15:00:55 #startmeeting DefCore 15:00:55 Meeting started Wed Jul 1 15:00:55 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglute. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 15:00:58 The meeting name has been set to 'defcore' 15:01:00 o/ 15:01:02 o/ 15:01:04 o/ 15:01:17 0/ 15:01:19 hello everyone! if you have not done so, raise your hand! 15:01:21 o/ 15:01:21 o/ 15:01:27 o/ 15:01:31 o/ 15:01:33 o/ 15:01:35 #chair zehicle 15:01:36 * zehicle wonders what 0/0 is 15:01:36 Current chairs: eglute zehicle 15:01:53 o/ 15:01:55 no more cookies 15:02:18 hogepodge, is on route to airport - should be online shortly 15:02:30 just had bfast w/ him. 15:02:41 * eglute feels left out 15:02:48 * zehicle feels like it's a good day for Greek salads 15:02:48 #link http://www.cnet.com/news/siri-gives-a-little-snark-if-you-ask-her-to-divide-0-by-0/ 15:03:00 #topic mid-cycle planning 15:03:09 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.MidCycle 15:03:13 eglute, sorry. was going to offer you to join. :/ 15:03:27 * purp waves at Malini who he hasn't seen in quite a while. 15:03:35 o/ 15:03:38 assumed you did not want to make the drive for 8:30 start 15:03:41 IBM is hosting our MidCycle! And getting us lunch! 15:03:58 zehicle: no worries! 15:04:14 purp: I am probably the 'other' malini. we get mistaken :) 15:04:32 malini: Ahhh. Well, I'll wave at you anyway. =] 15:04:47 * markvoelker notes that the nearest hotel to IBM is Aloft, but there are other options closeby as well 15:04:53 if you are attending in person and have dietary restrictions, please fill this out: #link http://doodle.com/gsdq767e7chmc8in 15:05:05 * malini waves back @ purp 15:05:12 thank you markvoelker good to know! 15:05:33 the IBM location is not close to the Board Meeting. if you are going to both, it's much better to stay downtown and drive against traffic 15:05:50 austin traffic is the worst 15:06:10 eglute: So what's the plan? Show up at the front desk at oh-dark-thirty and ask for Vince? =) 15:06:16 * purp chuckles at eglute's traffic assertion. 15:06:16 we could arrange a carpool (I live near the city) depending on # of people 15:06:45 * zehicle orders redbulls for DefCore all-nighter 15:06:49 markvoelker yes! the rest of us will show up there at 9 am or so. actually, we need to decide when we want to start and plan agenda 15:06:54 o/ 15:07:10 #topic agenda for Flag 6 15:07:32 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.MidCycle Agenda ideas 15:07:35 For the Mid-Cycle, we will need to get the names of all the attendees as I will have to get everyone entered in for our security. 15:07:36 clearly, we are going to talk about midcycle :) 4 weeks from now 15:07:55 I'd like to talk about network component & capabilities to see if we can get them for 2015.07 15:08:11 vinceb: we will work on the list 15:08:36 +1 on talking about capabilities and working on agenda for midcycle next meeting 15:08:37 OK, that would be great 15:08:52 any other changes to the agenda? 15:08:57 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.6 15:09:02 o/ 15:09:04 I will work on the logistics and send out an email 15:09:05 markvoelker: I will confirm on the logistics at IBM ... but usually you will show up at the lobby and ask for Vince ... Vince and I should be at the lobby early 15:09:10 thank you vinceb 15:10:13 i am ok with agenda zehicle 15:10:21 #topic midcycle 15:10:37 o/ 15:10:43 great, thanks folks. Agenda-wise I don't think anyone but me has added anything to the etherpad yet. 15:10:48 While I'm happy to monopolize all the conversation =), maybe let's have an AI for this week for folks to get their ideas posted so we can discuss next time? 15:11:13 markvoelker, I edited late 15:11:29 markvoelker same here 15:12:38 next topic? 15:12:45 or more on agenda/midcycle? 15:13:03 #action Please post midcycle agenda ideas to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.MidCycle so we can settle agenda soonish 15:13:04 midcycle 15:13:14 #topic midcycle 15:13:56 eglute: I think we just covered midcycle. =) Move on to Tokto summit submissions? 15:14:08 s/Tokto/Tokyo/ 15:14:16 right now the calendar invite is for 48 hours of midcycle fun. I will send out updated invite when we agree on hours we want to be there 15:14:17 I think we'll need to set a more time oriented agenda 15:14:24 markvoelker yes i am ok 15:14:30 zehicle agreed. 15:14:40 tokyo topic? 15:14:42 may be worth having an interactive meeting to work on agenda 15:14:48 hold on... 15:14:51 ok 15:14:56 zehicle i think that is a good idea 15:15:10 we could do that as a subgroup and then review 15:15:18 +1 15:15:28 +1 15:15:38 o/ 15:15:46 how many people want to participate in the agenda for the f2f? 15:16:00 zehicle: me 15:16:15 #action eglute zehicle to schedule a subgroup meeting for discussing midcycle agenda 15:16:29 I think it needs to be tomorrow. 15:16:37 likely 10 central or 3 central. 15:16:38 i can do tomorrow 15:17:02 10 AM CST and 3 PM CST tomorrow work for me 15:17:09 Vinceb: me 15:17:18 * markvoelker notes that that means you all have about 24 hours to get that last action item done 15:17:21 ok, we need quick vote on 10 or 3. Please reply 15:17:40 +1 10 AM and 3 PM 15:17:44 3 CDT works for me 15:17:53 Either should be ok for me 15:18:12 3 might be marginally better 15:18:28 ok, that's four people OK at 3. sold. 15:18:50 #action eglute send out invite for 3 PM Thursday meeting 15:18:59 ready for tokyo? 15:19:09 markvoelker, some of that may end up being part of the agenda 15:19:18 10 CDT best for me, 3 CDT has a conflict 15:19:40 I can cancel the conflict 15:20:02 hogepodge ok, let us know if you need to find a new time, can do it after the meeting as well 15:20:21 #topic Tokyo summit planning 15:20:52 we have about 2 weeks to submit, has anyone already submitted session proposals about defcore/refstack/interop/related? 15:21:33 eglute: not yet but I've been talking with some Nova/Neutron folks about a talk on the networking situation w/respect to interop and DefCore 15:21:48 i was thinking it would be useful to have a DefCore 101 session, if it gets accepted 15:22:01 what do you think? 15:22:04 I'll think something 15:22:13 what's the community interest in defcore? what would they want discussed? 15:22:29 eglute: we have not submitted for Refstack yet ... but planning to at least submit one session about Refstack testing update 15:22:48 We need to reach a wider community to start getting test results in. 15:22:52 zehicle: this would be for all the people that are hearing about defcore for the first time 15:22:53 I could see a venn diagram type discussion 15:23:09 I understand but those are generally not voting for sessions 15:23:14 so we don't generally get them accepted 15:23:44 one of the challenges with how we structure the conference 15:23:47 zehicle: a primary area of interest for the community is interop. Talks on hot interop topics (images, networking, etc) would go over well I think. 15:23:47 catherine_d|1: can you add it on etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.6 15:24:10 that's what I mean w/ venn as a topic 15:24:12 eglute: will do 15:24:19 we'd want concrete examples 15:24:21 "The Interoperabe API" 15:24:56 "Interoperable OpenStack Clouds: Just Add DefCore" 15:24:57 hogepodge, something like Unbreaking the Interoperable API? 15:25:27 I'd like to be able to discuss the specific cases if possible 15:25:47 zehicle: can you give a brief example of a case you'd like to discuss? 15:25:54 ohhh.... "square peg, defcore hole" 15:26:00 https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tokyo-defcore-talks 15:26:05 case study of getting clouds defcore certified? 15:26:10 Collaboration point for talks #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tokyo-defcore-talks 15:26:15 purp, we're talking about Glance v2 and the issues it causes. 15:26:29 it would be good to spend 10 minutes talking why it's an issue and the pros and cons 15:26:36 that's real interop meat 15:26:46 +1 15:27:03 if we have 4 top issues, then we've got a talk 15:27:10 glance v1->v2 and the n+1 ways to run a network are interoperability issues we face right now 15:27:10 +1 on interop 15:27:58 others? 15:28:12 we could review some flags 15:28:21 and what's causing them to surface 15:28:32 I know there are some interop issues hiding in the flags 15:28:43 from that perspective, we don't have to lock down 4 now. 15:28:52 we can agree that we've got 2 solid and a source for more 15:29:00 and then craft the topic around that 15:29:12 multiple speakers? 15:29:36 a couple of PTLs could make it *very* interesting. Along with Monty 15:29:54 true but I dont want to pull them out of the summit 15:30:02 rockyg: already spoke with Kyle Mestery and Russell Bryant about the networking topic. May have them co-present. 15:30:03 Ops vs Devs What we have/what we need for interop 15:30:10 the events are so overlapped we need to be careful of their time 15:30:59 also, I would not expect to drive the discussion at the session - it's not the best forum 15:31:14 we need to have a hook to get people to vote AND also keep topical for n00bs 15:31:46 +1 zehicle 15:32:12 then again, we could just throw out "DEFCORE IS BROKEN AND ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!" 15:32:23 +100 15:32:25 Heh. 15:32:49 "You'll never believe this one weird trick you can do with defcore" 15:32:53 lol 15:33:02 polishing my blame-caster 15:33:07 * eglute thinks defcore should have own summit track 15:33:38 * eglute interop summit track would be awesome 15:33:39 The defcore dunking booth -- then have a devops throw questions at nova/neutron/glance experts 15:33:41 * markvoelker notes that it's 33 past the hour so maybe time to move on.... 15:33:52 +1 markvoelker 15:34:14 I think we've got something good enough to run 15:34:29 Actually, Game show. How do you do "x" across a couuple of public cloud providers and let the devs answer 15:34:41 #action eglute and zehicle to draft topic and submit 15:34:56 +1 on resubmitting the game show concept 15:35:01 +1 game 15:35:08 time to talk about capabilities? 15:35:22 #topic 2015.07 capabilities 15:35:49 we do need the board to approach an updated guideline based on the subcaps 15:36:11 I'd also like us to get 2015.04 off the books because of all the flags 15:36:22 reorganization or subcaps, should be pretty straight forward. We have flags that will cause rebase issue, but not a big deal 15:36:37 both really 15:36:47 2015.05 has msot of the same flags though. Minus about two I think. 15:36:54 Or will have once we finish patching. 15:37:03 ah, ok. sigh 15:37:22 * zehicle takes that as a sign that we made good decisions quickly in 2015.04 15:37:36 The trouble with a new spec every month is that there's no time to get much fixed between specs. Next spec we'll have a much longer cycle. 15:38:01 Speaking of.... 15:38:28 zehicle: this actually isn't 2015.07 we're working on next, right? It's 2016.01? We name Guidelines based on when they're approved by the Board 15:38:35 (per D4 in 2015A) 15:38:40 markvoelker, the pace is hard if we make major changes. so far it's been very incremental 15:38:56 markvoelker: if we merged glance v1 flagging without discussion I will be unhappy. It's a fairly serious issue. v2 is not interoperable, and I firmly believe that the majority of installations out there depend on v1 15:38:58 zehicle: no vendor will pass the spec without some flagged tests (at the minimum those that are flagged because of Tempest bugs) 15:38:59 at the last meeting, we said there would be a new one to approach 15:39:20 +1 on some flags 15:39:23 hogepodge: Sure, but we've been discussing that quite a lot I think 15:39:31 the idea was that we would have a process for flags worked out before we put them back in 15:39:48 board should approve 1) new capabilities groups 2) new schema 15:40:04 small changes but would like to keep that in flow 15:40:20 more importantly, I'd like to start the process of getting a NETWORKING component going 15:40:39 so, we'd need tests -> capabilities for that. at least 1 15:41:00 zehicle: see item in today's agenda. =) 15:41:00 we need to component in place so we can think about having it in the platform (or not having it) 15:41:09 yy 15:41:11 :Figuring out Networking (and other important areas of overlap): 15:41:20 they are conflated 15:41:36 since we have to figure out a window for the guideline changes 15:41:45 happy to hold the details until next 15:41:46 zehicle: where networking is concerned, I think we just need to put a patch up and score capabilities 15:41:52 We haven't actually done that yet 15:42:01 but wanted to make sure that we understood the timing to get it into a guideline 15:42:15 markvoelker: yes, I guess I'd like to see us and the community working towards a decision on that. Some of the comments about "no devs so no v2 proxy in nova" and "it's a glance problem not a nova problem" make me think that there is no effort to make v2 a serious api, unlike what we've seen in cinder and keystone. 15:42:24 It may very well turn out that nothing meets DefCore Criteria, but if we do the scoring then we'll know where things are falling short, what's closest, and what has to be done to get something over the bar 15:42:43 +1 on scoring networking 15:43:08 networking we can score and start putting forward as advisory. Also need to decide if we want to try and use the nova proxy and dump nova-net and go all in on neutron. 15:43:18 zehicle: I've already been talking with some folks from nova/neutron about potentially scorable things, so I'm happy to take a stab at something we can score 15:43:30 markvoelker, I'd like to get something there 15:43:35 so we can start the process going on it 15:43:51 who can help with scoring networking? we need to get networking as Advisory before the next board meeting 15:43:53 hogepodge, +1000 I agree. And rumor has it it's Ooh, shiny vs. the drudgery of making old stuff actually work 15:43:54 markvoelker: I'm glad you're engaging them on this. Can we get either of them to the midcycle? 15:44:02 we should have something in to start the discussion (works like a motion in Roberts' rules) 15:44:21 markvoelker: I can provide test data ... 15:44:27 hogepodge: seems unlikely this late in the game. I can ask. John already said he couldn't hop across the poond. 15:44:45 markvoelker: virtual attendance then? 15:44:52 at best, we'd have it as advisory for 2015.07 15:44:58 hogepodge: More likley. 15:45:21 At least for targeted discussions. If there's a good time that works with their schedule we can identify it so they're not up at 2 AM :-D 15:45:31 that would then help drive deeper discussion in Tokyo 15:45:44 zehicle: 2015.07 is targeted for Liberty OpenStack release? 15:46:07 no 15:46:19 zehicle: catherine_dl1: per 2015A it should go up for approval in January and cover L, K, J 15:46:37 markvoelker, +1. L is not out until Tokyo 15:46:48 See timeline at bottom of today's etherpad 15:46:50 so, 2016.01 would have L 15:47:08 zehicle: wait, what? 15:47:19 ideally, we don't have a 2015.10 BUT I suspect that we will need it 15:47:20 2015A says we introduce a draft at the summit, and it gets approved 3 months later 15:47:44 right - that means that 2015.next would be presented at the summit 15:47:49 right. 2016-1 15:47:55 zehicle: ok, gotcha 15:47:58 with a target of approval the the BoD mid cycle 15:48:14 BUT, I'd expect us to recommend a 2015.10 guideline 15:48:46 zehicle: I'd be -1 on doing a 2015.10 guideline. CAn't think why we would need it. Iterating on specs that rapidly doens't foster interoperability. 15:48:53 otherwise, any network changes will not surface as ADVISORY until 2016.01 and take 6 more months 15:49:07 E.g. we have folks certified aginast a while smattering of different Guidelines b/c we keep introducing new ones. 15:49:13 good topic for the midcycle 15:49:21 markvoelker, there are pros and cons 15:49:53 zehicle: personally I think it's unlikely that we'll have networking included in 2016.01 unless we change DefCore Criteria. 15:49:55 I agree we should not rush but we also need to respond as we discover issues right now 15:50:05 So I'm not real worried about making it advisory before then. 15:50:15 markvoelker: zehicle: I see us in a period of growing pains right now. If we do the right thing we should see much more stability a year from now. 15:50:19 markvoelker, it's possible to consider it as a component (not platform) 15:50:37 the original criteria did not anticipate having components 15:50:40 Even if we consider it as a Component, the Criteria still apply though 15:50:51 we may have to revise that to take components into account 15:50:59 I don't see it being more than a few tests/ basic capabilities for a while 15:51:06 markvoelker, yes! but "widely adopted" has a different meaning 15:51:16 which is unfortunately very tricky to handle 15:51:20 I can't see it being a platform for quite a while 15:51:28 when we switch from components to platform 15:51:32 * eglute notes we have only 9 min left 15:51:59 this was the discussion that I wanted to drive for this meeting 15:52:04 so I'm good w/ that 15:52:09 zehicle: let's table this for midcycle. I don't see any other alternative meanings for the criteria we have approved. 15:52:17 still wondering if we have time to get some networking caps in 15:52:30 I think it probably warrants more discussion than 9 minutes will afford. =) 15:52:38 markvoelker, I hope that you are right because we put a lot of time into that 15:52:46 Needs to be from a tenant perspective to get network in soonish 15:53:16 and that's why these topics are mixed with faster guideline cycles 15:53:23 we always run out of time to talk about capability scoring. Looks like we might need a separate meeting for that 15:53:36 eglute: +1 15:53:39 eglute, ++ 15:53:54 eglute: tend to agree. See "capabilities review (or planning for it)" in today's agenda 15:54:01 I'd like us to schedule a weekly capabilities meeting. 15:54:10 hogepodge, ++ 15:54:14 hogepodge agree 15:54:24 hogepodge: I think at this stage an hour per week isn't enough, even if it's a separate meeting 15:54:31 We need to divide and conquor 15:54:38 (see etherpad) 15:54:47 I'd also nominate markvoelker to lead it (VanL did a fantastic job, but seems occupied with other concerns lately) 15:54:50 Link to etherpad, again? 15:54:59 rockyg: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.6 15:55:03 we need an owner for capabilites scoring. VanL used to own it, not sure if has the time this quarter 15:55:09 hogepodge, +1 15:55:31 eglute: hogepodge: perhaps let's confirm with VanL before we shift that responsibility? 15:55:38 The timing of the meetings has hit at weird times for me since Vancover, apologies, all 15:55:39 markvoelker, thanks 15:55:40 * hogepodge hopes markvoelker isn't bothered by him nominating him for hard job 15:55:44 I'm fine with markvoelker 15:55:45 hogepodge, as also have authority as DefCore secretary to run that 15:55:50 ohai VanL! 15:55:52 * hogepodge waves 15:56:10 I'm happy to do that 15:56:19 so, VanL, if you'll run it, you get to pick the time! 15:56:46 markvoelker: would two hours work? If we're short on time, nothing may chage that we can't do as much as we want, but that's a nice thing about targeting advisory 15:56:53 * markvoelker is happy to take on whatever level of responsibility will get things done 15:57:11 VanL: your thoughts? 15:57:17 hogepodge: well, my point was that I don't think we need to do all the scoring in a meeting 15:57:35 So, scoring should take less time 15:57:37 Instead, we need to divvy up scoring and submit patches that we can review *outside* of meetings, then use meeting time for contentious ones 15:57:50 and should be a lot easier than the first go-around. 15:58:00 we need to get coverage for the meeting next week 15:58:12 markvoelker: ok, is it something we can do in parallel? Have someone propose a todo list then collate responses? VanL had an idea of how to programatically (sp) score 15:58:18 * markvoelker sounds two minute warning 15:58:20 #topic chair for next meeting 15:58:28 The capabilities meetings over time tended to morph because we needed first to define what the capabilities were/are 15:58:35 hogepodge: sure, I'll send an ML message about it this week 15:58:47 I think that seems to be largely settled at this point w/ the new capabilities 15:58:49 It will be 3 AM for me during the next meeting, I nominate hogepodge and markvoelker to chair next week's meeting 15:59:07 since mordred and jeblair are big consumers of network api, I'd like their input. 15:59:14 and VanL: I'll drop you a note about ideas for improving scoring. I'm sure that's something you've thought a lot about, would love to pick your brain a bit. 15:59:26 I'm available and can (co)chair with markvoelker 15:59:33 I'll be here as well 15:59:33 thank you hogepodge 15:59:36 thanks 15:59:38 thank you markvoelker 15:59:45 * purp nudges on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/ to get it landed 15:59:46 markvoelker: Yes, let's grab some time. This week would be better, I have some ETO coming up 16:00:08 VAnL: will do. I think I'm relatively free tomorrow, so I'll verify and send you a note 16:00:33 markvoelker: VanL can you include me? I'm scheduled up tomorrow, but would like to join if I can (even if just to listen) 16:00:43 hogepodge: sure 16:01:15 ok, think we're overtime folks 16:01:22 we are out of time. any last minute comments or remarks? 16:01:26 I can't +2 that - it's mine 16:01:37 thanks for the nudge purp 16:01:40 I can if everyone else reviewed it 16:02:00 Continue in #openstack-defcore 16:02:00 * markvoelker will take a look 16:02:02 +1 if you reviewed it and are ok with it 16:02:03 markvoelker/hogpodge: I'm free except 10:30-11 and 1-2 (both central) 16:02:18 * markvoelker jots down VanL's schedule 16:02:46 #action everyone reviews https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/ 16:02:50 purp I have some issues with language and clarity (see last comment) 16:02:55 VanL: hogepodge: markvoelker: please include me ... have some note about the spread sheet we created earlier 16:02:58 #action eglute will merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/ after all reviews are in 16:03:11 catherine_dl1: will do 16:03:13 #endmeeting