22:00:16 <krotscheck> #startmeeting app_ecosystem_wg
22:00:17 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Aug  1 22:00:16 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:00:18 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
22:00:20 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'app_ecosystem_wg'
22:00:21 <krotscheck> Hello everyone!
22:00:23 <mbonell> hi :)
22:00:24 <uxdanielle> Hi!
22:00:32 <krotscheck> Agenda: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/2016_Aug_1_App_Ecosystem_Workgroup
22:01:09 <docaedo> Hello!
22:01:18 <Patifa> hey
22:01:18 <krotscheck> #topic Guadalajara App Hackathon
22:01:58 <mbonell> we are ready for our next training
22:02:01 <mbonell> My First Cloud-Aware App in OpenStack
22:02:03 <krotscheck> Judging from the updates to this agenda item, the pre-training is ongoing and going well?
22:02:12 <mbonell> very well
22:02:23 <krotscheck> \o/
22:02:24 <mbonell> the past training was a success
22:02:50 <Patifa> yay1
22:02:52 * shamail sneaks in
22:02:54 <carolbarrett> hi
22:02:57 <notmars> josh is ready
22:02:58 <mbonell> we expect the same number of attendes (~30)
22:03:29 <vhdiaz> hello
22:03:34 <mbonell> hi vic
22:03:59 <krotscheck> Excellent :). Patifa, you have a hypothesis you want to test?
22:04:47 <Patifa> Well, Piet needed to depriorize the research unfortunalety
22:05:10 <krotscheck> Internal reasons?
22:05:24 <reed> o/
22:05:25 <Patifa> he has other projects.
22:05:32 <Patifa> but I thought we could take a stab at creating a survey to use at the hackathon
22:05:46 <uxdanielle> Happy to help!
22:05:47 <Patifa> Create a survey target to hackathon participants to help identify pain points in their user journey that we could address in the future. Victor and I drafted the user journey in the hackathon: Architect app > Design/Prototype > Define API/services/SDK > Define language > Gather info/documentation > Prototype (Code>Deploy>Test - repeat)
22:05:47 <Patifa> Main question here is what are our hypothesis we want to confirm. I want to schedule a brainstorming session so that we can come up with some hypotheses to use to create the survey around.
22:06:19 <leong> o/
22:06:20 <Patifa> where do we think devs get stuck..
22:07:15 <Patifa> We can also target to Point participants to Piet’s survey during the even to help increase Openstack UX project app developer database. Quick and easy.
22:07:39 <mbonell> also, trainings can help us to create hypothesis
22:07:44 <krotscheck> Interesting. So this is the journey that the hackathon education is structured around?
22:08:14 <Patifa> There are not mandatory steps... but this are the step we believe they follow
22:08:54 <Patifa> There were others steps, but they were Hackathon specific so l left them out
22:09:07 <Patifa> Like "create biz presentation"
22:09:23 * krotscheck wonders if the process is a little more like: "I have requirements handed to my by a PM" -> "Google Stackoverflow" -> "Follow tutorial", with the language preassumed by the team you're working in.
22:09:51 <krotscheck> Either way, you want to brainstorm. At the hackathon? Sometime in the next few weeks?
22:10:06 <Patifa> In real life or hackathon mode?
22:10:23 <Patifa> I want to brainstorm this thrusday  ;P
22:10:33 <krotscheck> Ok, let's brainstorm this thursday :)
22:10:41 <krotscheck> Who would you like to participate?
22:10:46 <krotscheck> (real life)
22:11:30 <notmars> I'm not sure what we're talking about here
22:11:37 <Patifa> The truth is that we wont get "real life data" at the hackathon. But we may still find interesting pain points that might be true in real life too
22:11:41 <notmars> and I'm not sure what you mean by 'real life' :P
22:11:59 <krotscheck> notmars: Two different threads.
22:12:26 <krotscheck> So, the goal of this research is to identify the pain points encountered by devs when they try to build on OpenStack?
22:12:44 <Patifa> Yep.
22:13:05 <krotscheck> And on thursday you'd like to get people together to brainstorm a testable hypothesis, and then develop tests to check it?
22:13:15 <uxdanielle> Not sure I can contribute to dev pain points, but can help translate brainstorming items to survey questions
22:13:15 <Patifa> yep
22:13:43 <Patifa> Sure, and we need that skill uxdanielle :D
22:15:06 <Patifa> I'll send the invite to the mailing list. I wanted to check if you think this is a good opportinity too. use ~200 app developers in one place for 2 days playing with OpenStack to gather data.
22:15:29 <Patifa> possibly create a model to be replicated in other hackathons
22:15:34 <krotscheck> I think it might be. uxdanielle would know better on the best way to collect data.
22:15:48 <craigs> Knowing that they may be fairly new to OpenStack
22:15:57 <notmars_> I'd say yes in a more 'passive' capacity (like observing), but if we intervene during their hack...their bound to get frustrating at that activity :P
22:16:17 <notmars_> (frustrated, not frustrating)
22:16:32 <vhdiaz> exactly
22:16:33 <Patifa> we need to make it so it doesnt get in their way during the hackathon
22:16:37 <craigs> notmars: due to lack of time
22:16:49 <uxdanielle> That depends on what you want to know - we might learn more after the brainstorming about what that looks to be
22:17:11 <krotscheck> Sounds like there's enough interest. Patifa, how about you organize the call/irc meeting and we'll see what shakes out.
22:17:19 <krotscheck> Any disagreements before we move on?
22:17:57 <krotscheck> Ok, Any other questions about the Hackathon?
22:18:15 <krotscheck> Ok.
22:18:20 <krotscheck> #topic Barcelona
22:18:42 <Patifa> action: Patricia to organize brainstoming session around research during hackthon.
22:18:50 <krotscheck> mbonell has been in touch with speaker support. It looks like there will be a separate invite for WG-based space, is that correct?
22:18:56 <mbonell> yep
22:19:04 <mbonell> looks like I have to wait
22:19:06 <Patifa> #action: Patricia to organize brainstoming session around research during hackthon.
22:19:09 <krotscheck> #action: Patricia to organize brainstoming session around research during hackthon
22:19:10 <krotscheck> Oh
22:19:12 <krotscheck> :)
22:19:16 <mbonell> but they know about our training proposal
22:19:20 <Patifa> ;)
22:19:22 <krotscheck> Just to confirm, is this to see whether we can get space as well?
22:20:06 <mbonell> yep
22:20:13 <krotscheck> I'd like to put together a fishbowl session for SDK work during the summit. Given that both shade and the javascript sdk is under the infra banner, we can always request it via fungi, however if it's feasible for us to get space directly from the foundation that'd also be great.
22:20:26 <krotscheck> That' sindependent of your training piece though
22:20:53 <carolbarrett> They will put out the call for WG spaces after the schedule gets published on 8/25
22:21:05 <krotscheck> carolbarrett: Ah, excellent. Thank you.
22:21:38 <krotscheck> Are there any other WG-related sessions we'd like to propose?
22:21:57 <craigs> Besides the Birds of a feather and working session?
22:22:12 <notmars_> looks enough for me
22:22:31 <mbonell> +1
22:22:39 <krotscheck> Alright, I'll take that down in the notes.
22:23:13 <krotscheck> Does anyone think an SDK working session makes sense?
22:23:48 <craigs> Can you give me more on what you think would come out of it
22:24:02 <craigs> quality of SDK?  Narrowing what SDKs?
22:24:09 <krotscheck> Well, I know the Javascript sdk team wants to spend an hour or two hacking together.
22:24:45 <krotscheck> I also know that mordred is partial to doing the same with shade, but that'll likely be under the infra banner.
22:24:50 <craigs> well I think that would be kind of out of scope for us if it's a working session
22:24:52 <shamail> krotscheck: +1, I'd like to attend that session to discuss how we might be able to provide status information for SDKs in a centralized manner
22:25:12 <notmars_> I'd like that too in fact :P
22:25:23 <notmars_> that's an amazing idea for SDK devs
22:25:34 <krotscheck> Right, but it might not be App Eco WG related.
22:25:49 <krotscheck> Ya know, this seems like a dev-audience thing that I should take to the dev lsit
22:25:58 <craigs> something more up to date than https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/SDKs
22:26:00 <reed> shamail, what do you mean by "provide status information for SDKs in a centralized manner"?
22:26:15 <krotscheck> #action krotscheck: Start conversation on the dev list about the needs of SDK developers at the summit.
22:26:34 <shamail> App Eco is the only team I've seen put that info together
22:26:35 <reed> krotscheck, or the other way around, reach out to SDK devs
22:26:54 <shamail> Reed: which services are supported, last update, etc
22:26:55 <notmars_> I think that it's a gap that we should fill, wherever we put it
22:27:15 <reed> shamail, so like craigs said, a better wiki page?
22:27:24 <shamail> Yep!
22:27:27 <reed> a better page than the wiki, in other words :)
22:27:41 <craigs> +1
22:27:43 <shamail> We would also pull from that page for the operator tag
22:28:17 <shamail> (Didn't mean to hijack, sorry)
22:28:40 <krotscheck> The conversation's getting out of scope for Barcelona.
22:28:56 <krotscheck> So let's move on and put this in open discussion
22:29:01 * notmars_ still likes the SDK-dev hack session though :P
22:29:12 <krotscheck> One last thing: Voting for sessions is open! Go vote ! https://www.openstack.org/summit/barcelona-2016/vote-for-speakers/
22:29:29 <fungi> krotscheck: i'd be comfortable with an infra summit session for that, but cross-project might be even better still?
22:30:11 <krotscheck> #topic AppDev User study
22:30:37 <krotscheck> From earlier conversation, it sounds like the UX team is no longer focused on this, is that correct uxdanielle?
22:30:49 <Patifa> nope.. that is not correct
22:31:05 <uxdanielle> Not exactly, in fact it's probably our biggest focus now!
22:31:21 <Patifa> this study is still on going. what got deprioritised was the research AT THE HACKATON ;D
22:31:25 <krotscheck> Oh good!
22:31:32 * krotscheck likes clarification
22:31:41 <uxdanielle> Still no new participants on the schedule. Need to follow up with the qualified participant on scheduling and with Wendy on the progress of the recruit.
22:31:44 <uxdanielle> :)
22:31:49 <krotscheck> Action item: carolbarrett to reach out to walmart and cern contacts. How's that going?
22:31:58 * mordred waves to krotscheck
22:32:16 <mordred> ah - summit. yeah. happy to lurk/crash other thigns too
22:33:24 <Patifa> did piet send you the ask carolbarrett ?
22:33:58 <carolbarrett> I saw the ask on the ML
22:34:07 <Patifa> ok
22:35:45 <krotscheck> carolbarrett: ping? Any word from the foundation, cern, or walmart?
22:38:15 <Patifa> Shall we move on?
22:38:25 <krotscheck> Hrm, ok. Let's table that one for next week. uxdanielle, anything specific remaining on the survey, or can we move on?
22:39:29 <uxdanielle> Not from my end. I'll regroup with Piet about what we're going to do to find participants tomorrow. We were thinking of using the Foundation's list from the semi-annual survey but that's a big deal for us, so need to be sure once we pull that trigger
22:39:48 <krotscheck> Yeah, that would be. Keep us up to date on what you find.
22:39:50 <krotscheck> #topic AppDev Centric Ebook
22:39:54 <uxdanielle> (we can only send out one UX email per cycle so we need to plan to make sure we get everything in)
22:40:14 <krotscheck> #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/user-committee/2016-August/001150.html
22:40:41 <krotscheck> This is a new ask from the Enterprise WG- they'd like to put together an app-dev focused ebook from now through the summit.
22:41:54 <Patifa> Leong sent an email to the mailing list about it.
22:42:03 <krotscheck> They're asking for participants to help write individual sections.
22:42:28 <notmars_> I quite divided about this effort
22:42:34 <Patifa> and participate in the sprint they'll host at the summit
22:42:42 <krotscheck> I feel that individual experts on our team have quite a bit to contribute to that, however I don't want to speak on their behalf for the required time commitment.
22:42:58 <shamail> The sprint will be at the summit but we will be working on outline and get a head start before the summit
22:44:34 <krotscheck> I'm worried about content overlap between firstapp and the ebook.
22:44:42 * krotscheck guesses that that overlap could be a strength.
22:44:50 <notmars_> I'm in agreement with that krotscheck
22:45:00 <notmars_> (not the strength part :P)
22:45:07 <krotscheck> However if I had to choose one thing to focus on between the two, I'd focus on the one that you can google.
22:45:17 <notmars_> +1M
22:45:54 <krotscheck> Does anyone have questions for shamail ??
22:46:06 <shamail> The ebook is focused on architecture/design considerations for cloud apps.  We could probably point to or re-use firstapp as it makes sense
22:46:06 <craigs> FirstApp is likely to be in google, but the ebook content not likely
22:46:14 <craigs> I think it's fine to have both
22:46:19 <craigs> just make sure they don't conflict
22:46:46 <shamail> craigs: +1
22:47:11 <krotscheck> Well, the initial outline is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mR-M2ufn0lviyGughNdm0zFz9O6AlYFUSr3JKqoaiv4/edit
22:47:22 <mbonell> nice effort!
22:47:31 <Patifa> craigs +1
22:47:43 <krotscheck> The target is 20 pages.
22:47:51 <krotscheck> So, likely a launching off point.
22:47:59 <mbonell> there is a hugeeee lack about arch/design for cloud apps
22:48:34 <craigs> those have been covered in previous books
22:48:50 <krotscheck> 12 minute warning
22:49:13 <krotscheck> It doesn't seem like there's anything concrete to talk about on this other than "Hey, if you want to contribute, do!"
22:49:27 <shamail> The previous eBooks from EWG focused on why to choose cloud and how to get started
22:49:39 <shamail> That's fair krotscheck :)
22:50:20 <krotscheck> Alright, let's move on. shamail, if your team has sepcific asks from us, please don't hesitate to bring them up in the future.
22:50:28 <shamail> Thanks!
22:50:32 <krotscheck> #topic InterOp Challenge
22:50:44 <krotscheck> mbonell? DId you manage to get in touch with Brad Topol?
22:51:01 <shamail> What's the ask here?  I can help with this too
22:51:14 <mbonell> he han't response
22:51:20 <mbonell> not sure about his email address
22:51:29 <mbonell> I'll ping rocky
22:51:36 <krotscheck> Well, I think his IRC handle is topol.
22:51:46 <mbonell> :o
22:51:48 <mbonell> ok
22:51:49 <krotscheck> But yes, reach out to rockyg, :)
22:51:51 <shamail> mbonell: plz email me, I'll connect you
22:51:57 <shamail> I'm helping him
22:52:15 <mbonell> shamail: ok!
22:52:20 <krotscheck> #action shamail mbonell Get in touch with topol
22:52:27 <krotscheck> Next topic.
22:52:34 <krotscheck> #topic FirstApp Progress
22:52:49 <krotscheck> \o/ to everyone who got shade finished!
22:53:03 <mbonell> \o/
22:53:06 <notmars> yeay
22:53:09 <Patifa> yay!!!
22:53:29 <mbonell> fog is next, because is ready for test
22:53:51 * krotscheck did a quick once over on the firstapp content, summarized his thoughts here -> http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/user-committee/2016-August/001149.html
22:54:35 <craigs> Heat is still in progress, cleaning up html and need to do an autoscaling page
22:54:47 <craigs> then I will be ready to publish
22:55:03 <krotscheck> craigs++
22:55:21 <krotscheck> javascript is proceeding well, but we're still a few weeks out from landing keystone.
22:55:32 <krotscheck> A lot of plumbing to do.
22:55:35 <craigs> LOL thats kind of Key
22:55:51 <krotscheck> craigs-- for the pun.
22:55:53 <krotscheck> ;)
22:56:18 <krotscheck> Does anyone have any issues they need help with?
22:56:25 <krotscheck> Blockers, content, reviews, tests?
22:56:35 <craigs> nope
22:56:46 <mbonell> no
22:56:52 <krotscheck> Alright, next.
22:56:59 <krotscheck> #topic What is an App.
22:57:09 <krotscheck> Announcement made, patch landed against the app developer persona.
22:57:17 <krotscheck> Topic complete. Any questions?
22:57:44 <krotscheck> Cool! Last, open discussion!
22:57:49 <krotscheck> #topic Open Discussion
22:58:46 <krotscheck> shamail, you expressed an interest in having more information on what SDK's are available.
22:58:50 * krotscheck agrees.
22:59:07 * krotscheck will check with the docs team on the best place to put a summary page.
22:59:07 <shamail> Yes
22:59:42 <krotscheck> #action krotscheck: Find a good place to start summarizing SDK info, like a landing page.
22:59:49 <krotscheck> Any last topics in our remaining 20 seconds?
22:59:50 <shamail> There is a Google spreadsheet that was put together by App Eco last year... I wanted to turn that into a rendered page that could be updated by the community
23:00:17 <krotscheck> Thanks everyone!
23:00:22 <krotscheck> #endmeeting