Thursday, 2021-09-09

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opendevreviewGhanshyam proposed openstack/governance master: Add some PTLs missing irc nick name  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80789714:41
opendevreviewGhanshyam proposed openstack/governance master: Add Puppet OpenStack project IRC channel name  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80790014:41
gmannspotz: ianychoi[m] can we merge this so that we can proceed on governance updates https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/80591814:42
spotzgmann: wee can merge let me log in14:56
gmannspotz: thanks 14:57
spotzdone14:57
gmanntc-members: meeting time (on IRC) 14:59
gmann#startmeeting tc15:00
opendevmeetMeeting started Thu Sep  9 15:00:04 2021 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is gmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:00
opendevmeetUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
opendevmeetThe meeting name has been set to 'tc'15:00
diablo_rojoo/15:00
gmann#topic Roll call15:00
spotz\o/15:00
dansmitho/15:00
gmanno/15:00
belmoreirao/15:00
yoctozepto\o/15:00
jungleboyjo/15:00
gmanntoday agenda #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee#Agenda_Suggestions15:01
gmannlet's start15:01
gmann#topic Follow up on past action items15:01
gmannricolin to reach out to Adjutant previous PTL and team15:01
ricolino/15:01
gmannwe have PTL response and confirmation too. thanks ricolin 15:02
gmannmnaser add two level project accepting criteria in PTG etherpad15:02
gmannthat is also done, 15:02
gmann#topic Gate health check (dansmith/yoctozepto)15:02
dansmithI've been seeing a lot of nova fail lately,15:02
gmanndansmith: yoctozepto go ahead for gate news15:02
dansmithwhich I think is related to a secondary fix to placement after the consumer types thing15:03
dansmithI need to follow up and see if that is getting reviewed15:03
gmannok15:03
yoctozeptoyeah, I have heard about nova having trouble15:03
dansmithother than that I don't know of anything burning15:03
yoctozeptobut nothing else15:03
funginova is often the canary in openstack's coalmine15:04
yoctozepto(consistent reporting ++)15:04
gmannthere are psycopg2 import error, i saw in many tempest plugins and tempest gate. but all failing plugins are x/ namespace and now excluded from tempest sanity job until they are fixed15:04
yoctozeptoI wonder if there are current prod deploys on potsgres15:05
yoctozeptopostgres*15:05
yoctozeptoI would bet no15:05
gmannmay be, I have not debugged those yet15:05
fungiit would be good to get any of those x/ namespace repos which are abandoned more properly cleaned up, if we have ways to get in touch with their former maintainers to confirm15:05
yoctozepto(current meaning ussuri+)15:05
gmannsure15:06
gmannany other news/udpates?15:06
gmann#topic Xena Tracker15:06
gmann#link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-xena-tracker15:06
opendevreviewMerged openstack/election master: Update README for correct location and close out Yoga election  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/80591815:06
gmannlet's go through the remaining items in tracker15:06
gmannfor Audit and finish the previous cycle pending community-wide goal work15:07
gmannI pushed all remaining patches for contribution guide and only 3-4 remaining to merge. this is all done15:07
gmannReview the tags for usefulness and cleanup.  Based on what left, make a decision on whether to continue the tag framework based or not.15:08
gmannyoctozepto: jungleboyj ^^15:08
jungleboyj:-)15:08
yoctozeptoyeah, I have worked on that this week15:08
gmannI think we have separate topic on this.15:08
gmanngreat15:08
yoctozeptowe have15:08
gmannlet's discuss in that, thakns 15:08
gmannthanks 15:08
gmannGetting projects to broadast out/mentor15:08
jungleboyj++15:08
gmannspotz: belmoreira ^^15:08
spotzI'll work with belmoreira about ours next week15:08
belmoreira+115:09
gmanngreat, thanks 15:09
gmannStable core team process change15:09
gmannjungleboyj: mnaser ^^15:09
spotzI have it all together just need to write it up, get emails, etc15:09
gmannspotz: +115:09
gmannspotz: belmoreira please update in etherpad too once you send15:09
spotzwill do15:10
gmannthanks 15:10
gmannback to 'Stable core team process change'15:10
gmannthis is important one15:11
gmannmnaser: jungleboyj please let me know if something is up or you are planning to15:11
jungleboyjmnaser:  Haven't gotten to that one yet.15:11
gmannok, let's check later. I think mnaser mentioned he will push something soon15:12
gmann'Project Health checks'15:13
gmannricolin: belmoreira ^^15:13
gmannthis is one of the things to remove the TC liaison things. 15:13
jungleboyjgmann:  Right, he was planning to do something so that is why I hadn't done anything.15:13
gmannjungleboyj: ack. thanks 15:13
gmannbut for Yoga, I think we need to continue TC liaison and keep discussing in Yoga PTG or if we cna have project health check framework up.15:14
belmoreira_sorry, got disconnected15:14
ricolingmann, sorry didn't got time to work on it last week15:14
ricolinwill make something next week15:15
gmannnp, please update etherpad once done. 15:15
ricolinNP15:15
gmannricolin: belmoreira_ I think if we can have something up before PTG then it will be good to discuss about TC liaison still needed or not15:15
gmannthanks15:15
jungleboyjAgreed.15:16
belmoreira_sure15:16
gmann#topic Leaderless projects15:16
diablo_rojoMakes sense to me. 15:16
gmann#link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/yoga-leaderless15:16
yoctozepto\o/ no leaderless projects \o/15:16
gmannnow PTL election are also closed15:16
diablo_rojoWoohoo!15:16
gmannand we found all leaders also for leaderless 15:16
yoctozeptowhich is good but some cases are rather unhealthy15:17
spotzwoohoo15:17
yoctozeptowe will discuss more on quality during ptg15:17
gmannyeah, missing deadline cases are something we should discuss and how to improve those15:17
jungleboyj\o/15:17
diablo_rojoYeah I am still a little.. worried about zun15:17
yoctozepto(tbh, I like adopting the CNCF approach with different maturity levels)15:18
jungleboyjYeah, that is a good topic to discuss further.15:18
gmannyeah15:18
diablo_rojoFor example?15:18
yoctozeptodiablo_rojo: oh, yes, you were missing from our call, apologies :-)15:18
gmannL 78 https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-yoga-ptg15:19
gmannlet's discuss in PTG which will directly related to these leaderless projects every cycle. 15:19
diablo_rojoyoctozepto, yeah I was.15:20
diablo_rojoAnd the notes are much harder to read than meeting logs. 15:20
gmannrecording ? :)15:21
yoctozeptoyeah, the experience was great but the trace was miserable except for the recording15:21
diablo_rojoYeah I havent found the time/attention span to listen to the recording yet.15:21
gmannanyways we have separate topic on that, let's discuss that time15:21
yoctozeptoanyhow, the link from gmann should clarify enough for now15:21
yoctozepto++15:21
spotzThey were at least semi-complete. For te monthly video RDO call oouor notes are not great15:21
gmannanything else on this topic, leaderless projects ?15:22
diablo_rojoNope.15:22
gmann#topic New project application: 'Venus15:22
gmann#link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80482415:22
gmannthis is good to merge, but i will open it until our meeting in case any one want to comment/vote15:22
yoctozeptountil which meeting?15:23
yoctozeptoyou mean ptg?15:23
gmannthis meeting :)15:23
yoctozeptohaha, ok15:23
gmannsorry for unclear 15:23
gmann#topic Next step on pain points from projects/SIGs/pop-up (ricolin)15:23
gmannricolin: anything to discuss on this  further or we take it in PTG as disucssed ?15:24
ricolinI think we should take this to PTG15:24
gmanncool.15:24
ricolinwill collect some feedback before PTG15:24
gmannricolin: so I will remove it from next week meeting agenda ?15:24
ricolingmann, +115:25
gmannsounds good. 15:25
diablo_rojoThat works. 15:25
yoctozeptosounds good to me as well15:25
gmann#action gmann to remove projects pain points from next weekly meeting agenda 15:25
gmann#topic TC tags analysis15:25
gmann#link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18GXibtdQnSkIwA7DsBvX9dPwbw9JH76AhhRUknzBb3Q/edit15:25
gmannyoctozepto: go ahead15:25
yoctozeptoso I have finally sat down to this to summarise the current usage of tags15:26
yoctozeptothe goal is to determine which (if any) are useful and whether we want to continue this framework15:26
jungleboyjyoctozepto:  Thank you.  Looks good.15:26
yoctozeptojungleboyj: thanks :-)15:27
yoctozeptothe spreadsheet starts with a simple yes/no table per project15:27
yoctozeptothere are notes in the other tabs15:27
gmannand only 22 projects care of these and rest are not interested or not eligible 15:27
yoctozeptoone point to note this is simplified to projects and not deliverables (while tags are technically per deliverable)15:27
yoctozeptoyes15:27
gmannok15:28
yoctozeptoand it does not seem overly clean whether the proper tags are applied15:28
yoctozeptoalso, some seem to overpromise what the tag means15:28
gmannyoctozepto: thanks, how we can get their usage data/value too? who use them and if they are valuable for them ?15:28
yoctozepto(though this was obviously discovered by accident)15:28
fungiright, that distinction becomes rather important for the vulnerability:managed tag, for example... not all deliverables for a given team have vmt oversight15:28
jungleboyjHave we used the maintenance-mode tag in recent history?15:29
gmannfungi: and those team (not vmt tag) does not have/reported security bugs ?15:29
diablo_rojojungleboyj, seems like not lol15:30
fungigmann: the deliverables without vulnerability:managed are expected to have their vulnerability reports handled directly by the team who maintains that deliverable (though the vmt often helps out)15:30
gmannjungleboyj: not sure, hope it is not documentation issue like yoctozepto fixed for standalone tag15:30
yoctozeptogmann: hard to tell; I was thinking about just reaching out to the community via the mailing list BUT the usual problem arises - operators don't read it that often but the tags are meant to be for them15:30
yoctozeptojungleboyj, gmann, diablo_rojo: it was used15:30
gmannfungi: i see. 15:30
yoctozeptosee in legacy projects15:31
jungleboyjyoctozepto:  Ok, I thought it was used at one point but it appears we have forgotten about it.15:31
yoctozeptogmann: continuing on value: based on my own experience - operators don't even know this thing exists15:31
diablo_rojoyoctozepto, but not on current ones?15:31
yoctozeptodiablo_rojo: nope, 0 as the table says15:31
yoctozeptothe table is correct except for if my mouse clicked a number away so it could end up in a close-by column :D15:32
diablo_rojoyoctozepto, right that's what I recalled. I wonder if it *ever* has been used, or what the last project was.15:32
gmannyoctozepto: yeah, may be including it in user survey or ask in PTG ?15:32
yoctozeptoI already fixed one issue like that; need to learn mouse usage; or rather touchpad15:32
fungiwhat's really fun is that the entire tags concept was started based on feedback from operators, and they were expected to drive a lot of it15:32
gmannyoctozepto: jungleboyj we have this topic in PTG also right?15:32
yoctozeptodiablo_rojo: yeah, I said that project is in legacy15:32
yoctozeptoforgot the name15:32
opendevreviewMerged openstack/governance master: Update projects.yaml for Yoga PTLs  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80785815:33
yoctozeptofungi: yeah, I know the drill15:33
yoctozeptogmann: PTG yes we have15:33
jungleboyjI also think that people don't even know about this.15:33
gmannyoctozepto: let's get the usage data also from operator on ML and we will see if any response on that.15:33
yoctozeptogmann: user survey is too slow to get this info I think15:33
gmannyoctozepto: agree, I think we might be able to add in next year one15:33
yoctozeptook, then I send a respective mail now that we have some baseline understanding15:33
diablo_rojoyoctozepto, oh yeah I missed that sorry. Makes sense. 15:33
dansmithfungi: but that was "to determine which projects we might want to deploy" or "choose between two alternatives" right?15:34
gmannperfect, and we can discuss both data usage/projects-applying it PTG 15:34
dansmithbasically not deploying a project that isn't going to be stable long-term, or manage vulnerabilities, or whatever15:34
yoctozeptogmann: there are some quality issues with the tags and I worry posting such a question to the survey might be suggesting they are golden standard15:34
gmann#action yoctozepto to send email to openstack-discuss about getting usage data of TC tags15:34
dansmithI think the goal was noble, but it's just not really a thing now15:34
jungleboyjTrue.15:35
yoctozeptodansmith: yeah, the "market" worked differently15:35
fungidansmith: yes15:35
gmannbelmoreira_: how about in CERN, do you guys consider/check those ?15:36
fungii would argue the operators interested in using tags to determine whether they wanted to run certain services never followed through15:36
dansmithfungi: agree15:36
jungleboyjfungi: agree15:36
yoctozepto++15:36
yoctozeptook, so the mail will be mostly a formality I guess :P15:36
yoctozeptobut will do nonetheless15:37
belmoreira_well, honestly tags don't say much to make a decision to run a service15:37
gmannyoctozepto: not sure, may be you get answers :)15:37
fungiand not to be cynical, but sometimes problems are raised more to serve as an excuse for why something is hard or isn't being done, and solving that problem inconveniently takes away the excuse15:37
jungleboyjyoctozepto:  Will be interesting.15:37
yoctozeptogmann: you are always such an optimist! :D15:37
gmannyoctozepto: heh15:37
gmannanyways, let's go with the ML and then we can decide in PTG about it15:38
gmannthanks yoctozepto for getting it started 15:38
jungleboyj++15:38
yoctozeptook, then action is here and the point can be removed from the agenda15:38
gmannanything else on this ? I will keep it for next meeting too at least if any response on ML15:38
yoctozeptoah, ok15:38
yoctozepto(optimist)15:38
gmannyoctozepto: let's keep it in case any more response. 15:38
gmann:P15:38
gmannok moving next ?15:39
yoctozeptoI agree15:39
gmann#topic TC Video call feedback & plan15:39
jungleboyjOnward and Upward15:39
gmannwe had our first video call last week.15:40
gmannIt definitely need more improvement  15:40
diablo_rojoSpeaking from the standpoint of someone that missed it... not a fan lol. 15:40
gmannsome feedback are here #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-video-meeting-feedback15:40
jungleboyj:-)15:40
gmannaudio and network issue came up but i think we can improve those. 15:40
gmanni will use headphone next time :)15:41
jungleboyjmnaser:  Needs to stay at hotels with better wifi.  ;-)15:41
spotzhehe15:41
gmannas we discussed, we will continue it until PTG and then we will take call to continue it or not15:41
fungithe primary reason google meet was recommended for that, as i understood, was because of its stellar transcription capability. where's the transcript from it?15:41
gmannfor that, two open question 1. Where we should store the recording ?15:42
spotzI don't think it's a bad idea, I think it's a question of whether the transcripts were good enough15:42
dansmithfungi: it was posted. it's terrible, but I also think it's the best in class15:42
spotzhehe15:42
fungigot it. so long as it's useful/usable i guess15:42
gmannyeah, not perfect but not so bad too15:42
yoctozeptodiablo_rojo: xD but I can understand15:42
gmannso on recording location, i kept it in my google drive for now but I might not have much space there as i do not have paid plan. 15:43
spotzgmann: What about in the governance repo?15:43
jungleboyjCan you upload it to Youtube?15:43
yoctozeptofungi: yeah, it is enough to understand the gist I guess15:43
diablo_rojogoogle meet isn't accessible in china... so it excludes community members that may want to join15:43
spotzThat's good too, then the logs in repo?15:43
gmannjungleboyj: we need to do in foundation channel if we want it on youtube 15:44
jungleboyjThat is where we put all our Cinder meetings ... we have a Cinder channel though.15:44
gmanndiablo_rojo: yeah but there is no one join TC meeting from china, ricolin can access it as he mentioned/did15:44
diablo_rojojungleboyj, that wasn't hard to setup though15:44
diablo_rojoTrue, there are ways around the firewall gmann but I don't think we should force that on community members. 15:45
gmannok, let me check to store in repo15:45
clarkbThere are varying reports of meetpad accessibility from china too. I suspect that any non blessed conferencing tools have difficulty. Zoom puts servers in china to get the go ahead aiui15:45
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gmannI heard zoom has same issue like google meet15:45
ricolingmann, yep, it's also consider unstable tools IMO15:46
diablo_rojoI don't thing we should add more barriers to accessibility for a part of our community. 15:46
gmannand it is same for IRC access too15:46
clarkbah ok the thing I found said "Mainland users need to provide a phone number to verify their identity to join the meeting." but that may not be accurate or reflect service viablity15:46
spotzricolin: zoom is considered unstable?15:47
ricolinyep, for some company network, can't really have stable zoom access from China15:47
fungifrom what i understand, zoom is usable in mainland china as long as people in china connect to the zoom servers in china, since the government has access to monitor those directly for discussions they disapprove of15:47
gmanndiablo_rojo: definitely, that is why we are doing it monthly and trying it until PTG. and then in PTG we will take final call based on feedback  15:47
spotzSo we'rre basically damned if we do or damned if we don't with either option15:47
ricolinand all zoom account from China can't create Zoom meeting room, but that's different15:48
gmannyeah15:48
yoctozeptooh boy15:48
gmannok, so now continuing on google meet, i need someone help having paid account15:49
gmannfree version does not allow recording/transcript 15:49
clarkbricolin: fwiw I/opendev would probably find it useful if we can get more info on whether or not meetpad works for individuals in china15:49
clarkbas we haven't had a very concrete response to that it has all been third hand15:50
fungiricolin: also with clarity around whether it's testing from home connections vs work connections15:50
spotzI can do it through RedHat, we already. have a 'room' for the Monthly RDO video meeting so the URL is out there15:50
ricolinmaybe you can ping horace from China? I ping him to test tools too :)15:50
ricolinclarkb, ^^^15:50
jungleboyjricolin: ++15:50
fungiyeah, we've been getting some help from horace too15:50
clarkbyup good idea, he tends to be busy though :)15:50
gmannspotz: perfect, thanks. I will get in touch with you for next meeting setup15:51
clarkbanyway I don't need to derail the TCs decisions on conferencing15:51
gmannclarkb: but that is good if we can get meetpad as better solution :)15:51
spotzIt's good if we can get the most accessible and useable solutioon:)15:51
gmanngetting more feedback and then choose better (none is best though) one in PTG15:51
gmannyeah15:52
diablo_rojoI would feel more comfortable with meetpad than google meet. 15:52
jungleboyjIf you guys have trouble getting Horace to help I know a few people in China who could help.15:52
fungiprobably our biggest missing feature in meetpad right now is the lack of server-side recording/publishing15:52
fungi(jitsi-meet has options for that but we haven't looked into setting them up)15:52
jungleboyjI probably could test it myself in fact.  Not sure that doing it through VPN is the best approach though.15:53
gmannok15:53
gmann#action gmann to add folder or something to store the meeting recording/transcript in governance repo15:53
gmann#action spotz to help in google meet setup for next meeting from RDO account.15:54
gmannanything else on this topic ?15:54
diablo_rojoNope. 15:54
gmann#topic Open Reviews15:54
gmann#link https://review.opendev.org/q/projects:openstack/governance+is:open15:55
spotzhttps://meet.google.com/uzo-tfkt-top :)15:55
gmannwe have lot of open patches, please review if you have not done yet15:55
gmannspotz: thanks, 15:55
gmannthat is all from me today, anything else form anyone ?15:55
gmann*from15:55
gmannone last thing.15:56
yoctozeptonothing from me15:56
diablo_rojoNothing from me15:56
gmannwe have chair and vice chair nomination, please add your if you are interested or vote on them 15:56
gmann#link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80716315:57
gmann#link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80717815:57
gmannok, thanks all for joining. 15:57
gmann#endmeeting15:57
opendevmeetMeeting ended Thu Sep  9 15:57:35 2021 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:57
opendevmeetMinutes:        https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-09-09-15.00.html15:57
opendevmeetMinutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-09-09-15.00.txt15:57
opendevmeetLog:            https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2021/tc.2021-09-09-15.00.log.html15:57
yoctozeptothanks gmann15:57
jungleboyjThank you!15:57
dansmithany chance we could just vote for gmann's lifetime appointment as chair? :)15:57
jungleboyj:-)15:57
gmanndansmith: hehe :) good joke, I am not that good chair, just trying 15:58
diablo_rojothanks gmann!15:58
dansmithgmann: I would +315:59
yoctozeptogmann: that means you must understand you are better than you think16:00
spotzThanks gmann16:00
gmannyoctozepto: dansmith thanks for the compliment :) 16:02
opendevreviewMerged openstack/governance master: Venus official project status  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/80482416:51
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