16:01:52 <cdent> #startmeeting api-wg
16:01:53 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 16:01:52 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:54 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
16:01:56 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'api_wg'
16:02:04 <cdent> #chair elmiko etoews edleafe
16:02:05 <openstack> Current chairs: cdent edleafe elmiko etoews
16:02:20 <cdent> #link and https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/API-WG#Agenda
16:02:54 <cdent> #topic previous actions items
16:02:59 <cdent> there weren't any
16:03:16 <cdent> #link last week's meeting notes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-08-16.00.html
16:03:25 <cdent> #topic new biz/open mic
16:03:33 <cdent> welcome edleafe to api-wg coreness
16:03:40 <edleafe> \o/
16:03:40 <elmiko> \o/
16:03:43 <scottda> hi
16:03:44 <elmiko> welcome =)
16:03:49 <cdent> you've been added to the gerrit group and also made a member of some launchpad groups
16:04:04 <cdent> in the process I made everyone who is core an admin in the launchpad groups
16:04:47 <cdent> Anyone else have some new business they'd like to bring up? Or continuing business?
16:05:32 <cdent> okay then
16:05:36 <cdent> #topic guidelines
16:05:51 <cdent> there are no new guidelines, the capabilities guidelines continues slowly but surely
16:05:57 <cdent> and this one is ready to merge
16:06:09 <cdent> #link clarify 404 v 400: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/405515/
16:06:16 <edleafe> still not thrilled with the cap guideline
16:06:33 <cdent> me neither, but it is hard to articulate why
16:06:48 <edleafe> it is a mish-mash of several things
16:07:08 <edleafe> policy, authorization, cloud hardware
16:07:49 <edleafe> maybe quotas, too
16:08:43 <cdent> I left a comment earlier today that I thought some of it could be accomplished by having better representations on instances of resources and where that was the case capabilities was not the answer
16:09:13 <cdent> #link capabilities proposal: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/386555/
16:09:29 <elmiko> ty
16:12:00 <cdent> just noticed a new proposal/fix from edleafe
16:12:15 <cdent> #link tidy up capitalization rules: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/411391/
16:12:22 <edleafe> yes, getting a bit pedantic here
16:12:43 <edleafe> nothing of substance
16:12:55 <cdent> I went to fast approve it but then decided not to, thinking it was one of those things where everyone would want to get their oar in first
16:13:18 <edleafe> just noticed it when looking at the bugs for boolean and state/status, since it was the line above :)
16:13:39 * cdent nods
16:13:40 <edleafe> Sure, everyone grab a paintbrush!
16:13:46 <edleafe> :)
16:15:07 <cdent> anyone have anything further to say about capabilities? I rather think it is going to be a tough one as the history of desire behind the functionality is long
16:15:32 <elmiko> only that it seems like a vibrant discussion
16:15:44 <elmiko> ;)
16:15:46 <cdent> tru dat
16:16:10 <edleafe> It feels premature. There is no real consensus on what 'capabilities' means to projects
16:16:41 <edleafe> We should really know what it is we are talking about before trying to write guidelines that apply to everyone
16:16:52 <cdent> indeed
16:16:57 <elmiko> that seems entirely too sensisble
16:17:11 <edleafe> elmiko: sorry, then I must have mis-typed :)
16:17:30 <elmiko> haha
16:18:37 <cdent> This stuff showed up in the cross-project-spec world in the past and has moved to the api-wg from there, presumably because there are at least some people who think is mature/required enough to need to move
16:18:57 <cdent> which I agree probably indicates that there are widely varying degrees of understanding
16:20:20 <cdent> may haps we should more explicitly invite participation (by linking from the sardonic introductory paragraph of the newsletter?)?
16:20:37 <edleafe> cdent: sure, couldn't hurt
16:20:51 <elmiko> +1
16:21:02 <edleafe> although a lack of response might be more related to holiday timing than lack of interest
16:21:12 <elmiko> good point
16:21:13 <cdent> #action (whoever newsletters) agitate for more action on capabilities in newletter
16:21:23 <cdent> it's been under review for several weeks
16:23:31 <cdent> #topic bug review
16:23:32 <cdent> #link https://github.com/openstack/api-wg/blame/384803a489af7ccdab59a2b52f6fa2c3e5db76c2/guidelines/naming.rst#L37-L39
16:23:45 <cdent> "Start discussion on the naming of boolean and state/status "
16:23:49 * cdent looks at edleafe
16:24:12 <edleafe> Yeah, I was looking through the bugs and thought it would be good to get everyone's feelings on these
16:24:26 <edleafe> Or I could put up a strawman for you to beat up
16:24:55 <cdent> did the early days already gather the status quo?
16:26:06 <edleafe> cdent: you mean survey how they are currently implemented?
16:27:10 <cdent> yeah, I seem to recall (mostly before my time) that there was a period of data gathering
16:27:16 <cdent> on the state of the art
16:27:28 <cdent> so I wondered if we already know what the norm is for booleans
16:27:33 <elmiko> yeah, those studies have been pretty revealing and helpful in the past
16:27:56 <elmiko> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/API_Working_Group/Current_Design
16:28:56 <edleafe> I'm not aware of any for boolean
16:29:55 <cdent> here's state and status: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/API_Working_Group/Current_Design/State_vs_Status
16:30:13 <cdent> (probably out of date)
16:31:20 <edleafe> 'state' seems more limited in usage
16:31:38 <edleafe> semantically, not just in those survey numbers
16:32:31 <cdent> Can someone explain (just for the record and for my own clarity) the goal on providing guidance on these sorts of things? Presumably consistency when reused across service apis?
16:32:55 <elmiko> that was my impression
16:33:11 <edleafe> cdent: yeah, that's the idea.
16:33:12 <elmiko> consistency, but also an attempt to provide /limited/ sanity
16:33:44 <elmiko> that last part only really becomes an issue if we can get to the guideline before everyone has an impl though
16:33:45 <cdent> Part of the reason I ask is because to some extent that aspect of guidance has kind of ended up playing second fiddle to "make sure you follow the HTTP spec".
16:33:45 <edleafe> When developing an SDK for the APIs, there were many such "why is it A here, but B there?" moments
16:34:37 * cdent nods
16:34:44 <edleafe> cdent: I think the value in having these sorts of things is to help settle arguments over stuff before it descends to bikeshedding
16:34:56 <cdent> blue
16:34:58 <cdent> of course
16:35:12 <cdent> except on every other tuesday
16:35:23 <edleafe> So how does this sound: I'll do some quick checking, and then put up strawmen as a first pass
16:35:35 <cdent> If you have the cycles that's awesome
16:35:35 <elmiko> +1
16:36:02 <cdent> #action edleafe to provide strawmen on booleans and state/status
16:36:25 <edleafe> damn, I had just about finished typing that exact #action when yours appeared
16:36:30 * edleafe has to type faster
16:36:37 <cdent> any other bug topics?
16:37:19 <cdent> #topic weekly newsletter
16:37:33 <cdent> #link newsletter https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-newsletter
16:40:00 <edleafe> I promised no such thing!
16:40:43 <elmiko> haha
16:41:43 <cdent> edleafe: are you red?
16:42:01 <edleafe> yes - isn't my name showing up?
16:42:35 <cdent> new guidelines has historically meant "stuff that was merged recently" (and I've just merged the 404 v 400 thing). The idea being that it's not really until it has merged
16:43:02 <cdent> (the chat was in the way)
16:43:19 <edleafe> cdent: ah, sorry
16:43:44 * edleafe was working with a different definition of 'new'
16:47:03 <cdent> yeah, I had the same confusion
16:47:32 * cdent tunes up the title slightly
16:49:33 <cdent> anyone have anything to add to newsletter? or edits to fix my typos?
16:52:37 <cdent> good add edleafe
16:52:57 <elmiko> lgtm
16:53:15 <cdent> any last words from anyone?
16:53:15 <edleafe> agreed
16:53:27 <edleafe> I'm off after Friday for the rest of December
16:53:38 <elmiko> have a good holiday to all =)
16:53:44 <edleafe> cheers!
16:54:35 <cdent> next two meetings are cancelled, back in biz in january
16:54:48 <cdent> thanks everyone for a good year of api stuff
16:55:02 <edleafe> Hear hear!
16:55:23 <elmiko> \o/
16:55:30 <cdent> #endmeeting