jun 19 18:00:57 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglute. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 18:01:02 The meeting name has been set to 'diversity_working_group' 18:01:23 hihi eglute :) 18:01:29 hello all 18:01:34 Hi 18:01:38 Hello! 18:01:43 Hello Everyone, if you are here for openstack diversity working group, please waive o/ and lets use etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/OpenStackDiversity.1 18:02:02 o/ 18:02:05 o/ 18:02:06 #topic introductions 18:02:07 o/ 18:02:08 o/ 18:02:12 Hello 18:02:22 o/ 18:02:37 o/ 18:02:46 o/ 18:02:48 o/ 18:02:50 o/ 18:02:51 o/ 18:03:14 hi everyone 18:03:15 o/ 18:03:17 #chair kavit 18:03:18 Current chairs: eglute kavit 18:03:19 * AlanClark does 'o\' show that I am left handed? 18:03:20 hello 18:03:24 #chair imadsousou 18:03:25 Current chairs: eglute imadsousou kavit 18:03:45 AlanClark \o does! 18:03:47 :D 18:04:24 hi there! 18:04:32 o/ 18:04:35 hi 18:04:54 \o (for diversity :-) 18:05:09 Hi Alan 18:05:14 (Friday humor) 18:05:29 jfleet 18:05:33 Hi Everyone! Raise your right, left, or both hands if you are attending the meeting. \o o/ \o/ 18:05:45 \o/ 18:05:50 \o/ 18:05:51 south paws represent! \o (hi Alan) 18:05:57 o/ 18:06:04 \o/ 18:06:05 \o/ \o/ \o/ 18:06:27 \o/ 18:06:29 \o/ 18:06:35 Is Carol B. here? she sent out a lot of the communications about the working group 18:06:42 yes, I'm here 18:06:53 #chair barrett 18:06:54 Current chairs: barrett eglute imadsousou kavit 18:07:01 hello barrett! 18:07:14 Hi eglute 18:07:40 Do we want to start with the 1st topic on the agenda? 18:07:46 yes! 18:07:48 o/ 18:07:51 I think we should 18:07:51 \O 18:08:08 #topic Introductions 18:08:32 Can folks indentify who they are and what company they are with? 18:08:39 sure 18:08:44 18:08:46 Niki Acosta, Cloud Evangelist, Cisco 18:08:52 jfleet Cloud304 18:08:55 Imad Sousou - Intel 18:08:57 * kavit Kavit Munshi - Aptira 18:08:57 Rainya Mosher, Product Manager, Rackspace 18:08:58 Nina Goradia, IBM 18:09:00 my name is Shilla - OpenStack Operations Engineer, Comcast 18:09:03 Alan Clark SUSE 18:09:13 Egle Sigler, Principal Architect at Rackspace 18:09:18 * jbryce works at OpenStack Foundation 18:09:18 Val Wanjura, Technical Ops Mgr, Rackspace 18:09:20 Gerd Pruessmann, Deutsche Telekom AG 18:09:21 Lauren Sell, OpenStack Foundation 18:09:22 Victor Morales - Intel 18:09:26 Claire Massey, OpenStack Foundation 18:09:28 Waldemar Znoinski - Intel 18:09:30 Tamara Johnston, EMC Global Services - Cloud 18:09:39 Carol Barrett, Intel 18:10:02 Rocky Grober, Huawei 18:10:06 Great group! 18:10:07 o/ 18:10:22 +1 18:10:51 Let's go to the next agenda item 18:11:07 #topic Mission Discussion and definition of Diversity 18:11:09 Mauri Whalen - Intel 18:11:46 You can find the mission for the group on the wiki page 18:11:56 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Diversity 18:12:09 It is: The OpenStack Foundation Board of Directors is committed to fostering an inclusive and welcoming place for all people to collaborate to drive innovation and design cutting-edge data center capabilities. This Work Group is chartered to determine what actions are required to fulfill this commitment 18:12:11 Megan Rossetti - Comcast 18:12:37 nice, I like the mission statement 18:12:43 We had some healthy discussion at the summit board meeting in Vacouver and received some feedback from the board about tweaking the charter 18:12:54 There has been some discussion about how we define diversity, would be interested in discussing that here 18:13:00 kavit: +1 18:13:09 also the Diversity wiki doesnt have the charter that was discussed 18:13:21 i am trying to find it, just a minute 18:13:46 diversity - eliminate bias on the basis of age, race, creed, color, sex, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, marital status, and socioeconomic status. 18:13:54 M-W.com: diversity, noun, : the quality or state of having many different forms, types, ideas, etc. : the state of having people who are different races or who have different cultures in a group or organization 18:13:59 that's the general definition 18:14:14 and all sexes 18:14:42 is the focus on this specficially for cultural diversity and gender diversity primarily? what are the goals? 18:14:47 I think, for Open source, we need to expand diversity to include QA engnineers, UX, Ops, etc. They are kinda ghetto-ized, too 18:14:54 for me diversity is really about getting a variety of *thought* more than anything; so that any problem has lots of diferent viewpoints and experiences coloring the outcome 18:15:05 I pasted the proposed charter into etherpad: #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/OpenStackDiversity.1 18:15:23 rainya: +1 18:15:36 sorry lost formatting :( 18:16:03 maybe paste it in here also if people arent opposed to a small wall of text :) 18:16:04 and that variety comes from different disciplines (engineers, devs, qa, ux, ops, product managers) as well as cultural and gender backgrounds 18:16:50 "while finding answers to our most pressing challenges" - are we talking about openstack's most pressing challenges? if so, what are those? 18:17:24 rainya: +1 18:17:27 ie, where are we falling short? 18:17:39 nikiacosta that is what we are hoping to define 18:17:41 rainya: +1 18:17:44 is there an opinion that openstack is not welcoming enough? or that we're not welcoming to women? 18:18:03 or people of other countries? 18:18:13 Openstack Challenges to me seem to be information to the masses as to what it does. They know about what the name is but what does it do, has been what I see out here... 18:18:14 Some things we have seen: not enough women, not enough geographical diversity 18:18:35 gotcha. so what are the goals? 18:18:36 eglute: +1 18:18:46 not that I know of but I think we should try to make it known that we are welcoming to all 18:18:49 what is the general ratio of women to men in tech? 18:18:52 QA from the QA discipline is different from what OS QA is. The ones that turn up tend to get very frustrated 18:18:58 broadly speaking, and this is probably an overall tech statement; diversity tends to be lacking in the areas including including race, color, religion, sex,national origin, language, ancestry, age, disability, medical condition, genetic information, military andveteran status, marital status, pregnancy, gender, gender expression, gender identity, sexual orientationand other aspects 18:18:58 that should give us a baseline for the gender part 18:19:22 so the real question is what is it that we should be doing as project and community and foundation to encourage diversity 18:19:24 nikiacosta: eglute is that more of a 'diversity' challenges (ie. to invite more people that may be separated in one way or the other) or rather openstack's technical challenges (like features, containers, service chaining) ? 18:19:38 imadsousou +1 18:19:44 seems to me we want to be welcoming to all, but specific drivers are those aimed at women and "geographical" diversity 18:19:47 can we start with those? 18:19:58 I think there needs to be a clearly defined diversity policy, we have a transparency polcy. It makes sense to have a diversity policy so there is no place for ambiguity. We also need clarity with setting diversity goals. Each group inside the OpenStack ecosystem can Identify what those goals are for their group and we as the working group can help them with it 18:20:08 Outreach can extend beyond internships to talks at schools, weekend hackathons, etc 18:20:24 ... and to invite more diverse ppl to these challenges 18:20:25 imadsousou: at the end is not to have diversity by diversity, it's because diversity in talent isn't it? 18:20:27 nikiacosta, one of the things i have heard numerous times is getting started in OpenStack is difficult; jsut in the last week, a woman Quality Engineer and were talking about how she wants to get started, but the ramp up seems extreme and counter to her day job 18:20:37 that's addressable. 18:20:40 through programs. 18:20:41 i think 18:20:43 nikiacosta, +1 on women and geography 18:20:50 what about transgenders? 18:21:00 I don't think it should be just women 18:21:03 i consider a transgender woman a woman 18:21:24 if she ID's as female, then she is in my book 18:21:27 mentors are extremely important 18:21:36 I think a good start would be to focus on things to do (policies and otherwise) that would encourage under-represented 'segments' and then how do we retain these folks... what policies or otherwise to encourage this kind of retention 18:21:42 we can't boil the ocean. let's keep the scope narrow for programs that will address the most pressing issues. of course we want to be welcoming to everyone, but geographical and gender are at the top of the list, our focus shoudl be on those. 18:22:11 +1 nikiacosta 18:22:12 nikiacosta: +1 18:22:12 in order to really do anything, we first need metrics... 18:22:12 that doesn't mean the others aren't important. 18:22:19 +1 for mentoring 18:22:20 and while focusing on gender diversity, how to NOT persecute the men already in the community or who might want to join! 18:22:36 so do we have good metrics on diversity in the various openstack aspects 18:22:52 I think drivers should follow a broad set of guidelines and policies. Firstly we need a policy document that any openstack group can look at and ascertain where they are 18:22:58 rainya: +1 18:22:58 +1 rainya! 18:23:10 I don't want to be mean girls. :( 18:23:18 yeah I agree with that completely 18:23:29 I have updated Etherpad with stats that lsell has prepared before vancouver summit 18:23:34 I see it way too often with diversity efforts! 18:23:36 Lots of good thoughts and disucssion. I'm wondering if we can ask a couple of folks to draft a diversity definition for this group that we can dicusss in a future meeting? 18:23:38 I think a good start is the stats from the OpenStack summit, where woman were what, 10% of the attendees? Do we have diversity stats on the members of the community? 18:23:38 imadsousou: There were some metrics mentioned on the number of women attending summit -- that's the only one I know of. barrett, are there more out there? 18:23:51 that's great eglute! starting on Line 55 18:23:53 I remember hearing 10% 18:24:00 that's the thing-- once you create sub-groups, you essentially are re-emphasizing the divide. challenge is to offer encouragement, support, programs, without it feeling devisive. 18:24:07 If we divide the work, mentors can be quickly applied to diverse people who want to participate. Metrics can be collected in parallel 18:24:38 TamaraJohnston, the panel i was on for diversity in vancouver cited 9%, up from Paris by 4% i believe? 18:24:55 imadsousou: yes, I think there is more data we can mine. 18:24:56 but do we have metrics on things as contributions? 18:25:01 • 10% - Vancouver, May 2015 18:25:01 • 10% - Paris, Nov 2014 18:25:01 • 9% - Atlanta, may 2014 18:25:01 • 7% - Hong Kong, Nov 2013 18:25:03 Yeah i forget if it was 4 or 5% 18:25:12 I think its a great start to have the summit metrics... I saw these - great 18:25:15 this is saying it was 10%? 18:25:17 ty eglute 18:25:23 interesting 18:25:25 http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/04/04/3422975/women-tech-outnumbered/ 18:25:34 I think we need the board to ratify the working group charter, we should try and get the language sorted for the charter so that the concerns raised by legal counsel and other board members are assauged. 18:25:38 imadsousou: a long shot but is it doable to get gender info from openstack Communit Member (when you register on openstack.org you select your gender) 18:25:42 line 145 in ethepad for statistics 18:25:42 Geographic Demographics 18:25:42 Vancouver Summit (May 2015) Attendee Demographics (5,600+ - updated count will be tallied on Monday night) 18:25:42 • 75% - North America 18:25:43 • 12% - Europe 18:25:43 eglute: Where are those stats from? 18:25:44 • 10% - APAC 18:25:45 • 2% - Middle East 18:25:46 • 1% - Latin America 18:25:59 https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/OpenStackDiversity.1 starts on Line 55, lsell prepared them 18:26:02 kavit: +1 18:26:05 amandap lsell has provided them 18:26:34 kavit, what was some of the feedback on the charter in Vancouver? 18:26:42 So if men outnumber women 7 to 3, we should aim for at least 70% to 30% split amongst attendees, yes? 18:26:56 nikiacosta that would be great 18:27:08 feedback we received on the charter: too broad 18:27:09 I think the location of the summits also drive ability to attend. 18:27:25 rainya, there was general agreement on the need for the workgroup, the feedback was mostly about the operational scope of the charter 18:27:29 imadsousou, we could check with stefano and see if there are contribution numbers avaialble by gender? and geography? as well as company 18:27:43 It seems like we need to agree on a definition of Diversity to help guide our analysis and data mining - do people agree? 18:27:44 nikiacosta +1 18:27:50 nikiacosta agree on attendance, the foundation moves them from place to place on purpose, to increase geographical representation 18:27:53 yes 18:27:58 unlikely this is true -- I've seen many other surveys... and frankly, you do not need a survey just walk around any high tech enviorenemt 18:28:00 @barrett- agreed. we need goals. 18:28:03 we need to be more specific and have no legal ambiguity about the mandate of the working group 18:28:07 barrett yes 18:28:09 lets start with some action items. 18:28:35 #action rainya to check with stefano and see if there are contribution numbers avaialble by gender? and geography? as well as company 18:28:36 Except that every second summit is in North America? 18:28:44 eglute, imho first item on the list should be about getting the charter approved by the BoD in the July F2F 18:28:49 nikiacosta: I think the definition or scope will enable use to set goals -- and then define programs to achieve them 18:28:57 first a heads up to the group that stefano is no longer with the foundation. he will still be an active part of the community at another ecosystem company, but just FYI 18:28:58 kavit agree we need that too! 18:28:59 eglute: +1 18:29:05 +1 18:29:05 shameless plug, we are hiring community managers :) 18:29:11 haha 18:29:11 +1 18:29:17 lol 18:29:21 so can we agree that geographic and gender diversity top the list? 18:29:22 lsell thank you for the update 18:29:23 is there a third? 18:29:27 second, my understanding unfortunately is that we do not currently have visibility into contributor diversity and gender data 18:29:37 +1 on geographic and gender diversity top the list 18:29:59 ok, i remove my first action item 18:30:03 race 18:30:08 so let's focus on these. we can include a statement that openstack welcomes anyone regardless of x,y,z... 18:30:11 can you explain what you mean about geographic diversity? 18:30:13 imadsousou: +1 18:30:15 +1 18:30:21 more contributors from other parts of the world 18:30:31 more attendee representation from other countries. 18:30:36 W.r.t. geographic diversity: number of attendees from Africa? Below the line? i guess a list of "top attending" geographical areas is exactly the opposite of what we need, we need a list of non-attending countries, isn't it? or low number attending countries? 18:30:37 ok 18:30:51 Are we in agreement on these 3 elements for our diviersity effort: Geographic, Gender, Race? 18:30:54 yes 18:30:56 So, part of the problem is that many of the local events around the world don't make it to the OpenStack Community list of events 18:30:57 do we have visiblity into where downloads are happening? 18:30:58 yes 18:30:58 yes 18:30:59 also, the board actually agreed that the working group should get started as it would be bring individual actions back for approval if necessary 18:30:59 yes 18:30:59 by country? 18:31:00 Race is a big one in my eyes 18:31:35 Race is big for me 18:31:43 i wonder if the linux foundation or other open source groups have stats 18:31:43 we can discuss geographic by region or country... I like region: North America, Europe, etc... 18:31:46 to use as a baseline 18:31:51 we need somethign to mirror 18:31:55 and we can do a lot through the volunteers here and staff efforts without holding things up for board meetings 18:32:06 #agree The priority elements for our diviersity efforts now will be: Geographic, Gender, Race 18:32:11 imadsousou, regions make more sense, I would agree with that 18:32:13 Well, MIT has tons of stats and it's 48% female for undergrad 18:32:15 lsell, thank you for the information! good to know; will see what other options there are to mine the data 18:32:37 And what is our average age of openstack founation member? 18:32:45 I can get you the MIT stats. They break it down by major, too. 18:32:53 IMO, probably will take a while for undergrads to enter the job market 18:32:56 what's the national average? 18:33:29 Is the next action to get volunteers to take on defining the terms for each item? 18:33:39 nikiacosta, what national average are you asking about? lost track 18:33:41 barrett i think so 18:33:43 MIT has been 45+% female for ten years. 18:33:51 MIT is amazing. 18:34:00 yes 18:34:01 few schools have programs that recruit women as effectively. 18:34:16 our avearge should be in line by national averages. 18:34:22 The school has the stats going back to the beginning. We can see what there stats were for grads 5 years out, ten, etc 18:34:25 you could do it by region 18:34:33 Has religion been put in to the mix? Multitasking and not sure I saw anything about it. 18:34:43 FYI-- would regions be N. america, europe, asia/s. pacific, etc? 18:34:46 no it hasn't, religion and age are other good ones 18:34:50 OK - volunteers for defining these terms? With an eye to the next step being data analysis.... 18:34:58 me me me! 18:35:01 Religion has not been focused on, but itis in the mix 18:35:18 rainya: which one do you want to take? 18:35:40 Race is a hot debate that (based on my facebook feed) is creating a lot of let's just say "passionate posts" 18:35:53 yup absolutely 18:35:55 "national averages" wow. 18:35:55 One of the issues with the diversity proposal we had was that it was too broad. we need to focus first on the top, for our diversity efforts now will be: Geographic, Gender, Race 18:36:09 barrett, is there another one besides "diversity" ? are we looking to define geographic deviersty / gender deviersity / race diversity? 18:36:18 nikiacosta: do you want to take race? 18:36:18 you might want to take a wider view. 18:36:22 i think geograhaphic goals will also create racial diveresity without saying "racial diversity" 18:36:27 NO! 18:36:28 eglute: +1 18:36:46 ozstacker we did, and were told we were overreaching, that it would be too broad and nothing would get done. 18:36:50 Creating programs to attract people by race is not a good idea. 18:37:06 nikiacosta, sorry, what do you object to? 18:37:11 Why is that not a good idea ? 18:37:14 rainya: Its the 3 areas of: Geographic, Gender, Race 18:37:15 eglute: i think tristan (aka ozstacker) is picking on the use of the term “national” specifically 18:37:18 future exploration should certainly be on age and disability as well 18:37:20 too many people talking at once 18:37:20 It's too much like quotas 18:37:24 jbryce thanks 18:37:29 national pertains to numbers in the US only, I think we should look past that 18:37:33 i am writing a couple notes / thoughts in the etherpad; i started with gender and geographic and then hit a wall at race 18:37:34 Because it's difficult to create programs aimed at racial groups without potential backlash. 18:37:41 it's a sensitive topic. 18:37:48 so very sensitive 18:37:49 +100 for age ;-) 18:37:59 eglute: Agreed, but it's nice to see a large group interested 18:38:09 amandap: +1, I think we can look to other aspects of diversity in the future... 18:38:09 Cultural diversity? okay 18:38:12 Race? not so much 18:38:12 yes 18:38:15 thats fine 18:38:32 Barrett: "Top areas of focus for diversity: GENDER (male to female ratio); GEOGRAPHIC (downloads, contribution, and attendance by country; what countries / regions have low or NO representation?); CULTURE" 18:38:59 how do we define "cutlural diversity" goals without leaving folks out? 18:39:00 amandap i am excited to see so many interested people! we need all kinds of diversity, and there should be no exclusion/discrimination based on anything 18:39:36 Geograpic diversity, gender divesity. 18:39:41 So, Class is one of the really biggest issues. If you look at class, you will find most of the other issues embedded 18:39:42 rainya: barrett "male to female ratio" isn't sitting well with me, can it be a more inclusive metric? 18:39:43 I think we should work towards a diveristy policy, it should be one of our proposals to the BoD to approve 18:40:06 nerd to non-nerd ;-) 18:40:23 who can help with the diversity policy? 18:40:26 I'm thinking ahead. Programs. Programs aimed at geograhpies and women/transgender, great! 18:40:30 amandap, barett: agreed! perhaps we can work on it through email? 18:40:34 taking volunteers to help define diversity policy 18:40:36 programs aimed at cultural diversity? hard! 18:40:37 kavit: Agree, think we should consider creating diversity statements to add to the Code of Coonduct 18:40:38 I can help with it 18:40:53 thank you ShillaSaebi anyone else? 18:40:56 Male to female to trans/cisgender? 18:40:58 eglute: i think that's what i thought I was signing up for with definitions so i will! 18:41:03 rainya: barrett That would be great 18:41:12 buddy program!!!!! 18:41:13 eglute: I can help 18:41:16 amandap: Yes, we can do that. Do you want to lead the discussion to define Gender diversity for this group? 18:41:31 programs offered in places where breaking the barriers is happening, not so hard? 18:42:02 volunteer list at line 49 in etherpad, thanks rainya 18:42:25 barrett: Sure, that should an interesting one :) 18:42:26 #action rainya amandap to collaboration on diversity defintions for GENDER, GEOGRAPHIC, CULTURE 18:42:41 #action rainya amandap to collaboration on diversity defintions for GENDER, GEOGRAPHIC, CULTURE 18:42:47 pretend I spell more gooder than i do 18:42:54 Is there a way to update membership to include "tags" for openstack foundation members? And ability to make your tags available for others to search? 18:43:06 @rainya lol 18:43:08 nikiacosta, you're solutioning i think :) 18:43:11 kavit can you lead the diversity definion work? 18:43:28 i am. because i want to make sure that the things we focus on are actionble. 18:43:29 nikiacosta, i could be wrong, but it feels like it might be! LOL 18:43:31 thank you kavit 18:43:37 eglute, aye aye! 18:43:45 You really need to establish the policy first and then set measurable objectives. 18:44:13 ozstacker can you help with the policy? 18:44:31 kavit: When do you think you can review a draft with this group? 18:44:34 "cultural diversity" from my point of view is not specific enough, it is hard to focus on specific actions / programs. additionally the community consists of thousands of participants from all continents and hundreds of countries. an external person probably would not consider the OS community having issues with "cultural diversity" i guess 18:44:37 sure 18:44:40 thanks! 18:44:41 I don't think you can set cultural diversity objectives objectively. 18:44:47 ozstacker, I have put that an action item 18:44:52 np 18:45:05 @gpruessmann - that's what i'm sayin! 18:45:08 And next step is have a meeting that is 12 hours different to this one, and include others before deciding on _anything_ 18:45:31 is there any group/company/foundation that y'all think are doing it "right"? 18:46:09 #action kavit ozstacker ShillaSaebi rainya amandap nikiacosta to work on defining diversity policy 18:46:10 gender and geography are kind of easy. culture is hard. 18:46:12 eglute, barrett: time check; there are 15 minutes left 18:46:15 mit;-) 18:46:17 k 18:46:27 OK - we have a team formed to work on the diversity definition. Can we move to the next agenda topic? 18:46:35 barrett, I am available at the earliest. We can do it in 2 weeks. needs to before the next f2f BoD meeting 18:46:42 nikiacosta, Yeah, Telstra seems to be onto it. 18:46:56 barrett agreed, i would like to talk about meeting frequency/times 18:47:19 nikiacosta, ozstacker was right, telstra have done well 18:47:27 kavit: agree, needs to be done well before next BoD. Think we'd actually like to have an analysis complete against the definition for the July BoD meeting 18:47:36 Anyone here from Telstra? 18:47:37 niki: a couple of companies, but I can't remember the names at the moment 18:47:39 #topic meeting frequency and time 18:48:05 once every two or three weeks? 18:48:06 They might be if it wasn't 4am here :) 18:48:21 since this is our first meeting, please list your time zone. would you attend meetings if they were at alternate times? 18:48:24 eglute CST 18:48:27 Speaking of fostering geographical diversity ;-) 18:48:28 CST 18:48:29 I wonder if we want to have weekly meetings, given the interest, and alternate them between US/EMEA-friendly and APAC/Japan-friendly? 18:48:32 rainya CST 18:48:38 CET 18:48:46 Kavit IST 18:48:52 PST 18:48:54 PT and yes 18:48:55 I think we should nominate leads for geographies. 18:49:09 EST yes 18:49:09 Maybe fortnightly, but flip the time 12 hours. Then we'll see who's dedicated attending both :) 18:49:12 CST 18:49:16 CST 18:49:19 cst 18:49:24 UTC -7/8 18:49:36 Rockyg, what is that in nont UTC? EST? 18:49:50 EDT really 18:49:57 EDT 18:50:08 ozstacker, what's your timezone? 18:50:11 nikiacosta how would leads for geographies work? what do you have in mind? 18:50:16 PST But doing the offset from utc is the best. People don't know all the abreviations 18:50:34 Rockyg, agreed! I'm making a note in the attedee list and will translate :D 18:50:39 PDT = utc-7 PST=utc-8 18:50:44 he is AEST and I am IST (UTC + 1000 and UTC + 0530 respectively) 18:50:48 As an example, this meeting time is 5 to 6pm on a Friday night in Western Europe. Who in their right mind would want to attend at that time. 18:51:05 ozstacker: nerds 18:51:05 rainya Here it's 4am 18:51:31